1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry and 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy D. Wilson. Okay, I'm gonna get it out 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: of the way before we get into Caroline's story, because 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: if you listen to Wednesday's episode, you might still be 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: going Jim excuse. Carrie Fisher wrote the Mada Harry episode 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: of Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, and in it that is 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: Indiana Jones's first sexual experience. WHOA, So I don't know 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: if I've seen all of that show. I remember watching 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: it when it was on, and I remember being really 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: disappointed when it wasn't on anymore. But I also like 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: there's a void in my mind of how much of 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: it have I actually seen? Well, and like not everything 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: sticks right, so it's easy to forget stuff. But yes, yeah, 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: that's a good episode. Obviously plague asked and loose with 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: historical fact. But yeah, I also don't remember this episode 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: in any way. So either I saw, I mean more 18 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: and more of my life, I have no recollection of 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: it anyway. Right, it comes to things from long ago, yeah, 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: she I. Carrie Fisher talked about having having written that 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: episode a few times, like when she would do interviews 22 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: and stuff, and it's pretty interesting and fun. But to 23 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: move to Caroline, which is, you know a little more serious. Yeah, 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: here is what I find so utterly. I don't know 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: if it's compelling, but really a really interesting aspect of 26 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: Caroline's story that has not really talked about much. Right, Obviously, 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: her husband was horrible. Yeah, he is one of the 28 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: easier villains we've had. There's like, not really anything redeeming 29 00:01:51,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: about him. Yeah, we don't swear on the show, but 30 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: there was a moment in the outline that I was 31 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: just I wanted to say a lot of very bad words, 32 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: and it was I mean it was early on. Oh yeah, 33 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: I was just yeah, monster, he was an absolute monster. 34 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: But there's an interesting thing. Historian Claire Tommelin wrote, She's 35 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: written a lot of things, but she in writing about Caroline, 36 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: she makes a really interesting point, which is that she 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: definitely seems to side on the element of like, Caroline 38 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: was not having affairs with anybody because her own sexual 39 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: experiences in her marriage were so bad obviously that she 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to have anything to do with men romantically 41 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: at all, which is an interesting take on it. It 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. Again, we don't really know 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: for sure, but there's another aspect to the affair rumors 44 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: with Caroline and Melbourne that make me think, person these 45 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: are two people that would not have wanted to have 46 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: an affair because Lord Melbourne had already been involved in 47 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: a pretty embarrassing affair scandal not of his but of 48 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: his wife. And if you listen to Criminalia you know 49 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: this story. But Lady Caroline Lamb had a pretty public 50 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: affair with Lord Byron while she was married to Lord Melbourne. Okay, 51 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm laughing because I'm like, how'd Byron get in this? Okay, 52 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: She's everywhere everywhere Romanson whoever he can, and he, I mean, 53 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: it was very very torrid and passionate. And then he 54 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: was tired of her and moved on. And then she 55 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: kind of stalked him for a long time and did 56 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: some very creepy things in that enterprise. But like when 57 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: he broke up with her, Lord Melbourne so completely scantalized, 58 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: and also like he took Lady Caroline to Ireland on 59 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: a vacation though because she was such a mess at 60 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: her boyfriend having broken up with her. That her husband 61 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: was like, let's just get you some rest. He probably 62 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: would not have wanted anything to do with any kind 63 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: of scandal after that, And so that's another thing that 64 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: kind of supports the like, no, they were probably just 65 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: good friends. Yeah, And I mentioned that there were letters 66 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: that would be a lot more potentially damaging to have 67 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: introduced during their court case. But like, it's interesting because 68 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: if you if you read them with the bias of 69 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: presuming that they had a sexual relationship, yes they can 70 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: be read as very scandalous, but if you think about 71 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: it from the other point of view of like they 72 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: were just very close friends and he was a mentor 73 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: to her, then they feel like a very sweet, you know, 74 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: incredibly loving and endearing thing. However someone wants to interpret 75 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: it is how they're going to interpret it. There this 76 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: was such an upsetting thing to read about, yeah, because 77 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean, domestic violence is always hard 78 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: to read about, obviously, and it is still a problem 79 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: that men can abuse women. It goes the other way 80 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: at times, but predominantly that's how it plays out, and 81 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: people look the other way or they don't get involved. 82 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: And in this case, like there were a lot of 83 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: witnesses to this person beating a pregnant woman, burning a 84 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: pregnant woman, being so violent he had to be restrained 85 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: so she could run away, and like there was nothing 86 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: to help her. Yeah. I think that infinite with a 87 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: tea kettle was what had made me almost just have 88 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: it like a stream of absentities onto the podcast. Right, 89 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: this is when it's good that there's not a time machine, 90 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: because I would be very, very prone to violence. Yeah, 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: which is not great, but like, yeah, well, and today 92 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: the dynamics of abusive relationships mean that it can be 93 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: really hard for somebody who is being abused to get out. 94 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: And she had so little legal recourse for anything that 95 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: I can barely even imagine, like being in such an 96 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: impossible situation, and then also to have her children taken 97 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: away and just to have no, no real way. That 98 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: was really when my big in the research phase, my 99 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: big expletive explosion happened, when it was like, oh, this 100 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: law is about to be passed that gives her more rights. 101 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: I'm moving the kids to another country. Right, you deserve 102 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: bad things to happen to you at that point, yes, 103 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: And then I mean for it to play out exactly 104 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: as she would have always feared that there wasn't anybody 105 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: caring for her kids enough, and one of them died 106 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: as a consequence. Right, There are accounts that indicate that, 107 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: and they weren't first first person accounts, so they're like interpreted. 108 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: So I didn't want to include them. But that suggests that, 109 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: like William was very obviously sick and suffering for like 110 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: a week before George got him any help. The anger, 111 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: the anger because I just I don't, okay, hate your 112 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: wife whatever. That's horrible, but like it is its own thing. 113 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: But then like to treat your kids that way as 114 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: a whole other problem, right, and it's just awful, Like, 115 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: don't don't hate your wife. I'm not saying anything he 116 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: did do his wife is okay by any means, just like, 117 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: but like there's a whole different dynamic in play as 118 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: a parent that like, I I know people mistreat their children, 119 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: but like that's I can't imagine. Again, I'm not a 120 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: kids person, and I cannot imagine watching a child suffer 121 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: for a week and be like I we'll see no, 122 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: So he's a monster, is the short version. It's interesting 123 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: to know. I when I was reading about it, I 124 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: had heard of Caroline Norton before, and I knew that 125 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: she advocated for divorce, but I did not realize until 126 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: I was doing this work that she did all that 127 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: advocacy knowing it would never help her if they changed 128 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: the law right, And that shifted my gears on how 129 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: I perceived some of her work after that, where I 130 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this isn't going to help her at all. 131 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: She's just recognizing that this is a problem. Yeah. Yeah. 132 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: It's often kind of funny to me that she has 133 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: lauded as like a great feminist forerunner, and I'm like, kinda, 134 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: I remember taking I mean, this has been so years ago, 135 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: like half my life ago at this point, but like 136 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: I remember taking courses in college, like Women Studies one 137 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: oh one, and there was a like women Women in 138 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: Literature course, and we talked about the idea of like 139 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: proto feminism and how like a lot of historical figures 140 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: like we can't really characterize as feminist because that concept, 141 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: like if you wanted to find feminist really broadly, sure, 142 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: but like that concept didn't really exist, and a lot 143 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: of individual aspects of a person's advocacy like could be 144 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: seen as anti feminist today. But like given the context 145 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: when they were living and doing their work, We're like 146 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: really groundbreaking. Yeah, yeah, her. The part that gets me 147 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: is like her whole like, oh no, no, I'm not 148 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: saying women are equal to heavens, No, that's ridiculous. No, 149 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: oh gracious no. So I'm like, oh, Caroline, so close. 150 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: But it does say a lot that she was able 151 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: to use her position even after I mean, she had 152 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: every right, after the way that she was treated by 153 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: the public and particularly social circles, to just be like, um, 154 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: you all suck, I'm out of Harry, You're on your own. 155 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go live quietly and write, and instead she 156 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: kind of put herself out there a lot, which is interesting. Um, 157 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, obviously not intersectional feminism now, and obviously you know, 158 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: very much in the heteronormative man woman approach to marriage, 159 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: but still pretty pretty interesting though to me that she 160 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: changed really not one, but two significant laws that still 161 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: had a long way to go after both of those, 162 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: but that those were both big steps forward. So it's 163 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: a bad legacy. Like I said, I'm gonna go visit 164 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: her blue plaque in a couple of weeks because I 165 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: will be in London. Yeah, I'm gonna hunt it down. 166 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm excited for your trip. I already have a local 167 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: ready to point out it for me. Go there, it 168 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: is right there. Now, let's go to a pub which something. Yea, 169 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: Hopefully we will do some fun stuff soon. Yeah, I'm sorry, 170 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: I keep doing really dark stuff. I don't I don't 171 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: know why those are the ones that I keep fixating on. 172 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: I feel like we had a really long stretch of 173 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: like our early early pandemic years, not comfort episodes, but 174 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: like everyone was going through a lot, and I think 175 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: you and I both felt like there was a cap 176 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: on what our minds could handle. And like now, the 177 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: like COVID still exists, but the level of like continual 178 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: stress and chaos is a little bit different for a 179 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: lot of people. And that's like freed up a few 180 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: brain cycles to do some other things with. Yes, although 181 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: I promise I have some light plans ahead. Yeah about murder. No, 182 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm kidding, I'm I'm kidding, But yeah, thanks for sticking 183 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: with us through all the dark stuff, all of the 184 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: criminal cases. We'll be right back here again tomorrow with 185 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: a classic and then next week with new stuff, and 186 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: we hope that your weekend if this is your time 187 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: off is wonderful and restorative, and that you have a 188 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: delightful time. If you don't have time off for the 189 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: next couple of days, I still hope you like get 190 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: some sneaky time to do something fun for yourself, because 191 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: we all need it. It's vital for our happiness. We 192 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: will be right back here, like I said, for you 193 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: tomorrow and beyond. Stuff you missed in History Class is 194 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 195 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 196 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.