WEBVTT - Firefighters Will Be Suing, Getting Sued Over PFAS 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.600 Hey, Parts per Billion listeners, it's David Schultz here. Just 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.000 wanted to let you know that we're going to be 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.240 moving our environmental coverage to another podcast. It's a show 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:09.600 called On the Merits. We did can do a huge 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:11.680 range of legal topics, and now we're gonna be adding 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.120 environmental a lot of that. That also means we won't 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.279 be posting new episodes of Parts for a Billion as much, 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.680 but don't worry, we'll still be putting out great environmental 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.880 episodes on On the Merits. If you're not already, go 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.840 subscribe to On the Merits wherever fine podcasts can be found. Okay, 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:30.600 now on to today's episode. Firefighters are rethinking their relationship 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.000 with p fasts and with the companies that make it. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.559 Today on the podcast, we talk about the liabilities that 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.199 fire departments might face and about why it looks like 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:47.159 firefighters themselves are lowering up. Hello, and welcome back once 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.319 again to Parts per Billion, the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.800 I'm your host, David Schultz. We've talked a lot on 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.200 this podcast about the military's use of p fast and 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.040 why that's been so problematic, But today we're looking at 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.560 the civilian side and talking about fire fighters. Fire departments 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.320 used and still use a lot of p fasts also 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.840 known as forever chemicals, and as you'll learn in a bit, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.680 it's not just in the a triple lef or aqueous 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.480 film forming foam that they spray on fires. As a 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.160 result of this, fire departments might have a significant amount 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.000 of liability. Here in Bloomberg Glower, reporters Andrew Wallander and 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.559 Pat Rizzuto have been examining this emerging legal issue. It'll 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.880 be able to hear from Andrew about the claims individual 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.560 firefighters might file, but first I asked Pat to give 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:30.759 me a sense of what exactly the liability for fire 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.920 departments might look like. Local fire departments are going to 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.560 be affected in different ways, but they're hit by the 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.679 p FAST conundrum in a whole bunch of ways. They've 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.560 used a triple left, that's the p FAST containing firefighting 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.640 foam um for decades because it was simply the most 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:52.120 effective way to put out fires, particularly ones that involved 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.840 fuel or chemicals that burned. So you know, they've spread 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.800 the chemicals around, they've gotten the chemicals into their body 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.760 higher levels than your I, and they're likely to have 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.240 old foam on their shelves and have had it in 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.000 their truck. So they're going to have to clean out 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.880 their own trucks. Maybe if their municipal fire department, they'll 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.240 get some taxpayer dollars to do that, or if they 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.960 are a local rural, you know, volunteer fire department, they're 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:24.160 going to have to have more SPAGHANDI dinners. Yeah. Well, 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.880 and I wanna just briefly belabor what you just said, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.399 because there was a lot there. The firefighters themselves are 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.239 could be sick. The trucks, then the fire stations could 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:39.040 be contaminated. There could be legacy contamination in the water 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.720 near places where they've sprayed this foam. Those are all 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.000 three separate things in the departments have to do with 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:50.280 all of those. Where is the litigation heading here? Um? 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.799 Because I'm wondering who's getting sued? Are are the fire 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.320 departments getting sued? And if so, how are they handling that? Yes, 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.160 they have been sued. Um. I know of one case 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:05.280 in New Jersey where a company that had had a 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.520 fire incident suit the tender fire departments that responded to 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.480 it because they used a triple left. Um. That is 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.720 the case is pending but basically attorneys have told me 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:22.000 that is the future, especially once e p A starts 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.680 regulating two of the common ingredients in a triple left 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:31.280 as hazardous substances under the super fun law, which has 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.480 said it will do this year. So just to make 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.240 sure I understand, this is someone who there was a 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.960 fire that was put out on their property and they're 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.320 suing the fire department. I mean, I don't want to 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.880 belittle this, this claim of action because as we've talked about, 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:49.800 p face is very toxic. But still that's a pretty 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:55.440 remarkable situation. Yeah, it just strikes every unfair chord in 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.920 your body. But yes, they're more and more likely to 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:05.840 do that the tighter these are regulated because they're hugely 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.560 expensive to clean up. So they're going to be looking 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.640 for other people to help pay the dollar. And um, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.400 even if down the road e p A or their 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.119 state you know environmental department you know, closes the eye 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.479 because after all, you were saving lives. Um, exactly, we 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.120 kind of want you to do that. You know, you 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.760 don't win a lot of votes by going after you know, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:36.159 firefighting heroes. Yes. Um, Still, the private companies that have 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.279 to play pay clean up are going to compete looking 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.440 for dollars. Yeah. Um. And then there's another cost that 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.679 we haven't touched on, but it's also going to be expensive, 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.080 which is replacing the foams with something else that works 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.000 really well. I get the sense that the military is 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.800 pretty far along in doing this and sort of saying, hey, 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.760 we've developed new chemicals that are just as good or 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:03.000 almost as good as fast, let's replace those. Is the 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:05.680 is that going to put pressure on fire departments do 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.719 the same thing to replace these chemicals. Absolutely, the Pentagon 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:16.000 did meet Congress's mandate, and it has developed its requirements 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.680 for for suppressants that can put out the types of 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:27.080 incidents that it deals with, planes crashing into piles of 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:33.240 AMMO on land. Um. And it's it's researched the alternatives 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.599 and it says, yes, there are ones that can do 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:40.880 this just as well or cruel close enough. So it's 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.680 it's put out its requirements. Within a couple of months, 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.240 we're going to start seeing it identifying the specific companies 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:53.000 and products that it will purchase. Right. However, Um, you 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.320 have reported on this many many times in your career, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.720 where we replace one toxic chemical with another one, and 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.800 as it turns out, the replacement is also somewhat or 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:08.280 very toxic itself. Are we potentially running into that situation 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:12.640 here where the replacements also have their own issues? Um? 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.680 Quite possibly. On. There is at least one state that 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:21.800 has chosen to provide, at least on a temporary basis, 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.200 fire department with a substitute for the A triple left. 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.640 But the substitute also, according to tests running the European Union, 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:38.279 also has p fas so um, yes, buy or be aware. Um. However, 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.640 that said, and I need to add this caveat. I've 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.440 been told over and over that fire departments care about performance. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.680 They just don't think about safety because they want that 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.400 fire out as quickly as possible. That's what they're focused on. 0:06:54.560 --> 0:07:10.480 Get it out. But let's talk about the safety of 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.960 the firefighters themselves, because they've been using p FAST for 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.080 a long time and the damage has been done here. Uh, Andrew, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.320 you reported that it seems like the Firefighters Union is 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.360 kind of gearing up for a big legal fight over 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.880 p FAST exposure. Um, can you tell me about what 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.200 they're actually doing and why that's significant? Yeah, So this 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.400 this came recently. The International Association of Firefighters announced that 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:41.640 it's partnering with three law firms to help connect its members, 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.640 UH two lawyers who can help them with potential litigation 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.800 over exposure to p fast if they if they've developed 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.800 cancer and one of the cancers that has been linked 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.920 to p FAST. They've had these three law firms now 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.200 they're gonna be working with those members and they're also 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.600 trying to change things on the regulatory side as well, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.320 because as things stand, the nfp A standards for Firefighter 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:11.080 gear currently requires moisture barriers in firefighter gear to be 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.440 UV resistant and p fast is the only thing that 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.240 can meet those requirements. So there's no way right now 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.120 for p fast not to be in firefighters gear. So 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.960 it's worth pointing out. You know, we've talked about on 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:28.320 this podcast and earlier today, we've talked about exposure through 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.920 p fast from spraying foam that contains p FAST, but 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.320 that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about exposure 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.360 through clothes and protective gear that is coated with p fast. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.800 Is that does that pose a different risk to the firefighters? 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.720 It does in some cases. I because not everyone uses 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.600 a triple left foam, not not all firefighters do, but 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.920 many firefighters that are working in cities fighting structural fires. Uh. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.640 They wear what's called turnout gear or bunker gear. UM, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.120 and that that is where there's a concern that is 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.080 p fast and there so there's potentially more exposure to 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.160 a bigger set of people. I want to circle back 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.440 though to something that you said, which is that the 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.280 Firefighters Union is partnering with law firms. UH. That is 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.920 very different than suing. UM. It doesn't sound like the 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.320 Firefighters Union are filing suits. They're just maybe making these 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:27.160 firms available to uh their members. What's the distinction there? 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:30.320 Why is the Firefighters Union not filing suit itself. Yeah, 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.600 that's something I asked the president about President of Kelly 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.200 when I when I spoke with him about this, and UH, 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.600 he said that they're keeping their options open right now. 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.800 So it seems like the door is open for a 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:45.000 potential lawsuit from the Firefighters Union, but at this time 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.640 they're focus more on getting their individual members access to 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.440 filing suit and they're also trying to change those rules 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.880 at the n f P a UM and and put 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.440 the pressure on that way. The main reason why I 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.640 asked about that about the sort of the distinction between 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.360 you know what they're doing is because I know from 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.400 your reporting that this main firefighters Union has a long 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.560 and interesting relationship with p fast makers and with the 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.199 well specifically with the companies that make this gear. Um, 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.040 can you talk a little bit about that. It sounds 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.200 like they've the union has received a lot of money 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.480 from these companies in the past. Right. This was something 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:25.400 we looked back in early one at and UH did 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.079 a dive into the financial records of the International Association 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.480 of Firefighters and found that, uh, yeah, they had received 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.559 almost half a million dollars from gear makers and manufacturers 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.560 for sponsorships and UH donations. And and one of the 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.880 things that really stuck out to me in reporting that 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.880 story was when I was watching a clip of a 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.120 cancer summit at the Firefighters Union had hosted several years ago, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.840 and the president of the union at the time introduced 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.959 the conference by thanking DuPont and some of the manual 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.520 factors it re sponsoring this conference, and and you know, 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.960 given what we know today, it was uh sort of 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.480 a questionable sponsorship for for a summit on on cancer. 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.400 So so shortly certainly after that in in I think 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.120 that story came out in January, but they're already conversations 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:22.160 at the union two break away from these partnerships with 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.720 some of these companies as more was coming out about 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.320 uh P fast and some of the gear well, and 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.480 didn't I think in your reporting you said they went 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.240 even further and that they they ousted the president and 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.880 put in a new president who was sort of had 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:39.080 a much harsher stance toward these companies, right right, So 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.000 there was an election shortly after that as well, um 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:47.079 in in early and um so the president who is 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.200 now the president and Kelly one and he's been very 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.040 adamant about p fast as an issue and kind of 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.000 bringing it to the forefront of the union and trying 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.360 to make this something that the health and safety is 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.760 a is a big focus ultimately. And I want to 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.760 wrap up by sort of asking where you think this 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:08.319 is going. Um you know, I get the sense that 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.040 the I can understand why the Firefighters Union was very 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.520 close with the gear makers because these this protective gear 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.000 is literally life saving, you know, it protects the lives 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.360 of firefighters, but of course it's now we know it's 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:26.200 also potentially toxic. Do you think that this is going 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.560 to change the way that firefighters think about the risks 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.600 and the trade offs that you know, to save lives, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.160 we have to expose ourselves to toxic chemicals, and that 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.040 that mindset may be changing. I think it definitely is. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.800 I mean talking to some of the people who attended 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.719 this conference and and and firefighters, it's something that's very 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.400 much at the forefront of their minds um with with 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.000 the work that they do. And uh, there was a 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.479 moment I wasn't at the training section where this initiative 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:57.640 with the law firms was revealed, but there was there 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.520 was a moment where, you know, someone asked, do you 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.600 know someone who has been affected by cancer in the 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.440 fire service? And everyone's hands went up. And so it's 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:10.600 something that's very very present issue for that. So I 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.839 think there's a lot more attention, a lot more firefighters 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.760 are aware of this issue. Now. What I have noticed 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.679 is there's a real difference in the firefighter response to 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.160 the gear issue versus the firefighting foam. And I think 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.800 you just put your finger on it, David. I mean, 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:32.840 their gear is their lifeboat, it's their submarine. It allows 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.520 them to go into literal hell, it saves their lives, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.520 and they have such a close relationship with their gear 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.480 um that it's a much more emotional and fervorent um 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:55.040 feeling of absolute betrayal. The foam its sprayed away from them. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.320 You know, they know that they were using what they 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.719 were told was the best product out there, and they 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:05.040 do know what work. It's not an an emotional response. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.520 That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about the psychological distinction 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.240 between the foam and the gear. That's your right. It's 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.880 on their person, it's on their body, and they they 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.680 you know, there's a difference there. All right, Well, that 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.360 was pat Rizzutto and Andrew Wallander talking about p fasts 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.040 and firefighters and where we're heading. Uh, thank you guys 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.040 so much for talking. And that's it for today's episode 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.280 of Parts Revillion. If you want more environmental news, check 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.920 outur website news Stop Bloomberg Law dot com. Today's Parts 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.240 for Billion is produced by myself, David Schultz. Parts of 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.720 Bilion is created by Jessica Combs and Rachel Dagle and 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.960 is edited by Zack Shrwood and Renee Show. Our executive 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:49.600 producer is Josh Block. Thanks everyone for listening. Those nine 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.360 justices in Washington can be hard to keep track of. 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.920 That's where we commit on our podcast cases and controversies. 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.320 We give you a week by week accounting of the 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.920 Supreme Court, the filings, the arguments, the opinions, and much 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.320 much more. Check in on Fridays with Bloomberg Law's Cases 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.520 and controversies to find out what's coming up on the 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.800 horizon of the Supreme Court. Download and subscribe wherever you 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:13.840 get your podcasts.