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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. We've waited for months now

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Speaker 1: trying to understand the dynamics of the injuries that were

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Speaker 1: sustained by Paul and Maggie Murdoch, and as it turns out,

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Speaker 1: they're as brutal as we expected them. And today we

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Speaker 1: want to try to understand exactly how their depths came about,

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Speaker 1: the sequencing of the injuries that they sustained, and precisely

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Speaker 1: how long did it take for them to die. Today

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Speaker 1: I'm taping from Hollywood, California, so the sound is going

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Speaker 1: to be a bit different than normal, but I felt

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Speaker 1: the need to hop on here in wake of doctor

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Speaker 1: Reemer's testimony in the trial. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Bodybags. Joining me today is Dave Mack, reporter

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Speaker 1: with Crime Online. Dave, as I mentioned in the opening,

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Speaker 1: we've been waiting some time now for the testimony of

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist, and here we have it before us.

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Speaker 1: It certainly sent a shockwave through that courthouse the lead

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Speaker 1: up to testimony of doctor Allen Reemer. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: this is the one thing that people have really been

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Speaker 1: waiting for. Alec Murdaugh is on trial for the murders

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Speaker 1: of his wife and son. So, Maggie and Paul, they

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Speaker 1: were both murdered on Gin seven twenty one. I'm murda property.

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Speaker 1: They were both murdered within minutes of one another, and

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Speaker 1: they were both murdered with different weapons. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: to unpack here. Doctor Reemer was testifying about the wounds

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Speaker 1: to Maggie and Paul. As we begin, I have to

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Speaker 1: ask you the very specific question. I thought, we're at trial,

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Speaker 1: You're going to show us pictures. We're going to see

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Speaker 1: the pictures of everything that's going on with Paul and

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Speaker 1: Maggie Murdock and what they did. First though, doctor Riemer

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Speaker 1: used poster boards of male and female diagrams. Why would

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Speaker 1: that happen, Joe, when we look at autopsy photography. First off,

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Speaker 1: for those that are not familiar with the trauma at all,

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Speaker 1: and keep in mind, this is being used as a

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Speaker 1: descriptor as an illustrative aid for a jury that is

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Speaker 1: comprised of layman. Maybe there's a nurse on there, maybe

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Speaker 1: somebody served as an EMT at some point in tom

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Speaker 1: But when you begin to it into this find of detail,

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about trauma, it looks like somebody's nightmare,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're looking at this tissue that's twisted

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Speaker 1: and blown apart, and you can't pick out specific anatomical landmarks.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of it goes to orientation, a lot

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Speaker 1: of it goes to the idea of the extent of

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Speaker 1: the trauma. And Dave, I got to tell you, I've

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Speaker 1: seen it. I've seen it done kind of both ways

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Speaker 1: over the years. I've seen people demonstrate with photography and

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Speaker 1: then they fall back to a diagram, an anatomical diagram,

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Speaker 1: And those diagrams that they're using in court are specifically

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Speaker 1: blow ups of what's used at autopsy, where you have

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Speaker 1: a silhouette where it's drawn out and you can kind

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Speaker 1: of appreciate it. But in this case, they kind of

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Speaker 1: flip the script. They presented this thing in court and

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Speaker 1: she's got these two diagrams up on an easel. We

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Speaker 1: go with Paul first, which these injuries are just beyond

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Speaker 1: the pale when you begin to consider we're talking about

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Speaker 1: two shotgun blasts, and so the jury is looking they're

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Speaker 1: looking at these diagrams, which are essentially kind of like

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Speaker 1: outlines of bodies, and they're seeing it from a clean perspective. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So when you see it from a clean perspective, and

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Speaker 1: you can begin to see, okay, well that's his shoulder,

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Speaker 1: that's the side of his head, that's his chest, this

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Speaker 1: is his back, all of that stuff, and you begin

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Speaker 1: to see these little defects because she's drawing with both

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Speaker 1: a red and a black marker. The red, I think

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Speaker 1: was indicative of entrance wounds, the black indicative of eggs

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Speaker 1: at wounds. Suddenly the jury has an orientation to anatomy here. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Then it's at that point in time, after she's gone

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Speaker 1: through this, she's talking about direction of fire and she

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Speaker 1: goes into great detail about all of these elements. That's

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Speaker 1: when the prosecution introduces the graphic photographs, which you know,

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Speaker 1: by all of the descriptors from everyone to a person

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Speaker 1: that was in the court. They were so shocking when

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Speaker 1: you compare and contrast this. They put images up a

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Speaker 1: Paul throughout this case. They put images up of Maggie

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Speaker 1: throughout this case. People have seen it in the news,

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Speaker 1: but now you see what the real end result was.

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Speaker 1: You see what happens when somebody is shot with a

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Speaker 1: shotgun and essentially a high powered driver it's not a

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Speaker 1: matter of the Murtle homicide. It's a matter of the

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Speaker 1: Murtle homicides plural. We've got two, and you can only

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Speaker 1: imagine that once you make it through just one of

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Speaker 1: these deaths Paul, namely that you're thinking, you know what

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Speaker 1: I got to say, I don't know if I can

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Speaker 1: take anymore, but you have to move on to Maggie then,

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Speaker 1: and it just it's insulting to the senses I think

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Speaker 1: are probably a better word is assaulting. They did go

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Speaker 1: into great detail in breaking these cases down, and whether

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Speaker 1: you like it or not, that's just the nature of

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Speaker 1: what you have to do in court when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about homicide. During the opening statements, the defense and prosecution

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Speaker 1: both alluded to the injuries, but in particular, the defense

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Speaker 1: statement was very graphic about what happened to Paul about

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Speaker 1: the second shot, since you mentioned there too. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've got Paul and Maggie and looking at both of

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Speaker 1: these one at a time. It's believed that Paul was

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Speaker 1: shot first. He was shot twice, but he was the

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Speaker 1: first of them to be shot. The first was the

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Speaker 1: shotgun blast to the chest, and doctor Or testified that

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Speaker 1: had Paul received medical attention. He could have survived that shot.

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Speaker 1: So what kind of injuries are we looking at from

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Speaker 1: the first blast into Paul's chest this shotgun wound And

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Speaker 1: there's a difference. And she actually makes note of this

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Speaker 1: on the stand because prosecution, when they threw to her

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Speaker 1: on the stand, mentioned the term gunshot wound. And we

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Speaker 1: have to understand that this is not a gunshot when

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Speaker 1: it's a shotgun wound. And the reason that is significantly

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Speaker 1: different is it's a different type of ammunition. Instead of

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Speaker 1: just one singular projectile coming down range and striking a target,

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Speaker 1: you've got multiple projectiles. And in this case, the first

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Speaker 1: shotgun wound was actually from buckshot. So if you think

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Speaker 1: about this, this is the equivalent of sending multiple thirty

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Speaker 1: two caliber pellets into Paul's body. But you know, Dave, amazingly,

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Speaker 1: this was according to the forensic pathologists, this was a

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Speaker 1: survivable injury. Can you imagine that we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: first blast. It lines up so that when this weapon

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Speaker 1: is fired, it's fired into his right side essentially, or

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Speaker 1: into the right aspect of his chest and travels across

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Speaker 1: the center of the body. People refer to this as

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Speaker 1: a media stynem and it's traveling across the body and

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Speaker 1: exits out of what's called the left exilla. So if

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Speaker 1: folks at home will kind of lift their left arm

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Speaker 1: and the area just below your armpit, the pellets actually

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Speaker 1: pass through the left outer chest wall and back in

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Speaker 1: to his left arm and out of his left arm. Now,

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Speaker 1: not all of them, not all of them did, because

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Speaker 1: with the shotgun wound in particular, you don't retain a

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Speaker 1: lot of the energy that you do with a rifled projectile.

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Speaker 1: Where the bullet is spinning and it gets on target

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Speaker 1: and it passes through an area, the energy expends very quickly,

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Speaker 1: so you're not going to have all of the rounds

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Speaker 1: pass through at the same time. They'll stop. You can

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Speaker 1: actually cover some of the pellets. That's why it's so

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Speaker 1: important that you know, you do an X ray of

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Speaker 1: the body before the autopsy begins, so you can count

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Speaker 1: how many pellets you have, and depended upon the type

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Speaker 1: of ammunition that's being used, you will have a specific

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Speaker 1: count of pellets to expect to find, so you'll know

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Speaker 1: that if you're missing that number, it's either still in

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Speaker 1: the body or it's at the scene. The other thing

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Speaker 1: that was kind of curious they talked about was the

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Speaker 1: fact that the wadding was still in the body in

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Speaker 1: this particular case, and the wadding is it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like it's a cup of Some people refer to this

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Speaker 1: as a shot cup and imagine a plastic sleeve with

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Speaker 1: all of the little pellets that go into it. And

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Speaker 1: then it's placed into the interior of the shot shell itself,

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Speaker 1: because like I said, there's no rifling. When the scene

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Speaker 1: is fired, that actual shot wadding comes out and it

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Speaker 1: acts as kind of a container as it's traveling out

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Speaker 1: of the end of the barrel. The petals deployed and

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Speaker 1: it looks like a flower and it's got it contained outside,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden it opens up and

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Speaker 1: there's this blast of these little projectiles that are traveling

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Speaker 1: through the air. And they actually recovered this shot cut

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Speaker 1: wadding there within his body. They were able to find it.

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Speaker 1: This was, according to her survivable injury. She talked about

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Speaker 1: how Paul would have gone to surgery, they would have treated,

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Speaker 1: stitched him up, debreeded some of the wounds, treated for

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Speaker 1: potential infection. And it's amazing in such close proximity as

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Speaker 1: this weapon was fired, it didn't tear more tissue up.

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Speaker 1: He did sustain a contusion to his lung because of

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Speaker 1: this concussive blast, but it didn't compromise the structural integrity

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Speaker 1: of the lung. It would have still functioned. It didn't

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Speaker 1: harm the heart. That's kind of an interesting perspective when

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Speaker 1: you begin to think on it. But that wasn't the

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Speaker 1: only injury that he sustained. He actually had one more day.

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Speaker 1: This shot that we heard about during the opening where

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Speaker 1: it was very descriptive of what happened on the second

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Speaker 1: shot to Paul's head. When I heard them describe this

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Speaker 1: during the opening statement, it was said that it shot,

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Speaker 1: his brain exploded out of his head, hit the ceiling,

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Speaker 1: and the brain landed at his feet. Isn't that something?

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Speaker 1: Pathologists have an interesting way of speaking that many people

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Speaker 1: are not used to. When she began to describe specifically

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Speaker 1: with her language, she used the term dave ejected. You

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Speaker 1: think about pilots coming out of a plane if they

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Speaker 1: hit the ejection handle. That's actually what happened the blast

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Speaker 1: that he sustained, and it wasn't These are not very

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Speaker 1: well aimed at shots, because if you're taking the shotgun

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Speaker 1: and pointing it at his head. Where are you going

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Speaker 1: to shoot him in the shoulder? Well, I guess he

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Speaker 1: in motion because he's reacting to that first blast. And

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Speaker 1: you know, she even opined that he was still in

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Speaker 1: an upright position when the weapon was fired that shot

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Speaker 1: sequence was initiated. In the second shot, he was still

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Speaker 1: standing up and this blast traveled out of the barrel.

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Speaker 1: And this is not you know, we think about buckshot,

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Speaker 1: which he was shot with initially. That's generally something that

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Speaker 1: is commonly associated with a tremendous amount of trauma. A buckshot,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about using The reason they talk

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Speaker 1: about buckshot and call it that is that you can

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Speaker 1: hunt a deer with it, okay, and you think you're

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Speaker 1: going to take it out on a large animal this thing.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't do as much disruption as the second shot,

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Speaker 1: which was actually going to get this bird shot. So

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Speaker 1: when he struck, he struck in the shoulder. It passes

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Speaker 1: through his shoulder, winds up in the side of his neck,

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Speaker 1: and hits this large bone in the base of the

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Speaker 1: skull that interiorly it supports the brain. It blew out

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Speaker 1: the right side of his head. Here's kind of another

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Speaker 1: another interesting little queue to this, Dave, is that they

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Speaker 1: and I think that this probably really caught people off guard,

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Speaker 1: is that they described removing Paul's brain from the scene

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Speaker 1: in a bucket. Let's let that sink in just a second,

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Speaker 1: in a bucket. And she actually says that when the

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Speaker 1: body is received at the morgue, the brain is in

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Speaker 1: a bucket. Maybe the people that are sitting in the

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Speaker 1: jerry box they can't understand some of the fancy medical lingo,

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Speaker 1: technical jargon. But then you think about this. Everyone knows

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Speaker 1: what buckets are used for collecting things mopping, but your brain,

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Speaker 1: his brain into the morgue in a bucket. If Maggie

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Speaker 1: is present when the shotgun blast initiate and this is

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Speaker 1: her child, my goodness, what in the world was going

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Speaker 1: through her mind at that moment? Does she have an

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Speaker 1: awareness when she turns, she looks at the sound. Maybe

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Speaker 1: there's a yelp or a scream that issues forth from Paul.

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Speaker 1: Does she even hear that? Does the shooter say anything

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Speaker 1: at that moment, Tom, You've suddenly got this just rain

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Speaker 1: of tissue and blood that is settling in this place.

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Speaker 1: Not to mention, you know, the smoke that's kind of

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Speaker 1: rising up from this shotgun blast it's taken place, there

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Speaker 1: would even potentially be a smell in this environment of

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Speaker 1: burned gunpowder at that point in time. I don't know

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Speaker 1: really the dynamic for me, it's still very confusing. There

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Speaker 1: was something said during opening statements. You know, we heard

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Speaker 1: the part of the brain being ejected hitting the ceiling,

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Speaker 1: landing back at Paul's feet, but there was something else

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Speaker 1: about that shot. Paul's face was left intact, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know how that's even possible, Joe. In the vernacular

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Speaker 1: that we've heard for years and years, people will use

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Speaker 1: terms like blowing heads clean off, are blowing your face off,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and that's really not the case.

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Speaker 1: Things don't necessarily play out like people suggest that they might.

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Speaker 1: This is not like a watermelon that you're firing at

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Speaker 1: where the thing, you know, kind of explodes like that.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't happen. There's a level of elasticity to the

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Speaker 1: human skin. Now, every now and then you'll have enough

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Speaker 1: trauma where things will completely disintegrate. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: what she did describe, let's just say just arbitrarily, he

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Speaker 1: was laying there on the ground. The blast did not

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Speaker 1: involve his face to the extent where his recognizable features

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Speaker 1: were disrupt it and it was concentrated on the poster

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Speaker 1: are the back side of the head, which, of course,

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Speaker 1: as you and I have already stated, this ejection took place,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the brain essentially exited the cranial vault,

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Speaker 1: but his face would still be recognizable. And one more thing,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned this because I just got to

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Speaker 1: think and she was asked about range of fire with Paul,

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Speaker 1: and I think this plays over into Maggie as well

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Speaker 1: with her injuries. You know, range of fire with Paul,

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Speaker 1: he had stippling, and stipling means that you've got gunpowder

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Speaker 1: that is unburned, that is coming out of the end

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Speaker 1: of that muzzle and it's essentially embedding into the skin

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Speaker 1: at a very superficial level. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: if you took a cross section of the skin where

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Speaker 1: there is stipling or gunpowder, you can actually see the

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Speaker 1: gunpowder microscopically. You can see it so clearly that you

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Speaker 1: can make out if the gunpowder is conical and shaped

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Speaker 1: or it has a spherical shaped to it or pyramiddle.

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Speaker 1: Because every manufacturer uses a different type of gunpowder, and

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Speaker 1: it's the way it's kind of shaped out, if you will.

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Speaker 1: So that was there, but there was no soot, which

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Speaker 1: means that soot arrives from burning gunpowder. And if you're

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Speaker 1: really close, like okay, let's back up to the stippling.

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Speaker 1: Stipling was relative to range of fire, you think she's

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Speaker 1: saying two to three feet that that shotgun blast would

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Speaker 1: deposit that unburned gunpowder into the skin and kind of

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Speaker 1: embed it. But yet there's no soot. Soot essentially drifts

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Speaker 1: away outside of about eighteen inches. So when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at this, you're thinking, she can at least give us

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Speaker 1: a theoretical construct here about how far away then that

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Speaker 1: muzzle was. And these things are so dynamic you can't

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Speaker 1: necessarily pin everything to it. In this case, the weapon

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Speaker 1: was not pressed directly to the sights of entrance with Paul.

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Speaker 1: Were there any type of defensive wounds on Paul? No, no,

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Speaker 1: nothing that there's no indication. And that's a fantastic question, Dave,

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Speaker 1: because you think that if a young man, and let's

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Speaker 1: just suppose that it is somebody that is within their family, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's doing this. If somebody points a weapon at you

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Speaker 1: you're going to fight them. You know, that's just something

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Speaker 1: regular people just don't do. You don't take a weapon

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Speaker 1: and point the muzzle at somebody. So what does that

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Speaker 1: tell us? That tells us that with Paul, that there

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Speaker 1: was not a level of awareness that this was occurring

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Speaker 1: or he was being held at bay, you know, at

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Speaker 1: a distance. You know what I'm saying, Where there's a

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Speaker 1: distance from the end of that muzzle to his person,

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Speaker 1: all right, that he's not fighting, he's just like submitting

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Speaker 1: at that point. But the prosecutor says, were his hands

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Speaker 1: up at any point in Tom No, they weren't. They weren't.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you think of somebody in a surrender

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Speaker 1: pose where they're putting their hands up above their head

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Speaker 1: to demonstrate that I don't have any weapons, I'm not threat.

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Speaker 1: That's worth that didn't happen. Meanwhile, we've got Maggie to

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Speaker 1: get to and her setup is a totally different thing.

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Speaker 1: You've got Maggie, probably here's the first shot, moves towards

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Speaker 1: the sound because to the best of her knowledge, there's

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Speaker 1: only Paul and Alec out there, and so she moves

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Speaker 1: towards it as an accident. Got to figure out what's

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Speaker 1: going on. The second shot would send her running, and

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Speaker 1: that's what was mentioned during opening statements that she was

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Speaker 1: running away. And as a matter of fact, if I'm

302
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Speaker 1: not mistaken, there was a question about did she have

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Speaker 1: any defensive wounds? Yes, she was running away. And so

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Speaker 1: when we get to Maggie's wounds versus Paul's, we're looking

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Speaker 1: at a totally different weapon. How do you transition, Oh, Dave,

306
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Speaker 1: how do you transition in this particular case? And my

307
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 1: contention with this has been that a shotgun is more

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00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: than sufficient to render someone dead, and it's a semi

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00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 1: automatic shotgun. We know that, So why would you initiate

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Speaker 1: this sequence with a shotgun? Have a rifle sequestered somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it's just laying I don't know, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: laying at the perpetrator's feet. They go to the trouble

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Speaker 1: to put the shotgun down, retrieve the rifle, raise it

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Speaker 1: at a target that is moving away from them, and

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Speaker 1: start the firing sequence, knowing that there is a probability

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Speaker 1: that you might miss. The term scattergun. They just don't

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Speaker 1: use that term for no reason. It's a scattergun. It

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Speaker 1: as it goes out of the barrel, that spreads out.

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Speaker 1: And that's the beauty of a shotgun is that even

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Speaker 1: if you can't aim well, you can impact a target

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Speaker 1: with it, not with this rifle. That's why they're talking

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Speaker 1: about a sequencing of I I don't remember, Dave. I

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Speaker 1: think it's either four to five shots. I think that

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Speaker 1: there was one where they're talking about that there might

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Speaker 1: be an entrance and a reentry and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Umer actually explained that Maggie Murdah's injuries, she had five

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Speaker 1: gunshot wounds from at least four gunshots, right, And when

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Speaker 1: you look at these injuries, you can actually have a

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Speaker 1: round that will, say, for instance, pass through one anatomical

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Speaker 1: area of the body, exit and depended upon position that

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Speaker 1: you're in, say that you're in a position of submission

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Speaker 1: where you're kind of bent at the waist, for instance,

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Speaker 1: and that round enters the body, it can actually pass through,

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Speaker 1: say and just throwing this out there, it passes through

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Speaker 1: the post of your chest, the back, exits the at

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Speaker 1: your chest, the front, and then maybe reenters the abdomen.

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Speaker 1: That happens, and the reason it happens, particularly with a

338
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Speaker 1: r le is because they're so much muzzle velocity involved

339
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: in this thing. I mean, this is a robust round

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00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. One thing that I think of

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Speaker 1: when I think of a rifle is shooting from a

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Speaker 1: bit of a distance. But in this case, there was

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Speaker 1: stippling around Maggie Murda's wounds. This is what kind of

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Speaker 1: shocked me. I really wanted to ask you because the

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Speaker 1: first two shots apparently have been fired from within three

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Speaker 1: feet a yardstick, that's it. And he's got a rifle. Yea,

347
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Speaker 1: how do you transition? How do you transition? I keep

348
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Speaker 1: asking that question. How do you go from a shotgun

349
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Speaker 1: which is and it's not what they're opining is even

350
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Speaker 1: though they don't have it. They're not suggesting that this

351
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Speaker 1: is like a tactical shotgun. It's got like a short barrel.

352
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Speaker 1: They're not actually talking about that. They're implying that this

353
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Speaker 1: is a shotgun that would be used to hunt with.

354
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Speaker 1: And you want a long barrel. These have a long barrel, okay,

355
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Speaker 1: because it proves your aim. You've got this robust shotgun

356
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Speaker 1: here in your hands, You're gonna fire this thing. And

357
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Speaker 1: then after you fired it and probably not emptied it

358
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Speaker 1: because you know, the shotgun depended upon the configuration, it

359
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 1: can hold five, maybe even six rounds. Well, you've only

360
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Speaker 1: fired two times out of it, so you're gonna put

361
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Speaker 1: this thing down. Pick up a rifle, which, as you mentioned,

362
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Speaker 1: is a rifle that is set up to fire great distances.

363
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Speaker 1: You know, you think about like a and it's not

364
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: the same, but a five point five six also in

365
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: civilian caliber two to three, which approximates what our military uses. Okay,

366
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Speaker 1: the M four carband, you think about that, and it's

367
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Speaker 1: good up to three hundred yards away day. I mean,

368
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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, it's at a great distance. This is

369
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Speaker 1: a three hundred blackout. This is a more robust round.

370
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Speaker 1: The diameter of it's bigger, it's it's closer to it's

371
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Speaker 1: not a three O eight, but it's closer in diameter

372
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Speaker 1: to a three A. It's more robust, and say what

373
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Speaker 1: our military carries, and it's still got a great reach

374
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: to it. But it's used as a tactical weapon where

375
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: you can go into the thing, you can fire to

376
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: great distances, but you can also utilize it if you're

377
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Speaker 1: sweeping a room in the military, or say with the

378
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: police and a swat team. It doesn't have a long,

379
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Speaker 1: long barrel length most of the time. Sometimes it will,

380
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: but most time it's more compact. So again we go

381
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: back to the utility. What were they thinking, this perpetrator,

382
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: What were they thinking in this particular case. It just

383
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: it boggles to mind as far as I'm concerned. And

384
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Speaker 1: so you've got the first two shots fired within three feet.

385
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Speaker 1: Maggie apparently goes down. She's on her knees, and according

386
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Speaker 1: to doctor Reemer, shot fired into Maggie's admin while she's

387
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: standing causes her to lean over and fall forward. She's

388
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: on her knees. Two fatal shots to the head. She's

389
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Speaker 1: on her hands and knees, and now you're going to

390
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: kill shot. Yeah, not not one, but two. And Dave,

391
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Speaker 1: the fact that you mentioned the nature of this gunshot

392
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Speaker 1: wound to the abdomen is it's important to understand this.

393
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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna I'm gonna definitely understate this and do

394
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: a disservice to this. So forgive me in advance. This

395
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: would have been like getting hit in the abdomen with

396
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Speaker 1: a ten pound sledgehammer swung by a three hundred pound man.

397
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: All right, So when she contracts like this and goes

398
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 1: to the ground. She's in a position where she's non ambulatory,

399
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: she's not moving, she's had the win knocked out over

400
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: at this point in time, I mean, can you imagine

401
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: the horror at this point because she is alive. At

402
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: this point in time, there's an awareness. I keep going

403
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: back to that term, there's an awareness of what's going on.

404
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: You mentioned the proverbial cool de gras two gunshot wounds

405
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: to the head with a high velocity weapon, and we

406
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: get some sense of the dynamics of these injuries. And

407
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: you hear the term defect in pathology. They're not talking

408
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: about like something like a defective instrument or something. Their

409
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: defect actually means an opening or hole, So they'll say

410
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: it's an injury. So instead of saying gunshot woman, they'll

411
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: say defect. So you've got a series of defects that

412
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: are in the body where she's trying rumors, trying to

413
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: make sense. And this brings us back to what we

414
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: had said earlier. If it's this difficult for the forensic

415
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: pathologist to kind of figure out the sequencing of these wounds,

416
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: and I think this is kind of an interesting point.

417
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: How much more difficult is it going to be for

418
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: a jury because this is put it frankly, it's a

419
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: damn mess. I mean it truly is. This is not

420
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: like a single gunshot woman. So you've got all these

421
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: different injuries that are kind of communicating with each other,

422
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: entrances and exits and re entrances, and it's very complex

423
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: and complicated. That's why you need a forensic patholo. Just

424
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: it's not only technically sound. I think she's done like

425
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: fifty five hundred autopsies by her own admission, but she's

426
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: having to draw this out. And that's the beauty of this,

427
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: if there can be anything to that. The beauty of

428
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: it is that she's able to communicate effectively with a jury.

429
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: Use these diagrams and show it, because it's like you're

430
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: looking at the diagrams right now, and I think you'd

431
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: agree with me, Dave. Those diagrams are stark white. You

432
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: know when you see those images in a court that

433
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're about to get their senses

434
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: blasted because they're going to see bloody gore is what

435
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: they're going to see. And how do you make sense

436
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: of that? But one thing that doctor Riemer pointed out

437
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: is that either of the head shots would have been

438
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: fatal at the moment it happened. Is this a sense

439
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: of overkill that there were two shots to the head,

440
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: the second shot going straight down the top of her

441
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 1: head and coming out her shoulder. I think that it is.

442
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting point in this. You know, we

443
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: think about overkill most of tom and we've talked about

444
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: it on bodybacks, or that people overkill with a blunt object,

445
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: people overkill with sharp force injuries with an edged weapon,

446
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: and there's a there's kind of the sense that they're

447
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: trying to disfigure people, you know what I'm saying, where

448
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: they're just going in and brutalizing somebody. I don't know that.

449
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: And again I am not a forensic psychologist. I don't

450
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: want to be a forensic psychologist. If we pull this

451
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: over to overkill, I don't know if it's if it

452
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: is overkill or if it is a flourish if it's

453
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: like being overly engaged in this event, and you want

454
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: assurance that this individual is deceased, because here's the real

455
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: indicator here. This is not like you have brought a

456
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: nine millimeter pistol and you have shot somebody in the

457
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: head day you have brought a weapon, the shotgun first off,

458
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: but this three hundred blackout. You've brought this three hundred blackout,

459
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: which is a weapon that the murder hogs were known

460
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: to use to hunt hogs with. Wild hogs are some

461
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: of the most ferocious animals that are out there. Why

462
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: do you need that much? Why is it? Well, it

463
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: either is you're trying to make a point by being

464
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: over the top with it, okay, or it's what you know.

465
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: It's what you're familiar with. Because there are guns all

466
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: in that house, we know that they used them to

467
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: hunt with, and it's certainly something that they had at

468
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: their disposal. As of the state, the Mrtile trial continues.

469
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: We'll see what happens in the coming days. We'll see

470
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: what else presents itself, what other evidence is put forth

471
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: by not just the prosecution, but by the defense as

472
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: well of Joseph Scott Morgan. And this is body backs