1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm really looking forward to this show, and I'm 2 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm debating on whether or not I consider this to 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: be a serious topic. Obviously, the assassination of JFK is 4 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: a very serious thing. 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: It is a. 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: Serious topic, but we're so far removed from it now 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: that discussing the circumstances around it, it doesn't feel as 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: raw or emotional as I guess used to back in 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: the day I wasn't alive. But I'm really looking forward 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: to I'm really interested in the different views people have 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: of the JFK assassination, what they think happened, why it happened. 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 3: We got a couple of guests on it. 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: It's gonna be a really, really cool show, and so 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: I thought, in fairness, I might as well just give 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: you my theory on it. 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 3: I'll tell you my justification and. 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Then I'll lay out my theory on it, and then 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: we'll move on to other and listen, I don't know, 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: you don't know. We all think we know. Everyone has 20 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: a theory. If you asked my own man, well before 21 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: he passed, if you asked my own man, he would 22 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: tell you till he was blue in the face. 23 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 3: That LBJ killed JFK. 24 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: Maybe it did. My dad was right about everything. Maybe 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: so we probably didn't. 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: I don't know. That's not my theory. 27 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: Here's my theory, okay, and I'll justify it after I 28 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: tell you my theory. My theory is the American mafia, 29 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: both Italian and Jewish. 30 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 3: We'll get to that in a moment. 31 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,919 Speaker 1: The Italian mafia, the Jewish mafia in America, in conjunction 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: with partners in the Central Intelligence Agency, took out President 33 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: John F. 34 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 3: Kennedy. Now let me explain why. 35 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: Now that's not something you haven't ever heard before, but 36 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: allow me to give you my explanation. First, the background 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: on all this Cuba, The United States of America before cash, 38 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: the United States of America really controlled Cuba. 39 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 3: We really kind of did. 40 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: We controlled Cuba, and it was from my understanding, I've 41 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: never been an island paradise, a Caribbean island paradise, a 42 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: vacation mecca for Americans, a business mecca for American businesses. 43 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: We had corporations setting up shop there. Americans like you 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: me want to take the fam down somewhere nice for 45 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: a week, you go to Cuba. 46 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 3: That was what it was. And because of their laws it. 47 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: Became heaven for the mafia, the American mafia, the Taia mafia, 48 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: and Jewish mafia, and those are really one and the 49 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: same at this point in time. But just know for 50 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: the purposes of our conversation, several different American mafia families 51 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: existed then and exists now. And really the Jewish mafia, 52 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: the head of that back then was a man by 53 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: the name of may Or Lanski. Now what did they 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: do in Cuba, Well, gambling casinos. The second you get 55 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: people into a casino, that becomes like a magnet for 56 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: mafia type figures. The Traficante family, that's a mafia family 57 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: that ran Florida. The Marcelo family under Carlos Marcelo, that's 58 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: the mafia family that ran New Orleans. These names are 59 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,839 Speaker 1: going to be incredibly important, So stay with me here. 60 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: Sam Giancana, who ran the outfit or the syndicate, the 61 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: Chicago mafia they did plug New York. There's a lot 62 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: of mafia connections. They're all involved in Cuba. They're making 63 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: a fortune in Cuba, a fortune before they were making 64 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: money on Vegas. They were making that money in Cuba. 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: Then Fidel Castro leads a revolution the Communist stick over Cuba. 66 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: The United States of America is upset for a variety 67 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: of reasons. One, we don't like communism. Two, we're losing 68 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: our business interests. We don't want a hostile Communist power 69 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: just off of our shore. We are angry and we 70 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: want to do something about it. Guess who's just as 71 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: angry as America was, or as the American government was. 72 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: The American mafia was Jewish and Italian quite upset because 73 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: one of the first things Castro did was kicked them 74 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: all out of the country. No more money, no more casino, 75 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: no more checks. Now, this is all documented. What I'm 76 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: saying now that none of this is theory. This is 77 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: all documented. So the American government wanted Castro debt tried 78 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: in several ways to kill Fidel Castro. 79 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 3: They were struggling to do so. 80 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: Central Intelligence Agency at one point in time they reached 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: out to the American mafia because they thought the mafia 82 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: could help taking somebody out. 83 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 3: But it gets more in depth. 84 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: You know about the Bay of Pigs, when we tried 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: to invade and take back Cuba with a bunch of 86 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: brave Cubans. What you may not know is many of 87 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: those brave Cubans were trained here on US soil. They 88 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: were trained by Central Intelligence Agency places like Florida and otherwise, 89 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: and they needed guns and who can move weaponry easily 90 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: inside the borders of the United States of America the 91 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: American Mafia. This part hasn't really been confirmed, but it's 92 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: believed that the American Mafia was helping run those guns 93 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: to the Cubans who would eventually die and be imprisoned 94 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: in the failed invasion of the Bay of Pigs. Okay, 95 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: so you got all that. Most of that is confirmed background. 96 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: We're not even in the Waco conspiracy theory land. And 97 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: then we get to the Bay of Pigs. People don't 98 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: like to be embarrassed. I don't like to be embarrassed. 99 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: You don't like to be embarrassed. Powerful men really do 100 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: not like to be embarrassed, and they will oftentimes hurt 101 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: people if they are. 102 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 3: John F. 103 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: Kennedy did not appreciate the Bay of Pigs, and he 104 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: laid the blame squarely at the feet fairly or unfairly, 105 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: he laid the blame squarely at the feet of Central 106 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency. 107 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: Talk to about breaking up the Central Intelligence Agency. CIA. 108 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: Didn't want that now combine that with this John F. Kennedy. 109 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: His dad had all kinds of mafia connections, bootlegging, prohibition, 110 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: His dad very powerful man at mafia connections. Reportedly he 111 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: leveraged those connections to help his son win the presidency 112 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: in states like Illinois. Back to that Sam Giancana Chicago 113 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: mob stuff. Now the mob they believed they helped John F. 114 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: Kennedy win the presidency. 115 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: John F. 116 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: Kennedy won the presidency promptly made his brother Attorney general. 117 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: His brother, as Attorney General, went after the American mob. 118 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: Not only did he go after them, he called them 119 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: in publicly, made these secretive men publicly testify, and frankly 120 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: embarrassed him. I remember watching one of these things. I 121 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: forget who it was. He actually accused one of them off, 122 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: laughing like a little girl. So now you have the 123 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: CIA not that pleased with John F. Kennedy, the mob 124 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: not that pleased with John F. 125 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 3: Kennedy. John F. Kennedy takes a ride in a convertible 126 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 3: through Dallas. John F. 127 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: Kennedy is shot Lee Harvey Oswald. I don't deny that 128 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: at all. Whether there was a second shooter or a gunman, 129 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. But what I do know is this, 130 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald, the man who just assassinated the president 131 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: of the United States of America, was then paraded publicly 132 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: on camera. 133 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 3: Paraded. 134 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: It's an odd move for such a security risk, don't 135 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: you think. Not only was he paraded on camera, he 136 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: was then shot on camera. You can go watch it 137 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: to this day by somebody named Jack Ruby. Seems like 138 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: a patriotic citizen just upset about his president. Of course, 139 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: Well that's interesting because Jack Ruby famously ran a Dallas 140 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: area strip club for the mob. Jack Ruby in his 141 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: youth used to go around and beat people up with 142 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: clubs and chains for none other than may Or Lansky. 143 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: Jack Ruby was a lifelong mobster, just happened to be 144 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: so filled with patriotic fervor that he took out Lee 145 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: Harvey oh's Wald before Lee Harvey oh's Wald could. 146 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: Testify to anything. 147 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: Now, I will put a final bew on my theory, 148 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: and then we'll move on and hear everyone else's theory. 149 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: I'll put a final bell on it with this. I 150 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: love American mafia stories like any red blooded American male. 151 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 3: I read them. 152 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: I watched the documentary's book after book after book I've read. 153 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: Now you read one book from one mobster, you're gonna 154 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: just anticipate there's a bunch of lies in there. These 155 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: are career liars, that's what career criminals are. But it 156 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: is remarkably consistent. Account after account after account after account 157 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: from Frank Shecheron's book I Heard You Paint Houses to 158 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: a Banano Bo to the. 159 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: Book after book after book after book. 160 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: Mafia guys from back in this era seemed to tell 161 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: the exact same tale, some version of it that I 162 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: just told you. We helped elect Kennedy, then he screwed 163 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: us over. We got to know the CIA really well. 164 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: Previously we decided we were going to take out the 165 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: American president. One liar, Okay, ten of them. It's probably 166 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: as many books as I've read talking about it, all 167 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: telling the same tale, probably. 168 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: Something to that. This is just my theory. 169 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: Now, a lot of that, the background stuff which I 170 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: told you is fact, But that's my theory. Will we 171 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: ever know, No, we will not ever know. Newly declassified 172 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: documents don't shed any light on any of that. Now 173 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: they kind of indicate maybe some of that might be true, 174 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: but we're never going to get confirmation of it. That's 175 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: half the point of taking out the patsy, isn't it. 176 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: All ties are severed. Maybe that made you uncomfortable. Maybe 177 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm right. 178 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: I don't know. 179 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: Let's talk to someone else who has a theory, shall 180 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: we next. I love to sleep. I've always been this way. 181 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: I know it's some kind of weird sickness, but I've 182 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: never even been in a phase in. 183 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 3: My life where I didn't love to sleep. 184 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: Even as you're a wild young man, eleven o'clock midnight 185 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: at the latest. 186 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 3: Eh, I gonna crash. 187 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: As you get older, it gets harder, doesn't it. That's 188 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: where dream powder from Beam comes in. You see, dream 189 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: powder will have you sleeping like a baby, no matter 190 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: your age, whether you love it, whether you hate it, 191 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: whether you're naturally good at it or whether you're not. 192 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: It's natural sleep, not drug induced sleep. It's all natural 193 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: things like raychi and magnesium. It's a cup of hot chocolate. 194 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: It'll have you drifting off to sleep and sleeping like 195 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: a baby every single night. Go to Shopbeam dot com 196 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: slash Jesse Kelly and that gets you up to forty 197 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: percent off. 198 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 3: Just try one bag. You'll always have some my promise. 199 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: Shopbeam dot com slash Jesse Kelly. 200 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 3: The JFK files. 201 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: As promised, we were about to talk about them, but 202 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: I thought maybe it would be better if you heard 203 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: it from more of an expert on the subject than me. 204 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: Larry Hancock joins us. Now he's the author of the 205 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 3: book The Oswald Puzzle. 206 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: Okay, Larry, before we get into the files, what you 207 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: believe the truth to be and all that? What has 208 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: been the consensus behind the JFK assassination which still rattles 209 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: us to this day. 210 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: I think the consensus has certainly been that it was 211 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: some form of conspiracy. I think primarily it's leaning towards 212 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: people associated with this. There are other possibilities organized crime 213 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: in some fashion, Lyndon Baines Johnson in some fashion, but 214 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: it's it's in recent years it's more centered around the CIA, 215 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: in particular their Operations group, the group that was working 216 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 2: on anti castro activities. And that's okay, that's largely because 217 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 2: JFK had shut down so many of the anti castro activities. 218 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 2: He was taking it away from the CIA, giving it 219 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: the military. A lot did this satisfaction within the CIA 220 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: about JFK and and several of their officers really considered 221 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: them almost treasonous. 222 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: Okay, help me understand that, particularly because just presented that 223 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: way on its face. Because he's shutting down your department 224 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: at CIA. 225 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: You may be angry about it. 226 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: You may go home, get drunk, scream at your scream 227 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: at your wife, crying your cheerios. 228 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: To take the leap to. 229 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: That assassinate the president of the United States of America 230 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: is quite a leap. 231 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: That is a leap, and I think that's why it 232 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: needs to be qualified. Over time, people have painted with 233 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: real broad brushes like, oh, it was the CIA in general, 234 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: or it was Godfathers and the mafia in general, and 235 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: that's a mistake. In the CIA, there was a very 236 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 2: particular group of people that things were very personal too. 237 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: These were CIA officers and the anti Castro exiles that 238 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: they had been working with for three years from before 239 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: the Bay of Pigs, people that had been involved with 240 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: the Bay of Pigs. These are people who have been 241 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: trying to bring down the Castro regime and kill Castro. 242 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: And that group included Johnny ROSELDI, who was had contacts 243 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: with organized crime. But there was a very special group 244 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: of people who had been risking their lives literally for 245 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: three years to bring down Castro and the other And 246 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: in the fall of nineteen sixty three, the message came 247 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: down from Washington that JFK was actually beginning covert negotiations 248 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: with Videl Castro at his request, and those Castro had 249 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: literally floated the offer that he was fed up with Russians. 250 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: They demanded him. He wanted to get rid of them. 251 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: He was open to discussions of neutrality accommodation with the US. 252 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: He had reached out to JFK, and by that fall, 253 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: JFK was taking it seriously enough so that he had 254 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: detached State Department personnel and they were ready to go 255 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: to Cuba for direct talks with Castro. And you can 256 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: imagine when these people in Miami, who were trained military operatives, 257 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: who have been trying to unseat Castro, they already considered 258 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: JFK to have been betrayed them at the Bay of Pigs. 259 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: They considered that he had had turned against them with 260 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: the missile crisis. This is kind of the third strike. 261 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: So when they hear that everything they've been doing, the people, 262 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: the friends, they've lost, everything is about to go away 263 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: unless JFK goes away. That was the tipping point, very personal. 264 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm sure we'll come back to that. 265 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the JFK files, because now we have 266 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: I think it's sixty three thousand pages, so it's a 267 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: friggin lot. And unless you are a much faster reader 268 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: than I am, I doubt you've combed through every single document. 269 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: But I'm sure you've looked at it. What have you 270 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: seen anything that blew your skirt up? 271 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 2: I have looked at it, and I have some friends 272 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: who are looking at it all night. So basically, what 273 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: we've got to understand is what we've seen so far, 274 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: which is some sixty thousand pages are almost all re releases. 275 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: These are documents that already were at the National Archives. 276 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: Many of them have been really least three or four times. 277 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: I looked at documents last night that I've seen five 278 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: versions of before now, and they're simply being re released 279 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: with fewer redactions. In most cases, there are still some reactions. 280 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: Some documents are now totally unredacted. So that's good news 281 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: in an historical sense. It gives us some names that 282 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: we didn't have, some CIA identity, some sources, good good information, 283 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: and some good historical material like s Lessinger's advice to 284 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: JFK to literally take apart the CIA, and JFK was 285 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: considering that. But it's good historical information. But there's certainly 286 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: no smoking gun in regard to the assassination itself. And 287 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: as they say, it's almost all re releases. We may 288 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 2: get some new documents from the FBI. They say they 289 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: found twenty three hundred documents that they had not associated 290 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: with the JFK assassination before. We haven't seen those yet. 291 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 2: Those will be interesting, but some interesting things for me, 292 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: For example, having written the Oswald Puzzle, there's a lot 293 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: of speculation that Oswell went to Russia as a CIA asset. 294 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: They sponsored him. One of the documents I saw last 295 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: night was the CIA talking internal document talking about how 296 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: it didn't understand how Oswald had gotten too Russia through Helsinki, 297 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: how he'd gone there so quickly. They were concerned about 298 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 2: how he'd gone to Russia coming back with the Russian wife. 299 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: Certainly doesn't sound like they were behind is going or coming. 300 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 2: So that sort of information is helpful as well. But 301 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 2: that's not about the assassination. That's about Oswald. 302 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 3: Okay, So. 303 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: I guess something has me a little bit confused. I 304 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: just not that I thought there was going to be 305 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: some bombshell in this. But for sixty plus years, a 306 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: bunch of documents have been kept from the American publican 307 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: president after president after president, including Donald Trump himself, has. 308 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 3: Talked about releasing. 309 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: Them, and then someone's in their airs saying please don't, 310 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: please don't, and then we finally get them and it's 311 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: just not It's just not anything that blew me away. 312 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: So why is the secrecy? Why wasn't this out in 313 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four? 314 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think that at least maybe we can explain. 315 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: It would be good to be able to explain something. Right, 316 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: the CIA in particular, not so much the FBI, but 317 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: the CIA always said it was withholding documents because of names, 318 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: names of people, identities of people, names of sources that 319 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: might you know, endanger people back then or might certainly 320 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: hurt their reputations. I looked at a document last night, 321 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: quite a lengthy document that listed the names of a 322 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: whole series of CIA media assets, okay, and that a 323 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 2: lot of that had been withheld. Now is that going 324 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: to be embarrassing to the families of people who said 325 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: that they were, you know, totally objective and open journalists 326 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: to see that they have been taking information from the 327 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 2: CIA for years and would be and the CIA had 328 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: file names for them and considered them assets that could 329 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: be embarrassing. I looked at other documents last night that 330 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 2: talked about sources, how the CIA was getting information from 331 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 2: the British, the Australians, how they were getting domestic information 332 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 2: and sharing it with the FBI. Those are all things 333 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 2: that certainly at that time could have been embarrassing for individuals, 334 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: but could have compromised programs. Another thing that we saw 335 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: was actually names of people and some of the CI operations, 336 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 2: names of people in some of these Cuban operations. We 337 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: knew about the operations before, we didn't know exactly who 338 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 2: was involved. Now we can see who was involved, what 339 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: their cryptonyms were really trace their activities. Might that shock 340 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 2: some of their relatives, some of their relatives who might 341 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: even still be in Cuba to know, you know that 342 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 2: their relatives have been actively operated. There are also documents 343 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 2: that show list of Castro supporters, Cuban intelligence personnel, and 344 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: we're seeing true names so to some extent that is 345 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: related to individuals and their roles, maybe to living relatives 346 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: That's the closest I can see to explain the reactions. 347 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: Up to date. 348 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: Okay, now let's talk about Lee Harvey Oswald, because you 349 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: wrote the book on it. 350 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 3: Who was this guy? Was he? Do you believe? 351 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: Was he being controlled by somebody? Look like you mentioned 352 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: in the beginning, everyone has a theory. If you asked 353 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: my old man, may God rest his soul. He's swore 354 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: to the to the day he died that Lyndon Johnson 355 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: killed JFK. If you ask me, I'd tell you I 356 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: think the mob worked with the CIA to kill JFK. 357 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 3: But I don't know. I just know what I read. 358 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: What do you think I can tell you more about Oswald? 359 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: One of the reasons I can tell you more about 360 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 2: Oswald is Oswald. He talked a lot. He did have friends, 361 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: Contrary to what you might be led to believe, he 362 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: had friends that he talked about politics and international relations, 363 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: even in the Marines. 364 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 4: He wrote a lot. 365 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty three, he was writing a lot about 366 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: what he thought the world should be like. He was 367 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: very much in favor of economic justice, the availability of 368 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: medical care, racial justice. So we get a lot of 369 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: insight into what he said. He was interviewed on TV, 370 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: he was interviewed on radio. He wrote a lot, so 371 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: we have good insights with him, and in the book 372 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: we offer a very contrarian picture to what you get 373 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 2: in the Warrant Commission and to some JFK conspiracy. Basically, 374 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: the first two thirds of the book is what we 375 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: consider a solid biography as Oswald as an individual, you know, 376 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: just set aside speculation, this is his real history. The 377 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: last third of the book is what we see. It's 378 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: a scenario speculation on our part, but we think pretty 379 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: solid of how he was set up by people who 380 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: engaged with him in New Orleans that summer anti Castro 381 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: exiles who were representing themselves as Procastro, and essentially hooked 382 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: into a situation where he was essentially available to be 383 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: framed as part of the assassination pointing the Castro because 384 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: the people that carried out the assassination not only wanted 385 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: to kill JFK, they wanted to point it towards Castro, 386 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: and for the parties that were directly involved were told 387 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: that that would stimulate the US to attack Cuba and 388 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 2: eliminate Castro. Later on, I've talked to some people of 389 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: their families. They felt that they were misled in that part, 390 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: but that's another story. Oswald's a very unique individual, so 391 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: we think we can give a perspective that you didn't 392 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: get in the Warrant Commission, who had to pay him 393 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: as a loaner. They had to pay him as asocial, 394 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 2: violent radical, and that's not what you see in the 395 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: real Oswald. They needed to do that because they could 396 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: come up with no motive. Everybody they talked to about 397 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: he and JFK said yeah, he talked positively about JFK. 398 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: He said JFK was maybe the only president who could 399 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: deal with Khrushchev and reach some sort of detime and 400 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: avoid war. So the War Commission was really hard pressed 401 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: to present him with any kind of motive. So they 402 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: essentially had to adjust the picture of him as someone 403 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: who can be considered a lone nut, which he was neither. 404 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 2: He was not loan he was not a nut. His 405 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: IQ tested at one hundred and eighteen, very bright, and 406 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 2: he's one of the best spoken and actually, as marine 407 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: officers complained that he could talk geopolitics about as well 408 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 2: as they could and the Marines, and this is a 409 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: marine officer who graduated in political science from Georgetown. 410 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so Jack Ruby, I mean, I can't let you 411 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: go without asking about Jack Ruby, because that's always the thing, right. 412 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: You have this Dallas area strip club owner who most people, 413 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess a lot of people don't realize this. 414 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: At one point in time, he was an unfors or 415 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: a leg breaker from Mayer Lanski's Jewish mob. So we 416 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: had mafia ties, a tiny mob, Jewish mob all over 417 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: the place. He was got filled up with patriotic fervor 418 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: all of a sudden. But where do you explain Jack 419 00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: Ruby to me? 420 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 421 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: I can do that, almost do that for change. Okay. 422 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 2: You mentioned Mayor Lansky. Jack Ruby was connected to Lanski, 423 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: to Lanski's casino activities in Cuba before the Castor Revolution. 424 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 2: He actually was a FBI criminal witness in gun running 425 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: to Cuba. Jack Ruby had a lot of Cuban connections, 426 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: but the most important was to a fellow named Johnny Rosselli. 427 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 2: Johnny Rosselli was basically a consultant. He was mentored by Lanski. 428 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 2: He had gone to Cuba to run Lanski's casinos and 429 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: straighten up things in Cuba. He was very important because 430 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: he was trusted by godfathers. He placed money for them, 431 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: he got talent for them, his business card, says strategist. 432 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: I got to love that Roselli had a direct connection 433 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: based in Cuba to Jack Ruby, and we can paid 434 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: a pretty concrete trail that actually Roselli was used as 435 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: a cutout. Roselli was part of this same team that 436 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: I talked about before that had been working to first 437 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: poison Castro then attack him with rifle teams. He'd been 438 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: in this same team that had been trying to kill 439 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: Castro and overthrower regime for some three years with the 440 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: CI officers that had been involved, and he was brought 441 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: into the plot because they were comfortable with him and 442 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 2: because they specifically could provide him a deniable connection into 443 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 2: Dallas to get a field guy on the ground to 444 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: new dirty cops who knew how to get information inside 445 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: Dallas about the motorcade route to could support this team 446 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: into And we pretty much have that laid out as 447 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 2: to how Roselle served as the cutout using Jack Ruby, 448 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: and how Jack Ruby was brought in as field support 449 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: to this team that went to Dallas for the assassination. 450 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: Totally fascinating. I can't wait to read the book. Thank 451 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: you so much, sir. 452 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 3: It is the OS. Would go read the book the 453 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 3: os wal and puzzle. All right, I love my cell 454 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 3: phone company. 455 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: And I hate to sound like such a brutal cheapo, 456 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: but it's just the bill alone. Honestly, if it was 457 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: nothing else about pure Talk, if it was just my bill, 458 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: I would love it. We were paying a fortune at 459 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: T Mobile and we switched to Puretalk and our family 460 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: bill got cut in half. Average family saves a thousand dollars. 461 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 3: A year when they switched to Puretalk. Isn't that amazing? 462 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: And it's for the same service. They're in the same 463 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: five G network. Is the big guys? What you keep 464 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: your phone? You keep your phone number. We're talking a 465 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: pain free, money saving switch to a phone company that 466 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: shares and promotes your values, cares for veterans, not black 467 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: lives matter. Go to pure Talk dot com slash Jesse 468 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: TV and make the switch. Pure Talk dot com slash JESSETV. 469 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 3: We'll be back. 470 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: Well. 471 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: The thing about JFK's death is assassinations still reverber rates, 472 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: but so many people will talk about how well the 473 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: secrets died that day. All the secrets died that day. 474 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: There's no new. There's nothing new we can ever find out. 475 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: But I guess that depends on who you talk to. 476 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: Joining me now, Damon West, author of the book Six 477 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: Dimes in a Nickel. It's going to talk about these things, Damon, 478 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: before we get into your JFK story. 479 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 4: Who are you, hey, man, Jesse, what's going on? 480 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 5: Brother? Thanks for having me to brother. 481 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: You know, people describe me as a keynote speaker, best 482 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 4: selling author, but really I'm a family man. I'm a 483 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 4: guy that's living on my life in recovery. Back in 484 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 4: two thousand and nine, a jury in Dallas sends me 485 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 4: to life in prison for engage joann as crime. 486 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 5: I was the leader of a bunch of. 487 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: Other methadics breaking in the houses all over Dallas to 488 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 4: feed our meth addiction. It's a rico case and I 489 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 4: got sent this to sixty five years in prison, which 490 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 4: is six times. 491 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 5: In a nickel, which is the name of the book. 492 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 5: That's what they call it, a prison slang, six times 493 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 5: a nickel. But it was in that time in prison 494 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 5: that I learned. 495 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 4: About the story the message the Coffee Bean, and the 496 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 4: coffee Bean message says that in the pot of boiling 497 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 4: water called life. 498 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 5: You get three. 499 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,239 Speaker 4: Choices, do you I a carrot that turns soft, an 500 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 4: egg that becomes hardened by the water, or a coffee 501 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 4: bean which changes the pot of boiling water into a 502 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 4: pot of coffee. And ever since that inmate named Mohammad 503 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 4: told me the story of the coffee bean, that's what 504 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: I did. I transform myself inside that pot of ble 505 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 4: and water. That's a maximum security level five person in 506 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 4: the state of Texas. And the transformation was so complete 507 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 4: seven years into my sentence, the parole board came to 508 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 4: visit me and they. 509 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 5: Let me go. 510 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 4: Not exactly a free man, Jesse, because I'm on parole 511 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 4: until the year two thousand and seventy three. 512 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 5: But in the past ten years since I've. 513 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 4: Been out, I've been able to accomplish a lot in 514 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 4: life by living out that coffee bean philosophy. I've become 515 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 4: a husband and stepfather. I've become one of the most 516 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 4: sought after speakers in America. But like I said, I 517 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 4: stay sober one day at a time with my program recovery. 518 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 3: How about that? Good for you, my brother. 519 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: I love when people get out and make and turn 520 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: things around. 521 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: It blesses me blesses me. 522 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 4: To well, you know, Jesse, here's the thing people love. 523 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 4: What I found is I'm a storyteller. Right, People love storytellers. 524 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 4: And I think human beings have always learned from stories. 525 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 4: We've always either learned lessons and morals from stories. We 526 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 4: learned principles from stories. We've been entertained by stories for millennia. 527 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 4: Human beings that learned it the few the storytellers. And 528 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 4: that's really what I've become, Jesse. I've had this incredible 529 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 4: you know, I tell my wife every day. 530 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 5: I can't believe this is my life. 531 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: But in this life right now, I get to go 532 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 4: out and share these stories and these messages that I've 533 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,239 Speaker 4: picked up along the way. And as a storyteller, I 534 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 4: know that people love certain stories and certain elements. Right, Americans, 535 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 4: we love underdog stories, Jesse. 536 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 5: We love it. 537 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 4: We love because when the underdog wins, we win. We 538 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 4: love stories that have sports in it. I've got that 539 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 4: in my story too. I was a Division one starting 540 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 4: quarterback at twenty years old at the University of North Texas. 541 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 4: But we really love true crime in prison stories, Jesse. 542 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 4: And that's what's going to dove tell us into this 543 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 4: conversation today is the true crime in prison aspect. Here's 544 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 4: the reality of life, and I go around speaking as 545 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 4: a speaker all the time. Most people will never have 546 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 4: a swat team take them down. 547 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 5: I get that. 548 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 4: Most people will never have to live inside of a 549 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 4: maximum security level five prison. 550 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 5: I get that too. 551 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 4: But in my mind I understand that the swat teams 552 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 4: of life come for us in different ways. 553 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 5: Right a swat team of life. 554 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 4: Could be a divorce, It could be a bankruptcy, It 555 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 4: can be a marriage fel and it could be a 556 00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: job ge get lost. 557 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 5: It could be something from one of. 558 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: Your kids or one of your pets, life altering events, 559 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 4: or when the swat team comes forwards. But when the 560 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 4: swat teams come, you have to ask yourself, what's the 561 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 4: opportunity to diversity here? Because I believe I know that 562 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 4: inside of every adverse, difficult situation in life, there's an 563 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 4: opportunity there for you to grow, an opportunity for you 564 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 4: become a better version of yourself. In fact, I believe 565 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 4: the best version of you is on the other side 566 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 4: of whatever adversity you face in life. But the catch, Jesse, 567 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 4: is that you have to go through that adversity to 568 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 4: meet the best version of you in prison. Like I said, 569 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 4: you know, most people will never go live inside of 570 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 4: a maxistruted prison. But I can tell you this, Jesse, 571 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 4: without a doubt, that I meet more people out here 572 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 4: in the free world who are locked up than I 573 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 4: ever did when I serve time in a real prison. 574 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: Because more people are in prison by their thoughts, by 575 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 4: their things, by their prejudices, than by steel bars and 576 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 4: barbar and concrete combined. And you can take that from 577 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 4: the guy that's spent almost ten years in the joint 578 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 4: or the professor who teaches about the joint. 579 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 5: Because one of the things I've been able to. 580 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,479 Speaker 4: Do, Jesse, since I got out of prison, I went 581 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 4: back to school. I got a master's degree in criminals. 582 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 4: I wanted people to take me more serious than just 583 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 4: some other ex con that walked out of prison. And 584 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 4: I became a criminal justice professor at the University of 585 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 4: Houston Downtown. Get this, Jesse, teaching a class called Prisons 586 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 4: in America. How about that? For flipping the script of 587 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 4: a little bit. 588 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 5: Jesse, who's j T JT Goad? I figured we. 589 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 4: Would get to j T In's conversation, so you know, 590 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 4: when you go to prison, you take a lot of 591 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 4: people with the Jesse. You take your victims of the crimes, 592 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 4: you take your family members, you take your friends, you 593 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 4: take everybody believed, and you take the taxpayers with you 594 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 4: on a riot because they're the one's gonna fund it. 595 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 4: So you take a lot of people with him and 596 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 4: you go to prison. But you also meet a lot 597 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 4: of people inside of the prison. I met a lot 598 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 4: of different people inside there, But the most interesting person 599 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 4: I met in there was a guy named Jerry Thomas Gode. 600 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 5: Went by the name of j T. 601 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 4: JT was an old mobster from Dallas. He grew up 602 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 4: cutting his teeth in the Dallas mob in the early sixties. 603 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 4: By the time I saw him in prison, he was 604 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 4: an old man. He had given his life to Christ. 605 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 4: He was really he's really one of those people, one 606 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 4: of those rare people, I think Jesse that walked the talk. 607 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 4: You know, he didn't just talk about being a Christian. 608 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 4: He lived being a Christian, lived by the code of 609 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 4: forgiveness of you know, mercy and justice, and you know, 610 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 4: he was just a really good guy. When I met him. 611 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 4: JT had these interesting stories. 612 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 5: Jesse, I mean, he. 613 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 4: Had all kinds of really great stories about his day 614 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 4: growing up inn organized crime. He really took an interest 615 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 4: to me at first because I was an organized crime 616 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 4: guy out of Dallas, and. 617 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 5: You know, and JT was joke and he told me, he. 618 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 4: Said that us organized crime guy's got to stick together, 619 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 4: which was just fine with me because that aligned me 620 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 4: with one of. 621 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 5: The most respected in the joint. 622 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 4: Everybody respected JT go because JT had a lot of 623 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 4: street currency that he came in with. So as JT 624 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 4: and I got closer Jesse, he started telling me more 625 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,439 Speaker 4: stories about his days growing up in the Dallas mob. 626 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 4: And you know, I'm doing the math and I'm putting 627 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 4: the time frame together, and so I'm like, hey, JT, 628 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 4: what do you know about the jfk assassination? He said, 629 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 4: you mean the JFK hit. 630 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 5: So here we go. J T told me, without a doubt. 631 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 4: The stuff I'm gonna tell you now is quote from JT. 632 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 5: J T told me, without a. 633 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 4: Doubt that the mob killed j F. Kennedy, and he 634 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 4: told me a story about why. But before I get 635 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 4: to the story that he told me about the mob 636 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 4: being the people behind it, let me tell you some 637 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 4: of the else. Some of the other stuff he told 638 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 4: me at granular level that was going on in the 639 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 4: city of Dallas at the time. JT said that they 640 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 4: had a lot of cops the take in Dallas. He said, 641 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 4: they ran around and did crime with impunity the mob did. 642 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 4: He told me a story about JD. 643 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 5: Tippett. 644 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 4: Jesse, do you remember JD. 645 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 5: Tippett? I do, okay, So he told me a story 646 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 5: about JD. Tippet. 647 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 4: J T told me that Tippett was one of the 648 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 4: most reliable guys the mob had they worked with in 649 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 4: Dallas Police department. He told me a story specifically, this 650 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 4: is before JFK get tipped. This is the early sixties. 651 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 5: He said. 652 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 4: He and his crew were hitting a four sham shoe warehouse. 653 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 4: Cop car rolls up, sirens are wailing. His guys split 654 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 4: their run for it, but JK doesn't run because he 655 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 4: recognizes the guy behind the wheel. So he goes up 656 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 4: to the window, taps on the window. It's JD. 657 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 5: Tippett. 658 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 4: JT makes some small talk with Tippett, he said. Then 659 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 4: he asked Tippett what size shoe he wore. 660 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 5: Tippett told him. 661 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 4: J T yelled to his guys, loaded up the car 662 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 4: with this size shoe. He said, we must have loaded 663 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 4: fifty bucks of shoes into his car, and J JD. 664 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 4: Tippet drove away that night, no sirens and no no 665 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 4: sirens and no lights going on on the way leaving. 666 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 5: JT told me that he believed j. JD. 667 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 4: Tippett was sent to kill Olswald to tie up the 668 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 4: loose end and they would have known each other through 669 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 4: Jack Ruby because Jack Ruby was going to be the 670 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 4: connector with Oswald and with JD. 671 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 5: Tippett. 672 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 4: So JD. Tippett he believed, was sent to kill Ollswald 673 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 4: after the president was shot. But obviously forty five minutes 674 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 4: after the president was shot, Lee Harvey Olswald gets the 675 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 4: jump on JD. Tippet and shoots JD. 676 00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 5: Tippett. 677 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 4: But like j T told me, he said, how do 678 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 4: you think JD. Tippett knew where to be by the 679 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 4: boarding house where Lee Harvey Olsweald was staying. So I 680 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 4: got into the talk about the JFK assassination and he said, 681 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 4: you mean the JFK hit obviously because he's talking about 682 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 4: the mob did it. And he told first question I 683 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 4: have was, well, you think Lee Harvey Olswold was only shooter. 684 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 5: He goes, no, there were multiple. 685 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 4: Shooters and by his by his, by his estimation, he 686 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 4: felt like there were at least four shooters there. 687 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 5: But he said, dam and I knew at least one 688 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:29,879 Speaker 5: of the other shooters there that day. 689 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 4: So the day before the JFK hit, he runs into 690 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 4: Charles Harrelson in a bar in Dallas. Now, Charles Harrelson 691 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 4: is an infamous hit man. Charles Harrison actually went to 692 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 4: prison and died in prison for assassinating the federal judge 693 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy nine. And in fact, JT told me 694 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 4: a story also about Charles Harrison about before that hit too. 695 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 4: But he's telling me about running into Charles Harrison at 696 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 4: a bar in Dallas the. 697 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 5: Day before John F. Kennedy is shot. 698 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 4: And he said he saw Charlie in the bar and 699 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 4: he asked Charlie, said, hey, Charlie, what are you doing 700 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 4: in town. 701 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 5: Charlie said, I'm here on business. 702 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 4: JT said That's all I had to know, because Charlie's 703 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 4: business was killing people, so I understood what Charlie was 704 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 4: in town. J T also told me that a few 705 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 4: days before Kennedy was coming to town, his boss told 706 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 4: him get all the girls off the street. Now. JT's 707 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 4: job at the time he ran girls, guns and drugs 708 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 4: all over Dallas for the mob. So his boss is 709 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,439 Speaker 4: telling him to get the girls off the street. Something 710 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 4: big is going down. JT even pushed back on him 711 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 4: a little bit. He said, man, you know, if we 712 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 4: get all the girls off the street, you know, you know, 713 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 4: something bad could happen to him if they go out 714 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 4: there and freelance on their own. 715 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 5: Guys said, it doesn't matter, get them off the street. 716 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 5: Something big is going down. 717 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 4: So in November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, JF. Kennedy 718 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 4: is shot and killed in Dallas, Texas. The story JT 719 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 4: told me next Jesse was so wild and I've never 720 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 4: heard it anywhere else. I asked j T to write 721 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 4: it down for me and and he did, but he 722 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 4: gave me one instruction with it. He said, you can't 723 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 4: share this story until I'm bad, damn. So after I'm dead, 724 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 4: you can share the story I'm telling you. JT died 725 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,959 Speaker 4: on February twenty first, twenty twenty three. This book coming 726 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 4: out right now was the first opportunity to share this 727 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 4: letter that JT wrote me. And you know, honestly, Jesse, 728 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 4: I I didn't have any intention of coming out and 729 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 4: talk about this letter before the book comes out. It's 730 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 4: just the final chapter. The final chapter of the book 731 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 4: is called the bonus chapter. It's called JT's story. So 732 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 4: many people are fascinated with the character of JT. They 733 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 4: wanted more. He was actually a person that made an 734 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 4: appearance in my first book, The Change Agent, and people 735 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 4: wanted to know more about this guy. Where again, Jesse's storytellers, 736 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 4: we're fascinated by stories about true crime in prison. Who's 737 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 4: not fascinating America with mob stories. So the bonus chapter 738 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 4: at the end of Six Times in a Nickel is 739 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 4: about JT. And it has this letter that he wrote me. 740 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 4: So JT's telling me this is after the jfk assassination. 741 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 4: He's got the girls working the streets again, and he 742 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 4: gets a frantic call from one of his girls and 743 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 4: he goes and meets with her. She said, I got 744 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 4: a friend that's in this serious trouble. And this is 745 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 4: I'm paraphraser from the letter Jesse. So these are not 746 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 4: going to be exact quotes, but all this is coming 747 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 4: from JT. So JT talks to this girl, and she said, listen, 748 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 4: my friend is a burless dancer at Jack Ruby's club. 749 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 4: It's called the Carrotsel Club, famous burless club in Dallas. 750 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 5: So she's one of the burlest queens for Ruby. 751 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 4: And she was staying after tonight to clean out her 752 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 4: locker because she met an airline pilot and she was 753 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 4: going to go off and get married and leave the life. 754 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,479 Speaker 4: But as she was getting ready to leave, she heard 755 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 4: two people screaming in and it was in Jack Ruby's office. 756 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 4: And Jack Ruby's office is at the end of the 757 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 4: hallway and the stairwell to get down is right past 758 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 4: his office, so she has to go buy this office. 759 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 4: But in this letter, JT tells the story that this 760 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 4: girl overheard a conversation and it's two men screaming. 761 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 5: One of them is Jack Ruby. 762 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 4: One of them is Frank Costello, the head of the 763 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 4: New York Mob New York and Chicago guy. So Ruby 764 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 4: is telling Costello, no, I'm not gonna do it, man, 765 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 4: go find someone else, and Costello is telling him your 766 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 4: goal and to kill. 767 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 5: Lee Harvey Allswald at the Dallas Police headquarters. 768 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 4: You're going to do this for us, And she said, 769 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 4: Ruby was protesting saying why, I don't know why you 770 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 4: want me to do it, and Costello's telling him because 771 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 4: you're the only one that can basically get in there, 772 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 4: and we have someone on the inside waiting for you 773 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 4: and they know they're gonna let you in. You're gonna 774 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 4: go do this, and if you don't do it, Costello said, 775 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 4: we're going to kill that little dog here that we 776 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,959 Speaker 4: need dog you like and if you know anything about 777 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 4: Jack Ruby had this, we need dog. I think her 778 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 4: name was Sasha. 779 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, SHACKI actually left the. 780 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 4: Dog in the car when he killed All's Wald if 781 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 4: you read up on it. So Costello is telling you, 782 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 4: if you don't do this for us, we're gonna kill 783 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 4: your dog, then you don't want to know what we're 784 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 4: gonna do to you before we kill you. 785 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 5: But you're going to kill Lee Harvey Olswald. 786 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 4: You're going to do this now. And this girl realized 787 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 4: that she heard something she should not have heard, and 788 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 4: then JT's letter. She says she tried to get out 789 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 4: of there quietly, but a sound gave her away, and 790 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 4: now Ruby and Costello are chasing this girl down the stairs. 791 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 4: She runs outside of the car gar Cel Club and 792 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 4: waiting outside was a guy, a cab driver in the 793 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 4: cab reading the newspaper. She said, she jumped in the cab. 794 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 4: She screamed to the guy, go go go. He takes 795 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 4: off Costello and Ruby and all the guys are chasing 796 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 4: down the street. So this girl goes into hiding. JT's 797 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 4: girl is saying, listen, she wants to get out of here. 798 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 4: She wants to go to Waco. She's got a stepsister 799 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 4: in Waco that no one knows anything about. She just 800 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 4: wants out of this life. And JT is like, look, 801 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 4: I'm not gonna help her. The stuff that she heard 802 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 4: can get me killed. I don't want anything to do 803 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 4: with her. But she pleads with him, and JT's like, 804 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 4: all right, I'll help her. 805 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 5: So he goes. 806 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 4: First thing he says in the letter that he does, 807 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 4: he gets what a friend of it is that no 808 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 4: one in the mob knows. This friend's got a fast 809 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 4: car too. So he says, hey, look, let's let's take 810 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 4: your car. I need to bar your car. 811 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 5: And he goes and he picts this girl up where 812 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 5: she's hiding and he gets her in the car. And 813 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 5: this girl wants to stop and. 814 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 4: Get a ring a diamond ring of hers from a 815 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 4: friend of hers that works at one of the bars 816 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 4: in Dallas, and JT is trying to tell this girl, 817 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 4: let's get you to Waco, let's get you out out 818 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 4: of here. Forget that ring. You can get another ring 819 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 4: some other time, but she's insistent to get this ring. 820 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 4: So JT takes her by that bar and he says, listen, 821 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 4: you've got thirty minutes, and if you're not out in 822 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 4: thirty minutes, then I'm out of here. Well, in the letter, 823 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 4: Jay talks about this stalling and he's taking a long time, 824 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 4: taking longer than he thought he should. And he said 825 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 4: in the letter, as soon as the girl comes out 826 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 4: of the bar, all these Dallas squad cars come pulling up, 827 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 4: and they actually cuff this girl and shove in the 828 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 4: back of an unmarked police car and they drive away, 829 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 4: and the JT's about half a block back, and so 830 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 4: he follows this caravan in police cars down to the 831 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 4: Dallas Police station on Harwood, one of the Dallas police precincts. 832 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 4: JT's pretty smoop by this, but he drives off and 833 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 4: a couple hours later in the letter, he says he 834 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 4: calls their mob warrior God, they got that handles all 835 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 4: their mob business. Calls him up and he says, hey, listen, 836 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 4: there was a girl that was helping the night she 837 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,800 Speaker 4: got arrested. She got taken to the city jail on Harwood. 838 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 4: Can you can you call in there and see if 839 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 4: there's a way we can get her out here a bond, 840 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 4: JT said. The mob lawyer called him back and said, 841 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 4: forget about that girl. And JT was like, why you said, 842 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 4: Because the girl you're talking about hung herself tonight in 843 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 4: Dallas City jail with the nylons. Now, Jesse, if this 844 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 4: guy's telling the truth, and I don't think JT was 845 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,799 Speaker 4: lying to me. JT was a pretty neat guy. But 846 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 4: j T was a good Christian guy at the time 847 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 4: I met him, and he has nothing to gain by 848 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 4: lying about this. This is such a cranular story, right, 849 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 4: Why would a person that's so eager to live her 850 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 4: life and go off and get married to this airline 851 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,479 Speaker 4: pilot and start a new life over again. Why would 852 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 4: she hang herself in Dallas City jail. Obviously JT's implying 853 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 4: that someone else inside the jail help her hang herself, right, real? 854 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 3: How about that damon that was unbelievably interesting. Thank you, 855 00:44:47,719 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 3: my friend. All Right, we'll be back. Interesting stuff, isn't it. 856 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: Isn't it fun having these historical debates where you theorize 857 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: this and theorize that. Now, look, I realize still a 858 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: heavy moment to this day, all these years later. 859 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,240 Speaker 3: I wasn't even alive. Somebody murdered the American president. 860 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: It's worthwhile to dig into who, especially if the who 861 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: is the American government itself. That opens up a whole 862 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: new can of worms, doesn't it. 863 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 3: Anyway? 864 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed it. I most definitely did. We'll 865 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: do it again.