1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers. Since government conspiracies, history is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Well, hello, 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the ministry of stuff they don't 5 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: want you to know. They call me Matt and I 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: have no the illuminated one, brown shaving rama, Shama, Mama, mamada, 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: are doing that scene from Temple of Doom. It's I 8 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: was momentarily speaking in tongues forgive me, I was covering 9 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: my heart. I think that's uh, that's um just saying 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: kalim and then you're supposed to say, I'm num Sharbai. 11 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: Isn't that right? Oh? Yeah, I guess from Temple of Doom. Calm, Well, 12 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about a different kind of temple today. There 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: we go, not necessarily one of Doom, but you know potentially. Yeah, 14 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: they call me Ben you are you? This is uh 15 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: not the Indiana Jones Temple of Doom tribute show. This 16 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: is stuff they don't want you to know. And know. 17 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: Your segue was fantastic. What are we talking about today? Today? 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about a little something called prosperity theology or 19 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: I guess we could also think of it as televangelism. 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: Yes it Yeah, So here we go another religious episode. 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: It's not particularly religious. We're not talking about a religion 22 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: so much as we're examining some of the people operate 23 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: it within it and a movement the US that you 24 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: have maybe heard about. And yeah, I think televangelism absolutely 25 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: ties into this. We hear the phrase evangelists, but what 26 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: does that mean. It's a person who seeks to convert 27 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: other people to a certain faith. That is also known 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: as proselytizing. It's typically used in a Christian context here 29 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: in the West. You know, we don't hear much about 30 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: Buddhist evangelists, so we don't even know if that's a thing. 31 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: So the connotation here involves public speaking and or performance. 32 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: So while uh, for instance, our super producer Casey Pegram 33 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: for today, we just have a stable of superproducers these 34 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: days in the money, a posse of a super positive 35 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: superproducers in a stable. So we'll pick on Casey a 36 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: little bit and use him as an example. If Casey 37 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: was proselytizing people, he might just decide to write a letter, 38 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, dear, let's pick some 39 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: one random dear al Franken or Donald Trump or whomever. Uh, 40 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: I sincerely believe in this particular thing, and I think 41 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: you should too, you know, and it could be any 42 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: sort of um spiritual idea. So it's a solicitation basically. Yeah, 43 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: it's a solicitation in that regard. And that's probably a 44 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: very polite letter because Casey is a very talented writer. Yeah. 45 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: We and we just had Dragon Con here and you 46 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: will always see at least something that I see every 47 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: year during dragon Con are evangelists who are proselytizing in 48 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: the streets with big signs, you know, talking about Christianity 49 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: and come to Jesus and all that. It's it's a 50 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: thing you've probably seen. Yeah, they were a little lazier 51 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: this year. I saw one dude that just had a 52 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: boom box that was playing a message on loop and 53 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: he just stood there holding the song. He's there all weekend. 54 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's hard work. He can't sit down, 55 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: maybe as lunch break or something. Yeah, it seemed a 56 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: little phoned into me. Which there was a yelp for 57 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: a street corner protests that would be great. So evangelism 58 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: is a little bit more in your face. That's the connotation. Uh, 59 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: we're Casey Um practicing a type of proselytization called evangelism. 60 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: He would maybe go the whole nine, you know, a 61 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: linen suit, a tent that travels across the sun belt. 62 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: Super producer Casey Pegram's Powerhouse of Signs, Wonders and deliverance. 63 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm actually selling myself on this. What do you What 64 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: do you think? Casey? Okay, we got a thumbs up, 65 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: and uh, you're you're familiar with this in fiction and 66 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: you're familiar with this um with the televised version of it, 67 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: which called televangelists. Great example would be in the show Carnival. 68 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: There there is a whole traveling preacher scenario where they 69 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: set up a tent and you know people um speaking 70 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: tongues and sometimes get the Holy Spirit in them, laying 71 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: hands and all of that. A lot of that old 72 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: school kind of showmanship that goes into this idea of evangelism. Yeah, 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: and I also remember one of my favorite creepy versions 74 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: of it is the tent revival preacher in True Detective 75 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: Season one, who has this rambling monologue that is super 76 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: love crafty and a sinister but people are treating it 77 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: as though you know, they were in listening to a 78 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: sermon on the gospel, And isn't that just one appearance 79 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: of that guy? Like, if that's it, I think he 80 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: comes back, but he's very briefly. You've never seen preachy, 81 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: But boy does it ever set that doom. He sees 82 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: your true face, he sees it reminds me of when 83 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: I saw a third eye blind. And he's talking about 84 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: seeing people's true faces, the singer, and he says, you 85 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: know what, I want to see your true face. And 86 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: when I see him, you know what they're gonna be saying. 87 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: They're gonna say, f Yeah. Well, it turns out it's 88 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: a bit he does. It's a little bit of a 89 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: street preacher kind of vibe. So he is perhaps also 90 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: proselytizing for the Church of Third Eye Blind. Uh. The 91 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: term evangelism derives from Uh biblical sources in or modern connotation. 92 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: Started as a Greek word. It originally meant something like 93 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: messenger of good news, which is why you would hear 94 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: people say, have you heard the good news? And that's 95 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: all about Jesus died for your sins and came back. 96 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: And if you believe in him then you get to 97 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: go to heaven. That's or it's a Geico commercial. Okay, 98 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: it's possible. It's just we live in a weird time, right. Yeah. 99 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: So we've got evangelical Christianity. Right. You'll often hear evangelism 100 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: assigned to that. And so, for instance, there could be 101 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: a a Methodist evangelist, right, there could be any any 102 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: degree of Protestant. They've got a several doctrinal things in common. 103 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: One of the biggest, of course, is the emphasis on 104 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: the born again nature of religious salvation. Yes, right, and 105 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: here in the United States we've had really a special 106 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: relationship with evangelism. It's it's just thrived here in this country. Um, 107 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean across the world as well, but here, I 108 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: would say, at least from my research and what I've seen, 109 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: it just thrives. Why do you think that is? That's 110 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: a great question. I think maybe it's just where I 111 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe it matches up with the American dream 112 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,239 Speaker 1: in some way. Yeah, the idea of rebirth. Perhaps. Yeah, 113 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like I can culturally tie 114 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: it into some things. But yeah, I feel like there's 115 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: a reason that America is such a rich cultural soil 116 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: for this sort of stuff. But also this has expanded 117 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: now across the world. Wherever there are Protestants, they're also 118 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: going to be evangelical UM organizations and a huge political 119 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: movement I suppose you could call it, or at least 120 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: a big driver of political change the Republican Party specifically. Yeah, 121 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: and and also there's uh, I don't want to leave 122 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church out. The thing we have to remember, 123 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: which may strike some some of us who are more 124 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: secular as surprising, is that although multiple denominations of a 125 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: given religion exists, in this case Christianity, with in those denominations, 126 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: there are movements right and those movements, as Noel said, 127 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: can often drastically affect the political landscape. In Central America, uh. 128 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: And in South America there is there was a movement 129 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: called Liberation Theology which these which totally struck the more 130 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: hawkish right wing part of the American government as a 131 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: threat because there are these left wing uh Catholic priest 132 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: who are saying, well, this is how we think Christianity 133 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: should be applied toward a more socialist environment, which is 134 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: you know, a big no, no, it's a big invitation 135 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: to the US to metal in countries affairs. But yeah, 136 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: they these um these genres or maybe denominations. Movements is 137 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: probably the best word, or not always created equally, like 138 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: some individual evangelical preachers have reached the pinnacle of start 139 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: him and success, you know, Casey Pegrum's Powerhouse of Signs, 140 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: Wonders and what was the other one? It's a long name. 141 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: You should have made it such a long name. And 142 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: some movements blossom only to enter a decline in later years. 143 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: One especially prominent here in the US and controversial type 144 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: of Christian belief system is known as prosperity theology. You 145 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: might not have heard the term before, you have definitely 146 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: heard of the women and men preaching it at the 147 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: top of the show. Yes, so hopefully they've heard it 148 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: at least once. Hopefully we've heard it at least once. Wait, 149 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: what's the idea here? So the idea here is that God, 150 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: what God wants for you is to be well like, 151 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: to be healthy, and to be financially blessed. God wants 152 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: that for you. The problem is with you. It's with 153 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: your faith. You don't have enough faith you you You've 154 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: got to have that. You've got to you have to 155 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: send money and donations to these places to essentially increase 156 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: your faith in a way like I'm going to give 157 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: this money in faith to a ministry and then I 158 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: am going to receive something back from that. I'm gonna 159 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,599 Speaker 1: get my stuff back tenfold from God my blessings, or 160 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: at least that's according to the leaders of these particular denominations, 161 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: right then. Uh, yeah, So this is the idea. I 162 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: think that's a good summation there. Met. The idea is 163 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: that personal faith, what's called positive speech or positive confession, 164 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: and donations to religious causes will be repaid in terms 165 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: in material and literal terms, right as well as spiritual. 166 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: So it's not just karma, it's like cash. Yeah, yeah, 167 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: yeah exactly. And the Bible is portrayed in a lot 168 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: of prosperity theology as a contract between God and humans 169 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: very if then proposition, if humans have faith in God, 170 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: God will deliver see purity and prosperity. Uh. Sickness and poverty, 171 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, are viewed as curses that can be broken 172 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: by the power of faith. That's sort of the power 173 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: of positive thinking. And what I think what a lot 174 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: of people may be surprised to learn about this movement 175 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: is that it's built on a secular concept, the Secret. Basically, yeah, 176 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: it's built on a concept old and that the Secret 177 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: also borrows from called new Thought. It's popular in the 178 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: late nineteenth thirly twentieth century, and it was pretty much, Yeah, 179 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: the modern interpretation would be The Secret, that's the thing, 180 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: that's it's all about new Thought. It's it was a 181 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: book that was written that essentially says, you put positive 182 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: thoughts out into the world and you can make them real. 183 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: Anything that you truly believe you can make happen essentially, 184 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: which again is a later interpretation of the original new 185 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: Thought thing right from the eighteen late eighteen hundreds. Um, 186 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: so The Secret doesn't repackage this for a long time. 187 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: I just remember seeing that book everywhere, and I've never 188 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: had any idea what it was. It's because Oprah mentioned it, 189 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: because Oprah Winfrey said it well. The idea, the philosophy 190 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: behind New Thought was that the key to health and 191 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: wealth acquisition is thinking, visualizing, and speaking the right words. 192 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: And not all of the New Thought proponents or fans 193 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: were Christian, but they all generally held that the individual 194 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: human being had divinity and that they could affect physical 195 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: change through their mental state. Mind over matters the power 196 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: of positive thinking exactly, and that's what the secret is, 197 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: got it? More or less? I hope we didn't ruin 198 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: the book. Can you spoil a book like that? Kind 199 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: of you? You're supposed to buy it, that's the whole 200 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: point of the book. Yeah, but I mean surely no. 201 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: Dreading it will give you more benefit than just hearing us. 202 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: You know. Well, well you could also you could buy it, 203 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: or you could just think positively that it's already in 204 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: your house, let me know what happens, or just that think, 205 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: imagine and visualize that you've already read it now, I know, 206 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not. I don't mean to sound rude. There 207 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: are quantitative studies that prove the at least the medical 208 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: effects of positive thinking in terms of recuperation rates, stuff 209 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: like that. Um, but we're talking mind control here, right. 210 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: In other words, if you could correctly channel your mental energy, 211 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: you could harness material results almost, you know, very quickly. 212 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: A man named Norman Vincent Peel was pastor of place 213 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: called Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, and he 214 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: popularized this idea in these techniques in America with his 215 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: book The Power of Positive Thinking, which I know you've 216 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: heard of his real book. I could have written that book, 217 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: and I just came up with that a minute ago. 218 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: My friend's mom had that book on her shelf when 219 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: I was in middle school, Rember, I never touched it. Oh, 220 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: they wouldn't let you touch it. No, I just been 221 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: shrined in glass. I can just see it seeing there 222 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: with a bunch of other self self help stuff, just 223 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: all about you know, being positive and getting what you want. 224 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: We should write a self help book. Yeah, I can 225 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: write one. It feels like it'd be easy. It feels 226 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: like it'd be easy to write a self help book, 227 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: but really difficult to write a good one. That's exactly exactly, 228 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: very much my friend. Growing up, my dad just had 229 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: like all the Stephen King books and I didn't read 230 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: those either because that was too scarred. Yeah, and read 231 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: those until high school. Oh man, which you guys still 232 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: down to go see it at four o'clock today, Yes, 233 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: that's true. We're going to go have an adventure. We're 234 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: gonna go see a team adventure and we'll have to 235 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: cover my ears. Has anyone seen it yet? I have? Oh? Sorry, 236 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: that you're on the ball kind of person I am. 237 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: You can just you warned me about the jump scares. Okay, okay, okay, 238 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: you give me a sharp elbow to the rib with something. 239 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: Do you want me to sit behind you and just 240 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: occasionally lean in and go here it comes? We could 241 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: get that app that's just children laughing app. It should 242 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: be uh, you're welcome technology. Uh. I guess you're welcome 243 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: venture capitalists. Sorry, we've got a little bit off the rails. 244 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: Please let us know what you think of it. Obviously 245 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: we're excited to go see the film. So the Power 246 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: Positive Thinking Seminal book. In books from this time period, 247 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: we can discern some of the key recurring elements of 248 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: what would we can see the d NA ultimately what 249 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: would become prosperity Gospel. Speaking the right words, invoking a 250 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: universal law of success with the words, and having faith 251 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: in oneself and those abilities. So a lot of these 252 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: ideas influenced, among tons of others. E. W. Kenyon, who 253 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: was an evangelist and the founder of the Bethel Bible Institute. 254 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: So his particular approach to theology was the basis for 255 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: one of the Prosperity Gospel's most particular features. Um, speaking 256 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: the right words to bring about a new reality manifesting. 257 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: You know, what you believe, what you wish to be true. Um, 258 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: so what you confess you possess. It's kind of like 259 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: a reverse version of like The Traveler and Ghostbusters, or 260 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: actually full circle like it, you know, where the kids 261 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: see the monster as whatever they fear the most. This 262 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: is like a positive version of that. I could go 263 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, I wanted to bring it, you know. Yeah, 264 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: Kiyan is a link to the popular prosperity preachers that 265 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: formed the foundation of the modern prosperity gospel movement. Earlier, 266 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: we had asked about why this took such strong route. 267 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm starting to see it a little. Why it floor 268 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: It's quintessentially American and individualist. There's this idea that each 269 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: person is responsible for her or his own happiness or 270 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, whatever their gender might be, and their health 271 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: and their situation in life. And then applying mental energy 272 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: in the appropriate direction is in and of itself sufficient 273 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: to cure any ills. The idea of positive thinking as 274 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: a panacea, but then also bootstraps. But then also bootstraps. 275 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: So there. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because There 276 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: are a couple of other contributing concepts in play here. 277 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: There's pick yourself up by your yeah, yeah, back when 278 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: people always have bootstraps, yeah, to the little loops at 279 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: the top. I honestly don't know what they hang up 280 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: on a peg? Yeah sure, yea, they definitely feel they're 281 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: pulling them on. For pulling them on, it's like that. 282 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: If they're at the back, I think, uh, you can 283 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: hang them places right by the straps boot hangers. Man, hey, 284 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: right in and let us know how you use your bootstraps. 285 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: Do you hang your boots or do you just do 286 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: you just pull them like a tab so you can 287 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: pop your heel in and bat. Well, what does the bootstrapping? 288 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: Let's get into this. So the idea here is that 289 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: there are two as as I said, there are two 290 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: contributing concepts in play. In addition to this philosophical concept 291 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: that you thought, there's the idea of capitalism, more specifically, 292 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: the way a lot of Western culture idolizes the Protestant 293 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: work ethics so called. In very important author named Max 294 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: Feber published The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, 295 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: and in this he said specifically that Protestants have a 296 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: different approach to labor and that this approach to labor 297 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: is uh crucial to the development of capitalism and industrialization. 298 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: He mainly thought about group that is that were called 299 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: the Calvinist Right, and they believed in this idea of predestination, 300 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: which is a really cool and depressing concept. The idea 301 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: was a flat circle idea, how so that God like 302 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: everything exists and was created as God created it. So 303 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: essentially God knows who's going to heaven, who's going to hell, like, 304 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: who's gonna be good, who's gonna write You're born damned 305 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: or safe? And no free will? Right essentially, yeah, no 306 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: free are like automatons that are just set on a path, 307 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: a predetermined path, and that is all we can possibly achieve. 308 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: And we can still get in uh, we can still 309 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 1: get in trouble though that's also the worst. But if 310 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: you want to get into um the mindset of some 311 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: of this predestination um and just the religious atmosphere of 312 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: the time, probably some of the most strange and terrifying 313 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: things to read are old sermons. One of the bangers 314 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: of this, one of the breakout singles is a piece 315 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: called Sinners, and they end of an angry God and 316 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: it's it's terrified, right. This uh sermon contains ten considerations 317 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: that are all pretty pretty much downers. Uh. God may 318 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: cast wicked men into hell at any given moment, several 319 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: very specific things about the wicked and uh, the the 320 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: idea that God is like this anti hero and in 321 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: action film and it's coming for you. And just just 322 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: let you know how it ends. Uh. Okay to spoil this, 323 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 1: do you think? I think so. I think it's been 324 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: out for stat limitations. Okay, to spoiled. Okay, all right? 325 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: From Jonathan Edwards that centers in the hand of the 326 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: angry guy. It ends like this. Therefore, let everyone that 327 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: is out of Christ now awake and fly from the 328 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now 329 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation. Let 330 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: everyone fly out of sodom haste and escape for your lives. 331 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: Look not behind you, Escape to the mountain lest you 332 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: be consumed. Beautiful. I know, I don't know if they 333 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: like pause for a band to play, if everybody just 334 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: sort of files out. Well, here's the thing. There are 335 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: a lot of humans on this planet. Even now that 336 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: I'm assuming take that very seriously. When I think the 337 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: evangelicals in general are sort of the equivalent of like 338 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: strict constitutional constructionists, where it's like the Bible is to 339 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: be taken pretty literally, and a lot of their tenants 340 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: come from specific passages, even in terms of tithing, which 341 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: we'll get into a little later. And in in uh 342 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: Max Weber's idea about the Protestant work ethic, he argues 343 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: that Protestants were looking for outward signs of God's favor money, 344 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: material goods, and for ways to express inward virtue, that 345 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: being hard work, which those bootstraps that would be the 346 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: inward virtue, like working working diligently to better yourself shows 347 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: your shows your inner goodness, and then the devotion, right, 348 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: and then that devote and that reward has shown in 349 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: like you know, your physical success, and if you believe 350 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: that you're predetermined to be good, right, So if you're 351 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: doing good things, it's almost that you have to believe 352 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: that you are predetermined to be good. So it's this 353 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: interesting cycle feedback. Yeah, exactly. And so today this interpretation 354 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: is still the subject of a lot of debate, but 355 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: it's a popular perspective. And when we come back we'll 356 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: tell you about the final contributing thread to the formation 357 00:22:52,480 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: of prosperity theology. We've returned. We made it. Do you 358 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: guys have a good break? Yeah. We talked a little 359 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: more about centers in the hand of Angry God, which 360 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: is just that guy is writing fire there um the 361 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: final contribution to the DNA of what we call prosperity 362 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: theology today, it's the development of charismatic Pentecostal churches in 363 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: the US. This is an umbrella term for a decentralized 364 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: group of churches. We're talking like hundreds and hundreds of denominations, 365 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: over seven hundred. They're characterized by an emphasis on what's 366 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: known as spiritual gifts or charisms, from which the term 367 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: charismatic is drawn. A worshiper might experience, for example, the 368 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: gift of faith healing, right, or uh, gloss alalia, which 369 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: is the fancy dressed up with the tie word. Everything 370 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: sounds like glossa la la la la la for speaking 371 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: in tongues, right. I love the word. It's fun to say. 372 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: When you say glass, you say it repeatedly, it's kind 373 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: of sounds like you're talking to form follows function. It's 374 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: kind of like ulu late. I don't know that one, 375 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: but I love it. That's when people go oh w 376 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: w wa. It's a word that describes very specific sound, 377 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: like when you go, oh, I can't do it. My 378 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: throat's a little messed up. But I think it, you know, 379 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: like wa wa. That was a little high for me, 380 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: just to get back into this. The tradition of worship 381 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: in this way, it meant for the believer that God 382 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: will manifest in some concrete way to the fateful the 383 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: people who are worshiping. So you're physically going to have 384 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: something happen when you're thinking about God and worshiping God 385 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: in your mind. Do you have an example? Yeah, Well, 386 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: those are the examples of the speaking in tongues or 387 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: the running feelings handling. Yeah. Yeah. Also, so like when 388 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: you see somebody kind of like going into convulsions or whatever, 389 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: or like someone's the preachers laying hands and then all 390 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: of a sudden they start, like, you know, touching you. 391 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: So in addition, the decentralized nature of these churches means 392 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: that there's room for individual leaders to become sort of 393 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: the focus of personality based organizations. Many of these UH 394 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: officials or preachers might practice faith healing or similar practices, 395 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: and they would build up these very devoted UH personal 396 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: followings with this, with these three ideas right Protestant work ethic, 397 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: new thought philosophy, and UH charismatic Pentecostal preaching. With these 398 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: three kind of vultronning and captain planeting together, prosperity theology 399 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: bubbles to the surface. And it started like the work 400 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: ethic Max Weber describes as a way to judge, sify 401 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: the big elephant in the room of most human civilizations. 402 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: During the Gilded Age in the US, it came around 403 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: to justify why some people were rich and others any 404 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: many more were poor. I love this next quote. We've 405 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: got an early prosperity Gospel proponent, the Baptist preacher Russell H. Conwell, 406 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: Oh boy, get it a little on the nose um 407 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: he told his mostly poor congregation in nineteen fifteen. Quote, 408 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: I say you ought to be rich, You have no 409 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: right to be poor. Why the very idea of the 410 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: nerve running around with no shoes, impoverishing left and right, 411 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: what's next? Pick yourself up by your bootstrap exactly. He's punishing, 412 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: or he's saying that you were being punished because of 413 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: your failures, not because of some larger structural inequality that's 414 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: keeping these people in a state of and this this 415 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: kind of interpreting Asian regardless value feel about it. It 416 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: went pretty far, and it was pretty well known. God 417 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: was occasionally portrayed as a banker dispensing money material goods 418 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: to the deserving, and Jesus Christ, as some was seen 419 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: as the first and best capitalist. It's a very modern 420 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: spin on very very old stories, and it took off 421 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: in some circles, and today prosperity theology has a pretty 422 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: significant amount of support. In two thousand and six, a 423 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: pull from The Times found that seventeen percent of American 424 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: Christians identify explicitly like, yes, I am part of prosperity theology. 425 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: That means that there's a good chance that a number 426 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: of people having this conversation with us and listening would 427 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: identify themselves in that way a little less than one 428 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: out of five. Well that's really great. Later on, we're 429 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: gonna need to hear from you and we'll we'll get 430 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, absolutely, because again, not all, not all 431 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: churches practicing prosperity theology are the same, or I would 432 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: even say in some cases remotely related. Right, So of 433 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: the American Christians polls believe that if you give your 434 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: money to God, God will bless you with more money, 435 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: and a full six agree with the more general idea 436 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: that God wants people to be prosperous. However, mainstream evangelicals 437 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: are a lot of them, can't you gotta generalize a 438 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: little bit? They consider this prosperity theology to be a 439 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: heresy in a way, something not of the true faith. 440 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: And why here's where it gets crazy. There are a 441 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: lot of critics. H they don't believe the official stance 442 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: of the proponents, and instead of seeing them as motivated 443 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: or motivational religious figures, those skeptical prosperity theology see these 444 00:28:52,680 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: people as essentially con artists. Conway Twitties. Did you know, 445 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: and this is a sidebar, do you know in Nashville? 446 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: I think it was Nashville, there was a thing that 447 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: would spring up like a seasonal amusement park. It was 448 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: called Twitty City, and it was Conway Twitty And they 449 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: also had the rights to like the tweet tweety bird cartoon, 450 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, like the Yellow Bird City, and they would 451 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: call it Twitty City. I thought, yeah, I is that 452 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: the one that's the one, that's the one. I would 453 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: think six Flags would have that unlock. Yeah, that would 454 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: make a lot more sense. Must be some kind of 455 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: must be some kind of backroom deal going on between 456 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: Twitty and Yeah. It was a different, different world back then. 457 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: I got a camel license there. For some reason, they 458 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: had a thing where you could ride camels like a 459 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: breeding license test. No, I just said, I got a 460 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: license to operate a camel. Maybe they have the Renaissance 461 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: Fair here you don't have to have a license though. 462 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: That's pretty intense. No, I was. I think it. I 463 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: was a kid and they're like, oh, here you go, 464 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: just a cute thing. Yeah, I don't think it was. 465 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't think it would be a situation where we 466 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: were the later on an airplane or a boat and 467 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: someone goes, oh, no, is there a camel operator in 468 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: the house. You have that covered. Um. Before we get 469 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: too deep into this, I just want to point out 470 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 1: that there are degrees of this stuff too, and we're 471 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: going to talk about some of the extreme ones upfront, 472 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: and then you know, as it's a lot of this 473 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: stuff filters into more mainstream kind of accepted religious culture 474 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: as well, but we're going to kind of start with 475 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: some of the more extreme ones. And we're not saying 476 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: that tithing or giving to your faith or giving to 477 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: your church is inherently a bad thing at all. It's 478 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: a personal choice. But we're gonna start with some examples 479 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: where I don't think anyone would argue that there is 480 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of ill intent, but there's at least 481 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: some abuse going on of some sorts. Well, as we 482 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: said before, as we all I say, we're not going 483 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: to tell you what to believe or interfere with your 484 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: own spiritual practices. It's a very personal and private matter. 485 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: And we did say, I think we said earlier in 486 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: the show too, that these these movements are not created equally, 487 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: and uh, in some cases, what was the language they used, 488 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: they might not even be remotely related. They believe in 489 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: health and wealth, but a very different ideas of how 490 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: to get there. And and to that point, as we 491 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: said before, a lot of the critics, some of the 492 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: strongest critics, come from the church. Prosperity theology is certainly 493 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: not a part of mainstream evangelicalism. In fact, evangelicals have 494 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: condemned for a large part Prosperity Gospels to know in 495 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: certain terms. Just for the past few decades, even you'll 496 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: hear some of the loudest criticism of this stuff, along 497 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: with its most well known practitioners like good old Joel Austin, 498 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: probably one of the most successful religious figures of his 499 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: sort currently and caught some bad press recently in the 500 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: wake of Hurricane Harvey because his staff said that the 501 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: church was inaccessible with due to flooding, and that turned out, 502 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: of course, not to be the case. You know, I 503 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: don't I don't pretend to know the exact particulars of 504 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: what went on at that church for that thing, but man, 505 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: it is surprising to see how quickly social media can 506 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: blow something like that up, where just you know, a 507 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: couple of thousand retweets and oh, man, Joel Austin has 508 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: got to go on the news. The Internet has always 509 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: been a fickle mistress with capricious favors, right. So yeah, 510 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: there's a guy named Gordon Fee, a prominent Pentecostal scholar, 511 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: who wrote a book called The Disease of Health and 512 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: Wealth Gospels. Uh, there's a Calvinist pastor named John Piper 513 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: who said the prosperity gospel will not make anyone praise Jesus. 514 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: It will make people praise prosperity. It's like an all 515 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: you're creating. Yeah, and there's a Utah pastor named Rick 516 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: Henderson who said Joel Austin frequently misunderstands important matters of 517 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: faith and doctrine. And this that last criticism seems to 518 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: be based more on the the nuts and bolts of 519 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: knowing the Bible, right I do. Also, while we were 520 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: mentioning books, want to highlight Blessed, a History of the 521 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: American Prosperity Gospel by Kate Boehler. Yeah, it's it's it's monographic. 522 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: It's probably the best work of its kind out currently, 523 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: if you'd like to read more. Secular forces also criticized 524 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: prosperity theology and accuse it of exploiting the poor. This 525 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: accusation is a response to prosperity theology is heavy, and 526 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: we mean heavy emphasis on tithing. So in prosperity theology, 527 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: tithing or giving money to the church should ideally be 528 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: someone's first fruits, their initial earnings. For so, if we 529 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: want to go uh, if if we want to be 530 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: brass tacks about it and more specific, then that would 531 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: mean of your gross income your net income tim percent 532 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: of your pre tax So Uncle Sam comes second, Uncle 533 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: Sam comes second, Sally May comes third. Credit card debt, 534 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: UH alimony payments, food mortgages, medical debt, which is one 535 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: of the primary causes of UH financial personal disaster in 536 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: this country. So this money, this tithing is seen as 537 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: an investment. By showing faith, parishioners could have a hundredfold 538 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: return on their investment. This is a reference to a 539 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: verse in the Gospel of Mark about those who suffer 540 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: for Christ receiving a hundredfold what they had lost. In 541 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: his book Laws of Prosperity, Ken Copeland have rights. Do 542 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and 543 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: let God multiply it back to you. No bank in 544 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: the world offers this kind of return. Praise the Lord. 545 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: From this perspective, tithing is a financially responsible thing to 546 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: do that sounds like a like a like a hot deal. 547 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: It really does, doesn't it You just it just feels 548 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: so predatory when you think about people that might be 549 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: watching a program at a certain time on television, the 550 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: elderly a lot of times, but there may also be 551 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: cases where human psychology is a tricky thing. There may 552 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: also be cases where people believe this has worked for them. 553 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: People think, well, I gave my last five dollars as 554 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: seed prayer money, and immediately afterwards I got that job 555 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: or that inheritance, or I've found the straps on my 556 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: boots and it turns out they work, you know. And 557 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: it's it's also a self fulfilling prophecy though for you know, 558 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: the more wealthy. I would say, right, so if you're 559 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: like tithing and that's a big part of your life 560 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: and you've you've been doing it for a long time, 561 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: you could argue that accounts for your continued prosperity and success. 562 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: Whereas I think that I would be interested to see 563 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: the offset between donations by wealthy UM church members versus 564 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, more lower class, middle middle to lower class 565 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: members and how those smaller donations add up and if 566 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: they equal, if not exceed, that of the very wealthy contributions, 567 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: because I would say, you know, the the hook is, 568 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: I'm not doing so well. I need to give what 569 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: little money I have in order to do better. So 570 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: it's like you gotta spend money to make money, right, 571 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: That just checks out. That's just business. Can I just 572 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: just really quickly interject a personal thing. Of course, going 573 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: to church as a kid, I would notice, you know, 574 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: I wasn't really paying attention to this, but I would 575 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: notice that a couple of times a year there would 576 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: be a prosperity just a sermon that was all based 577 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: on prosperity, and it was all about tithing. It was 578 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: about why you have to do it, why you should 579 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: or yeah, why you should do it, and why you 580 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: kind of have to do it. Faith. I was Methodist 581 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: UM but and then became nondenominational, but it never changed. 582 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: It never changed. There was always this big push to 583 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: make sure you're giving X amount of your money to 584 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: the church at all times. It's like Pledge Drive week 585 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: on NPR. It's exactly like that, isn't it. Well, yeah, 586 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: more ways than one. Because a church depends upon its 587 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: congregation absolute prisoners. So you know, I think there's nothing 588 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: wrong with having to support that organization. I guess what 589 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: I'm saying is that it's so normalized for anyone who 590 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: has been going to any kind of church for any 591 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: amount of time that the jump to prosperity theology I 592 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: don't think is that far. Oh I see what you're saying, Okay, 593 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: and that's what I'm saying at the top of this 594 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: section too. It's like they're extreme examples, but this these 595 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: concepts trickled down into more accepted mainstream like what you're 596 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: talking about. Like, I don't think they were pushing that 597 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: line every day, and they certainly wanted to remind you, 598 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: give you a little kick in the pants, Like the 599 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,919 Speaker 1: NPR Pledge Drive. You know that, Hey, this stuff doesn't 600 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: come for free, you know, he help us out. Yeah, 601 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: I always feel sorry for the folks on the NPR 602 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: Pledge Drives. Towards the end, you could tell they're really 603 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: feeling it because people who don't write into them all 604 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: year right into him during the Pledge Drive, going, I 605 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: can't believe you're doing the Pledge Drive. This is not 606 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: what I had my radio on for what when I 607 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: used to work for public radio, I had to do 608 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: little spots like that for the Pledge Drive And it's 609 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: very specific language. We always had to end them with 610 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: and thank you. Yeah, it's kind of creepy. But like 611 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: we had like these very strategic meetings where like we 612 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: have the person that headed up the Pledge Drive, like 613 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: helping shake the language for the whole thing and like 614 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: to make it most effective and all this stuff. And 615 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: the thing they do now is they, hey, help us 616 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: meet our goal early and we'll end the pledge drive. 617 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: We're holding the good shows hostage. Yeah. So, uh so 618 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: we do see this stuff occurring. And that's not the 619 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,959 Speaker 1: only criticism. There's also a related criticism, uh, concerning tax exemptions. 620 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: This is a real hot button issue here in the US. 621 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: Like almost any other religious institution in the States, organizations 622 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: touting prosperity theology do not have to pay taxes. Yeah. 623 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: One of my favorite criticisms of this was a couple 624 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: of years back in John Oliver on his Just Fantastic 625 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: Show Last Week's Tonight formed the Church of Our Lady 626 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: of Perpetual Exemption, which was entirely stated only to be 627 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: a church to avoid paying taxes. Yeah, and uh, it 628 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: actually made a ton of money. They were sent all 629 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: kinds of donations, including some including jars of semen. You 630 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: could just say there was the sex sexual seeds and 631 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 1: then sex toys, jars of semen, and cash and heavily 632 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: featured in that Segmently you're talk about was one of 633 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: your favorite prosperity theologian lists. Yes, that is correct, Kreflo 634 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: Dollar here in Atlanta, Kreflo Dollar, prosperity theologian who maintains 635 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: that Kreflo Dollar is his reel and god given name. Astely, 636 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: I just want you to know that, he says that 637 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: is his real name. And he needs those planes. You 638 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: guys send in your money. He needs those planes. So 639 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: not to get too far into my fascination with this person, 640 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: but this is a person who made the national headlines 641 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: in in the States when he had a fundraising drive 642 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: to buy a new private plane for the purposes of 643 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: spreading the gospel. There was a previously owned private plane. Uh. 644 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: Their side of the story is that it was unsafe 645 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: and out of shape. So they're gonna buy a new one, 646 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: right U. And he did something brilliant in the in 647 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: his speaking. Okay, he doesn't ask people to donate. He 648 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: asked them to believe in God. So he says, you know, 649 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: I need this many people to believe in God for 650 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: fifty fifty dollars, you know. And then and then people 651 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: who are opponents are therefore telling this guy and his 652 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: prisoners that they cannot believe in God. They're telling me 653 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: that I can't believe in God for a house, for car, 654 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: for new job. Well, I'm gonna believe even more now 655 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: it's time for double x amount of people to give 656 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: or something like that. So that's fascinating and wow, there 657 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: are stories to the side, like they say that the 658 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: plane was unsafe to fly and that they needed the 659 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: plane right. Uh. Critics also believe that preachers and prosperity 660 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: theology movement are misusing church funds, squirreling donations away in 661 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: personal bank accounts, spending money meant for the church on 662 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: lavish personal items. You know, Rolls Royce's high end cars, uh, 663 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: luxury living situations. But he talks about that. He like 664 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: hypes up his his exorbitant wealth and talks about how 665 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: he deserves it and barely shies away from the fact 666 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: that his followers are paying for it. Don't take my 667 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: word for it. Let's listen to a little sample of 668 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: Kreflo dollar in action on evil pursue with sinners, but 669 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: to the righteous, goods shall be repaid. I'm telling you 670 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: this year has been crowned with goodness, and God Almighty 671 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: has our date and pre arranged for you and I 672 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: to live the good life. So I want you to 673 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: get ready. If you're not living the good life, get ready, 674 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: God says. Here he getting ready to repay the right 675 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: says with some good and Mr Dollar is not the 676 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: only one. Let's go back to just one of my 677 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: favorite prosperity ministers. Do you have a favorite too, He's 678 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: absolutely my favorite. I grew up with him watching television 679 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: as a kid before school. As gentleman's name is Robert Tilton. 680 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: He started out in seventy four, well before I was born, 681 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,240 Speaker 1: but he grew his ministry into one of the largest 682 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: in the country by the nineties. And guess what, He's 683 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: got a website and still going strong today. He has 684 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: like a wive live webcast that he does. I have 685 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: vivid memories of this guy watching on TV. He was fascinating. 686 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: He would speak about all these modern day miracles that 687 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: could come true in your life. All you had to 688 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: do was have faith and donate. He would also speak 689 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: in tongues quite regularly, and he would call out somebody 690 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: like he would. This was on regular TVs television between 691 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 1: stuff in the mornings in commercial time before the first 692 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,800 Speaker 1: commercial has come on at like five or six or 693 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: something like that, Yeah, where are you up at five hand? 694 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: My mom was a teacher, so I was. I was 695 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: at school really early, but I was fascinated by this 696 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 1: guy and I would just I would just sit there 697 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 1: and watch him and I would be okay with it 698 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: before the commercial came on, and I thought it was fun. 699 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: But the biggest thing he said, or at least I 700 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: gathered from him and then just reassured myself after looking 701 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: up now, is that all your money problems originate with 702 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: your sins, the things that you're doing. But if you 703 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: send donations to his ministry, you're going to get those 704 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: blessings back. I mean, he said it just right out there. 705 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: He wasn't, you know, playing around with the idea or anything. 706 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: He just said that. And at the time, his ministry 707 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,280 Speaker 1: had this direct mailing arm, you might say, the biggest 708 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 1: part of it that would send you items that you're 709 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 1: either supposed to touch your in you interact with them 710 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: in some way, and then you send it back to 711 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: the ministry. Yeah right, yes, you can you already see 712 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: like what's going on here. You send me a miracle 713 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,240 Speaker 1: prayer cloth, you pray with it, you know, you interact 714 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: with it, then you send it back, but you send 715 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: it back with your faith, your donation, right, and then 716 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: you keep that going with people who watch your show, 717 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: and uh, it's it's pretty crazy. They were prayer cloths, um, 718 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,359 Speaker 1: these little chords they would send you that you pray 719 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: with again and then it gets put on some wall 720 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: of deliverance. Um. There was a hand tracing where if 721 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: you put your hand on it, Uh, well yeah, you 722 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: can make it into a turkey. But then you send 723 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: it back with your donation. And then Robert Tilton's gonna 724 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: put his hand where you put your hand. And you 725 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: think he had like somebody to do it for him. Well, 726 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: let's let's let's get into that, because the interaction was 727 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: always on you. Right, Robert Tilton wasn't sending you a 728 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: thing that he put his hand on essentially or that way. 729 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 1: That's a bad example. But you had to send the 730 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: thing back to them for the interaction to occur, so 731 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: you never saw it. You both had faith that your 732 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: donation is going to do something for you and right, 733 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: I mean it was fascinating to me. And ABC News 734 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: did an investigation in well, uh specifically looking at the 735 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,760 Speaker 1: direct mailing service. Uh, and they found that that alone 736 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 1: brought in his ministry in nineteen nine one eighty million 737 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: dollars a year, and he wasn't doing what he said 738 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: he was doing. No, did they find like a giant 739 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: like pile of hand tracings. And they looked at the 740 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: dumpsters in the banks, because there were numerous banks that 741 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: were used. And this is all by the way, I 742 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: hope I can even talk about this. It's from there 743 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: were libel lawsuits that ended up getting thrown out, and 744 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of appeals and much of other stuff. But uh, 745 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: they found just tons and tons of fan not fan mail, gosh, 746 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry that's the wrong word. But these letters and 747 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: the donations and the little objects, the the special water 748 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,479 Speaker 1: that they would send you, it was just thrown away 749 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: with the donations were taken. The wires you had to 750 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,320 Speaker 1: buy them in the first place, probably right, No, no, no. 751 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,720 Speaker 1: They would send stuff to you as like a gift 752 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: in a way, uh, that you would interact with and 753 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: send back. But did it did it directly correlate with 754 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: your level of giving, Like back to the NPR model 755 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 1: where you get a coffee cup at one level and 756 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: then like a tote bag. Oh, I'm sure some of 757 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: that existed. I didn't. I didn't find much of that. 758 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: We'll we'll circle back. There's more to it, though we 759 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: don't have to go into If you're interested and this 760 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: whole thing, you can look up Robert Tilton and you 761 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,840 Speaker 1: may know who this person is. If you don't recognize 762 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: the name. If you were alive while the internet video 763 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: phenomenon was beginning, you may remember something called farting Preacher, 764 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: and this is the person who's featured in those videos. Uh. 765 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,840 Speaker 1: They are highly they can be highly offensive, depending on 766 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 1: what you believe. They are satirical and in my opinion, 767 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: at least as a kid watching them or a younger 768 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: person watching them, the funniest thing I've ever seen. I 769 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,160 Speaker 1: can attest personally as a thirty four year old man, 770 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: having never seen this before in my life. When you 771 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: showed it to me earlier, I was in stitches. It's amazing. 772 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: It's amazing, but um, you know, buy or beware. It 773 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: could potentially ruffle your vetage. Did you Uh? Did we 774 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: mention the scripts that the phone operators were using. Oh yeah, 775 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 1: that was also in the dumpsters, and in particular with 776 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: those scripts, it said you're not allowed to be on 777 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,239 Speaker 1: the phone Oh no. They even had a service that 778 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,800 Speaker 1: would cut the phone off if the person in the 779 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,800 Speaker 1: call center was talking for more than seven minutes, because 780 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: they volume was of such a level that you couldn't 781 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: stay on the line that longer. And they wouldn't accept 782 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: anything any donation below a hundred dollars. So if you 783 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,760 Speaker 1: are calling because you are lonely and you need someone 784 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: to talk to, they will hang up. Well, they give 785 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: you seven minutes, and if you've got a hundred dollars, 786 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: you know you might get on the good graces. So this, uh, 787 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: you can clearly see in this situation there was stuff 788 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: that Tilton didn't want you to know, which is that 789 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,760 Speaker 1: they were not reading it. They were not even according 790 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 1: to their own internal logic, providing the considerations that they 791 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: said they would. Yeah, dude, there's so much more to 792 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: money wasn't going to these uh what he said. He 793 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,840 Speaker 1: was supposed to have several orphanages in Haiti that apparently 794 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: didn't exist when ABC investigated, and a lot of the 795 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,239 Speaker 1: money that was being donated was supposed to go there, 796 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: but it didn't. And he had he had numerous mansions, guys, 797 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 1: this this guy had so many mansions in boats and 798 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:53,479 Speaker 1: cars and uh, it's just really disturbing him. It makes 799 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 1: me angry. So he's not the only one though, he's 800 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: not the only fish in the shoal here, No, you 801 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,399 Speaker 1: still got Here's just another one. I threw in here 802 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 1: because I think it's noteworthy. Maybe two younger people who 803 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,879 Speaker 1: might be listening. If you've ever heard of something called 804 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 1: super Deluxe, which is a thing. It's a video I 805 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,320 Speaker 1: don't know a network. I guess it's kind of a 806 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: video networking. They have a YouTube channel as well, and 807 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: there's a guy named Vic Burger who is a producer 808 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: and editor and he makes he makes these Jim Baker 809 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: videos specifically about Jim Baker's newest ministry. And he's been 810 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: around for a long time. Remember you might remember Tammy 811 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: Faye Baker and Jim Baker. They got into some legal issues. 812 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: He ended up having to go to jail for a while. Um, 813 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: well he's back and his most recent stuff is all 814 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,839 Speaker 1: based on preparing people for what's to come for civilization, 815 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 1: like the end timesation. Yeah, exactly exactly. Let's hear one 816 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: of those Vic Burger clips. Just to give you a sense, 817 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,240 Speaker 1: God gave us a new leader, gave us a new president, 818 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,440 Speaker 1: and he says, if we don't occupy it, the enemy 819 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,440 Speaker 1: will come back in. And that's what they're trying to do. 820 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: They're trying to kill. They're trying to get him out 821 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 1: of office. Kill kill. Okay, there we go. That's a 822 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good uh, that's a pretty good sample. 823 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: And people can find it on YouTube. It's a food though, right, yes, 824 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,719 Speaker 1: and and you if you go on the website, they 825 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,760 Speaker 1: will accept donations for the following. There's an expanded fuel 826 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: List Generator package that costs only three thousand, five hundred dollars. 827 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: There's also the like Noel said, the buckets of food. 828 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: It's called the Staying Alive Time of Trouble. You can 829 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: get thirty two buckets of food for dollars. But my 830 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 1: favorite and kind of to see how this whole thing functions, 831 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,720 Speaker 1: is the complete grocery Store Special for three thousand dollars. 832 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: But it has in the description of this item that 833 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 1: the value of the food you're getting is two thousand 834 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,719 Speaker 1: and nine dollars, but you're paying quite a bit more 835 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: for that. So essentially you're donating to the ministry and 836 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: getting something that you will probably use or at least 837 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 1: is that wrong then if they have the actual value 838 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,240 Speaker 1: of the stuff I was addressed exactly. I it actually 839 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: made me feel a little better about it. But still, 840 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,240 Speaker 1: you know, he's making money on scaring you into believing 841 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: the you know, the end of the world is on 842 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: its way and somehow you're gonna be able to be 843 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: a prepper for this and be okay, I don't know. 844 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: It still rubs me the wrong way. And Vic Burger 845 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: is hilarious in his videos, but it's maybe it's not 846 00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: quite as bad anymore. I totally agree. I think the 847 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,920 Speaker 1: transparency and the pricing is interesting and potentially makes it 848 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,160 Speaker 1: a little less egregious. But when you look at these 849 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:54,160 Speaker 1: they they look like a um, you know, Billy May's 850 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: infomercial where they're totally like selling you a product like 851 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,839 Speaker 1: it is very much not frame as tithing to the church. 852 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: It's very much like this is what you need by 853 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,000 Speaker 1: this to prepare for the end of the world, and 854 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: you only can get it here, folks. So there's that. 855 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: So again it's a matter of degree. You know, it 856 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: would be unfair to people of faith at large to 857 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 1: say that all of these practices or these practitioners are 858 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: inherently somehow wrong or morally bankrupt. Several of them, I 859 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 1: would argue, are and do have stuff they don't want 860 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 1: you to know, but not all of them. We have 861 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: more examples that will return to after a quick word 862 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:48,239 Speaker 1: from our sponsors. We have returned NOL. There was one 863 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: particular example that you were talking about off air before 864 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: we before stepped into the booth the room, so the 865 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,360 Speaker 1: compound and yes, this all originated after I showed no 866 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 1: all the farming preacher clip. He showed me a clip 867 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,800 Speaker 1: of Justin Bieber hanging out at hill Song. Is that 868 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,160 Speaker 1: what it was called? Hillsng in l a UM it 869 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: is a megachurch UM that was founded in uh Sydney, 870 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,440 Speaker 1: New South Wales, Australia, nineteen eight three by Brian and 871 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:23,000 Speaker 1: Bobby Houston UM and it has since expanded across five 872 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,359 Speaker 1: countries in Europe, Asia and the America's UM and then 873 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,400 Speaker 1: it broadcasts online two over a hundred and sixty nations, 874 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,359 Speaker 1: has more than a hundred thousand worldwide attendees and they're 875 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,880 Speaker 1: eighty affiliated churches UM and so it's it's you know, 876 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,839 Speaker 1: when you think of megachurches, you think about this UM 877 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,840 Speaker 1: like rock concert kind of atmosphere where rather than like 878 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 1: a traditional church, these things take place in like arena 879 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: type settings, thousands and thousands of people, high production value, 880 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: from the actual sermons to the music. It's these like 881 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:02,239 Speaker 1: cold Play style rock shows with like lights and you know, 882 00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,279 Speaker 1: l eds and even pyrotechnics and all kinds of bells 883 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,640 Speaker 1: and whistles. And this is one of the most successful 884 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,279 Speaker 1: kind of brands, this Hillsong thing, largely because of its 885 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:19,279 Speaker 1: association with many celebrities now, especially like the Biber thing um. 886 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,319 Speaker 1: And there's another super deluxe video with Biber hanging out 887 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,160 Speaker 1: with two of the pastors, and there's this part where 888 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,400 Speaker 1: he's like brushing his teeth while they're talking about stuff, 889 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,840 Speaker 1: and there's this whole like expand my borders, oh Lord section, 890 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,000 Speaker 1: which is great. I recommend just type in Biber bill song. 891 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: We're not gonna bust that one out here. But this 892 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 1: is what I was talking about earlier, where it's like, 893 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would necessarily peg these people 894 00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:47,840 Speaker 1: as specifically being prosperity theologians or a prosperity religion, but 895 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,080 Speaker 1: it's a huge part of it because it's got this 896 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,440 Speaker 1: inherent flash and you know, it's glossy, high production, value 897 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,560 Speaker 1: quality and this sense that you know of of success 898 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: that goes along with it with these celebrity of phillyations. 899 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,959 Speaker 1: And they push very hard for tithing. They are Pentecostal 900 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,000 Speaker 1: and they are again that very strict interpretation of the 901 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,640 Speaker 1: Bible which encourages tithing, and they equate that to give 902 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: ten percent of your income. Yes, of course, yes to 903 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: the church. And you know, you look at their sites, 904 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,560 Speaker 1: there is a very robust page for you know, contributing 905 00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: to this organization. They have a music group like you know, 906 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,360 Speaker 1: like the Universal Music Group, like a record label basically 907 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 1: where they put out and um make large sums of money. 908 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: I would imagine on these Christian rock type bands. I 909 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,600 Speaker 1: used to listen to this stuff. Yeah, well, and I 910 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:51,520 Speaker 1: lift your name on high seeing that I don't think, 911 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that's inherently wrong. I'm just 912 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: because I was exposed to that. We've I came from 913 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,200 Speaker 1: that youth group Culchure as well. In these songs are 914 00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,840 Speaker 1: forever embedded in my brain. And I resent that a 915 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,080 Speaker 1: little bit before we get into the bed whatever you're 916 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:07,440 Speaker 1: about to hit. And while I just want to bring 917 00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,919 Speaker 1: it up, but it is an interesting question of when 918 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:14,520 Speaker 1: an organization gets this large, at what point does it 919 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,480 Speaker 1: become just this money making machine when it's that huge. 920 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 1: And you could say the same thing about any large 921 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: church or the Vatican. Remember when we talk about the 922 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,480 Speaker 1: Vatican Bank and the just the money that gets poured 923 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,960 Speaker 1: into their Yeah, and the and the weird part comes 924 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: from the tax exempt and aspect of it, where you know, 925 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,640 Speaker 1: this is lining the pockets of the founders and the 926 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,479 Speaker 1: high level officials in these organizations, and they're not paying 927 00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 1: any tax on it, you know, and they own massive 928 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: amounts of real estate like in Australia alone, I mean, 929 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,280 Speaker 1: the value of the property that Hillsong owns is unprecedented 930 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: and they even I think we're we're trying to enter 931 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:59,480 Speaker 1: into an agreement with UM the Government of Sydney to 932 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,640 Speaker 1: dive develop a huge area of of the of the 933 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: city and it ultimately that didn't happen because like an 934 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:10,200 Speaker 1: independent council recommended against it. But we're talking big, big 935 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: spending power here, and the ability to really shape the 936 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,960 Speaker 1: politics of a particular area where the whole sway even 937 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,680 Speaker 1: beyond it. Absolutely, and I don't want to get to 938 00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,760 Speaker 1: to even this because I don't think it's entirely relevant 939 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,840 Speaker 1: what we're talking about, but I think it's interesting. Um, 940 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,080 Speaker 1: the father of the founder of Hillsong ran into some 941 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 1: legal trouble involving an accusation of a molestation of one 942 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,760 Speaker 1: of the child in his congregation when he was a 943 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,160 Speaker 1: Pentecostal pastor. And we won't get too a new here. 944 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: It's really not particularly relevant, except in the fact that 945 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,800 Speaker 1: there does seem to have been some influence perhaps if 946 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,040 Speaker 1: you look at the details of the case that could 947 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: have come from, you know, whether or not it was 948 00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: in choosing to level the accusations or not. The mother 949 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: of the child made some statements that indicated that she 950 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,960 Speaker 1: viewed these folks as royalty in this town, and there 951 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,160 Speaker 1: was a sense that we you know, they can do 952 00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,920 Speaker 1: no wrong. So there's that psychological aspect, maybe not necessarily 953 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,600 Speaker 1: manipulating the legal system, but you know, there's a lot 954 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,040 Speaker 1: of power that comes with being in these positions. In 955 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,000 Speaker 1: people's minds, you know, that are following you, they ascribe 956 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: certain almost superhuman notions, you know, traits to to the 957 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,760 Speaker 1: folks that are like in controlling these kinds of huge organizations. Absolutely, 958 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: and that's not just Native to prosperity theology. But to 959 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,240 Speaker 1: like bring it back there, I would argue that many 960 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:42,600 Speaker 1: times that problem is compounded in prosperity theology. Uh. One 961 00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,000 Speaker 1: thing we would be remiss about that we've talked about. 962 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 1: We've we've proved a tax exemption a little bit, right, 963 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: But there is a reason, and there's a good reason, 964 00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: that religious organizations in the US are exempt from paying taxes. 965 00:59:54,840 --> 01:00:00,480 Speaker 1: It's the least worst answer to a very big potential problem, 966 01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,760 Speaker 1: which is that taxing religions could lead to the loss 967 01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: of freedom of religion. So what happens if there's you know, 968 01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,360 Speaker 1: if there's a group of people who have their own 969 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,880 Speaker 1: private faith and don't have the money to pay for 970 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,000 Speaker 1: the right to have a church, money that would go 971 01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,640 Speaker 1: or the right to practice the religion exactly, and money 972 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,760 Speaker 1: that would go to the government, right, which you know, 973 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,440 Speaker 1: might make it seem as though there's some connection, and 974 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:33,560 Speaker 1: ideally having that separation would keep the It's like the 975 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,720 Speaker 1: old Arabic proverb of like if a camel has his 976 01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: nose in the tents, soon the camel will be in 977 01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: the tent. You know, a slippery slope argument all about 978 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 1: camel's today. Yeah, I didn't mean to bring it back, 979 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,960 Speaker 1: but it is a real proverb. And then obviously you 980 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,640 Speaker 1: have people that establish, you know, ministries with nothing but 981 01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: good intention, and there's a lot of charity that that 982 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,960 Speaker 1: that comes from ministries and you know, philanthropy and helping 983 01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,200 Speaker 1: people in need, giving to the poor. I mean, religion 984 01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,480 Speaker 1: is a force of good most of the time. I 985 01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,520 Speaker 1: would argue at the base level, at the base level, 986 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,880 Speaker 1: at its most pure core good, don't be a villain. 987 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,760 Speaker 1: But I think that there are examples of folks like 988 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about here, that maybe look at that tax 989 01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: exemption status as like a way to create an international 990 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:28,760 Speaker 1: money machines. Absolutely absolutely read about the rationalizations for buying 991 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,240 Speaker 1: a private jet in a world where one billion people 992 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:37,160 Speaker 1: die due to lack of toilets, you know what I mean, 993 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,240 Speaker 1: Like in terms of priorities not having been sent as 994 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,240 Speaker 1: some sort of divine messenger, It's pretty clear to me 995 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,520 Speaker 1: that there are other things to spend money on. And 996 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,120 Speaker 1: maybe true, maybe people get caught in a bubble with 997 01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,960 Speaker 1: the best of intentions, you know, and the priorities can 998 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 1: seem skewed. Uh. There is another double standard here, which 999 01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,280 Speaker 1: is that sure tax exempts and does exist for very 1000 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:06,520 Speaker 1: good reason. However, as Noll said earlier, it's completely clear 1001 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: that large groups of motivated people in in many religious 1002 01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,840 Speaker 1: organizations are being told how to vote yes, perhaps without 1003 01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,000 Speaker 1: knowing an issue, um, perhaps without even reaching their own 1004 01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:25,200 Speaker 1: conclusion through a spiritual, self guided journey. They're being told 1005 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:33,760 Speaker 1: that some greater reward, greater spiritual reward. And remember death 1006 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,640 Speaker 1: is can be really good forever, really bad forever, and 1007 01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,440 Speaker 1: a lot of these belief systems and that depends on 1008 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,040 Speaker 1: how you vote. That's a dangerous thing for your country. 1009 01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,000 Speaker 1: And that's a big voting block too. I mean, you know, 1010 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,880 Speaker 1: the evangelical vote was very successfully rallied in this most 1011 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:53,440 Speaker 1: recent presidential election, So there is great power there. And 1012 01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,640 Speaker 1: when you start to ask yourself, where are these choices 1013 01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,600 Speaker 1: coming from, Who is influencing these choices and to what end, 1014 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,000 Speaker 1: that's a whole another can of worms that we're not 1015 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 1: even gonna, you know, dive into this episode, but that 1016 01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,600 Speaker 1: could be one for the future. I think we should. 1017 01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:11,360 Speaker 1: I think we should look at that influence because we 1018 01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,640 Speaker 1: know that it is global. Right. Church and state interactions 1019 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:19,440 Speaker 1: occur in many many countries. The rules of churches when 1020 01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,640 Speaker 1: there's mass civil unrest. Sure. Yeah, that separation we're always 1021 01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,160 Speaker 1: talking about is a bit of window dressing, if you 1022 01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:30,120 Speaker 1: ask me. Often, yeah, often. And Uh. Here, however, we 1023 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:34,320 Speaker 1: draw to a close with our examination of the ins 1024 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,840 Speaker 1: and outs of prosperity theology despite their critics, and there 1025 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,560 Speaker 1: are many the proponents of prosperity theology, and there are 1026 01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,800 Speaker 1: many uh seems set to continue this work well into 1027 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,200 Speaker 1: the twenty first century. There's an interesting thing. There are 1028 01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:51,200 Speaker 1: booms and busts with this sort of movement. So it 1029 01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,480 Speaker 1: was very big in the fifties, right, and it was 1030 01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,720 Speaker 1: very big in the eighties. So it may seem to 1031 01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 1: decline or wax and wane or for the over the decade. 1032 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: I think somebody gets some figure gets a little too 1033 01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,040 Speaker 1: big in the but or too well known, then gets 1034 01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,840 Speaker 1: taken down, and then it kind of happens in that 1035 01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: way for a long time. It's not a big deal anymore, 1036 01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:15,600 Speaker 1: and then somebody else gets a little too big because 1037 01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 1: if nobody's been talking about it. I think that's exactly 1038 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,320 Speaker 1: what happens, man. Uh. And now what we're left with 1039 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,040 Speaker 1: is the question how much of the money sent to 1040 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,920 Speaker 1: these organizations does go to spread the good word to 1041 01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,400 Speaker 1: maintain and grow a church and religious organization to support 1042 01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:34,360 Speaker 1: those in need, and how much goes into hidden bank accounts, 1043 01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:39,520 Speaker 1: personal vehicles, clothing, trips, housing to cover up crimes. Right, 1044 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:46,960 Speaker 1: based on multiple interviews from multiple journalists over multiple decades, 1045 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,520 Speaker 1: that appears often to be the stuff they don't want 1046 01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,560 Speaker 1: you to know. Al right here where we've reached the 1047 01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:57,120 Speaker 1: time where we ask you, what do you think about 1048 01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,840 Speaker 1: all this stuff? You know, we spent some time researching it. 1049 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,720 Speaker 1: We we've you know, we've given you our thoughts. What 1050 01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:08,960 Speaker 1: do you think? Is this something that's positive in your 1051 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,760 Speaker 1: neck of the woods. Is it something you've been a 1052 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,880 Speaker 1: part of. Maybe you've got an anecdote of something that 1053 01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,360 Speaker 1: came out of working with maybe Joel Austin. Maybe you 1054 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,840 Speaker 1: work in the church. Maybe you know maybe there's something 1055 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,240 Speaker 1: we're missing. Here would be your Joel Austen's personal page. Oh, 1056 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,240 Speaker 1: write to us. We're on Twitter and we're on Facebook. 1057 01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,919 Speaker 1: You can find us. We're conspiracy stuff on both of those. 1058 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,280 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. Send us any 1059 01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,720 Speaker 1: of that stuff there, or if you don't like social media, 1060 01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,520 Speaker 1: you can find us through email. We get all of 1061 01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,600 Speaker 1: our best suggestions for episodes from you, and the feedback 1062 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,919 Speaker 1: you send us on these episodes is invaluable. It really 1063 01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,960 Speaker 1: helps us get a better understanding for you know, what 1064 01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,360 Speaker 1: we covered and what we got right, what we got wrong, 1065 01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,720 Speaker 1: all that good stuff. If you want to write to us, 1066 01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:01,200 Speaker 1: we are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com. I