Speaker 1: School of Humans.
Speaker 2: I'm Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep dark Woods. Today's
Speaker 2: story is Atu five hundred, the name of the Helper
Speaker 2: or Rumpelstiltskin.
Speaker 3: Once upon a time there was a miller who was poor,
Speaker 3: but who had a beautiful daughter. Now it happened that
Speaker 3: he got into a conversation with the king, and to
Speaker 3: make an impression on him, he said, I have a
Speaker 3: daughter who can spin straw into gold. The king said
Speaker 3: to the miller, that is an.
Speaker 4: Art I really like.
Speaker 3: If your daughter is as skillful as you say, then
Speaker 3: bring her to my castle tomorrow and I will put
Speaker 3: her to the test. When the girl was brought to him,
Speaker 3: he led her into a room that was entirely filled
Speaker 3: with straw, giving her a spinning wheel and reel, he said,
Speaker 3: get to work now, spin all night, and if by
Speaker 3: morning you have not spun this straw into gold, then
Speaker 3: you will have to die. Then he himself locked the room,
Speaker 3: and she was there all alone. The poor miller's daughter
Speaker 3: sat there and for her life she did not know
Speaker 3: what to do. She had no idea how to spin
Speaker 3: straw into gold. She became more and more afraid and
Speaker 3: finally began to cry. Then Suddenly the door opened, a
Speaker 3: little man stepped inside and said, good evening, mistress Miller.
Speaker 4: Why are you crying so oh? Answered the girl.
Speaker 3: I am supposed to spin straw into gold, and I
Speaker 3: don't know how to do it. The little man said,
Speaker 3: what will you give me if I spin it for you?
Speaker 3: My necklace, said the girl. The little man took the necklace,
Speaker 3: sat down before the spinning wheel, and whir whre whre
Speaker 3: three times pulled, and the spool was full. Then he
Speaker 3: put another one on and whre whre whre three times pulled,
Speaker 3: and the second one was full as well. So it
Speaker 3: went until morning, and then all the straw was spun,
Speaker 3: and all the spools were filled with gold. At sunrise,
Speaker 3: the king came and when he saw the gold, he
Speaker 3: was surprised and happy, but his heart became even more
Speaker 3: greedy for gold. He had the miller's daughter taken to
Speaker 3: another room filled with straw. It was even larger, and
Speaker 3: he ordered her to spin it in one night if
Speaker 3: she valued her life. The girl did not know what
Speaker 3: to do, and she cried once again. The door opened
Speaker 3: and the little man appeared. He said, what will you
Speaker 3: give me if I spin the straw into gold for
Speaker 3: you the ring from my finger, answered the girl. The
Speaker 3: little man took the ring and began once again to
Speaker 3: whir with the spinning wheel. By morning he had spun
Speaker 3: all the straw into glistening gold. The king was happy
Speaker 3: beyond measure when he saw it, but he still did
Speaker 3: not have his fill of gold. He had the miller's
Speaker 3: daughter taken to a still larger room filled with straw,
Speaker 3: and said to night you must spin this too. If
Speaker 3: you succeed, you shall become my wife. He thought, even
Speaker 3: if she is only a miller's daughter, I will not
Speaker 3: find a richer wife in all the world. When the
Speaker 3: girl was alone, the little man returned for a third time.
Speaker 3: He said, what will you give me if I spin
Speaker 3: the straw?
Speaker 4: This time? I have nothing more.
Speaker 3: That I could give you, answered the girl. Then promise
Speaker 3: me after you are a queen your first child. Who
Speaker 3: knows what will happen, thought the miller's daughter, and, not
Speaker 3: knowing what else to do, she promised the little man
Speaker 3: what he demanded. In return, the little man once again
Speaker 3: spun the straw into gold. When in the morning the
Speaker 3: king came and found everything just as he desired. He
Speaker 3: married her, and the beautiful Miller's daughter became queen. A
Speaker 3: year later, she brought a beautiful child into the world.
Speaker 3: She thought no more about the little Man, but suddenly
Speaker 3: he appeared in her room and said, now give me
Speaker 3: that which you have promised. The queen took fright and
Speaker 3: offered the little man all the wealth of the kingdom
Speaker 3: if he would let her keep the child. But the
Speaker 3: little man said no, something living is dearer to me
Speaker 3: than all the treasures of the world. Then the queen
Speaker 3: began lamenting and crying so much that the little man
Speaker 3: took pity on her and said.
Speaker 1: I will give you three days time. If by then
Speaker 1: you know my name, then you shall keep your child.
Speaker 1: The queen spent an entire night thinking of all the
Speaker 1: names she had ever heard. Then she sent a messenger
Speaker 1: into the country to inquire far and wide what other
Speaker 1: names there were.
Speaker 4: When the little man.
Speaker 3: Returned the next day, she began with Casper Melcher Bowser
Speaker 3: and said, in order all the names she knew. After
Speaker 3: each one, the little man said, that's not my name.
Speaker 3: The second day she sent inquiries into the neighborhood as
Speaker 3: to what names people had. She recited the most unusual
Speaker 3: and most curious names to the little man, is your
Speaker 3: name perhaps beast rib or mutton, calf or leg string,
Speaker 3: But he always answered, that's not my name. On the
Speaker 3: third day, the messenger returned and said, I have not
Speaker 3: been able to find a single new name. But when
Speaker 3: I was approaching a high mountain in the corner of
Speaker 3: the woods there where the fox and the hare sa
Speaker 3: good night, I saw a little house. A fire was
Speaker 3: burning in front of the house, and an altogether comical
Speaker 3: little man was jumping around the fire, hopping on one
Speaker 3: leg and calling out, Today, I'll bake, Tomorrow, I'll brew,
Speaker 3: then I'll fetch the queen's newte child. It's good that
Speaker 3: no one knows rumpel Stiltskin is my name. You can
Speaker 3: imagine how happy the queen was when she heard that name.
Speaker 3: Soon afterwards, the little man came in and asked, now,
Speaker 3: Madam Queen, what is my name? She first asked, is
Speaker 3: your name kunts No?
Speaker 4: Is your name?
Speaker 3: Heinz no?
Speaker 4: Is your name?
Speaker 3: Perhaps rumpel Stiltskin. The devil told you that.
Speaker 2: The devil told you that, shouted the little.
Speaker 3: Man, and with anger he stomped his right foot so
Speaker 3: hard into the ground that he fell in up to
Speaker 3: his waist. Then with both hands he took hold of
Speaker 3: his left foot and ripped himself up the middle.
Speaker 2: Into rumpel Stiltskin was never one of my favorite stories.
Speaker 2: It never stood out to me in the way other
Speaker 2: tales did. But although it is popular, and the brother's
Speaker 2: grim version perhaps the most popular, it's a tale that
Speaker 2: has far reaching roots. Similar to Cinderella, the origins of
Speaker 2: Rumpelstiltskin dates back thousands of years. The tale we know
Speaker 2: itself doesn't, but making a deal with a supernatural creature
Speaker 2: for a return does. This pattern for a story has
Speaker 2: been dated back between twenty five hundred to six thousand years.
Speaker 2: It wasn't until later that the Rumpelstiltskin We're familiar with
Speaker 2: was written. Joann Fischhart was a German satirist and publicist
Speaker 2: whose book Gargantua was published sometime in the fifteen seventies.
Speaker 2: The book is an adaptation of frenchmen Francois Rabelais The
Speaker 2: Life of Gargantua and of pantic Roll. This was a
Speaker 2: series of five books published between fifteen thirty two and
Speaker 2: fifteen sixty four.
Speaker 4: The book is a satirical and.
Speaker 2: Humorous take on religion through the Adventures of two Giants,
Speaker 2: a father and a son.
Speaker 4: Although the books were banned.
Speaker 2: During Rabelais's time, they were still read all across Europe.
Speaker 2: In fact, these two giants are some of the most
Speaker 2: famous giants in European literature. But that crudeness and violence
Speaker 2: found in the original tales were in a way the
Speaker 2: foundation for rumpel Stilskin, because they were the elements that fish.
Speaker 4: Art really liked.
Speaker 2: In Fishart's adaptation, rumpel Stilskin shows up as a three
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty third amusement. Basically that means he had
Speaker 2: a list of games in his book, and this was
Speaker 2: a three hundred and sixty third one listed. There's this
Speaker 2: old children's game rempel Stilt oder dare Popart, which Fischhart
Speaker 2: Rumpelstilskin is thought to be derived from. In German, rumpel
Speaker 2: Stiltskin is translated as little rattle stilt. The stilt refers
Speaker 2: to a pole or post which is used for support,
Speaker 2: like the support to use for building a fence, stilt
Speaker 2: or stults, if you're taking their archaic German word also
Speaker 2: means lame or with a limp, and the first half
Speaker 2: rumpel stilt refers to a type of goblin. That goblin
Speaker 2: was also called Poupard or pope art, hint the origins
Speaker 2: of Rumpel's name. The game was played with one child
Speaker 2: being the goblin and banging on pots or pans or
Speaker 2: planks to make noise and chase the other children. Think
Speaker 2: of it like a game of tag, just a lot
Speaker 2: louder in with no tagging, and to this day the
Speaker 2: game is still played in some parts of Germany. By
Speaker 2: the time the Grams got around to Rumpelstiltskin, it was
Speaker 2: a well known story throughout Europe. Although the brother are
Speaker 2: said to have collected stories from the everyday folk, we
Speaker 2: know that most of the stories they collected were from
Speaker 2: other scholars and people from upper classes.
Speaker 4: We also know that.
Speaker 2: The brothers did a lot of editing the tales published,
Speaker 2: and their collections were not the original stories that were
Speaker 2: told on the street or had been passed down with Rumpell.
Speaker 2: The brothers actually took four different versions of the story
Speaker 2: and stitched them into the well known tale we now know. However,
Speaker 2: the first version they published was more tame than the
Speaker 2: final version. The eighteen twelve version ends with Rumpel running
Speaker 2: away angrily and never coming back, but this tale actually
Speaker 2: became more dark and evolved into the ending you just heard,
Speaker 2: which is where he tears himself into Although Rumpel dies
Speaker 2: gruesomely in the Grim's final telling, that's not always how
Speaker 2: the story ends. When I first set out on digging
Speaker 2: into Rumple, I felt like this was one of those
Speaker 2: tales that was falling by the wayside. I didn't feel
Speaker 2: like it held as much importance or wasn't as relevant
Speaker 2: as stories like Cinderella and The Frog Prince. To my knowledge,
Speaker 2: Disney hasn't done its own spin on the fairy tale.
Speaker 2: But as with almost everything, the more I researched, the
Speaker 2: more I proved myself wrong. I also realized I was
Speaker 2: surrounded with adaptations of Rumpel, but they weren't necessarily as obvious.
Speaker 2: First off, so many countries have a Rumpel tail. While
Speaker 2: stories like Cinderella have what I call the main three,
Speaker 2: the Zilee, Pirot, and the brothers Grim, Rumpel has roots
Speaker 2: all over the world, Arabic, Russian, and even South American
Speaker 2: that falls under the tail Type five hundred A mischievous
Speaker 2: or evil helper that is defeated by a hero or
Speaker 2: heroine in the end. There's a Scottish version that was
Speaker 2: collected by Robert Chambers and published in eighteen fifty eight.
Speaker 2: In this story, a woman's husband heads to the market
Speaker 2: with all their money and never comes back. She's left
Speaker 2: with their baby and prize pig. The pig was pregnant,
Speaker 2: so the woman felt that everything would be okay because
Speaker 2: she believed a strong litter of piglets would see her
Speaker 2: and her son throw. But soon after she realized the
Speaker 2: mother pig wasn't doing so hot. The pig laid on
Speaker 2: her side in the pig pen, wheezing, and it seemed
Speaker 2: she would die soon. At that point, the woman lost
Speaker 2: all hope and sat down crying. All of a sudden,
Speaker 2: a small woman came down the road and told the
Speaker 2: mother she knew all about our troubles and could save
Speaker 2: the pig. But the small woman asked what would be
Speaker 2: given in payment. The mother did not have time to
Speaker 2: respond before the small woman pulled out a small vial
Speaker 2: of liquid, rubbed some on the pig, who was then
Speaker 2: immediately healed. The woman then said she wanted the mother's
Speaker 2: child as payment. The mother cried out in despair. The
Speaker 2: small woman revealed she was a fairy and said she'd
Speaker 2: be back in three days to take the child.
Speaker 4: Having to wait due to fairy.
Speaker 2: Law, she told the mother the only way she could
Speaker 2: save her son was if she could guess the fairy's name,
Speaker 2: and three tries, the fairy then left. The woman wandered
Speaker 2: the woods to help herself think. On the second day,
Speaker 2: she heard a song and followed it and found the
Speaker 2: fairy spinning and singing to herself, And in that song,
Speaker 2: the fay said her name. The next day, when the
Speaker 2: fairy showed up to take the baby, the mother guessed
Speaker 2: her name was Whoopedie's story. The fairy was so mad
Speaker 2: she turned red and stumped off, never to be seen again.
Speaker 2: Then there's an Icelandic tail about a farmer who married
Speaker 2: a young and beautiful woman, but his new wife was
Speaker 2: lazy and never wanted to work for the winter. He
Speaker 2: gave her wool and asked her to spin it so
Speaker 2: they could make cloth, but she did not, no matter
Speaker 2: how much she complained at her. One day, a large
Speaker 2: woman came by asking for a favor. The farmer's wife
Speaker 2: asked if the woman could do some work in return.
Speaker 2: She asked the large woman to spin the wool to
Speaker 2: be used to make cloth. The large woman agreed and
Speaker 2: spun all of the wool and payment. She told the
Speaker 2: farmer's bride that she would have to guess her name.
Speaker 2: A deal was made, and the large woman said she'd
Speaker 2: return the first day of summer. The farmer's wife became
Speaker 2: more irate during the winter and spring months as she
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out the large woman's name. When she told
Speaker 2: her husband, he responded she had done a bad thing
Speaker 2: because that woman was a troll and was going to
Speaker 2: take her away. A while later, the farmer was taking
Speaker 2: a walk and came upon a large mound of rock.
Speaker 2: He heard a sound and followed it to a hole
Speaker 2: in the rock, where he saw the troll spinning and singing,
Speaker 2: and in that song she said her name. The man
Speaker 2: went back home, wrote the name down and gave.
Speaker 4: It to his wife, telling her this was the troll's name.
Speaker 2: When the troll came the first day of summer, the
Speaker 2: farmer's wife said the name on the third try, and
Speaker 2: the troll was so angry she ran off, never to
Speaker 2: be seen again. The farmer's wife was so relieved she
Speaker 2: became an industrious person that happily spun wool if you
Speaker 2: Notice and Rumbel Stilskin and these other Helper stories, the
Speaker 2: helper is portrayed as the villain. The character is used
Speaker 2: as a device to show the shortcomings of those around them.
Speaker 4: But let's fast.
Speaker 2: Forward to newer takes on the old Helper story. Rumbel
Speaker 2: has been tucked into some of my favorite childhood cartoons
Speaker 2: without me realizing it. I was rewatching Courage the Cowardly
Speaker 2: Dog the other day because I still do watch cartoons.
Speaker 2: One episode is a new creepy take on the story.
Speaker 2: Courage of the Cowardly Dog is a Cartoon Network show,
Speaker 2: so while it's four kids, it's for adults as well,
Speaker 2: And the whole show is about a dog who's terrified
Speaker 2: of everything but protects his owners, Muriel and Eustas against
Speaker 2: creepy events that happen in the middle of nowhere. That's
Speaker 2: the town they live in, and sure enough, the title
Speaker 2: of the episode is called Rumpled Stiltskin. Notice they add
Speaker 2: the ed in there, so it's rump Bold instead of
Speaker 2: rump bull in it, the bad tempered Scottish Storf tricks
Speaker 2: Muriel in Courage to make five thousand tartan kilts for
Speaker 2: his outlet stores. If they don't complete the task, he'll
Speaker 2: make them into shepherd's pie unless they discover his name.
Speaker 2: Courage escapes goes through a series of tasks to learn
Speaker 2: Rumpold's name before passing the knowledge to Muriel.
Speaker 4: When Muriel reveals to.
Speaker 2: Rumpold she knows his name, the Scottish dwarf bursts into tears.
Speaker 2: Turns out he hates his name. Muriel says he should
Speaker 2: change it to Rumpelstilskin without the ed, and he likes
Speaker 2: it so much that he changes it and the two
Speaker 2: become business partners. It's a happy ending for all. Rumpel
Speaker 2: or Rumpled isn't a bad guy in this story. It's
Speaker 2: that he's unhappy, and the episode teaches that a little
Speaker 2: kindness can lead to a quote happy ending. Also, there's
Speaker 2: a change in the dynamic of power. It's not Rumpel
Speaker 2: helping someone, but he's his own master. If this was
Speaker 2: an older tale, it could be argued he portrays the
Speaker 2: devil himself, who in the end is really not so bad.
Speaker 2: The idea of looking at Rumpel as more than an
Speaker 2: m or a creature or a person to make a
Speaker 2: deal with continues in modern character arcs. In my opinion.
Speaker 2: One of these strongest examples of this is in the
Speaker 2: show Once Upon a Time. It was a fantasy drama
Speaker 2: adventure that spanned seven seasons from twenty eleven to twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: In order to save a child from a curse, fair
Speaker 2: tale characters are sent to modern day Storybrooke, Maine. The
Speaker 2: show starts with a young boy showing up at bail
Speaker 2: bondsman Emma Swan's place, claiming he's her son and she's
Speaker 2: the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming. After dropping
Speaker 2: the boy off in the town, Emma Swan starts to
Speaker 2: think there might be something to the boy's story. As
Speaker 2: the show progresses, more fairy tale characters enter and we
Speaker 2: learn about them as well. Rumpelstilskin is shown as a
Speaker 2: human covered in scales. He's portrayed as the most villainous
Speaker 2: of all the bad guys, but also one of the
Speaker 2: characters you'll feel the worse for. His story is complicated.
Speaker 2: He's evil.
Speaker 4: Yes, he makes deals.
Speaker 2: For firstborns and in exchange the person gets what they want,
Speaker 2: But then you learn it's because he lost his son,
Speaker 2: Bill Fire, and his evil stems from a dagger with
Speaker 2: dark magic that he began using to.
Speaker 4: Try and find his son.
Speaker 2: All he truly wants is the love of a family
Speaker 2: of his son, but because of the dagger, he can't stop.
Speaker 2: It's a tale of greed and cowardice and bravery and
Speaker 2: change all rolled into one. It's seven seasons, so there's
Speaker 2: not time to break down every moral and meaning a
Speaker 2: hein Rumpled's character in Once but overall it shows that
Speaker 2: there's more complexities than someone just being a bad guy.
Speaker 2: It's us wanting to know why, taking the time to understand,
Speaker 2: and it could even be argued what it means to
Speaker 2: be human. The different aspects were presented and wrestle with
Speaker 2: every day. The idea of exploring Rumpelstiltskin as a more
Speaker 2: human character is also portrayed in the Gilded duology, published
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. Gilded follows the story of Cirillda.
Speaker 2: She's a poor miller's daughter who spends wild tales that
Speaker 2: get her into trouble since everyone believes they are lies.
Speaker 2: She ends up being swept away to this cursed castle
Speaker 2: that is basically held under siege by the demon King.
Speaker 2: It follows the original tale of she must spin straw
Speaker 2: into gold or be killed, but instead of help coming
Speaker 2: from a goblin or imp, it comes from a young
Speaker 2: man who is part of the curse. As a story unfolds,
Speaker 2: you learn that he is actually a cursed prince named
Speaker 2: Guild who can't be released until he remembers his true name,
Speaker 2: which is of course Rumpelstiltskin, and at the end, he
Speaker 2: and Serrilda are married and.
Speaker 4: Have a kid.
Speaker 2: This child is a child that she promised for his
Speaker 2: third night of help, but since it is their kid,
Speaker 2: she gave him her firstborn by birthing the child. While
Speaker 2: Srilda is the main hero here, Guild is also a hero.
Speaker 2: Although he is under duress. He helps Srilda fight demons
Speaker 2: and uncover the mystery to who he is and to
Speaker 2: break the curse on him and the subjects in his castle.
Speaker 2: These newer adaptations tend to explore more of who Rumpelstiltskin
Speaker 2: is and what he is searching for. They humanize a
Speaker 2: character that was originally a fairy creature bent on causing
Speaker 2: mischief at the expense of another. As we know from
Speaker 2: this series, fairy tales come with lessons and morals, So
Speaker 2: what is rumpel Stiltskin trying to teach us. Some people
Speaker 2: think that Stillskin could have been about teaching women how
Speaker 2: they should be supportive in their marriages. At first, this
Speaker 2: idea seems more aligned to the Icelandic tale we heard earlier,
Speaker 2: but spinning can be interpreted as a metaphor for all
Speaker 2: household skills, and at the time, society's expectations of women
Speaker 2: revolved around household skills and having kids. And then others
Speaker 2: think it's a cautionary tale for children to behave or
Speaker 2: for mothers to keep an eye on their kids. Although
Speaker 2: I feel like this one lends itself to other helper
Speaker 2: stories more so than the Grimm's version. One moral in
Speaker 2: the Grimm's tale is greed and also a warning.
Speaker 4: To be honest.
Speaker 2: There's this idea that if the miller had been honest
Speaker 2: with the king from the beginning, then the miller's daughter
Speaker 2: would never have found herself in the position she was.
Speaker 2: Notice the patriarchal view of putting the onus on the woman,
Speaker 2: even though it's the miller who offered her up. I
Speaker 2: talked to cultural studies professor Meredith jack Sipes about grims
Speaker 2: Rumplestol Skin, and he brought the moral of the story
Speaker 2: back to spinning, specifically, what spinning represented in the lives
Speaker 2: of women and the Grimm's time.
Speaker 4: Women, specifically in the lower.
Speaker 2: Class, spent a lot of time and effort making clothes
Speaker 2: for their families.
Speaker 5: There were no great, huge machines in manufacturing companies that
Speaker 5: made clothes. The closes people wore were made at home
Speaker 5: by spinning, and so spinning was extremely important. But it
Speaker 5: was also hard labor for young women. It's well known
Speaker 5: that there were a lot of accidents with regard to spinning,
Speaker 5: and it was hard work on their fingers, and so
Speaker 5: this is a tale about the way women were forced
Speaker 5: to make their own clothes or clothes for the family.
Speaker 2: Spinning was arduous, back breaking labor. It could be painful,
Speaker 2: and Zeips suggests that rumpel Stilskin could be a tale
Speaker 2: about how women dreamed of a better life for themselves,
Speaker 2: a life without this intense labor. After all, even though
Speaker 2: it comes with the price and the story, it's rumpel
Speaker 2: Stilskin who takes over the task of spinning.
Speaker 6: In the old days, in the sixteen, seventeenth, eighteenth centuries,
Speaker 6: there used to be aughts where women would gather in
Speaker 6: a community and jabber away and tell stories about how
Speaker 6: women would like to free themselves of the treatment. So
Speaker 6: it's all about the rise of a young woman, fortunately
Speaker 6: through the service of this little man, and she succeeds
Speaker 6: in saving herself.
Speaker 2: Rumpel Stilskin is a story of triumph for a young woman.
Speaker 2: She overcomes an impossible task set before her by people
Speaker 2: with unreasonable expectations. She lifts herself up from poverty and
Speaker 2: becomes the queen, and then she even overcomes Rumpel. But
Speaker 2: that's just one take. Rumpelstilskin isn't being left behind. As
Speaker 2: with all things, it's adapting. The new retellings are filling
Speaker 2: in blanks, digging into the whys, and really questioning not
Speaker 2: just who the real bad guy was, but how they
Speaker 2: became that way. And they're also holding true to the
Speaker 2: trope of rags to riches, of someone wanting a better life.
Speaker 2: And hopefully when help is offered to turn those dreams
Speaker 2: into a reality, it won't be by a mischievous helper.
Speaker 2: Next time we'll hear from an author who turned Cinderella
Speaker 2: into a cyborg.
Speaker 4: The Deep Dark.
Speaker 2: Woods is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2: It was created, written and hosted by me Miranda Hawkins.
Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Mike hal June was senior producer.
Speaker 4: Gabby Watts.
Speaker 2: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and
Speaker 2: Maya Howard. Stories were voiced by Julia christ Gau. Theme
Speaker 2: song was composed by Jesse Niswanger. This episode was sound
Speaker 2: designed and mixed by Chris Childs. If you enjoyed the show,
Speaker 2: please leave a review and you can follow along with
Speaker 2: the show on Instagram at School of Humans.