WEBVTT - From the Vault: Jump Into The Void 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.760 Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.959 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And as always 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.760 on Saturdays, the vault opens up, the door swings wide, 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.880 and the darkness beckons. But today there's a special kind 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.919 of beckoning of the darkness. Right, that's right, We're gonna 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.360 be talking about the call of the void, jumping into 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:26.759 the void. This is an episode today with Christian back 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.400 at the Dawn of and this one deals with like 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.199 the the curious situation we often experience if we stay 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.839 at the top of a tall building. Now so might experience. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.520 This is the the the the sort of fear. It's 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.240 not quite a it's like a mix between a fear 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.959 and a temptation to jump or or the way I've 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.519 I've experienced it before. And as in an example I 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:50.640 explained in this episode is that I'll be are to 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:52.560 be stay on the top of the Empire State Building 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:54.600 and there's no way I could actually jump off. I 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:56.720 couldn't you know, I wouldn't be able to scale the 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.720 barrier and then jump. But I I'll find myself thinking 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.800 about what would happen if I threw my wallet over 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:04.800 the side, you know, what if I what have I 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.880 got my my phone out and somehow managed to fling 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.640 that over the side as well. What is this peculiar 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.160 call of the void we experience? I think what would 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.440 happen is you would suddenly have a lot more free time, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.000 probably probably, But then I'd be freaking about out about 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.880 who's trying to call me and email me? It would, yeah, 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.319 it would. It would be bad either way, the call 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.280 of the void or the call of the phone. I 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:29.880 don't know which is worse. Uh well, either way, this 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.400 is a really interesting topic. I'm glad you and Christian 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.720 explored it, and I'm glad we get to share it 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:41.120 with you out there in the audience. Yet again. Welcome 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.160 to stuff to blow your mind from how stuff works, Carl. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.160 One day, the men and dogs were sitting on the 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.120 crest of a cliff which fell away straight down to 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.960 naked bedrock three ft below. John Thornton was sitting near 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.560 the edge, bucket his shoulder. A thoughtless whim sees Thornton, 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:06.720 and he drew the attention of hands and pete to 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.880 the experiment he had in mind. Jump buck He commanded, 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.920 sweeping his arm out over the chasm. The next instant. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.440 He was grappling with Buck on the extreme edge while 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.880 Hands and Pete were dragging them back into safety. It's uncanny, 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.440 Pete said, after it was over and they had caught 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.600 their speech. Thornton shook his head. No, it is splendid 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.560 and it is terrible too, do you know it sometimes 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:33.720 makes me afraid. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.800 My name is Robert lamp and my name is Christian Sager. Hey, Robert, 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.760 have you ever been standing at the edge of like 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.120 a cliff or a building, or maybe you're waiting for 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.200 a train, like a subway train. You just think I 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:54.160 should jump? Well, it never quite manifests itself as I 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.920 should jump. I find that for me, it manifests itself 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.040 as what if I did jump? Like you know, it's 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.960 this intense contemplation of the choice I have in the matter, 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.040 and the fact that I could if I wanted to 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.480 fling myself off of this cliff, you know, fall into 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.600 the Grand Canyon, go in front of a train, or 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.000 a variant of this thing I that I encountered a 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:19.920 top of the Empire State Building. Have you ever been 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:21.760 up to the top of the Empire State Building? You know, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.239 that they have these, it's basically being in a cage match. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.040 There's no you would have There's basically no way you 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.440 could throw yourself off the Empire State Building, at least 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:31.680 not on a whim. It would take, it would take 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.360 some some some planning and some effort. But what I 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.040 did find myself struggling with was what if I threw 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.920 my wallet over the side down into the street below. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.240 That would be horrible, And so I ended ended up 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.960 wrestling with that possibility, which is kind of like throwing 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.920 a piece of your life over the side. Isn't there 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.960 that adage? And I think how stuff works is even 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.480 done an article on this about like what happens when 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.280 you throw a penny over the side of the Empire 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:02.000 State Building? And I think there's the urban legend is 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.400 that it can kill a person. Yeah, I don't know 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.160 what the science is bey and that I seem to 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.760 recall it doesn't quite pan out. It's it's been a 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.280 while since I've looked at that one, but I still 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.360 I'm not gonna go throwing pennies over I feel like 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.520 my wallet would maybe just balks somebody in't have probably 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.160 with my wallet would probably not go through somebody. Yeah. Well. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.839 The other one of these is uh captured in Woody 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:28.360 Ellen's Annie Hall movie when Christopher Walkin is talking about 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.360 how he wants to swerve into traffic and at night 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.240 and he's looking at the other headlights coming the other way. 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.680 They're all related. Uh, and this is you. You out 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.320 there are probably going like, this is real morbid guys, 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.000 where are you going with this? Uh? This is an 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:49.520 actual phenomenon, so so common that it has multiple names, 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.440 and there has been a major study done on it. Um, 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.000 so we're gonna cover that today. It is the sudden 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.640 feeling that we want to put ourselves in harms way. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.640 Examples of this often include the urge to jump off 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.000 a tap building or to veer into oncoming traffic. The 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.320 French term for it is a pel dou vede, which 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.040 means call of the Void, which I really like. And 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.719 that's how I how I came to this was there's 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:21.080 this pretty brutal hardcore band that I like called Call 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.000 of the Void, and I was typing it into Google 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.520 the other day in an article on this phenomenon popped 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.159 up and I was like, I've never heard of this before, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.920 and then I said to you let's let's talk about this. Yeah, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.320 I mean I knew about it, I've had the experience, 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.440 but I feel like most people have had the experience. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.320 I would I would definitely like to hear from anyone 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.440 who has not had some variant of this. Now you 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.640 mentioned it. It's called often referred to as Call of 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.480 the Void, and some of our listeners might have recommended 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.720 the reading at the top of the episode as being 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.280 from Jack London's nineteen o three novel The Call of 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:57.560 the Wild. I like how this particular bit from that novel. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.359 Certainly that this is the main part of the novel 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.320 that always sticks out in my mind because it gets 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.960 into similar territory as the Call of the Void, the 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:10.640 idea that with a split decision you could bring being 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.200 into un being. In this case it's the dog and 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.160 really the but the dog also um represents much about 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.360 the central character in The Call in the Wild as well. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.279 What's strange about it is it's like the ultimate form 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.160 of control when you feel like you don't have control, right, 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.240 It's like this ultimate expression where you're like, oh, like 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.760 you think I don't have control over anything. The one 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.080 thing I can totally control is I could just kill 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.600 myself right now if I wanted to, which is horrible 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.640 to think about, but we're gonna get into it. There's 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.440 like a lot of theories as to where this thing 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.160 comes from. I don't know about you, but like when 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.880 I've experienced it, I feel it in the pit of 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:52.440 my stomach, like it's like a full body sensation. It's 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.159 not just like a little like thought like I wonder 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.200 if I if I jumped, you know, there's this weird Yeah, 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.479 it's gravity, visceral kind of vibe from it. It's it's 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:04.799 not so much like you're having to hold yourself down, 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.599 but sometimes you do kind of. I have been in 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.320 places where I feel like I kind of want to 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.840 squat down and maybe touch the ground a little bit, 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.720 even though I'm not near the edge now. One thing 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.400 I will say is that I have not felt this 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.160 recently because I find that when I am in places 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.400 with ledges or anything of that nature, I tend to 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.240 be there with my wife and son, and so I'm 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.240 more concerned about them falling out off, especially my son 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.800 being like just four going on five, He falls off 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.240 the stuff all the time, so like he and he 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.960 ends up generating all of my anxiety about people falling 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.320 or jumping, and then I don't I guess I have 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.040 less room for myself. Sure, well that makes sense based 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:50.480 on the cognitive dissonance theory that we're going to talk 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:58.320 about today, that that your parental authority would like override, 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.480 override the biologue goal like brain stuff that's going on 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.040 theoretically here that causes it. There's a whole theory as 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.480 to what causes this seems close, But let's go through 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.760 all this stuff and kind of figure it out. Before 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.760 we do that. I wanted to add a John paulse 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.960 Sartra observed this decades ago, and he said that this 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:23.880 emotion is unsettling because it creates an unnerving, shaky sensation 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.360 of not being able to trust one's own instincts, which 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.640 is which is really interesting. Like I hadn't even thought 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.200 about it as that that like you feel like, so 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:34.920 I just expressed it as a thing where it's like 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.040 you feel like you're in total control. But then his 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.079 version of it is you're totally out of control. Well, 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.120 it's kind of the you know, it's It's another reason 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.480 I like the Call of the Wild quote here, because 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.120 he talks about this thing being splendid and terrible at 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.120 the same time. And to to stand it's it's like 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:51.920 standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon, Like the 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.640 Grand Canyon is an awesome experience to see that much emptiness, 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.800 but it's also you feel vulnerable. If you're gonna go 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.559 and you want to go in style, that seems like 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.160 that would be kind of like a beautiful way to 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.680 do it. Well, a lot of people have Yeah, I mean, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.160 I'm not suicidal. Don't think that, audience, And we're gonna 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.439 talk about suicidal thoughts and relation to this as well, 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.679 because it's a pretty serious topic. But I could there 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.920 there's something, there is a beauty to it, and um, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.600 this is where Mr Sigmund Freud comes in and we'll 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.320 we'll we'll talk about that as well. But first let's 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.559 look at the more recent study. This is really the 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.080 hinge of this episode. So in twleven, a team of 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:38.200 scientists from Florida State University decided to investigate it, and 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.960 this was in the Journal of Effective Disorders and the 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.000 authors of the paper were led by a woman named 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.960 Jennifer Haymes. She's was a graduate student and she's currently 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.880 faculty at Notre Dame UH and this was at F 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.640 s us Joiner Lab. And you might be going, why 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.240 would anybody want to study this? Like, where would this 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.640 come from? Well, the idea here is that could shine 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.440 light on the whole idea of a death drive, that 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:09.760 some suicides are impulsive and have nothing to do with depression. Uh. 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.960 And that was interesting. I hadn't really thought of that 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:17.760 before myself, but I could reading up more on Freud's 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.360 death drive theory, I guess I could see where that 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.000 came from. Yeah, I do have to say for my 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.960 own part, I'm I'm I'll entertain the possibility that that exists, 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:32.080 but I'm rather I'm rather doubtful that suicide is can 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.480 occur or or does occur in any significant to any 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:41.840 significant degree, completely isolated from depression or willful intent, Like 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.040 the idea that someone's just like, oh I could jump 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.360 off the into the canyon and die. Let's do it, bam, done, 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.400 the end of deal. Like, I can see the impulse 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:55.280 being a factor if there is already some underlying depression, 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.679 or if one already had some sort of a plan 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.240 in mind, and this is just like this is the 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.720 day that I act on it. Yeah, So you know, 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.160 I think that it's worth saying. Like, uh, from my 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.160 subjective experience, like I said, I myself am not suicidal, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.680 and I haven't. I've had what we will refer to 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.360 later as suicidal thinking, but I've never had suicidal planning. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.959 And there's a major difference, right and and and this 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.240 is sort of the call of the void, the high 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.520 the high place phenomenon. Those are those are versions of 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.800 suicidal thinking. That's about as far as it's gone for me, right, yeah, well, 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.719 suicidal thinking. I feel like it's often tied into with 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.840 the romance of suicide because we have so many stories 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.559 and you know, these generally are very lopsided in their 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:47.120 presentation of suicide. Uh, the display it is this this noble, 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:53.040 poetic thing that doomed dreamers and doomed lovers Romeo and Julia, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.360 but we've all been teenagers, so we've all had moments 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.640 where we're like, oh, my life is so tragic, and 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.600 you might envision the scenario, but there's to your point, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.599 there's a difference between envisioning it, daydreaming about it, and 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.000 uh and thinking about when everyone will say when you're gone, 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.440 versus actually putting some sort of plan in place. But 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.400 for our listeners, I do want to establish upfront, you know, 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:20.520 I have experience with people who were suicidal or have 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.600 committed suicide, so I am sympathetic to that, and I 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.040 don't want this episode to feel like it's callous. This 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.079 is connected to that, but it's a The suicidal thinking 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.679 that goes along with the call of the void syndrome 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.839 seems to be a far cry from the actual act 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.199 of it um and but we're gonna get into that 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.040 at the end of the episode. So back to this research. 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.839 They found that more than thirty percent of the people 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:54.000 they talked to said they had experienced this phenomenon at 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.520 least once, and the researchers refer to it in their 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.280 study as high place phenomenon. They weren't take king into 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.280 account like throwing yourself in front of a train or 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.360 driving an oncoming traffic uh. They were also curious whether 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.920 it was related to a person's history of suicidal thinking, 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.840 and from their findings they found that it is common 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:19.600 even among people who have no depression or suicidal thinking history. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.280 So this was their methodology. They asked four and thirty 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.880 one college students whether and how often they had experienced 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.199 the urge to jump off of tall things. Then they 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.160 examined their depressive symptoms in their history of suicidal thoughts. 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.319 They also took a look at how sensitive these people 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.000 were to anxiety, as well as how fearful they were 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.680 of anxiety symptoms such as an elevated heartbeat and shortness 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:50.520 of breath. Among those who had never had suicidal thoughts, still, 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.640 seventeen percent of them had experienced the urge to jump. 0:13:55.200 --> 0:14:00.800 Among those who had experienced sidal thoughts, fifty six percent 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:05.480 experienced it. So that's significant if if it lines up, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.520 now we'll talk. There's a little bit of methodology stuff 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.520 with this, this that I'm calling the question. The researchers 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.800 were also interested specifically in the sensitivity to reactive safety 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.920 signals and if that corresponded to a higher likelihood of 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.920 experiencing the urge to jump. So to mark this reactivity, 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.560 they looked at levels of anxiety sensitivity, such as a 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.000 faster heartbeat. Uh. This was because previous research suggested that 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.240 high anxiety sensitivity is actually tied to a tendency for 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:41.520 us as human beings, to misinterpret random, innocuous bodily sensations 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.120 as being dangerous. Yeah, we we tend to We tend 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.040 to make that air and cognition because there is a 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.720 survival advantage in jumping to conclusions rather than not making 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.360 any conclusions. One gets you eaten by a tiger. One 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.080 just means you go about your daily life constantly looking 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.240 for the tiger that might eave. Yeah, I mean I've 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.120 actually experienced this, I'd say, in like the last two weeks, 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:05.640 where like I'll get up and I'll read about current 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.480 events in the news, and my heart will start beating 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.280 rapidly and I'll go, oh, this is is there something wrong? 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.040 Do I need to go see my doctor? And I 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:18.120 realized it's anxiety. It's it's not normal, but I'm having 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.800 a normal anxious reaction to the things that I'm reading about. Right, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.160 But then my thought is like, oh, what if I 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.920 have a heart attack? You know. So this is kind 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.920 of along those lines where the ideas that we misinterpret 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:36.000 these random bodily sensations as being dangerous. Okay. So their 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:41.000 studies finding was that yes, more sensitivity to anxiety was 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.360 related to the frequency of the urge to jump, especially 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:50.040 in people who had never experienced suicidal thoughts. They also 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.920 interpreted this as people without a history of suicidal thoughts 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:58.200 as being more sensitive to bodily cues that they could misinterpret. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.240 So that's interesting. So if you've never et suicidal thoughts, 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.080 they're saying you're more likely to interpret say like your 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:11.320 heart beating faster as as something of danger. It's interesting. Yeah, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.200 I mean, it's kind of like if you if you've 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.120 ever had an anxiety attack, if you if you have, 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.720 if you have one and they're rare, then the first 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.280 time you have one, it can be extremely alarmente. If 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.040 you think, oh goodness, I'm about to die now. So 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:29.440 the study ultimately translates as follows, people with high anxiety 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:36.120 sensitivity were more likely to have higher chances of suicidal thoughts. Okay, 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.880 that makes sense. So if you're sensitive to the bodily 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.560 reactions and you're worried about being anxious, then you're more 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:46.200 likely to have suicidal thoughts. But subsequently, you were also 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.960 more likely to report experiencing this call of the void phenomenon. 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.560 So that's interesting. Why do we experience this though Like? 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.880 Where is this coming from? Well, let's take a quick 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.360 break and we come back. We'll dive into that very question. 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:09.320 All right, we're back. So one theory about this call 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.080 of the void phenomenon or the idea of high place phenomenon, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.240 is that there's something going on with a temporary uncoupling 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.760 of our different perceptual systems in our brains. It's kind 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.720 of like cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Yeah, the idea, and this 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.640 comes up comes up all the time on the podcast, 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.800 the idea that you have two different ideas, two different 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.600 inclinations in your mind, and they conflict with each other. 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.120 So the classic, the easy one to go to here, 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.320 of course, is oh, I I think homosexuality is wrong, 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.880 but I have homosexual thoughts in my head. These two 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.040 do not go with one another, um and this generates 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.439 it's kind of a friction in the mind exactly. So 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.800 their theory was that when you're standing on the edge 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:56.320 of a skyscraper, your brain has fast fear circuitry, that's 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.560 what they called it. Obviously it's not circuitry that and 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.480 this may alert you of danger, just the danger of hey, 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.280 you could fall, But then our perceptual system in our 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.280 brain is slower than our fear system, and that kicks 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.560 in afterwards and it makes you realize there's actually no danger. 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.679 So to make sense of the safety signal. Our brain 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.600 mixes this up as cognitive dissonance and we assume we 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.240 want to jump, which is why people get confused by this. 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.320 So this is interesting. So individuals who are experiencing this 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.600 are not necessarily suicidal. Instead, it seems to reflect their 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:39.320 sensitivity to internal cues affirming their actual will to live. 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.359 So that lines up with what we're saying earlier that 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.159 they're sensitive to, like oh, I'm feeling anxious or oh 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.760 I'm feeling depressed or whatever, So it makes sense that 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.480 they would be more sensitive to their both their fear 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.720 system and their perception system. Yeah. I do like how 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.640 the main idea here is that you're safe, but you're 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.359 still taking in the sensory data says you're not safe. 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.000 And I think that we actually get a little bit 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.919 of this when we watch a particularly terrifying video like 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.040 we've all, especially within the age of go pro. I'm 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.280 sure everyone has seen like base jumping, crazy skiing videos, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.520 stuff with great heights, or people climbing up antennas, and 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.400 you watch it and you couldn't be more safe watching 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.000 it in your you know, living room, in your office, 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.320 on your phone or your personal computer. But you feel 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:32.159 a visceral, you know, if it's probably empathic. But also 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.240 you're taking in certain sense data about a dangerous environment 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.920 and you can't help it feel part of that. Yeah. Yeah, 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:42.760 that's interesting, and I think I'm leaning towards agreeing with 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.840 this theory. But let's remember that this study, there's only 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.000 one study on this as far as I can tell, 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:55.080 and it isn't conclusive. Um. Their explanation is simply theoretical 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.320 and it doesn't have neurological evidence. Uh, the methodology also 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.440 has some weak so let's acknowledge those. First of all, 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.800 they only used university students, and let's be honest, university 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.119 students are not representative of humanity, right right, Yeah, it 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.680 tends to be a profile of a very specific socio economic, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:19.080 racial division of society. Yeah, and the volunteers themselves were confessing, well, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:23.199 they may have misremembered their experience or even falsely reported it. 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.359 So that doesn't mean the studies flawed. It just means 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.920 we need more research. Um. So a proposal for this 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.480 is to actually conduct an experiment where scientists would have 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.399 to take subjects and position them at different heights to 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:43.120 test at what elevation they begin having the thought to jump. Um, 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.680 there's another explanation that goes along I think with what 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:49.280 you were saying about the watching those videos, which is 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.800 that it could simply be connected to our thrill of 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:57.359 not buckling under fear, which is a kind of cognitive dissonance. Um, 0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:59.720 this is the same reason why we go to haunted houses, right, 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:05.200 both real and uh, you know, fun haunted houses. But 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.960 like think about like when you're a little kid, uh 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.080 and somebody says, let's go that house over there is haunted, 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.080 I dare you to go into it, Right, It's kind 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.439 of the same vibe. Uh. And then subsequently you go 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.480 to something like I don't know, our version is another 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:21.719 world here in Atlanta. You go to that you know 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:23.760 somebody's going to jump out with a fake chainsaw and 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.119 try to scare you. But the thrill of overcoming that 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.320 fear is part of why you go and pay money 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.280 to do it. Yeah, I mean, it fills you with endorphins. 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.440 You're you're very much living in the moment. People who 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.760 aren't into meditation or yoga, they still might go to 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.320 a haunted house or watch a scary movie, and that's 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.199 that's kind of meditative in a sense. It puts you 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.240 in the now. Yeah, it's It's probably another reason why 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.199 jump scares are so successful in horror films. There's an 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.119 addiction to it. Yeah, And it's simple and it works, 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:57.520 and it ties into our basic evolutionary state to be 0:21:58.080 --> 0:21:59.920 on the lookout for the tiger that jumps out of 0:21:59.920 --> 0:22:03.199 the grass. Now, there's a no take on all of this, 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.240 and it ties in, I think nicely to what you 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:07.600 said about the varying heights. At what height does it 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.520 kick in? For my own part, I feel like there 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:15.840 is definitely a difference between any call of the void 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.520 that occurs at at lower heights as opposed to like 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:25.320 truly awesome heights like Grand Canyon, cliff Edge type. Total obliteration. Yeah, 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:28.119 total obliteration, I think is the thing because it's such 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.439 it's such a it would be such a drastic choice. Okay, 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.720 it would be such a choice between life and and 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:37.000 and I don't know. I almost to say death like 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.840 puts too much of an atmospheric twist on it, but 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.680 more like between being an unding and I think this 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.440