1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And as always 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: on Saturdays, the vault opens up, the door swings wide, 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: and the darkness beckons. But today there's a special kind 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: of beckoning of the darkness. Right, that's right, We're gonna 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: be talking about the call of the void, jumping into 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: the void. This is an episode today with Christian back 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: at the Dawn of and this one deals with like 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: the the curious situation we often experience if we stay 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: at the top of a tall building. Now so might experience. 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: This is the the the the sort of fear. It's 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: not quite a it's like a mix between a fear 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: and a temptation to jump or or the way I've 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: I've experienced it before. And as in an example I 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: explained in this episode is that I'll be are to 16 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: be stay on the top of the Empire State Building 17 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: and there's no way I could actually jump off. I 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: couldn't you know, I wouldn't be able to scale the 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: barrier and then jump. But I I'll find myself thinking 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: about what would happen if I threw my wallet over 21 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: the side, you know, what if I what have I 22 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: got my my phone out and somehow managed to fling 23 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: that over the side as well. What is this peculiar 24 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: call of the void we experience? I think what would 25 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: happen is you would suddenly have a lot more free time, 26 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: probably probably, But then I'd be freaking about out about 27 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: who's trying to call me and email me? It would, yeah, 28 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: it would. It would be bad either way, the call 29 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: of the void or the call of the phone. I 30 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: don't know which is worse. Uh well, either way, this 31 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: is a really interesting topic. I'm glad you and Christian 32 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: explored it, and I'm glad we get to share it 33 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: with you out there in the audience. Yet again. Welcome 34 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: to stuff to blow your mind from how stuff works, Carl. 35 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: One day, the men and dogs were sitting on the 36 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: crest of a cliff which fell away straight down to 37 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: naked bedrock three ft below. John Thornton was sitting near 38 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: the edge, bucket his shoulder. A thoughtless whim sees Thornton, 39 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: and he drew the attention of hands and pete to 40 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: the experiment he had in mind. Jump buck He commanded, 41 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: sweeping his arm out over the chasm. The next instant. 42 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: He was grappling with Buck on the extreme edge while 43 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: Hands and Pete were dragging them back into safety. It's uncanny, 44 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: Pete said, after it was over and they had caught 45 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: their speech. Thornton shook his head. No, it is splendid 46 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: and it is terrible too, do you know it sometimes 47 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: makes me afraid. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. 48 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and my name is Christian Sager. Hey, Robert, 49 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: have you ever been standing at the edge of like 50 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: a cliff or a building, or maybe you're waiting for 51 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: a train, like a subway train. You just think I 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: should jump? Well, it never quite manifests itself as I 53 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: should jump. I find that for me, it manifests itself 54 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: as what if I did jump? Like you know, it's 55 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: this intense contemplation of the choice I have in the matter, 56 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: and the fact that I could if I wanted to 57 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: fling myself off of this cliff, you know, fall into 58 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon, go in front of a train, or 59 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: a variant of this thing I that I encountered a 60 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: top of the Empire State Building. Have you ever been 61 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: up to the top of the Empire State Building? You know, 62 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: that they have these, it's basically being in a cage match. 63 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: There's no you would have There's basically no way you 64 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: could throw yourself off the Empire State Building, at least 65 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: not on a whim. It would take, it would take 66 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: some some some planning and some effort. But what I 67 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: did find myself struggling with was what if I threw 68 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: my wallet over the side down into the street below. 69 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: That would be horrible, And so I ended ended up 70 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: wrestling with that possibility, which is kind of like throwing 71 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: a piece of your life over the side. Isn't there 72 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: that adage? And I think how stuff works is even 73 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: done an article on this about like what happens when 74 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: you throw a penny over the side of the Empire 75 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: State Building? And I think there's the urban legend is 76 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: that it can kill a person. Yeah, I don't know 77 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: what the science is bey and that I seem to 78 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: recall it doesn't quite pan out. It's it's been a 79 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: while since I've looked at that one, but I still 80 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go throwing pennies over I feel like 81 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: my wallet would maybe just balks somebody in't have probably 82 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: with my wallet would probably not go through somebody. Yeah. Well. 83 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: The other one of these is uh captured in Woody 84 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: Ellen's Annie Hall movie when Christopher Walkin is talking about 85 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: how he wants to swerve into traffic and at night 86 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: and he's looking at the other headlights coming the other way. 87 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: They're all related. Uh, and this is you. You out 88 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: there are probably going like, this is real morbid guys, 89 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: where are you going with this? Uh? This is an 90 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: actual phenomenon, so so common that it has multiple names, 91 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: and there has been a major study done on it. Um, 92 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: so we're gonna cover that today. It is the sudden 93 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: feeling that we want to put ourselves in harms way. 94 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: Examples of this often include the urge to jump off 95 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: a tap building or to veer into oncoming traffic. The 96 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: French term for it is a pel dou vede, which 97 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: means call of the Void, which I really like. And 98 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: that's how I how I came to this was there's 99 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: this pretty brutal hardcore band that I like called Call 100 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: of the Void, and I was typing it into Google 101 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: the other day in an article on this phenomenon popped 102 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: up and I was like, I've never heard of this before, 103 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: and then I said to you let's let's talk about this. Yeah, 104 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: I mean I knew about it, I've had the experience, 105 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: but I feel like most people have had the experience. 106 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: I would I would definitely like to hear from anyone 107 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: who has not had some variant of this. Now you 108 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: mentioned it. It's called often referred to as Call of 109 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: the Void, and some of our listeners might have recommended 110 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: the reading at the top of the episode as being 111 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: from Jack London's nineteen o three novel The Call of 112 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: the Wild. I like how this particular bit from that novel. 113 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: Certainly that this is the main part of the novel 114 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: that always sticks out in my mind because it gets 115 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: into similar territory as the Call of the Void, the 116 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: idea that with a split decision you could bring being 117 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: into un being. In this case it's the dog and 118 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: really the but the dog also um represents much about 119 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: the central character in The Call in the Wild as well. 120 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: What's strange about it is it's like the ultimate form 121 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: of control when you feel like you don't have control, right, 122 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: It's like this ultimate expression where you're like, oh, like 123 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: you think I don't have control over anything. The one 124 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: thing I can totally control is I could just kill 125 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: myself right now if I wanted to, which is horrible 126 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: to think about, but we're gonna get into it. There's 127 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: like a lot of theories as to where this thing 128 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: comes from. I don't know about you, but like when 129 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: I've experienced it, I feel it in the pit of 130 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: my stomach, like it's like a full body sensation. It's 131 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: not just like a little like thought like I wonder 132 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: if I if I jumped, you know, there's this weird Yeah, 133 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: it's gravity, visceral kind of vibe from it. It's it's 134 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 1: not so much like you're having to hold yourself down, 135 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: but sometimes you do kind of. I have been in 136 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: places where I feel like I kind of want to 137 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: squat down and maybe touch the ground a little bit, 138 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: even though I'm not near the edge now. One thing 139 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: I will say is that I have not felt this 140 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: recently because I find that when I am in places 141 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: with ledges or anything of that nature, I tend to 142 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: be there with my wife and son, and so I'm 143 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: more concerned about them falling out off, especially my son 144 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: being like just four going on five, He falls off 145 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: the stuff all the time, so like he and he 146 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: ends up generating all of my anxiety about people falling 147 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: or jumping, and then I don't I guess I have 148 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: less room for myself. Sure, well that makes sense based 149 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: on the cognitive dissonance theory that we're going to talk 150 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: about today, that that your parental authority would like override, 151 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: override the biologue goal like brain stuff that's going on 152 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: theoretically here that causes it. There's a whole theory as 153 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: to what causes this seems close, But let's go through 154 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: all this stuff and kind of figure it out. Before 155 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: we do that. I wanted to add a John paulse 156 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Sartra observed this decades ago, and he said that this 157 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: emotion is unsettling because it creates an unnerving, shaky sensation 158 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: of not being able to trust one's own instincts, which 159 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: is which is really interesting. Like I hadn't even thought 160 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: about it as that that like you feel like, so 161 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: I just expressed it as a thing where it's like 162 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: you feel like you're in total control. But then his 163 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: version of it is you're totally out of control. Well, 164 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of the you know, it's It's another reason 165 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: I like the Call of the Wild quote here, because 166 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: he talks about this thing being splendid and terrible at 167 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: the same time. And to to stand it's it's like 168 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon, Like the 169 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon is an awesome experience to see that much emptiness, 170 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: but it's also you feel vulnerable. If you're gonna go 171 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: and you want to go in style, that seems like 172 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: that would be kind of like a beautiful way to 173 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: do it. Well, a lot of people have Yeah, I mean, 174 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm not suicidal. Don't think that, audience, And we're gonna 175 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: talk about suicidal thoughts and relation to this as well, 176 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: because it's a pretty serious topic. But I could there 177 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: there's something, there is a beauty to it, and um, 178 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: this is where Mr Sigmund Freud comes in and we'll 179 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: we'll we'll talk about that as well. But first let's 180 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: look at the more recent study. This is really the 181 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: hinge of this episode. So in twleven, a team of 182 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: scientists from Florida State University decided to investigate it, and 183 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: this was in the Journal of Effective Disorders and the 184 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: authors of the paper were led by a woman named 185 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: Jennifer Haymes. She's was a graduate student and she's currently 186 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: faculty at Notre Dame UH and this was at F 187 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: s us Joiner Lab. And you might be going, why 188 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: would anybody want to study this? Like, where would this 189 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: come from? Well, the idea here is that could shine 190 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: light on the whole idea of a death drive, that 191 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: some suicides are impulsive and have nothing to do with depression. Uh. 192 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: And that was interesting. I hadn't really thought of that 193 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: before myself, but I could reading up more on Freud's 194 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: death drive theory, I guess I could see where that 195 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: came from. Yeah, I do have to say for my 196 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: own part, I'm I'm I'll entertain the possibility that that exists, 197 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: but I'm rather I'm rather doubtful that suicide is can 198 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: occur or or does occur in any significant to any 199 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: significant degree, completely isolated from depression or willful intent, Like 200 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: the idea that someone's just like, oh I could jump 201 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: off the into the canyon and die. Let's do it, bam, done, 202 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: the end of deal. Like, I can see the impulse 203 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: being a factor if there is already some underlying depression, 204 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: or if one already had some sort of a plan 205 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: in mind, and this is just like this is the 206 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: day that I act on it. Yeah, So you know, 207 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: I think that it's worth saying. Like, uh, from my 208 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: subjective experience, like I said, I myself am not suicidal, 209 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: and I haven't. I've had what we will refer to 210 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: later as suicidal thinking, but I've never had suicidal planning. 211 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: And there's a major difference, right and and and this 212 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: is sort of the call of the void, the high 213 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: the high place phenomenon. Those are those are versions of 214 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: suicidal thinking. That's about as far as it's gone for me, right, yeah, well, 215 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: suicidal thinking. I feel like it's often tied into with 216 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: the romance of suicide because we have so many stories 217 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: and you know, these generally are very lopsided in their 218 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: presentation of suicide. Uh, the display it is this this noble, 219 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: poetic thing that doomed dreamers and doomed lovers Romeo and Julia, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 220 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: but we've all been teenagers, so we've all had moments 221 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: where we're like, oh, my life is so tragic, and 222 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: you might envision the scenario, but there's to your point, 223 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,599 Speaker 1: there's a difference between envisioning it, daydreaming about it, and 224 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: uh and thinking about when everyone will say when you're gone, 225 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: versus actually putting some sort of plan in place. But 226 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: for our listeners, I do want to establish upfront, you know, 227 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: I have experience with people who were suicidal or have 228 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: committed suicide, so I am sympathetic to that, and I 229 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: don't want this episode to feel like it's callous. This 230 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: is connected to that, but it's a The suicidal thinking 231 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: that goes along with the call of the void syndrome 232 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 1: seems to be a far cry from the actual act 233 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: of it um and but we're gonna get into that 234 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the episode. So back to this research. 235 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: They found that more than thirty percent of the people 236 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: they talked to said they had experienced this phenomenon at 237 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: least once, and the researchers refer to it in their 238 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: study as high place phenomenon. They weren't take king into 239 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: account like throwing yourself in front of a train or 240 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: driving an oncoming traffic uh. They were also curious whether 241 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: it was related to a person's history of suicidal thinking, 242 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: and from their findings they found that it is common 243 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: even among people who have no depression or suicidal thinking history. 244 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: So this was their methodology. They asked four and thirty 245 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: one college students whether and how often they had experienced 246 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: the urge to jump off of tall things. Then they 247 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: examined their depressive symptoms in their history of suicidal thoughts. 248 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: They also took a look at how sensitive these people 249 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: were to anxiety, as well as how fearful they were 250 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: of anxiety symptoms such as an elevated heartbeat and shortness 251 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: of breath. Among those who had never had suicidal thoughts, still, 252 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: seventeen percent of them had experienced the urge to jump. 253 00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: Among those who had experienced sidal thoughts, fifty six percent 254 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: experienced it. So that's significant if if it lines up, 255 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: now we'll talk. There's a little bit of methodology stuff 256 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: with this, this that I'm calling the question. The researchers 257 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: were also interested specifically in the sensitivity to reactive safety 258 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: signals and if that corresponded to a higher likelihood of 259 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: experiencing the urge to jump. So to mark this reactivity, 260 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: they looked at levels of anxiety sensitivity, such as a 261 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: faster heartbeat. Uh. This was because previous research suggested that 262 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: high anxiety sensitivity is actually tied to a tendency for 263 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: us as human beings, to misinterpret random, innocuous bodily sensations 264 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: as being dangerous. Yeah, we we tend to We tend 265 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: to make that air and cognition because there is a 266 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: survival advantage in jumping to conclusions rather than not making 267 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: any conclusions. One gets you eaten by a tiger. One 268 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: just means you go about your daily life constantly looking 269 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: for the tiger that might eave. Yeah, I mean I've 270 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: actually experienced this, I'd say, in like the last two weeks, 271 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: where like I'll get up and I'll read about current 272 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: events in the news, and my heart will start beating 273 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: rapidly and I'll go, oh, this is is there something wrong? 274 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: Do I need to go see my doctor? And I 275 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: realized it's anxiety. It's it's not normal, but I'm having 276 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: a normal anxious reaction to the things that I'm reading about. Right, 277 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: But then my thought is like, oh, what if I 278 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: have a heart attack? You know. So this is kind 279 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: of along those lines where the ideas that we misinterpret 280 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: these random bodily sensations as being dangerous. Okay. So their 281 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: studies finding was that yes, more sensitivity to anxiety was 282 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: related to the frequency of the urge to jump, especially 283 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: in people who had never experienced suicidal thoughts. They also 284 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: interpreted this as people without a history of suicidal thoughts 285 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: as being more sensitive to bodily cues that they could misinterpret. 286 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: So that's interesting. So if you've never et suicidal thoughts, 287 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: they're saying you're more likely to interpret say like your 288 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: heart beating faster as as something of danger. It's interesting. Yeah, 289 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of like if you if you've 290 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: ever had an anxiety attack, if you if you have, 291 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: if you have one and they're rare, then the first 292 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: time you have one, it can be extremely alarmente. If 293 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: you think, oh goodness, I'm about to die now. So 294 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: the study ultimately translates as follows, people with high anxiety 295 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: sensitivity were more likely to have higher chances of suicidal thoughts. Okay, 296 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: that makes sense. So if you're sensitive to the bodily 297 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: reactions and you're worried about being anxious, then you're more 298 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: likely to have suicidal thoughts. But subsequently, you were also 299 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: more likely to report experiencing this call of the void phenomenon. 300 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: So that's interesting. Why do we experience this though Like? 301 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: Where is this coming from? Well, let's take a quick 302 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: break and we come back. We'll dive into that very question. 303 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: All right, we're back. So one theory about this call 304 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: of the void phenomenon or the idea of high place phenomenon, 305 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: is that there's something going on with a temporary uncoupling 306 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: of our different perceptual systems in our brains. It's kind 307 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: of like cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Yeah, the idea, and this 308 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: comes up comes up all the time on the podcast, 309 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: the idea that you have two different ideas, two different 310 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: inclinations in your mind, and they conflict with each other. 311 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: So the classic, the easy one to go to here, 312 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: of course, is oh, I I think homosexuality is wrong, 313 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: but I have homosexual thoughts in my head. These two 314 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: do not go with one another, um and this generates 315 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: it's kind of a friction in the mind exactly. So 316 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: their theory was that when you're standing on the edge 317 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: of a skyscraper, your brain has fast fear circuitry, that's 318 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: what they called it. Obviously it's not circuitry that and 319 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: this may alert you of danger, just the danger of hey, 320 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: you could fall, But then our perceptual system in our 321 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: brain is slower than our fear system, and that kicks 322 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: in afterwards and it makes you realize there's actually no danger. 323 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: So to make sense of the safety signal. Our brain 324 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: mixes this up as cognitive dissonance and we assume we 325 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: want to jump, which is why people get confused by this. 326 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: So this is interesting. So individuals who are experiencing this 327 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: are not necessarily suicidal. Instead, it seems to reflect their 328 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: sensitivity to internal cues affirming their actual will to live. 329 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: So that lines up with what we're saying earlier that 330 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: they're sensitive to, like oh, I'm feeling anxious or oh 331 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm feeling depressed or whatever, So it makes sense that 332 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: they would be more sensitive to their both their fear 333 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: system and their perception system. Yeah. I do like how 334 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: the main idea here is that you're safe, but you're 335 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: still taking in the sensory data says you're not safe. 336 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: And I think that we actually get a little bit 337 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: of this when we watch a particularly terrifying video like 338 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: we've all, especially within the age of go pro. I'm 339 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: sure everyone has seen like base jumping, crazy skiing videos, 340 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: stuff with great heights, or people climbing up antennas, and 341 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: you watch it and you couldn't be more safe watching 342 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: it in your you know, living room, in your office, 343 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: on your phone or your personal computer. But you feel 344 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: a visceral, you know, if it's probably empathic. But also 345 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: you're taking in certain sense data about a dangerous environment 346 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: and you can't help it feel part of that. Yeah. Yeah, 347 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: that's interesting, and I think I'm leaning towards agreeing with 348 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: this theory. But let's remember that this study, there's only 349 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: one study on this as far as I can tell, 350 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: and it isn't conclusive. Um. Their explanation is simply theoretical 351 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have neurological evidence. Uh, the methodology also 352 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: has some weak so let's acknowledge those. First of all, 353 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: they only used university students, and let's be honest, university 354 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: students are not representative of humanity, right right, Yeah, it 355 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: tends to be a profile of a very specific socio economic, 356 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: racial division of society. Yeah, and the volunteers themselves were confessing, well, 357 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: they may have misremembered their experience or even falsely reported it. 358 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: So that doesn't mean the studies flawed. It just means 359 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: we need more research. Um. So a proposal for this 360 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: is to actually conduct an experiment where scientists would have 361 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: to take subjects and position them at different heights to 362 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: test at what elevation they begin having the thought to jump. Um, 363 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: there's another explanation that goes along I think with what 364 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: you were saying about the watching those videos, which is 365 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: that it could simply be connected to our thrill of 366 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: not buckling under fear, which is a kind of cognitive dissonance. Um, 367 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: this is the same reason why we go to haunted houses, right, 368 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: both real and uh, you know, fun haunted houses. But 369 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: like think about like when you're a little kid, uh 370 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: and somebody says, let's go that house over there is haunted, 371 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: I dare you to go into it, Right, It's kind 372 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: of the same vibe. Uh. And then subsequently you go 373 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: to something like I don't know, our version is another 374 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: world here in Atlanta. You go to that you know 375 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: somebody's going to jump out with a fake chainsaw and 376 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: try to scare you. But the thrill of overcoming that 377 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: fear is part of why you go and pay money 378 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, I mean, it fills you with endorphins. 379 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: You're you're very much living in the moment. People who 380 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: aren't into meditation or yoga, they still might go to 381 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: a haunted house or watch a scary movie, and that's 382 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 1: that's kind of meditative in a sense. It puts you 383 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: in the now. Yeah, it's It's probably another reason why 384 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: jump scares are so successful in horror films. There's an 385 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: addiction to it. Yeah, And it's simple and it works, 386 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: and it ties into our basic evolutionary state to be 387 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: on the lookout for the tiger that jumps out of 388 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: the grass. Now, there's a no take on all of this, 389 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: and it ties in, I think nicely to what you 390 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: said about the varying heights. At what height does it 391 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: kick in? For my own part, I feel like there 392 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: is definitely a difference between any call of the void 393 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: that occurs at at lower heights as opposed to like 394 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: truly awesome heights like Grand Canyon, cliff Edge type. Total obliteration. Yeah, 395 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: total obliteration, I think is the thing because it's such 396 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: it's such a it would be such a drastic choice. Okay, 397 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: it would be such a choice between life and and 398 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: and I don't know. I almost to say death like 399 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: puts too much of an atmospheric twist on it, but 400 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: more like between being an unding and I think this 401 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: is I keep thinking this is the two roads diverge 402 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: in a Yellow Woods approach. Um, So in the choose 403 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: your own adventure book that is life. We encounter plenty 404 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 1: of working paths, right, but many of these are hardly 405 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: choices at all. I mean, on some level, we all 406 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: choose whether they're going to go to work this morning 407 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: or find a liquor store and drink our purchase in 408 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: the woods behind the Yeah. Yeah, I mean for most 409 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: of us, a lot of people struggle with that every morning. Well, 410 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: some people realistically do. No, I'm not I'm not being sarcastic. Yeah, 411 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: but but for many of us, it's not really a choice. 412 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: Like the things we do are the things we do. 413 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: We have this pattern and there's really this is where 414 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: we get into that idea that we're not really making 415 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: choices and more if at all. However, there are choices 416 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: that are more real than others. Where two paths of 417 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: equal weight and possibility are presented, and uh, and what 418 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: is weightier than the old to be or not to be? 419 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: The choice between being and unbing that stands before us 420 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: when we stand at the edge of a great expanse. 421 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: So it's not so much that we're tempted, but that 422 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: our path choosing brain can't help but engage in one 423 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: of its many cognitive superpowers, cognitive superpower that we all 424 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: possess and uh and used to thrive. And this is 425 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: a chronosthesia, which is also known as mental time to travel. 426 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: So this entails our ability to be aware of our 427 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: past and future and to envision multiple possible futures before us. 428 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: So it's the key to our survival. But it's also 429 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: the reason you might listen to NPR in the morning 430 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: and mentally time travel to the dawn of the Third 431 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: World War. So in that anxiety, yeah, the anxiety, anxiety 432 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: comes out and you feel it in your body. So 433 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: in that moment in the car listening to NBR, we're 434 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: forced to wonder what what we're capable of, what we're 435 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: willing to lose to gain. And on some level, it's 436 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: kind of like the you know, the scene in the 437 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: Old Testament with Abraham raising his dagger up in the 438 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: sky and then above his son Isaac, and it's just well, 439 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: the hand of the Angel come in time to spare him. Yeah, yeah, 440 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: looking to something beyond, which gets into the Freudian aspect. Yeah, 441 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: so that's another possible explanation for it. I tend to 442 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: feel like we've got some of this definitely a part 443 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: of it. But I also think the co native dissonance 444 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: argument is also very valid, and it does like we've 445 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: talked before on the show about how situations of cognitive 446 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: dissonance often lend themselves well to supernatural experience. That's not 447 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 1: to say actual supernatural occurrence, but the experience of something 448 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: supernatural to us, especially in our demon possession, exorcism, matter 449 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: sism episode, that is hugely tied to cognitive dissonance. Yeah. 450 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: And when you get down to it, like the the 451 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: idea of of encountering the choice between being and un being, 452 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: this this kind of panicky pondering over to what extent 453 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: you have free willed, to what extent you have control 454 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: over your fate? I mean that is that's pretty supernatural 455 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: sounding to me. Yeah. Yeah, Well this is a good 456 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: opportunity for us to get into a guy who, let's 457 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: be honest, in some situations, was quasi supernatural. Uh and 458 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: his name was Sigmund Freud. Uh So Freud after a 459 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: lot of his better known principles, Uh connected this to 460 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: all the phenomenon to an idea that sometimes is referred 461 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: to as a death wish, although that just calls to 462 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: mind Charles Bronson for me, but it is referred to 463 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: as the death drive, articulated in his ninety essay Beyond 464 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: the Pleasure Principle, and this describes a drive in all 465 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: of us towards self destruction and a return to the inorganic. Now, 466 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: I used a paper by Joanne Faulkner on the subject 467 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: to sort of see unpackaged this. Now. She argues that 468 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: the death drive is when Freud departs from scientific methodology entirely, 469 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: and it articulates what he thought of as higher functions 470 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: in the psyche that weren't necessarily empirical. Okay, so this 471 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: is why I say, like, we're getting into supernatural territory here. 472 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: Freud thought this was beyond sciences. Um, it's highly speculative 473 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: and it's not grounded in scientific perspective. But Freud's idea 474 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: was that the death drive circumvented our pleasure in an 475 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: effort to undo a person as an organic whole, and 476 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: so as such it gave us both pleasure and discomfort. 477 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: I can sort of see where he's coming from here 478 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: based on what we were previously talking about with like, 479 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, scares right, Like it's both pleasurable and uncomfortable. 480 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: But his idea, of course, being Freud, there has to 481 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: be this model framework so that everything fits within. And 482 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: it was that the death drive was the opposite of 483 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: what he called the life drive or the libido. And 484 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: while the libido attaches itself to others and creates ties 485 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: of affection, the death drive destroys relationships and strives for disintegration. 486 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: So if the libido manifests insects, the death drive manifests 487 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: in aggression, and if this is directed inward, it could 488 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: result in suicide. But here's the thing. Does the death 489 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: drive lead to what we today understand as depression? Right? 490 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: Like Freud didn't really have a grasp on that the 491 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: way we do now. It's possible if it's directed inward, 492 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: I guess. But in fact, some Eastern philosophy indicates that 493 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: self centered acts maybe a form of this kind of 494 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: self destruction, That selfishness itself isolates us from others, leads 495 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: us to not having support. So maybe there's a little 496 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: bit of a connection between depression and death drive. I 497 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not a pcent on board with this. 498 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: I see how it could sort of make sense at 499 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: the time, and it's connected to thoughts that we're having. 500 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: But huh, what is interesting you mentioned the Eastern philosophies. 501 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: It is interesting to think of self destruction perhaps is 502 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: it's not merely well, let's say, to to take self 503 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: destruction and think of it in terms of of of 504 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: the of of the wheel of sam Sara and the 505 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: different states, and the idea that you know, you're reincarnated 506 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: into two upper and lower forms. Yeah. One of the 507 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: realms is that of the hungry ghosts, where one is 508 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: just you know, constantly grasping for something and and and 509 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: unable to to fill yourself with it. And and there's 510 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: another realm, which is more of the hell room. And 511 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: this is where I feel like things really line up 512 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: with this idea of death drive just this you know, 513 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: rageful uh, you know, assault on the things that anger you. 514 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: I can give you like a personal version of this 515 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: that I experienced. And this might be a little bit 516 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: t m I, but um I often I'm compelled by 517 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: the urge to just go be somewhere in complete isolation. 518 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: Like I think when I when I have this urge, 519 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I like a like a rundown motel 520 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, off of a highway somewhere, right, 521 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: and I'll just sitting there for a week, Like there's 522 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: something about that that's just very compelling to me. And 523 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to destroy myself. I don't want to 524 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: commit suicide, but there's something about it that that draws 525 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: me there, right, And I think based on what you're 526 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: talking about here, there's a similar idea here, right, Like 527 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: if you believe in reincarnation and you think to yourself, well, 528 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: if I die, I'm going to be reincarnated, possibly as 529 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: a lower life form. Right, there's something kind of zen 530 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: about that, right, There's something kind of relaxing about the 531 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: idea of like I'll come back as a toad. Let's 532 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: just live life as a toad, and I won't have 533 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: as many concerns to bear. It's true, yeah, now, But 534 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: I like this idea that you brought up here too 535 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: because it also brings to mind like what each of 536 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: us are. So we're certainly we're an organism that's that's alive. 537 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: We're also an organism that's is generally moving in various 538 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: uh social shares, and you have all of these kind 539 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: of like invisible spider webs of social obligation all around us, 540 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: and so to do to walk away from all of 541 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: that first, say a week and go to this cabin 542 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: in the woods. You are not necessarily destroying yourself, but 543 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: you might be doing damage to these various social spider 544 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: webs that are that have bound you up totally. And 545 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: I can see where it would be at once liberating 546 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: to walk away from all of those, uh, and then 547 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: but then at the same time many would argue, well, 548 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: that is self destructive. You were doing damage to these 549 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: social structures that had helped maintain you. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, 550 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: And that's compelling to write. The pop culture example of 551 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: this that drew me in the most, And my wife 552 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: immediately recognized it when we saw this, and she's like, 553 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: you love this, don't you was And spoilers for this 554 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: TV show if you don't want to, you might learn 555 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: something you don't want to know about Breaking Bad here. 556 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: But in Breaking Bad, there's a point where the main 557 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: character it goes in hiding to New Hampshire for a 558 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: year and he just lives in if small cottage with 559 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: nothing but like you know, canned food and newspapers for 560 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: a year and he just sits there and thinks on 561 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: what he's done and sleeps and eats and is he 562 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: just is and he's entrapped by snow when we find him. 563 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: And I saw it, and I was just like, oh God, 564 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: that that seems like the best vacation ever to me. 565 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: But at the cost of all of his social relationships, 566 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: which is sort of the point in the show. Uh. 567 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me a lot of a Warren 568 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: Zevon song that also when I when I have this feeling, 569 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: I'll play this song and listen to it. It's called 570 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: Splendid Isolation. It's great because the lyrics are basically rolling 571 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: through these three different through or four different scenarios that 572 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: he is craving, like I want to live on the 573 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: Upper east Side and never go down in the street, 574 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, put tinfoil up on the window. I want 575 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: to live in the desert like Georgia O'Keefe. You know, 576 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: he's doing scenarios where um, we're we're Waren is talking 577 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: about just walking away from everything and just encapsulating himself 578 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: in uh in in in total isolation and and ultimately 579 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: kind of self destructive self centeredness, because he ends up 580 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: like making comparisons to to Neverland Ranch interesting, you know, 581 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: locking yourself up in your own private Disney sort of thing. Well, 582 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: I never put tinfoil on my window, but in my 583 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: twenties I have to admit, Uh, I took cardboard and 584 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: nailed it up over all the windows in my bedroom 585 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: just because, like I wanted complete and utter darkness in there. 586 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: Did you have a black light poster? No? No, I 587 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: didn't missed opportunities mushroom wizards. Well, back to this Freud thing, 588 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: I think it reeks of the subjective. It's a little 589 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: bit of magical thinking, which is fun, but most people 590 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: in this realm, in this discipline think of it as 591 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: being eccentric. Regardless, it does apply to depression. If you 592 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: understand that there's an innate voice that wishes for death 593 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: and destruction, well that's that's helpful, right At least in 594 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: therapy you can help separate that and distance yourself from 595 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: those thoughts, and that takes away their power and allows 596 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: you to challenge them and minimize them and disregard them. 597 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: So there's something to that. People who have just like 598 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: outright dismissed Freud. I'm sort of in the middle, Like, 599 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: I don't buy it a hundred percent of the time, 600 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: but I do think that there's some value and that 601 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 1: he helped the profession sort of edge along slowly. Yeah, 602 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: I mean I I always come back to my my 603 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: lens analogy, where what I what I want to walk 604 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: around with with the Freud lens in place all the time, 605 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: with my Freud goggles on all the time. No, I 606 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: would not, but I do find it as helpful in 607 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: varying scenarios to pull the the Freud lens down over 608 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: my own vision, of my own worldview and think, oh, well, 609 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: how might the supply to the current scenario, What does what? 610 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: How does Freud illuminate what's going on here? Well, why 611 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: don't we take a quick break, and when we come back, 612 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: we're going to delve into some actual statistics about suicidal 613 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: thinking that may help us unraveled this call of the 614 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: void phenomenon a little more. Alright, we're back. So when 615 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: mental health professionals refer to these call of the void moments, 616 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: they usually call it suicidal ideation. But that term seems 617 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: broad for our purposes here today, So let's let's try 618 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: to separate out what the difference might be. Okay. In eleven, 619 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: the c d C conducted a really big study examining 620 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: statistics about suicide, suicidal thinking, uh, and um, suicidal preparation, 621 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: and they found that three point seven percent of adults 622 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: in the United States had had suicidal thoughts in just 623 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: the last year. Now, let's put that into perspective. That's 624 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: eight point three million people. That's a lot of people. 625 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: Other studies have placed this even higher, saying that it's 626 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: actually around eight to ten of the population. Now let's 627 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: look at the previous study on the high place phenomenon. 628 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: That's not even close to the thirty to fifty percent 629 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: of people who reported that they had experienced that phenomenon. Right, 630 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: So it seems like what we think of as suicidal 631 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: ideation and and high place phenomenon or call of the void, 632 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: those are different. It seems like it suggests that there's 633 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: there's some kind of different thought process going on there. Yeah, 634 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: And of course with all of this, it depends on 635 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: exactly how you're phrasing the question and how the individual 636 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: on the other end views suicidal thoughts, uh, etcetera. I mean, 637 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: because the big thing is like, what does that individual's 638 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: culture say about suicide? Yeah, Now, even there there's this 639 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that we would have to 640 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: bust out in a longer episode. But even within the 641 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: United States, that you're going to have varying subsets of 642 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: people that are going to have different ideas about suicide. Yeah, 643 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: and that actually plays in these statistics as well. Uh 644 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: In the c d C report, they actually summarize the 645 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: data on ninety two thousand, two hundred and sixty four respondents. 646 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: But this establishes a difference between having suicidal thoughts and 647 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 1: actually making plans for a suicide or attempting it. Plans 648 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: and attempts are very different from just thinking about it. Okay, 649 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: The estimates vary based on a couple of things, sociodemographic 650 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: factors as well as the region of the country that 651 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: you live in. So what you're just saying, here we go. 652 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: Suicidal thoughts were higher among young adults between the ages 653 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: of eighteen to twenty nine than they were for people 654 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: over thirty. It was also significantly higher for women. In general. 655 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: Non Hispanic Whites were the group with the highest prevalence 656 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: of suicidal thoughts, while non Hispanic Asians were the group 657 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: with the lowest suicidal thoughts. And regional factors, this is 658 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: really complicated, but they think it could be related to 659 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: indicators such as divorce rates or resources to access like healthcare. Uh, 660 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: and so the cause and effect relationship here is unknown, 661 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: but there's a there's a couple of things like, for instance, 662 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: adults with less than a high school education and those 663 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: who are unemployed at the time were more likely to 664 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: have these thoughts. Finally, those in the Midwest and the 665 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: West were more likely to have suicidal thoughts than those 666 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: in the Northeast in the South. Now, I don't know 667 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: how to unpack that, but what you presented sounds sounds close, 668 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: which is that like, various cultures have different beliefs about suicide, right, 669 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,399 Speaker 1: and and or like they said that, there's like real 670 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: world factors like how much access they have to healthcare 671 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: or or or do they have a job, things like that. 672 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: So there's limitations to this accounting though that we should 673 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: note as well. For instance, previous studies indicate that adults, 674 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: when they're talking about suicidal thoughts, they under report, especially 675 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: when they're talking about when they were adolescents. So if 676 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: they're adults now and they're saying, well, when I was 677 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: an adolescent, this is you know, this is how often 678 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: I experienced that they're they're known to under report. That 679 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: makes sense to me, Yeah, I mean, I mean you're 680 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: a different person when you're adult when you're an adolescent, 681 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: So you're really kind of teasing apart the thoughts and 682 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: motivations of a different you entire So I can see 683 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: where there might be a tendency to say, oh, well 684 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: that that that twenty year old me, that eighteen year 685 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: old me. You didn't know what you're talking about now, 686 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: even serious about that. And this study also didn't account 687 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of populations. Uh, first of all, institutionalized populations, 688 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,879 Speaker 1: which would probably have I mean, we would assume would 689 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: have a higher rate of thinking about suicide. It and 690 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: it totally cut out any kind of Native American populations. 691 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: So and that wasn't like on purpose, it was just 692 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: because they didn't have access to enough evidence. Yeah, I 693 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: think there is a large factor here that comes down 694 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: to is suicide an open pathway to this individual? Is 695 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: it at all socially acceptable? To what degree is it 696 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: socially acceptable? And that is going to be governed by 697 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 1: your culture, your history. Indeed, what what books and movies, 698 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: what beats of bits of fiction you you you value, 699 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: But these are all going to help to skew this 700 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: idea of of whether or not suicide is a practical 701 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: option for an individual. Yeah, but very different from the 702 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: idea of standing on a ledge and looking and just 703 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: kind of getting that urge to je right. So that's 704 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: why I put these statistics in here to sort of 705 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: just give you like, these are very different things, and 706 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: we can see the statistical differences just between these two studies. 707 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: It's also worth remembering all of this stuff for both 708 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: studies is self reported, and that is not a reliable 709 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: Now to sort of pull out of the gloomier aspects 710 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: of this this topic, um, I will ask everyone to 711 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: to think about the call of the void. You know, uh, 712 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: the situation in which the gravity of disastrous choices. You know, 713 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: it's not merely anxiety inducing or or threatening to one 714 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 1: sense of self control, but it is exhilarating. It's it's 715 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: it's sort of endorphin pumping high that want to achieves 716 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: from skydiving or even less dangerous smaller acts. And and 717 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: plus what is the true call of the void but 718 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: but a contemplation, however unformed of oblivion, a complete emptying 719 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: of self, not merely hearing the call of the void, 720 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 1: but but kind of touching the void, having almost a 721 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: spiritual moment. To go back to that quote from Call 722 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: of the Wild again, you know something that is at 723 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: once splendid and terrible. Yeah, And so, as we've been 724 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: doing in some of our episodes recently, we want to 725 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: make sure if you heard this and this like touched 726 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: upon something for you, and and you were hearing these 727 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: statistics or whatever and you thought, well, this this resonates 728 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: within me and I'm a little concerned. There's actually a 729 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: nonprofit that we would like to throw a line out too, 730 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: so that you, in case you're feeling that way, have 731 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: some support. And it's the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. Uh. 732 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: It's a support line. It's seven, it's free, it's totally confidential. 733 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: It's for people who are in distress. Uh. And it 734 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: helps prevent crises and provides resources for you and your 735 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: loved ones. So maybe it's not you, maybe it's somebody 736 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. So the number for that is one 737 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 1: eight hundred two seven three eight to five five. Again, 738 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: it's one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five. 739 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: All right, and hey, if you want to hear more 740 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: at the pisodes of stuff to blow your mind. If 741 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: you want to check out videos, blog post, you name 742 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: it links out to our social media accounts, head on 743 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's right, 744 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: and I want to hear from you the audience. Have 745 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 1: you experienced the call of a void? Have you thought 746 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 1: about jumping off a tall building or the Grand Canyon 747 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: or maybe even onto a train track before, but of 748 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: course you didn't want to. You just got mixed up 749 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: with these feelings inside. That's that's basically how we all 750 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: feel nowadays. I'm just so mixed up with these feelings inside. Uh, 751 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: let us know. You can let us know on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, 752 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: or Instagram, or you can write us at blow the 753 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff works dot com. And it close 754 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: out here today. I'm just gonna read another quote. This 755 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: one comes from a book by Robert Graves. A number 756 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: of you may be familiar with him from his more 757 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: popular work such as I Claudius, but he also wrote 758 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: a book called Goodbye to All That, and he talks 759 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: about the Great Four. He talks about mountain climbing, and 760 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: this is just a quick quote where he talks about climbing. 761 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: My worst climb was on a little wit the most 762 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: formidable of the precipices, when at a point that needed 763 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: most concentration, a raven circled round the party in great sweeps. 764 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: I found this curiously unsettling, because one climbs only up 765 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: and down or sideways, and the ravens seem to be 766 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: suggesting diverse other possible dimensions of movement, tempting us to 767 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: let go our hold and join him. For more on 768 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff 769 00:44:37,520 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: works dot Com? No,