1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: All right, we're back, fellow conspiracy realist. This is another 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: classic episode for this week. I have to tell you, Matt, 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: dear friend, this is an episode I wish we could 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: do again, not because I think we did a bad job, 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: but because it's so much fun. It is fun. It 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: strikes right into my heart, like deep into my heart. 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: When we're talking about megachurches, televangelists, people who might be 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: using faith to turn a profit and you know, not 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: caring so much about the actual materials that are in 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: things they say, it's really frustrating, really hurtful, and it 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: makes me angry. I wish we could do one of 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: these a year, just to remind everybody, Hey, by the way, 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: this is happening still. Yeah, this is one for the 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: Kenneth Copeland's, the Kreflo dollars all their ilk. Let's learn 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: about prosperity theology, from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. 16 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. Well, hello, 18 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the ministry of stuff they don't 19 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: want you to know. They call me Matt, and I 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,919 Speaker 1: have no the illuminated one brown sham Rama Shama, Mama 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: Mamada here doing that scene from Temple of Doom. It's 22 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: I was momentarily speaking in tongues. Forgive me, I was 23 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: covering my heart. I think that's uh, that's um just 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: saying kaliman. And then you're supposed to say, I'm num Sharbai. 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: Oh isn't that right? Oh? Yeah, I guess so from 26 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: Temple of Doom him. Well, we're talking about a different 27 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of temple today. There we go, not necessarily one 28 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: of the doom, but potentially. Yeah, they call me Ben 29 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: you are you? This is not the Indiana Jones Temple 30 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: of Doomed tribute show. This is stuff they don't want 31 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: you to know. And Null. Your segue was fantastic. What 32 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: are we talking about today? Today? We're talking about a 33 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: litt us something called prosperity theology, or I guess we 34 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: could also think of it as televangelism. Yes, that's certainly. Yeah, 35 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: it's an arm of it. Yeah, So here we go 36 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: another religious episode. It's not particularly religious. We're not talking 37 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: about a religion so much as we're examining some of 38 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: the people operate it within it, and a movement the 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: US that you have maybe heard about. And yeah, I 40 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: think televangelism absolutely ties into this. We hear the phrase evangelists, 41 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: but what does that mean. It's a person who seeks 42 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: to convert other people to a certain faith. That is 43 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: also known as proselytizing. It's typically used in a Christian 44 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: context here in the West. You know, we don't hear 45 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: much about Buddhist evangelists, so we don't even know if 46 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: that's a thing. So the connotation here involves public speaking 47 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: and or performance. So while, for instance, our superproducer Casey 48 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: Pegram for today we just have a stable of superproducers. 49 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: These days, we are in the money a posse of 50 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: a super positive superproducers in a stable. So we'll pick 51 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: on Casey a little bit and use him as an example. 52 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: If Casey was proselytizing people, he might just decide to 53 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: write a letter, you know what I mean, like, dear, 54 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: let's pick someone random, dear Al Franken or Donald Trump 55 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: or whomever. I sincerely believe in this particular thing, and 56 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: I think you should too, you know, and it could 57 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: be any sort of spiritual idea. So it's a solicitation basically, Yeah, 58 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: it's a solicitation in that regard. And that's probably a 59 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: very polite letter because Casey is a very talented writer. Yeah. 60 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: We and we just had Dragon Con here and you 61 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: will always see at least something that I see every 62 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: year during Dragon Con are evangelists who are proselytizing in 63 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: the streets with big signs, you know, talking about Christianity 64 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: and come to Jesus and all that. It's it's a 65 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: thing you've probably seen. Yeah, they were a little lazier 66 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: this year. I saw one dude that just had a 67 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: boombox that was playing a message on loop and he 68 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: just stood there holding the song. Well, he's there all weekends, 69 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's hard work. He can't sit down 70 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: maybe as a lunch break or something. Yeah, and it 71 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: seemed a little phoned into me. Which there is a 72 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: yelp for a street corner protests that would be great. 73 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: So evangelism is a little bit more in your face. 74 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: That's the connotation. Were Casey practicing a type of proselytization 75 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: called evangelism, he would maybe go the whole nine. You know. 76 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: A linen suit, a tent that travels across the sun 77 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: belt superproducer Casey Pegram's Powerhouse of Signs, Wonders and Deliverance. 78 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: I'm actually selling myself on this. What do you What 79 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: do you think, Casey? Okay, we got a thumbs up. Ye. 80 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: And you're you're familiar with this in fiction and you're 81 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: familiar with this um with the televised version of it, 82 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: which called televangelist. Great example would be in the show Carnival, 83 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: there is a whole traveling preacher scenario where they set 84 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: up a tent and you know, people um speaking tongues 85 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: and sometimes get the Holy Spirit in them, laying hands 86 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:36,559 Speaker 1: and all of that. A lot of that old school 87 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: kind of showmanship that goes into this idea of evangelism. Yeah, 88 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: and I also remember one of my favorite creepy versions 89 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: of it is the tent revival preacher in True Detective 90 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: Season one, who has this rambling monologue that is super 91 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: lovecrafty and a sinister but people are treating it as 92 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: though you know, they were in a listening to a 93 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: sermon on the gospel. Isn't that just one appearance of 94 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: that guy? Like, if that's it, I think he comes back, 95 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: but he's very briefly. You never see him preaching tone 96 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: set Yeah, but boy does it ever set that doom. 97 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: He sees your true feis, yeah, he sees. It reminds 98 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: me of when I saw a Third Eye Blind and 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: he's talking about seeing people's true faces, the singer, and 100 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: he says, you know what, I want to see your 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: true face. And when I see him, you know what 102 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: they're gonna be saying. They're gonna say f yeah, woa. 103 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: It turns out it's a bit he does. It's a 104 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: little bit of a street preacher kind of vibe. Nice. 105 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: So he is perhaps also proselytizing for the Church of 106 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: Third Eye Blind. The term evangelism derives from biblical sources 107 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: in or modern connotation. Started as a Greek word. It 108 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: originally meant something like messenger of good news, which is 109 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: why you would hear people say, have you heard the 110 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: good news? And that's all about Jesus died for your 111 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: sins and came back and if you believe in him, 112 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: then you get to go to heaven. That's the good news. 113 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: Or it's a Geico commercial, Okay, it's possible. It's just 114 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: we live in a weird time, right, Yeah, So we've 115 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: got evangelical Christianity right. You'll often hear evangelism assigned to that, 116 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: and so, for instance, there could be a Methodist evangelist, right, 117 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: there could be any any degree of Protestant. They've got 118 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: a several doctrinal things in common. One of the biggest, 119 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: of course, is the emphasis on the born again nature 120 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: of religious salvation. Yes, right, And here in the United 121 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: States we've had really a special relationship with evangelism. It's 122 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: it's just thrived here in this country. I mean across 123 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: the world as well, but here, I would say, at 124 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: least from my research and what I've seen, it just thrives. 125 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? That's a great question. 126 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: I think maybe it's just where I don't know, maybe 127 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: it matches up with the American dream in some way, 128 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: or the idea of rebirth. Perhaps. Yeah, I don't know. 129 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: I feel like I can culturally tie it into some things. 130 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like there's a reason that America 131 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: is such a rich cultural soil for this sort of stuff. 132 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: But also this has expanded now across the world. Wherever 133 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: there are Protestants, they're also going to be evangelical organizations 134 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: big time and a huge political movement. I suppose you 135 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: could call it, or at least a big driver of 136 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: political change the Republican Party specifically. Yeah, and also there's 137 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to leave the Catholic Church out. The 138 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: thing we have to remember, which may strike some of 139 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: us who are more secular as surprising, is that although 140 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: multiple denominations of a given religion exist, in this case Christianity, 141 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: within those denominations there are movements right and those movements, 142 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: as Noel said, can often drastically affect the political landscape. 143 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: In Central America and in South America there is there 144 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: is a movement called liberation theology, which these which totally 145 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: struck the more hawkish right wing part of the American 146 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: government as a threat because there are these left wing 147 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: uh Catholic priest who are saying, well, this is how 148 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: we think Christianity should be applied toward a more socialist environment, 149 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: which is you know, a big no no, it's a 150 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: big invitation to the US to medal in countries affairs. 151 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, the the um these genres or maybe denominations 152 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: movements is probably the best word, or not always created equally. 153 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: Like some individual evangelical preachers have reached the pinnacle of 154 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: stardom and success you know Casey Pegram Powerhouse of Signs, Wonders, 155 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: and what's the other one. It's a long name. Yeah, 156 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have made it such a long name. And 157 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: some movements blossom only to enter a decline in later years. 158 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: One especially prominent here in the US and controversial type 159 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: of Christian belief system is known as prosperity theology. You 160 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: might not have heard the term before, you have definitely 161 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: heard of the women and men preaching it. We said 162 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: it at the top of the show, yes, so hopefully 163 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: they've heard it at least once. Hopefully we've heard it 164 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: at least once. Wait, what's the idea here? So the 165 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: idea here is that God. What God wants for you 166 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: is to be well like, to be healthy, and to 167 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: be financially blessed. God wants that for you. The problem 168 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: is with you. It's with your faith. You don't have 169 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 1: enough faith. You've got to have that. You've got to 170 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: you have to send money and donations to these places 171 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: to essentially increase your faith in a way like I'm 172 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: going to give this money in faith to a ministry 173 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: and then I am going to receive something back from that. 174 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to get my stuff back tenfold from God 175 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: my blessings, or at least that's according to the leaders 176 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: of these particular denominations, right then. Yeah, so this is 177 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: the idea. I think that's a good summation there. Met 178 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: The idea is that personal faith, what's called positive speech 179 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: or positive confession, and donations to religious causes will be 180 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: repaid in in material and literal terms, right as well 181 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:43,359 Speaker 1: as spiritual. So it's not just karma, it's like cash. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 182 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: And the Bible is portrayed in a lot of prosperity 183 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: theology as a contract between God and humans very if 184 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: then proposition, if humans have faith in God, God will 185 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: deliver security and prosperity. Sickness and poverty, interestingly enough, are 186 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: viewed as curses that can be broken by the power 187 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: of faith. That's sort of the power of positive thinking. 188 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: And I think what a lot of people may be 189 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: surprised to learn about this movement is that it's built 190 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: on a secular concept, the secret. Basically, yeah, it's built 191 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: on a concept old and that the secret also borrows 192 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: from called new thought. It's popular in the late nineteenth 193 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: early twentieth century, and it was pretty much yeah, the 194 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: modern interpretation would be the Secret. What's the secret? That's 195 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: the thing that it's all about new Thought? It's it 196 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: was a book that was written that essentially says, you 197 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: put positive thoughts out into the world and you can 198 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: make them real. Anything that you truly believe you can 199 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: make happen essentially, which again is a later interpretation of 200 00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: the original New Thought thing right from the late eighteens. 201 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: So the Secret doesn't repackage this for a long time. 202 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: I just remember seeing that book everywhere, and I've never 203 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: had any idea what it was. It's because Oprah mentioned it, 204 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: because Oprah Winfrey said it well. The idea, the philosophy 205 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: behind New Thought was that the key to health and 206 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: wealth acquisition is thinking, visualizing, and speaking the right words. 207 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: And not all of the New Thought proponents or fans 208 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: were Christian, but they all generally held that the individual 209 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: human being had divinity and that they could affect physical 210 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: change through their mental state. Mind over matters the power 211 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: of positive thinking exactly, and that's what the Secret is, 212 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: got it more or less. I hope we didn't ruin 213 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: the book. Can you spoil a book like that? Kind 214 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: of you you're supposed to buy it that's the whole 215 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,599 Speaker 1: point of the book to it. Yeah, but I mean surely, no, no, no, 216 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: Doing it will give you more benefit than just hearing us, 217 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: you know, give the cliff notes. Well, well you could 218 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: also you could buy it, or you could just think 219 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: positively that it's already in your house, let me know 220 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: what happens, or you just think, imagine and visualize that 221 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: you've already read it. Now, I know, I'm I'm not. 222 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: I don't mean to sound rude. There are quantitative studies 223 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: that prove the at least the medical effects of positive 224 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: thinking in terms of recuperation rates, stuff like that. But 225 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: we're talking mind control here, right. In other words, if 226 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: you could correctly channel your mental energy, you could harness 227 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: material results almost, you know, very quickly. A man named 228 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: Norman Vincent Peel was pastor of a place called Marble 229 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: Collegiate Church in New York City, and he popularized this 230 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: idea in these techniques in America with his book The 231 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: Power of Positive Thinking, which I know you've heard of 232 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: this book nineteen fifty two. I could have written that book. 233 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: I just came put that name a minute ago. My 234 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: friend's mom had that book on her shelf when I 235 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: was in middle school. I remember good read. I never 236 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: touched it. Oh, they wouldn't let you touch it. No, 237 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: I just remember been shrined in glass. Yeah. I can 238 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: just see it seeing there with a bunch of other 239 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: self self help stuff, just all about you know, being 240 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: positive and getting what you want. We should write a 241 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: self help book. Yeah, I could write one. It feels 242 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: like it'd be easy. It feels like it'd be easy 243 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: to write a self help book, but really difficult to 244 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: write a good one. That's what I'm saying, exactly, exactly 245 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: very much. Yeah, my friend growing up, my dad just 246 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: had like all the Stephen King books and I didn't 247 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: read those either because that was too scarred. No, yeah, 248 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: and read those until high school. Oh man, think of which. 249 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: You guys still down to go see it at four 250 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: o'clock today, Yes, that's true. We're gonna go have an adventure. 251 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: We're gonna go see a team adventure. I'm gonna have 252 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: to cover my ears. Has anyone seen it yet? I have? Oh? Sorry, 253 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: you're on the ball kind of person I am. You 254 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: can just you warn me about the jumps, okay, okay, okay, 255 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: you give me a sharp elbow to the rib would 256 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: something spooky. Do you want me to sit behind you 257 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: and just occasionally lean in and go here it comes. 258 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: We could get that app that's just children laughing. Oh 259 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: app it should be you're welcome technology, or I guess 260 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: you're welcome venture capitalists. Sorry, we've gone a little bit 261 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: off the rails. Please let us know what you think 262 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: of it. Obviously we're excited to go see the film, 263 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: So the Power Positive Thinking Seminal book. In books from 264 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: this time period, we can discern some of the key 265 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: recurring elements of what would we can see the DNA 266 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: ultimately what would become prosperity Gospel. Speaking the right words, 267 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: invoking a universal law of success with the words, and 268 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: having faith in oneself and those abilities. So a lot 269 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: of these ideas influenced, among tons of others. E. W. Kenyon, 270 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: who was an evangelist and the founder of the Bethel 271 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: Bible Institute. So his particular approach to theology was the 272 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: basis for one of the Prosperity Gospel's most particular features. 273 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: Um speaking the right words to bring about a new 274 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: reality manifesting you know what you believe, what you wish 275 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: to be true. UM, so what you confess you possess. 276 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a reverse version of like the 277 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: traveler in Ghostbusters, or actually full circle like it, you know, 278 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: where the kids see the monster as whatever they fear 279 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: the most. This is like a positive version of that. 280 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: I could go with that. Yeah, I wanted to bring it, 281 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Kigan is a link to the popular 282 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: prosperity preachers that form the foundation of the modern prosperity 283 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: gospel movement. Earlier we had asked about why this took 284 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: such strong route. I'm starting to see it a little 285 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: clearer and why it flourished. It's quintessentially American an individualist. 286 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: There's this idea that each person is responsible for her 287 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: or his own happiness or you know, whatever their gender 288 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: might be, and their health and their situation in life, 289 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: and then applying mental energy in the appropriate direction is 290 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: in and of itself sufficient to cure any ills. The 291 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: idea of positive thinking as a panacea. But then also bootstraps. 292 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: But then also bootstraps. So there. Yeah, I'm glad you 293 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: said that, because there are a couple of other contributing 294 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: concepts in play here. There's like pick yourself up by 295 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: your yeah yeah, yeah, back when people always have bootstraps. Yeah, 296 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: those are the little loops at the top. I honestly 297 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: don't know what they do for hanging up your boots 298 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: on a peg. Yeah sure, yep. They definitely feel like 299 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: they're pulling them on. Yeah, pulling them on. It's like that. 300 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: If they're at the back. I think you can hang 301 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: them places by the straps, boots boot hangers. Man, Hey, 302 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: right in and let us know how you use your bootstraps. 303 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: Do you hang your boots or do you just do 304 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 1: you just pull them like a tab so you can 305 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: pop your heel in And well what is the bootstrapping? 306 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: Let's get into this. So the idea here is that 307 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: there are two As as I said, there are two 308 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: contributing concepts in play. In addition to this philosophical concept 309 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: of the new thought, there's the idea of capitalism, more 310 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: specifically the way a lot of Western culture idolizes the 311 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: Protestant work ethic, so called. In nineteen o five, very 312 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: important author named Max Feber published The Protestant Ethic and 313 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: the Spirit of Capitalism, and in this he said specifically 314 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: that Protestants have a different approach to labor, and that 315 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: this approach to labor is crucial to the development of 316 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: capitalism and industrialization. He mainly thought about group that is 317 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: that were called the Calvinist Right, and they believed in 318 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: this idea of predestination, which is a really uncool and 319 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: depressing concept. The idea was a flat circle idea, how 320 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: so that God like everything exists and was created as 321 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: God created it. So essentially God knows who's going to heaven, 322 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 1: who's going to hell, like, who's going to be good, 323 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: who's gonna write You're born damned or safe? And no 324 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: free will right essentially, Yeah, no free are like automatons 325 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: that are just set on a path, a predetermined path, 326 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: and that is all we can possibly achieve. And we 327 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: can still get in we can still get in trouble 328 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: though that's also the worst part. If you want to 329 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: get into the mindset of some of this predestination and 330 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: just the religious atmosphere of the time, probably some of 331 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: the most strange and terrifying things to read are old sermons. 332 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: One of the bangers of this, one of the breakout 333 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: singles is a peace called Sinners in the Hand of 334 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: an Angry God. Yeah, and one it's It's terrified right. 335 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: This uh sermon contains ten considerations that are all pretty 336 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: pretty much downers. Uh, God may cast wicked men into 337 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: Hell at any given moment, several very specific things about 338 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: the wicked and uh, the the idea that God is 339 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: like this anti hero and an action film and is 340 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: coming for you. And uh, just just to let you 341 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: know how it ends. Uh, okay to spoil this? Do 342 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: you think? I think so. I think it's been out 343 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: for stat limitations. Casey's okay to spoiled. Okay, okay from 344 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: Jonathan Edwards that sinners in the hand of the angry guy. 345 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: It ends like this. Therefore, let everyone that is out 346 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: of Christ now awake and fly from the wrath to come. 347 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over 348 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: a great part of this congregation. Let everyone fly out 349 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: of sodom haste and disc for your lives. Look not 350 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: behind you, escape to the mountain lest you be consumed. Beautiful. Oh, 351 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: I know, I don't know if they like pause for 352 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: a band to play, or if everybody just sort of 353 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: files out. Wow. Well, here's the thing. There are a 354 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: lot of humans on this planet even now that I'm 355 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: assuming take that very seriously. Well, I think the evangelicals 356 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: in general are sort of the equivalent of like strict 357 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: constitutional constructionists, where it's like the Bible is to be 358 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: taken pretty literally, and a lot of their tenants come 359 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: from specific passages, even in terms of tithing, which we'll 360 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: get into a little later. Yea. And in uh Max 361 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: Weber's idea about the Protestant work ethic, he argues that 362 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: Protestants were looking for outward signs of God's favor money 363 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: and material goods, and for ways to express inward virtue, 364 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: that being hard work, where's those bootstraps that would be 365 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: the inward virtue? Like working, working diligently to better yourself 366 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: shows your shows your inner goodness, and then the right 367 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: and then that devote and that reward is shown in 368 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: like you know your physical success and if you believe 369 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: that you're predetermined to be good, right, So if you're 370 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: doing good things, it's almost that you have to believe 371 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: that you are predetermined to be good. So it's this 372 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: interesting cycle feedback. Yeah, exactly. And so today this interpretation 373 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: is still the subject of a lot of debate, but 374 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: it's a popular perspective. And when we come back, we'll 375 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: tell you about the final contributing thread to the formation 376 00:23:49,359 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: of prosperity theology. We've returned and we made it. Do 377 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: you guys have a good break? Yeah? Yeah. We talked 378 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: a little more about centers in the hand of Angry God, 379 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: which is just that guy is writing fire there um. 380 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: The final contribution to the DNA of what we call 381 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: prosperity theology today, it's the development of charismatic Pentecostal churches 382 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: in the US. This is an umbrella term for a 383 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: decentralized group of churches. We're talking like hundreds and hundreds 384 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: of denominations, over seven hundred. They're characterized by an emphasis 385 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: on what's known as spiritual gifts or charisms, from which 386 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: the term charismatic is drawn. A worshiper might experience, for example, 387 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: the gift of faith, healing right, or glossolalia, which is 388 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: the fancy dressed up with a tie words. Everything sounds 389 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: like gloss for speaking in tongues, right, that's true. I 390 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: love the word. It's fun to say. When you say 391 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: glass la. If you say it repeatedly, it's kind of 392 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: sounds like you're talking tongues are warm fallows function. It's 393 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: kind of like ulu late. I don't know that one, 394 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: but I love it. That's when people go oh, it's 395 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: a word that describes very specific sound, like when you go, oh, 396 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: I can't do it. My throat's a little messed up, 397 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: but I think it, you know, like a wa la 398 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: la la and ululations. Oh that was a little high 399 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, just to get back into this the 400 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: tradition of worship in this way, it meant for the 401 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: believer that God will manifest in some concrete way to 402 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: the faithful, the people who are worshiping. So you're physically 403 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: going to have something happen when you're thinking about God 404 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: and worshiping God in your mind. Do you have an example? Yeah, well, 405 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: those are the examples. The speaking in tongues or running 406 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: feeling something happening in your yeah. Yeah. Also, so like 407 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: when you see somebody kind of like going into convulsions 408 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: or whatever, or like someone's the preachers laying hands and 409 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,239 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden they start like you know, 410 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: flip out physically touching you. So in addition, the decentralized 411 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: nature of these churches means that there's room for individual 412 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: leaders to become sort of the focus of personality based organizations. 413 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: Many of these officials or preachers might practice faith healing 414 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: or similar practices, and they would build up these very 415 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: devoted personal followings with this, With these three ideas right 416 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: Protestant work ethic, new thought philosophy, and charismatic pentecostal preaching. 417 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: With these three kind of vultronning and captain planeting together, 418 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: prosperity theology bubbles to the surface. And it started like 419 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: the work ethic Max Weber describes as a way to 420 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: justify the big elephant in the room of most human civilizations. 421 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: During the Gilded Age in the US, it came around 422 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: to justify why some people were rich and others any 423 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: many more were poor. I love this next quote. We've 424 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: got an early prosperity Gospel proponent, the Baptist preacher Russell H. Conwell, 425 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: Oh boy, get it now, a little on the nose, 426 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: he told his mostly poor congregation in nineteen fifteen. Quote, 427 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: I say you ought to be rich, You have no 428 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: right to be poor? Why the very idea, the nerve 429 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: running around with no shoes, impoverishing left and right. What's next? Yeah, 430 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: pick yourself up by your bootstrap. Exactly. He's punishing, or 431 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: he's saying that you were being punished because of your failures, 432 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: not because of some larger structural inequality that's keeping these 433 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: people in a state of poverty. And this kind of interpretation, 434 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: regardless value feel about it, it it went pretty far and 435 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: it was pretty well known. God was occasionally portrayed as 436 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: a banker dispensing money in material goods to the deserving, 437 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: and Jesus Christ, as some was seen as the first 438 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: and best capitalist. It's a very modern spin on very 439 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: very old stories, and it took off in some circles, 440 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: and today prosperity theology has a pretty significant amount of support. 441 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, a pull from The Times 442 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: found that seventeen percent of American Christians identify explicitly like yes, 443 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: I am part of prosperity theology. That means that there's 444 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: a good chance that a number of people having this 445 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: conversation with us and listening would identify themselves in that 446 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: way a little less than one out of five. Well 447 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: that's really great. Later on, we're going to need to 448 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: hear from you and we'll get to it. Yeah, absolutely, 449 00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: because again, not all not all churches practicing prosperity theology 450 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: are the same, or I would even say in some 451 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: cases remotely related right, So, thirty one percent of the 452 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: American Christians polls believe that if you give your money 453 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: to God, God will bless you with more money, and 454 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: a full sixty one percent agree with the more general 455 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: idea that God wants people to be prosperous. However, mainstream 456 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: evangelicals are a lot of them, can't you gotta generalize 457 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: a little bit. They consider this prosperity theology to be 458 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: a heresy in a way, something not of the true faith. 459 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: And why here's where it gets crazy. There are a 460 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: lot of critics. Yeah, they don't believe the official stance 461 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: of the proponents. Instead of seeing them as motivated or 462 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: motivational religious figures, those skeptical prosperity theologies see these people 463 00:29:51,960 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: as essentially con artists. Conwells, Conway Twitties. Did you know, 464 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: and this is a sidebar, do you know in Nashville? 465 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: I think it was Nashville, there was a thing that 466 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: would spring up, like a seasonal amusement park. It was 467 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: called Twitty City and it was Conway Twitty. And they 468 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: also had the rights to like the tweet tweety bird cartoon, 469 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, like the Yellow Bird City, and they would 470 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: call it Twitty City. I thought that, Yeah, I is 471 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: that the one? That's the one? That's the one. I 472 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: would think six Flags would have that unlock. Yeah, that 473 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: would make a lot more sense. Must be some kind 474 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: of a must be some kind of backroom deal going 475 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: on between Twitty and Yeah. It was a different, different 476 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: world back then. I got a camel license there. Wow, 477 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: for some reason, they had a thing where you could 478 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: ride camels like a breeding license test. No, I just 479 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: say I got a license to operate a camel. Also, 480 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: maybe they have the Renaissance Fair here. You don't have 481 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: to have a license though, that's pretty intense. No, I 482 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: would they gave it to I was a kid. Yeah, 483 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, here you go. Oh it was 484 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: just a cute thing. Yeah, I don't think it was. 485 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: I don't think it would be a situation where we 486 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: will be later on an airplane or a boat and 487 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: someone goes, oh, no, is there a camel operator in 488 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: the house. You'd have that covered. Before we get too 489 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: deep into this, I just want to point out that 490 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: there are degrees of this stuff too, and we're going 491 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: to talk about some of the extreme ones upfront, and 492 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: then you know, as it a lot of this stuff 493 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: filters into more mainstream, kind of sure accepted religious culture 494 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: as well, but we're going to kind of start with 495 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: some of the more extreme ones. And we're not saying 496 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: that tithing or giving to your faith or giving to 497 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: your church is inherently a bad thing at all. It's 498 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: a personal choice. But we're going to start with some 499 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: examples where I don't think anyone would argue that there 500 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: is a little bit of ill intent, but there's at 501 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: least some abuse going on of some sorts. Well. As 502 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: we said before, as we always say, we're not going 503 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: to tell you what to believe or interfere with your 504 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: own spiritual practices. It's a very personal, in private matter. 505 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: And we did say, I think we said earlier in 506 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: the show too, that these movements are not created equally, 507 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: and in some cases, what was the language I used, 508 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: they might not even be remotely related. They believe in 509 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,239 Speaker 1: health and wealth, but a very different ideas about how 510 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 1: to get there. And to that point, as we said before, 511 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the critics, some of the strongest critics, 512 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: come from the church. Prosperity theology is certainly not a 513 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: part of mainstream evangelicalism. In fact, evangelicals have condemned for 514 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: a large part prosperity Gospels to know in certain terms, 515 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: just for the past few decades, even you'll hear some 516 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: of the loudest criticism of this stuff along with its 517 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: most well known practitioners like good old Joel Austin, probably 518 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: one of the most successful religious figures of his sort currently, 519 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: and it caught some bad press recently in the wake 520 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: of Hurricane Harvey because his staff said that the church 521 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: was inaccessible with due to flooding, and that turned out, 522 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: of course, not to be the case. You know, I 523 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: don't pretend to know the exact particulars of what went 524 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: on at that church for that thing, but man, it 525 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: is surprising to see how quickly social media can blow 526 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: something like that up, where just you know, a couple 527 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: thousand retweets and oh, man, Joel Austin's got to go 528 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: on the news. The Internet has always been a fickle 529 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: mistress with capricious favorites, right, So yeah, There's a guy 530 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: named Gordon Fee, a prominent Pentecostal scholar who wrote a 531 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: book called The Disease of Health and Wealth Gospels. There's 532 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: a Calvinist pastor named John Piper who said the prosperity 533 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: Gospel will not make anyone praise Jesus. It will make 534 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: people praise prosperity. It's like an idol you're creating. Yeah, 535 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: and there's a Utah pastor named Rick Henderson who said 536 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: Joel Austin frequently misunderstands important matters of faith and doctrine, 537 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: and that last criticism seems to be based more on 538 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: the the nuts and bolts of knowing the Bible. Right. 539 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: I do. Also, while we were mentioning books, want to 540 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: highlight Blest a History of the American Prosperity Gospel by 541 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: Kate Bohler. Thanks Kate Boler. Yeah, it's it's monograph and 542 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 1: it's probably the best work of its kind out currently 543 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: if you'd like to read more. Secular forces also criticize 544 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: prosperity theology and accuse it of exploiting the poor. This 545 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: accusation is a response to prosperity theology is heavy, and 546 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: we mean heavy emphasis on tithing. So in prosperity theology, 547 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: tithing or giving money to the church should ideally be 548 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: someone's first fruits, their initial earnings. We want to go 549 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: if we want to be brass tacks about it a 550 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: little more specific then that would mean ten percent of 551 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: your gross income. Yeah, your net income, ten percent of 552 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: your pre tax So Uncle Sam comes second, Uncle Sam 553 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: comes second, Sally May comes third. Credit card debt, alimony payments, mortgages, 554 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: medical debt, which is one of the primary causes of 555 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: financial personal disaster in this country. So this money, this 556 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: tithing is seen as an investment. By showing faith, parishioners 557 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: could have a hundredfold return on their investment. This is 558 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: a reference to a verse in the Gospel of Mark 559 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: about those who suffer for Christ receiving a hundredfold what 560 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: they had lost. In his book Laws of Prosperity, Ken 561 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: Copeland have rights. Do you want a hundredfold return on 562 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. 563 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: No bank in the world offers this kind of return. 564 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: Praise the Lord. From this perspective, tithing is a financially 565 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: responsible thing to do. That sounds like a like a 566 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: like a hot deal. It really does, doesn't it You 567 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: Just it just feels so predatory. When you think about 568 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: people that might be watching a program at a certain 569 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: time on television, the elderly a lot of times, but 570 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: there may also be cases where human psychology is a 571 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: tricky thing. There may also be cases where people believe 572 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: this has worked for them. Yeah, people think, well, I 573 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: gave my last five dollars as seed prayer money, and 574 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: immediately afterwards I got that job or that inheritance, or 575 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: I've found the straps on my boots. Yeah, and it 576 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: turns out they work, you know, And it's it's also 577 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy though for you know, the more wealthy. 578 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: I would say, right, so if you're like tithing and 579 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: that's a big part of your life and you've you've 580 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: been doing it for a long time, you could argue 581 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: that accounts for your continued prosperity and success. Whereas I 582 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: think that I would be interested to see the offset 583 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: between donations by wealthy church members versus you know, more 584 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: lower class, middle to lower class members and how those 585 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: smaller donations add up and if they equal, if not exceed, 586 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: that of the very wealthy contributions, because I would say, 587 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: you know, the the hook is, I'm not doing so well. 588 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: I need to give what little money I have in 589 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: order to do better. So it's like you got to 590 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: spend money to make money, right, Yeah, that just checks out, 591 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: that's just business. Can I just just really quickly interject 592 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: a personal thing? Of course, going to church as a kid, 593 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: I would notice, you know, I wasn't really paying attention 594 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: to this, but I would notice that a couple of 595 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: times a year there would be a prosperity just a 596 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: sermon that was all based on prosperity, and it was 597 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: all about tithing. It was about why you have to 598 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: do it, why you should or yeah, why you should 599 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: do it, and why you kind of have to do it. 600 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: Fact of faith. I was Methodist, oh okay too, and 601 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: then became nondenominational, but it never changed. It never changed. 602 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: There was always this big push to make sure you 603 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: were giving X amount of your money to the church 604 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: at all times. It's like Pledge Drive week on NPR. 605 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: It's exactly like that, isn't it. Well, yeah, more ways 606 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: than one. Because a church depends upon its congregation absolute prisoners, 607 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: So you know, I think there's nothing wrong with having 608 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: to support that organization. I guess what I'm saying is 609 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: that it's so normalized for anyone who has been going 610 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: to any kind of church for any amount of time 611 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: that the jump to prosperity theology. I don't think is 612 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: that far. Oh, I see what you're saying, Okay, and 613 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying at the top of this section too. 614 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 1: It's like they're extreme examples, but this these concepts trickled 615 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: down into more accepted mainstream like what you're talking about. Like, 616 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: I think they were pushing that line every day. They 617 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: certainly wanted to remind you, give you a little kick 618 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: in the pants, Like the NPR Pledge Drive. You know that, Hey, 619 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: this stuff doesn't come for free. Yes, you know, help 620 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: us out. Yeah, I always feel sorry for the folks 621 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: on the NPR Pledge Drives. Toward the end, you could 622 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: tell they're really feeling it because people who don't write 623 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: into them all year right into them during the Pledge Drive, going, 624 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: I can't believe you're doing the Pledge Drive. This is 625 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: not what I had my radio on for. When I 626 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: used to work for public radio, I had to do 627 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: little spots like that for the Pledge Drive, and it's 628 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: very specific language. We always had to end them with 629 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: and thank you. Yeah, it kind of creepy, but like 630 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: we had like these very strategic meetings where like we 631 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: have the person that headed up the Pledge drive, like 632 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: helping shake the language for the whole thing, and like 633 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: to make it most effective and all this stuff. And 634 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: the thing they do now is they, hey, help us 635 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,879 Speaker 1: meet our goal early and we'll end the pledge drive. 636 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: We're holding the Good show's hostage. Yeah, sou So we 637 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: do see this occurring. And that's not the only criticism. 638 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: There's also a related criticism concerning tax exemptions. This is 639 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: a real hot button issue here in the US. Like 640 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: almost any other religious institution in the States, organizations touting 641 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: prosperity theology do not have to pay taxes. Wow. Yeah. 642 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,959 Speaker 1: One of my favorite criticisms of this was a couple 643 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: of years back in twenty fifteen, John Oliver on his 644 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: fantastic show Last Week Tonight formed the Church of Our 645 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: Lady a perpetual exemption, which was entirely stated only to 646 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: be a church to avoid paying taxes. Yeah, and it 647 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: actually made a ton of money. They were sent all 648 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: kinds of donations, including some including jars of semen. You 649 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: could just say, yeah, there was the sex sexual seeds 650 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: and then sex toys, jars of semen and cash. Yeah, 651 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: and heavily featured in that segment that you're talking about 652 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: was one of your favorite prosperity theologian lists. Yes, that 653 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: is correct, Kreflo Dollar here in Atlanta, Kreflo Dollar, prosperity 654 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: theologian who maintains that Kreflo Dollar is his real and 655 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: God given name. Absolutely. I just want you to know that, 656 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: he says that is his real name. Yeah, and he 657 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: needs those planes. You guys send in your money. He 658 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: needs those planes. So not to get too far into 659 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: my fascination with this person, but this is a person 660 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 1: who made the national headlines in the States when he 661 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: had a fundraising drive to buy a new private plane 662 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: for the purposes of spreading the gospel. Yeah, there was 663 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: a previously owned private plane. Their side of the story 664 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: is that it was unsafe and out of shape. So 665 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: they're going to buy a new one, right, And he 666 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: did something really in the in his speaking. Okay, he 667 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: doesn't ask people to donate. He asked them to believe 668 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: in God. So he says, you know, I need this 669 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: many people to believe in God for fifty one hundred 670 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: and fifty two hundred and fifty dollars, you know. And 671 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: then interesting, and then people who are opponents are therefore 672 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: telling this guy and his prishioners that they cannot believe 673 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: in God. They're telling me that I can't believe in God. 674 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,879 Speaker 1: For a house, for car, for a new job. Well, 675 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to believe even more. Now it's time for 676 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: double x amount of people to give ten thousand dollars, 677 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: right or something like that. So that's fascinating, and wow, 678 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: there are stories to the side, like they say that 679 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: the plane was unsafe to fly and that they needed 680 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: the plane right. Critics also believe that preachers and prosperity 681 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: theology movement are misusing church funds, squirreling donations way in 682 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: personal bank accounts, spending money for the church, u lavish 683 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: personal items, you know, rolls Royce's high end cars, luxury 684 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: living situations, and he talks about that. He like hypes 685 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: up his his exorbitant wealth and talks about how he 686 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: deserves it and barely shies away from the fact that 687 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: his followers are pained for it. Don't take my word 688 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: for it. Let's listen to a little sample of Creflo 689 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: dollar in action. Oh Robert's thirteen, verse twenty one, evil 690 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: pursueth sinners, but to the righteous good shall be repaid. 691 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: I'm telling you this year has been crowned with goodness, 692 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: and God Almighty has ordained and pre arranged for you 693 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: and I to live the good life. So I want 694 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: you to get ready. If you're not living a good life, 695 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: get ready, God says here he getting ready to repay 696 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: the righteous with some good it. And mister Dollar is 697 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,439 Speaker 1: not the only one. Let's go back to just one 698 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: of my favorite prosperity ministers. Do you have a favorite too? 699 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: He's absolutely my favorite. I grew up with him watching 700 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: television as a kid before school. As gentleman's name is 701 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: Robert Tilton. He started out in seventy four, well before 702 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,399 Speaker 1: I was born, but he grew his ministry into one 703 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: of the largest in the country by the nineties. And 704 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: guess what, he's got a website and still going strong today. 705 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: He has like a live webcast that he does. I 706 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: have vivid memories of this guy watching on TV. He 707 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: was fascinating. He would speak about all these modern day 708 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: miracles that could come true in your life. All you 709 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: had to do was have faith and donate. He would 710 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 1: also speak in tongues quite regularly, and he would call 711 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: out somebody like he would This was like on regular 712 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: TVs on television between stuff in the morning. Yeah, in 713 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: commercial time before the first commercial has come on at 714 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: like five or six or something like that. Am. Yeah, 715 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: where are you up at five am? My mom was 716 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 1: a teacher, so I was at I was at school 717 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: really early, but I was fascinated by this guy and 718 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: I would just I would just sit there and watch him, 719 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: and I'd be okay with it before the commercial came on, 720 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,879 Speaker 1: and I thought it was fun. But the biggest thing 721 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: he said, or at least I gathered from him and 722 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: then just reassured myself after looking it up now, is 723 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: that all your money problems originate with your sins, the 724 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: things that you're doing. But if you send donations to 725 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: his ministry, you're going to get those blessings back. I mean, 726 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: he said it just right out there. He wasn't, you know, 727 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: playing around with the idea or anything. He just said that. 728 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: And at the time, his ministry had this direct mailing arm, 729 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,800 Speaker 1: you might say, the biggest part of it that would 730 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: send you items that you're either supposed to touch your 731 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: in you interact with them in some way, and then 732 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: you send it back to the ministry. Yeah, right, yes, 733 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: you can you already see like what's going on here? 734 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: You send me a miracle prayer cloth, you pray with it, 735 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: you you interact with it. Then you send it back, 736 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 1: but you send it back with your faith, your donation, right, 737 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: and then you keep that going with people who watch 738 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: your show, and it's it's pretty crazy. There were prayer cloths, um, 739 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,280 Speaker 1: these little chords they would send you that you pray 740 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,479 Speaker 1: with again and then it gets put on some wall 741 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: of deliverance. Um. There was a hand tracing where if 742 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 1: you put your hand on it, a well, yeah, you 743 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: can make it into a turkey. But then you send 744 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: it back with your donation. And then Robert Tilton's gonna 745 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: put his hand where you put your hand, and you're 746 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: gonna think he had like somebody to do it for him. Well, 747 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: sign autographs. Let's let's let's get into that, because the 748 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: interaction was always on you, right, Robert Tilton wasn't sending 749 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: you a thing that he put his hand on essentially 750 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: or that way. That's a bad example. But you had 751 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: to send the thing back to them for the interaction 752 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: to occur, so you never saw it. You both had 753 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,839 Speaker 1: faith that your donation is going to do something for you, 754 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: and faith, right, I mean, it was fascinating to me. 755 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:16,839 Speaker 1: And ABC News did an investigation in nineteen ninety one, well, uh, 756 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 1: specifically looking at the direct mailing service, and they found 757 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: that that alone brought in his ministry in nineteen ninety 758 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: one eighty million dollars a year, and he wasn't doing 759 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: what he said he was doing. No did they find 760 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,319 Speaker 1: like a giant like pile of hand tracings. And they 761 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: looked at the dumpsters in the bank, because there were 762 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,879 Speaker 1: numerous banks that were used. And this is all, by 763 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: the way, I hope I can even talk about this. 764 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: It's from there were libel lawsuits that ended up getting 765 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: thrown out, and a bunch of appeals and much of 766 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: other stuff. But they found just tons and tons of 767 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: fan not fan mail, gosh, I'm sorry, that's the wrong word. 768 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: But these letters and the donation and the little objects, 769 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: the special water that they would send you, it was 770 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: just thrown away. What the donations were taken. The water 771 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 1: you had to buy them in the first place, probably, right, No, no, no. 772 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: They would send stuff to you as like a gift 773 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,879 Speaker 1: in a way that you would interact with and send back, 774 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: but it did it directly correlate with your level of giving, 775 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: like back to the NPR model where you get a 776 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 1: coffee cup at one level and then like a tote bag. Oh, 777 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure some of that existed. I didn't. I didn't 778 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 1: find much of that. We'll circle back. There's more to it, though, 779 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: we only have to go into If you're interested in 780 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,879 Speaker 1: this whole thing, you can look up Robert Tilton and 781 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: you may know who this person is. If you don't 782 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 1: recognize the name. If you were alive while the internet 783 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:50,400 Speaker 1: video phenomenon was beginning, you may remember something called Farting Preacher, 784 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: and this is the person who's featured in those videos. 785 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 1: They are highly they can be highly offensive, depending on 786 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,320 Speaker 1: what you believe. They are satirical and, in my opinion, 787 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: at least as a kid watching them or a younger 788 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 1: person watching them, the funniest thing I've ever seen. I 789 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: can attest personally as a thirty four year old man, 790 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,800 Speaker 1: having never seen this before in my life. When you 791 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: showed it to me earlier this morning, I was in stitches. 792 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's amazing, but you know, buy or beware. 793 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,400 Speaker 1: It could potentially ruffle your Vetash did did we mention 794 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,439 Speaker 1: the scripts that the phone operators were using. Oh yeah, 795 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: that was also in the dumpsters, and in particular with 796 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: those scripts, it said you're not allowed to be on 797 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: the phone. Oh no. They even had a service that 798 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,680 Speaker 1: would cut the phone off if the person in the 799 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: call center was talking for more than seven minutes because 800 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 1: the volume was of such a level that you couldn't 801 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,360 Speaker 1: stay on the line that longer. And they wouldn't accept 802 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,839 Speaker 1: anything any donation below one hundred dollars. So if you 803 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,680 Speaker 1: are calling because you are lonely and you need someone 804 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: to talk to, they will hang up. Well, they give 805 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: you seven minutes, and if you got one hundred dollars, 806 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, you might get on the good graces. So this, uh, 807 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: you can clearly see in this situation there was stuff 808 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: that Tilton didn't want you to know, which is that 809 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 1: they were not reading it. They were not even according 810 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: to their own internal logic, providing the considerations that they 811 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: said they would. Yeah, dude, there's so much more to 812 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: money wasn't going to these uh what he said. He 813 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 1: was supposed to have several orphanages in Haiti that apparently 814 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: didn't exist when ABC investigated, and a lot of the 815 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: money that was being donated was supposed to go there, 816 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,800 Speaker 1: but it didn't. And he had he had numerous mansions. Guys, 817 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: this guy had so many mansions in boats and cars 818 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: and uh, it's just really disturbing him. It makes me angry. 819 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: So he's not the only one though, he's not the 820 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: only fish in the shoal here, No, you still got 821 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: Here's just another one. I threw in here because I 822 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 1: think it's noteworthy. Maybe two younger people who might be listening. 823 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: If you've ever heard of something called super Deluxe, which 824 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: is a thing. It's a video I don't know, a network. 825 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: I guess it's kind of a video networking. They have 826 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: a YouTube channel as well, and there's a guy named 827 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: Vic Burger who is a producer and editor and he 828 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: makes he makes these Jim Baker videos specifically about Jim 829 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,839 Speaker 1: Baker's newest ministry. And he's been around for a long time. 830 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,280 Speaker 1: You remember, you might remember Tammy Faye Baker and Jim Baker. 831 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: They got into some legal issues. He ended up having 832 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 1: to go to jail for a while. Well he's back 833 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: and his most recent stuff is all based on preparing 834 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:50,720 Speaker 1: people for what's to come, for civilization, like the end times. Yeah, exactly, 835 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:52,840 Speaker 1: exactly let's hear one of those vic Burger clips. Just 836 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: to give you a sense. God gave us a new leader, 837 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 1: gave us a new president, and he says, if we 838 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: don't occupy, the enemy will come back in. And that's 839 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,360 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do. They're trying to kill. They're 840 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:13,800 Speaker 1: trying to get him out of office. Kill kill. Okay, 841 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: there we go. That's a that's a pretty good that's 842 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,879 Speaker 1: a pretty good sample. And people can find it on YouTube. Well, yeah, 843 00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,360 Speaker 1: it's a food though, right, yes, and you if you 844 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: go on the website, they will accept donations for the following. 845 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,280 Speaker 1: There's an expanded fuel List Generator package that costs only 846 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:34,279 Speaker 1: three thousand, five hundred dollars. There's also the like Noel said, 847 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: the buckets of food. It's called the Staying Alive Time 848 00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: of Trouble. You can get thirty two buckets of food 849 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: for fifteen hundred dollars. But my favorite and kind of 850 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 1: to see how this whole thing functions, is the Complete 851 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 1: Grocery Store Special for three thousand dollars. But it has 852 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: in the description of this item that the value of 853 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: the food you're getting is two thousand, one hundred and 854 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,920 Speaker 1: ninety dollars, but you're paying quite a bit more for that, 855 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,840 Speaker 1: So essentially you're donating to the ministry sure, and getting 856 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: something that you will probably use or at least it 857 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,600 Speaker 1: might use. Is that wrong then if they have the 858 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,920 Speaker 1: actual value of the stuff I was addressed, Yeah, exactly. 859 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: It actually made me feel a little better about it. 860 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,839 Speaker 1: But still, you know, he's making money on scaring you 861 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 1: into believing the you know, the end of the world 862 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: is on its way and somehow you're going to be 863 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,640 Speaker 1: able to be a prepperer for this and be okay, 864 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. It still rubs me the wrong way. 865 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:38,160 Speaker 1: And Vic Burger is hilarious in his videos, but it's 866 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's not quite as bad anymore. I totally agree. 867 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 1: I think the transparency and the pricing is interesting and 868 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: potentially makes it a little less egregious. But when you 869 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: look at these, they look like a you know, Billy 870 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 1: May's infomercial where they're totally like selling you a product 871 00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 1: like it is very much not framed as tie thing 872 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 1: to the church. It's very much like this is what 873 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: you need by this to prepare for the end of 874 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 1: the world, and you only can get it here, folks. 875 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,280 Speaker 1: So there's that. So again it's a matter of degree. 876 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: You know, it would be unfair to people of faith 877 00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,440 Speaker 1: at large to say that all of these practices or 878 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 1: these practitioners are inherently somehow wrong or morally bankrupt. Several 879 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 1: of them, I would argue, are and do have stuff 880 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know, but not all of them. 881 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: We have more examples that will return to after a 882 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: quick word from our sponsors. We have returned Noel. There 883 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,760 Speaker 1: was one particular example that you were talking about off 884 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,840 Speaker 1: air before we before stepped into the booth, the room, 885 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: so the compound, and yes, this all originated after I 886 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,440 Speaker 1: showed Noel the far preacher clip. He showed me a 887 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: clip of Justin Bieber hanging out at Hillsong. Is that 888 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,560 Speaker 1: what it was called? Yeah, Hillsong in La. It is 889 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 1: a megachurch that was founded in Sydney, New South Wales, 890 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,880 Speaker 1: Australia in nineteen eighty three by Brian and Bobby Houston, 891 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: and it has since expanded across five countries in Europe, 892 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 1: Asia and the Americas. And then it broadcasts online to 893 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: over one hundred and sixty nations, has more than one 894 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: hundred thousand worldwide attendees, and there are eighty affiliated churches, 895 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 1: and so it's it's you know, when you think of megachurches, 896 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,759 Speaker 1: you think about this like rock concert kind of atmosphere 897 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,759 Speaker 1: where rather than like a traditional church, these things take 898 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,440 Speaker 1: place in like arena type settings, thousands and thousands of people, 899 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:57,440 Speaker 1: high production value from the actual sermons to the music. 900 00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,200 Speaker 1: It's these like Cold Play style rock shows with like 901 00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,719 Speaker 1: lights and you know, LEDs and even pyrotechnics and all 902 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: kinds of bells and whistles. And this is one of 903 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:13,560 Speaker 1: the most successful kind of brands, this Hillsong thing, largely 904 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,759 Speaker 1: because of its association with many celebrities now, especially like 905 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,640 Speaker 1: the Biber thing. And there's another super deluxe video with 906 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,719 Speaker 1: Biber hanging out with two of the pastors, and there's 907 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 1: this part where he's like brushing his teeth while they're 908 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,720 Speaker 1: talking about stuff, and there's this whole like expand my borders, 909 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: Oh Lord section, which is great. I recommend just type 910 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: in Biber Hillsong. We're not going to bust that one 911 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 1: out here. But this is what I was talking about earlier, 912 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,400 Speaker 1: where it's like, I don't know if I would necessarily 913 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 1: peg these people as specifically being prosperity theologians or a 914 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,680 Speaker 1: prosperity religion. But it's a huge part of it because 915 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,200 Speaker 1: it's got this inherent flash and you know, it's glossy, 916 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,759 Speaker 1: high production value quality and this sense that you know 917 00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: of success that goes along with it with these celebrity 918 00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:05,160 Speaker 1: of philations. And they push very hard for tithing. They 919 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: are Pentecostal, and they are again that very strict interpretation 920 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 1: of the Bible which encourages tithing, and they equate that 921 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 1: to give ten percent of your income grossing. Yes, of course, 922 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,840 Speaker 1: yes to the church. And you know, you look at 923 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,960 Speaker 1: their site, there is a very robust page for you know, 924 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,600 Speaker 1: contributing to this organization. They have a music group like 925 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, like the Universal Music Group, like a record 926 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 1: label basically where they put out and make large sums 927 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,520 Speaker 1: of money. I would imagine on these Christian rock type bands. Dude, 928 00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: I used to listen to this stuff. Yeah, and I 929 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: lift your name on Hi to seeing here drums for that. 930 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:55,040 Speaker 1: I don't think, I mean, I don't think that's inherently wrong. Absolutely. 931 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm just because I was exposed to that. We've I 932 00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,800 Speaker 1: came from that youth group culture as well, and these 933 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: saws are forever embedded in my brain and I resent 934 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,000 Speaker 1: that a little bit before we get into the bed 935 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:07,280 Speaker 1: whatever you're about to hit and all. I just want 936 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,560 Speaker 1: to bring it up. But it is an interesting question 937 00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:14,360 Speaker 1: of when an organization gets this large, at what point 938 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 1: does it become just this money making machine when it's 939 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,360 Speaker 1: that huge, right, And you could say the same thing 940 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,560 Speaker 1: about any large church or the Vatican. Remember when we 941 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,800 Speaker 1: talk about the Vatican Bank and that just the money 942 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: that gets poured into there. Yeah. And the and the 943 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:33,320 Speaker 1: weird part comes from the tax exempt and aspect of it, 944 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,800 Speaker 1: where you know, this is lining the pockets of the 945 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,840 Speaker 1: founders and the high level officials in these organizations, and 946 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,440 Speaker 1: they're not paying any tax on it, you know, and 947 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,320 Speaker 1: they own massive amounts of real estate like in Australia alone. 948 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,720 Speaker 1: I mean, the value of the property that Hillsong owns 949 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,640 Speaker 1: is unprecedented. And they even I think we're trying to 950 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: enter into an agreement with the Government of Sydney to 951 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,320 Speaker 1: develop a huge area of the city and it ultimately 952 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 1: that didn't happen because like an independent council recommended against it. 953 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,880 Speaker 1: But we're talking big, big spending power here and the 954 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,880 Speaker 1: ability to really shape the politics of a particular area 955 00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,760 Speaker 1: where they hold sway. Oh sure, even beyond it, Yeah, absolutely. 956 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: And I don't want to get too even to this 957 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: because I don't think it's entirely relevant what we're talking about. 958 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,000 Speaker 1: But I think it's interesting. The father of the founder 959 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:32,360 Speaker 1: of Hillsong ran into some legal trouble involving an accusation 960 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,800 Speaker 1: of a molestation of one of the child in his 961 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,640 Speaker 1: congregation when he was a Pentecostal pastor. And I won't 962 00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,040 Speaker 1: get too a new here. It's really not particularly relevant, 963 00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,440 Speaker 1: except in the fact that there does seem to have 964 00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,960 Speaker 1: been some influence perhaps if you look at the details 965 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,480 Speaker 1: of the case that could have come from, you know, 966 00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,640 Speaker 1: whether or not it was in choosing to level the 967 00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 1: accusations or not. The mother of the child made some 968 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,360 Speaker 1: statements that indicated that she viewed these folks as royalty 969 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,200 Speaker 1: in this town, and there was a sense that we 970 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, they can do no wrong. So there's that 971 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,720 Speaker 1: psychological aspect, maybe not necessarily manipulating the legal system, but 972 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:15,680 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of power that comes with 973 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: being in these positions. In people's minds, you know that 974 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:24,720 Speaker 1: are following you. They ascribe certain almost superhuman notions, you know, 975 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: traits to the folks that are like in controlling these 976 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 1: kinds of huge organizations. Absolutely, and that's not just native 977 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:36,320 Speaker 1: to prosperity theology, but to like bring it back there, 978 01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,960 Speaker 1: I would argue then many times that problem is compounded 979 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:44,200 Speaker 1: in prosperity theology. One thing we would be remiss about 980 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,120 Speaker 1: that we've talked about. We've proved a tax exemption a 981 01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,640 Speaker 1: little bit, right, But there is a reason, and there's 982 01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,960 Speaker 1: a good reason that religious organizations in the US are 983 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:57,920 Speaker 1: exempt from paying taxes. It's the least worst answer to 984 01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:03,400 Speaker 1: a very big potential problem, which is that taxing religions 985 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 1: could lead to the loss of freedom of religion. Yeah, 986 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: so what happens if there's you know, if there's a 987 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,920 Speaker 1: group of people who have their own private faith and 988 01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 1: don't have the money to pay for the right to 989 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:18,880 Speaker 1: have a church. Money that would go or the right 990 01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 1: to practice the religion exactly, and money that would go 991 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,160 Speaker 1: to the government, right, which you know, might make it 992 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:30,400 Speaker 1: seem as though there's some connection, and ideally having that 993 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:35,320 Speaker 1: separation would keep the It's like the old Arabic proverb 994 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,800 Speaker 1: of like if the camel has his nose in the tents. 995 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 1: Soon the camel will be in the tent. You know, 996 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,320 Speaker 1: a slippery slope argument all about camels today. Yeah, I 997 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:44,760 Speaker 1: didn't mean to bring it back, but it is a 998 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,680 Speaker 1: real proverb. And then you obviously you have people that establish, 999 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,720 Speaker 1: you know, ministries with nothing but good intention. And there's 1000 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,200 Speaker 1: a lot of charity that that comes from ministries, and 1001 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, philanthropy and helping people in knee giving to 1002 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,520 Speaker 1: the poor. I mean, religion is a force of good 1003 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,760 Speaker 1: most of the time. I would argue at the base level, 1004 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:12,360 Speaker 1: at the base level, at its most pure, you know, core, 1005 01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,000 Speaker 1: be good, don't be a villainy. But I think that 1006 01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,800 Speaker 1: there are examples of folks like we're talking about here 1007 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,040 Speaker 1: that maybe look at that tax exemption status as like 1008 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,040 Speaker 1: a way to create an international money machine. So absolutely 1009 01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,919 Speaker 1: absolutely read about the rationalizations for buying a private jet 1010 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 1: in a world where one billion people die due to 1011 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,600 Speaker 1: lack of toilets. Yeah, you know what I mean, Like 1012 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,520 Speaker 1: in terms of priorities not having been sent as some 1013 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,160 Speaker 1: sort of divine messenger, It's pretty clear to me that 1014 01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,560 Speaker 1: there are other things to spend money on. And maybe true, 1015 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:50,640 Speaker 1: maybe people get caught in a bubble with the best 1016 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,720 Speaker 1: of intentions, you know, and the priorities can seem skewed. 1017 01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,280 Speaker 1: There is another double standard here, which is that sure 1018 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:04,360 Speaker 1: tax ex does exist for very good reason. However, Asnel 1019 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:08,840 Speaker 1: said earlier, it's completely clear that large groups of motivated 1020 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:13,080 Speaker 1: people in many religious organizations are being told how to 1021 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:19,120 Speaker 1: vote yes, perhaps without knowing an issue, perhaps without even 1022 01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:24,240 Speaker 1: reaching their own conclusion through a spiritual, self guided journey. 1023 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: They're being told that some greater reward, greater spiritual reward. 1024 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:35,840 Speaker 1: And remember death is can be really good forever, really 1025 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,840 Speaker 1: bad forever, and a lot of these belief systems and 1026 01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,520 Speaker 1: that depends on how you vote. That's a dangerous thing 1027 01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,400 Speaker 1: for a country. And that's a big voting block too. 1028 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the evangelical vote was very successfully 1029 01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,320 Speaker 1: rallied in this most recent presidential election, So there is 1030 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,000 Speaker 1: great power there. And when you start to ask yourself, 1031 01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,480 Speaker 1: where are these choices coming from, who is influencing these 1032 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: choices and to what end, that's a whole other can 1033 01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 1: of worms that we're not even going to dive into 1034 01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,760 Speaker 1: this episode, but that could be one for the future. 1035 01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:09,919 Speaker 1: I think we should. I think we should look at 1036 01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,560 Speaker 1: that influence because we know that it is global, right, 1037 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:18,400 Speaker 1: Church and state interactions occur in many, many countries. The 1038 01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,200 Speaker 1: roles of churches when there's mass civil unrest. Sure, yeah, 1039 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,080 Speaker 1: separation we're always talking about is a bit of window dressing, 1040 01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:30,120 Speaker 1: if you ask me. Often, yeah, often. And here, however, 1041 01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:34,160 Speaker 1: we draw to a close with our examination of the 1042 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,800 Speaker 1: ins and outs of prosperity theology despite their critics. And 1043 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,560 Speaker 1: there are many the proponents of prosperity theology, and there 1044 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,960 Speaker 1: are many seem set to continuing this work well into 1045 01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,400 Speaker 1: the twenty first century. There's an interesting thing. There are 1046 01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,320 Speaker 1: booms and busts with this sort of movement. So it 1047 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,560 Speaker 1: was very big in the fifties, right, and it was 1048 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:58,000 Speaker 1: very big in the eighties. So it may seem to 1049 01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,520 Speaker 1: decline or wax and wane over the decade. I think 1050 01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:06,000 Speaker 1: somebody gets some figure gets a little too big in 1051 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: the or too well known, then gets taken down, and 1052 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:11,520 Speaker 1: then it kind of happens in that way for a 1053 01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,840 Speaker 1: long time, it's not a big deal anymore, and then 1054 01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,280 Speaker 1: somebody else gets a little too big because if nobody's 1055 01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,040 Speaker 1: been talking about it. I think that's exactly what happens. Man. 1056 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,040 Speaker 1: And now what we're left with is a question how 1057 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,720 Speaker 1: much of the money sent to these organizations does go 1058 01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 1: to spread the good word, to maintain and grow a 1059 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,200 Speaker 1: church and religious organization, to support those in need, and 1060 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,640 Speaker 1: how much goes into hidden bank accounts, personal vehicles, clothing, trips, 1061 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:42,880 Speaker 1: housing to cover up crimes. Right, based on multiple interviews 1062 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:49,200 Speaker 1: from multiple journalists over multiple decades, that appears often to 1063 01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,920 Speaker 1: be the stuff they don't want you to know. All 1064 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,040 Speaker 1: right here where we've reached the time where we ask you, 1065 01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,480 Speaker 1: what do you think about all this stuff? You know, 1066 01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:02,160 Speaker 1: we spent some time researching it. We've you know, we've 1067 01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:06,000 Speaker 1: given you our thoughts. What do you think? Is this 1068 01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,000 Speaker 1: something that's positive in your neck of the woods. Is 1069 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 1: it something you've been a part of. Maybe you've got 1070 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:17,120 Speaker 1: an anecdote of something that came out of working with 1071 01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,480 Speaker 1: maybe Joel Austin. Maybe you work in the church. Maybe 1072 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,000 Speaker 1: you know maybe there's something we're missing here. Maybe you're 1073 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:28,040 Speaker 1: Joel Austin's personal page. Oh write to us. We're on 1074 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,280 Speaker 1: Twitter and we're on Facebook. You can find us. We're 1075 01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff on both of those. We are conspiracy Stuff 1076 01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:38,320 Speaker 1: show on Instagram. And that's the end of this classic episode. 1077 01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,240 Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, 1078 01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:44,680 Speaker 1: you can get into contact with us in a number 1079 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:46,720 Speaker 1: of different ways. One of the best is to give 1080 01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,320 Speaker 1: us a call. Our number is one eight three three 1081 01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:53,240 Speaker 1: stdwy TK. If you don't want to do that, you 1082 01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,760 Speaker 1: can send us a good old fashioned email. We are 1083 01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff if they don't want 1084 01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,600 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 1085 01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:07,560 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1086 01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:09,360 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.