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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People, did

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Speaker 1: Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder that things are real complicated

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Speaker 1: and sometimes there's a difference between moral action and strategic action,

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Speaker 1: and it's impossible to know. But what you can know

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Speaker 1: ahead of time is that my name is Margaret Kiljoy

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Speaker 1: and I'm the host. You can also know you probably

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Speaker 1: have guessed because you've probably listened to part one, unless

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Speaker 1: you're a very strange person. That My guest is Carl

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Speaker 1: Casardo from en Range TV. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great? Hello everybody, It's good to be back.

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Speaker 2: Hopefully Margaret, you're doing well. And I am personally extremely

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Speaker 2: excited to hear about Council Communism. Like I've been waiting

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Speaker 2: a while now I'm dying for that part. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know what happens to Vanderloubi, but like

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Speaker 2: I don't know about the Council Communism part. So that's

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Speaker 2: what's what I'm here for.

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Speaker 1: I know exactly. And our producer Sharen Sharan, how are you?

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Speaker 3: I am good? Thank you for having me. Also very

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Speaker 3: stoked to learn what that is. Council of Communism yep.

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Speaker 1: And our audio engineer is Daniel Hi. Daniel Hi Daniel, Hi,

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Speaker 1: I know or it's okay. Our theme musical was written

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Speaker 1: forced by un woman. My favorite thing in the world

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Speaker 1: is when listeners tell me that. They say it also

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Speaker 1: when they're like at work and shit, so cute.

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Speaker 3: I know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I'm really into it makes me happy.

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Speaker 2: So you're adding into the general positive zeitgeist and the

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Speaker 2: magnetic sphere. For Daniel right there, it was like boom,

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Speaker 2: it just happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just like a little bit of strangeness going

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Speaker 1: out into the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So today is the moment you've all been waiting for. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: there'll be fire and political intrigue. But first, niche left

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Speaker 1: his theory from one hundred years ago that has no

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Speaker 1: about relevance to modern leftism.

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Speaker 2: Hooray.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but it is relevant to this story. And I

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Speaker 1: actually think understanding the ins and outs of all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff that happened in the early twentieth century in

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Speaker 1: late nineteenth century has on me so much good at

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Speaker 1: giving me a vantage point to understand what's going on today.

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Speaker 1: The foolish thing to do would be to think that

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Speaker 1: the things that happen in the past are the same

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Speaker 1: as what's happening now. Right, But It has helped me

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Speaker 1: think about how people have like faced similar problems and

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Speaker 1: what they've come up with, and it just I find

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Speaker 1: it interesting. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I like that you said that because I sort of,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know and I understand that also not

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Speaker 2: exactly full quote of you know, those who don't understand

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Speaker 2: the past are doomed to repeat it. I don't really

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Speaker 2: buy that. No, but those who don't know the past

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Speaker 2: don't have depth and understanding of the human condition and

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Speaker 2: better comprehension of what things happening now mean totally.

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Speaker 1: You can kill someone with the dull sword, and you

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Speaker 1: can kill someone of the sharp sword, and it's easier

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Speaker 1: to do with the sharp sword. If I'm using the

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Speaker 1: Game of Thrones. The reason you read books is to

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Speaker 1: sharpen your intellect. You know, most importantly, understanding nitty gritty

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Speaker 1: stuff about ancient political ideology is cool and fun and

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Speaker 1: it has hip, and it will win you friends at parties.

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Speaker 1: It will win you exactly one friend at any given party,

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Speaker 1: the other random nerd who happens to be there. Everyone

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Speaker 1: else will leave you alone. They'll come over, they'll hear

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about, they'll leave. It's great. You get

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Speaker 1: to win at parties, you only have to talk to

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Speaker 1: one person at a time.

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Speaker 2: It's like the Church of the subject, you says, I

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Speaker 2: drink to make other people interesting. I learned these topics

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Speaker 2: to find the other interesting person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And so Marinus was a council communist.

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Speaker 1: There are not many council communists anymore. If there are,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening, I actually think you're onto something. It's great,

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Speaker 1: it's fine. I met a former one once and he

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Speaker 1: was in his probably seventies, maybe eighties, and he had

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Speaker 1: written a bunch of books about council communism in the

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Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, and then he became an anarchist. Council

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Speaker 1: communists are look forever ago, there was this split between

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Speaker 1: libertarian socialists like anarchists, and authoritarian socialists like Marxists. Back

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Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. The authoritarian side is, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Marxist side, the liberty inside, the more anarchist side.

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Speaker 1: This is not universally true. This is the broad strokes.

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Speaker 1: And every now and then, over the ensuing you have this,

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Speaker 1: you know, this tree that is split, and you have

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Speaker 1: two different branches, right, and every now and then people

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Speaker 1: from one branch will be like looking over at the

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Speaker 1: other branch and being like, damn, that's a nice branch.

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Speaker 1: They got like pretty good bark. Like I don't know

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Speaker 1: what branches see in each other, but like, whatever branches

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Speaker 1: see in each other, they're into about each other. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I'm tired of three hour meetings about what

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Speaker 2: colors we should make our font What if we just

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Speaker 2: get a dictator that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. And so the anarchist side, looking over towards

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Speaker 1: the Marxist side, you would get as an example, I

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Speaker 1: would say it would be the platformist anarchists who are like,

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Speaker 1: what if anarchism was way more unified and organized at

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Speaker 1: the expense of putonomy or whatever what. I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to talk shit on them, but they're cribbon notes from

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Speaker 1: the Marxists, right. And then in the other direction, I

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Speaker 1: know more examples of the other direction because our branch

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Speaker 1: is better whatever, because my p spective of where I'm at,

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Speaker 1: I see the other direction more if Marxist cribbing notes

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Speaker 1: from the anarchists. And among other groups that have done this,

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Speaker 1: there's like autonomous Marxists and various other groups are the

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Speaker 1: council communists. Because council communists. At its core was communists

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Speaker 1: who were like one if communism actually pushed for communism,

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Speaker 1: as we covered at length in the Russian Civil War episodes,

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Speaker 1: the Russian Communist Party aka the Bolsheviks, they had started

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Speaker 1: off being into the idea of these councils aka the

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Speaker 1: Soviets and the trade unions, and you know, some of

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Speaker 1: these people and some of these councils wanted to workers

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Speaker 1: to take power without creating a dictator, without taking that

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Speaker 1: power away from the workers and then centralizing it into

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Speaker 1: one place. Right, the Bolsheviks did the opposite. They centralized

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Speaker 1: power and the Soviets the councils were left with nothing.

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Speaker 1: So council communists spun off. At this point they looked

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Speaker 1: at what was happening in Russia and they were like,

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Speaker 1: what if the point was that power's supposed to stay

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Speaker 1: in the hands of the working class During the revolution,

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Speaker 1: I thought that was the whole thing. We were all

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Speaker 1: dying over. A ton of Marxists in Germany and the

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Speaker 1: Netherlands were into council communism in the nineteen twenties. I

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Speaker 1: talked about the some of the political landscape in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties in Germany and how the Nazis were originally

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Speaker 1: sort of minority party among the right and they gain

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Speaker 1: power and stuff right and council Communism comes out of

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Speaker 1: the German left overall. Again there's Dutch parts of it too,

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Speaker 1: but basically, the German Communist Party originally started off pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: It was interested in workers' power. It was not interested

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Speaker 1: in being told what to do by the Bolsheviks. They're

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Speaker 1: in a different country. But then in nineteen nineteen, the

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Speaker 1: Communist Party of Germany, the KDP, they managed to do

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Speaker 1: some political maneuvering against the will of the majority of

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Speaker 1: their own members in classic Bolsheviks style, and so they

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Speaker 1: made the party line of this group suddenly be now,

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Speaker 1: we do whatever Russia tells us to do, even though

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Speaker 1: most Communists didn't actually want to do this. So the

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Speaker 1: party split. And here's where you get into that, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I ever seen Life of Brian? Oh of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Trein you ever seen this movie Life of Brian? It's

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Speaker 1: okay if I have, I have no memory of bit.

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Speaker 1: But there's this part where like people are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're the Judea's Party of Liberation. We're like, no, we're

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Speaker 1: the where the I can't even do the bit. They're

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Speaker 1: all like arguing amongst each other themselves, and they have

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Speaker 1: basically the same name, and they're like arguing over fine

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Speaker 1: points and the getting really mad at each other, and

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Speaker 1: it's a fun joke. Well, the old Communist party was

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party of Germany. The new one that they

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Speaker 1: form is the Communist Workers Party of Germany.

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Speaker 2: Oh, this changes everything right there, that makes the difference.

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Speaker 2: That's the reformation that will make it succeed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So they go from the KDP to the KADP,

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Speaker 1: and they actually, I mean they're pretty cool. They set

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Speaker 1: up a workers union modeled after the Industrial Workers of

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Speaker 1: the World. Mark that off in your Bengo card, aka

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Speaker 1: union for leftists who are more concerned with giving power

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Speaker 1: to the working class than being obsessive about ideological labels.

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Speaker 1: So I the council Communists, they all right, like I

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Speaker 1: actually not not here talk shit on them. But they

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Speaker 1: still see themselves as part of communism, right. They don't

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Speaker 1: see themselves as part of anarchism or a new thing, right,

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Speaker 1: And so they they apply to join this group called

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Speaker 1: the Common Tern the Communist International, which used to be

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Speaker 1: back in the day. This like sort of horizontal group

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Speaker 1: of all these different socialists around Europe. Right these days,

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Speaker 1: well the days I'm talking about, it's just run by Russia.

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Speaker 1: So they're like, no, you can't fucking join. Fuck you

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Speaker 1: get the fuck out of here. You all want to

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Speaker 1: be independent. Fuck that, we don't want independence here, we're

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Speaker 1: fucking the Bolsheviks. So you call this This tendency also

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Speaker 1: gets called left wing communism, which I think is really funny.

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Speaker 1: Lenin wrote a pamphlet called left Wing Communism in Infantile

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Speaker 1: Disorder to make fun of them. Lenin got jokes, it

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Speaker 1: is funny to think about that.

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Speaker 2: How there's that means there's right wing communism. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's just ket such a like fractionalization upon fractionalization, a

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Speaker 2: pro fractionalization, and then a group trying to bring the

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Speaker 2: factions together, but then don't. It's an endless story of humanity,

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Speaker 2: regardless of any movement.

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Speaker 1: No I know, I know. This is why I live

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Speaker 1: alone on a mountain. Like, so this is how you

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Speaker 1: get council communists. At first, they tried saving the common

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Speaker 1: turn from authoritarianism. They're like, hey, what if we all

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Speaker 1: get to be worker's power? Like it says in the

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Speaker 1: name of communism, you know, and they were like pointing

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Speaker 1: out accurately that Russia was a capitalist state. This did

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Speaker 1: not work. They're like, fine, we're doing our own thing

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Speaker 1: and the five principles of council communism. Don't worry, we'll

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Speaker 1: get to fire soon. It's not one of their principles.

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Speaker 1: Five principles are capitalism is in decline and needs to

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Speaker 1: be abolished immediately. It should be replaced by workers control

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Speaker 1: over the economy through council democracy. The bourgeoisie manipulates the

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Speaker 1: working class with its social democratic ally in order to

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Speaker 1: maintain capitalism. This manipulation must be resisted by boycotting electoral

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Speaker 1: politics and fighting traditional labor unions. And finally, the Soviet

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Speaker 1: Union is not an alternative to capitalism, just a new

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Speaker 1: type of capitalism. So that's them. They did their thing

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Speaker 1: in Germany and the Netherlands alongside the other left communists

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Speaker 1: across the Western world, which was basically everyone who didn't

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Speaker 1: want to fucking toe the party line of Bolshevism. Council

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Speaker 1: communism was not particularly influential except in Germany and the Netherlands.

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Speaker 1: It's just like, you know, you read the Wikipedia, they'll

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Speaker 1: be like, wow, it's in all these countries and you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: but was there one hundred people in France And they're

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Speaker 1: like yeah, there's one hundred people in France and you're

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Speaker 1: like that's cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the one guy sending out postcards from Pueblo, Colorado

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Speaker 2: isn't a movement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, although I guess that's kind of a fucking

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Speaker 1: Nazi started.

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Speaker 2: Well, you don't know where it's going to go, but

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Speaker 2: it isn't the movement yet, right. It might be the

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Speaker 2: yet Sea Crystal or something like that, but it's not

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Speaker 2: in and of itself yet totally.

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Speaker 1: And so everyone of all sides could not wait to

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Speaker 1: throw the Council communists under the bus. So back to barness,

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Speaker 1: who's about to be under the bus of history?

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Speaker 2: Oh you know what that makes me think everyone wants

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Speaker 2: to throw them under the bus because no one likes

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Speaker 2: being called out on what is ultimately the hypocrisy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally.

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Speaker 2: Everybody hates that when he checks out. Yeah yeah, when

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Speaker 2: you're like, no, you're full of shit, everybody gets mad

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Speaker 2: at that, even if you're right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone's mad at them. Yeah, because it is that

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Speaker 1: it's that meme like everyone's mad at Jesus because he

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Speaker 1: was right, you know, yeah, like that's what's happening here.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's like, but the Bolsheviks are clearly bullshit, and everyone's like, no,

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Speaker 1: there are a guy. I mean, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: it's like to live in a place where people are like,

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Speaker 1: that's our guy, even though they're bad and wrong, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, what if that just isn't our guy anymore?

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Speaker 1: And they're like, how dare you split the party? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Thankfully that's nothing like what we have going on, so

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Speaker 2: we don't have to worry about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, it's just weird history. So Marnus is

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Speaker 1: in the Netherlands. He's getting in and out of jail,

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Speaker 1: and the word on the s and the Netherlands is

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Speaker 1: that there might be about to be a civil war

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Speaker 1: in Germany to stop Hitler from taking power. Right, this

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Speaker 1: is like January nineteen thirty three. Hitler's just I guess

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Speaker 1: this February nineteen thirty three. Hitler's just come to power.

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Speaker 1: And everyone's like, oh, we might stop this, right, we

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Speaker 1: might be able to have a civil war to stop this,

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Speaker 1: if only there had been, And he's like, well, don't

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Speaker 1: have a civil war without me, I'll throw cops through windows.

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Speaker 1: Not a problem. I'll walk all the way there. And

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Speaker 1: so he did. I think he hit checked again, but

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Speaker 1: actually it took him a couple of weeks to get there,

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Speaker 1: so maybe he did fucking walk. I don't know. He

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Speaker 1: gets to Berlin, it's like mid February nineteen thirty three,

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Speaker 1: and there's stormtroopers and shit now, and he's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: the Nazis are taking over. Should we do something about this?

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Speaker 1: And he is trying, like his first resort wasn't individual

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Speaker 1: action at night. His first resort was he went to

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Speaker 1: every meeting he could, including a group so he didn't

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Speaker 1: like all that much, like the communists and the social Democrats,

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Speaker 1: and he goes to every meeting and he's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: what if instead of letting the Nazis take over, we

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Speaker 1: stop the Nazis from taking over. I've got this wild idea.

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Speaker 1: You know. He's that other meme, the guy standing up

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Speaker 1: being like I have an idea, you know, the unpopular

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Speaker 1: idea guy. He's trying really hard. He's getting people to

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Speaker 1: talk about it on the streets. He keeps trying to

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Speaker 1: like just like organize everywhere he goes. He's like hey, like,

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Speaker 1: and he's going directly the workers. He's like, the parties

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Speaker 1: aren't stopping it, how do we stop it? You know?

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Speaker 1: And he's trying to incite riots. He does not successfully

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Speaker 1: incite them. Nothing is working. On February twenty third, he's

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Speaker 1: at a Communist Party meeting that is broken up by

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Speaker 1: cops and no one even fights back. He's like, wait,

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Speaker 1: what the fuck is happening. Then on February twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party headquarters is rated. I mentioned this earlier,

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Speaker 1: and the Communists are still just trying to play nice,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, we can't fucking nice while the Nazis

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Speaker 1: are taking over. That is not an acceptable thing for

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Speaker 1: us to do. He can't stand what's happening. He feels

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Speaker 1: like has something has to be done. He wanted it

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Speaker 1: to be a mass action through the proper channels of

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Speaker 1: workers organizations. He's going to even the Social Democrats. That's

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Speaker 1: not working. So he's like, all right, what about fire.

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Speaker 1: So on the night of February twenty fifth, this is

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Speaker 1: not the Reichstrog fire, it's two days earlier, he goes

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Speaker 1: on a sort of failed arson spree. He's trying to

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Speaker 1: burn down an unemployment office, a castle in the Imperial Palace.

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Speaker 1: He did this by just kind of walking around and

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Speaker 1: throwing burning tinder through mail slots. Right, that's why he's

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Speaker 1: hitting a bunch of places in one night. He's just

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Speaker 1: like walking all over town being like la la, la

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Speaker 1: la la. I'm Johnny fire Seed.

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Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, the Johnny apple Seed of Arson. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And none of those buildings burned down. But he's like,

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Speaker 1: maybe these actions will spark the working class out of

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Speaker 1: their lethargy. And he there's where I disagree with him.

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Speaker 1: I think this is a miscalculation, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: a miscalculation that he had because he's young and he's

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Speaker 1: from a different country. The communists and even the Social

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Speaker 1: Democrats have been fighting for a decade against fascism in

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Speaker 1: Germany and they've been steadily losing ground. In my estimation,

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Speaker 1: and I am not an expert, I don't think this

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Speaker 1: was lethargy. I think this was burnout. It was despair

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Speaker 1: and it was feeling defeated that I think people were

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Speaker 1: dealing with. So Marnus is like, well, if at first

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Speaker 1: you don't burn down an important building to spark a

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Speaker 1: working class revolt, burn burn again. On February twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: he does the thing that puts him into the history books,

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Speaker 1: just in a bad way. The specifics of this night

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Speaker 1: are argued about even still one hundred years later, well,

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Speaker 1: ninety years later, nearly never, Yeah, ninety nine years later, no,

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Speaker 1: eighty whatever, I can't do math.

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Speaker 2: I think it's ninety nine balloons, which is a different

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Speaker 2: reference entirely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bunch of balloons later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Overall, the popular media version of this story is that

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Speaker 1: the Nazis burned down the Reichstag to blame the Communists,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least tricked Marnus into doing it.

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Speaker 1: And then the rough consensus, maybe the majority rather than consensus,

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Speaker 1: but the rough majority or consensus of historians is that, no,

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Speaker 1: this was not a false flag attack. Marnus burned the

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Speaker 1: Reichstag on his own volition. I'm not going to tell

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Speaker 1: you that's definitely what happened. That's what I think happened.

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Speaker 1: I feel fairly certain about that, and I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: why I think it. At around nine pm on February

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Speaker 1: twenty seventh, nineteen thirty three, Marnus broke into the Reichstag.

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Speaker 1: Basically he was thinking. He was like, all right, this

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Speaker 1: didn't work last time because I didn't go all in. Literally,

331
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Speaker 1: He's like, I got to go inside these buildings to

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Speaker 1: set them on fire. Right, He goes in to try

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Speaker 1: and make sure the place burns. As soon as he

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Speaker 1: breaks in. People see him break in. It's nine it's

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Speaker 1: not When I first read that this happened at nine pm,

336
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Speaker 1: I was like, do Germans just go to bed really early?

337
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Speaker 1: Like what's happening, you know? And then I realized I

338
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,199
Speaker 1: read a different source and I learned more details, and

339
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Speaker 1: I was like, no, they saw him do it. He

340
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,919
Speaker 1: broke in, and he was like, shit, the firefighters are

341
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Speaker 1: already coming, the cops are already coming. I better fucking

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Speaker 1: burn this place. And so he's running around inside trying

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Speaker 1: to set shit on fire. And all he has is

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Speaker 1: this like coal lighter, and I think that means it

345
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Speaker 1: is a lighter for lighting coal, and not a lighter

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Speaker 1: that works off of coal. But I could not tell

347
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Speaker 1: you because I spent a while trying to learn and

348
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Speaker 1: I couldn't figure it out. And he goes around. The

349
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Speaker 1: kindling he brought isn't catching anything. He starts setting towels

350
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Speaker 1: on fire. He takes off his own shirt and sets

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Speaker 1: it on fire to try and start this fire, while

352
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,200
Speaker 1: the fire department is like outside using his coal and

353
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Speaker 1: alzunder his coal fire lighter. He also sets the curtains

354
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Speaker 1: on fire. This fire was started in multiple places, and

355
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Speaker 1: this is where a lot of the conspiracy stuff comes from.

356
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Speaker 1: Either he moved around quickly, which seems the most likely

357
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Speaker 1: thing and the thing that most historians tend to believe

358
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Speaker 1: that the curtains that he eventually lit like took a

359
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Speaker 1: little while and he's like running around from curtain to

360
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,119
Speaker 1: curtain and setting them on fire around the building. Or

361
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Speaker 1: I think this is also perfectly likely. He had accomplices

362
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,400
Speaker 1: and he shut the fuck up and he never mentioned them,

363
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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it could be either he goes over

365
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 2: and lights the curtain and it just slowly starts a

366
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Speaker 2: smolder till it goes up it hits that combustion point yep.

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Speaker 2: Or yeah, but I mean, considering this guy's strength and

368
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Speaker 2: bravado in the past that we've learned about him, him

369
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Speaker 2: not breaking and talking about others is also very very

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Speaker 2: understandable and very believable. Yeah, Well, what's weird is why

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Speaker 2: didn't they bring any accelerant? I think they bring like

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Speaker 2: lighter fluid or something.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know. I think yeah, and actually that

374
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Speaker 1: almost even works. Stwories that like it was just right.

375
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Speaker 1: It's because like it's right, and he clearly wasn't like

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Speaker 1: the most thought out action that's ever happened, right, Yeah.

377
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Speaker 2: It almost sounds like a whim like I'm doing it now,

378
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 2: like if you were, because if you're planning.

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Speaker 1: This, ZEPM, let's go yeah kind of.

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Speaker 2: Because I mean, wouldn't you bring like a can of

381
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Speaker 2: zippo or something like whatever the equivalent was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I don't know.

383
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you might think it's way easier to catch things

384
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Speaker 3: on fire if he was just like putting kindling in

385
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 3: little mail slots, like yeah, maybe he has a different

386
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 3: impression of how fire works.

387
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. He's just running around with a flint striker,

388
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 1: being like why is that working? It's like a stone palate.

389
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Speaker 2: With the string and he's like spinning it in the

390
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Speaker 2: right stock. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The cops are outside because he's like he's burning his

392
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Speaker 1: own shirt, right, Like he's willing to burn the shirt

393
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Speaker 1: off his back.

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Speaker 2: That's what I mean. It sounds like it was almost

395
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Speaker 2: a whim like I'm just doing it, Like maybe he

396
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,399
Speaker 2: just got the moment or got the I don't know,

397
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 2: but it's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And then there's the least likely thing, which

399
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 1: is that Nazis spies knew he was going to be

400
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 1: starting this fire, so they also positioned themselves to also

401
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 1: start fires at the same time as him, which is

402
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 1: what some people expect you to believe. The mighty Parliament

403
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 1: building of Germany went up in flames. Martis was apprehended

404
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,159
Speaker 1: on the scene. I have read both outside on the

405
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 1: street and inside the building. He has the lighter on him,

406
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Speaker 1: He's scantily clad because he's been burning his clothes. He

407
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,159
Speaker 1: is sweaty and panting. And the most damning part is

408
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 1: that he confessed immediately. He also immediately said that he'd

409
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 1: done it alone and that he had no associations with

410
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Speaker 1: the Communist Party, and that he had destroyed the Reichschag

411
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 1: to protest against quote a political institution which was being

412
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Speaker 1: used as an instrument to submit the workers to the

413
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 1: yoke of a fascist dictatorship. But you know what isn't

414
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 1: being used to yoke the workers to a fascist dictatorship.

415
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Speaker 1: Approximately thirty percent of our advertisers, because nice, you get

416
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Speaker 1: the idea of mixed feelings. Whatever, here's ads and we're back.

417
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: So what absolutely is true about this action is that

418
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 1: the Nazis are ready to take advantage of it. It

419
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 1: seems somewhat obvious that they didn't plan it. They were

420
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: just prepared for it as a probability. After all, they

421
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 1: had a piece of legislation that had been written by

422
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 1: their far right predecessors, as this is the piece of

423
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: legislation to pass if the left is any kind of

424
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 1: massive direct action. So once someone on the left did

425
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 1: a massive direct action, they put it into place the

426
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,360
Speaker 1: thing that had been written a year ago within hours present.

427
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 1: Hindenberg blows up, No, that's still the zeppelin I tried

428
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: to write. Okay, I'm going to go completely off script

429
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: and tell you I'm going to call this a fable

430
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: because I learned this ten years ago and I have

431
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: not fact check it since.

432
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: Beautiful.

433
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard about how Nazis ruined airship travel?

434
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: I have not. I don't know if this is a

435
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: joke or not, but I wish those things still existed now.

436
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: The idea of sitting in a zeppelin going over the ocean.

437
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 2: Sounds really cool, and I'm not a steampunk so it

438
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 2: just sounds neat. I know.

439
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: It's like way Greener I used to be a steam bunk,

440
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: so he used to write about airship travel and how

441
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 1: Nazis ruined it. Because again I'm running off ten year

442
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: old notes here, so treat this as a fable, even

443
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: though I believe it to be true. The head of

444
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: like airship travel in Weymar, Germany was someone who cared

445
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: about I think he was a centrist, but I'm not sure.

446
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 1: He wasn't like a radical, and he wasn't a Nazi,

447
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: was anti Nazi, and he cared about safety. And so

448
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: the Nazis got rid of him, and then they put

449
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: in place this like total yes man who just did

450
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: whatever the fucking Nazis said, cut back on costs. Again,

451
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: no comparison to what's happening now where corporations come in

452
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: and like start changing the way that airline safety works.

453
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: That obviously would never happen and no whistleblowers will get

454
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: shot whatever anyway, So the Nazis are like, wait, did they.

455
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 2: Take a submarine to the Titanic? I'm lost? Was that

456
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: what happened? Oh?

457
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 1: No saying how the bow? Oh right, no, okay, So

458
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: the Nazi fucking started cheaping out on airship safety and

459
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 1: the Hindenburg was like, actually reasonably safe. I know there's

460
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 1: the whole like hydrogen versus helium argument blah blah blah

461
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: blah blah, but I'm not gonna get into that. And

462
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: then the Hindenburg went down and the entire world looked

463
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: at it and was like, oh shit, airships are scary.

464
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: They burn again, old information here. I mean it was

465
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: like a little less than one hundred people in the Hindenburg,

466
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: and like, I think a third of them died, and

467
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: like that's a lot. I don't want to be in

468
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: a I don't want to be in a space where

469
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: a third of people die. Right, I will take a

470
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: falling airship that is on fire, or I have a

471
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: two thirds chance of safety over a fucking airplane crashing. Yeah,

472
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: any day.

473
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 3: That's what I was thinking, Like one crash, then no

474
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 3: more forever.

475
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's more or less what happened. Again, based on

476
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: information that I thought I was going to put into

477
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: the script and then realize my script is already long enough.

478
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And from a capitalist perspective, they're not cost efficient.

479
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: You can't jam as much crap and people onto them

480
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: and sell those tickets for overpriced amounts. Right, So that's

481
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 2: another problem too.

482
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: But it can be so green compared to airplane travel.

483
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, yeah. They just kind of float along with

484
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: very little propulsion required.

485
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, I think I would be terrified to be

486
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: on one. I'm gonna be real.

487
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 3: Why how's it.

488
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: Different even if it was packed with helium? I mean,

489
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: it seems like that seems pretty cool.

490
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: I mean the same reason I don't want to take

491
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: a boat across the ocean, just like storms and shit.

492
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I bet if I like

493
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: did it, I'd become fine with it, you know.

494
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: The idea if it's a little bit overwhelming.

495
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not like man heights rule, you know, I'm

496
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: more of a like Right, I can accept this.

497
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: And it's really funny too when you think about Boy

498
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 2: this is off script, but like World War One, some

499
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: of the Zeppelins were used for bombing raids and such,

500
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: and those things were notoriously hard to shoot down.

501
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: Oh really, Allied pilots like.

502
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: Oh, they were incredibly difficult, And.

503
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 3: So I would think it was the opposite for some

504
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: reason right.

505
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: Alley pilots were die bombing on them and dropping bombs

506
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 2: and stuff because these things were considered like the dreadnoughts

507
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: of the sky. They were very hard to shoot down.

508
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: So to go from this World War One militarized version

509
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: to this theoretically civilian version that just blows up because

510
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: someone like struck a match or whatever. That happened to

511
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: the Hindenburg is like an example of where it could

512
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: have been and where it went right.

513
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, Carl quote unquote not a steampunk casarta. We

514
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: call you behind your back.

515
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: As I rant about how cool zeppelins are.

516
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: I know, but they are okay, you know, there's a

517
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: couple things that they were right about.

518
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: And you know what, cog wheels are cool too.

519
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but they yeah, not as design, not

520
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: as design. That's where it all went downhill. So anyway,

521
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: my dog is like, would you please shut up about this?

522
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: He will just have to deal with it. So within

523
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: hours of this fire, President Hindenberg invoked that Article forty

524
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: eight that I'm in charge no matter what, even though

525
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: we pretend we have a democracy thing, and the cabinet

526
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: enacted the decree of the right President for the protection

527
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: of the people in the state. Hitler said, quote, if

528
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: this fire, as I believe, is the work of communists,

529
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: then we must crush out this murderous pest with an

530
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: eye iron fist, which is like not very nice of

531
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: a way to phrase things. I'm starting to think this

532
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: Hitler guy is no good. And it's so interesting, right

533
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: because the Nazi claim is that this fire was going

534
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: to be a signal for a larger uprising. It wasn't.

535
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: It should have been, but it wasn't.

536
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: This again, thinking about like history and understanding the past

537
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: and now or then and even now, like when John

538
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: Brown instigated his raid against Harper's ferry, as we said

539
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: in an episode you said an episode one of this

540
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: you know, the South said this is just the beginning

541
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: of many abolitionists that are going to do this very thing,

542
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: and that's why we must do something about it. And

543
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: that didn't actually appear to be true. Like John Brown

544
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: had funding and had allies and had he had a

545
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: little army, right, but there wasn't like this upswing of

546
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: like massive amounts of abolitionist white abolitionist violence that was

547
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: John Brown was a bit anomaloist in that regard, like

548
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: and so here you see after the Reichstag fire, the

549
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: same exact thing. This is just the beginning of many

550
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: communist uprisings that are going to strike across all of

551
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: Greater Germany. Yeah, that same tool of fear. First of all,

552
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: knowing that you're doing wrong, right, you were an authoritarian

553
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: piece of shit as the planter class was, and knowing

554
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: you're doing wrong and the fear of people calling you

555
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: on it through direct action is a powerful tool for

556
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 2: more authoritarianism.

557
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And so with this law that they passed, there's

558
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: no freedom of speech, no freedom assembly, no privacy, no

559
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: freedom of press. They legalized phone tapping and stealing mail.

560
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: There's also no autonomy of states. Any state government can

561
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: be removed. No warrants are necessary to search houses, and

562
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: they expand the death penalty to include arson. Around four

563
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: thousand people were rounded up immediately without warrants, and I

564
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: don't know the fate of all of them. I know

565
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: the fate of one of the anarchists I read about

566
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: who died in a concentration camp a year later. And

567
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: they rounded up four thousand communist, social democrats and anarchists.

568
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: This was, as near as I can tell, the day

569
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: that ended a ground militant organizing in Germany. Survivors fled

570
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: the country or went underground. After this, All of this

571
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: happened a week before the new parliament whatever elections for government,

572
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: and these elections still happened, which is kind of impressive

573
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: that despite these roundups, the Communists won eighty one seats

574
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: out of six hundred total. Despite arresting all the competition,

575
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: the Nazis still didn't win a majority. Well, they still

576
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: had a plurality, right. The Nazis didn't need a majority though,

577
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: because what they did is now they had a list

578
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: of eighty one new people to arrest, and they arrested

579
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: all of the Social Democrat and Communist ministers and therefore

580
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: were able to control everything. And the way that they

581
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: were able to control everything is that there's a center party,

582
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: the Catholic Center Party, and overall the Catholics don't like

583
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: Hitler and Nazis, and some of them do really brave things, right,

584
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: but they're a centrist party, and so the Nazis are like, well,

585
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: all right, we won't ban Catholicism if you just let

586
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: us take power. And the Catholics are like, okay, and

587
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: let them take power. So not the strongest moment from

588
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: the Centrists.

589
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but never underestimate the power of the concept of

590
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: the perception of self preservation, right, like, yeah, totally, so

591
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: often that carrots is dangled. Yeah, but it's almost always

592
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: a lie. It's only self preserved mostly usually self preservation

593
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: only for a little while. Right.

594
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's so funny that we keep falling into that trap,

595
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: even though there's that fucking famous poem you know, or

596
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: famous speech it gets turned into a poem. But on

597
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: March twenty third, nineteen thirty three, they passed the Enabling Act.

598
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: The basically, the Nazis and the Catholics pass the Enabling

599
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: Act to give Hitler absolute power, making Parliament meaningless. They're like, uh,

600
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: we vote ourselves to suck. Did not matter. Then, when

601
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: President Hindenberg died of natural causes, he was eighty seven

602
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: in August nineteen thirty four. He actually, right before this,

603
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: he was like, before Hindenburg died, he was like, y'all

604
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: should fucking you suck? Fuck you, you're being a little

605
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: bit too much. I'm gonna I'm thinking about doing stuff

606
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: to you. And in response, they had the Night of

607
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: Long Knives. This actually gets a little bit beyond what

608
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: I totally understand because I didn't put it in my script.

609
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: But he dies, he's eighty seven. Hitler announces that the

610
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: president and chancellor roles are being combined and he becomes

611
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: the Fure, and he's like, you know, I want this

612
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: to be like legal. So on August nineteenth, nineteen thirty four,

613
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: there's a plebisite basically, when you like get the entire

614
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: country to vote on an issue to see how people

615
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: feel about it, to see if they approved of the

616
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: merging of the two officers and having Hitler be the Fure.

617
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: Ninety six percent of the population turned out to vote,

618
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: and ninety percent of the people voted yes. Well, this

619
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: was the least fair. This was not a fair election.

620
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: He probably would have won to be real, right, there

621
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: are stormtroopers stationed at all the pole stations. Some ballots

622
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: were pre marked, yes, spoiled ballots were just marked into

623
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: the yes category. More people voted than there were people

624
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: to vote in some places.

625
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: Surryan, So you can I just have a quick TANGI

626
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 3: really quick. My grandma I'm Syrian, and my grandma was

627
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: a teacher in Syria, and teachers in Syria are civil workers,

628
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: and so when hafs I said Basher's dad was elected

629
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: in quotes, they had an election and the civil servants

630
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: were counting the votes, and she said that she was

631
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 3: told to drop the no in the trash and put

632
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 3: yes in the yes pile, and so democracy, Yeah, that's

633
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: that sounds like the fair good election.

634
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but ninety six percent of there's no such

635
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: thing as ninety six percent voter turnout. And getting a

636
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: situation would ninety percent of people agree on anything is

637
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: a human impossibility.

638
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe ninety percent of people with a gun literally

639
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: their head will say yes, yeah, oh yeah.

640
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: But like in terms of like a legitimate there's there's

641
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: no way. There's just that doesn't exist. That is outside

642
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: of the realm of human physics.

643
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: And like I'm impressed Hamburg voted twenty percent no and

644
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: Berlin voted like eighteen or sixteen percent no or something,

645
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: which means that a much higher percentage of people did

646
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: vote no. Right, And it is one of these things

647
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: where it's like you think the liberals won't act where

648
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: I'm ready to vote tomorrow if I could, you know,

649
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: like it's not as clearly not enough voting no in

650
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: this blood site did not stop Hitler.

651
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: If anything, I would think that they would target the

652
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: people that said noo, like they did with the people

653
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: that were elected.

654
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

655
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: No, it actually seemed like there is actually some bravery

656
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: in going out of voting now in this Bloo site,

657
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: because like you just watched them murder a whole bunch

658
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: of people and their stormtroopers around, and like, no one

659
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: knows quite how bad it's about to get, but they

660
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: can suspect, you know, they've had a long time to

661
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: see what. Hitler was pretty upfront about his plans, you know, but.

662
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: He was hitlering from the beginning. He made it into

663
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: a verb earlier, and I thought that was funny.

664
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it was probably very hard at

665
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: that time, to be honest, like coming out of the

666
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: violin our Republic, which was this really like libertine progressive space,

667
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: like one of the most interesting bohemian times we've seen

668
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: in human history. To go from that to full on

669
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: conservative dictatorship authoritarianism is a hard thing to comprehend, Like,

670
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: how did my country that was, you know, this free

671
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: place where going to all sorts of bars and drag

672
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: shows and all these things that were going on in

673
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: Bohemian Weimar suddenly become this. It's hard to perceive if

674
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: you were living through that, it would be hard. Unerstaid

675
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: that it can't happen here, that's impossible, Like I bet

676
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: that was. There was a lot of that going on

677
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: for a while.

678
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. So

679
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: that's how Hitler came to power. But this isn't really

680
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: an episot about how Hitler got to power. I just

681
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: had to explain it because I had to explain the

682
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: reichstrog So what matter guy Marnus, and why does history

683
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: seem as a Nazi agent? And why at the very

684
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: beginning did I say that I'm going to blame homophobia communists, Well,

685
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: because the Communists of the reason that everyone thinks is

686
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: a Nazi agent. Because as soon as the fire was set,

687
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: the Communists and the social democrats, rather than blaming the

688
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: Nazis for taking power and being like, hey, it's probably

689
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: good that people are fighting that we're bending over backwards

690
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: to see you could throw Marnus under the bus the fastest.

691
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 3: To kind of separate themselves from him.

692
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was a little less like, don't worry,

693
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: Nazis were nice, were your friends? It was a little

694
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: bit that, right, and it was also just a like

695
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: wactual thing. It was a lot of bit that even

696
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: though they were like still anti Nazi, right. A group

697
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: of communists in Paris collectively wrote a book in nineteen

698
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: thirty three. So there's like, he gets arrested right away, right,

699
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: he's arrested on the scene, and they have this like

700
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: other thing where a bunch of like lefties have this

701
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: like other trial for him in a different country where

702
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: they're like, let's find out what really happened. But it's

703
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: not they're not finding out what really happened. They released

704
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: this book nineteen thirty three at the end of the

705
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: year while the trial's going on, or maybe a little

706
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: before the trial goes on. It's called The Brown Book

707
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: of the Reichstrog Fire and Hitler Terror. And this book

708
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: is a best seller in twenty four languages and is

709
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: the reason that people to this day believe that the

710
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: Reichstrog Fire was a false flag attack. The core of

711
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: their argument about why Marnus was a Nazi agent is

712
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: that they say Marnus was gay, and in fact, all

713
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: the Nazis bunch of gays. The Nazis are nothing but

714
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: a bunch of decadent homosexual criminals.

715
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: That was part of their argument.

716
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: That's like the whole of that's their main argument. Wow,

717
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: that's bold. We don't know whether or not Marnus was gay.

718
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: It seems possible. There is the around this time, you

719
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: get the report that I've covered on this show. I

720
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: can't remember the name of it, in like nineteen thirty

721
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: something like, there was a report of study of human

722
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: history sexuality that found out that about thirty percent of

723
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: maybe like thirty or forty percent of men have had

724
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: homosexual experiences. And then you know, so like maw might

725
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: have been. We do know he was in love with

726
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: a woman once. That doesn't mean much. We also know

727
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: that he was a broke, traveling vagabond, and sex work

728
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: seems like a way he absolutely could have made money

729
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: as well as anything else. I would want him to

730
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: be gay. Being gay as cool as hell. Yeah, many

731
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: of our advertiser it's not June anymore. No, no advertisers

732
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: are pretending to be gay anymore.

733
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: But you know what, no, this is, this is July.

734
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: So now they're about disability.

735
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: Oh okay, well he's he's blind. Oh so he's blind.

736
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: There you go. So they support him because of his disabilities.

737
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: He's his disability and he's blind. So there is that's

738
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: that's what the ad should be.

739
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, I actually do think that, like,

740
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: these months are not bad. What's bad is the cynicism

741
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: with which capitalist Oh.

742
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: No, no, I hope that wasn't interpreted that way. No,

743
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: it's no.

744
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: I think we all know that.

745
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: I think I think our listeners would know.

746
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the corporate ucer pation of it, right, It's

747
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: that it's that good guy badge nonsense that they put

748
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: on their commercials for one month only in this country

749
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 2: while they're doing something horrible in Saudi Arabia. Yeah.

750
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 3: No, it's that classic beam of like a warship or

751
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 3: something dropping bombs and it's like Republican Democrat and then

752
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: it's like there's a pride flag on the Democrat.

753
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all it really means, exactly.

754
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah.

755
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 3: I think your listeners are smart enough to know that

756
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 3: we don't mean it in any bad way.

757
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: But I hope they're smart enough to know that we

758
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: believe with all of our hearts that these goods and

759
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: services are absolutely good and we're back. So the core

760
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: argument in this book is rooted in homophobia and not fact.

761
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: They basically made up an elaborate fairy tale, Hey, fairy tale, sorry,

762
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: that a bunch of gay stormtroopers set the fire and

763
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: Marnus's pimp had made him take the fall for it,

764
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: which he was willing to do because gay men are

765
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: pitiful and desperate for affection. He was de sperate for

766
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: the affection of these gay Nazi stormtroopers, and also that

767
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: they would out him as a homosexual if he didn't

768
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: take the fall, And like, look, it's probably a crime

769
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: to be homosexual. I'm willing to bet it's more of

770
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: a crime to set the Reichstag on fire.

771
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: But also like he probably wouldn't give a shit just

772
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 3: based on his history.

773
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, No, this is all made up.

774
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: It's complete, I know, I know.

775
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 3: I mean, like that argument is just so thin and flimsy,

776
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: so stupid, Like he threw a cop out a window.

777
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 3: We think he fucking cares if you call him gay

778
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: in public?

779
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: Come on, yeah, you know right, he'll either agree or

780
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: throw you out a window, right, Like so.

781
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 2: I just want to know. It was this brown book

782
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: published by Time Life. It was like the little thing

783
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 2: you put on your on your coffee table. The time

784
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: life series of Communists, fire and Arson.

785
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 1: I you know, I actually it's funny because the response

786
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: book that they later write a different people defending him

787
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: right is called the Red Book, and so it's like

788
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: there's like something going on with how they name these

789
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: things that I just like don't totally get, but there's

790
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: nothing that holds up in this book. During the months

791
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: when Marnus was supposedly plotting with gay Nazis to do

792
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: gay Nazi crimes, he was in Dutch prison for breaking

793
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: the windows of that agency that wouldn't fund his library

794
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: for the unemployed. They also claimed that he'd been kicked

795
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: out of the Communist Party for being suspected of being

796
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: a police informant Comrade after Comrade came forward to just

797
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: be like, that's not true. No one has ever thought that.

798
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: Say what you want about this man, and I'm gonna

799
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: mostly say positive things except some of the strategic decisions.

800
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: He was committed to socialism with the core of his soul,

801
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 1: Like this is like one of the most evil hatchet

802
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 1: jobs in history. Should Marness have started that fire? Probably

803
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: not in retrospect. Is it morally justifiable. Absolutely, it's morally justifiable.

804
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: They're the Nazis, Like we should set their things on fire.

805
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: They're the Nazis.

806
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: Like, right, but it doesn't mean it all right, I agreed,

807
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: But it also doesn't mean it's tactically sound, right, that's

808
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: the mistake totally.

809
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he was on the right track when he

810
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: was trying to spur mass action. You know. Yes, I

811
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: know people who've gone to jail because they have felt

812
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: that their attempts to integrate with a larger social movement,

813
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: to participate in things have not gone well. And then

814
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: they've been like, well what do I do? And they've

815
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: been like, well maybe I should torch some cop cars

816
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, and then gone to prison and like,

817
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just a pattern. I see.

818
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 2: Well, I mean he tried to motivate an entire group

819
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: of people that he thought were going to actually have

820
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: the backbone to do something, and when they don't, he's

821
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: left with this, considering his life's experiences, I could I

822
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: could see in his mind he's left with this, like, well,

823
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 2: someone has to do something, and I guess that's me yep, right,

824
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 2: And that's what happens.

825
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And sometimes you're John Brown and sometimes you're Marnus.

826
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: You know, although John Brown wasn't alone, as we said, right,

827
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: he was funded and backed, so he wasn't totally isolated.

828
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, Actually that's actually a very good point. And

829
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: like and Marnus had a like it was part of

830
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: a movement, but was kind of acting outside that move

831
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: meant even more than John Brown was. That's a very

832
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: good point. Now, the Nazis would have one hundred percent

833
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: consolidated their power regardless. I'm going to talk about that

834
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: a little bit more later. This was the excuse that

835
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: they happened to use. I personally do not think history

836
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: would look fundamentally different if Marnus had stayed home that night.

837
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: I think we're talking about the difference of a week

838
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 1: or two. In fact, the Nazis had talked about kind

839
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: of waiting until after that next election before they started

840
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: arresting everyone, because then they know who to arrest.

841
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: You know, I guess you could say what he did

842
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: was he turned out to be an accelerationist for what

843
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: was an inevitable reality. And if you know, if there

844
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: wasn't an arson fire, they would have picked and chosen something,

845
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: or they would have just created something out of whole cloth.

846
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: It didn't have to be an event, would have to

847
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: be like we know of a plot. They would have

848
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: just made it happen.

849
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, done.

850
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: Joke about him being an accelerationist when he didn't have one.

851
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: That's true. He was an accelerationist without a can of

852
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 2: Zippo lighter fluid, Like yeah, that's that's true.

853
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So his trial, five people were put on

854
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: trial for the Reichstag fire. It was Marnus aka the

855
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: one who did it and confessed to doing it and

856
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: would have done it again, and then some other people,

857
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: the leader of the elected Communists in the parliament, and

858
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: three Bulgarian Communists. The Communist accusation against Marnis was that

859
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: he was a gay Nazi wanted the gay Nazis to

860
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: gay Nazi like him. The Nazi accusation against Marnis is

861
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: that he was a Communist party member who had been

862
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: part of a massive communist conspiracy to overthrow the government

863
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: and institute communism, which is closer to the truth. He

864
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: was a council Communist who was hoping that his individual act,

865
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,959
Speaker 1: or possibly a small group act will never know, would

866
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: spark a popular revolt against fascism. The Nazis had wanted

867
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: to get the Social Democrats blamed for it too, but

868
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: it didn't work. The Social Democrats in Germany are just

869
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: so astoundingly centrist that no one would buy this. They

870
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: were a huge reason in the public's mind as to

871
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: why the country didn't fall to communism in nineteen eighteen.

872
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 1: Nineteen nineteen was the Social Democrats, so they were like, nah,

873
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: could have been them. The public was willing to blame

874
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: the Communist Party. This is almost equally absurd. The German

875
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: Communist Party was parliamentary to its core at this point

876
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: and only believed in mass action and not individual action.

877
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: The Communists and the Social Democrats both came out to

878
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: condemn the fire, despite having been saying for years, oh,

879
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: the Nazis aren't existential threats to democracy and human life.

880
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: But they're like, you can't set their stuff on fire.

881
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 3: Peacefully protest, that's all you gotta do. Just peacefully protest.

882
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, stand in your free speech zone with your sign

883
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: and it'll be fine.

884
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: Exactly so they know who you are. Yeah.

885
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, no throwing rocks, no burden shit, history will change eventually.

886
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you throw cops through windows. What the fuck?

887
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: I used to make pins that said hucking rocks at

888
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: cops is not a crime, and I made them as

889
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: little pins. And then one time a cop was giving

890
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: me a three hundred dollars ticket for sitting on a

891
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: sidewalk eating a sandwich. What And I was like, oh God,

892
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: he reads my pin, my life is about to get

893
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: so much worse. But he did not read the pin.

894
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 3: That would be a moment where my stomach would be

895
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: in my throat.

896
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I was pretty used to being hassled by

897
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: cops at that point in my life. Three hundred dollars

898
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: for sitting on a sidewalk, Yeah, it's a way to

899
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: try and get people to move out of town. They're like,

900
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: we don't want homeless people in this town. We're going

901
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: to give you three hundred dollar ticket. We know you

902
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: can't pay it, so you'll probably leave rather than pay it.

903
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: Little did they know I was like actually housed. I

904
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: had just gotten food from a food cart and was

905
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: just like sitting on the sidewalk. But I still dress

906
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: like I'm a crustpunk. But like, you know, anyway, but

907
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: you didn't have a dog, did you? No? No?

908
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean It's my understanding is that, besides having companionship,

909
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 2: the dog frequently makes it harder for them to fuck

910
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 2: with you in such a simple way because they don't

911
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: want to deal with the paperwork about the animal.

912
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: Oh it makes some sense.

913
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what I've been told from Krusty's

914
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 2: like around here. But I don't know if that's fact

915
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 2: or fiction.

916
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of myth building that we do

917
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: when we live in strange lifestyles. But it might be true.

918
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't doubt. The bureaucracy is an annoying

919
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: thing to deal with, and I could see some lazy cogoing.

920
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: I don't want to deal with freaking animal control or whatever,

921
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: so it makes the next person to pick on easier.

922
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it makes sense.

923
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 3: Right.

924
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: So together, the Communists, the social Democrats, and the Nazis

925
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: all agreed this fire was the greatest crime of our

926
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: time and Marinus is the worst person in history. They

927
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: disagree about why he's the worst person, right, some of

928
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: them are like, he's a Nazi, he's a Kami, right O,

929
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: Like he's gay? Yeah, oh he is even worse. Yeah, no, totally.

930
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: The other four co defendants had alibis and had nothing

931
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: to do with it, and even at this early stage

932
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: under Nazi control, they were exonerated. The whole time that

933
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: he's on trial, fully aware that the rest of his

934
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 1: supposed comrades are throwing him under the bus, he never

935
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: says a single word against any of his Code defendants,

936
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: despite the words that they say against him. I want

937
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: to quote an anarchist newspaper from nineteen thirty three talking

938
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: about that, like during the trial quote, he has said

939
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: nothing that might in any way damage his Code defendants.

940
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: He has not even tried an elaborate exposition of his

941
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: political and social views at the trial, most probably for

942
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: fear that they might be interpreted as akin to those

943
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: of the four communists the German government is trying to

944
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: link to the Reichstag fire, who he wishes an all

945
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: justice to exonerate. So he's like not even going to

946
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: get into the like, well, I'm a comedy, but like

947
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 1: not that kind of COMI because he's afraid that it'll

948
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: be used against the communists. You know, his co defendants

949
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 1: did not offer him the same grace. One called him

950
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: an narcosyndicalist, which I think they I think it was

951
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 1: like derogatory, like in you know, I just think it's funny.

952
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 1: It's fine be an narcosyndicalist. One of the Bulgarian communists

953
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: fought for him getting the death penalty. Wow, he wanted

954
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: the Nazis to kill this council communist because he'd quote

955
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: worked against the proletariat. Jail guy. Yeah, hate that guy.

956
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure, I bet you noe know. Those people

957
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: had a fun rest of their life regardless of this.

958
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: That's fair.

959
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: Actually, that's true. And I'm going to talk about what

960
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: happened to the people who wrote the Brown Book in

961
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: a moment.

962
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 3: Hell yeah.

963
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: For the most part, the libertarian socialist movement aka the anarchist,

964
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: the anarcho syndicalists, the council Communists, the left communist blah

965
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: blah blah blahlah. The people don't like Bolsheviks. They were

966
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: the ones defending him. They set up defense committees and

967
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: shit in a bunch of different countries. And the first

968
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: day of the trial, folks published the Red Book. And

969
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: this was a refutation of all of the lives of

970
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: the Brown Book. It is filled with all of the

971
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: character references of everyone coming forward and being like no

972
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: You're just entirely wrong. You've entirely made this up. This

973
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: man is a very committed socialist. I haven't read The

974
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: Red Book yet, and I'm terrified to read it because

975
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: of like it might also be like, in no way

976
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: was he gay. That would be terrible. He's good and

977
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: not bad. So I'm like afraid of finding that. But

978
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: what I do know is that and Weimar, Germany, Magnus Hirschfeld,

979
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: one of the famous researchers of human sexuality and history,

980
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: had once written about the anarchists, being like, oh, that's

981
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: where that's that's where you find the gay lefties. All

982
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: the gays are anarchists, so you know, I'm sure there's homophobia.

983
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: But if you've read The Red Book, message me, but

984
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: I won't notice it because it's kind of get filtered

985
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: into my unread messages on Instagram, which is the only

986
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: public way to reach me. And I don't read my

987
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: unread messages from different people I don't know, so it

988
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 1: won't work. But you can try, and I sometimes look whatever. Anyway, Honestly,

989
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: if you've read The Red Book, you probably like know

990
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: me through various connections to not that many people in

991
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: this world who are likely to have ever read this.

992
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: All five of them are already direct friends or contacts.

993
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, anyway. As for the editors of the Brown

994
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 1: book that he's a gay Nazi fairy tale, there is

995
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 1: about two different ways that like Stalinist communists in the

996
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and forties died. One of them is that

997
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: you get killed by Hitler. The other one is that

998
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: he had killed by Stalinists. It's a crapshoot as to

999
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: who has killed more communists, Stalin or Hitler, because these

1000
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: two were killed by other Stalinists. One of them was

1001
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: murdered by his fellow Stalinists in nineteen forty the other

1002
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: went on to hunt down socialist and anarchists during the

1003
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War before he was then turned on by

1004
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,399
Speaker 1: his own side and hanged in Prague in nineteen fifty

1005
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: two for being counter revolutionary or whatever. The fuck is

1006
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: not a good idea to be an authoritarian. As for Marnus,

1007
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: he was convicted and he was sentenced to death. On

1008
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: January tenth, nineteen thirty four, three days before his twenty

1009
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: fifth birthday. They marched him out to the guillotine and

1010
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: took off his head. Damn that man did a lot

1011
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: in fucking twenty four years. Yeah, the Nazis refused his

1012
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: family's request for the body, and he was buried twice

1013
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: as deep as usual in an anonymous grave under a stone,

1014
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: devoid of any inscription. He was actually exhumed last year

1015
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, because they wanted to run toxicology

1016
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: reports on his body, because there's all of this, Like,

1017
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: people still argue about this a lot, right now, right, what.

1018
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 3: Would they what would toxicology show?

1019
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: So he was so quiet and like almost sleepy during

1020
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 1: his trial that people thought he might have been drugged

1021
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: by the Nazis. When they exhumed his body to look,

1022
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: they found no positive proof of that, but they weren't.

1023
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 1: You can't prove negative proof on one hundred year old corpse,

1024
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: right right, right, So we do not know. It makes

1025
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: sense to me this story of this, like wild adventurer

1026
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: who is going blind, who knows his time is done,

1027
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: who is just trying to stay quiet to not let

1028
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: anyone else get in trouble for what he's done, and

1029
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: goes to his grave. I don't need any convincing that

1030
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: he was drugged.

1031
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, accepting his fate, but at the same

1032
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: time being brave for those around him. Yeah, and the

1033
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 2: potential I don't know if this was going through his

1034
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 2: mind at all, but being a martyr really, like, I mean,

1035
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: all those things could have been going through his mind.

1036
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, he also knew what a hatchet job had

1037
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: been done on him.

1038
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 2: You know.

1039
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: His fellow Communists like used their defense argument was basically

1040
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: the Brown Book. They were like, now fuck him though

1041
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: he's a Nazi. You know, that's got to be heartbreaking.

1042
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: Like a couple of different articles I've read about have

1043
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: talked about like the second death of him or you know,

1044
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: because he's like also just killed by history. And when

1045
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: the Nazi government fell after Carl, would you say that's

1046
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: the largest military effort in the history of humanity?

1047
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, The Eastern Front has never been ever seen

1048
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: before and hopefully never again. But World War Two, the

1049
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 2: Eastern Front in particular, but all of it combined is

1050
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: absolutely the most the largest conflict ever seen easily.

1051
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. After everyone got together and destroyed a lawful lot

1052
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: more buildings than just the one. They put the Nazis

1053
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: on trial, and the prominent Nazi Goring put it bluntly,

1054
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: no Nazis were involved in the burning of the Reichstag

1055
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: and the Communist ministers would have been arrested eventually anyhow.

1056
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: In fact, he said it would have been more useful

1057
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 1: if they had waited a few weeks because they didn't

1058
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: know all the Communist ministers yet, because the elections hadn't

1059
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: happened yet. In nineteen fifty nine, a journalist wrote like

1060
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: seven hundred pages of evidence about Marnus had indeed acted alone,

1061
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: and at that point it became the general view of historians.

1062
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: Marnus's brother Yan kept fighting for his brother's legacy. Marnus

1063
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: was tried and retried again and again. After his death

1064
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six, his sentence was reversed to eight

1065
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: years because they're like, well, he burned a building. You're

1066
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: not supposed to do that. You know, wait, how does

1067
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: that am? I? It's just for history. Oh, he's dead, right,

1068
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: Like they they're trying to be like, well, let's find

1069
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: out what the real truth and justice would be, right, okay,

1070
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: you know they're LARPing, yeah, totally justice system, yeah okay.

1071
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty he was acquitted, and then in nineteen

1072
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: eighty one they reversed his acquittal and he was convicted

1073
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: again to eight years in prison. I feel like he's

1074
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: been through enough, you know, I know. And then in

1075
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight he was finally pardoned. And then

1076
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen a book came out that was like, no,

1077
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: he was totally a Nazi. And I haven't read that

1078
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: book yet, but it's like, I think its core argument

1079
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 1: is that, like the fire was started in multiple places,

1080
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, not physically possible for one man, which

1081
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: is how I first ran across the Like, this man

1082
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: would not have told you if he had friends there. Yeah,

1083
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: there is no part of me that thinks that this

1084
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: man couldn't keep a secret to his grave. Like you

1085
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: do not look at this man and say, here's someone

1086
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: who hasn't thought about what's involved in revolutionary struggle, the

1087
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: person who's been struggling since he was well born, but

1088
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: ten you know, Yeah, either.

1089
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 2: One of those situations is just as plausible as we

1090
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: said earlier. And also the fire succeeded in damaging the

1091
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 2: Reichs dog significantly. But yeah, it was also such a

1092
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: state of ill prepared to do what he planned to

1093
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: do too, which is oddly and I would think if

1094
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: there was more people involved, they would have had even

1095
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: though they had success, they would have even more success.

1096
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 2: I don't have to put that in a better way.

1097
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: I think that you're probably right. And that's like how

1098
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: I ended up. Like I started off kind of doing

1099
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: this research being like, oh, because I knew enough to

1100
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: know he was like a pretty solid comrade, and that

1101
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: also he knew how to keep his mouth shut. So

1102
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, there's other people and he kept

1103
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: his mouth shut. Whatever you because I've run across that

1104
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: time and time again in my history research, right, But no,

1105
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: you're right. Like by the end, I'm like, no, it's

1106
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: probably him alone, And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, right,

1107
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: maybe we will find out. There's no part of me

1108
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: that believes that he was a Nazi agent, But maybe

1109
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: we'll find out that the Nazis like ran over and

1110
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: start some more fires or or knew he was going

1111
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 1: to do it, and like they.

1112
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 3: Probably saw him do it at nine pm and they

1113
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 3: nine thirty, maybe through a matching or something. I don't know.

1114
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, at least if this had happened nowadays,

1115
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 2: ring door camera would have provided the footage to the call.

1116
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, and he still would have done it because

1117
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: he was not afraid of I mean, he tried to

1118
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: swim the channel twice just to get enough money to like,

1119
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: fucking yeah walk to China with you know me.

1120
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 3: I feel like this might be another reason why he

1121
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 3: didn't make it a huge effort to defend himself, because

1122
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 3: I feel like he's been through, like interacted with enough

1123
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 3: authorities to realize, like, I wouldn't do any good. Yeah,

1124
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 3: like he kind of accepted his fate.

1125
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally. And that is the story of Marnus,

1126
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: And it is the story of how the Reichschrog fire

1127
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: was not an inside job, and how almost all the time,

1128
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: when people want to say something's a conspiracy or that

1129
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: it is an inside job, they're wrong. And when we

1130
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: assume that something was an inside job, we're often taking

1131
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: an agency away from people who make bad decisions for

1132
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: good reasons, even if we were the opposite team. Right.

1133
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: Imagine those J sixers, right, They're all being accused by

1134
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: their own side of being false flag. And I think

1135
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: that's funny as shit because I fucking hate them all,

1136
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: But like it's also almost heartbreaking, right because they're like,

1137
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: we're doing it. Come on, everyone, we're gonna defend democracy

1138
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: by staging a coup or whatever fucking's going through their heads.

1139
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: And then everyone's immediately like, ah, those are Antifa, Like

1140
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: like imagine how heartbreaking that would be. And I just

1141
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: like get so like I don't know, and this is

1142
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: like not universally true. There are false flag attacks, right,

1143
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: But what I think usually happens is that everyone is

1144
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: ready to play the hands that they have been dealt.

1145
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: And the Nazis absolutely had a contingency plan for exactly

1146
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: this situation and then used it. So whenever you're like, ah,

1147
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: they were so ready to capitalize on the following yeah,

1148
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: we should be ready to capitalize on bad things. That

1149
00:56:58,120 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: happened was when I used to get docks by Nazis.

1150
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: I just like use it to sell more albums because

1151
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, these people are trying to

1152
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: murder me and everyone I love. They hate my music video.

1153
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: You want to see my music video? Fuck it? You know,

1154
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: we play the fucking hands we're delt like yeah, it

1155
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: doesn't mean I made up my own I mean whatever

1156
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: to get like three thousand views on YouTube. No one

1157
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: actually thinks this, but like.

1158
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 2: Well that's I think essentiallyest thing I think, like maybe

1159
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: it's humanity in general, Maybe it's just the way our

1160
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 2: brains work, Maybe it's societal who knows what the how

1161
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: these we get to where we get to. But I

1162
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: think the simple thing is is that when it has

1163
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: been proven without a doubt or close to it, that

1164
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: it was some form of conspiratorial action, then that's worth considering, right,

1165
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: But it should not be the jump to default.

1166
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:43,439
Speaker 1: Right.

1167
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 2: The default should be the simplest answer possible. And that's

1168
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: probably what happened. And if it was dumb to boot,

1169
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: it was probably even more correct because people do dumb stuff.

1170
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: I'm not saying he did something dumb or not.

1171
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying no, I mean Marus kind of did something dumb.

1172
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: I just it didn't work out.

1173
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I'm just saying that. I'm just saying, simplest

1174
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 2: answer with a touch of dumb is a very human thing. Yeah,

1175
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 2: And that's where we should just default to totally.

1176
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: Well, that's the restag Fire episode that I was like, man,

1177
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: am I doing this? But I'm doing it, and I

1178
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: did it, and I hope we'll see you all next

1179
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: week when we talk about more cool people who did

1180
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: either cool stuff or questionable stuff.

1181
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes one or the other Right, they don't even know

1182
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,919
Speaker 2: when they're doing the action. It's like how the action

1183
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 2: turns out, turns out to be if it was cool

1184
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 2: or not right, I mean to a degree.

1185
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: Right.

1186
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: So, glooping back to John Brown, his failure turned out

1187
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 2: to be only effective in that in the long run

1188
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: it made it work in a different way. But that

1189
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 2: could have easily gone to just like this idiot got

1190
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 2: himself killed, like that could have been the end of it, right, totally,

1191
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 2: So this could have also turned out differently if that,

1192
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: If things had just lined up differently, or they hadn't

1193
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: thrown them under the bus, who knows what could have

1194
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 2: come of it.

1195
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, if Germany had had a civil war to try

1196
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: and stop Nazis, world would have looked pretty different. They

1197
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: might have lost the civil war, but they would have

1198
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: fucked up the Nazis in the process.

1199
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: Well, when you reach up to that top shelf and

1200
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 2: pull out that jar that says chaos on it and

1201
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 2: open that lid, you literally don't know what's coming out.

1202
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: You just don't like that's you open the It is

1203
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: what's advertised on the tin, And that's totally Sometimes it

1204
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 2: works out and sometimes it doesn't.

1205
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: Totally. Well, if people want to open up a jar

1206
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: of the YouTube, I got nothing, Carl, what are you

1207
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: up to?

1208
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean my normal thing. If you haven't

1209
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 2: seen me already, you can find me on YouTube in

1210
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: range TV, or you can find all my decentralized distribution points,

1211
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 2: which I've been talking about for nine years now in

1212
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 2: range dot TV. Even though everyone watches on YouTube. There's

1213
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: an example of something like that. Boy, if we had

1214
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 2: been decentralizing control of the media for the last nine years,

1215
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 2: maybe we'd be in a better place today.

1216
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:51,439
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1217
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a whole other conversation. But anyways, I do

1218
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: a lot of topics based on firearms, historical content and

1219
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: the intersectionality of the social implications of those things combined

1220
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: for good and bad. So if that's a topic that

1221
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 2: interest you that's different than the normal firearms stuff, you

1222
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: might find out there in range dot TV. And thank

1223
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 2: you for having me here. This was a really I

1224
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:13,919
Speaker 2: didn't know what we were going to be talking about,

1225
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: but I'm really honored and thankfully you brought me onto

1226
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: the show again. Yeah, especially for this topic. It's a

1227
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 2: thank you appreciate it.

1228
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: I was like sitting there and I was like, Oh,

1229
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: Carl this week, I was like, ah, it's perfect because

1230
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: I was like, I mean, it's not a gun episode, right,

1231
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: but it is absolutely a you know, history of World

1232
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: War two and history of conflict, and you know the

1233
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: social stuff that comes before the larger military conflict and things.

1234
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: So I was I was really excited to have you.

1235
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: If folks who are listening want to play a tabletop

1236
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: role playing game I wrote, it's called Pan Number City.

1237
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: I wrote it with two other people, and it is available.

1238
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: I was gonna say wherever you get, but well, I

1239
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: guess it's probably available wherever you get books. Should we

1240
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: probably should buy it from a game seller or from

1241
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: us at Strangers in the Tangled Wilderness. If you just

1242
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: look up pannumber City and it's fun and you can

1243
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: play in a kind of vimar our style but high

1244
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: fantasy revolt against a god king. Everyone's like running around

1245
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: on motorcycles that explode and playing jazz even though everyone's starving,

1246
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: and people hang out and talk to rats. If you

1247
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: want to watch me play this game with Jamie Loftus

1248
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: playing a rat king someone who hangs out and talks

1249
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: to rats, you can find that on YouTube. If you

1250
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: look up a number city. That's what I want to plug.

1251
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: I really like the game I wrote, Otherwise I wouldn't

1252
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: have written it. Nice.

1253
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 3: Merger also wrote a book that you should pre order.

1254
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 3: That's what I'm gonna plug.

1255
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Sapling Cage and duh. See y'all next week.

1256
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1257
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media.

1258
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1259
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 3: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1260
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.