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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. My wife says, I've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of useless information in my brain, and she

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily say that in a disparaging manner. Particularly it

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Speaker 1: comes in handy when we go to do trivia, and

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Speaker 1: it's something I enjoy and I love to read, and

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Speaker 1: particularly I love to read about history. I'm thinking we

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Speaker 1: have just had coronation or the Brits have as I'm

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Speaker 1: laying the sound down right now, and I believe it's

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Speaker 1: King Charles the Third, if I'm not mistaken. And here's

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Speaker 1: the thing about it, there's another King of England that

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Speaker 1: I find far more fascinating. He came along in a

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Speaker 1: very crucial time period when there was great turmoil in

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Speaker 1: Great Britain over religion. His name was Charles the First.

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Speaker 1: I've been fascinated by him because he didn't seem like

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Speaker 1: necessarily a brutal dictator or anything. But he died very brutally.

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Speaker 1: He was actually publicly executed, and when he was executed,

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Speaker 1: he died as a result of an executioner wielding a

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Speaker 1: large bladed instrument over his head. It hung in the

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Speaker 1: air for a moment and it fell upon his neck.

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Speaker 1: And separated his head from his shoulders. Today, on body Bags,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually going to chat about a cause of death

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Speaker 1: that to this point I have yet to address, and

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Speaker 1: that is a homicide by means of decapitation. Today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the homicide of America, Theayer out

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Speaker 1: of Minnesota. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.

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Speaker 1: My buddy Dave Max joining me right now. Dave, how

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Speaker 1: you doing? Man?

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Speaker 2: So far, so good. A little curious as to why

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Speaker 2: we're going to do this.

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Speaker 1: Story though, Oh yeah, why was that? Well?

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Speaker 2: All right, there's a whole lot to it. And when

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Speaker 2: I say there's a whole lot to it, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of background. But when you come right down to

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Speaker 2: the body bags portion of it, I'm asking this because

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Joe, but is this one where you

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Speaker 2: have to use two bags? And I'm not being funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, people have asked me that. Okay, I've had cases,

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Speaker 1: generally involving blast trauma, airplane crashes every now and then

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Speaker 1: a car crash where I've had to use bags plural

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Speaker 1: in order to facilitate collection of remains. But most of

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Speaker 1: the time those remains and I remember one plane crash

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Speaker 1: in particular that had multiple victims, where we had these

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Speaker 1: bodies that were just so devastated. We at the time

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Speaker 1: we couldn't say, well, in the field, we couldn't say well,

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Speaker 1: this arm belongs with this body because they were so mangled,

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Speaker 1: and so we would just organize the anatomic elements as

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Speaker 1: best we could and then take these items back to

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Speaker 1: the Morgan try to marry them up accordingly. I've had

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Speaker 1: traumatic decapitations. Most of the time these are involving motor

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Speaker 1: vehicle accident. There's that classic scene I think it's the

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Speaker 1: movie which one is it? The Omen? The Original Omen,

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Speaker 1: where you have the photographer that is decapitated by a

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Speaker 1: piece of glass. I've had motor vehicle accidents where you

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Speaker 1: have something that will pass through a windshield because you

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Speaker 1: have a victim that's in a static position okay, they're

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Speaker 1: driving a vehicle, that they're seated in a vehicle, their

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Speaker 1: head is literally separated from their body. I don't recall

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Speaker 1: ever working a hum where the cause of death has

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Speaker 1: been listed as a decapitation. It just kind of sets

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Speaker 1: this apart. I think in all of the cases that

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Speaker 1: we've discussed on body bags.

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Speaker 2: We actually are dealing with a domestic violence situation, Joe.

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Speaker 2: The end result is part of the story and it's

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Speaker 2: why we're doing this. But the reality is this is

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Speaker 2: a domestic violence story that dated back several years. The

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Speaker 2: couple have been dating for seven years, and in that

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Speaker 2: time period, they'd had multiple run ins with police because

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Speaker 2: America Thayer was in trouble with her boyfriend for whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, on the day that

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Speaker 2: this took place, they were on their way to court

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Speaker 2: America Thayer's boyfriend they had an argument. Don on one

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Speaker 2: was called. The police show up and there was a

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Speaker 2: standoff at their apartment and so he set their apartment

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Speaker 2: on fire to try to get the cops to leave.

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Speaker 2: And that was a domestic violence situation that kept. It

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Speaker 2: was just going out of control. That's actually why they

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Speaker 2: were headed to court that day when all this happened.

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Speaker 2: So we have several different police interactions with this couple

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Speaker 2: and with America they are being oh, and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say typical because that's so wrong, but she

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Speaker 2: was the battered spouse. Even after all of the different

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Speaker 2: things went on with police, America there wrote the court

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Speaker 2: a handwritten letter asking them to get rid of a

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Speaker 2: no contact order because her boyfriend, slash abuser, didn't speak English,

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Speaker 2: he was from Cuba and he needed her to help him.

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Speaker 2: That no contact order was put in place so he

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Speaker 2: couldn't get near enough to hurt her. And she wrote

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Speaker 2: the personalized, handwritten letter to the court asking that the

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Speaker 2: no contact order be removed, and it.

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Speaker 1: Was Yeah, and it goes on for so long, and

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Speaker 1: we hear so many of these cases. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: just a little aside, I've seen the end result over

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Speaker 1: the course of my career. What happens when these cases

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Speaker 1: gone for a protracted period of time. Our friend Nancy Gray,

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Speaker 1: she has a real special place in her heart for

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Speaker 1: victims of domestic violence. And while I've got everybody's attention,

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Speaker 1: there is actually a National Domestic Violence hotline and that

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Speaker 1: number is one eight hundred and seven ninety nine seven

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Speaker 1: two three three, or you can go to their website,

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Speaker 1: which is just simply thehotline dot org. And if you

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Speaker 1: or any of your friends are suffering in a situation

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Speaker 1: like this, you know, check them out and see if

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Speaker 1: they can come up with some resources for you. But

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Speaker 1: in this case, this has gone on, David, if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken for at least a decade, perhaps a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, and you've got this comfort level of escalation.

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Speaker 1: You allow that old say and give them an inch

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Speaker 1: to take a mile, give them a rope, they think

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Speaker 1: they're cowboy, and it just continues to replicate or increase

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Speaker 1: in intensity, this sort of thing. And what's really sad

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Speaker 1: about America is that we find she was well loved.

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Speaker 1: She actually worked for my pillow company up in Minnesota.

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Speaker 1: Her coworkers were just absolutely heartbroken and when they found

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Speaker 1: out about this case because the level, I think the

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Speaker 1: level of violence in this particular case is so over

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Speaker 1: the top that it's hard for people to comprehend. Firearms

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Speaker 1: and those sorts of things are difficult as well, But

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Speaker 1: when you start to talk about decapitation, most of the time,

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Speaker 1: when you and I have a discussion on body bags,

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Speaker 1: about decapitation, it's an adjunct to dismemberment. We've covered ki.

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Speaker 1: It seems like we've been washing dismemberment cases for some reason,

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Speaker 1: just in the recent months, where people are trying to

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Speaker 1: take a part of body in order to dispose it.

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Speaker 1: That's not the case here. This case actually centers around

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Speaker 1: America being not in a private spot, just keep this

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Speaker 1: in mind, but in a very public location where she

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Speaker 1: was decapitated in front of witnesses. I'd mentioned early on

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Speaker 1: about Charles the First He was publicly beheaded, and this

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Speaker 1: is something that has gone on for thousands of years

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Speaker 1: as a form of execution. You know, the French allegedly

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Speaker 1: perfected the process of decapitation vis a vis the guillotine,

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Speaker 1: and they had actually had well their last I think

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Speaker 1: public guillotining had taken place, like back in the twenties.

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Speaker 1: I remember, for some reasons seeing a still image of

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Speaker 1: this event having taken place, and I've seen images of

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Speaker 1: the fellow's body, and that was the last public one,

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Speaker 1: and I think that they were still using the methodology.

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Speaker 1: I think their last one was either like in seventy

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Speaker 1: six or seventy seven, but it was done in a

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Speaker 1: sequestered area, and so it has still continued. There been

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Speaker 1: a number of public executions around the world, the Middle

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Speaker 1: East country, some of them still use beheading as a

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Speaker 1: way of public execution. When you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: this area that this took place up in Minnesota, it's

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Speaker 1: a rather nice area, families, neighborhood, this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and I can't begin to imagine what it would be

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Speaker 1: like to be outside your home and actually have this

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Speaker 1: thing happening before you. It has to be one of

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Speaker 1: those moments like, am I actually You're frozen for a

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Speaker 1: moment and you're thinking, am I actually witnessing this? Is

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Speaker 1: this actually happening? And then your fears are certainly confirmed.

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Speaker 2: I think while this was taking place, there were witnesses.

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Speaker 2: It took place at two thirty in the afternoon, but

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Speaker 2: beyond that people were videotaping. In this day and age

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Speaker 2: where we all almost all of have a cell phone

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Speaker 2: that has a camera and the ability to upload things

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Speaker 2: online for whatever reason, to document every aspect of our

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Speaker 2: life instead of helping this situation you have, but you're

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Speaker 2: watching a person who is obviously being beaten. You have

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Speaker 2: a man standing outside a Chrystler three hundred. I believe

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Speaker 2: they're parked in a residential area. I'm looking at a

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Speaker 2: picture of it right now of where this took place,

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Speaker 2: and the man is beating You don't know that the

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Speaker 2: victim is male or female. They're in the front seat

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Speaker 2: of the car, but they're taking a pounding and rather

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Speaker 2: than go to the aid of who is being beaten

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Speaker 2: and try to put a stop to this. Pull out

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Speaker 2: your phone and start videotaping, and as this crime takes place,

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Speaker 2: you decide to videotape the entire thing and then upload

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Speaker 2: this for all the world to see. It is the

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Speaker 2: most graphic, gruesome video I've ever seen, And all I

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Speaker 2: could think of, Joe is our we trained monkeys that

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Speaker 2: instead of trying to help, we think about how can

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Speaker 2: I take advantage of this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like it. Sometimes the monsters out among

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Speaker 1: us are not necessarily the ones wielding wielding the weapons,

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Speaker 1: now are they? And the word that comes to mind

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Speaker 1: is interdiction. And it's easy to say, well, you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's something that the police should do. It's old, it's time.

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Speaker 1: You know, people say I don't want to get involved.

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Speaker 1: You wanted to get involved, But you wanted to get involved.

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Speaker 1: From a videography standpoint, that's the road that you chose.

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Speaker 1: You were not compelled toward the action. You were not

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Speaker 1: motivated to interdict. And maybe I don't know, they thought

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Speaker 1: that they were going to take a beating if they

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Speaker 1: ran over and interdicted instead of videotaping, our reactive mind

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Speaker 1: seems to be in neutral stuck in neutral for some

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Speaker 1: reason because of these things that we carry in our

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Speaker 1: pockets with us everywhere, and that we have to push

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Speaker 1: it out there. It's brutal at every level. And I

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Speaker 1: know DA will be very pleased that they have a

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Speaker 1: videotape of this when trial comes about, because this is

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Speaker 1: something you're documenting, an actual homicide. She was. Initially, from

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Speaker 1: my understanding, the perpetrator was standing outside of the door

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Speaker 1: and for some reason he had a dumbbell in his hand.

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Speaker 1: Just imagine this. He had taken the dumbbell and had

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Speaker 1: begun to beat her in the chest with it, apparently,

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Speaker 1: and then there was a head strike. The witnesses said

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Speaker 1: they saw him produce a large knife at that moment

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Speaker 1: in time, and I think knife actually translates into machete,

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Speaker 1: and for those that are not familiar with a machete,

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Speaker 1: it's a single edged weapon. It's got a very heavy

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Speaker 1: spine on it. And the reason machetes are built like

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Speaker 1: they are and constructed like they are, they have been

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Speaker 1: used for years and years, particularly I think in the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: Those individuals down there use them as weapons, but they

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Speaker 1: were also used as a farming tool. And do you

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Speaker 1: know specifically what crop they were used with. They famously,

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Speaker 1: I would think sugar cane. Yeah, you're absolutely, you're right

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Speaker 1: on the money. Yeah, yeah, And you know, coming from

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Speaker 1: South Louisiana, they grow a lot of sugar cane down there,

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Speaker 1: and they were used to harvest sugar cane with. So

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Speaker 1: you can take it and the weight of this blade

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Speaker 1: and how it's constructed, and the cutting edge is very

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Speaker 1: long on this thing. It's not the same link that's say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, as a sword, but it's certainly it's bigger

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Speaker 1: than what people might think of a bowie knife. And

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Speaker 1: you can wield it and swing it almost like a

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Speaker 1: bat if you will, and chop with it. So it's

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Speaker 1: a chopping instrument that can. You know, you can put

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Speaker 1: a very fine edge on it and slice right through

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Speaker 1: sugar cane. If anybody has ever had any experience with

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Speaker 1: sugarcane or maybe even bamboo, you know that it's very resilient,

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Speaker 1: it's very tough, and so they had to create the

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Speaker 1: blade in order to facilitate this. Machetes are very popular

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Speaker 1: in the Caribbean as well. Cuba, they grow a lot

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Speaker 1: of sugarcane there and so you know they're used worldwide,

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Speaker 1: and some people carry them as a defense tool. My father,

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Speaker 1: I even remember sent home when he was in the Philippines,

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Speaker 1: who was in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam Era,

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Speaker 1: and sent home a machete to me as a little boy,

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Speaker 1: and it had a handle that was carved out of

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Speaker 1: what was what I was told was the second hardest

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Speaker 1: wood in the world, in some wood called monkey wood,

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Speaker 1: and it was black, the color of the of the woods,

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Speaker 1: actually black and very resilient, had a brass handle on it.

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Speaker 2: I'm concerned about the area, and not concerned this wrong term.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about person here, the victim of America in

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Speaker 2: the car. He's already beaten her with the dumbbell, and

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Speaker 2: now he's got the machete and he's going to decapitator.

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Speaker 2: We already covered this at the beginning, so I'm not

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Speaker 2: throwing out anything you don't already know. But I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to picture how he could get the momentum, the power

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Speaker 2: necessary to swing the machete to be able to decapitate

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Speaker 2: her in the area.

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Speaker 1: Provided I was singing the same thing, because you know

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Speaker 1: the way the witnesses have described this, and if anybody home,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can do this at home, you know,

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Speaker 1: you just go and visualize with your vehicle. A sedan

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Speaker 1: perhaps doesn't have to be a sedan, but I think

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Speaker 1: this is a Chrysler three hundred, so it's a four

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Speaker 1: door car. If she's positioned in the front seat, the

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Speaker 1: momentum that it would take, the velocity that would have

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Speaker 1: to be generated in a very short stroke, because it

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Speaker 1: would be a short stroke. But you're inhibited because your

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Speaker 1: arm has a certain link to it, and you add

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Speaker 1: this long blade. You couldn't do this in one fail swoop.

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Speaker 1: People would say, well, I have a knife that's so

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Speaker 1: sharp it'll cut through anything. Yeah, but still you're not

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Speaker 1: just talking about simply cutting a piece of paper here.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about multiple layers of soft tissue. And then

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Speaker 1: you're talking about going through the spinal proceeds in the

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Speaker 1: back of the neck. How long I think did this take?

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Speaker 1: And that would be something that would have to be

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Speaker 1: assessed in the morgue. I do know this though, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that when it's happened, not only did these people that

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Speaker 1: were bearing witness to this event see America brutalized in

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Speaker 1: what they saw next her bloody body being drugged from

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Speaker 1: the car by the perpetrator placed on the ground, and

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Speaker 1: then the same individual grabbed her head that was now

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Speaker 1: removed from her body and ladd immediately adjacent to her

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Speaker 1: bloody corpse outside of the vehicle. I never really minded

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Speaker 1: working really bloody scenes within structures, within homes. Certainly, I

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Speaker 1: didn't mind working them outdoors. Being a forensic investigator, a

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Speaker 1: death investigator, specifically, you have to document the environment. But

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Speaker 1: you know, Dave, one of the things that I never

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Speaker 1: really ever got used to was climbing inside of a vehicle.

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Speaker 1: I never liked it because it's constricting. There's nowhere. Let's say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you're standing at a crime scene where you

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Speaker 1: have remains that are in a living room, or you're

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Speaker 1: outside of a home in an open field. You can

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Speaker 1: kind of orbit around the specific area where everything has

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Speaker 1: taken place. You have a kind of freedom of movement.

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Speaker 1: You can take your photographic images. We followed the points

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Speaker 1: of the compass. That's kind of how you do it,

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Speaker 1: from mac grow to micro and you do all the

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Speaker 1: points kind of three hundred and sixty degrees all the

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Speaker 1: way around the body, and then you tighten in and

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Speaker 1: you do that again, and you do the same process

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Speaker 1: with looking for trace evidence, and you know all these

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Speaker 1: other things you're documenting blood stain, the dynamic, what kind

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Speaker 1: of dynamic you're looking at, and this sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: But when you're inside of a car, I always felt

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Speaker 1: like I was going to miss something, you know, because

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Speaker 1: there's so many little hidden areas, little grooves, contours, and

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Speaker 1: you never can quite get positioned in there. And this

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Speaker 1: one other element, particularly as it applies to America's homicide,

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Speaker 1: is that it would have been absolutely bathed in blood

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Speaker 1: in that environment.

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Speaker 2: The shocking part of this, as we've talked about it,

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Speaker 2: Joe to me, are the nine to one one calls.

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Speaker 2: I would think that if you or I were near

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Speaker 2: the scene saw something taking place, that a nine to

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Speaker 2: one one call would be made saying this is going

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Speaker 2: on and there are two guys running towards the action,

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Speaker 2: that would be the appropriate number one call. Now that's

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Speaker 2: not what happened. There's a call that came in at

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Speaker 2: two thirty one to nine one one. It was a female.

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Speaker 2: The perpetrator of this crime was supposed to be in

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Speaker 2: court that day for a previous attack on his significant other.

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Speaker 2: America there and he was refusing to go to court.

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Speaker 2: They had a friend in the car with him, and

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Speaker 2: he gave witness to this argument that took place. Now,

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Speaker 2: that was it. Between two pm and two thirty one,

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Speaker 2: We go from he won't go to court. America is

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Speaker 2: crying because he won't go to court and he's going

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Speaker 2: to have to go to jail now and again she's

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Speaker 2: crying for her abuser. If you're in an abusive relationship,

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Speaker 2: get out. She's crying for her abuser because he won't

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Speaker 2: go to court. She doesn't want to go to jail.

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Speaker 2: He gets mad at her. The friend gets out of

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Speaker 2: the car, and that's where we see them together in

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Speaker 2: a neighborhood broad daylight. Alexis Subrette gets out of the

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Speaker 2: car and starts pounding away at America Thayer. He first

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Speaker 2: uses a dumbbell, then breaks out the machete. Nine one

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Speaker 2: one gets a call of a knife stabbing, but at

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Speaker 2: two thirty one, a nine to one one call is

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Speaker 2: placed by a woman who is right there at the scene.

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Speaker 2: This is happening in front of her house. She reports

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Speaker 2: that a mail a man has just pulled a body

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Speaker 2: out of his car and it has no head. The

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Speaker 2: nine to one one caller said the mail got out

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Speaker 2: of the car, was chopping at something in the car

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Speaker 2: with a huge knife, tossed the knife into the grass,

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Speaker 2: took what looks like a head with hair out of

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Speaker 2: the car, threw it on the ground, then pulled the

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Speaker 2: body out of the car. The man is then described

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Speaker 2: as heading eastbound down an alleyway, and she described the

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Speaker 2: man as wearing a white T shirt and a hat.

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Speaker 2: That is the exact description of an eyewitness account of

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Speaker 2: what took place on that day. And it sounds like

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Speaker 2: something out of a horror flake.

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Speaker 1: It does. You have visions of somebody in some horrible

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Speaker 1: mask wielding a machete. It's what and here's what, you know.

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Speaker 1: What really struck me the most is not necessarily the

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Speaker 1: level of gore. Perhaps we're staying in the horror vein

347
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Speaker 1: here is the fact that he began hoofing it away

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Speaker 1: from the location. That tells me, Dave, that there's an

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Speaker 1: awareness on his part that he's done wrong.

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Speaker 2: Now, what do you do, Joe as an investigator, as

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Speaker 2: a forensic investigator, where do you start with this? Because

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Speaker 2: you've got to determine so many things about this. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's obvious there's a body with no head, but you

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Speaker 2: have to put this back together in such a way

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Speaker 2: that in court it can be laid out for the

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Speaker 2: average person to understand what took place and who is

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Speaker 2: true add fault. I don't even know where you begin

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Speaker 2: with that. I am curious, though, do you start with

359
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Speaker 2: determining was she dead before her head was severed?

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Speaker 1: That's going to track back to the morgue when her

361
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Speaker 1: remains are finally examined there in ideal circumstances, you know,

362
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Speaker 1: the ideal circumstances of lighting, where you have all of

363
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Speaker 1: the instruments that you're gonna need. Chief among them is

364
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Speaker 1: X ray. I think in order to not just examine,

365
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Speaker 1: but to document. It's very difficult to do this at

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Speaker 1: the scene, I think as accurately as you could back

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Speaker 1: at the morgue. Here's the thing. We've got two weapons

368
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Speaker 1: involved here, and they will both have been collected at

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Speaker 1: the scene. Here's something that folks might not know. Did

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Speaker 1: you know that even in homicides, if you have a

371
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Speaker 1: good relationship, if the police, the police investigators have a

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Speaker 1: good relationship with the emmy and this is just one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons you need to play nice with one

374
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Speaker 1: another in our field. The me the pathologist specifically will say,

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Speaker 1: look y'all, please bring the weapon to the morgue. And

376
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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that you do that because generally

377
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Speaker 1: the police will collect, say, for instance, the aforementioned dumbell

378
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Speaker 1: that was utilized, they collect that independent of the body. Now,

379
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Speaker 1: if you have a knife sticking out the body, first off,

380
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: you never remove the knife. You know that's something will

381
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: be collected at autopsy. But in this case, you would

382
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Speaker 1: have had these two elements of the dumbbell as well

383
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Speaker 1: as the edged weapon, this machete, So when you get

384
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Speaker 1: them back to the morgan the police can bring those along.

385
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Speaker 1: What will happen is that after the bodies are cleaned

386
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Speaker 1: or in this case, America's remains would have been cleaned,

387
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Speaker 1: you're going to look for patterns externally on the body.

388
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Speaker 1: What are the patterns going to tell you what? You

389
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Speaker 1: can have patterns with the dead, okay, but what the

390
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: dead do not produce are contusions because they don't have

391
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Speaker 1: The dead don't have the ability to hemorrhage. With these

392
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: bruises and with overlying abrasions. You can actually, let's say,

393
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Speaker 1: if you think about the shape of a dumbbell, many

394
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: dumbbells today have flat, flat surfaces all the way around

395
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: the circumference of both of the weighted ends, and so

396
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: if you're striking somebody with that, it will leave a

397
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: very distinctive pattern that's going to have edges and margins

398
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things. And what we will

399
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: do many times is take the alleged weapon and have

400
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: it immediately adjacent to a contusion and take a microphotograph

401
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 1: of that at autopsy, and it demonstrates kind of a

402
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: pairing up of these items, you know, where you can

403
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: actually see, Oh, okay, I can draw this conclusion. Now

404
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: I've got this kind of I don't know what it

405
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: would be, an octagonal shape on the end of it,

406
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: where it's got eight sides. Perhaps you can see the

407
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 1: edges in the contusion might very well match that pattern.

408
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,959
Speaker 1: That's important because when you get into court now you

409
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: have eyewitnesses that are saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw

410
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: this man, the accused, wielding this dumbbell at first, and

411
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: he's pounding her with it. I saw that he puts

412
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: the dumbell down, then he picks up this blade and

413
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: the next thing I know, I seemed chopping, you know,

414
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Speaker 1: as you stated, And you get the pathologist on the

415
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: stand and the attorney during the examination will say, listen, doctor,

416
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Speaker 1: we've had previous testimony here that said that they witnessed

417
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: this dumbbell being utilized to beat America as she's sitting

418
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: in the sea. Can do you see evidence of that

419
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: in the It's at that point in time. That's why

420
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: autopsy photographs are so important. We say, oh, yeah, well,

421
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: as demonstrated here, you can see we have the alleged

422
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: weapon here, this dumbbell. And do you see how these

423
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: margins kind of match this pattern? And he'll go into

424
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: great description relative to that. Here's one of the underlying

425
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: things that you have to consider. You might have con

426
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: usions related to this beating event, but what do you

427
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: have that demonstrates that she was still alive at the

428
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: time her decapitation took place? And that's key because Dave,

429
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and bury the lead here and say

430
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: that her cause of death is not blunt force trauma.

431
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: Her cause of death is listed as decapitation. So this

432
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: is going to require kind of a layered dissection of

433
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: the skin where these chop because and this is key

434
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: as well, because the witnesses described a chopping event. This

435
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: is not like we talked about horror movies just a

436
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: moment ago where you know, you think about these movies

437
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: where this monster will wheel the weapon in the head

438
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: will go flying off and one one. That's not what

439
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: happened here. You're talking about an individual that's using this

440
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: weapon in order to chop with So for every chop,

441
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: if she is still alive, guess what you're gonna have.

442
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: You're gonna have hemorrhage in that wound. There's a high

443
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: probability that every time this individual chops, they're not striking

444
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: the same edged weapon injury that they did initially. So

445
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: you might have a strike they draw back again confined

446
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: quarters and remember when we're talking about in a car,

447
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: and then they drive it home again and they might

448
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: be approximating that area, but they're never going to match

449
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: that up. So you get like the first strike maybe

450
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: you're looking at you don't. It's hard to tell the order,

451
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: but I can tell you this. If you have one

452
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: strike and you've got hemorrhage in that first area of

453
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: insulted tissue, you know that we're alive there. You got

454
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: any hemorrhage in the next one, Yeah, Yeah, there's hemorrhage here.

455
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: You get down to the third or the fourth, there's

456
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: no longer any hemorrhage, and then suddenly the head is

457
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: off the body. He's removed and she's dead at that

458
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: period of time. But this is the really gruesome part

459
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: about it. Unless she was unconscious and we know that

460
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: he struck her in the head and you could tell that,

461
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: I think based upon how extensive the hemorrhage was in

462
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: the brain from the Dumbell strike, she may dave have

463
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: had an awareness that this was happening to her. It's

464
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: so very troubling.

465
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: When everything is said and done, you have eyewitness testimony, obviously,

466
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: but you've also got the video that somebody took instead

467
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: of providing help, and I'm sure that helped the prosecution

468
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: as well. When everything is said and done in court,

469
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: his defense was that she was the troublemaker and she

470
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: was breaking up on it. I mean, it's crazy that

471
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: you actually have how do you defend this per you know?

472
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: But I know it's the court system anyway. Yeah, he's guilty.

473
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: The shocking matter is that there was any that we

474
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: had to go through all the court process. The man

475
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 2: chopped her head off in broad daylight after beating her

476
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: with a dumbbell. How is it possible that we have

477
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: to consider this?

478
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: I think what's really telling here, Dave, is the fact

479
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: that not only was he found guilty this alexis Sebaret,

480
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: not only was he found guilty, but he was Dave,

481
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: actually found guilty of premeditated I.

482
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: Was going to ask you about that, Joe. It was

483
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: first degree premeditated murder. How is it that they could

484
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: determine that when it took place in a car after

485
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: he beat her with a dumbbell? How can they go

486
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: with premeditation? That looks sounds like something that he got

487
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: out in the car and just started beating her and

488
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: then decided, Hey, I'm going to go ahead and do

489
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: more damage. She's already dead. Kind of thing.

490
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: He shut up with a weapon, not just one, but two.

491
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 1: Now you can say, well, he was in he liked

492
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: to exercise, so he had dumbbell. But did he have

493
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: a whole weight set in there? He had that one weight?

494
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: How did he get her into that car to begin with?

495
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: How is it somebody that's so threatened by this man,

496
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: somebody that they're looking to end this thing? She wants out?

497
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: How are you going to get her into a car.

498
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: I think that there's at least some indication that she

499
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: was wrangled into that car through force, perhaps that he

500
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: got her into that car by threat. And this, trust me,

501
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: this is not the first time he's put hands on her.

502
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: It's not. It's a sad tale that goes on every

503
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: single day, and it's as we speak right now, right now,

504
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: my friend, this is happening somewhere else right now in

505
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: this country, in multiple locations where you've got domestic abuse

506
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: going on. But he was in fact found guilty. I

507
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,479
Speaker 1: don't know if there's any solace that can be found

508
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: in that, but he's off the streets at this point

509
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: in time. And of course you can't bring her back.

510
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: You can't bring America back. This person that was beloved

511
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: and that loved obviously loved him in her own way.

512
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: She's stuck around him for so long. But I just

513
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: want to again close with this and just as a reminder,

514
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: if you or anyone you love is going through domestic

515
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: abuse at this point in time, there if you're having problems,

516
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: there's help for you. The National Domestic Violence Hotline can

517
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: be found. That phone number is one eight hundred seventy

518
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: nine nine seven two three three, or go to thehotline

519
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: dot org. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags