1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hi, guys, we are here 2 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: in Idaho, camped out right in front of the murder scene. 3 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to 4 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation 5 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: in series xeleven. We specifically wanted to come here at 6 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: night to see what the killer saw. And I've just 7 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: got to tell you, I'm completely blown away. It's so 8 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: different than anything you see in the photos or the 9 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: aerial shots we're seeing on TV. I just went up 10 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: this hill behind the murder scene, behind the murder house, 11 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: and I took a video on my phone and Jackie, 12 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: could you play the video? I just took a few 13 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: moments ago. I'm here behind the murder scene right now, 14 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: and you can see straight into the girl's place. This 15 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 1: is the parking lot we've been hearing about, right behind 16 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: their home. I mean it's right here. It's a lot, 17 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: a lot tighter. I'm a lot smaller than you think, 18 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: and just looking up here, I feel like you can 19 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: see straight into their home. These girls never had a 20 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: chance against a predator. They really did not. Guys, again, 21 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. I want to go straight 22 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: out to a special guest joining us. Joining me is 23 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, director of the Old Case Foundation. I found 24 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: him on the interview room on YouTube. Chris, it's exactly 25 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: like you were trying to tell me. I mean, this 26 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: guy would have to know exactly where he was going. 27 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: And the driving here is really tight. I'm surprised people 28 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: don't wreck just trying to pass each other going two 29 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: different ways, the driveway up past the murder scene and 30 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: circling around the murder scene to the back parking lot 31 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: that I'm talking about. It's very hard to imagine two 32 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: big SUVs passing each other. The streets are very narrow, 33 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: there's snow banks all around us, the pavement is slick 34 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: with frozen ice. But the thing is, Chris mcdonney, you 35 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: can look straight into their bedrooms. You can see everything. Yeah, Nancy, 36 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: And to think, you know, as we've been discussing on 37 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: your shelf for weeks now this, to think about the 38 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: twelve times his alleged phone was going off in that 39 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: environment and then kind of process a process that with 40 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: what is he doing? I mean, there's got to be 41 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: a fantasy process going on here of voyeurism at some point. 42 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it is, it's that close, isn't it? Yeah, 43 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: it really is. And I thought that there was a 44 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: copse of trees right behind their home. Well, it's not 45 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: really that much. I would say there's maybe seven or 46 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: eight spindlely trees. I mean, that is no impediment whatsoever 47 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: to a predator trying to look at the girls in 48 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: that home. We have been out walking the streets of 49 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: Moscow today and we went to the Mad Greek. When 50 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: we first walked up, and say, it was a somber atmosphere, 51 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: but it was really quiet and low key, almost peaceful. 52 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: And when we walked up, there is a let me 53 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: just say, a remembrance of the four victims out front 54 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: with candles and people are adding flowers and inside I 55 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: just sat there and listen to the music they were 56 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: playing and took it all in and I could just 57 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: see the girls working there. I saw their coworkers, and 58 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: I wonder how much their murders have torn the fabric 59 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 1: of this community. Also joining me is Cheryl McCollum, founder 60 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star 61 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: of Zone seven, a new hit Podcastyl it's very eerie 62 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: actually walking around this college town. Everybody's so peaceful and 63 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: friendly to imagine that is the backdrop for just incredible 64 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: violence right behind me. I mean, Cheryl, you must have 65 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: seen the video of the cleaners taking out bloody mattresses 66 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: right behind me. Yes, And I've seen your videos today. 67 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: And Nancy, what is so important about what you are doing? 68 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: Nothing takes the place of boots on the ground. And 69 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: when you were a prosecutor, that was one of the 70 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: things you were the best at. You would meet us 71 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: on seen you would talk to us about this is 72 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: the crime scene, but what's just over the other side 73 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: in those trees, what's to the left and to the 74 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: right and behind it? And what you're able to determine? 75 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: Where was his watch area? And that's something you and 76 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: I talked about week one. He watched, he studied, he thought, 77 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: And now you're tracing his steps and that is powerful. 78 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: Looking off to the side and right here is the 79 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: incline leading up to the back of the house. And whatso, 80 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,119 Speaker 1: how can I say this probative about what I'm seeing 81 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: is when you go to the front of the house, 82 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: you could be spotted. But when you start walking up 83 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: this incline to my right, nobody can see you. We 84 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: have been walking up and down in the dark and 85 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: there are apartments all around us. I guarantee you nobody 86 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: noticed us. Nobody could see us. It's not let up 87 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: at all. There are no street lights up there and 88 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: behind them. It's like a predator's dream platform, you know. 89 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: To doctor Angela Arnold joining me. She is a renowned 90 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela 91 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: Arnold MD dot com. Angie, I couldn't help. When I 92 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: was up there on that parking lot right behind this home, 93 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: I thought about a deer stand. I'm not a hunter, 94 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: but I've seen a lot of deer stands growing up 95 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: in the country. It's the perfect vantage point to look 96 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: down on an innocent prey that has no idea you're there. 97 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you can watch them from a deer stand 98 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: as long as you want and they'll have no idea. 99 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: And that's all I can think about there in that 100 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: parking lot. And he did it at least twelve times. See, 101 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: I mean, he was stalking these girls. It's so creepy 102 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: and so scary for all young girls going to college everywhere. 103 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: If you ask me, well, the mind of a predator 104 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: that would go up there and stare at them, and 105 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said at least twelve times. I caught 106 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: that in the PC probab will cause warrant after David 107 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: at least twelve times. And this is really interesting, and 108 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: everybody up in when you have a thought, Cheryl, you know, 109 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: at the very get go, I said, listen, this is 110 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: going to be an exhaustive task. It will take meticulous working. 111 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: But what they really need to do is a cell 112 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: tower data dump, which means you get all of the 113 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: cells that are around the area. Hold on, my papers 114 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: are flying away within a certain couple of hours. And 115 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: I now found out, and now find out they did that, 116 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: but they didn't see Coberger's phone. And now we know 117 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: it's because he left. He turned his phone off when 118 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: he was leaving his home, his apartment in Pullment, and 119 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: that has been verified by the cell phone records. So 120 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: he had this thing planned down to a t. He did. 121 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: But Nancy, that's going to come back to biting because 122 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: you and I always talk about patterns, patterns, patterns. How 123 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: often did he shut his phone off or put it 124 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: on airplane mode? I bet not very often? So why 125 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: that night during that time frame. That's a bad look 126 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: all day for him. Yeah, I've been thinking about a 127 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: lot of other defendants that turned their phone on airplane 128 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: mode just coincidantly at the time of the murderer, and 129 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: we're seeing that more and more and more. Now, is 130 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: that Chris McDonough or is that our friend Josh Fiology 131 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: jumping in? Yeah, it was Chris Dancy. Go ahead, Chris. 132 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: And to think is it possible that his intent was 133 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: to methodically monitor these poor victims. I wouldn't be surprised 134 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: if he took notes. Yeah, I would not be surprised 135 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: if Brian Coburger took notes, sat up there in his 136 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: car or on foot and took notes about this one 137 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: goes to sleep at this time and this one turns 138 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: off the light at this time. He probably watched them 139 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: changing clothes, making out with their boyfriends, cooking dinner. I mean, 140 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: I just wish you guys could be here and see 141 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: what I was seeing right behind. I look straight in 142 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: their windows. It's very voyeuristic, but it's a crime scene. 143 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: I feel very odd about looking in their windows, even 144 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: at a distance. A Fox Nation exclusive and international pop 145 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: star stripped of human rights? How does that happen? Easier 146 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: than you think? Join us for a deep dive into 147 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: Britney Spears's conservatorship Trapped, streaming now on Fox Nation Crime 148 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. It looks like across the street, 149 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking right at the Sigma Kai house. It's still 150 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: loot up for Christmas and it looks like they're having 151 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: a lawn party, which means they drag all the sofas 152 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: out onto the front yard and drink and party. I 153 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: just it's like, wellfe is just going on and this 154 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: crime Saint is right in the middle of it all. 155 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: Now joining me, guys is a new guest, our new friend, 156 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: Josh Fiallo. He is a breaking news reporter at The 157 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: Daily Beast and he has been investigating Coburger's background. What 158 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: if anything, Josh have you learned. Yeah, We've learned a 159 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: lot by talking to people who were close to Coburger, 160 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: a different phases in his life, and what I can 161 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: tell you it seems he really took on his current 162 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: personality during his senior year of high school in Pennsylvania. 163 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: Now two of his friends about Colms told us say 164 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: he was overweight and really down to earth in his 165 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: first few year of high school, but then once senior 166 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: year came around, he really thinned out, and then his 167 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: personality being but over the summer, Josh, yes, I guess, 168 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: so I guess he was. You know, he was overweighted 169 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: and kind of this weird kid the first three years, 170 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: and then senior year came, Hey, Josh, you know what 171 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: else I read? I read that because he was overweight, 172 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: that people would bully him. And don't get tuned up, 173 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, somehow that excuses crimes in the future 174 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: because he were bullied as attaining high school. Don't even 175 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: because I know where you're going to come from. So 176 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: I heard that, Josh, that he would be bullied about 177 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: his weight, and then over the summer leading into his 178 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: senior year, he got Dan as a rail r Ai 179 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: l was the quote I read, Yes, Mammy, he did. 180 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: He was thin as a rail when he came back, 181 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: and wasn't only his weight that was different, was his 182 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: higher personality. His friends told us that he now you know, 183 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: started taking boxing classes and now he was kind of 184 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: the bully, not just with strangers, but even within his 185 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: own friend group, and he would talk down to people, 186 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: including his friends and saying they weren't intelligent enough to 187 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: be his friend. And he would basically pushed his friends 188 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: to shun him from the friend group because he had 189 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: just became a completely different person from his senior year. Josh, guys, 190 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: Josh Fiello's joining us from the daily based you know, 191 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: doctor Angie, what do you think of that the bullied 192 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: turns into the bully? Nancy? Wasn't there also a history 193 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: of some heroine of us in him? Yeah, I've read that. 194 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: I don't know how much stock to put in it, 195 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: but I haven't read that he got on heroin high 196 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: school and then he got off of heroin and a 197 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: quick turnaround. And I find that hard to believe that 198 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: you can just stop cold turkey. But really, yeah, because Nancy, 199 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: people will turn People that have mental some mental illness 200 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: will turn to drugs. Heroine specifically will help you depreciate anxiety. Okay, 201 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, I know I'm out here freezing at my 202 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: rear end off and Moscow in front of this house, 203 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: but I can cut your mic even from here, so 204 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: don't start up about mental illness. The man is getting 205 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: a PhD in criminal studies. They asked him point blank 206 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: in court, do you understand what's going on? Do you 207 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: have any mental past? He's like, I'm fine, I understand. 208 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: So you said mental illness. You said mental illness being 209 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: a bully. It's not, oh, dear lord, and having guys. 210 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: Can you look over there? Look, I guess he's right 211 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: in that guy's I could see what he's cooking for dinner. 212 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: That's how close all of this is. I mean, I'm 213 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: just thinking of him, doctor Angela, looking right into these 214 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: girls kitchen and seeing everything they were doing, keeping notes 215 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: about what time they would come home, and this will 216 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: be in bed by this time. Although I'm starting to 217 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: wonder ahead, you know, worse than that too, Nancy. I mean, 218 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: he wasn't just taking notes. He may have every time 219 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: he did that, he was getting off on that somehow, 220 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: just the voyeurism was was bringing him some sort of pleasure. Okay, 221 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: it was it was stimulating him. Okay, I believe he 222 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: wants Okay, that's a far cry from what you said 223 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: mental illness. But I want to get back to what 224 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: we are seeing here and what is happening right now. 225 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: There are guards outside the house, and we just saw 226 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: them change shifts. The house is still being protected. Going 227 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: back to what Josh Fiolo was saying from the Daily 228 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: beast about his personality Jackie. We learned a little bit 229 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: more about his past, specifically from a woman that claims 230 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: she met him on a dating app. Let's start with, um, 231 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: see see is in cat Jackie? Um? We matched on 232 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: tender UM. We talked for a couple hours and then 233 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: he was like, hey, you want to go to the movies. 234 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: I was like sure, so, um we want the movies. UM. Honestly, 235 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: I don't even remember what movie we saw. UM. We 236 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: ended up going back to my dorm um and he 237 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: kind of invited himself inside. I thought he was just 238 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: going to drop me off, but that was not the case. 239 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: He kind of invited himself inside, and I was just 240 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: like okay, I went along with it. So he wanted 241 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: to watch another movie on Netflix, and I said, sure, 242 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: you can't trying to touch me, not like inappropriately, just 243 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: like trying to tickle me and like rub my shoulders 244 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: and stuff. And I was like, why are you touching 245 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: me or what are you doing? And he would just 246 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: like get super serious and he's like I'm not and 247 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm like you are though, and he's like I'm not 248 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: touching you kind of like trying to gaslight me into 249 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: thinking that he didn't touch me, which is weird. But 250 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: then I was like, I'm just gonna run to the 251 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: bathroom quick, and he was like okay, and then he 252 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: followed me to the bathroom, which I thought was kind 253 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: of weird, and I believe Jackie. He mentioned something about 254 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: she had breath year his hips. Could you play that part? 255 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: Like in the door and there was like a shared bathroom. Um. 256 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: He didn't go in with me, but like he stood 257 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: outside the door and like, I don't know. I just 258 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: thought that was weird. UM. And I was like, I 259 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: need to get this stude to leave, um, like just 260 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: not into it. UM. So I proceeded to pretend to 261 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: throw up um to get him to leave. UM. It 262 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: wasn't because I was scared of him or like thought 263 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: he would hurt me if I asked him to leave. 264 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: It was just mostly because I'm socially awkward. I didn't 265 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: know how to ask him to leave. UM, so I 266 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: thought I did UM. He ended up messaging me on 267 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: Tinder that he was going to go, and I was like, awesome, 268 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: my plant worked. And then about an hour later he 269 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: texted me and said I had good birthing hips. So 270 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: I never talked Okay, mccau director to the Cold Case 271 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: Research Institute an starves zone at seven. That's pretty bad 272 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: when the girl has to go in the bathroom and 273 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: pretend to throw up to get the guy to leave. 274 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: I mean, something was telling her to get away from 275 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: this guy. Yeah, it's that gut feeling. It's that, you know, 276 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: the hair on the back of your neck stands up 277 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: kind of feeling. She can say she wasn't afraid, but 278 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: she certainly wanted him out of there, to the point 279 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: that she was going to pretend to be physically sick. 280 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm glad she listened to her gut 281 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: because again, this guy shows persistent. He's not going to 282 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: give up. Even when you basically throw him out. He's 283 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: gonna take you back and say something like you've got 284 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: you know, good birth and hip. So again, you know, 285 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: it kind of shows where he sees women and how 286 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: he thinks of them, I guess. But you know, Nancy, again, 287 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: I want to go back to where you are and 288 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: how crucial it is that you were there, because people 289 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: are saying he had no connection to these people, he 290 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: never crossed paths with them, and I want to be 291 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: very clear, there is no way the families or the 292 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: family attorney can know that. Yet they could have crossed 293 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: path not electronically. He could have found a way to 294 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: go into the restaurant or to force them to meet 295 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: and make it look like it was, you know, happenstance. 296 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: But you know from being there there's one way in 297 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: and one way out. You don't just happen upon the 298 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: eleven twenty two King Roads. Now, once you're in these 299 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: tight little streets, and once you go up that hill, 300 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: you should have seen arthrod Dus. You're trying to back 301 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: out of that a few moments ago on the ice. 302 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: You know, when I was sitting in the Mad Greek today, 303 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: I was actually looking at the menu and they had 304 00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: something called Sydney. Wasn't it Kiera's Amazing Vegan Pizza? Something 305 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: like that. I would bet you anything, because you know, 306 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: he was a very staunch vegan. He was, you know, 307 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: crazy about it. I could just see him sitting there. 308 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: It was a very chill, laid back place. It was 309 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: not what I thought it was going to be, like 310 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: a loud and boisterous pizza parlor. It wasn't like that 311 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: at all. It was actually almost serene in there. They 312 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: had music playing gently. Everybody was very low key. I 313 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: could just see him in one of those booths, having 314 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: his vegan pizza and checking out the two victims that 315 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: worked there, maybe even following them home. It's not that 316 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: far at all from the scene. Back to Josh Fiollo, 317 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: Josh again, thanks for being with us. What more did 318 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: you learn about his background? Yeah, so kind of going 319 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: back to that TikTok's video, So that would have been 320 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: shortly after he graduated high school, right, that's whenever he 321 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: was in commun eighty college studying. I believe it was psychology. 322 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: So you know, we didn't learn a lot about that 323 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: from that period and our own reporting. So it's interesting 324 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: that that TikTok video kind of shine some light on 325 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: who he was at that point in his life. Probably, 326 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: and I mean think about it, Josh. The woman had 327 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom and pretend to puke to 328 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: get him to leave, and then she stayed in there 329 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: until he finally just left on his own, and he 330 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: checked her. I think that he was leaving. That's good much. 331 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: Can we talk about that, Nancy for a second. Yeah, 332 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: go ahead, Christie, you know, to your point a minute 333 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: ago into Cheryl's just to dovetail him too. That think 334 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: about him as you know, ego driven, because everything is 335 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: done in the dark with this guy. Hey, and he 336 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: this guy. Thank goodness, that young woman followed her gut 337 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: to Cheryl's point, and that should be a lesson to 338 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: all young women today that you're not wrong. You're never wrong, 339 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: all that gut because this guy sits back and he 340 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: was enjoying striking the fear in that young lady that 341 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: goes towards his personality that I'm sure the doctor could 342 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: get into and break down. But I didn't mean to 343 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: interrupt Josh. I apologize, but that was my point on that. Josh, 344 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: feel a free to interrupt him whenever you feel like it. So, 345 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: Josh Fiallie, what else did you learn real quick on 346 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: that point? How you know she's saw right away after 347 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: just one date, Like how she saw the red flags 348 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: right she knew she needed to get out of there 349 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: in the middle of the first date. And I found 350 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: it telling that, you know, all these years later, she 351 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: said today, the moment she saw his mug shot, she 352 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: recognized him right away. I mean, how many people do 353 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: you you know, recognize immediately who you saw one time 354 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: years ago? He obviously left an impression on her, which 355 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: is kind of scary thought that kind of goes back 356 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: to we see that stare in his eyes even in 357 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: the clips that we've seen since his arrest, and you know, 358 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: people in his paths have commented on that, Hey, Hey, Josh, 359 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: I want to I want to talk to you about 360 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: what you just said. You said, we the same pictures 361 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: and clips at him when you look into his eyes. 362 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, just before we went to air, 363 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: I pulled up a picture of him and he was 364 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: looking at the camera and I went look at his 365 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: eyes that look, there's just something. You're not the only 366 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: one that noticed that, Josh, Go ahead, Yeah, And it's 367 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: not just you and I, It's it's been other people 368 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: we've talked to from throughout his life. You know, whenever 369 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: he was in grad school in Pennsylvania, people commented, you know, 370 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: and interviews to us that he always had this stare, 371 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, and we see it even to this day. 372 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: And you know, just going back to a little bit 373 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: that we've learned about him, is he obviously thought that 374 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: he was the master criminal, who could know if he 375 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: was the one who did this crime. As cops believe, 376 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: and seems more and more apparent each day that he 377 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: thought he could do this perfect crime and get away 378 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: with it. And he studied criminology, you know, he was 379 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: studying under professors who written books about the psychology of 380 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: a killer. He thought he could get away with this, 381 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: and you know he was. We learned from his classmates 382 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: at Washington State where he was in the PhD program, 383 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: that he was always talkative in class and he's just 384 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: like everybody has said, he was a really smart guy. 385 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: But when it came time to talk about the Idaho murders, 386 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, the murders in Moscow, Idaho, right down the road, 387 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: this suddenly talkative, really bright guy in class, you know, 388 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: started to become quiet and he didn't want to talk 389 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: about that in person. And I found that really interesting 390 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: and telling you know another thing. I want to go 391 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: back to the she print, and that's where you're going 392 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: to come again and again, Cheryl. But to doctor Angie 393 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: joining us, I read a lot about people that knew him, 394 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: what they had to say. I was reading the comments 395 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: of his downstairs neighbor, one of them, and the neighbor 396 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: said that he would often come up and trying to 397 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: create conversations, and he would become very low guacious, very gregarious, 398 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: to the point the friend, I guess you could call 399 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: him the neighbor, would think it was going to be 400 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: late to where he was going. So he started avoiding coburger, 401 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: and they kept trying to get together, and I'm hearing 402 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: more and more that people just innately just avoided him. 403 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, psychopaths are very empty inside, okay, and 404 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: they're so that means that they are they're trying. They're 405 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: always trying to excite themselves or stimulate themselves, and they 406 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: can be they can be okay socially. But this guy 407 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: was going out of his way to make conversation with 408 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: people because he doesn't He lacks good boundaries. That's the 409 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: same reason he was trying to touch this girl that 410 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: he went on this tender date with. He lacks all 411 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: kinds of boundaries. He's trying to sit in in society, 412 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: but he knows deep down inside of himself that he 413 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: does not fit in. And so that's why the low 414 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: quacious talking to other people and trying to engage them 415 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: and asking them to go have coffee with him and whatnot. 416 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: He's trying very hard to be like other people, but 417 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: people find his actions weird because he is weird. He 418 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: really doesn't know. He doesn't have that sense that normal 419 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: people do of how to interact on a normal basis. Jackie, 420 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: could you get our cut two fifty six or ready? 421 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: It's Brian Flores from Fox thirteen. But I want to 422 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: lead up to Cheryl McCollum, Cheryl joining me from the 423 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl the sheeprint. I've been studying 424 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: the sheeprint a lot, and of course we need to 425 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: know more about it before I can be sure, but 426 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: it seems to me that the shoeprint corroborates or confirms 427 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: what DM the one of the two roommates that lived stated, 428 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: we believe it is a Van sneaker sheeprint because of 429 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: the diamond print on the bottom of it. Now, Coburger 430 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: was seen entering and leaving court one day and a 431 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: pair of Vans. I don't see how those could be 432 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: the same ones. But don't you know they tore his 433 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: apartment up looking for those sneakers because you know they'd 434 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: be blood on them if he kept them. But I'm 435 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: just thinking about what we can learn. We don't know 436 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: if the shoeprint was bloody in fact, but I don't 437 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: really see how it could be anything else but blood 438 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: for them to have noticed it. Well, there's a couple 439 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: of things. The footprint is near the home. The critical 440 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: thing is it's in the home, and it's in the home. 441 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: But the direction that it's heading, and that's what verifies 442 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: what she said, the direction he was going the same thing. 443 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: So now you have a shoe that he obviously liked. 444 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: That type of shoe. It wasn't an air Jordan, wasn't 445 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: a work boot, it wasn't a flip flop. So if 446 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: he's got more than one pair of those type of shoes. 447 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: But if I'm the primis there investigator and I cannot 448 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: find a bloody pair of Vans, I'm gonna take everyone 449 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: to show again this pattern. This is a shoe that 450 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: he likes. I've also at that scene got the size, 451 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: So now I've got, excuse me, the same size shoe 452 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: you wear, the direction of the shoe heading out of 453 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: the house, which is what DM says, And I've got 454 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: a pair that should be bloody. You're giving me a 455 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: horrible flashback of the j Simpson trial and the Bruno 456 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: Molly's I just want to get that out of my head, 457 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: where he swore he would never wear those ugly ass shoes, 458 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: And then there were pictures from the inquirers showing him 459 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: on the side of a football field that he was 460 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: covering the game wearing Bruno Molly's so bad flashback. Thanks 461 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: for bringing conjuring up that, Emma, Cheryl McCollum. Go ahead, 462 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: but the soul of that shoe is going to tell 463 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: you which van it is. So for example, if I've 464 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: got you know, the diamonds go in one direction or 465 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: they're in a different pattern than other shoes, I can 466 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: tell you exactly what van that is because the FBI's 467 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: got the whole database where I can go in there 468 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: and tell you precisely what shoe it is. So now 469 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: if I can go back through his debit cards and 470 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: credit cards and he has purchased that and get the 471 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: receipt to find out if he bought that van, and 472 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: I do wonder, are these vans he was wearing his 473 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: own shoes? I mean, they very well could be. It's 474 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: the same style, it's the same size. We think obviously 475 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: they were his shoes, so they very well could be. 476 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: I would get those shoes off his feet in a 477 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: minute and get them tested. Take a listen to Brian 478 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: Floras and our cut two five six. Now, in terms 479 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: of timeline, we are learning a lot more about that 480 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: as well. We understand two of the victims, Kaylee Ganalvez 481 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: and mass and Mogen, they went to get food at 482 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: a place called the Grub Truck in the early morning 483 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: hours of November thirteenth, roughly around one o'clock in the morning. 484 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: They came back to the home and around four in 485 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: the morning, Gonalves apparently was heard saying the phrase there's 486 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: someone here. It goes on to describe a person in there, 487 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: described as a skinny build, a man who was masked 488 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: in there. As well. Investigators also discovered a latent shoeprint 489 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: eventually that had a diamond shape similar to a van 490 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: shoes if you ever seen shoes like that. Another issue 491 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: beside the van shoes, two things sprang to mind. In 492 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: addition to the cell phone data of that police obviously 493 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: have put together haven retrieved also emerging now as video 494 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: from various homes. I guess it's their surveillance video. And oh, 495 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: speaking surveillance video, I'll circle back to that but Chris mcdonnah, 496 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: you told me about a home that was fifty feet 497 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: away from the house, the murder house, and I believe 498 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: it was that home that may have picked up sounds 499 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: coming from the house. You're right, it may not even 500 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: be fifty feet, Chris mcdonna. And when we talked about that, 501 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: Nancy wasn't interesting that immediately that's video camera was taken 502 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: down and collected right away by the police. And I 503 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: agree with you one hundred percent. I think that's going 504 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: to be the piece of evidence that puts the vehicle 505 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: coming in making that three point turn. And now that 506 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: you're you're there and you feel it, yeah, see it. 507 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: It's I've got to tell you, it's a feeling now 508 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: that i'm here, of immense heartbreak. There's just when I 509 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: was sitting in the mad Greek thinking about two of 510 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: the girls working there, it just it's heartbreaking. And when 511 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: you see the campus, I just think of all the 512 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: things they had to live for, Chris. You know, there's 513 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: their studies and the dances and the parties and the 514 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: whole future before them. And I look back at this 515 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: house is just like a blood bath. It's just such 516 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: a stark dichotomy. Chris. You know, and I'll go back 517 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: to your comment about the hunter. You know this individual 518 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: if he is the individual, and allegedly at this point, 519 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: you know he's innocent toil proven guilty, but he is 520 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: so again I keep saying this, He's so methodical. It's 521 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: almost as if this was a mission for him, like 522 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: a daily event in our lives. Let me throw a 523 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: question to everybody on the panel, Chris, something you just said, 524 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: I want to jump off of that. You know, he 525 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: would send out these questionnaires to felons, rapists, murderers and 526 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: say what were you feeling at the time of your crime? 527 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: How did you pick your victim? Then we find out 528 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: that he had tried to get on with the local 529 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: police department, and you know that would have made him 530 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: privy to crime scenes and violent crimes. I'm just wondering 531 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: if all of his interviews and his experiments and his 532 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: attempt to get onto crime scenes just wasn't fulfilling him, 533 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: and so he set out to do the murder himself. 534 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: Because there's no rape that we've heard, nothing was stolen, 535 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: So what more motive could there be other and the 536 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: desire to hunt and murder to see what it really 537 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: feels like. There's basically four reasons people are killed. Money, sex, revenge, 538 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: and crazy. Now you're about trial killing, well, that falls 539 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: into sometimes or it could fall into sexual. It depends 540 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: on what you see at the seeing. But again, just 541 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: because there's no sexual assault doesn't mean he wasn't self gratifying. 542 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you something else. You look at Ted 543 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: Bundy works at the rape Crisis Center. This is a 544 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: need that he was feeling for himself. There was nowhere 545 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: online where he could get what he wanted, and that's 546 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: to hear from the people that actually did it. This 547 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: guy didn't want to hear from the victims. This guy 548 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: wanted to hear from the killers. And that is critical 549 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: for us to understand. He wanted to know how did 550 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: you feel before? During and asked, and at some point 551 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: he wants to experience them, you know himself. This is 552 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 1: not new to us. We see people all the time. 553 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: They can't, you know, fulfill their own fantasy in their minds, 554 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: so they turn to porn. Porn's not enough, They go 555 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: to a prostitute. The prostitute's not enough. They go to 556 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, another victim that is completely unsuspected. It has 557 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: no idea this guy's around. This is what I see 558 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: in this guy. Okay, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists. We're 559 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: trying to explain it in layman's terms, but the questionnaires 560 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: and the desire to go to crime scenes, it just 561 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: wasn't cutting it anymore if in fact, this is the killer. 562 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: So he set out to find out what it really 563 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: did feel like to commit a martyr. Well, sure, Nancy, 564 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: because again he is empty inside. Okay, he's completely empty. So, 565 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: as Cheryl just said, none of these things will fulfilling 566 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: him enough. It's also very interesting to me, Nancy, and 567 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: I think we should point this out on the show 568 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: that you know, he chose to study with a woman 569 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: named he picked out who he studied with. He studied 570 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: with doctor Catherine Ramsland, and she's written like sixty books 571 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: on different killers and stuff. He wanted to get in 572 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: there and study with this particular person about the and 573 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: be very close to the murders. I happen to think 574 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: that he wants some sort of notoriety from this. I 575 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: think he wanted to connect with some of these different 576 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: killers that have been written about, and he wants some 577 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: notoriety out of this. To Josh Fela joining us in 578 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: the Daily Beast, how does what we're spending out right 579 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: now this theory fit with what you've learned? You know, 580 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: everybody's kind of comment said that he was a real 581 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: smart guy, but he was also there was always something 582 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: about him that that was different, and like I said, prior, 583 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: you could see it in his eyes. So for me, 584 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: I can sell from what we've learned about how he 585 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: repeatedly went to the crime scene with his phone thinking 586 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: that you know, cops would never even think it's him, 587 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: to that one night where he thought to turn off 588 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: his zone he went to the crime scene, you know, 589 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,879 Speaker 1: or left it at home or put it on airplane mode. 590 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: He thought that he was, you know, the killer expert 591 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: who was going to go when cops are going to 592 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: check you know, the phone data and we're not going 593 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: to see his phone anywhere in sight, And he thought 594 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: he took all the other precautions, He did everything he 595 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: needed to do in order to make sure it never 596 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: got back to him. So, you know, for me, I 597 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: think that all these years of studying criminology and studying 598 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: under professors who wrote, you know, tons of books about 599 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, the art of killing, or what goes on 600 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,439 Speaker 1: in the mind of a killer. I think this all 601 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of turned into him, you know, killing in November, 602 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: and quite frankly, I'm not sure that had he not 603 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: been caught, this would have been his only instance. As 604 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: from what we've learned since his arrest. You know, your 605 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: words are very chilling to me, Josh, but I can't 606 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: say that I don't agree with you crime stories with 607 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. We also learned that his extradition hearing, defendant 608 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: Brian Coburger did something very extraordinary. He actually spoke to 609 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: some of the law enforcement at the extradition hearing and 610 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: one thing he said, and I quote, it's really sad 611 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: what happened to them. I mean, just let that sink 612 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: in for a moment. This guy, who we believe compstibli 613 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: murdered four people, said, that's so sad what happened to them. 614 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: Back to doctor Angela Arnold's story that he's just imitating 615 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: life because there's nothing inside. He's saying or doing anything 616 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: he thinks a normal person would do. So, Chris McDonald, 617 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: what I was trying to get back to with you, 618 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: as in addition to the cell phone data placing him 619 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: in various locations at the time of the killings and 620 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: that morning later on video surveillance has emerged of a 621 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: white melanchra speeding by. You can see it through bushes 622 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: and trees, and I believe that's why cops are still 623 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,280 Speaker 1: begging for information as they should be to help shore 624 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 1: up their case. Yes, and it's going to be really 625 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: interesting to find out what else they have in relationship 626 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: to that behavior. You remember, every behavior has a purpose, 627 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: and for him to be methodical through this, I really 628 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: feel that he's forgotten the idea of that the crime 629 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: sheen is going to show just how disorganized though he 630 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,800 Speaker 1: really was, and that all of this rejection that he feels, 631 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, potentially from society, women, the grudge, the resentment, 632 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: all of that I think has built up to this 633 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: quality where he felt that he was going to be 634 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: the deliverer of justice, as we've talked about in the past, Nancy. 635 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: And that's going to be as undoing here because those 636 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence like the car, like hid Mary turning, 637 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: are going to start surfacing. I don't know if you 638 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: guys could hear it, but just in the background, right 639 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: across the way, there is a steeple of some sort 640 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: on campus, just right across the street from campus, and 641 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: it was chiming the time, and I was just thinking 642 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: about is that night went on and those chimes were 643 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: going every hour after the girls were murtyred and he 644 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: had gotten away seemingly scott free. I wish you could 645 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: feel the feeling here. How would you describe it? Guys? 646 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: It's kind of erie, erie and very very quiet. It's 647 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: almost like when you walk through a graveyard or you 648 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: go into an empty church like it. Yeah, like it 649 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: is frozen in time. Everything is still out, people still 650 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: have at Christmas decorations. It's like everybody just left the 651 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: moment these murders happened. I want to go back to you, Cheryl. 652 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,839 Speaker 1: I really believe police have to shore up their case. 653 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 1: They've got a short up. You know, you think you've 654 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: got DNA. They could easily the defense could easily argue, Hey, 655 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: I went to a gun and knife convention and I 656 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: looked at a lot of knives and a lot of guns. 657 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: That was obviously one of them. That's not mine. I mean, 658 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: we've got to find the murder weapon. We've got to 659 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: find more DA right behind me in this home or 660 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: in his Elantra. What do they need to shore up 661 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: the case, Cheryl, Well, let's talk about some really good 662 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,439 Speaker 1: police work we've already seen. They had his attract number 663 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: by November twenty fifth. Then the campus police officers spotted 664 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: it said yep, it's here. They had his name before Thanksgiving, 665 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: so they were already in full swing, even though they 666 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: were telling the general public, Hey, we need your help. 667 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: They need your help. Once they went into his apartment, 668 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: I guarantee you there was a plethora of evidence. I 669 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: bet he had maps, I bet he had writings. I 670 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 1: bet he had journals. I bet on his computer he 671 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: had done all kinds of searches. He was not going 672 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: to be able to hide this, Nancy. Just like his 673 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: old line questionnaire, can you imagine his topics from when 674 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: he got his bachelor's and masters to his PhD. Roger, 675 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: He's done nothing but right about this. And one thing 676 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: that I bet they're doing is they're collecting all those 677 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: papers from all those teachers and they're talking to all 678 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: of them. And the topics that he chose are going 679 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: to be powerful. But one thing I'm going to be 680 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: real interested in are the topics that were rejected. You know, 681 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: another thing about his meticulous nature. I wonder if he 682 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: would get rid of all all the notes, all the writings, 683 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: all the computer searches. Of course, anything on computer is 684 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,879 Speaker 1: going to be in the cloud forever. You can't get 685 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: rid of that. But I'm just wondering how much they'll 686 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: actually be able to retrieve what they found in his apartment. 687 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: You know he was also a TA teaching assistant. Did 688 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: he have an office at work? I would come through 689 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 1: that when the fine tooth comes. And do you believe, 690 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,479 Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, that he could actually get rid of all 691 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: traces of blood? Now you heard DM say he was 692 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: dressed all in dark clothing with a mask over his 693 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: nose and mouth. Do you think he got rid of 694 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: that clothing? Do you think he got rid of those 695 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: van sneakers? Even the socks? Remember the blood that was 696 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,799 Speaker 1: on O. J. Simpson's socks. Could he would he think 697 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: to get rid of every sintilla of evidence? Chris? You 698 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: know he certainly would think about it. The probability of 699 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: some type of transfer of some type of blood or 700 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: any type of trace evidence that you cannot you get 701 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: away with him. You've seen thousands of cases like that 702 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: in your court time. Yeah, I just don't see how 703 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: he could get rid of all of it, because if 704 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: he wore those clothes into the car, I don't care 705 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: if you got rid of the clothes, how could he 706 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: get rid of everything in the car? And isn't it correct? 707 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: Joining me, guys, is our friend from the Daily Beast, 708 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: Josh Fiollo. Josh, it's my understanding that surveillance on the 709 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: family home in the Poconos, the Coburger family home, they 710 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: were out there twenty four seven. They had to be 711 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: because they spot him at four am dumping the family trash, 712 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: his trash into the neighbor's receptacle. I think it was 713 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 1: there that they observed him meticulously cleaning his Elantra over 714 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: and over, inside and out. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And 715 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: you know what, I think this is one of the 716 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: reasons why it took so long to take him into custody. 717 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: Who cleans their car outside in the Poconos when it's 718 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: snowing and it's freezing kind of like it is right here. 719 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: Who would do that? Somebody who has something to hide? 720 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: And another their detail that was picked up while they 721 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,919 Speaker 1: were surveiling him, you know in Pennsylvania, was who takes 722 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: their trash out in the middle of the night. First 723 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: of all, who takes her trash out in the middle 724 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: of the night. Second of all, who takes her trash 725 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:12,800 Speaker 1: out in the middle of the night and then takes 726 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: it to their neighbor's yard and puts it in there. Ben, 727 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,359 Speaker 1: that's somebody that tells me you're trying to hide something. 728 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: And I think that the reason they were surveiling him 729 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: so much in Pennsylvania was maybe once they got into 730 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 1: his apartment, or they weren't getting the DNA and the 731 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: evidence they needed back in Pullman back in Moscow, and 732 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: they were able to whenever back in Pennsylvania because he 733 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: had no clue either on him. I'm just wondering how 734 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 1: right in front of the murder house, and I'm just wondering, Cheryl, Chris, 735 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: doctor Anji, Josh jump on, if you have any ideas 736 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: where else could they retrieve DNA or hair one hair 737 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: of his at the scene? Because Cheryl, you'd not been 738 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: on a lot of homicide saints. Have you ever noticed it? 739 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: There's always hair in the blood at a murder saint. Always, Nathew, 740 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: there's gonna be evidence a whole lot of places that 741 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure we're not thinking about. They got evidence off 742 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: the sheets, they got evidence off the floor, they got 743 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: evidence off the victim's clothing. There's gonna be a transfer too, 744 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: you know, the lockmark principle. He left his own hair, 745 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: possibly at that scene when the victims were fighting. We 746 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: know some had defensive wounds. They could have his skin 747 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: under their nail. You know, you just never know. But 748 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 1: I know this. The amount that has already been in 749 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 1: the arrest Affidavid was just enough to get him arrest. 750 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 1: They have so much more. Yep, you know, one more 751 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: thing before we close out for tonight. I'm not so 752 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: sure you got to think about in the probable cause 753 00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: affidavit and anything we have heard from police. I don't 754 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: know how it ever got started that the victimus were 755 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: actually asleep in their beds. Now we saw the bloody 756 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: beds being carried out right behind me, so we do 757 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: know that the murders took place on the bebbit. I 758 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: just don't see how you can be looking at a 759 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: TikTok at four o two I think it was four twelve, 760 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: thank you, Kelly. And then he's leaving. Was he leaving 761 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 1: at four twenty six? Four twenty five? I don't think 762 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: that they were all asleep, Cheryl Well, the arrest have 763 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: a David says that Zannah was on the floor, so 764 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: we know that. But upstairs on the third floor, if 765 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: they were in the bed asleep and under the covers, 766 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: you remember the Jeffrey McDonald crime scene photographs, you could 767 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,279 Speaker 1: tell several of them were asleep. You can tell even 768 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: if they're murdered, that they were asleep prior to that. 769 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,720 Speaker 1: But I do believe that Ethan and Zannah were awake. 770 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,439 Speaker 1: I do believe that. One thing that is really hard 771 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: for me. I was just gonna go to you, Chris McDonagh's, 772 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: when I see how close these apartments are to the 773 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 1: murdered seemed right behind me, and one of them seemingly 774 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: picked up whimpering. Just imagining those girls whimpering in that 775 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,360 Speaker 1: house behind me as they were stabbed dead. I'm telling you, 776 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,360 Speaker 1: if this is not a death penalty case, then we 777 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: should just abolish the death penalty because we might as 778 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,840 Speaker 1: well not even have it. To think what these girls 779 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,680 Speaker 1: and Ethan went through. And don't you know they are 780 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: trying to enhance that sound right now, so one day 781 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: they're going to play it for a jury. We'll be 782 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: back here again tomorrow. I hope you can join us 783 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories. I wish you could be with 784 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,319 Speaker 1: us right now and see what we're seeing and hear 785 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: what we're hearing. But I'll try my best, my very best, 786 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,399 Speaker 1: to relate it to you as best as I can. Goodbye, friend,