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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session one of the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girl's podcast. October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was important for us to revisit

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Speaker 1: this topic as Black women continue to be disproportionately impacted

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Speaker 1: by domestic violence. For this conversation, I was joined by

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Speaker 1: Dr Shanita Brown. Dr Brown is a licensed professional counselor, speaker, educator,

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Speaker 1: and trainer that foster's transformative and empowering dialogue about instrument

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Speaker 1: partner violence and mental health wellness. With over ten years

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Speaker 1: of experience in the clinical mental health field, she is

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Speaker 1: a servant leader dedicated to breaking the silence and empowering

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Speaker 1: changed to foster the next generation of advocates and leaders.

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Speaker 1: Dr Brown and I chatted about how you can recognize

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Speaker 1: the signs of domestic violence, why it's important to understand

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Speaker 1: domestic violence in the context of power and control as

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Speaker 1: opposed to anger management, how you can support loved one

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Speaker 1: who may be in a relationship with an abusive partner,

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Speaker 1: and she shared tons of incredible resources for anyone who

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Speaker 1: would like additional help. If you hear something that resonates

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Speaker 1: with you while listening, please be sure to share it

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Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag tv G

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Speaker 1: in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, Dr Brown, Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: having me not the drawings. Definitely an honor and privilege

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Speaker 1: to be here with you. Yeah, I'm really happy you

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Speaker 1: were able to join us because I think we really

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Speaker 1: need to, you know, continue having this conversation around domestic violence.

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Speaker 1: And I think what happens a lot of times is

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Speaker 1: that people aren't even always aware in their own relationships

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Speaker 1: that there may be a presence of domestic violence. So

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Speaker 1: can you tell us how somebody might even be able

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Speaker 1: to recognize this. Yes, that's a great question. So what

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Speaker 1: really defines this abusive relationships and tactics? It's really it's

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Speaker 1: a common thread of power and control. So it's this

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Speaker 1: intentional pattern of behavior used by an abuser when one

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Speaker 1: partner tries to maintain how we control or another partner. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so that looks like someone who may be extremely jealous, right,

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Speaker 1: who a partner may be trying to check the cell phone,

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Speaker 1: the social media or email, or insisting that a partner

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Speaker 1: texts when they arrive or when they leave for work

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Speaker 1: every day, or when you may hear um. So when

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Speaker 1: saying I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around their partner,

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Speaker 1: isolation from your family and your friends, always feeling like

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Speaker 1: they're afraid UM, or appearing to be afraid UM, when

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Speaker 1: they feel like they can't go to work, they can't

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Speaker 1: go to school, they can't go to social events because

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Speaker 1: they're afraid that it may upset their partner. These are

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Speaker 1: really controlling tactics, and these are red flags of domestic violence.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's really important that you gave us

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Speaker 1: such a variety of ways to recognize this, right because

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes people just think it's physical, right, so

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Speaker 1: the person is hitting them when really, obviously, abuse can

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Speaker 1: be all of these things that you've named plus more.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure right. So this domestic violence, and sometimes you

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Speaker 1: may hear intimate partner violence, and so really, and it

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Speaker 1: can happen to anyone, joy, it can happen to all

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Speaker 1: cultures on backgrounds. People are married, people are unmarried, heterosexual,

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Speaker 1: people in the LGBT community, wealthy, the poor, religious, not religious,

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Speaker 1: all ethnicities. But the key takeaway here, like you're saying,

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Speaker 1: it's this power and control, and it's physical violence, emotional violence,

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Speaker 1: and and that emotional excuse me, emotional abuse is one

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Speaker 1: where they're solid wounds, right, you can't see the emotional scars,

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Speaker 1: and that caused us is just as much damage as

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Speaker 1: physical abuse, or sometimes more because that is lingering um

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Speaker 1: that legal effects of the emotional abuse. So can you

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Speaker 1: go in a little more depth about the emotional abuse

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Speaker 1: of what that might look like. The emotional abuse is

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Speaker 1: that when people may say that I feel worn name calling,

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Speaker 1: they begin to think that what they are hearing, they

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Speaker 1: begin to think that that's part of who they are.

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Speaker 1: It leads to mental health challenges, It leads to anxiety.

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Speaker 1: This irrational thought, patent at least a depression. It leads

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Speaker 1: to maladaptive for unhealthy coping strategies such as trying to

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Speaker 1: substant abuse, things of that nature. So that emotional abuse

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Speaker 1: and emotional rules is really damaging, and I find that

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Speaker 1: it's much more damaging than physical abuse m M. And

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing it would also be probably a little harder

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Speaker 1: to recognize. It is are hard to recognize because when

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Speaker 1: you have a conversation, you can't see that rules. So

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Speaker 1: if you're with someone, you may be sitting to someone

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Speaker 1: or maybe working, or have a family member who is

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Speaker 1: enduring domestic violence, you can't see that physical scar. But

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Speaker 1: it's that name calling that's to belittle it, you know,

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Speaker 1: putting somebody down that they are enduring every day and

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Speaker 1: it could be for years that you really endure emotional abuse.

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Speaker 1: And it isn't what people say, the physical abuse, at

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Speaker 1: that emotional abuse that they are dealing with every day

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Speaker 1: that is damaging just one psyche. So Dr Brown, you

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Speaker 1: also mentioned because I think something that also happens is

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Speaker 1: that people aren't quite sure whether a behavior is their

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Speaker 1: partner like really caring about them and their concern or

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Speaker 1: is it abuse? So you mentioned like having to text

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Speaker 1: when you leave or when you get back from work

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Speaker 1: in the evening, and so I can see some people

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Speaker 1: saying like, oh, that is just my partner caring about me.

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Speaker 1: So how would you know whether something like that isn't

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Speaker 1: a sign of abuse or whether it's just your partner

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Speaker 1: being concerned. This is a great question because you want

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Speaker 1: to think of what's healthy and what is unhealthy. Right,

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Speaker 1: So again we have to examine what is that threat,

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Speaker 1: that pattern of abusive and power and control behavior, that

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Speaker 1: intention of pattern. You have to tell me who you're

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Speaker 1: talking to, or if I didn't text you, why you

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Speaker 1: didn't text me? Or hey, it's it's one thing to

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Speaker 1: say text me when you get to work because I

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Speaker 1: care about your a bit, right, But there's a difference

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Speaker 1: of saying somebody that's very controlling you need to text

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Speaker 1: me every day or this is gonna happen, or you

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Speaker 1: need to text me the day because I'm very concerned,

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Speaker 1: or this may not happen. So there's that power. Is

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Speaker 1: that abusive intentional pattern of behavior that's the difference between

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Speaker 1: text and every day or just check it. So you're

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Speaker 1: really looking at, like you said, the pattern and the pattern.

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Speaker 1: If this is the only thing that's happening, then it

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Speaker 1: could just be like a cause for concern. But if

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Speaker 1: this is something that's present with the name calling and

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Speaker 1: maybe some physical abuse, then you can more clearly see

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Speaker 1: the picture absolutely putting someone down because they hit in

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Speaker 1: text or you know, making someone feel bad about themselves

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Speaker 1: or you know, well you're crazy because you didn't do this,

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Speaker 1: or you didn't text me, or things are that you know.

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Speaker 1: So it's this pattern, right, You're gonna find that pattern.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of times people can't see the pattern,

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Speaker 1: and you have to put it out. You have to

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Speaker 1: ask the question, what are you seeing? All right? And

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Speaker 1: then when you ask the question, what are your experienced it?

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Speaker 1: What's happening in your relationship? And then people begin to say, wow,

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Speaker 1: I never thought that this was a form of domestic violence.

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Speaker 1: So Dr Brown, hasn't been your experience that people will

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Speaker 1: maybe come into counseling with you to maybe figure out

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Speaker 1: like how they can work on the relationship with their partner,

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Speaker 1: and then you're able to kind of show them this pattern. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so I find quite often when I am working with

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Speaker 1: clients and my initial intake and doing a very thorough assessment,

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Speaker 1: you know what's happening in your relationship. You begin to

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Speaker 1: ask the questions, what are you experiencing? Do you feel safe?

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they don't feel safe, and then we asked what

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Speaker 1: are your experience and then you have what I find

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Speaker 1: very helpful is showing people the power and control will,

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Speaker 1: which was developed by the Dloof model, which helps with

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Speaker 1: people looking out that at the core of the will

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Speaker 1: is power in control, right, and so you have coercion,

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Speaker 1: you have threats, you have intimidation, you have economic abuse,

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Speaker 1: and when people begin to look at the power control,

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Speaker 1: it resonates with them. Let me say, wow, I am

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Speaker 1: experiencing them, and ask the question what are you experiencing

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Speaker 1: that you see on that will? Oh yeah, they do

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Speaker 1: put me down, or they do control what I do,

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Speaker 1: or they control what I wear, or they limit my

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Speaker 1: outside involvement, or they're very jealous. So I do feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm walking to eggshells. And then it clicks that

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Speaker 1: light bulb goes off for them and say, wow, I

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Speaker 1: never know this was domestic violence. All this time, I

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Speaker 1: just thought they loved me or they were trying to

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Speaker 1: show me that they were concerned, and I never thought

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Speaker 1: that this was domestic violence. It is very hard, so

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Speaker 1: you have to have tools to help people see that

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Speaker 1: what you're describing isn't healthy. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I

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Speaker 1: would imagine that there would be even more difficult for

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Speaker 1: someone who maybe has come from a home where they've

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Speaker 1: seen this with their parents or you know, with their

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Speaker 1: loved ones growing up, and they don't necessarily know that

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Speaker 1: all relationships don't function in this way. Absolutely, the first relationship,

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Speaker 1: with first image of relationship starts at home, so that

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Speaker 1: sets up the relation of template for people, and so

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Speaker 1: they begin to think this is normal, this is all

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Speaker 1: I've ever known, this is what I've seen, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: not the joy. But when they come in saying I

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Speaker 1: want some help, I want to feel safe, I'm not

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Speaker 1: really sure. I don't really want to in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: But maybe let's talk about this anger management and you

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Speaker 1: begin to educate them and they really understand that this

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Speaker 1: is not an anger management issue, that this is an

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Speaker 1: overall pattern of abusive and volid behavior. Then they begin

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Speaker 1: to really rethink what they're in and sometimes they're not

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Speaker 1: ready to leave immediately, and that's okay. Yeah, can you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the distinction between this

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Speaker 1: not being an anger management issue in the domestic violence.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I want people to really understand that

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Speaker 1: that abuse is not an anger management issue. Right. So

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Speaker 1: people who are experiencing an anger management issue, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: go off from their boss, they're gonna go off on

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Speaker 1: their cousin and their friend or cowork or random person.

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Speaker 1: But abuse is carefully targeted at one person, right. So again,

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Speaker 1: it's that overall pattern of abusive and invalid behavior and

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Speaker 1: that is not an anger management issue. That's the difference.

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Speaker 1: They're controlling behaviors that are really the biggest red flags

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Speaker 1: that you look out for in relationships. That is such

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Speaker 1: an important distinction, Dr Brown, because it also makes me

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Speaker 1: think about how often you will hear people who have

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Speaker 1: stories of being abused by their partners, but then everybody

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Speaker 1: else in their life is like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: How they're so nice, they're so charming, they're so x

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Speaker 1: y Z. Right, But it really goes to this crafting

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Speaker 1: of a character where nobody else can kind of see

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Speaker 1: what's going on inside the home. Absolutely, and again, so

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Speaker 1: it's that's why domest of violence is not an anger

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Speaker 1: management issue, right, It's this control, this pattern of behavior,

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Speaker 1: and you begin to talk to someone you'd be able

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Speaker 1: to recognize in here they can tell you, well, it

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Speaker 1: happened during this time, it happened again, it happened this time,

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Speaker 1: it happened this time. Where they always put me down,

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Speaker 1: or they make me feel guilty, or sometimes they make

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Speaker 1: me feel good about my children, or you know, they

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Speaker 1: say that the abuse didn't happen, or they say that

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Speaker 1: sometimes I call something to to make the abuse happen,

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Speaker 1: and that's never the case. But it's that pattern of behavior,

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Speaker 1: very that pattern of control invavior. Mm hmmm. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of what you're talking about is gas lighting, right,

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Speaker 1: So something that has kind of gotten more talk in

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Speaker 1: I think recent months. Um, it's coming up in where conversations.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about what gas

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Speaker 1: lighting is and what that looks like in the relationship. Yes,

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Speaker 1: for gas lighting is when you know in a partner

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Speaker 1: would make the other partner the thing that they're crazy,

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Speaker 1: that it really didn't happen, that there's something that they're

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Speaker 1: the cause of it, and maybe minimizing what's happening, and

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Speaker 1: that is really the form that power of control, right,

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Speaker 1: that pattern begin to think that maybe maybe this didn't

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Speaker 1: really happen. No, I didn't really hear that, and they

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Speaker 1: begin to think, well, at the while that you know,

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Speaker 1: this really isn't abuse, or I am crazy, Well there

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Speaker 1: something wrong with me, or I'm making it up, and

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Speaker 1: really there's nothing really wrong with them. But that's the

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Speaker 1: manipulate behavior, right of gas light, and what happens in

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Speaker 1: that situation when one partner begins to think that, hey,

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Speaker 1: I am somehow contributing to this, or I am crazy,

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Speaker 1: or you know, something is really wrong here, or nothing's

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Speaker 1: really wrong with me. Yeah, and I want to hear

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Speaker 1: if you can dock around a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: like the pattern or the course that this takes, because

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Speaker 1: it usually does not start off so obvious, right, So

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Speaker 1: an abuser would necessarily start off by saying you can't

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Speaker 1: go to your mom's on the weekends or whatever. It

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Speaker 1: usually starts much smaller and then progressive. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about what that progression looks like. Yes, So,

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Speaker 1: during the research of domestic violence, and you have heard

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Speaker 1: the term of you make her the cycle of abuse

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Speaker 1: or a cycle of violence, and recent research has changed

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Speaker 1: that there really isn't a cycle of violence. There really

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Speaker 1: isn't in one right, because no one gets into a

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Speaker 1: relationship to really say that they're in this cycle that

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Speaker 1: somehow contributing to it. But what happened? You may see

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Speaker 1: that an abusing may be nice at one point, but

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Speaker 1: you may say, like the honeymoon phase, and then it

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Speaker 1: begins to escalate, and then you may see a little

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Speaker 1: bit more. Just call it this guy's gas light in

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Speaker 1: or this form of psychological manipulation and then maybe tagving

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Speaker 1: it having some sort of planting this doubt and the

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Speaker 1: victim of suvivor's mind of what they are experiencing maybe

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Speaker 1: then begin to question their perception of the relationship. Um,

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Speaker 1: then it begins to add a little bit more fuel

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Speaker 1: to it, and then it becomes very explosive, and then

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Speaker 1: it repeats itself. So on one hand, it is a cycle.

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Speaker 1: On one hand it isn't because it's mainly this pattern

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Speaker 1: of abusive behavior, if that makes sense, Dot joy, So

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Speaker 1: what is the cycle piece? That is not quite accurate

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Speaker 1: the actual term of the cycle of violence? Okay? Got you?

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Speaker 1: So so the pattern is pretty consistent, but calling it

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Speaker 1: a cycle isn't the most consistent anymore? Got you? Okay? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And so are there any warning signs or things that

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Speaker 1: you should be looking out for kind of in the

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Speaker 1: beginning phases of a relationship that may kind of tip

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Speaker 1: you off that this person may be abusive. A partner

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Speaker 1: who is extremely jealous, um, the isolation, putting you down,

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Speaker 1: I would say, making a partner feel bad about themselves.

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Speaker 1: Some of the name call it intimidation, destroying property somehow

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Speaker 1: saying that, well, I wouldn't have done this if you

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Speaker 1: would have just listened to me. Mm hmmm um. That

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Speaker 1: difficulty taking accountability for any of their acts. Absolutely, it's

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Speaker 1: so important for people to understand that that abuse is

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Speaker 1: never your fault, right, it is never anything that you

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Speaker 1: have done. You know, it is important for the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: or the abuser. Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably. They're

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Speaker 1: held accountable for the actions, and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: that doesn't happen, and then we end up what we

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Speaker 1: call a lot of victim blaming. What do you do?

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Speaker 1: What were you wear it? Or And it's never the case.

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Speaker 1: And we have to really change that too, placing the

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Speaker 1: accountability on where it belongs. And that still a beansy

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Speaker 1: and I want to hear your thoughts like a bround

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Speaker 1: about why you think we jump to the victim blaming

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Speaker 1: so often, Like, why is it so hard for us

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Speaker 1: to believe that people could be being abused? I think

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Speaker 1: me personally, I think because overall in society, we have

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Speaker 1: this culture mindset where men are in control and they're

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Speaker 1: the dominant um gender and women don't have a voice,

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Speaker 1: and so I think women aren't believe and so we're

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Speaker 1: always finding ways to look at what are women doing

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Speaker 1: or what have partners doing in the relationship, and I

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Speaker 1: look at a way to trying to change that story.

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Speaker 1: So it's important to look at what we're saying first.

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Speaker 1: What is our response, like, really start when you hear

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Speaker 1: about the situation, how do I respond in a way

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Speaker 1: that is not victim blame it? You know that you

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Speaker 1: know if itsal can never do anything to call someone

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Speaker 1: to hit someone. It's important to look at how do

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Speaker 1: we hold each other accountable, and how we hold that

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Speaker 1: perpetrated accountab before their behavior. M And I think it's

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Speaker 1: deeply rooted in our society. I really think it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you already alluded to this a little bit, Dr Brown,

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Speaker 1: But another complicated part of this is, you know, someone

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Speaker 1: does realize that they are in inter abusive relationship, and

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Speaker 1: then maybe it's trying to figure out whether they're going

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Speaker 1: to stay in this relationship or not. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of times on the outside looking in right again, people

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Speaker 1: are quick to say or why don't they just leave?

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Speaker 1: Why don't they just get out? But of course this

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Speaker 1: is a very complicated, complex kind of a decision. So

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Speaker 1: can you talk with us a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: that decision making process might look like? Um, dor joy,

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Speaker 1: this is a very good question, and thank you so

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Speaker 1: much because we are so quick to judge people. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have done that. I can't believe there is still

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Speaker 1: in that I would have been gone right. But with

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Speaker 1: domestic violence is so complex. There's so many reasons why

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Speaker 1: a victims stay, and maybe children involved for economic reasons,

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Speaker 1: they're actually afraid. I mean, there's a lot of fear here,

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Speaker 1: and and then if they think about leaving, that risk

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Speaker 1: of their lives become more at risk, um for death.

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Speaker 1: So we're thinking about financial support, children, party reasons, being

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Speaker 1: the breadwinner, having nowhere to go. Um. Actually, love is

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Speaker 1: the reason why some people may stay. They think this

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Speaker 1: is actually loved, so it is not something so quick

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Speaker 1: where we can pull them out Hey girl, Hey god,

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Speaker 1: let's come on and get out this relationship. It is

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Speaker 1: very risky, it is very deadly when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: leaving an abusive relationship. So that has to be thought out,

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Speaker 1: It has to be planned, and it has to be

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Speaker 1: um take. All things have to be considered when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about leaving an abusive relationship. It is not easy.

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Speaker 1: Is the research still consistent in talking about how dangerous

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Speaker 1: it is? Like that is the most dangerous time when

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous partner decides to leave, and it takes

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Speaker 1: seven attempts. Say that takes seven attempts to try and

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Speaker 1: leave before they have successfully left that relationship seven attempts.

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Speaker 1: Want people to know it is not an easy situation,

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Speaker 1: and so I applaud people with they are trying to

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Speaker 1: leave the situation or trying to take those steps. And

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Speaker 1: you have to connect with people and connect with community

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Speaker 1: resources who are trained to do this work and safety planet.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm, So can you talk about that a little

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Speaker 1: bit like, Okay, let's say I have made this decision

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Speaker 1: to try to get out of this relationship. What kinds

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Speaker 1: of things or resources do I need to connect with

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out what my plane is going

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Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, So it's one talking to UM and

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Speaker 1: domestic violence agency or people who are trained in safety planning.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to a trusted family member who will provide

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Speaker 1: support and not additional victim blaming. Are UM talking to

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Speaker 1: faith based communities that will offer support versus trying to

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Speaker 1: tell you the state in that relationship. Right, So you

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Speaker 1: want to connect with people who will understand what you

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Speaker 1: are going through and can help you safety plan right

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Speaker 1: if you have children, collecting documents such as your birth certificates,

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Speaker 1: so security cars, have a money in a separate account. Um.

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Speaker 1: So all these takes time, having a night bad pack

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Speaker 1: for your children, impact for yourself, and having a plan

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Speaker 1: in place when you're getting ready to leave that situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely connected with the domestic ALLUS agency, Yeah, to help

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Speaker 1: with safety planning. And most UM counties have this, correct,

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Speaker 1: Like we'll have some kind of agency that is designed

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Speaker 1: to help with this type of effort. Absolutely every state

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Speaker 1: has a coalition for the best of allance and sexual

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Speaker 1: arities and then connecting you with that agency. Yeah, for

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Speaker 1: safety Planet, that would be the first place I was

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Speaker 1: in and working with it to the survivor connect to

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Speaker 1: them I'm doing the work as well, but also connecting them.

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Speaker 1: We work in collaborative. Collaborative is a collaborative effort and

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Speaker 1: safety planet, and it may take several sessions and may

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Speaker 1: not get done in that one and their succession is

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Speaker 1: gonna take several until that person to say I'm ready

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Speaker 1: mm hmm, right, having them empowering them to make the decision.

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Speaker 1: And how can friends and family be supportive at this point? Right?

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Speaker 1: This is another great question too, because oftentimes I hear

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Speaker 1: people say, my family don't get me on my pastor

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Speaker 1: told me to stay. And so one we have to

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Speaker 1: always be aware of the complexity of domestic violence that

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Speaker 1: it is not easy for a person to leave. We

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Speaker 1: want to always be concerned about their will being about

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Speaker 1: the safety. So I would tell people, if you're concerned,

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Speaker 1: say hey, I'm concerned about your will being instead of

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Speaker 1: trying to say you need to leave. Right. And so,

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Speaker 1: if you're telling them you need to leave, you're doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing that an abuser is doing. You're telling

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Speaker 1: them you're control of them, but walk with them. I

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Speaker 1: am here to support you. I may not know what

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Speaker 1: this is like, but your your well being is a

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Speaker 1: concern for me. I love you, I care about you.

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Speaker 1: Here is the hotline. I am here to walk with

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Speaker 1: you when you already those that's very supportive to helping

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Speaker 1: someone in that situation, getting them flyers or brochures, connect

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Speaker 1: them to the eight hundred hotline or to a shelter,

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Speaker 1: to an agency. But never go in or lead in

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Speaker 1: with trying to tell somebody what to do in that situation,

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Speaker 1: because you become part of what they're already dealing with

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Speaker 1: is a controlling situation. Yeah, and I have you know,

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Speaker 1: heard people talk about like it is just really important

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Speaker 1: for you to be there and to let them know,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you ever decided to leave, I got

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Speaker 1: you right like so so that you that even maybe

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Speaker 1: family and friends can become a part of the safety

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Speaker 1: planning if there is a goal time right and just

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Speaker 1: be there to listen, Just to be there to listen

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Speaker 1: and be available. I'm here, non judgment or environment, create

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Speaker 1: a safe space. Yeah. So, Dr Brown, can you talk

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Speaker 1: about what UM therapy might look like for somebody maybe

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Speaker 1: who is either deciding whether they're going to leave the

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Speaker 1: relationship or maybe somebody who has left the relationship, Like

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Speaker 1: what kinds of things might you be working with them

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Speaker 1: on in therapy. It just depends on how they show

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Speaker 1: up in in that session, and it shows up what

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Speaker 1: what what stage they are, And they could be that

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about leaving or I didn't know I'm dealing

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Speaker 1: with this and now I've learned the term. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of times again it goes back to educating education

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Speaker 1: on what domestic violence is right and then provided them

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Speaker 1: with the tools such as the power and control will

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Speaker 1: helping them to identify that things that they have been experiencing.

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Speaker 1: It resonates with them and then it may talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, and they may be dealing with anxiety, they

431
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: may be dealing with depression, and may talk about, so,

432
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: how have you been coping with this domestic violence? You

433
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: may begin to hear things such as when I begin

434
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: to drink more or I'm doing some other things that

435
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: are not so helpful. So it just depends on how

436
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: they show up um in the session and when they're

437
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: ready to leave the relationship. But when they are ready,

438
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: we begin to talk about safety planet and that is

439
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: several sessions in regards to taking that step to safetyple

440
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: at it. And I think that's important to pay attention

441
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: to as well, because I think some people may be

442
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: worried that if they go to a therapist and they

443
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: are in a domestic violence situation, that the the whole

444
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: therapy will be focused on getting you to leave the relationship.

445
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: That is not the case, at least it should not

446
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: be the case. It should not be what it depends Okay,

447
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 1: not the joy. It depends, right, So let's let's let's

448
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: let's let's let's pause. It depends. So if if someone

449
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: isn't an active I would saying, if they're in a

450
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: situation that we should always be concerned about the safety

451
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: and well being. Right. So if someone say I'm afraid, right,

452
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: or it's happened to my children, then it begins to

453
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: you know, work with them, or should we have the

454
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: report right or reporting issue, thinking about the will being

455
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: of the children or walking them through. So it just depends.

456
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: Also leaking that person to a shelter. I have plenty

457
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: of times I've said, let's talk about ways to talk

458
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: about your safety, right, and sometimes they would say, I'm

459
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: gonna go to the shelter, and the shelter will work

460
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: with them. But it's always thinking about the safety first

461
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: of that particular client when they're presented right, of course,

462
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: actually they said. And so sometimes it's helpful to talk

463
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: about relational patterns, right, the upbringing and what did you

464
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: see a lot of times, you know, I've spent working

465
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: six months with people just thinking about looking at relationship

466
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: relationship patterns, and then they get to the point, okay,

467
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: what do you want for yourself? You know, and making

468
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: no uh, I may have seen this, um, maybe this

469
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: is all that I have known, but I'm ready to

470
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: change that narrative. I want better and understand that they're

471
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: not to blame for that. So it's it's just a process,

472
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: you know, it just it's just a process. So it

473
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,959
Speaker 1: just takes one day at a time, one session at

474
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: a time. And so when people are ready to leave,

475
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: you know, we are empowering them. We are given them

476
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: the tools to do that and make that decision, empowering them.

477
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: M hm. And I'm curious also kind of going back

478
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: to your comments about the emotional abuse, right, because I

479
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: would imagine that that would be some significant work probably

480
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: in therapy, when people have been made to believe or

481
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: not even trust their own thoughts, you know, because there

482
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: has been gas lighting or you know, really taking a

483
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: hit on their self worth so what kind of work

484
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: might you be able to do with them in therapy

485
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: to to really target some of those concerns. Yes, and

486
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: so I have utilized a variety of blends of um

487
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: kind of behavior therapy, really helping with the thought patterns,

488
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: irrational thinking. And also I have used some relational culture theory. Right,

489
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: we're just really helping them with understanding growth, falster and

490
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: relationships and understanding how, especially for African American women, our

491
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: systems of oppression have contributed to multiple experiences of oppression

492
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: and discrimination, of racism, how they're more at risk for

493
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: experience and domestic violence. For example, if you're gonna say

494
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna refer them to an agency, it's a possibility

495
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: that they may get discriminated against because of intersecting idemities.

496
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: And these are real things that we have to understand

497
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: why Black women as such at risk for domestic violence

498
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: when it comes to systemic oppression and racism and the

499
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: complexity of it and how domestic violence shows up for

500
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: them compared to a white woman. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And

501
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: I know in working even just with students, you know,

502
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: there is sometimes a hesitation, like if there's going to

503
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: be a report made or you know that you have

504
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: to look at that too, because it feels like a

505
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: betrayal almost of the community, like, oh, I'm gonna put

506
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: this person in jail or something even that becomes a

507
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: bigger priority than their own concern and welfare. Right, And

508
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: that goes back to the result again of historical oppression

509
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: the present day racism, and how African American women may

510
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: be less likely to report or seek kill a warance

511
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: of discrimination, in the negative stereotype of how African American

512
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: men um have been treated, dealing with police brutality. These

513
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: are all factors and that can discourage a woman from

514
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: seeking help for the mess of allance, and then that

515
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: contributes to the high rate of the mess of allance. Right,

516
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: They're not going to report. I don't want that to happen.

517
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to be another I don't want to

518
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: contribute to how black men are treated because of what

519
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: I have been doing. Right, so they somehow take that

520
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: responsibility on they don't report. M Yeah, So what are

521
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: some of your favorite resources related to this topic? Dr? Brown?

522
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: For anybody who needs to read more about this or

523
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: is interested in learning more about this. One of my

524
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: favorite resources the book I help again goes back to

525
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: the education piece is a book called Why Does He

526
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: Do That? By Lundy Bangkoft and I have found that

527
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: book very enlightenment, but also on my clients and people

528
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: that I served, have found that, oh my god, this

529
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: book has really enlightened me. Has really opened up my

530
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: eyes to what I am experiencing. And there's a name

531
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: for it now, right, I didn't know this, but we

532
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: have to understand the shame and the stigma attached to

533
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: domestic violence, the same as we have with mental illness,

534
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of shame and attached to it.

535
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: So but when they begin to read the book, or

536
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: when we have the power and control, will and say, hey,

537
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: now I feel educated, Now, I feel empowered. Now I

538
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: can begin to proceed with taking my voice back. But

539
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: a lot of times it's about education, it's about reading,

540
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: it's about helping you understand what you have endured. Right,

541
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: So that's one of my very first books that I

542
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: go to. And then one of my favorite podcasts, I

543
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: would say, is A Date with Darkness by Dr Natalie

544
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: jones Um and she is a licensed therapist. And then

545
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: you know who specialized in working with people trying to

546
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: hear from relational abuse and her work with narcissists and

547
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: narcissistic behavior. And I find that as a good tool

548
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: for people to really get education on tips and how

549
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: to heal and develop healthy relationships. You know, we are

550
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: all relational beings and we all desire relational contact and connections,

551
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: but I think it's important to learn about patents and

552
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: learn how to have a healthy relationship. Perfect. Any other

553
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: resources or websites that you want to share. Yes, A

554
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: website that I go to is a National Center of

555
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: Violence against Women in the Black Community also known as

556
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: u JIMA, and I find that very helpful because they

557
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: have a strong voice on looking at and being um

558
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: taking a stand on violence against women in the Black community.

559
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: And also I would say a Call to Men, which

560
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: is an international Violence against Women eventual organization that really

561
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: promotes healthy manhood and and then violence against women and girls.

562
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: So these are two resources. And if about a wealth

563
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: of information for on the African American community. Yeah, perfect,

564
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: And where can we find you online? What's your website

565
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share? Yes,

566
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: my website is www dot Dr Shenita Brown dot com.

567
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: And you can find me on Twitter. Dr She need

568
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: to Brown, Facebook and Instagram as well and adopted a

569
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: Brown perfect and of course we will include all of

570
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: that in the show notes. Thank you so much for

571
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: joining us today, Dr Brown, I really appreciate it. Thank

572
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: you so much, Dr Joy for having me. It's been

573
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: a pleasure. I'm so glad Dr Brown was able to

574
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: share her expertise with us today. To find out more

575
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: information about her and her practice and the resources that

576
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: she shared, check out the show notes at Therapy for

577
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash Session one, and please don't

578
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 1: forget to share this episode with two people in your circle,

579
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: as you never know who needs to hear the information,

580
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: and be sure to share your takeaways with us either

581
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: on Twitter or in your stories using the hashtag tb

582
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: G in session. Remember that if you're searching for a

583
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: therapist in your area, be sure to check out our

584
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory.

585
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic

586
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: and meet some other sisters in your area, come on

587
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where

588
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: we take a deeper dive into the topics from the

589
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: podcast and just about everything else. You can join us

590
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c

591
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: C and don't forget to check out our online store

592
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: where you can grab a copy of our guided affirmation track,

593
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: break up Journal, or your favorite Therapy for Black Girls

594
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: T shirts, sweatshirts or mugs. Grab your goodies at Therapy

595
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash shop. Thank you all

596
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

597
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.

598
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: Take it care um what witch