1 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. 2 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: This is Col's Week in Review with Ryan col Klahan. 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Here's Cal. Hey, everybody another Oh, I can't even remember 4 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: what we call these segments, but it's an interview. You're 5 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: gonna love it. Fascinating guest, Chris would ideally you've done 6 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: your homework and have listened to Mark Kenyon's podcast with 7 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: with Chris Trout Unlimited. He's the CEO. He's got a 8 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: fascinating history in the conservation space and with the Roadless 9 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: Rule in particular. This you're always gonna learn something new, 10 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: So don't don't turn the channel if you think, oh boy, 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: I've already heard this. I promise you haven't. And on 12 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: top of that, I guess we should just start off 13 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: by saying thank you so much to Chris and tr 14 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: Out Unlimited for just kicking so much ass on the 15 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: public land sell off that was It seems like forever ago, 16 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: but it was only a couple months down the road, 17 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: and uh, here we are and another another chapter of 18 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: just wanting some common sense management of our federally managed 19 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: public land. But Chris, thank you so much for being 20 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: such an outspoken voice from from the get go, in 21 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 1: the beginning over there at tu On on public land. 22 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: Thanks Brian, and thank you for all and all and 23 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: media for all of your advocacy on behalf of public 24 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: lands and conservation and hunting and fishing. 25 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: Oh it'd be pretty simple if it was just a 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: couple of us that could move the needle, right, but 27 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: that's not not have games played. We need everybody involved. 28 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: That's right, That's exactly right, you know, especially hunters and anglers. 29 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: This is one of these issues where I feel like 30 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: for decades, really and I can say this now because 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: I'm old enough to say this, but hunters and anglers 32 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 2: were taken for granted by one political party and ignored 33 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: by the other. And it's just an incredibly powerful constituency 34 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: that is slow to rile, but when it raises its voice, 35 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: people take notice. And my hope is that we saw 36 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: that happen on the public land sell off. Sportsmen and 37 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: women were amazing how they came to the fore and 38 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: make clear that that boneheaded idea should be killed, and 39 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: it was. And this is kind of the spawn of that, 40 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: you know, it's a little more arcane and archaic. People 41 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: are kind of like roadless rule what what's that? But 42 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: if I could summarize in just a sentence why the 43 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: roadless rule matters, it's because it provides habitat that provides 44 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: the best hunting and fishing in America period. 45 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: And it provides that. 46 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: How so, you know, we have the luxury in America 47 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: of having this incredible network of public lands, including one 48 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: hundred and ninety three million acres of National Forest System lands, 49 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: which are multiple use lands, which are you available for 50 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: logging and roading and oil and gas development and hunting 51 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: and fishing and picnicking and everything else that you can imagine. 52 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: That's why they're called multiple use lands. But there's about 53 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: fifty eight million of fifty eight and a half million 54 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: of them that simply don't have roads, and they're typically 55 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: five thousand acres or larger in landscape, and that's a 56 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: lot of land, and it's a lot of room to 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: roam around. And you know, before we started taping, we 58 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: were talking about I have a place in West Virginia 59 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: that's right alongside a road and it is a great 60 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: meat bucket to hunt whitetail because whitetail like edge habitat, 61 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: and you know, they're not looking for these remote landscapes. 62 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: But if you're a mule deer hunter, or you're an 63 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: elk hunter, or you care about fishing for native trout 64 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: and salmon, there is no better place to go than 65 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: into these backcountry roadless areas. In some cases they're wilderness areas. 66 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: The difference between roadless areas and wilderness areas. Wilderness areas 67 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: is they just were designated by Congress and they're protected 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: as wilderness. You know, where man is a visitor but 69 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: who cannot remain. And roadless areas they're typical multiple use lands. 70 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: We've done all kinds of commodity development. But what we 71 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: don't allow in these roadless areas today by virtue of 72 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: that roadless area conservation rule is we don't allow for 73 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: road construction. So it provides some backcountry habitat to provide 74 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: a refuge for elk and mule deer and other big 75 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: game species and especially trout and. 76 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: Sham and by and large like that. I have to 77 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: bring this up. It's a little mixed. But you know, 78 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: when I was, I guess I would have been just 79 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: getting out of high school. We had protests in Missoula, Montana, 80 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: which was on its way out of being a logging town. 81 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: I would say most of the folks in Missoula probably 82 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: wouldn't have described it as a logging town at that point. 83 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: But when the uh do you recall the road list 84 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: today a jobless Tomorrow campaign? 85 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: You know it's it's it's back up in here somewhere. 86 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: But we had UH protesters on the Higgin Street bridge 87 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: stop a logging truck and a kid tied himself off 88 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: to it and then repelled off the side of the 89 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: Higgin Street bridge and dangled there to stop the logging trip. 90 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: I don't remember that. 91 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you no, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. But 92 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't by magic that the roadless rule 93 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: came to be. You're right there. There are people on 94 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: both sides of this issue, and through a lot of 95 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: coming to the table and having a discussion over and 96 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 1: over again, that's how the two thousand and one roadless 97 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: Rule came to be. And in my mind right now, 98 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: that's what is missing. And it's like, if it's happening, 99 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: it's happening behind a curtain, behind some closed doors in 100 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: a room nobody gets to see. And that's really why 101 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: I had y on today. Is the public comment period 102 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: is open, and folks are leaving comments at the Federal 103 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: Register a very short window. I think we are fifteen 104 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: days left right now. 105 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it goes to September nineteenth, is the 106 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: official deadline. 107 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: What's happening with these comments? Are like, I know they're 108 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: supposed to be reviewed, but where's the power lie right now? 109 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: And are we able and capable of having a discussion 110 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: on this at this point? 111 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: It's such a good I mean, there's so many facets 112 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: to that question I want to talk about. I was 113 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: asked by the Montana Logging Association to come and talk 114 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: to their annual meeting around the time of the incident 115 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: that you describe, although I don't remember that specific incident, 116 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: and you know, Montana sticks in my mind because we 117 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: just did an analysis in ninety three percent of the 118 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: summer range for ELK in the state of Montana is 119 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: in roads series, for example, just to give you a 120 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: sense of how important they are. What they are not 121 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: important for though? Is logging right? The reason I assure. 122 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: The economics do not support this logging conversation, and it's 123 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: been driving me crazy that that's what's dominating the roadless 124 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: conversation because I cannot find how it is true. 125 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: It's true. No, it's ryan. No, you're absolutely right. It's dissembling. 126 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: It's a canard. It's not real. So it's a ghost 127 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: dance from forty years ago when they did matter. And 128 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: the reason it mattered forty years ago was because the 129 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: Forest Service back then was really good at going into 130 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: these remote landscapes and building roads and cutting those trees. 131 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: And the fact is we did that. They're gone now 132 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: we've cut jack Ward Thomas, one of the chiefs who 133 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: retired in Missoula. Actually that seems to be a hot 134 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: bed of places for chiefs to retire. You've got a 135 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: couple more live there now. But he talked about how 136 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: the Forest Service cut the face of the National Forest, 137 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: meaning they went into all the easy to act they 138 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: they got all the timber that was the most accessible 139 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: and of the primary stuff the stuff that hasn't been 140 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: harvested that remains, it's not economical. It's in high elevation 141 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: areas with highly erosive soils, very steep slopes. Those roads 142 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: have a tendency to fall off the hillsides. What's typically 143 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: below the hillside a stream, and the timber values aren't 144 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: high and so there's just there is no demand in 145 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: the lower forty eight anyway to get into these backcountry 146 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: areas for logging, and to suggest otherwise demonstrates and ignorance 147 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: of the reality on the ground. And by the way, 148 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: one of the reasons that truth in advertising here. I 149 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: worked at the US Forest Service when the roadless rule 150 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 2: was developed, and I worked for the guy who was 151 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: the chief at the time they called the CEO of 152 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: the Forest Service the chief. And one of the reasons 153 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: we did it was that every single timber sale in 154 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: the United States that was proposed in a roadless area, 155 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: every single one lost money and was litigated and held 156 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: up in court. So we were we were spending all 157 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: of our time burning. 158 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: With the litigift in that. 159 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: It would have been it would have been typically it 160 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: was the environmental community who were litigating these roadless sales. 161 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: And eventually what happened is the in the Congress back 162 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: in two thousand, ninety nine, two thousand, we're going way 163 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: back here, the Congress came within a vote, a single vote, 164 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: of passing a law that would have eliminated the Forest 165 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: Services road budget. And so you know, for those of 166 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: you listening in home, you're like, well, who cares? You know, well, 167 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 2: part of the road budget for the Forest Service was 168 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: actually maintaining the three hundred and seventy thousand mile road 169 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: system that already existed on the landscape, and that road 170 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: system was falling apart. We had eight and a half 171 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: billion with a b. We had an eight and a 172 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 2: half billion dollar backlog on maintenance of just the existing 173 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: road system, And we thought we were taking a very 174 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: conservative approach by saying, well, you know, we should be 175 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: taking care of the existing network of roads that we 176 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: have to continue to provide public access before we get 177 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: into these controversies. So we can lose a bunch of 178 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: money to sell timber at a loss, to sell a 179 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 2: public asset at a loss. Owing by the way, it's 180 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: wildly unpopular in the local community. It just the roadless 181 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: rule we thought represented a common sense approach to doing 182 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: a better job of taking care of the initial investments 183 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: that the Forest Service to the United States govern taxpayers 184 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 2: had made in this massive road system, largest road system 185 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: in the world, before we tried to pump roads into 186 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: these backcountry areas, so we could lose a bunch of 187 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: money on timber sales that were wildly controversial. That was 188 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: basically why we did throughout this rule. 189 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: And we aren't hearing where the funding is going to 190 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: come from. I've heard some blanket statements from some elected 191 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: officials that basically suggest that, oh, Ryan, the free market 192 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: economy is a magical thing. And I'm thinking, even with 193 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: government assistance of some sort, we're not going in and 194 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: mechanically thinning fire fuel out of the wildland urban inner 195 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: because nobody wants to pay people to go do that. 196 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: There's no there's no market for that. You know, hot 197 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: fast burning fuel that you can't make a two by 198 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: four out of. Maybe you can make and kill it 199 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: rill fuel out of, but we don't have the industry 200 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: built in close enough proximity to these places to have 201 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: that be viable in a free market economy. So I agree. 202 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: I'd rant and rave on on the regular podcast on 203 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: this topic enough to where the audience should know, uh 204 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: how I feel about this, and ideally have done some 205 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: of their own pondering and research. So if it's not 206 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: about the logging, what's it about? 207 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: So it's I mean, you're right, the free market is 208 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: an amazing thing, and if we actually operated well, I 209 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: want to be careful here because I have a lot 210 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: of friends in the Forest Service and they're not. They're 211 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: not The Forest Service is not pushing this rulemaking. This 212 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: has been imposed on them from above the Forest Service. 213 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: This is a this is a fight from thirty years 214 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: ago that they do not want to rejoin. There's not 215 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: a forest supervisor in the country that's licking their chops 216 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: trying to get into those backcountry areas, those highly erosive 217 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 2: soils to build a highly engineered road that's going to 218 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: fall off the hillside in a few years so they 219 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: can lose money on a timber sale. Oh an engender 220 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: a ton of controversy. It just is not. That's that's 221 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: a fight from a long, long time ago. 222 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: Well, find me a fire science lab in the country 223 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: that thinks this is a worthwhile venture. 224 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: And you won't because I was going to get to 225 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: the fire piece of this. Eighty percent of all the 226 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: fires in the nation, and these are Forest Service statistics, 227 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: eighty percent of all the fires in the National Forest 228 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: System occur within a half a mile of a road, 229 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: and eighty five percent of those fires are caused by people. 230 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: So presumably in most cases, right you would think that 231 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: roadless areas are not adjacent to communities of people because 232 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: they're remote. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't some 233 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: landscapes like I think about, like you know, the Coutiny. 234 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: There are some communities up there in Montana that have 235 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: roadless areas adjacent to them, and in places like Idaho, 236 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: and we specifically try to unlimited and me personally worked 237 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: on a carve out or rule making for Idaho back 238 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,479 Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine, which allows for more permissive 239 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: treatments in communities that are directly adjacent to roadless areas, 240 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: and there are a precious few of those, Ryan, it's 241 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: the vast minority. 242 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: If listeners want to pause real quick. It is extremely 243 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: easy to get this visual because of our friends that 244 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: on AX you can pop up the roadless and waste 245 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: more time on on X, you know, dreaming about hunting 246 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: and fishing spots like I do. That's yeah, but very 247 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: easy tool and very pertinent to this conversation. So sorry 248 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: to cut you off there, Chris, but. 249 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's okay. But the other piece of 250 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: this is that in the twelve Western States, it's like 251 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty percent of all the hazardous fuels treatments 252 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: that have happened over the past ten to fifteen years. 253 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: They've happened within roadless areas, and so the hazard. What 254 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: I mean by hazard is fuels treatments, because I know 255 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: that's kind of a wonky term. Is almost all of 256 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: the forests in the Western United States evolved with typically 257 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: at least east of the Cascades, typically with frequent fire. 258 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: West of the Cascades it was more infrequent, big catastrophic 259 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: fires every couple hundred years. But east of the Cascades, 260 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: in places like Montana and Idaho, you're talking about these 261 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: are systems that need fire. They evolve with fire, and 262 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: the Forest Service, starting in the twenties, after some horrible fires, 263 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: big fires that killed a lot of people, like the 264 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: man Gulch fire, they instituted a policy of all fires 265 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: out by ten am the next day. And so we've 266 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 2: got these systems that they need. 267 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: The marketing magic is known as the ten Am rule. 268 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: The ten Am exactly, the ten Am l and smoky 269 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 2: Bear was created. And you know all that, you know, 270 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 2: only you can stop fires. Well, these forests need fires, 271 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: and because they haven't burnt, what's happened is fuels have 272 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: built up over time. So instead of having you know, 273 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: fifty five stem trees per acre, maybe there's two hundred 274 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: and fifty five. And then those are more prone to 275 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 2: insects and disease, which are exacerbated by things like a 276 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: changing climate. And so the Forest Service has actually done 277 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 2: a really good job of going into roadless areas and 278 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: treating those systems, doing the kind of thinning. Now, your 279 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: point that you made about the free market is a 280 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: good one. Much of that timber isn't salvageable. It's not saleable. 281 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: You can't make two by fours out of it. It's 282 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: typically smaller diameter stuff. But the Forest Service has done 283 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: a really good job I think over the past fifteen 284 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 2: twenty years of going into these areas, treating them for 285 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: ecological purposes, taking out whatever commercial value they can, which 286 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: often isn't very much, but still doing right by the 287 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 2: landscape and right by hunters and anglers and taxpayers. And 288 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: I don't know why the administration is pushing this rule. 289 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: I think this is less of a logical. It would 290 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: be one thing if they had said, look, a quarter 291 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 2: century has gone by, you know, when this rule was promulgated, 292 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: Chris Wood had a big you know, I had a 293 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 2: big curly hair. I had brown hair and it was curly, 294 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: and it's neither any longer. And we've learned some things, 295 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: and so we want to apply those things that we've 296 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: learned in fire science and fire behavior and how to 297 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 2: protect better protect human communities from fire in this new 298 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: rule making trial limited would be we would be a 299 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: fulsome participant in that conversation. And in fact, that's what 300 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: we're going to encourage the administration to do in this 301 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: comment period that ends September nineteenth. But that's not what 302 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: they're doing. They're they're they're just kind of throwing the 303 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: baby out with the bathwater. So I don't think this 304 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 2: is I think this is more of a religious argument 305 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: for the advocates of doing this than it is a 306 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: logical argument, because fire science doesn't justify this, the economics 307 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: of the timber industry certainly don't justify it, And it's 308 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: really just kind of hard to figure out what the 309 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 2: justification is other than sort of a you know, a 310 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: derec liatory agenda that isn't necessarily based in either ecologic 311 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: or economic sense. 312 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: Just go back to the first Trump administration. I went 313 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: for folks in the fire world, this is a famous name, 314 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: and if you're a quail hunter, this is a famous name. 315 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: But went over and hung out at Tall Timbers right 316 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: there on the Florida Georgia line and and did some 317 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: prescribe burning and talked fire science. And they for folks 318 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: who don't know, this would be considered like the you know, 319 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 1: like the Ivy League of Fire Science. Really they are 320 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: an authority. They educate and and send students out into 321 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: the world and and then it's a it's a circular loop. 322 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: Those students come back and they changed, and they adapt 323 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: and they continue to learn and apply fire science on 324 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: the landscape. And you know, so just four and a 325 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: half five years ago, they were excited about implementing more 326 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: fire in the West. They opened up an office in 327 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: LA to do more prescribed burning in western landscapes to 328 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: proactively fight catastrophic fire. And they were excited about the 329 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: Trump administration for that reason, like we're going to get 330 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: this done. And now that conversation has gone back to 331 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: this ten A M rule essentially, which is put it 332 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: out fast and it kind of doesn't matter or where 333 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: it is. 334 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very disappointing, especially in the Southeast where they 335 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: frankly both on public and private lands, have done a 336 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: great job of keeping fire on the ground and in 337 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: the landscape. Now, granted, it's a lot easier because it's 338 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: much more humid and there's a lot more water, and 339 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's easier to burn. But you know, 340 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: there's a famous hydrologist, I think his name was WB. 341 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 2: Hindes who once said that you cannot divorce a river 342 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: from its floodplain. You know, you can build all the 343 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: levees you want, Eventually that river is going to find 344 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: its flood and anything that's in it is going to 345 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: get wet or swept away. And the same is true 346 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: for these these fire adapted forests. Eventually they will burn. 347 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: And we can either understand that and try to create 348 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: policies that allow us to live in harmony with fire, 349 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: or we can continue down the path that we're on 350 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: right now, where you know, we we end up once 351 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: a fire ignites because there's so much fuel that's built up, 352 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: it blows up and then it's you know, Katie bar 353 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 2: the door, all hands on deck to put the fire out, 354 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: and it's not sustainable. It's it, you know, And and 355 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: I know the idea of talking about zoning or those 356 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: kinds of you know, rules in the West is anathema. 357 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: But as long as we allow people to build next 358 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: to these systems, these fire prone forests that want to 359 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: burn and we have suppressed their ability to burn, we're 360 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 2: putting people in harm's way. I know that's not popular, 361 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: but it's it's a reality. 362 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, if they want to build there, 363 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: that's one thing. Should the American taxpayer at large be 364 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: on the hook for their fire suppression build because they 365 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: made the choice to build the inn a very scary area. 366 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: They're super hard questions, they really are, and there are 367 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 2: no easy answers, and I definitely don't have them. But 368 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: the one thing I will say is the Forest Service 369 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 2: is an amazing research fire research arm, and they have 370 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: all kinds of publications that make clear they actually have 371 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: amazing steps that individual landowners can make to make their 372 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 2: communities and their homes fire safe. And there's all kinds 373 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 2: of evidence that you know, these fires will lay down 374 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 2: if area is adjacent to the communities have been treated properly, 375 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: and that's exactly where we should be focused as an 376 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not willing to go to that thorny 377 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: question that you raised about you know, who should pay, 378 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: because you know, one day it might be me in 379 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: my place in West Virginia. But but but I do, 380 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: I do think there are really logical steps that we 381 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: can take as a nation and agree that it makes 382 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: good public policy. Where hey, let's agree that we've got 383 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: these communities, you know, in California and Colorado, all across 384 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: the country really that are built up along national forests, 385 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: and we know that we've suppressed fire in those national 386 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 2: forests for a long time. So let's go in and 387 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: make sure that we treat those forests that have had 388 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 2: fire suppression for a long time, either through prescribed fire 389 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: or in many cases through thinning. You know, you go 390 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: in there with these feller bunchers and basically you just 391 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: take out the small diameter timber and you know, as Americans, 392 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 2: we're ingenious. We will find uses for that fiber, you know, 393 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: whether it's biofuels or other organic materials. I mean, well, 394 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 2: if the Forest Service really focused its efforts on those 395 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: communities and what they call the wildland urban interface and 396 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: thinning those and bringing back bringing them back to sort 397 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: of a more normal or a balance thatch aloge health, 398 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: So if a fire does occur because it will it 399 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: won't turn into one of these crown fires, which you know, 400 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: gets up into the top of the trees and then 401 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: you know, spreads it sparks, you know, half a mile 402 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: in any direction. That's the way. That's the way to go. 403 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: I think in order to do that, it may be 404 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: faster to get rid of rural internet starlink cell phone 405 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: serve us. So it's only rural Americans that live in 406 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: those interface areas, because it seems like the turnover of 407 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: residents that like to live in those areas these days 408 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: have no tolerance for fire or smoke. And that education 409 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: piece is a hard pill to swallow when when it's like, well, 410 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: this is our time to use our season all the 411 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: home or our retirement place that we've dreamt about forever, 412 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: and for three months, all we're doing is smell and smoke. Yeah, 413 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: and you know, I know this is kind of like 414 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: a smart ass he type of way to say it, 415 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: but it is a part of the equation is we 416 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: got to get we got to get buy in from 417 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: these communities, and we got to do some some educational 418 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: outreach to say here's here's how this proactive approach will 419 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 1: affect you more than likely. And here's how the reactive 420 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: approach will affect you more than likely. 421 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: And and and I'll tell you ran. One of the 422 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: things that I truly believe is that the Forest Service 423 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: is the right agency to leave that conversation because they 424 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: live in these communities, they're members of these communities, they're 425 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: from these communities in many cases, and they could have 426 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: that conversation. They could do that kind of education that 427 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: you're talking about. We could create pilots models all around 428 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: the country where these largely rural not always don't forget 429 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: the fires in California, you know, a couple of years ago, 430 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: but these largely rural communities, we could pilot all kinds 431 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 2: of approaches by focusing on that roaded country, the front country, 432 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 2: not the back country. And instead, what's happening now is 433 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 2: the Forest Service is going to be asked to kick 434 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: the can on this roadless rule. It's basically settled law. 435 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: The agency hasn't seen any decline in its timber base 436 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 2: because of protecting these roadless areas. The fires are obviously 437 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: more threatening and damaging to people in the front country 438 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: because that's where the people live. And so we don't 439 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: get the agency to have those kind of thoughtful conversations 440 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: with these communities that they are a part of, because 441 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: they're going to be busy trying to push this, you know, 442 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: anachronistic rule through which harkens back to the sixties and 443 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: the seventies, and we're not there anymore. 444 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: So where I want to move on to a coeuple 445 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: other topics, Chris, ye, do them quick? Where are you at? 446 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: Where's tu at on the idea of roadless reform? Like, 447 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: are there some some opportunities to uh carve some things out? 448 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I during the Bush administration, if you I 449 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: mean this is now we're going again go back to 450 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: ancient history. But right after the Clinton administration, the Bush 451 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: administration put in place of policy that allowed states, every 452 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: state has the ability to ask the federal government frankly 453 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: all of us to as citizens, to develop a regulation. 454 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 2: And so the administration said, come to us, tell us 455 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: what you think. States, and so the only a bunch 456 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: of them stepped forward initially, but in the end it 457 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: was only Idaho in Colorado that actually went through the 458 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: process and developed separate rule makings for the four point 459 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,719 Speaker 2: two million acres. I think it is in Colorado and 460 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: the nine million acres in Idaho. Idaho has more roadless lands. 461 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: I killed my first elk in a roadless area in 462 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: Idaho years and years ago. But they have more roadless 463 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 2: lands than any other state in the lower forty eight. 464 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: They also have a hell a lot more steep, irrodiable 465 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: country than a lot of places do. 466 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: Right, That highly granitic soil, that erosive. They have a 467 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: name for it, the Idaho batholith. In the Yeah, it's 468 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: just incredibly erosive, and. 469 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: It's great if you're going downhill, folks. It does the 470 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: work for you. If you're going the opposite direction, two 471 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: steps four and one step back, for sure. 472 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: Not so good. Not so good. Anyway, It was a 473 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: story I could tell you about hunting in that country. 474 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 2: But so in two thousand and nine, right, So the 475 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: roadless rule was done in two thousand and one. Eight 476 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: years later the states of Idaho and these rules were 477 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: developed in the Bush administration or Republican administration. I was 478 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: part of a group that helped in the development of 479 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: the Idaho Rule and the Colorado Rule, and then it 480 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: was approved in the Obama administration. And so there's a 481 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: way to do this if we wanted to give states 482 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: some deference to allow for the unique circumstances of those states, 483 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: as we did in Colorado, as we did in Idaho. 484 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: We could do that, and I would argue from a 485 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 2: conservation perspective, the Idaho and Colorado rules are just as 486 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: protective as the one rule. And so I think there 487 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: is and that's where we're going to try to convince 488 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 2: the administration that they can get to And there may 489 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: be of the you know, there's fifty eight and a 490 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: half million acres of world this areas. You know, I 491 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,959 Speaker 2: think there's about forty five and a half that are 492 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: at play here because of the you know, carving out 493 00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: the Idaho and Colorado portions. But there's an argument that 494 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: you could map out. We have a GIS team that 495 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: could probably do this in about thirty five minutes. If 496 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: they listen to this, they're going to be like, he 497 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: has no idea what he's talking about. But they could 498 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: easily map out, well, what are the communities that are 499 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: actually out of whack from a forest health perspective, that 500 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: are in fact adjacent to roadless areas where the Forest 501 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: Service hasn't actually gone in and done treatments. Because as 502 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: I said, you know, fifteen percent of all the treatments 503 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: that have happened in the twelve Western states over the 504 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: past ten to fifteen years have been in roadless areas. 505 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: So presumably the Forest Service has focused on the roadless 506 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: areas that are closest to communities. But let's assume that 507 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: there's some that they missed for whatever reason. Well, let's 508 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: that should be what we talk about. That should be 509 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: where we're talking about a carve out to allow for 510 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 2: what we've learned over the past twenty four years to 511 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: apply the blanket sort of. Even the language like the 512 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: recision of the roadless rule, it just it just flies 513 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: in the face of common sense. 514 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: Well, it flies in the face of a lot of 515 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, voting taxpayers who were a part of this 516 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: effort back in the late two thousand teams and in 517 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: early two thousands. Right, So that's something that gets rolled 518 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: over on too. 519 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's right. One thing I'd be remiss not to 520 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: mention I was a kid when the roadless rule was developed, 521 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: and one of the jobs this kid had was to 522 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: take all the meetings that the chief of the Forest 523 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: Service didn't want to take on roadless which, by the way, 524 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: was about all of the meetings and so I met 525 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: with all the regulated industries, the timber folks, the oil 526 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 2: and gas guys, the coal guys, all of them. And 527 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 2: I met with all the environmental community, wilderness society, defenders 528 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: of wildlife, and already see all of them. I never 529 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: had a single, not one meeting request from an organization 530 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 2: that focused on hunting and fishing, not one, including trout onlimited. 531 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: And so we have a chance. And there's only one 532 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: constituency I think that has the ability right now to 533 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 2: turn this thing around and put it in a more 534 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 2: logical direction, and that is the hunting and fishing community. 535 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 2: And I just think it's absolutely imperative that those of 536 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: us who hunt and fish and care about the outdoors 537 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: that we As I said earlier, you know, this is 538 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 2: a constituency that's slow to ire, but it's absolutely imperative 539 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 2: right now that we make our voices heard. 540 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: So this is just one piece of the puzzle right now. 541 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 1: So I want to talk about Land Water Conservation Fund, 542 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: the secretarial order that just came out for folks. I 543 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: can give you a quick synapsis for the folks that 544 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: are listening right this is not your tax dollars at work. 545 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: This is is offshore oil and gas excise tax that 546 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: goes into this bucket, and each state agency different groups 547 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: can match and receive grants for those funds to do 548 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: access work. It's one of their largest access tools and 549 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: one of the interesting parts. Also, this is very brief, Chris, 550 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: bear with me, and I'm not an expert by any means, 551 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: but typically there's lists that are put out that basically 552 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: outline the projects that would be considered, and we really 553 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: haven't seen that out of the out of the Forest 554 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: Service yet and the USDA. I'm not sure if there's 555 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: a real list that's come out of Secretary of Rawlins yet. 556 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: But the thing to remember is this money is being 557 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: putting this fun it's earmarked for this. It can't legally, 558 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: I should stress, legally be used for anything else. And 559 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: there's been projects done in all fifty states and almost 560 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: every single county, I think. 561 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: Every congressional district in the country. 562 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: So this is real deal stuff. It's helped on paper 563 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: at least everybody. I often point out the fact, like 564 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: if you're driving through some very off the beaten path 565 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: town and rural I'm a Western guy, so rural why 566 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: or Montana or the Dakotas, and you're like, how did 567 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: this town build such a nice bike path or a 568 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: swimming pool or even a skate park here and there. 569 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: Oftentimes it's done through LWCF funds and it's getting people outside. 570 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: It ties in very, very well with the Make America 571 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: Healthy Again movement that we're seeing right now. This is 572 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: something that should be at the bare minimum, a hell 573 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: of a public relations tool from the USDA and the 574 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: and the Forest Service to provide new access opportunities for Americans. 575 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 2: Including including you know, using LWCF funding to help I 576 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: can't remember the is a term of art and I'm 577 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 2: gonna forget and you'll correct me, Ryan, but to help 578 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 2: those public lands that are bound up by private lands, 579 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 2: and LWCF has been used to provide access to that 580 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: public the lands that we own that we otherwise can't 581 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: access without trespassing. Yes, yeah, that's right, and so it 582 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 2: there's I think there, I think, I mean, I'm I'm 583 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 2: I have been accused of you know, I'm a I 584 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: love to fly fish, and so I'm an inveterate optimist. 585 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 2: I don't know why you'd stand in freezing water casting 586 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 2: you know that these river ghosts as often as I do. 587 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: But I'm hoping that this will fix itself because this 588 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 2: is the same president that signed into law the Great 589 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: American Outdoors Act, one really signature conservation achievement that made 590 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 2: permanent the funding for the Land and Water Conservation Fund 591 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: used to be that it had to be authorized every 592 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: year by Congress, I'm sorry, appropriated every year by Congress, 593 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 2: and instead of getting the nine hundred million that you 594 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 2: would get from those offshore whaling gas revenues, which you 595 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 2: correctly identified as the source of the funding, we would 596 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: typically get less than half of that, because you know, 597 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 2: there's all kinds of funding exigencies that the Congress has 598 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 2: to worry about. But this president signed that into law 599 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 2: that made that funding permanent. And the idea that we 600 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 2: wouldn't allow for the BLM to fix some of the 601 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 2: checkerboard ownership and provide access to these you know, popular 602 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 2: areas to hunt and fish or allow like you said, 603 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I'm sitting here in Washington, d C. 604 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: And I coach my kids in basketball and football, I'm sorry, 605 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 2: basketball and baseball. We have a ballpark here that was 606 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,919 Speaker 2: built in part by LWCF funding, and like you said, 607 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,399 Speaker 2: every Congressional district in America, every single one of them has, 608 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: if not every county has parks in open space that 609 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 2: have benefited from the Land and Water Conservation Fund. And 610 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 2: so I'm optimistic that this will work out. That there 611 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 2: has to be a pony in this pile somewhere. If 612 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 2: we keep digging, we'll find the pony. 613 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, if you jump back to Trump one, I 614 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: had a hell of a good time telling people in 615 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: the Mixed Company, I keep that if you really think 616 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: about it, between lw CF and I keep, I'm sorry, 617 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: I have raw wah on the mind, but that's not it. 618 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: But the American Great American Outdoors Act. Between the Great 619 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,919 Speaker 1: American Outdoors Act and l w CF, I'm like, we're 620 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about Donald Trump and Richard Nixon as 621 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: two of our most influential common servation President consequential. 622 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it was don't forget it was President Trump 623 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 2: that denied the key permit for the pebble mind as well, 624 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,359 Speaker 2: you know, And I just think part of our job 625 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 2: as hunters and anglers, you know, we're never going to 626 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 2: bang the drama as loud as the environmental community. And 627 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 2: I think that's frankly our strength in terms of we're 628 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,879 Speaker 2: not shrill, but I just think it's it's it's time 629 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 2: we got up. It's time we got up off the couch, 630 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 2: and you know, we have to make our voices heard 631 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 2: because again, as I say, the history of this community, 632 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 2: at least over the past fifty years, has been that 633 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 2: it's you know, we're typically ignored by one political party 634 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 2: and take it for granted by the other. And and 635 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 2: you know, if they ignore you long enough or take 636 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 2: you for granted long enough, they're not going to care 637 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: about your interests. And so we've got to speak up 638 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 2: and make sure that they know that we're paying attention. 639 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: The third leg of this stool that I want to 640 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: talk about today to bring your point home, is the 641 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: use of the Congressional Review Act to rescind regional management plans. 642 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,399 Speaker 1: Regional management plans. I know you've listened to me jaw 643 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: on about it on the podcast. That is another process 644 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: that is long and lengthy, and it takes a monumental 645 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: effort and a lot of time to bring to fruition 646 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: because it's designed to take in all stakeholders point of 647 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: view and interests into the management of our public lands. 648 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: And that is Monpa Kettle and their RV driving down 649 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: the road. As much as it is you know, Conoco 650 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: Phillips or name your wind power energy company or or 651 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: hard rock mining outfit, whatever, but think of that onerous 652 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,280 Speaker 1: task of bringing all of that information together and saying 653 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: in this region, this is how we're balancing it out. 654 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: And it doesn't stay like that forever. Right, These management 655 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: plans turn over and they use not only the best 656 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: available science, but the input from everybody to come together 657 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: to make a plan. 658 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, the law requires them to be redone 659 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,280 Speaker 2: every ten to fifteen years on Bureau of Land Management 660 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 2: and for a service lends And you're right, you know, 661 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 2: in the agencies again, I think they do a remarkable 662 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 2: balancing act to remarkable job of balancing all these multiple 663 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 2: interests that want these lands protected and or used. And 664 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 2: one of the things that I think the Forest Service 665 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 2: in the BLM have gotten really good at in the 666 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: past ten to fifteen years is sort of the focus 667 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,319 Speaker 2: on these collaborative, stewardship oriented groups that come together in 668 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 2: these communities and bring together commodity interests and conservation interests 669 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 2: and you know, maybe state and local government interests and 670 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 2: they'll come and present to these agencies an alternative that 671 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 2: for how to manage you know, a million two million 672 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 2: acres of land over a ten or a fifteen year period. 673 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,359 Speaker 2: And the Forest Service in BLM have been promoting that 674 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 2: kind of community engagement because it guarantees you the buy 675 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 2: in that you need to have a durable plan and 676 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 2: to have you know, Washington d C. Swoop in at 677 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 2: the eleventh hour through this Congressional Review Act and do 678 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 2: away with the it's not hours, it's days and day, 679 00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 2: weeks and months of conversations and give and and you know, 680 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 2: it's not I don't think it's particularly productive. You know, 681 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 2: I'll tell you I mentioned that Idaho roadless rule. You 682 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 2: know that the committee that was formed to develop that 683 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 2: rule was created during the Bush administration, and so you know, 684 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 2: they they it was fairly strong representation of commodity interests 685 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 2: that were on that committee. But you know, Ryan, when 686 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,280 Speaker 2: we got to success, the reason we got to success 687 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 2: was I realized as a conservation advocate, I had to 688 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 2: know what winning looked like for the timber advocate, and 689 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 2: for the off road vehicle advocate, and for the oil 690 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 2: and gas guy. And they did the same pivot for me. 691 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 2: Or for us, and once it was sort of like, oh, 692 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 2: I see what you need. Okay, here, let's try that. 693 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 2: But you understand what I need. And in the end 694 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,839 Speaker 2: what happened is they were advocating more effectively than I 695 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 2: was for some of the stuff I cared about because 696 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 2: they knew that we had to have that. And that's 697 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 2: what these collaborative processes allow for it. You become friends, 698 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 2: you hang out. I remember when my second son, Casey 699 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 2: was born, Jim Riley, who was the timber representative from 700 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 2: the Inner Mountain Forest Products Association, which I think may 701 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 2: be gone by now, but he stopped at the house 702 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 2: one night with a little a little logging truck filled 703 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,919 Speaker 2: with little log you know, little logs for a kid, 704 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 2: and he had a note that I still have that says, hey, Casey, 705 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 2: let me know if you ever want a real man 706 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 2: to take you out in the woods. But you know, 707 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 2: we all we all became friends, and we all and 708 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,479 Speaker 2: you know we're still friends to this day. And that's 709 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 2: what that local collaboration develops. And and and and I 710 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 2: just think these things like the Congressional Review Act, I 711 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 2: understand why they have it. And of course it's there, 712 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 2: you know, there are elected leaders, but that should be 713 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 2: a tool that's used very rarely because it can upset 714 00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 2: a lot of apple carts. 715 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And folks, the buzzword that you're here thrown 716 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: out all the time, right as local stakeholders. And that's 717 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:14,240 Speaker 1: what we're talking about when these huge acts go through, 718 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: is it's local stakeholders coming to the table over and 719 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: over and over again. These regional management plans are are 720 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: the same thing. And when Chris says the Congressional Review Act, 721 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: it is it really is like uh, trying to clean 722 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: a dinner plate with a sledgehammer. It's not going to 723 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: go out right. 724 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 2: Uh. 725 00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: The way the way this is written is if they 726 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: get rid of these regional management plans through use of 727 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 1: the Congressional Review Act, anything good in that management plan 728 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: and anything bad, none of it can be used again, 729 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: even if it is the proper representation of local stakeholders 730 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 1: and the proper representation of the best available science for 731 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 1: that particular landscape, right that particular region. 732 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 2: That's right, No, that's exactly right. I mean, Eastland managers 733 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,080 Speaker 2: have such a difficult job. They've got to balance these 734 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 2: local interests with the national interest because these are public lands. 735 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 2: That we all own and we it's not dissimilar to 736 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 2: this effort to undo the roadless rule. Right, we ought 737 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 2: to be encouraging for supervisors and district rangers to have 738 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 2: as much time available to go out into their communities 739 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 2: to understand what the what the needs of the communities 740 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,399 Speaker 2: are and to balance those out against what the law 741 00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 2: says they have to do. And and things like this 742 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 2: roadless decisions that they distract from that most essential work 743 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,880 Speaker 2: of of our of our public service, and and it's frustrating. 744 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 2: But you know, as I said earlier, we you know 745 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 2: we can't. We can't sit on the sidelines. We can't 746 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,240 Speaker 2: or or we'll continue to be ignored or taken for granted. 747 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,759 Speaker 1: So what what do we do? Chris? I'm gonna ask 748 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: you what we do? And then I want to hear 749 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,240 Speaker 1: your decomposed granted Idaho story. 750 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 2: So the decomposed granted Idahoo story is good, But uh, 751 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 2: just go to We can make it really easy for you. 752 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,839 Speaker 2: Trow Unlimited is t You just go to tu dot 753 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 2: org and we've got an action alert that you can 754 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,879 Speaker 2: sign up there. You you know, if you're someone who 755 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 2: does hunt or fish in in roadless areas, you can 756 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 2: personalize it, you know, you can talk about you know, 757 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 2: taking your kids there or your grandkids, or favorite fishing 758 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 2: and hunting experiences. The more personal you make it, the better. 759 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 2: But that's one thing you can do. You know. One 760 00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 2: of the things that we did back in the day 761 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 2: when we created the Roadless rules, we had like four 762 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty public meetings around the country, and then 763 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 2: we had a very extended public comment period. It wasn't 764 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,439 Speaker 2: fifteen days, it was like one hundred and twenty days, 765 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 2: because we wanted to hear what people thought of what 766 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 2: we were doing. And I think asking for a little 767 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 2: more time in deliberation is not a stall tactic. It's 768 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 2: just leads to good policy. So that's what I would 769 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,839 Speaker 2: do in terms of the roadless Rule. My Idaho Batholist story, though, 770 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 2: is it's less about my hunting and fishing, although, as 771 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 2: I say, I did shoot my first elk there. But 772 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 2: there was a place called the South Fork of the 773 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 2: Salmon River drainage which had like fifty percent of all 774 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 2: the steelhead in the Snake River system, and the Snake 775 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,279 Speaker 2: has fifty percent of all of the steelhead historically had 776 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 2: all the fifty percent of all the steelhead and salmon 777 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 2: in the entire Columbia River basin, and then the Snake 778 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 2: River dams, of course, which I know, Ryan, you're intimately 779 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 2: familiar with. You know, took a toll there. But in 780 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,959 Speaker 2: the sixties the Forest Service went into this steep, high 781 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 2: elevation roadless country and they built roads to do a 782 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,759 Speaker 2: timber sale in this highly granitic soil, meaning it's highly irrosive. 783 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 2: As you walk up hill, you come one step up, 784 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,719 Speaker 2: two steps down kind of thing that Ryan, sand fun 785 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,400 Speaker 2: to sit on your butt and slide down, it not 786 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 2: so fun to walk up it. And then there was 787 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 2: a big rain on snow event that happened and five 788 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 2: six seven feet of sediment came off those hillsides and 789 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 2: poured into one of the most productive salmon rivers in 790 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,920 Speaker 2: the United States, the South Fork of the Salmon River drainage. 791 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,600 Speaker 2: And the system never came and of course the dams 792 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 2: were also constructed, and that has kept fish from coming back, 793 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,799 Speaker 2: but the system was never the same they've been. That 794 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 2: system has been flushing itself out for the past fifty years. 795 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,840 Speaker 2: And that's the point. We have the ability, i think, 796 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,840 Speaker 2: in this country to look at the fifteen to sixteen 797 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,240 Speaker 2: billion dollars that we have spent trying to recover salmon 798 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 2: in the South Fork of the Salmon River drainage, in 799 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 2: the Snake drainage in the Columbia Basin generally, and we 800 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:27,839 Speaker 2: can decide in places like these roadless landscapes, let's leave 801 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 2: those intact. Let's leave them just as God created them. 802 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,080 Speaker 2: The options that we have there for development in the future. 803 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,839 Speaker 2: If we come up, if there's some mineral that we 804 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 2: need to fight an alien invasion that's only available in 805 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 2: a roadless area, it's still going to be there. It's 806 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 2: not going anywhere. We can go get it later on 807 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,680 Speaker 2: if we need it, but for now, it would be 808 00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,920 Speaker 2: such a demonstration of maturity to simply say we're going 809 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 2: to leave those places intact. For the hunting and the 810 00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 2: fishing and the other ecological values, the drinking water supply values, 811 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 2: all the ecological values that the otherwise supply of the 812 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,280 Speaker 2: United States. We don't have to make the same mistakes 813 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 2: that we made in the South work of the Salmon 814 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 2: River drainage. In other roadless landscapes around the country, we 815 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,359 Speaker 2: just have no need for it. 816 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: That's well put pro gress. The interesting juxtaposition here is 817 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: the way these lands are talked about often, right, is 818 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:36,799 Speaker 1: that changing big sweeping changes that we talked about today, 819 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: that rescinding the roadless rule, they're rolling back the smashing 820 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,160 Speaker 1: a dinner plate with a sledgehammer of our MPs are 821 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,439 Speaker 1: going to bring value to this land is how they're 822 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 1: often talked about. And we completely negate gloss over the 823 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 1: extreme and increasing value of these ecosystems landscapes as they 824 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,839 Speaker 1: are right now. We're not making more of them. If 825 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,720 Speaker 1: you're living in the West, it is very noticeable that 826 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: they are more and more in demand and used than 827 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: they ever have been in my memory, which again basic 828 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:34,360 Speaker 1: economic low supply, high demand. That is an increasing value 829 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,439 Speaker 1: on the landscape, so we got to treat it as such. 830 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,239 Speaker 2: That's right, Brian. Look, I mean, I think there was 831 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,040 Speaker 2: a time in the fifties and the sixties and the 832 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 2: seventies where the Forest Service, in the BLM for that matter, 833 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:51,880 Speaker 2: they saw their role as bringing out this basket of 834 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:58,759 Speaker 2: commodities to be supplied for the US. Today, for all 835 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,880 Speaker 2: the reasons you just said, most Americans view and value 836 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,879 Speaker 2: public lands, including and especially those who live around them, 837 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 2: for the sense of wildness and naturalness that they provide, 838 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 2: not the fact that there's an extra barrel of gas 839 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 2: or a blade of grass or a board foot of 840 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,400 Speaker 2: timber that we can extract from them. It's knowing that 841 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 2: we can pass on a richer land and water legacy 842 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,279 Speaker 2: to our kids than we inherited from our parents. Like, 843 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 2: that's what most of us care about. 844 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,759 Speaker 1: I just just finished Nate Schweber's book. I'm not sure 845 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:42,240 Speaker 1: if you if you're read it, is this America of Ours. 846 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just recommended to me. 847 00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 1: There's a couple of great takeaways. But there's this quote 848 00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:56,840 Speaker 1: that really stuck with me, and is about Bernard who 849 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: dropped into the Willamette Valley, right, and this is in 850 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:07,840 Speaker 1: the forties and he saw firsthand the dust bowl and 851 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 1: the top soil, that awesome volcanic top soil was blowing everywhere. 852 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:18,360 Speaker 2: Devoto, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Amper's Magazine. 853 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:23,239 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and he uh talked to a farmer who 854 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, don't worry about it. The soil is 855 00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:33,799 Speaker 1: so deep here, it will never run out. And I 856 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,400 Speaker 1: think Devoto's quote that I just looked up here was 857 00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 1: in the West, nothing would run out until it ran out, 858 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,399 Speaker 1: And it's like this A lot of what we hold 859 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 1: here right now is finite. 860 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,520 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, well said, that's a yeah, Bernard de Voto. 861 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,120 Speaker 2: He was one of the most passionate early advocates of 862 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,960 Speaker 2: public lands and fighting back the public land transfer ideas 863 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,439 Speaker 2: that you know come up. I call them. I say 864 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,400 Speaker 2: that they have a Cicadian rhythm, because just like cicadas 865 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 2: emerged from the earth, at least in the east, every 866 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,279 Speaker 2: fifteen to sixteen years, that's when these ideas come up. 867 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:12,480 Speaker 1: You know. 868 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 2: It's the Sagebrush rebellion, the wise use movement, the War 869 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 2: on the West, you know, the county supremacy movement, and 870 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,120 Speaker 2: most recently it was Mike Lee's idea of you know, 871 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,120 Speaker 2: selling two to three million acres of public lands. It's 872 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,360 Speaker 2: just we have to remain ever vigilant because you're right, 873 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 2: they're not making much land anymore. 874 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,040 Speaker 1: That's right. Well, not to belabor this, Chris, but thank 875 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,880 Speaker 1: you so much. As you just pointed out, land sales 876 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,320 Speaker 1: for this brief moment are off the table and they're 877 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: trying it a different way. They're gonna manage it into 878 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 1: valuelessness if we don't stand up and fight for it. Remember, 879 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: if you're not willing to advocate for yourself. Don't worry 880 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: because somebody else will. You may just not like how 881 00:57:59,040 --> 00:57:59,520 Speaker 1: they do it. 882 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:08,960 Speaker 2: Up. Had sunder in action at the DA