WEBVTT - George Conway Explains it All (to Here’s the Thing) 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.360 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:11.240 thing from iHeart Radio. Almost exactly nine years ago, Donald 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:15.560 Trump descended the escalator at his Fifth Avenue residence to 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:20.639 announce his candidacy for president. Since that infamous moment, the 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:25.319 political discourse in the United States has disintegrated. We have 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.320 never been more angry, indignant, and divided than we are 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.839 today in the post Trump world. However, one voice that 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.600 cuts clearly through the noise is that of my guest today. 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.600 George Conway, the lawyer and commentator, has become a leading 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.519 voice in the conservative movement. He was originally a supporter 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:50.959 of the Trump campaign, but soon stood firmly against the president, 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:56.280 all while being married to Trump's senior counselor, Kelly Ann Conway. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:01.160 George Conway is one of the founders of the Lincoln Project, 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.640 a super pac formed in twenty nineteen whose core mission 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.759 is to defeat Donald Trump. He's also a contributing writer 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.720 at The Atlantic and host of the podcast George Conway 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.280 Explains It All. Conway is so committed to the anti 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.200 Trump cause he recently donated more than nine hundred and 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:27.679 twenty nine thousand dollars to the Biden Victory Fund. Growing up, 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.640 Conway's father worked for defense contractor Raytheon. I was curious 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.320 to learn how his upbringing affected him politically. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.880 He tested missile defense systems on ships and so he would, 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.800 you know, they would install them and test them and 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.480 calibrate them, and he traveled a lot to go to 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.400 various ports to do that. 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.320 You go to Harvard in eighty four biochemical sciences and 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.320 you graduate magna cum launde. Why that? 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.680 Why the switch? Why? I don't know. I mean, I 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:00.400 think it. 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:01.960 Was because what was the original plan. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.240 My original plan was probably the major in economics and 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.320 then go to law school. But my parents kind of 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.160 was thinking, oh man, people lawyers not making any money. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.000 You should become a doctor. And I had all these 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.760 friends who were pre mets, and I decided, okay, well 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.640 let me go. It was a mess, but I figured 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:16.880 it out. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:18.080 It was a pass. 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.400 It was a second pass. And then I realized that, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.120 you know, this is not what I wanted to do, 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:23.920 and I'd go back to plan A. But it was 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.040 too late to really change majors again. So I went 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.919 back to So I just finished off the biochemistry, just 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:30.840 applied to law school, and it kind of worked. It 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.000 was helpful because you know, there weren't that many biochem 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.040 majors applying to law school, so it was actually probably 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:37.160 advantageous to me. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.399 So I know, it just worked out. Now, your your 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.799 parents they were from where originally. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.919 My mother was from the Philippines and my father's from me. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.000 What was his educational background? Like, are you the golden 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.200 boy when you're going to Harvard and yeah, law. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.480 School, I guess you could say that. I mean she 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.520 had My mother had a master's in chemistry and a 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.639 master's in computer science. Your dad, my dad, I think 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.160 had an sociate's degree and something. He joined the Navy 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.000 at like eighteen or nineteen learned learned on the job 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:06.840 that way. Sure. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.320 And when you were going to Harvard and then you 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.919 go on to Yale Law School, you then of course 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.360 become the editor of the Yale Law chan editor one 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.760 of many. Well while you're an editor, I'm sorry, and 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.000 then the president of the school's chapter of the Federalist Society, Yes, 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.880 were your parent Was your household a conservative household? No, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.760 I you know that's planting a flag, I would say, 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:30.680 the Federalist Society. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.000 Yeah, but it wasn't much. It wasn't really that much 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.120 of a flag back then in a way because it 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.000 wasn't I mean, the Federal Society didn't have all the 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.440 connotations it had today. It was much smaller, and it 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.480 was just sort of like it was where anybody who 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.320 was basically center or right could basically have a political discussion. 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.160 And those were different times, I think. 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.360 No, So it was not you were sitting there saying 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:53.760 this is like. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.960 This was basically it was basically like you know, people 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:57.240 who was provoted for Reagan. 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.160 Essentially, what was the campus of Yale when you're there 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.720 for law school or either one? What was the campus 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:05.360 life in the eighties there? 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.680 It was very nice, It was very peaceful, It wasn't 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.960 the only real controversy on the campus at that point 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.120 in time was there were these series of cafeteria workers 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.280 strikes which tended to divide people, and in one of 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.400 people that want to cross picket lines and come into 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.040 the law school and some people, you know, said, look, 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.320 we're paying twish we got to come into law school, 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.520 and and it was a little bit divisive to that extent, 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.160 and it was it was disruptive of campus life, but 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:34.120 it didn't last very long. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.960 Yeah. So the Vietnam thing in the seventies. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.320 There wasn't nothing. There was a contract. Now there was, 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.560 and then there were there were these very these encamped, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:48.200 very small encampments by today's standard, pushing for divestment of 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.279 companies that did business in South Africa. But it wasn't 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.440 the kind of environment you Yeah, I mean it was, 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.880 it was. It wasn't a big deal. What did you 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.200 think of Reagan? I liked Reagan. I mean I I 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.040 grew up in the seventies and eighties, and I grew 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.080 up in the seventies basically, which was the shadow of 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.440 the sixties, where you still had a lot of people 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.560 thinking that if you just passed the right law and 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.120 came up with the right scheme, you could create nirvana 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.440 in society, and that could be very expensive. And I 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.839 came to the conclusion that people were overdoing it, that 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:26.640 you know, you kind of have to let things fall 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.600 where they may, and that the free market was sometimes. 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.320 Often there are winners and losers, that. 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.240 There are winners and losers, and that you can't you 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.360 can't manipulate every outcome in society and try to make 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.320 it perfect, because if when you try to do that, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:44.520 you basically end up squelching creativity and squelching the economy. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.640 And I, you know, I became kind of a free marketeer, 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.040 and that's what, you know, I was persuaded. That's how 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:51.960 I became a Republican. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:56.600 Really, But I would assume that your your leaning as 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.000 a free marketeer would include the people played by the rules. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:05.680 Too, absolutely, power being absolutely obey regulation. Absolutely, And if 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.120 you would if I had come of political age in 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.320 nineteen seventy five, I would have, you know, I consider 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:14.320 my Actually, when I was in high school, I considered 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.280 myself a Scoop Jackson Democrat because at that point I 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.200 was anti Republican because of Nixon. I thought Nixon. My 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:25.080 first political memories were ten or eleven years old watching 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.440 the Watergate hearings, and you know, I found I found Nixon. 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.880 I found Nixon deeply offensive, and I found you know, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.599 and that sort of I mean, I've I've hated corrupt 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.719 politicians ever since. But then the Republican Party kind of 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.240 cleaned up its act, in my view, and then when 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.120 they do that, it seemed like the late seventies and 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.680 it just seemed they, you know, once Nixon was gone, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.320 things were better, but I felt, you know, I mean, 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.400 it was the era of stagflation and Ted Kennedy was 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.240 pushing wage and price controls, which I thought was absolutely insane. 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.640 You can't regulate the economy that way. And I kind 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:04.280 of drove me, drove me a little to the right. 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.320 And plus, you know, I grew up in Massachusetts, and 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.159 and you know, it's just you get kind of fed 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.560 up with the Liberals at a certain point growing up. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.080 So I've always been a bit of a contrary and 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.200 you put me in one group, I kind of kind 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.520 of rebel against it and push back on things. And 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.320 that's I guess that's part of the party to me. 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.040 I would love, I said to myself periodically, not often, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.920 but I said periodically, because because I'm not some crazy 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.480 progressive in one sense, there's things I think there are. 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.520 There are conservative thoughts I think are admirable and practical. 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:38.960 But I mean I've always thought to myself, you know, 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.120 give me a Republican I could vote for in terms 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.600 of who they are as a person, and then of 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.760 course what their policies are. I can't hand in hand. 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.760 And I always viewed, you know, Reagan and then Bush 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:52.920 Junior as this guy that was like the guy you 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.520 brought with you to get you into the party. He 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.160 knew Jeff well that he was the front man they opened, 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.840 got the door open for you. Meaning I had zero 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.280 respects for Reagan as a person. Everybody and I know said, 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:07.800 I just said to you before, what do you think 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:09.800 of Reagan? And you said the same thing. Everybody I've 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.000 ever spoken to about Reagan said, they go, I like Reagan. 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.960 You know the likability fact. They like Reagan. And I 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.200 have many friends who worked for Reagan, where as I 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.680 got out of college. But my thing was Reagan and 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:22.760 Bush Junior. I thought to myself, these guys just have 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.440 no right to be president the United States. It's none. 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.920 They are hood ornaments on a vehicle and under the 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:30.720 hood of that car, or all the other people writing 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.800 the policy, creating the policy, explaining to him the policy. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.160 He was a host of a show. And I thought 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:38.760 the same thing. For Bush Junior, I thought he would 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.080 go again eight more years of a guy who's I 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:43.520 go on the street and find a guy or a 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.160 woman started to be president United States right now rather 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.839 than him. These guys are all functionaries. Am I offending you? 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:55.959 No, I'm not agreeing with you because you're I actually 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.560 thought Reagan had some good instincts. I would prefer more 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.000 intellect actual presidents, There's no question about that. But you 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.360 have to take what you can get. And you know, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.840 I thought I thought Reagan's overall direction was good. I 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:11.040 thought George W. Bush I had mixed feelings about because 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.000 I was very much against the Iraq War, although I 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:15.040 liked him personally. 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:20.000 How did you feel in twenty sixteen when Trump won 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.360 and of course Hillary lost. Was Hillary's Clinton someone who 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:24.840 troubled you? 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.439 She did? I mean, I didn't like the ethos of 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.160 the Clinton administration. I kind of learned not to like them, 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.400 and I would vote her for her today over Trump, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.600 knowing what I know today. But you know, at the time, 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.600 I thought that he would not be quite normal, but 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.040 I thought he was like the best we were going 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.000 to be able to do. When I thought that the 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.880 institutions and the people around him would cabin him and 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.880 kind of teach him how to get by. And I 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.920 thought that a normal person would, you know, even if 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.480 they were eccentric, would adapt their behavior to make it 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.120 functional for the job so that they would be remembered well. 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.080 And what happened as I watched that in twenty seventeen, 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.560 is like, this isn't happening. What is wrong with this guy? 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.240 And that's sort of what got me thinking about, well, 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.560 you know, the guy's psychological condition and whether or not 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.600 he was good for the country, and drew some negative 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:21.360 conclusions after that after watching him. He's worse. Basically everything 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:26.439 is about him. That's the thing that I thought makes 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.240 the difference with politicians who become present and is they 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.520 realize how much the office is greater than they are 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.520 and how much responsibility they have, and it chastens them 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.000 and it makes them more humble in a way. And 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.559 with Trump, there's nothing. Because Trump is the most narcissistic 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.520 human being you could ever imagine, and it's all about him. 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.720 Everything is about him. Pathologically, hath alot, He's no, He's 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.760 absolutely is narcissistic personality disorder. He's also antisocial, has an 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.280 antisocial personality disorder. I mean, he's a very very disturbed 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:03.280 human being. And that's why he could never adapt. He can't. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.240 He can only he can only get worse, he can't 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:05.640 get better. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.880 Well, the thing about him also is that when he 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.040 wins and Hillary loses, I thought to myself, for most 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.880 let's say Republicans were even undecided, even Independence was voting 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:24.040 against Hillary because of policies that she expounded, or was 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.439 it about her being a woman? 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.920 No, I mean the country will ever vote for a woman. Oh, absolutely, 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.040 I think the country could vote for a woman. I mean, 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:32.680 I think there are some women I think would be 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.160 great presidents. I think, I mean, I don't. I'd want 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:36.920 to see them more of them in action, like an 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.600 Abigail Spamberger or I think there are some very very 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.600 good women in politics. I think Nikki Haley actually if 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.040 I mean there are things I don't like about her 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.000 and the way she conducted the campaign, there are things 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.000 I loved about her that in the way she conducted 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.439 a campaign, I think she actually would be potentially a 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.960 very good president. And I think that I think that 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.680 if she had gotten the nomination, which was never going 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.680 to happen, I think there's a good chance she could 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.040 have been resident. So, you know, I don't I don't think. 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.480 I mean, I think there's certain, no doubt there is 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.640 a certain element of the population that might not vote 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.400 for a woman for you know, because of that she's 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.000 a because she's a woman. But then there's gonna be 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:14.559 a portion of the population that will vote for a 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.280 woman because she's a woman, and maybe that cancels out. 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.800 I don't know. I'd leave that to a you know, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.880 a very highly sent highly a large sample of a poll. 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:25.240 And then I think there are you know, the people 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.280 who would not vote for a woman are going to 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:28.559 be people who a probably not going to vote a 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.480 Democrat anyway. So it's I don't, I don't I think 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.640 at this point, I think, you know, a woman comes 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.520 along who is the place, in the right moment, at 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.200 the right time, could easily win the presidency. I mean, like, 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.160 look at these three women and who are basically running 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:49.280 the state of Michigan. Terrific, terrific, terrific politicians, terrific, very smart. 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.280 You know that That's the reason why it's it's good 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.200 to sort of let people percolate because then you can 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.120 see how they conduct themselves in different situations. But you 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.959 know that trifecta they have in Michigan. I mean, they're 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.640 a little to the left of me, but but I 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.920 just think like they are excellent public servants. Benson the 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.800 Secretary of State, and Dana Nessel. These are the type 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.559 of people. We need more of these people in politics, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:12.440 and you know, I wish we had some on the 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.400 Republican side that you know, don't let me see. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:16.960 Let me just say this. I was on vacation with 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.400 my family. We wanted to son dance. We're there at 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.199 stein ericson the lodge and there's Romney and he comes 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.440 in with his family and have brunch or something. And 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.079 he's there by himself of reading the paper waiting for somebody. 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.240 He sees me and I wave high and he stands 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:31.559 up and shakes my hands. He goes, he goes, don't 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.000 stand here for very long as that I want my 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:37.520 picture taken with you. And we both laughed and and 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.160 I said, and I chatted with him for like three minutes. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.000 When I walked away and talked to friends of mine 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.160 and said, the guy's so much more three dimensional than 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.840 they packaged him during the campaigns. He had the worst 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.280 fucking campaign staff you could imagine. And I think to myself, 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.480 why does this party, what is the lure and the 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.440 fascination with Trump? When why not Romney someone like him? 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.760 It's beyond my comprehension. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.679 And you know, but I think it's I think your 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.240 observation is true about about people that they don't always 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:11.520 project what they are in private publicly. And I you know, 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.320 I don't know why that is. Maybe maybe he was 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.000 an actor could explain that a little better to me. 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.680 But I mean Romney was that way. Bob Dole was 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.400 that way. People said, you know, people who talked to 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.360 Bob Dole and met him privately said he was funny, warm, relaxed. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.000 And on television he always was a high school gym teacher. 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.280 He always came off a stiff. So they, you know, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.640 remember the Saturday Night Live impressions, they used to do 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:39.360 it him and exactly Bob Dole talking about Bob Dole 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.120 again and and and you know it was just and 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.680 then and and same was true of you know, I've 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.640 become friendly with a lot of people who worked for Hillary. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.400 And I was friendly with my law partner who passed 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.040 away me rest in peace, Bernie Nusbaum, who is very 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.160 very close to missus Clinton. And you know, basically the 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.360 description age when you is that she is just the 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.680 warmest and just lovely, this person you could just sit 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.680 and have a chat with. But I don't know that 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.480 all of that, that all of that projected on television 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:11.120 as well. But that said, the attraction of Trump I've 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.160 always found mystifying. He doesn't say anything that's particularly intelligent. 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.280 He doesn't. He can be nasty, he can be funny, 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.360 he can actually be funny, but I don't think he 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:23.600 actually has a sense of humor in the sense that 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.040 normal people have a sense of humor. I think he 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.120 knows that if he says some things that people will laugh, 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.320 but I don't think he has a sense of irony. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.200 I think his sense of humor what he thinks is 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.800 funny is mocking people, and that sometimes gets laughter. But 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.840 I don't I don't think he has aol of comedy. 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:43.840 We Well Rickles, though there would there be, there would 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.520 be twists to it, there was a there was funny, 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.600 actually funny, and and Trump Trump is is funny, but 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.160 he actually doesn't mean to be. At times he has 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.480 no idea why he's making people laugh. And and I 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.640 just don't the attraction of him. I think there's an 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.160 authority terrian streak among a lot of people that they 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:07.600 basically like him because he is all about himself. He 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.280 projects something that they want to be, which is the 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.120 worst in themselves. He brings out the worst in people 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.960 because they look at him and he doesn't have to 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.120 follow the rules. He just basically says, fuck the rules. 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:21.040 But he's also. 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:25.000 Capable of burrowing into and finding his way toward a 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.040 place where he has the least resistance. In his life. 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.400 Trump is someone who he just gets up every day 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:31.720 and there's no one there to say no. 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:33.640 Right, There's no one there to say no, because if 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.280 you say no, they're banished. Right, And that's been his 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.040 entire life. And you know, he has two modes of 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.120 operation to get what he wants. He can be extremely flattering, 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.080 but then he can be an incredible bully, and nobody 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:48.840 wants to deal with the bully, so they just give in. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.160 And that's part of how he gets what he wants. 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.200 And I think, you know, for example, when his trial downtown, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.440 he gets he got what he wants in certain ways 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.800 that may end up having bit him. But the other 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.800 thing is, I think part of his appeal is that 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.000 he creates a permission structure for people to be their 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.360 worst cells because you can let out your anger. These 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.320 people are bad, yeah, fuck them, And he brings out 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:13.479 the worst in people. 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:21.920 George Conway, if you enjoy conversations with leading political voices. 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.520 Check out my episode with California Representative Adam Schiff. 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.960 I felt during the Obama administration and during the first 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:36.480 Obama campaign that a lot of young people were inspired 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.000 the same way Democrats have been inspired by Kennedy and 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:41.959 Republicans have been inspired by Reagan. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.119 Now I think that. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.720 They're you know, the vast reaction is just revulsion at 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.040 what they see going on. The one positive that comes 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.199 out of it, though, is that people have recognized that 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.080 they can no longer sit on the sideline. So I 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:57.840 can't tell you how many people have told me over 0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:59.600 the last couple of years that they have never been 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.159 politically involved before, but now they realize they have to be. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.879 To hear more of my conversation with Adam Schiff, go 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:13.720 to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, George 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.080 Conway shares the ways in which he agrees with a 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:30.880 position of the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I'm Alec Baldwin 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.359 and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Early in the 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.480 Trump administration, George Conway was vocal about what he saw 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:43.280 as instability and chaos within the White House. He was 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.720 instrumental in forming the group Checks and Balances to combat 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.920 the Trump administration's betrayals of bedrock legal norms. Czechs and 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.480 Balances eventually became the Society for the Rule of Law, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.240 and Conway is its board president. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:04.720 This was a group that I formed in twenty eighteen 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.520 because I thought that the Federal Society and other conservative 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:13.600 legal groups weren't really taking seriously the threats to the 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.080 rule of law that Donald Trump presented. Remember this is 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:21.840 pre insurrection, pre January sixth, and the real threat there 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.400 was that, you know, his attacks on his own attorney 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.720 general and his attacks on courts. And so we formed 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.840 this group to basically speak out about these issues because 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.280 we didn't think that the you know, I mean, the 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:40.719 mainstream conservative legal organizations were too much trying to not 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:46.399 tick off Trump and were busy worrying about placing people 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.719 on the judiciary or placing people in the government. So 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.080 we were actually the opposite of that, and we were 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.080 basically we consisted mainly a lot of them were older 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.680 guys who worked in the Reagan administration where they basically said, well, 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.520 this is the conservatism that we had back in the day, 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.119 and then some younger people. So we weren't really into 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:11.520 judicial appointments. But now we have morphed that group into 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.480 a new group called the Society for the Rule of 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.800 Law Institute, and we've revamped it and we're you know, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.200 we're totally talking about exactly the threat that we see 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.600 to the rule of law and to democracy that trump Ism, 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.119 the movement, and the way the direction of the conservative 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:29.880 movement is bringing us. 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.639 When you see what Trump and his minions have wrought 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.359 in terms of judicial policy, Roe v. Wade is the 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.359 obvious example. Were you indifferent or do you consider the 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.000 Roe v. Wade the situation decision of victory? 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.520 Neither. My thing about Roe v. Wade was, Look, if 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.879 I were a state legislator in nineteen seventy three, the 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.760