1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: thing from iHeart Radio. Almost exactly nine years ago, Donald 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Trump descended the escalator at his Fifth Avenue residence to 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: announce his candidacy for president. Since that infamous moment, the 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: political discourse in the United States has disintegrated. We have 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: never been more angry, indignant, and divided than we are 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: today in the post Trump world. However, one voice that 8 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: cuts clearly through the noise is that of my guest today. 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: George Conway, the lawyer and commentator, has become a leading 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: voice in the conservative movement. He was originally a supporter 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: of the Trump campaign, but soon stood firmly against the president, 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: all while being married to Trump's senior counselor, Kelly Ann Conway. 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: George Conway is one of the founders of the Lincoln Project, 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: a super pac formed in twenty nineteen whose core mission 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: is to defeat Donald Trump. He's also a contributing writer 16 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: at The Atlantic and host of the podcast George Conway 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Explains It All. Conway is so committed to the anti 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: Trump cause he recently donated more than nine hundred and 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: twenty nine thousand dollars to the Biden Victory Fund. Growing up, 20 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: Conway's father worked for defense contractor Raytheon. I was curious 21 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: to learn how his upbringing affected him politically. 22 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: He tested missile defense systems on ships and so he would, 23 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: you know, they would install them and test them and 24 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: calibrate them, and he traveled a lot to go to 25 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: various ports to do that. 26 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: You go to Harvard in eighty four biochemical sciences and 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: you graduate magna cum launde. Why that? 28 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: Why the switch? Why? I don't know. I mean, I 29 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: think it. 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: Was because what was the original plan. 31 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: My original plan was probably the major in economics and 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: then go to law school. But my parents kind of 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: was thinking, oh man, people lawyers not making any money. 34 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: You should become a doctor. And I had all these 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: friends who were pre mets, and I decided, okay, well 36 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: let me go. It was a mess, but I figured 37 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: it out. 38 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: It was a pass. 39 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: It was a second pass. And then I realized that, 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: you know, this is not what I wanted to do, 41 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: and I'd go back to plan A. But it was 42 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: too late to really change majors again. So I went 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: back to So I just finished off the biochemistry, just 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: applied to law school, and it kind of worked. It 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: was helpful because you know, there weren't that many biochem 46 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: majors applying to law school, so it was actually probably 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: advantageous to me. 48 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,399 Speaker 1: So I know, it just worked out. Now, your your 49 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: parents they were from where originally. 50 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: My mother was from the Philippines and my father's from me. 51 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: What was his educational background? Like, are you the golden 52 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: boy when you're going to Harvard and yeah, law. 53 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: School, I guess you could say that. I mean she 54 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: had My mother had a master's in chemistry and a 55 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: master's in computer science. Your dad, my dad, I think 56 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: had an sociate's degree and something. He joined the Navy 57 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: at like eighteen or nineteen learned learned on the job 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: that way. Sure. 59 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: And when you were going to Harvard and then you 60 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: go on to Yale Law School, you then of course 61 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: become the editor of the Yale Law chan editor one 62 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: of many. Well while you're an editor, I'm sorry, and 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: then the president of the school's chapter of the Federalist Society, Yes, 64 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: were your parent Was your household a conservative household? No, 65 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: I you know that's planting a flag, I would say, 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: the Federalist Society. 67 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it wasn't much. It wasn't really that much 68 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: of a flag back then in a way because it 69 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: wasn't I mean, the Federal Society didn't have all the 70 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: connotations it had today. It was much smaller, and it 71 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: was just sort of like it was where anybody who 72 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: was basically center or right could basically have a political discussion. 73 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: And those were different times, I think. 74 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: No, So it was not you were sitting there saying 75 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: this is like. 76 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: This was basically it was basically like you know, people 77 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: who was provoted for Reagan. 78 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: Essentially, what was the campus of Yale when you're there 79 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: for law school or either one? What was the campus 80 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: life in the eighties there? 81 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: It was very nice, It was very peaceful, It wasn't 82 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: the only real controversy on the campus at that point 83 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: in time was there were these series of cafeteria workers 84 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: strikes which tended to divide people, and in one of 85 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: people that want to cross picket lines and come into 86 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 2: the law school and some people, you know, said, look, 87 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: we're paying twish we got to come into law school, 88 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: and and it was a little bit divisive to that extent, 89 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 2: and it was it was disruptive of campus life, but 90 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: it didn't last very long. 91 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Vietnam thing in the seventies. 92 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: There wasn't nothing. There was a contract. Now there was, 93 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: and then there were there were these very these encamped, 94 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: very small encampments by today's standard, pushing for divestment of 95 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: companies that did business in South Africa. But it wasn't 96 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: the kind of environment you Yeah, I mean it was, 97 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: it was. It wasn't a big deal. What did you 98 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: think of Reagan? I liked Reagan. I mean I I 99 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: grew up in the seventies and eighties, and I grew 100 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: up in the seventies basically, which was the shadow of 101 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: the sixties, where you still had a lot of people 102 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: thinking that if you just passed the right law and 103 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: came up with the right scheme, you could create nirvana 104 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: in society, and that could be very expensive. And I 105 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: came to the conclusion that people were overdoing it, that 106 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: you know, you kind of have to let things fall 107 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: where they may, and that the free market was sometimes. 108 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: Often there are winners and losers, that. 109 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: There are winners and losers, and that you can't you 110 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: can't manipulate every outcome in society and try to make 111 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: it perfect, because if when you try to do that, 112 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: you basically end up squelching creativity and squelching the economy. 113 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: And I, you know, I became kind of a free marketeer, 114 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: and that's what, you know, I was persuaded. That's how 115 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: I became a Republican. 116 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: Really, But I would assume that your your leaning as 117 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: a free marketeer would include the people played by the rules. 118 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: Too, absolutely, power being absolutely obey regulation. Absolutely, And if 119 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: you would if I had come of political age in 120 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, I would have, you know, I consider 121 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: my Actually, when I was in high school, I considered 122 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: myself a Scoop Jackson Democrat because at that point I 123 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: was anti Republican because of Nixon. I thought Nixon. My 124 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: first political memories were ten or eleven years old watching 125 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: the Watergate hearings, and you know, I found I found Nixon. 126 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: I found Nixon deeply offensive, and I found you know, 127 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 2: and that sort of I mean, I've I've hated corrupt 128 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: politicians ever since. But then the Republican Party kind of 129 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: cleaned up its act, in my view, and then when 130 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: they do that, it seemed like the late seventies and 131 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: it just seemed they, you know, once Nixon was gone, 132 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: things were better, but I felt, you know, I mean, 133 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: it was the era of stagflation and Ted Kennedy was 134 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: pushing wage and price controls, which I thought was absolutely insane. 135 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: You can't regulate the economy that way. And I kind 136 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 2: of drove me, drove me a little to the right. 137 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: And plus, you know, I grew up in Massachusetts, and 138 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: and you know, it's just you get kind of fed 139 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: up with the Liberals at a certain point growing up. 140 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: So I've always been a bit of a contrary and 141 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: you put me in one group, I kind of kind 142 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: of rebel against it and push back on things. And 143 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: that's I guess that's part of the party to me. 144 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: I would love, I said to myself periodically, not often, 145 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: but I said periodically, because because I'm not some crazy 146 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: progressive in one sense, there's things I think there are. 147 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: There are conservative thoughts I think are admirable and practical. 148 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: But I mean I've always thought to myself, you know, 149 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: give me a Republican I could vote for in terms 150 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: of who they are as a person, and then of 151 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: course what their policies are. I can't hand in hand. 152 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: And I always viewed, you know, Reagan and then Bush 153 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: Junior as this guy that was like the guy you 154 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: brought with you to get you into the party. He 155 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: knew Jeff well that he was the front man they opened, 156 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: got the door open for you. Meaning I had zero 157 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: respects for Reagan as a person. Everybody and I know said, 158 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: I just said to you before, what do you think 159 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: of Reagan? And you said the same thing. Everybody I've 160 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: ever spoken to about Reagan said, they go, I like Reagan. 161 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: You know the likability fact. They like Reagan. And I 162 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: have many friends who worked for Reagan, where as I 163 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: got out of college. But my thing was Reagan and 164 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: Bush Junior. I thought to myself, these guys just have 165 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: no right to be president the United States. It's none. 166 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: They are hood ornaments on a vehicle and under the 167 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: hood of that car, or all the other people writing 168 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: the policy, creating the policy, explaining to him the policy. 169 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: He was a host of a show. And I thought 170 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: the same thing. For Bush Junior, I thought he would 171 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: go again eight more years of a guy who's I 172 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: go on the street and find a guy or a 173 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: woman started to be president United States right now rather 174 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: than him. These guys are all functionaries. Am I offending you? 175 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 2: No, I'm not agreeing with you because you're I actually 176 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: thought Reagan had some good instincts. I would prefer more 177 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: intellect actual presidents, There's no question about that. But you 178 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: have to take what you can get. And you know, 179 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: I thought I thought Reagan's overall direction was good. I 180 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: thought George W. Bush I had mixed feelings about because 181 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: I was very much against the Iraq War, although I 182 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: liked him personally. 183 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: How did you feel in twenty sixteen when Trump won 184 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: and of course Hillary lost. Was Hillary's Clinton someone who 185 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: troubled you? 186 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 2: She did? I mean, I didn't like the ethos of 187 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: the Clinton administration. I kind of learned not to like them, 188 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: and I would vote her for her today over Trump, 189 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: knowing what I know today. But you know, at the time, 190 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: I thought that he would not be quite normal, but 191 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: I thought he was like the best we were going 192 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: to be able to do. When I thought that the 193 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: institutions and the people around him would cabin him and 194 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: kind of teach him how to get by. And I 195 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: thought that a normal person would, you know, even if 196 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: they were eccentric, would adapt their behavior to make it 197 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: functional for the job so that they would be remembered well. 198 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: And what happened as I watched that in twenty seventeen, 199 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: is like, this isn't happening. What is wrong with this guy? 200 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: And that's sort of what got me thinking about, well, 201 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: you know, the guy's psychological condition and whether or not 202 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: he was good for the country, and drew some negative 203 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: conclusions after that after watching him. He's worse. Basically everything 204 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 2: is about him. That's the thing that I thought makes 205 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: the difference with politicians who become present and is they 206 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: realize how much the office is greater than they are 207 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: and how much responsibility they have, and it chastens them 208 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: and it makes them more humble in a way. And 209 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 2: with Trump, there's nothing. Because Trump is the most narcissistic 210 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: human being you could ever imagine, and it's all about him. 211 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: Everything is about him. Pathologically, hath alot, He's no, He's 212 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: absolutely is narcissistic personality disorder. He's also antisocial, has an 213 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: antisocial personality disorder. I mean, he's a very very disturbed 214 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: human being. And that's why he could never adapt. He can't. 215 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: He can only he can only get worse, he can't 216 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: get better. 217 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: Well, the thing about him also is that when he 218 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: wins and Hillary loses, I thought to myself, for most 219 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: let's say Republicans were even undecided, even Independence was voting 220 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: against Hillary because of policies that she expounded, or was 221 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: it about her being a woman? 222 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: No, I mean the country will ever vote for a woman. Oh, absolutely, 223 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: I think the country could vote for a woman. I mean, 224 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 2: I think there are some women I think would be 225 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: great presidents. I think, I mean, I don't. I'd want 226 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: to see them more of them in action, like an 227 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: Abigail Spamberger or I think there are some very very 228 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: good women in politics. I think Nikki Haley actually if 229 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: I mean there are things I don't like about her 230 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: and the way she conducted the campaign, there are things 231 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: I loved about her that in the way she conducted 232 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 2: a campaign, I think she actually would be potentially a 233 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 2: very good president. And I think that I think that 234 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: if she had gotten the nomination, which was never going 235 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: to happen, I think there's a good chance she could 236 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: have been resident. So, you know, I don't I don't think. 237 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's certain, no doubt there is 238 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: a certain element of the population that might not vote 239 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: for a woman for you know, because of that she's 240 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: a because she's a woman. But then there's gonna be 241 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 2: a portion of the population that will vote for a 242 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: woman because she's a woman, and maybe that cancels out. 243 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: I don't know. I'd leave that to a you know, 244 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: a very highly sent highly a large sample of a poll. 245 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: And then I think there are you know, the people 246 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: who would not vote for a woman are going to 247 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 2: be people who a probably not going to vote a 248 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: Democrat anyway. So it's I don't, I don't I think 249 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: at this point, I think, you know, a woman comes 250 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: along who is the place, in the right moment, at 251 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 2: the right time, could easily win the presidency. I mean, like, 252 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: look at these three women and who are basically running 253 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: the state of Michigan. Terrific, terrific, terrific politicians, terrific, very smart. 254 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: You know that That's the reason why it's it's good 255 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: to sort of let people percolate because then you can 256 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: see how they conduct themselves in different situations. But you 257 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 2: know that trifecta they have in Michigan. I mean, they're 258 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: a little to the left of me, but but I 259 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: just think like they are excellent public servants. Benson the 260 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: Secretary of State, and Dana Nessel. These are the type 261 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: of people. We need more of these people in politics, 262 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: and you know, I wish we had some on the 263 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: Republican side that you know, don't let me see. 264 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: Let me just say this. I was on vacation with 265 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: my family. We wanted to son dance. We're there at 266 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: stein ericson the lodge and there's Romney and he comes 267 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: in with his family and have brunch or something. And 268 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: he's there by himself of reading the paper waiting for somebody. 269 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: He sees me and I wave high and he stands 270 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: up and shakes my hands. He goes, he goes, don't 271 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: stand here for very long as that I want my 272 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: picture taken with you. And we both laughed and and 273 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: I said, and I chatted with him for like three minutes. 274 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: When I walked away and talked to friends of mine 275 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: and said, the guy's so much more three dimensional than 276 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: they packaged him during the campaigns. He had the worst 277 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: fucking campaign staff you could imagine. And I think to myself, 278 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: why does this party, what is the lure and the 279 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: fascination with Trump? When why not Romney someone like him? 280 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: It's beyond my comprehension. 281 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: And you know, but I think it's I think your 282 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: observation is true about about people that they don't always 283 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: project what they are in private publicly. And I you know, 284 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: I don't know why that is. Maybe maybe he was 285 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: an actor could explain that a little better to me. 286 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: But I mean Romney was that way. Bob Dole was 287 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: that way. People said, you know, people who talked to 288 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: Bob Dole and met him privately said he was funny, warm, relaxed. 289 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: And on television he always was a high school gym teacher. 290 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: He always came off a stiff. So they, you know, 291 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: remember the Saturday Night Live impressions, they used to do 292 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: it him and exactly Bob Dole talking about Bob Dole 293 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: again and and and you know it was just and 294 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: then and and same was true of you know, I've 295 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: become friendly with a lot of people who worked for Hillary. 296 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: And I was friendly with my law partner who passed 297 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: away me rest in peace, Bernie Nusbaum, who is very 298 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: very close to missus Clinton. And you know, basically the 299 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: description age when you is that she is just the 300 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: warmest and just lovely, this person you could just sit 301 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: and have a chat with. But I don't know that 302 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: all of that, that all of that projected on television 303 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: as well. But that said, the attraction of Trump I've 304 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: always found mystifying. He doesn't say anything that's particularly intelligent. 305 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: He doesn't. He can be nasty, he can be funny, 306 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: he can actually be funny, but I don't think he 307 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: actually has a sense of humor in the sense that 308 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: normal people have a sense of humor. I think he 309 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: knows that if he says some things that people will laugh, 310 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: but I don't think he has a sense of irony. 311 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: I think his sense of humor what he thinks is 312 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: funny is mocking people, and that sometimes gets laughter. But 313 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: I don't I don't think he has aol of comedy. 314 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: We Well Rickles, though there would there be, there would 315 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: be twists to it, there was a there was funny, 316 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: actually funny, and and Trump Trump is is funny, but 317 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: he actually doesn't mean to be. At times he has 318 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: no idea why he's making people laugh. And and I 319 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: just don't the attraction of him. I think there's an 320 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: authority terrian streak among a lot of people that they 321 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: basically like him because he is all about himself. He 322 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: projects something that they want to be, which is the 323 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: worst in themselves. He brings out the worst in people 324 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: because they look at him and he doesn't have to 325 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: follow the rules. He just basically says, fuck the rules. 326 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: But he's also. 327 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: Capable of burrowing into and finding his way toward a 328 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: place where he has the least resistance. In his life. 329 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: Trump is someone who he just gets up every day 330 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: and there's no one there to say no. 331 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: Right, There's no one there to say no, because if 332 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: you say no, they're banished. Right, And that's been his 333 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: entire life. And you know, he has two modes of 334 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: operation to get what he wants. He can be extremely flattering, 335 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: but then he can be an incredible bully, and nobody 336 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: wants to deal with the bully, so they just give in. 337 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: And that's part of how he gets what he wants. 338 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, for example, when his trial downtown, 339 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: he gets he got what he wants in certain ways 340 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: that may end up having bit him. But the other 341 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: thing is, I think part of his appeal is that 342 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: he creates a permission structure for people to be their 343 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 2: worst cells because you can let out your anger. These 344 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: people are bad, yeah, fuck them, And he brings out 345 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:13,479 Speaker 2: the worst in people. 346 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: George Conway, if you enjoy conversations with leading political voices. 347 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: Check out my episode with California Representative Adam Schiff. 348 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 3: I felt during the Obama administration and during the first 349 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 3: Obama campaign that a lot of young people were inspired 350 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: the same way Democrats have been inspired by Kennedy and 351 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,959 Speaker 3: Republicans have been inspired by Reagan. 352 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: Now I think that. 353 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 3: They're you know, the vast reaction is just revulsion at 354 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 3: what they see going on. The one positive that comes 355 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 3: out of it, though, is that people have recognized that 356 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: they can no longer sit on the sideline. So I 357 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 3: can't tell you how many people have told me over 358 00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: the last couple of years that they have never been 359 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: politically involved before, but now they realize they have to be. 360 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Adam Schiff, go 361 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, George 362 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: Conway shares the ways in which he agrees with a 363 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: position of the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I'm Alec Baldwin 364 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Early in the 365 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: Trump administration, George Conway was vocal about what he saw 366 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: as instability and chaos within the White House. He was 367 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: instrumental in forming the group Checks and Balances to combat 368 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: the Trump administration's betrayals of bedrock legal norms. Czechs and 369 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: Balances eventually became the Society for the Rule of Law, 370 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: and Conway is its board president. 371 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: This was a group that I formed in twenty eighteen 372 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: because I thought that the Federal Society and other conservative 373 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: legal groups weren't really taking seriously the threats to the 374 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: rule of law that Donald Trump presented. Remember this is 375 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: pre insurrection, pre January sixth, and the real threat there 376 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 2: was that, you know, his attacks on his own attorney 377 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: general and his attacks on courts. And so we formed 378 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: this group to basically speak out about these issues because 379 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: we didn't think that the you know, I mean, the 380 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 2: mainstream conservative legal organizations were too much trying to not 381 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 2: tick off Trump and were busy worrying about placing people 382 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 2: on the judiciary or placing people in the government. So 383 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: we were actually the opposite of that, and we were 384 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: basically we consisted mainly a lot of them were older 385 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: guys who worked in the Reagan administration where they basically said, well, 386 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: this is the conservatism that we had back in the day, 387 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: and then some younger people. So we weren't really into 388 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: judicial appointments. But now we have morphed that group into 389 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: a new group called the Society for the Rule of 390 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: Law Institute, and we've revamped it and we're you know, 391 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: we're totally talking about exactly the threat that we see 392 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: to the rule of law and to democracy that trump Ism, 393 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: the movement, and the way the direction of the conservative 394 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 2: movement is bringing us. 395 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: When you see what Trump and his minions have wrought 396 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: in terms of judicial policy, Roe v. Wade is the 397 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: obvious example. Were you indifferent or do you consider the 398 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade the situation decision of victory? 399 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: Neither. My thing about Roe v. Wade was, Look, if 400 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 2: I were a state legislator in nineteen seventy three, the 401 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: year that Roe was adopted, I would probably have adopted 402 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 2: you know, I probably would have voted for a statue 403 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: that was not dissimilar to what Roe came up with. 404 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: The problem with Roe was that it wasn't judging. It 405 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: was basically the creation of a statutory scheme, and it 406 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: was beyond the can of judges to do and the 407 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: ability of judges to do. And you know, there was 408 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: no there's no clear guidance in the Constitution or even 409 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: a warrant in the Constitution to do it. So I 410 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: always thought that Roe was wrongly decided that said, the 411 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 2: time to overrule it would have been in the years 412 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: immediately following that, And I think the Court missed its 413 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: last chance to do that in the nineteen eighties, and 414 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: the notion of overruling something forty nine years later was 415 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 2: insane and was destined to, you know, create as many 416 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: problems as had been created by the original that basically settled. Yeah, 417 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I mean, I think that there 418 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: was room for sort of cutting back a little bit, 419 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: cutting back what cutting back the scope of the abortion 420 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: and privacy right to what is more typical, say in 421 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: a Western European country, because Row is much more permissive 422 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 2: than what I think a legislative the natural legislative solutions 423 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 2: would have ended up to be. But then you know 424 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 2: what we have now are these states going completely insane 425 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: five ten weeks just which is absolutely crazy. It's just 426 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: not something that can be regulated with bright lines, frankly, 427 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: because of all of the complications that can occur, And 428 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: it was just something that you know, it was damaging 429 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: to the court to get into it, and damaging of 430 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: the court to extract itself out of it. So suddenly 431 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: I believe in incarnalism. Even Ruth Bader Ginsburg had issues 432 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: with Roe v. Wade. Not that she didn't think there 433 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: shouldn't be a right to an abortion that's protected, but 434 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: she believed that Roe, by basically setting forth this a 435 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: detailed scheme, went too far, and what they should have 436 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: done struck down the more extreme statutes and let the 437 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: legislative process take care of itself after that. And I 438 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: always thought she was right because if they've done it 439 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: that way, abortion would never have become the political issue 440 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: that it became, and the courts would have never become 441 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: the political football that they became, and we would be 442 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: better off today. That's all water under the bridge. They 443 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: did what they did, and they did at both times, 444 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: and I think the courts have been damaged by it. 445 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: Now you tilt slightly in that discussion, and you look 446 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: at the court now itself, and I'm you know, I 447 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: view obviously, I'm fully I'm completely enthralled by how Alito 448 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: and Thomas have real liabilities in their marriage. But I wonder, 449 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: what do you think about that? What do you think 450 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 1: about a guy and his wife hanging in the flag upside. 451 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 2: I think it's insane. 452 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: And the other one's wife is a big you know, 453 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: Trump's support and everything, and he's and he and both 454 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: of them getting whacked about all this. 455 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would separate them because I think 456 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 2: they're dissimilar in certain ways. I think you have to 457 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: take each case separately. In the case of Alito, I 458 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 2: understand that it can be difficult for a conservative judge. 459 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: Judges are isolated to begin with. There's a limit to 460 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: what they can say, the limit to who they can 461 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: talk to, limit to who they can hang around with publicly, 462 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: and they can become very isolated any judge. But it's 463 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: particularly true of the conservatives and the Republicans, because you know, 464 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: Washington's basically much a liberal town. And I think that 465 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: there is this sort of persecution complex that sometimes takes 466 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 2: hold of the conservative mind of people who serve in 467 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 2: government in Washington, in particular in the judicial branch. And 468 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: I think that's what happened. I think that just got 469 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 2: out of hand here where people who were you know, 470 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: upset about Trump or putting up signs, and Missus Alito 471 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 2: or and maybe Justice Alito tolerated it basically sought to 472 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: give the finger to everybody by putting a flag upside it, 473 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: which is just absolutely better if she didn't, even better 474 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: if she didn't. It's just yeah, I mean you would. 475 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that if I were if I held 476 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: no public position, you just you know, But to basically 477 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: do that and people knowing that you're that the family 478 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: member is on the Supreme Court, it's just I cannot 479 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: fathom it. 480 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: Well, this hearkens back to when I said emboldened people 481 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: to say whatever they want. Little did he realize it 482 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: would include the spouses of Supreme Court jell Yes. 483 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: And and the Thomas thing is is a bit different. I mean, 484 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: I think so, well, because he's committed actual financial and 485 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: ethical breaches there that you know, whether or not they're 486 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: strictly prohibited by well, there's no judicial ethics rules that 487 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 2: apply to Supreme Court justices. I think, you know, these 488 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 2: filings that he made are completely false, and I think 489 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 2: a case could be made and has been made by 490 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 2: some people, but I don't think it'll ever be brought that. 491 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: You know, those those filings were criminal, you know, even 492 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: making false statements of the government's violation of eighteen USC. 493 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 2: One thousand and one and those you know, if and 494 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: if he didn't pay for to give one of the 495 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: number of examples, you know, they had this guy he 496 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: borrowed money for an r V, a two hundred and 497 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars r V, and then didn't got the 498 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: that the loan forgiven, that's taxable income. If he didn't 499 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 2: report that, that's you know, that's tax fraud. And there 500 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 2: are just some real issues there with Thomas that I found, 501 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: you know, and as someone who has a hired him 502 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: in the past, I just find that just extremely, extremely disturbing. 503 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: The stuff with the wife. On January sixth, I with Ginny. 504 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: I mean, Ginny has all, you know, everybody in the 505 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: conservative move kind of knew that she's a little bit 506 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: out there and has to say the least, you know, 507 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: they could. They kind of discounted her. I mean, I 508 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: think the press on the left tend to overstate her importance. 509 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: She's not that important, you know, her sending emails to 510 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 2: people and so on and so forth. The thing that 511 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 2: really bothers me about Justice Thomas is the financial stuff. 512 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 2: It's really really very troublesome. And if you remember, you 513 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: go back to the the late sixties, early right in 514 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, I think, or nineteen sixty nine, ers 515 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy, I mean Justice Fortis Abe for Abe Forest 516 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: Abe fortis right, and he, you know, he accepted some 517 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: money for I think it was like an honorarium. It 518 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: wasn't even that much money. Even if you if you, 519 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 2: if you, even if you scale it up by inflation, 520 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: I don't think it would get you a two hundred 521 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars RV today. Maybe it would, I 522 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 2: don't know, but you know, the Nixon administration went to 523 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: Chief Justice Warren and said we're going to prosecute this. 524 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: And Earl Warren and his colleagues went to Fordest saying 525 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: you need to resign, and they made him resign. And 526 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 2: there was who was who appointed him, Fortis Fortest was 527 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: a Johnson appointee and he was eventually he actually I 528 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: think it was a yeah, he was. It was a 529 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: Johnson appointee, and you know, in close to President Johnson, 530 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: and and you know, Nixon and his people saw an 531 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 2: opportunity to get a seat on the court, and at 532 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: that point in time, it was not tolerable for a 533 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: justice to take that kind of take money from somebody 534 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: who had a case in a lower court somewhere. It 535 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: wasn't even there wasn't even a direct conflict. And you know, 536 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: if you applied the fordest standard today, Thomas would be gone. 537 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: George Conway, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend 538 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on the 539 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When 540 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: we come back, George Conway shares why he made a 541 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: rather large donation to the Biden victory Fund. I'm Alec 542 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. I spoke 543 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: with George Conway just days before Trump's hush money trial 544 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: in New York City reached a verdict. Conway's opinions hold 545 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: significant weight from many conservatives. I wanted to know if 546 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: there was ever anyone He provided his stamp of approval 547 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: for that. 548 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: He later regretted Donald Trump. Okay, I mean you know, judiciary, No, 549 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think so, I don't. I mean 550 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: I never you know, I don't. I don't think you 551 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 2: know when you don't know exactly how it's reading tea 552 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: leaves And I think I've supported most of all of 553 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: the Republican nominees, and I don't really have issues with 554 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: I don't think that I have issues with Democratic nominees either. 555 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: I would I would be you know, my view would 556 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: be if if the person's qualified and selected by the president, 557 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: unless they have views that are so extreme that they 558 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: can't be acceptable in the normal course of of what 559 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: we see in constitutional discussion, I would vote for you know, 560 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: I would have voted for Ruth Bader Ginsberg. I would 561 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 2: have voted for Sonya Soto my R. I don't think 562 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: there are any of these people who have been nominated. 563 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: The only one I ever opposed was Harriet not that, 564 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: not that you know, not that my seal of endorsement matters. 565 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 2: I was just a guy, you know, practicing law in 566 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: New York. But the one time I ever I did 567 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: think that someone was not qualified to be on the 568 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: Supreme Court was when President George W. Bush nominated Harriet 569 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: Myers to become a Supreme Court justice. She was his 570 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: White House counsel. And there was just no evidence that 571 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 2: she knew anything, you know, that she had any while 572 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: you know, she was a member of the bar, she 573 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: was a member of a big law firm in Dallas, 574 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 2: you know. But when you looked up at things she 575 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: had written, it was shocking that she could not really 576 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: express herself. She hadn't really litigated, as far as I 577 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: could tell that much. And she it turned out that 578 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: they withdrew her, not because of the opposition among conservatives 579 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: and others to her nomination. She couldn't be prepped. She 580 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: could hold a lot of jobs, but being on the 581 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, she was not qualified for that. 582 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: As we learned when I was at GW study in 583 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: political science with one of our professors said they were 584 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: very kind and respectful toward each other. So the worst 585 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: thing you could say is the Senator would say, I 586 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: have the least amount of higher regard from my colleague 587 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: from Virginia. And now, in the time we have left, 588 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: I want to obviously go into the Carville Madelon nature 589 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: of your life and so you're in that rarefied sphere. 590 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: And where did you meet her? Where did you first meet? 591 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: We met it out in the Hampton's one time. God 592 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: it was doomed. No, we had twenty good years. 593 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I'm well aware of how many kids. You 594 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: guys have four four kids, that's great, that's great now. 595 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: But when you're there and you're going through that process, 596 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: and I see this to you, and I don't know you, 597 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: but I mean i've actually I see you on TV 598 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: all the time, and what I was really intrigued about 599 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: you is a is your evolution. You've evolved over time, 600 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: And no. 601 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: I don't really think I've evolved that much. I think 602 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: that everyone else kind of evolved in a bad direction. 603 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think my views on substantive 604 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: issues or my temperament has changed really for a very 605 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: long time. I just think that what I react to 606 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: is what I would have reacted to if it happened 607 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: ten years ago or twenty years ago, I'd be where 608 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: I am. 609 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: But these two points go hand in hand to me, 610 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: which is that a while ago, we talked about Trump 611 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: and his nature and I thought to myself, how does 612 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: Trump maintain his support? And they are key business people, 613 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: billionaires with no obstructions to their giving, and they can 614 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: just pump all the money and they can buy Trump 615 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: the White House, and they want Trump in there because 616 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: unlike other conservative or Republican presidential administrations, they look like 617 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: what Trump will provide them is beyond their wildest dreams. 618 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 2: But I think they're mistaken, and I make this point regularly. 619 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: I think that the reason why the United States of 620 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: America has as strong an economy as it still has 621 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: is its stability. It's political stability and the rule of law. 622 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: And I think that these people who think that well, 623 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: Trump is good for them because they might get capital 624 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: gains taxes are being very very short sighted. They're being 625 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 2: morally they're morally bereft, but they're all so being very 626 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: economically and politically shortsighted because I think that Trump, if 627 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: he's elected, will create political disorder. I think the country 628 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: will become ungovernable, ungovernable and vulnerable to you know, I 629 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: mean capital flight and human capital and financial capital flight. 630 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: And I don't think that's good for the economy. And 631 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: that's I think people underestimate that. 632 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: Do you ever think you could be you? You could find 633 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: it in your soul to donate money. You give a 634 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: very large donation to who was the nine hundred and 635 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: thirty two thousand dollars donations is coming out of my kids. 636 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: Drust nine and twenty nine thousand, six hundred. But who's 637 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: counting to the Biden Victory Fund, which is is an 638 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 2: amalgamation of the Biden campaign and various the National Democrats. 639 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: Ate supporting that kind of work. I maybe not him personally. 640 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: No, I mean no, I support I Look, I mean 641 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: I disagree with him on many issues. I think if 642 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: you gave me a policy menu, checklist, and where I 643 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: come out would be different on a lot of things, 644 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,719 Speaker 2: although frankly in foreign policy, I think he's actually done 645 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: a pretty good job. But the different that the thing 646 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: about it is is that the difference is between the 647 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: danger that I think is presented by his opponent is 648 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 2: is so great that I think there's there there's it's 649 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: a binary choice between those two, and I think there's 650 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: there's only one choice for the survival of the of 651 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: this democracy. 652 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: You're excellent to law school, Yes, yeah, so I g 653 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: w yes. 654 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 3: So. 655 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: My my joke is that your kids who are in 656 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: the other room reading and doing their homework, and you 657 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: and she are at the kitchen table arguing, and you're 658 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: whipping out all these law books to each other. 659 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: No, No, it was never like that. We agree. You know, 660 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: if on a lot of things we agree and we 661 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: still agree, it's just that I I just think that 662 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 2: I just think that Trump has drawn people off course 663 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: and and and that's not you know that, that's not 664 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 2: I don't want to get into the personal stuff. But 665 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: that's not that's not that's not what that story is about. 666 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: Maybe she feels that I don't know on substance issues, 667 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 2: I don't know that we disagree that much. And I 668 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 2: don't understand how people who I otherwise might agree with 669 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: can justify supporting someone who tried to overturn the Constitution 670 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 2: of the United States, to give one minor example. But again, 671 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 2: that's just I think that a lot of Republicans just 672 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: went off the rails and they're just forgetting first principles 673 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: and and they're just they've they've allowed partisanship to basically 674 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: consume them. And I was, you know, I was a 675 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 2: Republican because Republicans. Republicans tended to support things they've they 676 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 2: more closely approximated my views. Okay, And that's why you 677 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 2: vote for candidates. So you try to figure out who's 678 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: going to do what you think most likely comports with 679 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 2: where you are, and you may change your mind because 680 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: you don't know everything and these people actually know more 681 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 2: than you. But that's what that's what you do. But 682 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: then when you have also you know, there's just how 683 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: can you support some somebody who's just so bad because 684 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: that you being bad morally affects how you govern. And 685 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: that's another aspect of Trump is it's just I don't 686 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: know how you know, people with the complete lack of 687 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: moral character of Donald Trump should not be in public life, period. 688 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 2: And that's my view, and I don't care, you know, 689 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: I'd say that of a Democrat. I'd say that of anybody. 690 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: Listen, Being a Democrat is not an easy road to 691 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: hoe these days, because it's like, if Biden wins, which 692 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: is looking dicey, but if Biden wins, then he drops 693 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,760 Speaker 1: out mid term. I mean, I know a lot of people, 694 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: let's cut the bullshit. I know a lot of people 695 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: who are terrified by the idea of Harris becoming the president. 696 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: They don't think she's ready for that at all, and 697 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: they're worried that with the Biden things, they don't want 698 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: to vote for Biden because if it doesn't make it 699 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: all the way she becomes president. This is very nervous 700 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: about that. Does that make any sense to you without 701 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: any of you making any assessments about her. 702 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 2: I'm not going to make an assessment about her, I think. 703 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: But you see how people feel that way. 704 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: I think it's nuts you do, right, because basically anybody 705 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: is going to be better than Donald Trump. Right, I'd 706 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 2: vote for you over over Donald Trump. I mean that 707 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 2: enough money in it? There's not enough money. I got 708 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: I need a lot of money. 709 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: But the other thing I want to ask you that 710 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: if we're getting off to think about your wife and everything, 711 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: is that So here we are in late May of 712 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: the election year. How are things looking right now? I'm 713 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: not saying you have to call it, but the election. Yeah, well, 714 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm fully confident. I've been saying this. 715 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: This is not something I just pulling out at one 716 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 2: fifty eight pm today as I think Trump's going to 717 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 2: blow it. I think the way that the Biden people 718 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 2: will beat Trump is to make him the issue. And 719 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 2: Trump cannot help but make himself the issue. And basically 720 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 2: there's a feedback loop where you just basically you point 721 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 2: out this man is nuts, he's psycho, and you point 722 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: out the crazy things that he does that makes him mad, 723 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: and it makes him say and do crazier things. And 724 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 2: then you point that out and I think that's actually 725 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 2: what what they're going to try to do in this 726 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 2: debate that they've agreed to at the end of June. 727 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 2: I think that Biden people completely get the psychology of 728 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, and I think they have not. They are beginning. 729 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: You can see signs of what they're doing. It's going 730 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 2: to be I think the way you beat Donald Donald 731 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: Trump is basically conduct the campaign as a syop, and 732 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 2: he manipulate his brain and he's very He's so manipulable. 733 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: He's uncontrollable, but he is manipulable as his own people 734 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 2: find out. They try to manipulate them, but they can't 735 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: control them. And so what you do is you can 736 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 2: manipulate him into being out of control. 737 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: So with the Supreme Court basically punting the January sixth trials, 738 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: or at least for them, think the Supreme Court wants 739 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: him to be president, obviously, No, I think. 740 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 2: A lot of people are overreading what the Supreme Court 741 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: did there. I don't think that's what they're doing. I 742 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 2: think I would have preferred them to have taken a 743 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 2: different course, namely not to have taken this case. But 744 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 2: I think they really do. They really are looking at 745 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 2: this in sort of an apt academic way, and they're saying, okay, well, 746 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: there are some things obviously that a president can be 747 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 2: prosecuted for, but there have to be limits, because what 748 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 2: if I don't know, what if a Republican Congress were 749 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 2: elected and along with President Biden reelected, and the Republican 750 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 2: Congress pas some bill and somehow managed to get it 751 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: over the president's veto. This is a wild hypothetical. It 752 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: would never happen. Where it said that if the president 753 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 2: didn't propose a balanced budget by January one every year, 754 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: I'm just making something up. You know, he shall go 755 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: to jail, you know after his term. You know, there 756 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 2: are just some things that you could you could just 757 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 2: see crazy laws that would be that could be passed, 758 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: and crazy the applications of existing laws that could have 759 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 2: had that would that would impinge upon the Article two duties. 760 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: What hush hush money. 761 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 2: Oh he's going down, you think, so, yeah, he's going down? 762 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 2: Really yeah? 763 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:54,479 Speaker 3: Wrong. 764 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: But you can get people in here who were so 765 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this to flatter you. You can get 766 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: people here who are less influential than you are, and 767 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: they're so cagy. 768 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,839 Speaker 2: They're like, well, you know, look, I look, I mean, 769 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not saying when I say that, I 770 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: accept the risk that you can't predict what twelve you're 771 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 2: Michael are going to do in a room. But to 772 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: unpack my I think he's going down is I just 773 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 2: think it's highly likely that they're going to be a 774 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 2: conviction on some are all of the thirty four counts. 775 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 2: And I think there's only a small possibility but not 776 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 2: non zero, I mean ten twenty percent maybe that that 777 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 2: there could be a hung jury. I don't think there 778 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 2: is any chance that there would be all out acquittal, right, Okay, 779 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 2: So that's what I mean when I say you know 780 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 2: he's going down, I think it's like, Okay, I think 781 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 2: that you know. I'm going to the Rangers game tonight. 782 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 2: I think the Rangers are going to win, but you 783 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: know who. 784 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: Knows my Thanks to George Conway. Here's the Thing is 785 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: recorded at CDM Studios. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, 786 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 787 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich. Hi'm Alec Baldwin. 788 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.