Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. We're
Speaker 1: between seasons right now, but I couldn't wait to share
Speaker 1: with you this conversation I had with one of my
Speaker 1: favorite actors and favorite people about her latest project and
Speaker 1: about the brave choices she's made throughout her extraordinary career.
Speaker 1: Like so many of you listening, I've been a fan
Speaker 1: of Francis McDorman from the first time I saw her
Speaker 1: on the big screen. Many of you probably know her
Speaker 1: from her breakout performance in the nineteen ninety six film Fargo,
Speaker 1: written and directed by the Cohen Brothers, that is, her
Speaker 1: husband Joel Cohen and his brother Ethan. In that movie,
Speaker 1: Francis plays Marge Gunderson, a very pregnant, very down to
Speaker 1: earth police chief in small town Minnesota. I'd be very
Speaker 1: surprised if our suspect was from Brainard. Yeah, and I'll
Speaker 1: tell you what from his footprint. He looks like a
Speaker 1: big fella. You see something down there, chief? No, I
Speaker 1: just think I'm gonna bear jeez kargie. Yeah, I'm fine,
Speaker 1: it's just morning sickness. Since then, she's played many other
Speaker 1: unforgettable roles on stage and screen, including her award winning
Speaker 1: performances in Olive Kitteridge, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, and
Speaker 1: Nomad Land. Francis has also been a vocal advocate for
Speaker 1: expanding access to more women and people of color in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: At the twenty eighteen OSCAR ceremony, she made headlines with
Speaker 1: her acceptance speech for Best Actress when she invited every
Speaker 1: female nominee in every category to stay and with her.
Speaker 1: The actors, Marilick, you do it. Everybody else will come on.
Speaker 1: The filmmakers, the producers, the directors, the writers, the cinematographers,
Speaker 1: the composers, with the songwriters, the designers. I have two
Speaker 1: words to leave with you tonight, ladies and gentlemen. Inclusion writer.
Speaker 1: That's when many of us first heard the term inclusion writer.
Speaker 1: Something she encouraged that actors put in their contracts, stipulating
Speaker 1: that a certain proportion of the cast or crew must
Speaker 1: be women or people of color. Now Francis is up
Speaker 1: for another Oscar, this time for the remarkable film Women Talking,
Speaker 1: which she produced and appears in. The film is based
Speaker 1: on a novel by Miriam Taves and was written and
Speaker 1: directed by Sarah POLLI we had so much to talk about,
Speaker 1: and I'm delighted to share with you my conversation with
Speaker 1: Francis McDorman. Hello Francis, Hello Hillary. I remember, God was
Speaker 1: it seven years ago, twenty fifteen, we watched the Academy
Speaker 1: Awards together. Oh, at our mutual great friends home. I
Speaker 1: remember that too, you know what? And may I call
Speaker 1: you Hillary, Secretary Clinton? Yes, you better, Yes, indeed, thank
Speaker 1: you so very much, because I remember because we have
Speaker 1: a long tradition of being very snarky while watching. And
Speaker 1: I remember I started talking about somebody's outfit, which I
Speaker 1: love to do. It's a fashion show, right, it's a thing. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's kind of part of the sport. And I remember
Speaker 1: looking over at you and you looked at me quizzically,
Speaker 1: and I realized, oh, I have to explain that part
Speaker 1: of it is just being b I tch y. It's
Speaker 1: like sports commentary. Are you going this year? Our film
Speaker 1: has been invited, I would hope, So I want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about that, but first let's get into
Speaker 1: the important stuff like are you going? Well? You know what, Hillary,
Speaker 1: it is something to talk about because it's a weird
Speaker 1: in my little pocket of the universe, called the film industry,
Speaker 1: which is, in fact, I want to remind everyone a
Speaker 1: very small part of the larger entertainment business that TV
Speaker 1: show is not my favorite part of it. I call
Speaker 1: it the convention. Our family calls it the award convention.
Speaker 1: That's a good description. It's like a car show, yes,
Speaker 1: And they roll us out every year and then they
Speaker 1: roll us back in the garage, and I kind of
Speaker 1: feel like I couldn't have had a more wonderful time
Speaker 1: over the years going. But every time that I or
Speaker 1: some project I've been involved in is invited, I reassess it.
Speaker 1: And so I'm still reassessing that the film's going. And
Speaker 1: I think a really important thing for us, Sarah Paully
Speaker 1: the director, and Dedie Gardner are producing partner, is that
Speaker 1: the invitation that we've been extended. We're very interested in
Speaker 1: making that a very loud statement about the omissions that
Speaker 1: have been made this year. No women were nominated for director,
Speaker 1: were they? And people of color? It is so I mean,
Speaker 1: so bald that it's kind of hard to ignore. Well,
Speaker 1: there's no ignoring it. There's no ignoring it. There's no
Speaker 1: ignoring it. And I think why I'm saying that because
Speaker 1: when you know, when this podcast has aired. In our
Speaker 1: conversation is you know, a part of the conversation that
Speaker 1: other people are having about the film, we're going to
Speaker 1: be already engaged in a process of saying, if you
Speaker 1: are interested in the success of Women Talking, you're also
Speaker 1: interested in the success of The Woman King by Gina
Speaker 1: prince Blythewood Exactly. You're interested in the success of till
Speaker 1: you're interested in the success of many films that were
Speaker 1: made this year that were helmed by women, and they
Speaker 1: had the exact same interest in changing the industries as
Speaker 1: Dedy Gardner, Sarah Paulie, and Francis McDorman have. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love that, Francis, we're talking about your most recent movie,
Speaker 1: Women Talking, because the film is so extraordinary to me.
Speaker 1: It's what film should be explained for our listeners who
Speaker 1: haven't seen it yet. I hope there's not too many
Speaker 1: of them, but there will be some sort of what
Speaker 1: the core of the story is about. It's based on
Speaker 1: a true story, and it's based on a horrific event
Speaker 1: that happened in a Mennonite community in Bolivia that was
Speaker 1: reported on actually in vice. It turned out that for
Speaker 1: over several years, the men of the community used a
Speaker 1: cow tranquilizer. They spread it into women's rooms a nest
Speaker 1: size the women, and while they were unconscious they the
Speaker 1: women were raped over and over over several years, females
Speaker 1: horrifically from three years to eighty years old. And when
Speaker 1: the women woke up, battered and bruised, not understanding what
Speaker 1: had happened, some of them pregnant. They were told by
Speaker 1: the men of the community and the male leaders of
Speaker 1: the community that it was in their imagination or they
Speaker 1: were being tempted by the devil. They were basically, as
Speaker 1: the term is now, gas lit. So finally some of
Speaker 1: the men were caught actually climbing into the one of
Speaker 1: the women's rooms, and eight of the men were taken
Speaker 1: by the community and locked into a shed. Finally, the
Speaker 1: Bolivion government found out about the incident and took them
Speaker 1: to jail. So what Miriam Tave's book Women Talking did
Speaker 1: is took it from that moment forward and said what
Speaker 1: if What if a trial did not happen, but the
Speaker 1: women decided to vote while the men were away to
Speaker 1: post bail for the men that were jailed. What if
Speaker 1: the women voted to either do nothing to forgive the
Speaker 1: men as they were being asked to do by the
Speaker 1: patriarchal leaders, to stay and fight the men for what
Speaker 1: they had done, or to leave and begin a new
Speaker 1: world somewhere else. And so Miriam's book starts with that
Speaker 1: vote and the women gathering in the hayloft to discuss forgiveness, complicity, retribution, revenge,
Speaker 1: the future. And this is a group of women who
Speaker 1: have been kept illiterate because they're not educated past a
Speaker 1: certain point. So what I love about what Miriam did
Speaker 1: is she shows a group of women who, yes, they're illiterate,
Speaker 1: but their imaginations are broad, and their sense of faith
Speaker 1: and justice is deepened, you know, has equanimity. You know.
Speaker 1: I read the book when it came out and it
Speaker 1: just was so shocking and painful. And then the way
Speaker 1: you portray it in the film is to me just
Speaker 1: an extraordinary You look into human nature and the kind
Speaker 1: of sense of justice that can be ignited even in
Speaker 1: people who have been literally separated from the world. I
Speaker 1: thought it was just an extraordinary film. Thank you, And
Speaker 1: I have to tell you so much credit goes to
Speaker 1: Sarah Pauly and her not only her skill as a storyteller,
Speaker 1: she also has a very personal sense of justice. She
Speaker 1: has a long history of political activism, so she understands
Speaker 1: it as a piece of I like to call it
Speaker 1: good propaganda, because I think there is good propaganda. I
Speaker 1: think that's it ignites conversation, and you know, one of
Speaker 1: the great things we've been able to do with the film.
Speaker 1: You know, films are meant to be seen in a
Speaker 1: dark room with other people with disparate political beliefs and
Speaker 1: religious faiths and backgrounds. But they come into that space
Speaker 1: and they share the same story. That's the beauty of film,
Speaker 1: and then they talk about it, and then they talk
Speaker 1: about it and they can't leave the lobby for a while.
Speaker 1: Those are the best moments, right when you're suspended in
Speaker 1: that space for a while with a group of strangers. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: that's not happening as often as we would like it too.
Speaker 1: But what we have been able to do is have
Speaker 1: a lot of screenings on college campuses and invite professors
Speaker 1: who are not teaching film, but they're teaching religious studies, ethics,
Speaker 1: gender studies, and the conversations that are happening out of
Speaker 1: those screenings have been delicious, absolutely delicious. And I was
Speaker 1: also interested in the character that you played. I mean
Speaker 1: it was a small role in the film, but a
Speaker 1: very powerful one. And without being a spoiler, you know,
Speaker 1: your character is severe, intimidating, resistant to change, really a
Speaker 1: defender of the status quo, someone who has bought, hook
Speaker 1: line and sinker everything that she'd been indoctrinated by and
Speaker 1: lived throughout her long life. Was she hard to play
Speaker 1: for you? You know, Hillary, I really am so appreciative
Speaker 1: of the way Sarah cast me in this film and
Speaker 1: that we kind of cast me together as Scarface Jans.
Speaker 1: First of all, just who wouldn't want to play a
Speaker 1: character called Scarface Jans. That being said, more importantly, there
Speaker 1: were three positions posited in the film. As I said before,
Speaker 1: do nothing to forgive the men, stay and fight, the
Speaker 1: men and leave. There were three matriarchs in the Hayloft, Scarface,
Speaker 1: Agatta and Greta. All the women of the community, three
Speaker 1: hundred or more women in the community. Their fates were
Speaker 1: being decided by these three families. Scarface represents a large
Speaker 1: group of the women in that community who, for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: fear complacency, the status quo, whatever it is. They have
Speaker 1: chosen to do nothing and forgive because they believe that
Speaker 1: their place in heaven is threatened if they don't. So
Speaker 1: I felt that by casting someone who an audience expects
Speaker 1: to turn up more in the conversation, it keeps that
Speaker 1: voice alive. By casting me, even though what I love
Speaker 1: is also that Scarface Jans and her family, her daughter
Speaker 1: and granddaughter don't have a lot of dialogue. Most of
Speaker 1: our scenes are just seeing us in our life, silently
Speaker 1: in our life, going about our life, with the pressure
Speaker 1: of this decision hanging over us. But I think it's
Speaker 1: really important to keep their voice alive, those other women's
Speaker 1: voice alive. Well, it's a very realistic set of options,
Speaker 1: and we are presented with them every single day of
Speaker 1: our life as women do nothing, stay and fight or
Speaker 1: walk away exactly, Oh, Hillary, don't you know it? I
Speaker 1: do know it. It's sort of you know, it's just
Speaker 1: a reflection. Even though this is a community that most
Speaker 1: of us will never experience, never be part of, it
Speaker 1: is engaged in a universal decision making. Absolutely, it's embroidered
Speaker 1: in a very tight, cruel work of our life. If
Speaker 1: you want to use a metaphor, it's exactly right. Well,
Speaker 1: the last question I wanted to ask about the film,
Speaker 1: and you've mentioned Sarah Paully, the director, the screenwriter. Was
Speaker 1: it one of your most unusual but gratifying experiences to
Speaker 1: work essentially with an all women team. How did that
Speaker 1: feel different to you than you're career in so many
Speaker 1: other settings. Yeah, So I read the book, I optioned
Speaker 1: the book. I immediately took it to Didi Gardner, who
Speaker 1: is one of the partners in a company called Plan
Speaker 1: B because I had been really interested in the films
Speaker 1: they've made, Moonlight, Twelve Years of Slave, So I sent
Speaker 1: the book to did. She immediately got in touch. We
Speaker 1: got in a room together and she was just passionate
Speaker 1: and one of the people that we first started talking
Speaker 1: about with Sarah Pauly, because she really is an autour.
Speaker 1: She takes it from the first step to the last step.
Speaker 1: So we got in touch with her and she said,
Speaker 1: I have three children, I love my life in Toronto.
Speaker 1: How do we do this so that I can have
Speaker 1: a life? And we said, we're really interested in that.
Speaker 1: So let's have short days, let's have childcare, Let's find
Speaker 1: the farm, live on the farm, shoot it on the farm,
Speaker 1: do it in the summer when you're kids are off
Speaker 1: of school. And we were able to accomplish maybe not
Speaker 1: all those things, but because we were a female led organization,
Speaker 1: mostly family oriented, it changed our perception of everything. We're
Speaker 1: taking a quick break. Coming up, Francis shares how she
Speaker 1: went from supporting actor to leading protagonist on screen and
Speaker 1: in her own life. Now, let's switch gears a bit
Speaker 1: and talk about how you got into acting in the
Speaker 1: first place. Where did that come from? I like starting
Speaker 1: with when I was in second grade to kind of
Speaker 1: lead up to this point in my professional life. You know,
Speaker 1: I lived in small rural cities towns most of my life,
Speaker 1: and my local library had a summer program where if
Speaker 1: you read ten books, you got your polaroid put on
Speaker 1: the corkboard at the end of the summer. And I
Speaker 1: read ten books, most of them were biographies of women
Speaker 1: explorers and writers, and I got my picture put up
Speaker 1: on the corkboard Hillary and it never stopped. And then
Speaker 1: there was a point in my when I was a
Speaker 1: teenager when literature that had already become my fantasy life
Speaker 1: became a social life. When I started reading Shakespeare and
Speaker 1: an English teacher said, let's put on some scenes after school,
Speaker 1: And then I realized that literature could become something that
Speaker 1: was actually with other people in a room, and then
Speaker 1: that grew into my becoming an actor. How did you
Speaker 1: translate those experiences as first a child, then a tea
Speaker 1: major into the awareness that hey, I can do that.
Speaker 1: Were there people in addition to the teacher who encouraged you,
Speaker 1: where their role models that you saw out in the
Speaker 1: world that you said to yourself, Hey, that's what I
Speaker 1: want to be. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It started
Speaker 1: with these very rare individuals who in the educational system
Speaker 1: because I, you know, I come from a working class background,
Speaker 1: and so I went through public school, you know, in
Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, and those teachers recognized because I
Speaker 1: was a very quiet, shy person. I wasn't one of
Speaker 1: those children who want everybody said, oh, she'll be an actor,
Speaker 1: because I was always app dancing or something. Now, I
Speaker 1: was always in the corner reading, But there was something
Speaker 1: about it was where my intellect lies. I have an
Speaker 1: intuitive intellect. I don't necessarily have a you know something
Speaker 1: that my husband Joel and I are always talking about.
Speaker 1: I bring him towards the corporal and he brings me
Speaker 1: towards the intellectual. But there's an intelligence there, and I
Speaker 1: think that you know, in public school, when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, with things like wood shop and car mechanics
Speaker 1: and technological classes, everyone's intellect was found. If you couldn't
Speaker 1: pass math because you just did not have that kind
Speaker 1: of brain, but someone saw you build a bookcase or
Speaker 1: put together a car engine, they understood that you had
Speaker 1: that kind of intellect, and then they could they shepherd
Speaker 1: you towards those kind of futures. So I had teachers
Speaker 1: who saw that I was not passing math and I
Speaker 1: was not passing science, but I couldn't stay out of
Speaker 1: the books in English and all kinds of literature was
Speaker 1: my candy, was my joy. It wasn't just from a
Speaker 1: theatrical point of view, but they would ask me if
Speaker 1: I wanted to stay after class and read other Shakespeare plays.
Speaker 1: They would give me books to read. When I was
Speaker 1: in college, there was no theory or major. I was
Speaker 1: the only theater major in college. But the head of
Speaker 1: the theater program, doctor Judy, said, you need to go
Speaker 1: to graduate school. You need to be among your peers
Speaker 1: and have three more years to test yourself against this
Speaker 1: thing you love. And then I went to drama school.
Speaker 1: At Yale, and I was given the opportunity to think
Speaker 1: of myself as an artist. For three years, I went
Speaker 1: on full scholarship, I had work study, I had to
Speaker 1: work my way through that. But by the time I
Speaker 1: got out of that seven years, I believed to myself
Speaker 1: and I quickly started had to do a past's Blue
Speaker 1: Ribbon commercial to play the rent, but I did it
Speaker 1: as an actor. I paid my rent as an actor. Oh,
Speaker 1: I love that. And you have played a series of
Speaker 1: iconic women that we all know and we think about.
Speaker 1: Was that something that just kind of evolved? I sank.
Speaker 1: You know, here we are at a certain age, right, Hillary,
Speaker 1: I'm sixty five. Love of acting started when I was fourteen,
Speaker 1: so I've done it for fifty years, let's say. And
Speaker 1: I would say the first half of my professional career
Speaker 1: I played supporting roles to male protagonists, especially in film,
Speaker 1: not on stage. Stage has always offered female actors a
Speaker 1: wider range of three dimensional characters, but the majority of
Speaker 1: the work I did in film was supporting roles. And
Speaker 1: I think that because I was really born to be
Speaker 1: a leading actor on stage. That's kind of what I
Speaker 1: was trained to do, is play the cannon of all
Speaker 1: those Lady Macbeth Clytemnestra had a gobbler, all the ones
Speaker 1: that you you know that you would read on on
Speaker 1: Glenda Jackson's resume. Yes, but I think that I got
Speaker 1: very very good at playing supporting roles, as many women
Speaker 1: do in our lives, not just on stage and film,
Speaker 1: but in my life. I boarded one of the best
Speaker 1: filmmakers of our generation. And then when our son graduated
Speaker 1: from high school about a year before that, I knew
Speaker 1: that I would be bereafed. Being introduced to my son
Speaker 1: and being privy to his becoming an adult is really
Speaker 1: the greatest gift of my life. So I knew that
Speaker 1: I would be bereft and I needed to focus on
Speaker 1: something else to get out of his way. And so
Speaker 1: that's when I optioned all of Kittridge and started developing that,
Speaker 1: and that's when I started playing leading roles in film
Speaker 1: and I have since then. What a creative way to
Speaker 1: deal with your empty nest syndrome. Yeah, I love that
Speaker 1: because you loved being a mom and you loved taking
Speaker 1: care of a house. I mean, you've I've read that,
Speaker 1: You've said that before. It's I have to say, let's
Speaker 1: face it. It's sometimes a better hobby than a full
Speaker 1: time job. I really like it as a high. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's like, well, somebody else, Like I'm not going to
Speaker 1: go over there and pick up that anymore. Somebody else,
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to train myself not to pick
Speaker 1: that up anymore. But I think, yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: there's something about becoming the leading protagonist in your life.
Speaker 1: Is there's something kind of metaphorical about it. You did
Speaker 1: and you have and you know, when I think about
Speaker 1: the iconic women that you've played, Marge Gunderson and Fargo,
Speaker 1: Olive Kitteridge, Fern in nomad Land, they all seem in
Speaker 1: their own ways, you know, very iconoclastic, eccentric, quirky, you know,
Speaker 1: in Three Billboards, obviously outraged. I mean, there's just strong emotion,
Speaker 1: but also a sense of commitment to living a life
Speaker 1: on her own terms. How do you think about these
Speaker 1: characters in relation to your own life right now? When
Speaker 1: I first came to New York, Killery and I was
Speaker 1: offered a meeting with the casting director, she sat me
Speaker 1: down and she said, here's some things you need to know.
Speaker 1: You got to get that tooth fixed. I had a
Speaker 1: little chip in my front tooth. She said, you have
Speaker 1: to learn how to use some makeup and wear high heels,
Speaker 1: because you'd make a great pioneer woman. But they're not
Speaker 1: making that many Westerns these days. So I went out
Speaker 1: her door not very happy, and spent a few days
Speaker 1: thinking about that, and lo and behold. I think if
Speaker 1: you look at those characters that you've mentioned, Fern, Mildred Pays,
Speaker 1: Marge Gunderson, Olive Kittridge, there's something about them that I
Speaker 1: think belies her advice, that they are those kind of women,
Speaker 1: a kind of American iconic women who they're like standing stones, right,
Speaker 1: They're like those rocks out in the desert somewhere. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of what they characters represent.
Speaker 1: But I also I'm really interested also in that. So
Speaker 1: all of Kitch was adapted from the novel by Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Strout by Jane Anderson. Nomad Land was created by Chloe Jow.
Speaker 1: Both Marge Gunderson and Mildred Hayes were written by Joel
Speaker 1: and Nathan Cohen and Martin mcdonnough, respectively. For me, those
Speaker 1: all the parts were written with me in mind, and
Speaker 1: not only me in mind. Francis McDorman. But the characters
Speaker 1: I played, so Fern was building off Mildred Hayes, Marge
Speaker 1: Gunderson and all of Kittridge as much as other characters
Speaker 1: in kind of modern classic iconography female iconography. Right, They're
Speaker 1: all built on these iconic figures, not just me, right, right.
Speaker 1: It wasn't Francis McDorman. It was like these iconic ideas
Speaker 1: of woman, and in some cases, like with Mildred Hayes,
Speaker 1: I actually I thought of John Wayne a lot when
Speaker 1: I was playing the part. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: kind of trying to the idea of how can you
Speaker 1: attach to these characters that have to take you through
Speaker 1: this landscape. I've always thought of my job as I'm
Speaker 1: in a service position. I'm serving the role that's offered,
Speaker 1: and that as I've gotten older, I'm able to help
Speaker 1: develop those characters with the storytellers more and more. But
Speaker 1: I'm serving the characters as much as I'm serving the story.
Speaker 1: That's such a good way of putting it. I mean,
Speaker 1: because these characters deserve to be seen and heard, and
Speaker 1: you have done that so beautifully that these women become
Speaker 1: almost part of our consciousness, our collective consciousness, and I hope.
Speaker 1: So I believe well, speaking for myself, I believe that.
Speaker 1: And may I add something to this that we know? Yes,
Speaker 1: A journalist said after watching them, I think it was
Speaker 1: Mildred Hayes and Three Billboards. He said, watching my face
Speaker 1: was like visiting a national park, which I love because
Speaker 1: I have valleys, I have maces and peaks that I've earned,
Speaker 1: every single one of them, every single one of them.
Speaker 1: And you have shown a real fearlessness in rejecting a
Speaker 1: lot of these unrealistic and very restrictive Hollywood beauty standards.
Speaker 1: Where does that fearlessness come from? Trust me, I think
Speaker 1: about it a lot. I have to think about it
Speaker 1: a lot. Sometimes my husband will say, will you please
Speaker 1: shut up? I'm tired of hearing you say that somebody
Speaker 1: are so and so you know it's like, but so
Speaker 1: you tell him you are talking to a national park.
Speaker 1: Respect Please, you better watch out, mister, right We're talking
Speaker 1: to a national park right here. But you know, I
Speaker 1: also think there's a couple of things, and he certainly
Speaker 1: has something to do with it, because I've often said
Speaker 1: when my husband looks at me the face that he reflects,
Speaker 1: he likes what he sees. If he didn't like what
Speaker 1: he saw, my face would be looking like his, and
Speaker 1: so I would have a lot more lines on my
Speaker 1: face that were sadder. But I have happy lines because
Speaker 1: that's what I'm reflecting. But I also think it's in reaction.
Speaker 1: You know. I give a lot of credit to that
Speaker 1: casting director because I left that room saying, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: not what they expect, but they're gonna need one of
Speaker 1: me one day, and I'm going to be the best
Speaker 1: one of that that I can be. If they need
Speaker 1: somebody bigger or shorter, or this or that, I'll be
Speaker 1: that other thing. I'm gonna be unique. I'm gonna be me.
Speaker 1: Every story needs him. We're taking a quick break. Stay
Speaker 1: with us, you know. I also love the fact that
Speaker 1: you have done both stage and film work, and you've
Speaker 1: even done experimental theater with companies like the Wooster Group.
Speaker 1: What keeps luring you back? So Liz lacomp who is
Speaker 1: the director of the Wooster Group, and Kate Vauk, who
Speaker 1: is one of the founding members of that group, they're
Speaker 1: dear friends. When my son was starting kindergarten and I
Speaker 1: knew that I wanted to stay in one place. Joel
Speaker 1: and I wanted to be in one place. We raised
Speaker 1: our son in New York City. We wanted him to
Speaker 1: have consistency because the rest of our life was not
Speaker 1: going to be consistent. So I knew that once he
Speaker 1: started school, I was going to stay in New York
Speaker 1: more and do see it or more. And I went
Speaker 1: to them and I said, I've got to have work.
Speaker 1: I know I need work. I need consistent focus. I
Speaker 1: need to keep my engine alive. I've got to keep
Speaker 1: it well tuned. I need a place to go. And
Speaker 1: they said, come here, because it's a matriarchal organization. And
Speaker 1: so I was able to leave to pick him up
Speaker 1: for school. I was able to bring him there if
Speaker 1: I needed to. I was able to skip a day
Speaker 1: if he had a doctor's a point. It was just
Speaker 1: an It was understood, no questions asked. It wasn't just that.
Speaker 1: It's also the way that they make art. They make
Speaker 1: art in a very extraordinary way, and I think that
Speaker 1: the art that they produce is some of the most
Speaker 1: for me. It's where I did my classical performances. You know,
Speaker 1: instead of a more conventional way of doing the classics,
Speaker 1: it was a much more avant garde way of doing
Speaker 1: the classics, So it just suited me more than say
Speaker 1: a production at the Globe or on Broadway or the
Speaker 1: West End. So for me, it was not only something
Speaker 1: that challenged me as an artist, it really gave me
Speaker 1: a home. It gave me a theatrical home. But I
Speaker 1: love the theme that is running through this conversation about
Speaker 1: the importance of creating situations like you did with women
Speaker 1: talking having a female sensibility, about childcare, about shooting around
Speaker 1: children's summer vacations. Now talking about you know what you
Speaker 1: found with the Wooster group being able to pick your
Speaker 1: son up at school and do what you needed to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so refreshing and still so rare. Institutions
Speaker 1: are not willing to make those kinds of decisions that
Speaker 1: enable more women to pursue their potential and also at
Speaker 1: the same time do what is critically important, you know,
Speaker 1: have relationships, raise children, take care of elderly parents, whatever
Speaker 1: it might be. Absolutely Hillary. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: recently looked up the phrase, and I know that you
Speaker 1: heard it and it resonated for you. You can have
Speaker 1: it all. And what's interesting is that so who originally
Speaker 1: said that, I believe it was Betty for Dan and
Speaker 1: then Oprah I think is credited with the second part
Speaker 1: of that statement, which is very important. You can have
Speaker 1: it all, just not all at once exactly. So I
Speaker 1: think that part of my young feminist mind at fourteen
Speaker 1: and fifteen said, oh, I can have it all, then
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have it all, and rocket really exhausted. It's
Speaker 1: really hard to fucking have it all. Got to put
Speaker 1: a lot of things in place. So let's take for example,
Speaker 1: because you know nobody is listening to this podcast if
Speaker 1: they don't understand that from your perspective, Secretary Clinton, So
Speaker 1: let's take it from Glenda Jackson's perspective. She didn't decide
Speaker 1: to become a producer of film. She decided to go
Speaker 1: into the parliament years and change policy. Now I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that any actors should become a politician. For God's sake,
Speaker 1: we know how that can work out. But I think
Speaker 1: it is interesting that if you put the kind of
Speaker 1: energy that we you know that actors and producers and
Speaker 1: directors and filmmakers have exercise and practiced into activism. Right,
Speaker 1: Like I was saying before, there's good propaganda. There's really
Speaker 1: good ways of understanding who your audience is and how
Speaker 1: they can be educated. So I think, you know, let's
Speaker 1: have it all. Why not, Let's let's have it all right,
Speaker 1: and also give the opportunity for some kind of I believe.
Speaker 1: And what would I often say to you know, when
Speaker 1: we're having screening with college students. I'm not interested in
Speaker 1: taking down the patriarchy that's going to happen naturally as
Speaker 1: a natural evolution of humankind. But I think what I'm
Speaker 1: interested in is really illuminating the matriarchy that has been
Speaker 1: there since the first campfire was and had to be
Speaker 1: kept alive. You know, I could talk to you about
Speaker 1: this all day, but I do want to also ask you.
Speaker 1: You know, another thing you've done is to carve out
Speaker 1: a life for yourself with your husband and your son
Speaker 1: outside of Hollywood. So what's a typical day like for you?
Speaker 1: When you're not shooting a movie, when you're not talking
Speaker 1: to directors, when you're not reading material that you might option,
Speaker 1: how do you spend your time? Well, I'm really really
Speaker 1: fortunate because Joel and I were always interested. We never
Speaker 1: lived in la We lived in LA for work, but
Speaker 1: we always lived in New York City. We raised our
Speaker 1: son in New York City, and we have many friends
Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with the industry, so we
Speaker 1: didn't live inside it. It was our job, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't our life. We're also very privileged in that we
Speaker 1: can have more than one home. You know. I have
Speaker 1: a home in New York City and I have a
Speaker 1: home in a rural area, which exposes me to nature
Speaker 1: in a way that I couldn't. I could never spend
Speaker 1: all my life in a large city because nature is
Speaker 1: a huge part of my every day. I'm not a
Speaker 1: great planter, but I'm a great pruner. I love to
Speaker 1: prune things. You give me a saw and a couple branches,
Speaker 1: I can spend all day my house. Yeah, I'm ready.
Speaker 1: I love to cook. I have groups of women that
Speaker 1: we get together and we we you know, the classic
Speaker 1: stitch and bitch, but it's not you know, it's a
Speaker 1: little gossip thrown in, but a lot of talk about
Speaker 1: the books we're reading and the information we're sharing. I've
Speaker 1: gotten involved in local politics in a way of with
Speaker 1: affordable housing in the town that I spend time, I
Speaker 1: feel like there's now I think, as a lot of
Speaker 1: we older women know, it doesn't seem like there's enough
Speaker 1: hours in the day to true Oh my gosh. I mean,
Speaker 1: I am constantly saying I have I don't know how
Speaker 1: I have so much to do? All the how much
Speaker 1: to do? You know, but they more importantly, Oh Hillary,
Speaker 1: I want here. I want to ask you something, because
Speaker 1: here's some advice I need. I have been doing the
Speaker 1: same thing for so long, and what I want to
Speaker 1: do is not be so addicted as too dramatic. But
Speaker 1: I don't want to be at the mercy of the
Speaker 1: thing I've done for so long, because it's defined so
Speaker 1: much of my day and so much of my year.
Speaker 1: I kind of I'm used to these rhythms of Okay,
Speaker 1: you have a movie, you start this process of a movie,
Speaker 1: then you do this part and this part and this part,
Speaker 1: and then you start again. I'd really like to know
Speaker 1: what it's like to get up in Bay and have
Speaker 1: a clear horizon and know that I'll be okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well i'd be okay. Hillary, You're gonna be okay, You're
Speaker 1: gonna be You're gonna be totally okay. I hate to
Speaker 1: break it to you, though, I don't know that you're
Speaker 1: ever going to have a clear horizon because your mind
Speaker 1: is going to be constantly churning about out. I got
Speaker 1: to go prune something. I got to figure out how
Speaker 1: to make the inclusion writer real. I've got to, you know,
Speaker 1: figure out how I can support my son as he
Speaker 1: goes off. And you are never going to be someone
Speaker 1: who is not alive and curious and active, and hooray,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that that is who you are and
Speaker 1: you don't want to give up. I could never give
Speaker 1: up trying to influence politics or trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: support people who I think are going to be, you know,
Speaker 1: better for my grandchildren than other people. So I'm always
Speaker 1: going to be interested in that, and I think that's
Speaker 1: how you you do it well. Thank you. I think Hillary,
Speaker 1: you know, it's important for the podcast listeners to know
Speaker 1: that you brought me to tears because it's so true
Speaker 1: and the truth always, you know, hits us in the
Speaker 1: most the most deepest way. I also something that I'm
Speaker 1: trying to practice and I know that you you already
Speaker 1: have been practicing this, and I think it's really important
Speaker 1: right now because we have so many female leaders who
Speaker 1: are transitioning in their lives to the next phase. I
Speaker 1: am really interested in pointing towards the people that are
Speaker 1: familiar to me. If you have responded to what I've
Speaker 1: done in my life at sixty five, then I want
Speaker 1: to point you to Ddy Gardner and Sarah Pouly, who
Speaker 1: I worked with on women Talking, and say, these women,
Speaker 1: I trust them, I know what they're doing. I'm going
Speaker 1: to say, everybody follow them. I'll be right over here
Speaker 1: if you need me here, I am right right right
Speaker 1: over here. That's exactly right. You know, we now have
Speaker 1: all these relatively young women in politics. They're governors now.
Speaker 1: I just talk to the new governor of Massachusetts who's
Speaker 1: a longtime friend of mine. You just want to do
Speaker 1: whatever you can to not just encourage them personally, but
Speaker 1: to try to create an environment in which they can flourish,
Speaker 1: in which they can do their best work. And you know,
Speaker 1: you and I've learned some lessons along the way that
Speaker 1: maybe are useful. But again, we're going to be living
Speaker 1: our lives. People know where to find us, and we
Speaker 1: welcome that. If they're people we want to be in
Speaker 1: conversation with. They are part of our women talking groups,
Speaker 1: so to speak. The Hayloft, Yes, les our own little hayloft.
Speaker 1: The Hayloft is a sacred place. Well, my friend, I
Speaker 1: cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed talking to you,
Speaker 1: seeing you virtually. Thank you, Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: who you are, what you do, and everything that you
Speaker 1: mean and give to us. It's truly a great honor
Speaker 1: and delight being with you. Thank you, Madam Secretary. When
Speaker 1: I watch the Oscars this Sunday, I'll be sharing on
Speaker 1: the whole team from Women Talking, And if you haven't
Speaker 1: seen the film yet, I highly recommend you check it out.
Speaker 1: I'm proud to stand with Francis, Sarah Polli, Dedie Gardner,
Speaker 1: everyone who is pushing us to support films by people
Speaker 1: whose voices we haven't heard, who've been kept on the
Speaker 1: margins for far too long. Before I sign off, I
Speaker 1: want to let you know we'll be back with a
Speaker 1: new season of you and Me both in the fall.
Speaker 1: But if you can't wait until then, why not check
Speaker 1: out our archive. There's so many fantastic conversations there, including
Speaker 1: with the great Glenda Jackson, who Francis was just raving about.
Speaker 1: Glenda still remembers when she was nominated for her first
Speaker 1: Academy Award for the film Women in Love, when it
Speaker 1: did happen. I look back on it now, it was
Speaker 1: quite extraordinary because I was a great disappointment to all
Speaker 1: the kind of journalists beca I didn't look the way
Speaker 1: they told people who would nominate you should look. You
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I do know what to Yes.
Speaker 1: Go to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen.
Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
Speaker 1: with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Nick Merrill,
Speaker 1: Laura Olan, Rachel Rosen, Lona Valmorro and Lily Webber. Our
Speaker 1: engineer is Zach McNeice. And the original music is by
Speaker 1: Forrest Gray. That's all for now, but as I said,
Speaker 1: I'll be back in the fall. Until then, you can
Speaker 1: check out all of our past episodes and be sure
Speaker 1: to subscribe to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you go to get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening.