WEBVTT - Good Propaganda (with Frances McDormand) - Full Episode 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:05.920 You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.760 Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. We're 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.120 between seasons right now, but I couldn't wait to share 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.720 with you this conversation I had with one of my 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:20.560 favorite actors and favorite people about her latest project and 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:24.919 about the brave choices she's made throughout her extraordinary career. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.640 Like so many of you listening, I've been a fan 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.319 of Francis McDorman from the first time I saw her 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:37.360 on the big screen. Many of you probably know her 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.720 from her breakout performance in the nineteen ninety six film Fargo, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:46.000 written and directed by the Cohen Brothers, that is, her 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:50.880 husband Joel Cohen and his brother Ethan. In that movie, 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.840 Francis plays Marge Gunderson, a very pregnant, very down to 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:00.520 earth police chief in small town Minnesota. I'd be very 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.479 surprised if our suspect was from Brainard. Yeah, and I'll 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.960 tell you what from his footprint. He looks like a 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:11.880 big fella. You see something down there, chief? No, I 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:18.840 just think I'm gonna bear jeez kargie. Yeah, I'm fine, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:24.920 it's just morning sickness. Since then, she's played many other 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:30.880 unforgettable roles on stage and screen, including her award winning 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:36.880 performances in Olive Kitteridge, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, and 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:41.560 Nomad Land. Francis has also been a vocal advocate for 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:46.480 expanding access to more women and people of color in Hollywood. 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:51.560 At the twenty eighteen OSCAR ceremony, she made headlines with 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:56.200 her acceptance speech for Best Actress when she invited every 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.880 female nominee in every category to stay and with her. 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.440 The actors, Marilick, you do it. Everybody else will come on. 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:11.440 The filmmakers, the producers, the directors, the writers, the cinematographers, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:18.919 the composers, with the songwriters, the designers. I have two 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.600 words to leave with you tonight, ladies and gentlemen. Inclusion writer. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.040 That's when many of us first heard the term inclusion writer. 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:35.880 Something she encouraged that actors put in their contracts, stipulating 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.639 that a certain proportion of the cast or crew must 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.840 be women or people of color. Now Francis is up 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:49.160 for another Oscar, this time for the remarkable film Women Talking, 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.120 which she produced and appears in. The film is based 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.440 on a novel by Miriam Taves and was written and 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.639 directed by Sarah POLLI we had so much to talk about, 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.799 and I'm delighted to share with you my conversation with 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:13.080 Francis McDorman. Hello Francis, Hello Hillary. I remember, God was 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.679 it seven years ago, twenty fifteen, we watched the Academy 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.280 Awards together. Oh, at our mutual great friends home. I 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.320 remember that too, you know what? And may I call 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.079 you Hillary, Secretary Clinton? Yes, you better, Yes, indeed, thank 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.600 you so very much, because I remember because we have 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:36.640 a long tradition of being very snarky while watching. And 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.200 I remember I started talking about somebody's outfit, which I 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.440 love to do. It's a fashion show, right, it's a thing. Yes, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.880 it's kind of part of the sport. And I remember 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.200 looking over at you and you looked at me quizzically, 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:52.360 and I realized, oh, I have to explain that part 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:58.520 of it is just being b I tch y. It's 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.280 like sports commentary. Are you going this year? Our film 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.840 has been invited, I would hope, So I want to 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:06.600 talk to you about that, but first let's get into 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.320 the important stuff like are you going? Well? You know what, Hillary, 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.040 it is something to talk about because it's a weird 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.640 in my little pocket of the universe, called the film industry, 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.520 which is, in fact, I want to remind everyone a 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:26.920 very small part of the larger entertainment business that TV 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.640 show is not my favorite part of it. I call 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.560 it the convention. Our family calls it the award convention. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.839 That's a good description. It's like a car show, yes, 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:39.440 And they roll us out every year and then they 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.320 roll us back in the garage, and I kind of 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:48.320 feel like I couldn't have had a more wonderful time 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.960 over the years going. But every time that I or 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.240 some project I've been involved in is invited, I reassess it. 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:01.920 And so I'm still reassessing that the film's going. And 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.279 I think a really important thing for us, Sarah Paully 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.360 the director, and Dedie Gardner are producing partner, is that 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.840 the invitation that we've been extended. We're very interested in 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.520 making that a very loud statement about the omissions that 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.000 have been made this year. No women were nominated for director, 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.680 were they? And people of color? It is so I mean, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.279 so bald that it's kind of hard to ignore. Well, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.440 there's no ignoring it. There's no ignoring it. There's no 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.400 ignoring it. And I think why I'm saying that because 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.480 when you know, when this podcast has aired. In our 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.760 conversation is you know, a part of the conversation that 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.120 other people are having about the film, we're going to 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.080 be already engaged in a process of saying, if you 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.679 are interested in the success of Women Talking, you're also 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.159 interested in the success of The Woman King by Gina 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.440 prince Blythewood Exactly. You're interested in the success of till 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.920 you're interested in the success of many films that were 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.760 made this year that were helmed by women, and they 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.040 had the exact same interest in changing the industries as 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.040 Dedy Gardner, Sarah Paulie, and Francis McDorman have. Yeah, I 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.200 love that, Francis, we're talking about your most recent movie, 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:23.440 Women Talking, because the film is so extraordinary to me. 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.320 It's what film should be explained for our listeners who 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.320 haven't seen it yet. I hope there's not too many 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.279 of them, but there will be some sort of what 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.560 the core of the story is about. It's based on 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.559 a true story, and it's based on a horrific event 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.080 that happened in a Mennonite community in Bolivia that was 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.919 reported on actually in vice. It turned out that for 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.159 over several years, the men of the community used a 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:52.839 cow tranquilizer. They spread it into women's rooms a nest 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.039 size the women, and while they were unconscious they the 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.839 women were raped over and over over several years, females 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:06.680 horrifically from three years to eighty years old. And when 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.600 the women woke up, battered and bruised, not understanding what 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.560 had happened, some of them pregnant. They were told by 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.600 the men of the community and the male leaders of 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.240 the community that it was in their imagination or they 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.520 were being tempted by the devil. They were basically, as 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.960 the term is now, gas lit. So finally some of 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.160 the men were caught actually climbing into the one of 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.720 the women's rooms, and eight of the men were taken 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.120 by the community and locked into a shed. Finally, the 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.320 Bolivion government found out about the incident and took them 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.440 to jail. So what Miriam Tave's book Women Talking did 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.120 is took it from that moment forward and said what 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:54.000 if What if a trial did not happen, but the 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.200 women decided to vote while the men were away to 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.520 post bail for the men that were jailed. What if 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.080 the women voted to either do nothing to forgive the 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:04.720 men as they were being asked to do by the 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:09.600 patriarchal leaders, to stay and fight the men for what 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.880 they had done, or to leave and begin a new 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.960 world somewhere else. And so Miriam's book starts with that 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:26.480 vote and the women gathering in the hayloft to discuss forgiveness, complicity, retribution, revenge, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.320 the future. And this is a group of women who 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.920 have been kept illiterate because they're not educated past a 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.439 certain point. So what I love about what Miriam did 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.199 is she shows a group of women who, yes, they're illiterate, 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:46.680 but their imaginations are broad, and their sense of faith 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:52.960 and justice is deepened, you know, has equanimity. You know. 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.360 I read the book when it came out and it 0:08:55.520 --> 0:09:01.040 just was so shocking and painful. And then the way 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.439 you portray it in the film is to me just 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:11.520 an extraordinary You look into human nature and the kind 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.040 of sense of justice that can be ignited even in 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.920 people who have been literally separated from the world. I 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.840 thought it was just an extraordinary film. Thank you, And 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.920 I have to tell you so much credit goes to 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.240 Sarah Pauly and her not only her skill as a storyteller, 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:38.280 she also has a very personal sense of justice. She 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.600 has a long history of political activism, so she understands 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.880 it as a piece of I like to call it 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.480 good propaganda, because I think there is good propaganda. I 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.120 think that's it ignites conversation, and you know, one of 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.439 the great things we've been able to do with the film. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:58.680 You know, films are meant to be seen in a 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.640 dark room with other people with disparate political beliefs and 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.079 religious faiths and backgrounds. But they come into that space 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.640 and they share the same story. That's the beauty of film, 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.280 and then they talk about it, and then they talk 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.720 about it and they can't leave the lobby for a while. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.840 Those are the best moments, right when you're suspended in 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.840 that space for a while with a group of strangers. Unfortunately, 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.480 that's not happening as often as we would like it too. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.040 But what we have been able to do is have 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.840 a lot of screenings on college campuses and invite professors 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:37.079 who are not teaching film, but they're teaching religious studies, ethics, 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:42.160 gender studies, and the conversations that are happening out of 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:48.440 those screenings have been delicious, absolutely delicious. And I was 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.959 also interested in the character that you played. I mean 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.840 it was a small role in the film, but a 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.959 very powerful one. And without being a spoiler, you know, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:06.960 your character is severe, intimidating, resistant to change, really a 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:12.920 defender of the status quo, someone who has bought, hook 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.600 line and sinker everything that she'd been indoctrinated by and 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:21.160 lived throughout her long life. Was she hard to play 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:27.160 for you? You know, Hillary, I really am so appreciative 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.120 of the way Sarah cast me in this film and 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.600 that we kind of cast me together as Scarface Jans. 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.120 First of all, just who wouldn't want to play a 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:42.200 character called Scarface Jans. That being said, more importantly, there 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.880 were three positions posited in the film. As I said before, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.480 do nothing to forgive the men, stay and fight, the 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:57.760 men and leave. There were three matriarchs in the Hayloft, Scarface, 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.840 Agatta and Greta. All the women of the community, three 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.280 hundred or more women in the community. Their fates were 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.960 being decided by these three families. Scarface represents a large 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:14.000 group of the women in that community who, for whatever reason, 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:19.080 fear complacency, the status quo, whatever it is. They have 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:24.160 chosen to do nothing and forgive because they believe that 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.160 their place in heaven is threatened if they don't. So 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:32.880 I felt that by casting someone who an audience expects 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.960 to turn up more in the conversation, it keeps that 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.520 voice alive. By casting me, even though what I love 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.880 is also that Scarface Jans and her family, her daughter 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.679 and granddaughter don't have a lot of dialogue. Most of 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.079 our scenes are just seeing us in our life, silently 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.600 in our life, going about our life, with the pressure 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.400 of this decision hanging over us. But I think it's 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.200 really important to keep their voice alive, those other women's 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.760 voice alive. Well, it's a very realistic set of options, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.120 and we are presented with them every single day of 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.360 our life as women do nothing, stay and fight or 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.720 walk away exactly, Oh, Hillary, don't you know it? I 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.240 do know it. It's sort of you know, it's just 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.560 a reflection. Even though this is a community that most 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.240 of us will never experience, never be part of, it 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:34.319 is engaged in a universal decision making. Absolutely, it's embroidered 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.800 in a very tight, cruel work of our life. If 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.720 you want to use a metaphor, it's exactly right. Well, 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.480 the last question I wanted to ask about the film, 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:48.000 and you've mentioned Sarah Paully, the director, the screenwriter. Was 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.840 it one of your most unusual but gratifying experiences to 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.520 work essentially with an all women team. How did that 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.760 feel different to you than you're career in so many 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:07.120 other settings. Yeah, So I read the book, I optioned 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.400 the book. I immediately took it to Didi Gardner, who 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.200 is one of the partners in a company called Plan 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.800 B because I had been really interested in the films 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.440 they've made, Moonlight, Twelve Years of Slave, So I sent 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.560 the book to did. She immediately got in touch. We 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.720 got in a room together and she was just passionate 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.880 and one of the people that we first started talking 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.240 about with Sarah Pauly, because she really is an autour. 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.560 She takes it from the first step to the last step. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.280 So we got in touch with her and she said, 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.720 I have three children, I love my life in Toronto. 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.240 How do we do this so that I can have 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.280 a life? And we said, we're really interested in that. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:55.080 So let's have short days, let's have childcare, Let's find 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.160 the farm, live on the farm, shoot it on the farm, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.520 do it in the summer when you're kids are off 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:05.640 of school. And we were able to accomplish maybe not 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:11.480 all those things, but because we were a female led organization, 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:20.560 mostly family oriented, it changed our perception of everything. We're 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.040 taking a quick break. Coming up, Francis shares how she 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:29.920 went from supporting actor to leading protagonist on screen and 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:43.240 in her own life. Now, let's switch gears a bit 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.840 and talk about how you got into acting in the 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.720 first place. Where did that come from? I like starting 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.240 with when I was in second grade to kind of 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.200 lead up to this point in my professional life. You know, 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:02.280 I lived in small rural cities towns most of my life, 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.680 and my local library had a summer program where if 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.480 you read ten books, you got your polaroid put on 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.440 the corkboard at the end of the summer. And I 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.840 read ten books, most of them were biographies of women 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:22.920 explorers and writers, and I got my picture put up 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.640 on the corkboard Hillary and it never stopped. And then 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.400 there was a point in my when I was a 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.800 teenager when literature that had already become my fantasy life 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.720 became a social life. When I started reading Shakespeare and 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.360 an English teacher said, let's put on some scenes after school, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.600 And then I realized that literature could become something that 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.880 was actually with other people in a room, and then 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:55.120 that grew into my becoming an actor. How did you 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.920 translate those experiences as first a child, then a tea 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.679 major into the awareness that hey, I can do that. 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.959 Were there people in addition to the teacher who encouraged you, 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.359 where their role models that you saw out in the 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.720 world that you said to yourself, Hey, that's what I 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.359 want to be. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It started 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:22.399 with these very rare individuals who in the educational system 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.200 because I, you know, I come from a working class background, 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.080 and so I went through public school, you know, in 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:33.639 the fifties and sixties, and those teachers recognized because I 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.000 was a very quiet, shy person. I wasn't one of 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.879 those children who want everybody said, oh, she'll be an actor, 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.719 because I was always app dancing or something. Now, I 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.080 was always in the corner reading, But there was something 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.600 about it was where my intellect lies. I have an 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.159 intuitive intellect. I don't necessarily have a you know something 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.600 that my husband Joel and I are always talking about. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.760 I bring him towards the corporal and he brings me 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:02.239 towards the intellectual. But there's an intelligence there, and I 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.480 think that you know, in public school, when I was 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:09.280 growing up, with things like wood shop and car mechanics 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:16.240 and technological classes, everyone's intellect was found. If you couldn't 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.520 pass math because you just did not have that kind 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:24.679 of brain, but someone saw you build a bookcase or 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.160 put together a car engine, they understood that you had 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.440 that kind of intellect, and then they could they shepherd 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:36.240 you towards those kind of futures. So I had teachers 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.439 who saw that I was not passing math and I 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.720 was not passing science, but I couldn't stay out of 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.159 the books in English and all kinds of literature was 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.679 my candy, was my joy. It wasn't just from a 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:51.879 theatrical point of view, but they would ask me if 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.679 I wanted to stay after class and read other Shakespeare plays. 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:57.840 They would give me books to read. When I was 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.920 in college, there was no theory or major. I was 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.960 the only theater major in college. But the head of 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.520 the theater program, doctor Judy, said, you need to go 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.400 to graduate school. You need to be among your peers 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.000 and have three more years to test yourself against this 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.320 thing you love. And then I went to drama school. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.200 At Yale, and I was given the opportunity to think 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.360 of myself as an artist. For three years, I went 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.960 on full scholarship, I had work study, I had to 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.119 work my way through that. But by the time I 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.000 got out of that seven years, I believed to myself 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.920 and I quickly started had to do a past's Blue 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.200 Ribbon commercial to play the rent, but I did it 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.120 as an actor. I paid my rent as an actor. Oh, 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.879 I love that. And you have played a series of 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.240 iconic women that we all know and we think about. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.240 Was that something that just kind of evolved? I sank. 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.080 You know, here we are at a certain age, right, Hillary, 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:02.200 I'm sixty five. Love of acting started when I was fourteen, 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.719 so I've done it for fifty years, let's say. And 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.879 I would say the first half of my professional career 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:15.439 I played supporting roles to male protagonists, especially in film, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.640 not on stage. Stage has always offered female actors a 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:24.920 wider range of three dimensional characters, but the majority of 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.920 the work I did in film was supporting roles. And 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.720 I think that because I was really born to be 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.119 a leading actor on stage. That's kind of what I 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.920 was trained to do, is play the cannon of all 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:43.800 those Lady Macbeth Clytemnestra had a gobbler, all the ones 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.560 that you you know that you would read on on 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.800 Glenda Jackson's resume. Yes, but I think that I got 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.480 very very good at playing supporting roles, as many women 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.200 do in our lives, not just on stage and film, 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.680 but in my life. I boarded one of the best 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:08.200 filmmakers of our generation. And then when our son graduated 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.280 from high school about a year before that, I knew 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.400 that I would be bereafed. Being introduced to my son 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.159 and being privy to his becoming an adult is really 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.399 the greatest gift of my life. So I knew that 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.720 I would be bereft and I needed to focus on 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.800 something else to get out of his way. And so 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.639 that's when I optioned all of Kittridge and started developing that, 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.880 and that's when I started playing leading roles in film 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.960 and I have since then. What a creative way to 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:44.920 deal with your empty nest syndrome. Yeah, I love that 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.639 because you loved being a mom and you loved taking 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:50.359 care of a house. I mean, you've I've read that, 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.600 You've said that before. It's I have to say, let's 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.280 face it. It's sometimes a better hobby than a full 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.639 time job. I really like it as a high. Sometimes 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.760 it's like, well, somebody else, Like I'm not going to 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.120 go over there and pick up that anymore. Somebody else, 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:07.280 I'm going to try to train myself not to pick 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:09.960 that up anymore. But I think, yeah, I think that 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.560 there's something about becoming the leading protagonist in your life. 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.720 Is there's something kind of metaphorical about it. You did 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.679 and you have and you know, when I think about 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:26.439 the iconic women that you've played, Marge Gunderson and Fargo, 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:31.439 Olive Kitteridge, Fern in nomad Land, they all seem in 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:38.840 their own ways, you know, very iconoclastic, eccentric, quirky, you know, 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:45.000 in Three Billboards, obviously outraged. I mean, there's just strong emotion, 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:50.359 but also a sense of commitment to living a life 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.440 on her own terms. How do you think about these 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:59.000 characters in relation to your own life right now? When 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.080 I first came to New York, Killery and I was 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.080 offered a meeting with the casting director, she sat me 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.199 down and she said, here's some things you need to know. 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:10.600 You got to get that tooth fixed. I had a 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:12.760 little chip in my front tooth. She said, you have 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.240 to learn how to use some makeup and wear high heels, 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.879 because you'd make a great pioneer woman. But they're not 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:23.640 making that many Westerns these days. So I went out 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:28.280 her door not very happy, and spent a few days 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:30.840 thinking about that, and lo and behold. I think if 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:34.959 you look at those characters that you've mentioned, Fern, Mildred Pays, 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:40.040 Marge Gunderson, Olive Kittridge, there's something about them that I 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:45.679 think belies her advice, that they are those kind of women, 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:51.400 a kind of American iconic women who they're like standing stones, right, 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:57.280 They're like those rocks out in the desert somewhere. Yes, exactly. 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.000 So I think that's kind of what they characters represent. 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.240 But I also I'm really interested also in that. So 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:07.640 all of Kitch was adapted from the novel by Elizabeth 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:13.120 Strout by Jane Anderson. Nomad Land was created by Chloe Jow. 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:17.360 Both Marge Gunderson and Mildred Hayes were written by Joel 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:21.840 and Nathan Cohen and Martin mcdonnough, respectively. For me, those 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:25.040 all the parts were written with me in mind, and 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.800 not only me in mind. Francis McDorman. But the characters 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:32.280 I played, so Fern was building off Mildred Hayes, Marge 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:35.919 Gunderson and all of Kittridge as much as other characters 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:41.360 in kind of modern classic iconography female iconography. Right, They're 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:45.199 all built on these iconic figures, not just me, right, right. 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.680 It wasn't Francis McDorman. It was like these iconic ideas 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:52.280 of woman, and in some cases, like with Mildred Hayes, 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:55.400 I actually I thought of John Wayne a lot when 0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:57.720 I was playing the part. So there's a lot of 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:01.040 kind of trying to the idea of how can you 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:03.920 attach to these characters that have to take you through 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:07.160 this landscape. I've always thought of my job as I'm 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:11.200 in a service position. I'm serving the role that's offered, 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:15.000 and that as I've gotten older, I'm able to help 0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:19.439 develop those characters with the storytellers more and more. But 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:23.119 I'm serving the characters as much as I'm serving the story. 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:25.400 That's such a good way of putting it. I mean, 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:30.920 because these characters deserve to be seen and heard, and 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:36.119 you have done that so beautifully that these women become 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:41.720 almost part of our consciousness, our collective consciousness, and I hope. 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:45.359 So I believe well, speaking for myself, I believe that. 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:48.160 And may I add something to this that we know? Yes, 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:51.520 A journalist said after watching them, I think it was 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:57.200 Mildred Hayes and Three Billboards. He said, watching my face 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:03.280 was like visiting a national park, which I love because 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:09.800 I have valleys, I have maces and peaks that I've earned, 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:14.359 every single one of them, every single one of them. 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:18.439 And you have shown a real fearlessness in rejecting a 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:24.800 lot of these unrealistic and very restrictive Hollywood beauty standards. 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:28.680 Where does that fearlessness come from? Trust me, I think 0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:31.359 about it a lot. I have to think about it 0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:34.160 a lot. Sometimes my husband will say, will you please 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:41.040 shut up? I'm tired of hearing you say that somebody 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:44.320 are so and so you know it's like, but so 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:46.920