1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. We're 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: between seasons right now, but I couldn't wait to share 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: with you this conversation I had with one of my 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: favorite actors and favorite people about her latest project and 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: about the brave choices she's made throughout her extraordinary career. 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Like so many of you listening, I've been a fan 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,319 Speaker 1: of Francis McDorman from the first time I saw her 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: on the big screen. Many of you probably know her 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: from her breakout performance in the nineteen ninety six film Fargo, 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: written and directed by the Cohen Brothers, that is, her 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: husband Joel Cohen and his brother Ethan. In that movie, 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: Francis plays Marge Gunderson, a very pregnant, very down to 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: earth police chief in small town Minnesota. I'd be very 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: surprised if our suspect was from Brainard. Yeah, and I'll 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: tell you what from his footprint. He looks like a 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: big fella. You see something down there, chief? No, I 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: just think I'm gonna bear jeez kargie. Yeah, I'm fine, 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: it's just morning sickness. Since then, she's played many other 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: unforgettable roles on stage and screen, including her award winning 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: performances in Olive Kitteridge, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, and 22 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: Nomad Land. Francis has also been a vocal advocate for 23 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: expanding access to more women and people of color in Hollywood. 24 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: At the twenty eighteen OSCAR ceremony, she made headlines with 25 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: her acceptance speech for Best Actress when she invited every 26 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: female nominee in every category to stay and with her. 27 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: The actors, Marilick, you do it. Everybody else will come on. 28 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: The filmmakers, the producers, the directors, the writers, the cinematographers, 29 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: the composers, with the songwriters, the designers. I have two 30 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: words to leave with you tonight, ladies and gentlemen. Inclusion writer. 31 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: That's when many of us first heard the term inclusion writer. 32 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: Something she encouraged that actors put in their contracts, stipulating 33 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: that a certain proportion of the cast or crew must 34 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: be women or people of color. Now Francis is up 35 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: for another Oscar, this time for the remarkable film Women Talking, 36 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: which she produced and appears in. The film is based 37 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: on a novel by Miriam Taves and was written and 38 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: directed by Sarah POLLI we had so much to talk about, 39 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: and I'm delighted to share with you my conversation with 40 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: Francis McDorman. Hello Francis, Hello Hillary. I remember, God was 41 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: it seven years ago, twenty fifteen, we watched the Academy 42 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: Awards together. Oh, at our mutual great friends home. I 43 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: remember that too, you know what? And may I call 44 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: you Hillary, Secretary Clinton? Yes, you better, Yes, indeed, thank 45 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: you so very much, because I remember because we have 46 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: a long tradition of being very snarky while watching. And 47 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: I remember I started talking about somebody's outfit, which I 48 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: love to do. It's a fashion show, right, it's a thing. Yes, 49 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of part of the sport. And I remember 50 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: looking over at you and you looked at me quizzically, 51 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: and I realized, oh, I have to explain that part 52 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: of it is just being b I tch y. It's 53 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: like sports commentary. Are you going this year? Our film 54 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: has been invited, I would hope, So I want to 55 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: talk to you about that, but first let's get into 56 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: the important stuff like are you going? Well? You know what, Hillary, 57 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: it is something to talk about because it's a weird 58 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: in my little pocket of the universe, called the film industry, 59 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: which is, in fact, I want to remind everyone a 60 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: very small part of the larger entertainment business that TV 61 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: show is not my favorite part of it. I call 62 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: it the convention. Our family calls it the award convention. 63 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: That's a good description. It's like a car show, yes, 64 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: And they roll us out every year and then they 65 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: roll us back in the garage, and I kind of 66 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: feel like I couldn't have had a more wonderful time 67 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: over the years going. But every time that I or 68 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: some project I've been involved in is invited, I reassess it. 69 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: And so I'm still reassessing that the film's going. And 70 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: I think a really important thing for us, Sarah Paully 71 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: the director, and Dedie Gardner are producing partner, is that 72 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: the invitation that we've been extended. We're very interested in 73 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: making that a very loud statement about the omissions that 74 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: have been made this year. No women were nominated for director, 75 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: were they? And people of color? It is so I mean, 76 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: so bald that it's kind of hard to ignore. Well, 77 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: there's no ignoring it. There's no ignoring it. There's no 78 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: ignoring it. And I think why I'm saying that because 79 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: when you know, when this podcast has aired. In our 80 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: conversation is you know, a part of the conversation that 81 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: other people are having about the film, we're going to 82 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: be already engaged in a process of saying, if you 83 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: are interested in the success of Women Talking, you're also 84 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: interested in the success of The Woman King by Gina 85 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: prince Blythewood Exactly. You're interested in the success of till 86 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: you're interested in the success of many films that were 87 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: made this year that were helmed by women, and they 88 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: had the exact same interest in changing the industries as 89 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: Dedy Gardner, Sarah Paulie, and Francis McDorman have. Yeah, I 90 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: love that, Francis, we're talking about your most recent movie, 91 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: Women Talking, because the film is so extraordinary to me. 92 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: It's what film should be explained for our listeners who 93 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: haven't seen it yet. I hope there's not too many 94 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: of them, but there will be some sort of what 95 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: the core of the story is about. It's based on 96 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,559 Speaker 1: a true story, and it's based on a horrific event 97 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: that happened in a Mennonite community in Bolivia that was 98 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: reported on actually in vice. It turned out that for 99 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: over several years, the men of the community used a 100 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: cow tranquilizer. They spread it into women's rooms a nest 101 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: size the women, and while they were unconscious they the 102 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: women were raped over and over over several years, females 103 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: horrifically from three years to eighty years old. And when 104 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: the women woke up, battered and bruised, not understanding what 105 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: had happened, some of them pregnant. They were told by 106 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: the men of the community and the male leaders of 107 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: the community that it was in their imagination or they 108 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: were being tempted by the devil. They were basically, as 109 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: the term is now, gas lit. So finally some of 110 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: the men were caught actually climbing into the one of 111 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: the women's rooms, and eight of the men were taken 112 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: by the community and locked into a shed. Finally, the 113 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: Bolivion government found out about the incident and took them 114 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: to jail. So what Miriam Tave's book Women Talking did 115 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: is took it from that moment forward and said what 116 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: if What if a trial did not happen, but the 117 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: women decided to vote while the men were away to 118 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: post bail for the men that were jailed. What if 119 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: the women voted to either do nothing to forgive the 120 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: men as they were being asked to do by the 121 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: patriarchal leaders, to stay and fight the men for what 122 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: they had done, or to leave and begin a new 123 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: world somewhere else. And so Miriam's book starts with that 124 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: vote and the women gathering in the hayloft to discuss forgiveness, complicity, retribution, revenge, 125 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: the future. And this is a group of women who 126 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: have been kept illiterate because they're not educated past a 127 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: certain point. So what I love about what Miriam did 128 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: is she shows a group of women who, yes, they're illiterate, 129 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: but their imaginations are broad, and their sense of faith 130 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: and justice is deepened, you know, has equanimity. You know. 131 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: I read the book when it came out and it 132 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: just was so shocking and painful. And then the way 133 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: you portray it in the film is to me just 134 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: an extraordinary You look into human nature and the kind 135 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: of sense of justice that can be ignited even in 136 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: people who have been literally separated from the world. I 137 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: thought it was just an extraordinary film. Thank you, And 138 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: I have to tell you so much credit goes to 139 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: Sarah Pauly and her not only her skill as a storyteller, 140 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: she also has a very personal sense of justice. She 141 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: has a long history of political activism, so she understands 142 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: it as a piece of I like to call it 143 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: good propaganda, because I think there is good propaganda. I 144 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: think that's it ignites conversation, and you know, one of 145 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: the great things we've been able to do with the film. 146 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: You know, films are meant to be seen in a 147 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: dark room with other people with disparate political beliefs and 148 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: religious faiths and backgrounds. But they come into that space 149 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: and they share the same story. That's the beauty of film, 150 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: and then they talk about it, and then they talk 151 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: about it and they can't leave the lobby for a while. 152 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: Those are the best moments, right when you're suspended in 153 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: that space for a while with a group of strangers. Unfortunately, 154 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: that's not happening as often as we would like it too. 155 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: But what we have been able to do is have 156 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: a lot of screenings on college campuses and invite professors 157 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: who are not teaching film, but they're teaching religious studies, ethics, 158 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: gender studies, and the conversations that are happening out of 159 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: those screenings have been delicious, absolutely delicious. And I was 160 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: also interested in the character that you played. I mean 161 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: it was a small role in the film, but a 162 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: very powerful one. And without being a spoiler, you know, 163 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: your character is severe, intimidating, resistant to change, really a 164 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: defender of the status quo, someone who has bought, hook 165 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: line and sinker everything that she'd been indoctrinated by and 166 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: lived throughout her long life. Was she hard to play 167 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: for you? You know, Hillary, I really am so appreciative 168 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: of the way Sarah cast me in this film and 169 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: that we kind of cast me together as Scarface Jans. 170 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: First of all, just who wouldn't want to play a 171 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: character called Scarface Jans. That being said, more importantly, there 172 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: were three positions posited in the film. As I said before, 173 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: do nothing to forgive the men, stay and fight, the 174 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: men and leave. There were three matriarchs in the Hayloft, Scarface, 175 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: Agatta and Greta. All the women of the community, three 176 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: hundred or more women in the community. Their fates were 177 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: being decided by these three families. Scarface represents a large 178 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: group of the women in that community who, for whatever reason, 179 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: fear complacency, the status quo, whatever it is. They have 180 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: chosen to do nothing and forgive because they believe that 181 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: their place in heaven is threatened if they don't. So 182 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: I felt that by casting someone who an audience expects 183 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: to turn up more in the conversation, it keeps that 184 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: voice alive. By casting me, even though what I love 185 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: is also that Scarface Jans and her family, her daughter 186 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: and granddaughter don't have a lot of dialogue. Most of 187 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: our scenes are just seeing us in our life, silently 188 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: in our life, going about our life, with the pressure 189 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: of this decision hanging over us. But I think it's 190 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: really important to keep their voice alive, those other women's 191 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: voice alive. Well, it's a very realistic set of options, 192 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: and we are presented with them every single day of 193 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: our life as women do nothing, stay and fight or 194 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: walk away exactly, Oh, Hillary, don't you know it? I 195 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: do know it. It's sort of you know, it's just 196 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: a reflection. Even though this is a community that most 197 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: of us will never experience, never be part of, it 198 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: is engaged in a universal decision making. Absolutely, it's embroidered 199 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: in a very tight, cruel work of our life. If 200 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: you want to use a metaphor, it's exactly right. Well, 201 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: the last question I wanted to ask about the film, 202 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: and you've mentioned Sarah Paully, the director, the screenwriter. Was 203 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: it one of your most unusual but gratifying experiences to 204 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: work essentially with an all women team. How did that 205 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: feel different to you than you're career in so many 206 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: other settings. Yeah, So I read the book, I optioned 207 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: the book. I immediately took it to Didi Gardner, who 208 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: is one of the partners in a company called Plan 209 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: B because I had been really interested in the films 210 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: they've made, Moonlight, Twelve Years of Slave, So I sent 211 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: the book to did. She immediately got in touch. We 212 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: got in a room together and she was just passionate 213 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: and one of the people that we first started talking 214 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: about with Sarah Pauly, because she really is an autour. 215 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: She takes it from the first step to the last step. 216 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: So we got in touch with her and she said, 217 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: I have three children, I love my life in Toronto. 218 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: How do we do this so that I can have 219 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: a life? And we said, we're really interested in that. 220 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: So let's have short days, let's have childcare, Let's find 221 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: the farm, live on the farm, shoot it on the farm, 222 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: do it in the summer when you're kids are off 223 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: of school. And we were able to accomplish maybe not 224 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: all those things, but because we were a female led organization, 225 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: mostly family oriented, it changed our perception of everything. We're 226 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: taking a quick break. Coming up, Francis shares how she 227 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: went from supporting actor to leading protagonist on screen and 228 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: in her own life. Now, let's switch gears a bit 229 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: and talk about how you got into acting in the 230 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: first place. Where did that come from? I like starting 231 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: with when I was in second grade to kind of 232 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: lead up to this point in my professional life. You know, 233 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: I lived in small rural cities towns most of my life, 234 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: and my local library had a summer program where if 235 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: you read ten books, you got your polaroid put on 236 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: the corkboard at the end of the summer. And I 237 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: read ten books, most of them were biographies of women 238 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: explorers and writers, and I got my picture put up 239 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: on the corkboard Hillary and it never stopped. And then 240 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: there was a point in my when I was a 241 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: teenager when literature that had already become my fantasy life 242 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: became a social life. When I started reading Shakespeare and 243 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: an English teacher said, let's put on some scenes after school, 244 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: And then I realized that literature could become something that 245 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: was actually with other people in a room, and then 246 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: that grew into my becoming an actor. How did you 247 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: translate those experiences as first a child, then a tea 248 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: major into the awareness that hey, I can do that. 249 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: Were there people in addition to the teacher who encouraged you, 250 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: where their role models that you saw out in the 251 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: world that you said to yourself, Hey, that's what I 252 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: want to be. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It started 253 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: with these very rare individuals who in the educational system 254 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: because I, you know, I come from a working class background, 255 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: and so I went through public school, you know, in 256 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, and those teachers recognized because I 257 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: was a very quiet, shy person. I wasn't one of 258 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: those children who want everybody said, oh, she'll be an actor, 259 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 1: because I was always app dancing or something. Now, I 260 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: was always in the corner reading, But there was something 261 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: about it was where my intellect lies. I have an 262 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: intuitive intellect. I don't necessarily have a you know something 263 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: that my husband Joel and I are always talking about. 264 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: I bring him towards the corporal and he brings me 265 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: towards the intellectual. But there's an intelligence there, and I 266 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: think that you know, in public school, when I was 267 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: growing up, with things like wood shop and car mechanics 268 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: and technological classes, everyone's intellect was found. If you couldn't 269 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: pass math because you just did not have that kind 270 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: of brain, but someone saw you build a bookcase or 271 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: put together a car engine, they understood that you had 272 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: that kind of intellect, and then they could they shepherd 273 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: you towards those kind of futures. So I had teachers 274 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: who saw that I was not passing math and I 275 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: was not passing science, but I couldn't stay out of 276 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: the books in English and all kinds of literature was 277 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: my candy, was my joy. It wasn't just from a 278 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: theatrical point of view, but they would ask me if 279 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to stay after class and read other Shakespeare plays. 280 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: They would give me books to read. When I was 281 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: in college, there was no theory or major. I was 282 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: the only theater major in college. But the head of 283 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: the theater program, doctor Judy, said, you need to go 284 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: to graduate school. You need to be among your peers 285 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: and have three more years to test yourself against this 286 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: thing you love. And then I went to drama school. 287 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: At Yale, and I was given the opportunity to think 288 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: of myself as an artist. For three years, I went 289 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: on full scholarship, I had work study, I had to 290 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: work my way through that. But by the time I 291 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: got out of that seven years, I believed to myself 292 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: and I quickly started had to do a past's Blue 293 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: Ribbon commercial to play the rent, but I did it 294 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: as an actor. I paid my rent as an actor. Oh, 295 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: I love that. And you have played a series of 296 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: iconic women that we all know and we think about. 297 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: Was that something that just kind of evolved? I sank. 298 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: You know, here we are at a certain age, right, Hillary, 299 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: I'm sixty five. Love of acting started when I was fourteen, 300 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: so I've done it for fifty years, let's say. And 301 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: I would say the first half of my professional career 302 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: I played supporting roles to male protagonists, especially in film, 303 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: not on stage. Stage has always offered female actors a 304 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: wider range of three dimensional characters, but the majority of 305 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: the work I did in film was supporting roles. And 306 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: I think that because I was really born to be 307 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: a leading actor on stage. That's kind of what I 308 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: was trained to do, is play the cannon of all 309 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: those Lady Macbeth Clytemnestra had a gobbler, all the ones 310 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: that you you know that you would read on on 311 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: Glenda Jackson's resume. Yes, but I think that I got 312 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: very very good at playing supporting roles, as many women 313 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: do in our lives, not just on stage and film, 314 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: but in my life. I boarded one of the best 315 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: filmmakers of our generation. And then when our son graduated 316 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: from high school about a year before that, I knew 317 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: that I would be bereafed. Being introduced to my son 318 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: and being privy to his becoming an adult is really 319 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: the greatest gift of my life. So I knew that 320 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: I would be bereft and I needed to focus on 321 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: something else to get out of his way. And so 322 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: that's when I optioned all of Kittridge and started developing that, 323 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: and that's when I started playing leading roles in film 324 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: and I have since then. What a creative way to 325 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: deal with your empty nest syndrome. Yeah, I love that 326 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: because you loved being a mom and you loved taking 327 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: care of a house. I mean, you've I've read that, 328 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: You've said that before. It's I have to say, let's 329 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: face it. It's sometimes a better hobby than a full 330 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: time job. I really like it as a high. Sometimes 331 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: it's like, well, somebody else, Like I'm not going to 332 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: go over there and pick up that anymore. Somebody else, 333 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to train myself not to pick 334 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: that up anymore. But I think, yeah, I think that 335 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: there's something about becoming the leading protagonist in your life. 336 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: Is there's something kind of metaphorical about it. You did 337 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: and you have and you know, when I think about 338 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: the iconic women that you've played, Marge Gunderson and Fargo, 339 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: Olive Kitteridge, Fern in nomad Land, they all seem in 340 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: their own ways, you know, very iconoclastic, eccentric, quirky, you know, 341 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: in Three Billboards, obviously outraged. I mean, there's just strong emotion, 342 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: but also a sense of commitment to living a life 343 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: on her own terms. How do you think about these 344 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: characters in relation to your own life right now? When 345 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: I first came to New York, Killery and I was 346 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: offered a meeting with the casting director, she sat me 347 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: down and she said, here's some things you need to know. 348 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: You got to get that tooth fixed. I had a 349 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: little chip in my front tooth. She said, you have 350 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: to learn how to use some makeup and wear high heels, 351 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: because you'd make a great pioneer woman. But they're not 352 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: making that many Westerns these days. So I went out 353 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: her door not very happy, and spent a few days 354 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: thinking about that, and lo and behold. I think if 355 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 1: you look at those characters that you've mentioned, Fern, Mildred Pays, 356 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: Marge Gunderson, Olive Kittridge, there's something about them that I 357 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: think belies her advice, that they are those kind of women, 358 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: a kind of American iconic women who they're like standing stones, right, 359 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: They're like those rocks out in the desert somewhere. Yes, exactly. 360 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of what they characters represent. 361 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: But I also I'm really interested also in that. So 362 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: all of Kitch was adapted from the novel by Elizabeth 363 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: Strout by Jane Anderson. Nomad Land was created by Chloe Jow. 364 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: Both Marge Gunderson and Mildred Hayes were written by Joel 365 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: and Nathan Cohen and Martin mcdonnough, respectively. For me, those 366 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: all the parts were written with me in mind, and 367 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: not only me in mind. Francis McDorman. But the characters 368 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: I played, so Fern was building off Mildred Hayes, Marge 369 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: Gunderson and all of Kittridge as much as other characters 370 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: in kind of modern classic iconography female iconography. Right, They're 371 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: all built on these iconic figures, not just me, right, right. 372 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't Francis McDorman. It was like these iconic ideas 373 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: of woman, and in some cases, like with Mildred Hayes, 374 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: I actually I thought of John Wayne a lot when 375 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: I was playing the part. So there's a lot of 376 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: kind of trying to the idea of how can you 377 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: attach to these characters that have to take you through 378 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: this landscape. I've always thought of my job as I'm 379 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: in a service position. I'm serving the role that's offered, 380 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: and that as I've gotten older, I'm able to help 381 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: develop those characters with the storytellers more and more. But 382 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: I'm serving the characters as much as I'm serving the story. 383 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: That's such a good way of putting it. I mean, 384 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: because these characters deserve to be seen and heard, and 385 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: you have done that so beautifully that these women become 386 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: almost part of our consciousness, our collective consciousness, and I hope. 387 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: So I believe well, speaking for myself, I believe that. 388 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: And may I add something to this that we know? Yes, 389 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: A journalist said after watching them, I think it was 390 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: Mildred Hayes and Three Billboards. He said, watching my face 391 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: was like visiting a national park, which I love because 392 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: I have valleys, I have maces and peaks that I've earned, 393 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: every single one of them, every single one of them. 394 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: And you have shown a real fearlessness in rejecting a 395 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: lot of these unrealistic and very restrictive Hollywood beauty standards. 396 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: Where does that fearlessness come from? Trust me, I think 397 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: about it a lot. I have to think about it 398 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: a lot. Sometimes my husband will say, will you please 399 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: shut up? I'm tired of hearing you say that somebody 400 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: are so and so you know it's like, but so 401 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: you tell him you are talking to a national park. 402 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: Respect Please, you better watch out, mister, right We're talking 403 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: to a national park right here. But you know, I 404 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: also think there's a couple of things, and he certainly 405 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: has something to do with it, because I've often said 406 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: when my husband looks at me the face that he reflects, 407 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: he likes what he sees. If he didn't like what 408 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 1: he saw, my face would be looking like his, and 409 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: so I would have a lot more lines on my 410 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: face that were sadder. But I have happy lines because 411 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: that's what I'm reflecting. But I also think it's in reaction. 412 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: You know. I give a lot of credit to that 413 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: casting director because I left that room saying, Okay, I'm 414 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: not what they expect, but they're gonna need one of 415 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: me one day, and I'm going to be the best 416 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: one of that that I can be. If they need 417 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: somebody bigger or shorter, or this or that, I'll be 418 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: that other thing. I'm gonna be unique. I'm gonna be me. 419 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: Every story needs him. We're taking a quick break. Stay 420 00:27:53,720 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: with us, you know. I also love the fact that 421 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: you have done both stage and film work, and you've 422 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: even done experimental theater with companies like the Wooster Group. 423 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: What keeps luring you back? So Liz lacomp who is 424 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: the director of the Wooster Group, and Kate Vauk, who 425 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: is one of the founding members of that group, they're 426 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: dear friends. When my son was starting kindergarten and I 427 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: knew that I wanted to stay in one place. Joel 428 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: and I wanted to be in one place. We raised 429 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: our son in New York City. We wanted him to 430 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: have consistency because the rest of our life was not 431 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: going to be consistent. So I knew that once he 432 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: started school, I was going to stay in New York 433 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: more and do see it or more. And I went 434 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: to them and I said, I've got to have work. 435 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: I know I need work. I need consistent focus. I 436 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: need to keep my engine alive. I've got to keep 437 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: it well tuned. I need a place to go. And 438 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: they said, come here, because it's a matriarchal organization. And 439 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: so I was able to leave to pick him up 440 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: for school. I was able to bring him there if 441 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: I needed to. I was able to skip a day 442 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: if he had a doctor's a point. It was just 443 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: an It was understood, no questions asked. It wasn't just that. 444 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: It's also the way that they make art. They make 445 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: art in a very extraordinary way, and I think that 446 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: the art that they produce is some of the most 447 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: for me. It's where I did my classical performances. You know, 448 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: instead of a more conventional way of doing the classics, 449 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: it was a much more avant garde way of doing 450 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: the classics, So it just suited me more than say 451 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,479 Speaker 1: a production at the Globe or on Broadway or the 452 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: West End. So for me, it was not only something 453 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: that challenged me as an artist, it really gave me 454 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: a home. It gave me a theatrical home. But I 455 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: love the theme that is running through this conversation about 456 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: the importance of creating situations like you did with women 457 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 1: talking having a female sensibility, about childcare, about shooting around 458 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: children's summer vacations. Now talking about you know what you 459 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: found with the Wooster group being able to pick your 460 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: son up at school and do what you needed to do. 461 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so refreshing and still so rare. Institutions 462 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: are not willing to make those kinds of decisions that 463 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: enable more women to pursue their potential and also at 464 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: the same time do what is critically important, you know, 465 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: have relationships, raise children, take care of elderly parents, whatever 466 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: it might be. Absolutely Hillary. I mean, you know, I 467 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: recently looked up the phrase, and I know that you 468 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: heard it and it resonated for you. You can have 469 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: it all. And what's interesting is that so who originally 470 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: said that, I believe it was Betty for Dan and 471 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: then Oprah I think is credited with the second part 472 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: of that statement, which is very important. You can have 473 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: it all, just not all at once exactly. So I 474 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: think that part of my young feminist mind at fourteen 475 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: and fifteen said, oh, I can have it all, then 476 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have it all, and rocket really exhausted. It's 477 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: really hard to fucking have it all. Got to put 478 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: a lot of things in place. So let's take for example, 479 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: because you know nobody is listening to this podcast if 480 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: they don't understand that from your perspective, Secretary Clinton, So 481 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: let's take it from Glenda Jackson's perspective. She didn't decide 482 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,239 Speaker 1: to become a producer of film. She decided to go 483 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: into the parliament years and change policy. Now I'm not 484 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: saying that any actors should become a politician. For God's sake, 485 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: we know how that can work out. But I think 486 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: it is interesting that if you put the kind of 487 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: energy that we you know that actors and producers and 488 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: directors and filmmakers have exercise and practiced into activism. Right, 489 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Like I was saying before, there's good propaganda. There's really 490 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: good ways of understanding who your audience is and how 491 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: they can be educated. So I think, you know, let's 492 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: have it all. Why not, Let's let's have it all right, 493 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: and also give the opportunity for some kind of I believe. 494 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: And what would I often say to you know, when 495 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: we're having screening with college students. I'm not interested in 496 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: taking down the patriarchy that's going to happen naturally as 497 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: a natural evolution of humankind. But I think what I'm 498 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: interested in is really illuminating the matriarchy that has been 499 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: there since the first campfire was and had to be 500 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: kept alive. You know, I could talk to you about 501 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: this all day, but I do want to also ask you. 502 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: You know, another thing you've done is to carve out 503 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: a life for yourself with your husband and your son 504 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: outside of Hollywood. So what's a typical day like for you? 505 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: When you're not shooting a movie, when you're not talking 506 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: to directors, when you're not reading material that you might option, 507 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: how do you spend your time? Well, I'm really really 508 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: fortunate because Joel and I were always interested. We never 509 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: lived in la We lived in LA for work, but 510 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: we always lived in New York City. We raised our 511 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: son in New York City, and we have many friends 512 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with the industry, so we 513 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: didn't live inside it. It was our job, but it 514 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: wasn't our life. We're also very privileged in that we 515 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: can have more than one home. You know. I have 516 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: a home in New York City and I have a 517 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: home in a rural area, which exposes me to nature 518 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: in a way that I couldn't. I could never spend 519 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: all my life in a large city because nature is 520 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,959 Speaker 1: a huge part of my every day. I'm not a 521 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: great planter, but I'm a great pruner. I love to 522 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: prune things. You give me a saw and a couple branches, 523 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: I can spend all day my house. Yeah, I'm ready. 524 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: I love to cook. I have groups of women that 525 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: we get together and we we you know, the classic 526 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: stitch and bitch, but it's not you know, it's a 527 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: little gossip thrown in, but a lot of talk about 528 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: the books we're reading and the information we're sharing. I've 529 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: gotten involved in local politics in a way of with 530 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: affordable housing in the town that I spend time, I 531 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: feel like there's now I think, as a lot of 532 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: we older women know, it doesn't seem like there's enough 533 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: hours in the day to true Oh my gosh. I mean, 534 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: I am constantly saying I have I don't know how 535 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: I have so much to do? All the how much 536 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: to do? You know, but they more importantly, Oh Hillary, 537 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: I want here. I want to ask you something, because 538 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: here's some advice I need. I have been doing the 539 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: same thing for so long, and what I want to 540 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: do is not be so addicted as too dramatic. But 541 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to be at the mercy of the 542 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: thing I've done for so long, because it's defined so 543 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: much of my day and so much of my year. 544 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: I kind of I'm used to these rhythms of Okay, 545 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: you have a movie, you start this process of a movie, 546 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: then you do this part and this part and this part, 547 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: and then you start again. I'd really like to know 548 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: what it's like to get up in Bay and have 549 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: a clear horizon and know that I'll be okay, yeah, yeah, 550 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: well i'd be okay. Hillary, You're gonna be okay, You're 551 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: gonna be You're gonna be totally okay. I hate to 552 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: break it to you, though, I don't know that you're 553 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: ever going to have a clear horizon because your mind 554 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: is going to be constantly churning about out. I got 555 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: to go prune something. I got to figure out how 556 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: to make the inclusion writer real. I've got to, you know, 557 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: figure out how I can support my son as he 558 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: goes off. And you are never going to be someone 559 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: who is not alive and curious and active, and hooray, 560 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: I'm so happy that that is who you are and 561 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: you don't want to give up. I could never give 562 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: up trying to influence politics or trying to, you know, 563 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: support people who I think are going to be, you know, 564 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: better for my grandchildren than other people. So I'm always 565 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: going to be interested in that, and I think that's 566 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: how you you do it well. Thank you. I think Hillary, 567 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's important for the podcast listeners to know 568 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: that you brought me to tears because it's so true 569 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: and the truth always, you know, hits us in the 570 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: most the most deepest way. I also something that I'm 571 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: trying to practice and I know that you you already 572 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: have been practicing this, and I think it's really important 573 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: right now because we have so many female leaders who 574 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: are transitioning in their lives to the next phase. I 575 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: am really interested in pointing towards the people that are 576 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: familiar to me. If you have responded to what I've 577 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: done in my life at sixty five, then I want 578 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: to point you to Ddy Gardner and Sarah Pouly, who 579 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: I worked with on women Talking, and say, these women, 580 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: I trust them, I know what they're doing. I'm going 581 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: to say, everybody follow them. I'll be right over here 582 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: if you need me here, I am right right right 583 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: over here. That's exactly right. You know, we now have 584 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: all these relatively young women in politics. They're governors now. 585 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 1: I just talk to the new governor of Massachusetts who's 586 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: a longtime friend of mine. You just want to do 587 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: whatever you can to not just encourage them personally, but 588 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: to try to create an environment in which they can flourish, 589 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: in which they can do their best work. And you know, 590 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 1: you and I've learned some lessons along the way that 591 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: maybe are useful. But again, we're going to be living 592 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: our lives. People know where to find us, and we 593 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: welcome that. If they're people we want to be in 594 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: conversation with. They are part of our women talking groups, 595 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: so to speak. The Hayloft, Yes, les our own little hayloft. 596 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: The Hayloft is a sacred place. Well, my friend, I 597 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed talking to you, 598 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: seeing you virtually. Thank you, Thank you so much for 599 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: who you are, what you do, and everything that you 600 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: mean and give to us. It's truly a great honor 601 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:57,439 Speaker 1: and delight being with you. Thank you, Madam Secretary. When 602 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: I watch the Oscars this Sunday, I'll be sharing on 603 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: the whole team from Women Talking, And if you haven't 604 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: seen the film yet, I highly recommend you check it out. 605 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: I'm proud to stand with Francis, Sarah Polli, Dedie Gardner, 606 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 1: everyone who is pushing us to support films by people 607 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: whose voices we haven't heard, who've been kept on the 608 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: margins for far too long. Before I sign off, I 609 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: want to let you know we'll be back with a 610 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: new season of you and Me both in the fall. 611 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: But if you can't wait until then, why not check 612 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 1: out our archive. There's so many fantastic conversations there, including 613 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: with the great Glenda Jackson, who Francis was just raving about. 614 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: Glenda still remembers when she was nominated for her first 615 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: Academy Award for the film Women in Love, when it 616 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: did happen. I look back on it now, it was 617 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: quite extraordinary because I was a great disappointment to all 618 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: the kind of journalists beca I didn't look the way 619 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: they told people who would nominate you should look. You 620 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: know what I mean, I do know what to Yes. 621 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: Go to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, 622 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen. 623 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeartRadio. 624 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, 625 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Nick Merrill, 626 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: Laura Olan, Rachel Rosen, Lona Valmorro and Lily Webber. Our 627 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: engineer is Zach McNeice. And the original music is by 628 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: Forrest Gray. That's all for now, but as I said, 629 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: I'll be back in the fall. Until then, you can 630 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,479 Speaker 1: check out all of our past episodes and be sure 631 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: to subscribe to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, 632 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you go to get your podcasts. 633 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening.