1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: On January sixth, nineteen ninety, a twenty one year old 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: woman who will refer to as BT, was working at 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: a convenience store in Covington, Georgia, when around four am 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: she was abducted, forced into a truck, and repeatedly sexually 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: assaulted until she finally escaped ninety minutes later. At the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: time of the assault, her ex boyfriend, Ron Jacobson, was 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty miles away in Chattanooga, Tennessee, with 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: his pregnant fiance and her mother. Over the course of 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: several detailed statements, BT maintained that she did not know 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: her attacker and that at one point during the abduction 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: she thought of fleeing to the home of her friend 12 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: Ron Jacobson when they were close by. Despite these statements 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: and the lack of any physical or forensic evidence inculpating Ron, 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: police ultimately persuaded Bet that she had just repressed the 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: memory of her friend Ron being her actual attacker. At trial, 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Ron's defense failed to bring up the inconsistencies between BT's 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: many earlier statements to Lease and the story of Ron 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: being the perpetrator, and with DNA testing only in its infancy, 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: Ron was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. In 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and three, Georgia enacted a law that allowed 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: for post conviction DNA testing, but the Rape Shield Law, 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: the law that is meant to protect rape survivors from 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: irrelevant character assassinations, was first used to bar the DNA 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: testing in this case, and then the introduction of the 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: results when they clearly excluded Ron as BT's attacker. Finally, 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, the newly elected district Attorney took one 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: look at Ron's case and dismissed all charges. This is 28 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm your host, 29 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: Jason Flahm, and today's story is terrifying for a number 30 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,919 Speaker 1: of reasons. First because of all the things that should 31 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: have pointed investigators away from Ron Jacobson, not Adam, but 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: even more so because, once DNA testing was available to 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: exonerate him, the DA fought tooth and nail both to 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: block that testing and then to maintain a conviction that 35 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 1: they knew was unjust. So, first of all, Ron, I'm 36 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: sorry you're here because of the circumstances that brought you here, 37 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: but I'm happy and honored to have you on the show, 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: Thank You, Thank You, and with Ron, it's one of 39 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: my favorite human beings. Ron's incredible attorney and champion who 40 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: is a driving force not just in the Innocence Project, 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: but also in the movement for justice across the board. 42 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: And of course I'm talking about a voice you'll recognize, 43 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: Vanessa Popkins of Vanessa Welcome back the Wrawful Conviction. 44 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: It's fantastic to be here. 45 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So before all this happened, Ron, you were engaged, 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: a Navy veteran and a father to be, living and 47 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: working between Georgia and Tennessee. Can you tell us a 48 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: little bit about your life before this terrible series of 49 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: events took place. 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: I was working as an autum mechanic and I was 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: doing real good, making good money. My girlfriend was pregnant 52 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 3: with our son and we were planning on getting married. 53 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: I rent a nice house in Georgia, you know, very 54 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: middle class, comfortable life. My life was really really come 55 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: together at that point when this happened. You know, everything 56 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: I worked for was gone. 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 4: Right. 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: So you were renting a place in Georgia, but you 59 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: were kind of spending part of your time in Chattanooga, 60 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: Tennessee with your pregnant fiance. So things are sailing along 61 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: smoothly for now. Have you had any previous run ins 62 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: with the law? 63 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 3: Yes, that was one of the reasons I was in Georgia. 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: I had an auto theft charge back in the eighties, 65 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 3: and I was on parole and I was doing good 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: and you know, no violations, and I wanted to put 67 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: everything behind me and change get all with my life. 68 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: And before we get to the crime, a very important 69 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: fact in this case is that you and the victim, 70 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: this woman who we're referring to as BT, you two 71 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: had dated at some point prior to the incident, right. 72 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 3: Yes, I met her one time. Then about a couple 73 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 3: months later, a mother was dating my roommate and a 74 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: mother mentioned BT. She's working down here at a golden 75 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: pantry off five twenty. She would like to see you, 76 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: talk to you. So you know, I drove on down. 77 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 3: We talked, and when she got off for work, we 78 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 3: drove back to Atlanta, went out to Little five Points 79 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: to the Irish pub, and we started seeing each other. 80 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: I want to say over October. 81 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: So you dated her for approximately how long run? 82 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 3: I want to say, four weeks? Three? Four weeks? All right? 83 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: So Vanessa, take us back to the incident itself on 84 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: the night of January sixth, nineteen ninety. It's an awful, 85 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: unspeakable crime, but just walk us through it, okay. 86 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: So BT was working overnight at the Golden Pantry convenience 87 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: store and abducted into a white, grayish truck and driven 88 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: up the interstate, where the assailant beat her, forced her 89 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: to perform oral sex at some point pulled over and 90 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: vaginally and anally raped her. The assailant kept driving and 91 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: actually ran out of gas, and so they were pulled 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: over on the side of the road and somebody stopped 93 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: seeing the car in distress on the side of the road, 94 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: and the assailant got into the car with this good 95 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: samartan and drove off, presumably to get gas. And so 96 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: bast saw this as her opportunity to escape. She ran 97 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: to a nearby house and ultimately knocked on the door. 98 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: The person who lived there, you know, opened it up 99 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 2: and saw BT, who was bloody and shaken up, and 100 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: called police. At this point, the Sheriff's office actually had 101 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 2: already arrived at the Golden Pantry because a customer had 102 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: come in noticed that nobody was in the store, saw 103 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 2: blood and the store in disarray, and so had called 104 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: the sheriff office and somebody from a convenience door across 105 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: the way had said that they saw BT getting into 106 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: this truck, and so she was immediately taken to the hospital. 107 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: They performed a sexual assault kit and recovered male DNA. 108 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they found more evidence as well, right, a 109 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: bloody handprint on the wall, folding knife outside on the ground, 110 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation did GBI performed blood 111 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: tests on the knife and the handprint, so they had 112 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: tons of evidence, imagine. They also had a description of 113 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: the truck. Now, was the assailant wearing a mask by chance? 114 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: No, But it's hard to know actually what really happened 115 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: because BT gave different stories to the police. So in 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: the week right after the crime, she talked to the 117 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: police on three different occasions, and the first time she 118 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: did she gave a really detailed statement, and she said 119 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: that she was working at the convenience door and that 120 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: a group had come in of two guys and two 121 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: girls earlier in the evening, and that one of the 122 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: men returned several hours later, and that was the person 123 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: who came behind the counter. And ultimately abducted her. And 124 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: in this statement she was extremely detailed and very specific 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: about the assailant being a stranger. She told police that 126 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: she said to him, I'm quoting, I said, what did 127 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: I ever do to you? I don't even know you, 128 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: she said, I just knew my own personal opinion. He 129 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: had come by the store, saw me earlier, got the 130 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: idea that I might be there alone, come in there. 131 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: Sure enough, I wasn't so busy, So he took off 132 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: young girl alone three o'clock in the morning. 133 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 4: Why not. 134 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: So she's very detailed about this being a stranger, and 135 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: she even says it's this person who was with a 136 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: group earlier in the evening. And then she goes on 137 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: to give other statements. Two days after the attack, she 138 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: gives a description of her assailant. She talks about him 139 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: being five no five point ten. She wasn't clear if 140 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: he had tattoos. Of course at that time, Ron is 141 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: a half a foot taller. He's six'. Three he has multiple, 142 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: Tattoos so she's describing somebody who's Not. Ron and then 143 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: she gives a third, statement, right which is a written, 144 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: statement and the police take her on a drive through 145 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: of the route that the assailant had taken, her and 146 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: she points several locations where she was sexually assaulted and 147 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: walks through a lot of. Details she says in this 148 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 2: statement that at one of the stops during the attack 149 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: that she thought this could be an opportunity to, escape 150 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: and that she had a, Friend Ronald, jacobson who lived, 151 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: nearby and she, said you, know MAYBE i could escape 152 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: IF i have the, chance AND i could get help from. 153 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: HIM i, mean it's all. Craziness the victim grant that 154 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: she's traumatized for, sure but she said she was hoping 155 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: to escape to the home of none other Than Ron. 156 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Jacobson how do we square that with the idea That Ron, 157 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: jacobson she later, says was the guy who was attacking. 158 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: HER i, mean how did they eventually convince her to identify? 159 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: Him and they interviewed her father as, WELL i, mean 160 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: how does that play into? 161 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: This so she told police that at the time that 162 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: the assailant came into the, store that there was somebody 163 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: else with her and she couldn't really remember who it, 164 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: was but she thought it Was Bob, knight who was 165 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: an older man who had worked at the store. Previously 166 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: but was friends with her. Father in the days following her, 167 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: Attack Bob knight and the father are talking and the father, says, 168 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: well you, know she was having some issues with this 169 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 2: guy she, Dated Ron. Jacobson maybe he did. It So 170 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: Bob knight Takes Ron jacobson's name to the police and, 171 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: SAYS i THINK i know who the assailant, Is Ron. 172 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: Jacobson Bob knight had never Met Ron. Jacobson he's just 173 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: going off of this statement that the dad. Said so 174 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: police pull a picture Of Ron, jacobson HIS dmv photograph 175 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: and show it To Bob, knight who then, says that's 176 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 2: the PERSON i saw in the. Store BUT i mean 177 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: that lineup or photo show up procedure is just bonkers 178 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: and of, itself because they give Him Ron jacobson's driver's, 179 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: license which presumably has his name on, it and he, says, 180 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: yeah that's the. Guy and so based on, that the 181 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: police go back TO bt and say we think we 182 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: know who did. It It's Ron, jacobson and she, says, 183 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: no it. Wasn't so she's adamant that it's Not. Ron 184 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: and then the police want to polygraph. Her so you 185 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: HAVE bt saying, no it's Not, ron and the police 186 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 2: saying we don't believe, you and we're going to polygraph. 187 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: You i've never even seen this circumstance in any case 188 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: That i've worked, on where the police seek to polygraph 189 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: the victim because the victim is not identifying the person 190 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: who they believe is the. Suspect but that's what was happening. 191 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: Here it turns out THAT, bt at the time of 192 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: her attack was newly, pregnant and so the polygrapher refused 193 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: to administer the, polygraph and instead the police consult with 194 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: a behavioral analyst at The Georgia bureau Of investigation that 195 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 2: says to, them go back to, her talk to. Her 196 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 2: sometimes victims repress, things tell her you know what, happened 197 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: and eventually she'll remember and she'll come forward with the. 198 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: Information and so that's what. Happens they go back to 199 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: her and then she eventually says it Was. 200 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: Ron and then six days, Later january, Twelfth, ron they 201 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: brought you. In how did that? GO i, mean you 202 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: must have been shocked to even find yourself in that 203 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: situation in the first. 204 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: Place, WELL i was at work In atlanta and the 205 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: phone ring it was my pro, officer he, said, LOOK 206 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: i do you come into the office as fasts. POSSIBLE i, said, 207 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: Okay i'll be. There So i'm thinking to, myself, okay 208 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 3: it's a random your analysis and. Out SO i told 209 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 3: My BOSSTON i, said, LOOK i gotta. Go i'll be 210 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 3: back an. Hour SO i walk into THE pro. Office 211 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: ANOTHER pro officer walks in behind, me pushed me against the, 212 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: wall put me in a, handcuffs Says i'm under. Arrest so 213 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 3: Now i'm, wondering you, know for. WHAT i didn't violate 214 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 3: parole and they said, no for a sexual suit of 215 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: this VICTIM, Bt and SO i, EXPLAINED i, SAID bt, 216 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 3: NAH i was In tennessee With, janey my, Girlfriend and 217 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: they called The sheriff's department and THE gbi Agent sheriff's 218 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 3: department come, up picked me, up drove me back to 219 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: the county. Jail so it was a total shock to. 220 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: Me so police didn't record the, interrogation but nonetheless they 221 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: would have had an issue to police report that was 222 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: written in the first, person as If ron had written it, 223 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: right and then of course to double down on this obvious. 224 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: Malfeasans they also never showed a copy of the report 225 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: To ron or his team to determine whether it was 226 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: accurate or. Not And ron was arrested the same, day 227 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: charged with aggravated side of me, kidnapping with bodily injury 228 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: and bated. Assault and then six months Later ron went 229 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: to trial In Newton County Superior court and in the 230 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: opening state with the, prosecutor now get this, Okay the 231 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: prosecutor acknowledged that the case was. Problematic he said that 232 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: the police quote went back TO bt and kind of 233 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: told her who it, was and at that point in, 234 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: time she, said, yes it was, him and she went 235 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: and told the whole same story, again but just supplied 236 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: his name at this point in time. Unquote so from 237 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: what we already know of the, investigation that summary is 238 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: misleading at. Best there, was of, course zero physical or 239 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: forensic evidence Tying ron to the. Crime so it comes 240 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: down to the problematic testimonies To Bob knight AND, bt 241 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: to which the jury was simply not aware of how 242 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: these pieces of evidence were. Gathered, Now night testified that 243 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: he Recognized ron as the man who came into the 244 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: store that night as he was, leaving and THEN bt 245 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: went ahead and identified You ron as her, attacker and 246 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: she said she didn't immediately to fire because you had 247 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: threatened to kill her if she. Did, Now, vanessa go 248 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: ahead and tell us about the defense. 249 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: HERE bt is never really confronted with the detailed statements 250 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: that she gave implicating somebody. Else it is mentioned at 251 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: trial that she initially didn't say it Was, ron and 252 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: she says it was because you, know she was scared 253 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: of her. Life but just not saying it Was ron 254 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: at the beginning could mean you didn't say it in 255 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: the first hour or. Two it doesn't mean you. Know 256 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: and the jury never was told you gave these really detailed, statements. 257 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: Right you talked about even going To ron for. Help 258 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: you talked about this group of people coming in and 259 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: one of the guys coming, back and you saying to, 260 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: HIM i don't even know. YOU i, mean none of 261 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: that came out to the. Jury so there's two, Possibilities, 262 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: right it wasn't turned over and either the police buried 263 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: it or the prosecution buried, it or it was turned 264 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: over and his defense attorneys failed to use. IT i 265 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: don't have the answer to, that as the records aren't, 266 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: perfect and Because ron's lawyer was so bad that it 267 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: is possible that he didn't use it and the witnesses 268 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: That ron had in his favor to say that he 269 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: was one hundred and fifty miles away when this. Happened 270 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: it was his girlfriend at the time who was pregnant her. 271 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: Mother they were WATCHING tv at two thirty three in the. 272 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: Morning he's hours away from where this crime happened at 273 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: shortly probably after four. Am and there's reason that they 274 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: would remember this. Night it was just within days of 275 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: his girlfriend's. Birthday he had gone up there that. Weekend 276 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: he brought our car as a, president and so it's 277 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: just none of that really came out at trial to 278 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 2: really add credibility and show why these people who were 279 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: testifying and had been With, ron you, know why they 280 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: were so believable and, credible and that just didn't come. 281 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: Out it was just like five questions and you're. Done 282 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: the defense That ron. HAD i, mean this is where 283 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: you feel like you're in a, movie like this is 284 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: a horror. Movie you're From, brooklyn you're stuck basically In. 285 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: Georgia you're now facing, trial and your lawyer is scared 286 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: of his own shadow or just doesn't. Care AND i 287 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: think one just being an outsider in this, place which 288 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: is you, know close To, atlanta but world's away. Right 289 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: even on his booking sheet there was a line for 290 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: deformities and the deformity listed Is brooklyn Accent. 291 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: Ron what are your recollections of the? 292 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 3: Trial stranger in a strange. Land my trial attorney came 293 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: to see, ME i believe maybe twice at the most. 294 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: Repair he never talked to none of my witnesses till 295 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: the day to. Trial so the night before my attorney 296 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 3: comes walking down to the jail and he, said we 297 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: got the trial in the. Morning try to get a 298 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 3: haircut and cut your. BEARD i got an old rusty. 299 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 3: RAZOR i trimmed my beard. Off so the day to, 300 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: TRIAL i go. In now you got this prosecutor Ton 301 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 3: jerry look at. Him he tried to change his. Appearance 302 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 3: he shaved his beard. Off so basically everything my trial 303 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 3: attorney did was. Negative when he HAD bt on the witness, 304 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 3: stand he popped the question off as, well watch your relationship. 305 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: Tonight the district Attorney JOHN i you, know he jumped 306 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 3: up said, whoa, whoa. Whoa you told the judge get 307 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 3: the jury out of, here and they disciplined my. Attorney 308 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 3: they brought up the rape. Shield you're not supposed to 309 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: ask no kind of sexual, relationships pass, relationships but you 310 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: know it was too. Late the jury already heard this, 311 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 3: question so they bring it, back and from that point, 312 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: on my attorney sat there and drew little sailboats on his, 313 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 3: pad so it was a foregone. Conclusion you KNOW i 314 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 3: was going to get. 315 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: Convicted he drew little sailboats on his, pass and you're 316 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: sitting there watching him do. This so you've got like 317 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: a split screen horror. Show you've got these people up 318 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: there telling all kinds of lies about, you and you've 319 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: got the one person who's there that's supposed to be 320 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: your last line of, defense really drawing fucking sailboats on a. 321 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: Pass it's really. Not and then of course it gets 322 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: worse because On june, twelfth nineteen, ninety the jury convicted 323 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: you of, aggravatedstomy can have a bodily injury and aggravated 324 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: a sodden sense of your life in. Prison it was 325 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: a horror. 326 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 3: Show THEN i took the stand in my own. Defense 327 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: my trial attorney you never really asked me any, questions 328 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 3: but then to prosecute he told the jury EVERYTHING i. 329 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 3: Said i'm a pathological, liar habitual. LIAR i brought up 330 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 3: about the, police you, know with the, statements and, oh 331 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: so you're accusing the police of being liars when you're the. 332 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 3: Liar but you know small town politics and HERE i, 333 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 3: am you, know From, brooklyn Outsider New, yorker and this 334 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 3: is what. HAPPENS a gross mischaracter justice cost me thirty, 335 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 3: years eight, months and thirteen days of my. 336 00:18:45,200 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: Life this episode is underwritten BY, aig a leading globaling insurance, 337 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: company and By, accenture a global professional services company with 338 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 1: leading capabilities in, digital cloud and. Security working to reform 339 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system is a key pillar of THE 340 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: aig Pro Bono, program which provides free legal services and 341 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in 342 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: need as part Of eccentsure's commitment to racial and civil. 343 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: Justice Accenture's Legal Access program provides pro bono legal services 344 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: in partnership with more than forty, organizations bringing meaningful change 345 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: to people and communities. 346 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 3: Worldwide WHEN i first went to, prison it's basically like 347 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 3: a wild dog. Pack everybody wants to be an alpha, 348 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: male so you don't trust. Nobody you got to watch your, 349 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: back you got to watch what you, say and the 350 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 3: guards you, know they don't care people getting killed there every, 351 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: week no prosecution on them because you got twenty year 352 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 3: old kids with life. Sentences no whole again, now so 353 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 3: they're going to do what they. Want when you first get, 354 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: convicted you go through the. Stage it's a lot of, 355 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 3: anger anger at the. World then it's. Acceptance you say to, Yourself, 356 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 3: okay this happened to, me what are you going to 357 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 3: do about? It so now you educate, yourself go to 358 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 3: the law, library you start, reading start. Researching AND i 359 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 3: happened to be watching yoj trial And i've Seen barryshack 360 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 3: talking ABOUT. DNA i talked to my. MOM i, said 361 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: look THAT dna is going to clear me one. Day 362 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 3: SO i started. Researching i've Seen barryshak wrote a, Book Actual, 363 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 3: innocence so my mom sent it to. ME i read 364 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 3: this book like sixteen. Times and at the, time around 365 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: two thousand and, Three georgia passed the law from post 366 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: CONVICTION dna. Testing SO i sat, down wrote thirteen fifteen 367 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 3: page letter The Georgia Innocent project and The Innocent project 368 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 3: In New york And. Georgia people wrote me right, back said, 369 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: okay we'll help. You we'll take your, case send us 370 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: you transcripts and. Everything SO i. Did about a year goes, 371 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 3: by they send everything, back says at this, time we 372 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 3: can't do nothing for, you but your case is still. 373 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 3: Open ten years go. By it was in twenty. Thirteen 374 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 3: out of the, BLUE i get a. Letter go up 375 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: to the mail, room get legal, mail and here it 376 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 3: is a letter from THE Us project says we're going 377 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 3: to accept your. Case and it was just like a 378 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 3: wy to load off my. Back SO i run over 379 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 3: to Low, library get. Everything note OF us gets straight into, 380 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 3: mail And i've been working With vanessa seven eight years. 381 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: Now it's been an uphill. 382 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: Battle, yeah uphill sounds about, right because from WHAT i 383 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: understand is that THIS da who's, now by the, way a, 384 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: judge her Name's, leylasan she fought both to disallow THE 385 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: dna testing to begin with and then to disallow the 386 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: admission of results that they knew would have cleared, you 387 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: which is just freaking. Nuts So, vanessa can you tell 388 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: us about the fight against THIS Da, leilazan who was 389 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: just hell bent on maintaining this awful. 390 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 2: Injustice THE dna test results that we obtained Clearing ron 391 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 2: came back in twenty, seventeen and when we got those, 392 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: results THE Da Opposed relief fought against a new, trial 393 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 2: and her primary argument Was ron could not use these 394 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 2: test results to prove his innocence because the rape shield 395 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: law prevented him from using THE dna to secure his. 396 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 2: Exoneration so the rape shield law is a law that 397 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: has been enacted to protect victims of sexual assault from 398 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: defense attorneys going in and trying to, say, oh, well 399 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 2: you know you slept with twenty other people and so 400 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: you weren't really sexually, assaulted or you, consented or try 401 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: to use victim's past sexual history to somehow undermine the 402 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: veracity of his or her. Claim and it has nothing 403 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 2: to do with if you have scientific evidence that goes 404 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: to the heart of who committed the, crime, Right but 405 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: this is how the state was in this. Case their position, 406 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: was we Know ron was the, assailant so if there's 407 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 2: some MALE dna in her rape, kit, that by the, 408 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: way we know couldn't come from a prior act of consensual, 409 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: sex because she told hospital personnel she hadn't had sex 410 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 2: in a week before the, attack so we know it 411 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: couldn't have come from anyone. Else but their position was 412 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: since it Excluded, ron it had to come from somebody. 413 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: Else she must be, lying she must have not been 414 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 2: honest about another, encounter and Therefore ron can't use. It 415 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: and it's like that was, crazy and even ultimately THE 416 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: da recognized was crazy because of some cases that were 417 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: going on in The Georgia Supreme court at the. Time 418 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: so she tried to use the rape shield law as 419 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: a rape shield sword Against. Ron then when that didn't 420 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: prevail and his conviction was, vacated he was being held 421 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: in the county jail with no. Bail he was in 422 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: on a sexual assault for which he had already served thirty, 423 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: years and the court declined to set fail and so 424 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: he was in jail for over a year with no. 425 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: Activity the state have made no real attempt to bring 426 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: this case to, retrial but wouldn't dismiss the. Charges and, 427 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: then of course THE covid nineteen pandemic, hits and so 428 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 2: In april of twenty, twenty we make this emergency motion 429 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: to set bail In ron's. Case this is when the 430 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 2: pandemic's taking. Off it starts to spread like wildfire in. 431 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 2: Jails people in jails are sitting, ducks Right they don't 432 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 2: have access to mass and purel and all of the 433 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 2: things that people were clamoring for out in. Society and 434 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 2: so it's at this point that we finally are approaching 435 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 2: a hearing. Date and by the, way in this, jurisdiction 436 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: if you file, emotion the only way you can get 437 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: on the court's calendar is if THE da sets it. 438 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: Down so for a while she wouldn't even set, This 439 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: we couldn't even get the motion. Set and finally we 440 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: get an opportunity that a court's going to hear, it 441 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: and she makes this offer To, ron you, know if 442 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: you just plead, guilty you can get out. Tomorrow she 443 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: even offers him An alford, plea which means that he 444 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: could have maintained his innocence but still pled. Guilty would 445 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: have the same effect as a. Conviction but he could 446 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: have gotten, out you, know the next, day if he 447 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: had just SAID i did. It but by saying, No 448 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: ron wasn't just taking this, stance he was also risking his. 449 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: Life you, know we didn't know what was going to 450 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: go on WITH. Covid he didn't have access to even protect, 451 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: himself so it was even more dangerous than. Usual this 452 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 2: thought that you know by saying, No ron could have 453 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: died in prison and just never had the opportunity to 454 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: even walk. Out and, then of, course after he turns 455 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: down the, deal the state goes into court and argues 456 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: That ron shouldn't get bailed because he's too. Dangerous so 457 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: he's too dangerous to walk out of prison if he's 458 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 2: maintaining his. Innocence but if he had just said he was, 459 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 2: guilty you were going to let him, go. Right and 460 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 2: then to top it all, off the prosecutor, says we oppose, 461 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: bail but if you're going to set, bail set it 462 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: at fifty, thousand and the court Said i'm going to 463 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: set it at five hundred. 464 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: THOUSAND i, mean what master do these people, serve because 465 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: it certainly isn't. Justice And, ron can you take us 466 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: back to that moment when they offered you the plea 467 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: where if you just accepted it and said you were, 468 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: guilty that you could walk out the door the next, 469 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: day right the very next, day after thirty years in. 470 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: PRISON i, mean what went through your mind in that. 471 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 3: MOMENT i thought about that for a split, second AND i, said, 472 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 3: well IF i give, In i've been Saying i'm minison 473 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 3: for thirty. Years, also NOW i won't change my. STORY i, 474 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 3: said you, know the worst they can do if they 475 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: reconvict me is give me a no life. Sentence they 476 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 3: already took everything from. Me my mom died in twenty, 477 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: ten my brother died WHILE i was in. Prison i'm 478 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: living up here with my sister now helping. Her she 479 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 3: supported me for thirty, years and it's my turn to 480 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 3: give back help. Her so by not giving, in if 481 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 3: somebody hears about my, case that's in the same position 482 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: to take a plea. Bargain i'm not holding it against. 483 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 3: Them you, know it's their personal. Choice but if they 484 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 3: look at me and they take some strength and, say, 485 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: Hey i'm, innocent let's prove. It don't give into these. 486 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 4: Bastards it's incredible to hear you say that you thought 487 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 4: about it for a split. 488 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: Second it's like you've already seen the worst aspects of our, 489 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: system so you knew what they could do to. You 490 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: it took a lot of, courage and like you, said 491 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: everybody makes that choice. Differently it's another sort of sick 492 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: thing about our system that people are put into that, 493 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: position having already been through the unbelievable trauma of drawing 494 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: fulm incarceration for, decades and then faced with possibly waiting 495 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: years for another trial and then potentially being framed. Again 496 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: but you stood by your guns and ultimately that was 497 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: clearly the right, decision and all of us are thrilled 498 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: that you've been, vindicated, exonerated and proven to have been 499 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: telling the truth all. Along vanessa helped me out here 500 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: because this is really it's. EVIL i, mean what they 501 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: did to him is, evil, RIGHT i mean that's not 502 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: too strong of a. 503 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: Word, WELL i guess it's not when you consider that 504 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 2: the district attorney Leyla's on who was handling his, case 505 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 2: had been exposed for having a little toy electric chair 506 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 2: on her. DESK i think you've definitely identified the mentality 507 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: that's going on. 508 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: Here And, RON i want to highlight the fact that 509 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: you ended up with a literal dream team, here, RIGHT i, 510 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: mean you Have vanessa and The Innesis. PROJECT i want 511 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: to also shout out the other good guys, Here Donald 512 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: samuel And Amanda Clark palmer from The atlanta law firm 513 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: Of Garland samuel And. Loebe my understanding is that they 514 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: played a really significant role in, this AM i. 515 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, Yes in twenty thirteen when first came on. 516 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: Board that was such a relief over the years talking 517 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 3: on the, phone getting the information about my case and 518 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: learning more and seeing how the process. Works it's, amazing Especially, 519 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 3: vanessa and now That i'm out have access to needing 520 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 3: that SO i could see the scope of The unison, 521 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 3: project how many people they helped and affected their lives 522 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 3: in a positive. Way don And amanda In, Georgia, vanessa 523 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 3: all the, paralegals the law, STUDENTS i can name them. 524 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 3: All i'm in their. 525 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: Debt and we did ultimately work with The Georgia andson's 526 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: project as. Well they were really instrumental when we were 527 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: fighting to get THE dna testing and have been a 528 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: great partner with. 529 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: Us so ultimately justice was delayed by three, decades but not. 530 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: Denied In june twenty, Twenty District Attorney lala Is, on 531 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: one of the major villains in this. Case in an 532 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: ironic twist of, fate her good fortune was the best 533 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: thing that could have happened For ron because when she 534 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: was appointed to A Superior court judgeship and her chief, 535 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: Deputy randy, McGinley was sworn in as the NEW da 536 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: then also elected That, november he promised the review Of ron's. 537 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: Case at this, Point ron was already out on, bail 538 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: but still not free until On august twenty, fifth twenty twenty, 539 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: one d McGinley had Reviewed ron's case and dismissed all the. 540 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 3: Charges on That dayness called, Me she cried and, said you're. 541 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: Free they dropped the charges like it stunned. ME i, said, 542 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 3: nah it took a couple of days of walking around 543 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 3: and letting us sink. In i'm finally. Free, then you, 544 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: know you start thinking about how many more people still 545 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 3: in prison that have no, chance have no, help and 546 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 3: it hurts you, know it bothers you because after so 547 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 3: many years in, prison my, psyche you, know is still 548 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: there with them. People it's something THAT i can't let it. 549 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 3: Go and there's no tone how many countless people that 550 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: are still, innocent still in prison with no, help never 551 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 3: go and get no. Help SO i feel. Blessed don't 552 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 3: take nothing for, granted no. More just one day at a. 553 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: Time, Yeah and it's really incredible to have you here, 554 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: today just weeks since you were fully. Exonerated so for 555 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: those of you who are moved By ron's story and 556 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: who would like to help him as he begins this 557 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: next chapter of his. Life there's An amazon wish list 558 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: as well as A mightycause dot com. Story we're gonna 559 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: put links to both of these in the bio where 560 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: you can donate to Help. Ron so please go click 561 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: on the link in the. Bio do it. Now we're 562 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: going to join you in doing so here At Ronful 563 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: conviction as. Well, so now this is a part of 564 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: the show Called Closing, arguments and it works like. This 565 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: first of, ALL i thank you Again Ron jacobson for 566 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: having a courage to come here and share your incredible, 567 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: story and of Course Vanessa popkin for just being such a, 568 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: superwoman freedom fighter all around just awesome Human and so 569 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: thanks to both of you for being here on the. 570 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: Show and now Closing arguments works like. THIS i turn 571 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: my mic, off kick back in my, chair leave my headphones, 572 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: on and just leave your microphones on so you can 573 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: share any other thoughts that we may have left, out 574 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: or anything that's on your mind of any. Kind So, 575 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: vanessa with all due respect to, you will save the 576 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: best for. Last and of Course, ron that's. You you're 577 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: the featured guest. Here So, vanessa once you go first 578 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: and then just hand it off To, ron and that's 579 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: how we'll close out the. 580 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: Show you, know being here today and listening To ron, 581 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: speak it's just hitting, me particularly now his incredible strength 582 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: and fortitude to have turned down that. Offer and we 583 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: just know how. Coerceive the legal system is pre, trial 584 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: the state tries to extort guilty please to resolve. Cases 585 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: the stakes are so high that you're incentivized to just 586 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 2: take a pleaven when you're, innocent or just give up 587 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: your constitutional rights to a. Trial SO i am respecting 588 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: the amount of courage and strength that took, You ron 589 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: to make that decision and stand up to the, system 590 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: And i'm so proud that you. Prevailed it's making me 591 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 2: think about the judges again that the person really dragged 592 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 2: this out through so many years is now on the. 593 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: Bench we need to get progressive prosecutors in, place but 594 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: we also need to make sure that they're judges on 595 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 2: the bench who are going to also be in line with. 596 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 2: Change and SO i think those are the Takeaways i'm. 597 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: Experiencing in addition To, Ron you're just an all around 598 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: such an incredible. Person and you, know When ron got 599 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: out while he was still fighting to get the charges. 600 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: Dismissed he started going on social media and he was On. 601 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: Facebook and when you're representing someone who could face a, 602 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: retrial it's a real stressor to have them out there 603 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: making all these. Comments SO i thought about reaching out 604 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: To ron and, saying, hey fall back a little. BIT 605 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 2: i was reading what he was saying and his perspective 606 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: on the legal system and, change and it was just 607 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: so right on THAT i was, Like i'm not saying 608 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: anything keep going. 609 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 3: Wrong, well you, know my heart and soul. Bleeds oh 610 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 3: my brothers and sisters still behind. 611 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: The walls with no. 612 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 3: Hope and IF i could be a voice in the 613 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 3: wilderness to help, them you, know that's my goal in 614 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: life right? Now do you use my exoneration to help 615 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 3: the next person pay, forward whatever it. Takes and The 616 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 3: Innocent project and The Innocent, network they do incredible work 617 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 3: AND i thank them every. 618 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: Day thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction please support 619 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: your local innocence organizations and go to the links in 620 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: our bio to see how you can. Help i'd like 621 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: to thank our production Team Connor, Hall Justin, Golden Jeff, 622 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: clyburn And kevin wardis the music on this show as 623 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: always is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph 624 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful, conviction 625 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: On twitter at Wrong, conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction. 626 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: Podcast Wrongful conviction is a production Of lava For Good 627 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: podcasts in association With Signal Company number one