1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We're heading into 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: the Old Vault. This episode originally aired April twenty first, 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and it's part two of our series 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: on the vegetable Lamb of Tartary. 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Dig in sounds delicious. 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: is Robert. 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 2: two of our series on the vegetable Lamb of Tartary, 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: a legendary creature that appeared in medieval and Renaissance European 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: bestiaries and travelogs, such as the Travels of Sir John Mandeville. 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: If you haven't heard part one of this series yet, 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: this is one where you should really go back and 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: check that out first so you'll know what we're talking 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: about today. But if you're rejoining us after last time, 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 2: a quick refresher on these legends. The idea was that 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 2: somewhere in Tartary, which is a vast stretch of the 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: Asian mainland, including what is now Central Asia, parts of China, 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: all of Mongolia, and the whole eastern part of Russia. 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: There was said to live a type of zoophyte or 24 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: plant animally a creature with both animal and vegetable properties, 25 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: combining aspects of a sort of bush or shrub with 26 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: a sheep or a lamb. And some sources, like Sir 27 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: John Mandeville describe a plant that grows gourd like fruits, 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: and when you cut these gourds open, they reveal fully 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: formed lambs inside, tiny little lambs which have flesh and 30 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: bone and blood. He says, they're real lambs, and I 31 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 2: ate one of the lambs and it was good. Others 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: or is describe something even more fantastical. I think these 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: are usually sources that come a little bit later than Mandeville. 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: They say that there is a plant that grows a 35 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: fully formed adult lamb or sheep, which is attached to 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 2: the ground via a plant stem that grows into its stomach, 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: and the lamb can only survive while there is still 38 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: herbage for it to graze on within the radius of 39 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: the stem, so the stem is kind of like a tether, 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: and once it eats all of the grass within reach, 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: it starves to death unless it is killed and eaten 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: by wolves or by humans first. And this lamb or 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: sheep is also said to be a real animal in composition, 44 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: having bones and blood and in whichever form. This creature 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: is known under many different names, but the most commons 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: the most common ones would be like the lamb of Tartary, 47 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: the Tartar lamb, or the Boromets or the Barromets. Now, 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: toward the end of the last episode, we talked about 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: phylogenetic reasons that you would not expect to actually see 50 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: an organism like this, so we can be pretty sure, 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: without knowing anything else, that this did not actually exist. 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: Because of course, plants and animals may have many individual 53 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: characteristics that are superficially similar, whether for some adapted reason 54 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: like mimicry or just by chance converging ecological needs and 55 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: so forth, but a plant will never actually grow a 56 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: sheep that has actual muscle, flesh, and bones and blood. 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 2: So the question is where did these legends actually come from? 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: And a couple of major explanations have been offered over 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: the centuries. One very good source that I referred to 60 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: in the last episode, and I'm going to keep talking 61 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: about in this one is a book by a nineteenth 62 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: century English naturalist named Henry Lee, and it's called The 63 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: Vegetable Lamb of Tartary. This was published in eighteen eighty seven. 64 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: Now, in that Karuba paper that I referenced in the 65 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: first episode, the author points out that that various folks 66 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: over over the years sort of the mythic era of 67 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: the bora mets ever since at least you know, the 68 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: seventeenth century, during that period where commentators have known that 69 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: there's no such thing, but have been curious as to 70 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: why such a thing might have been invented, and invented 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: over time that that you know, various folks have chimed 72 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: in on it and brought up various plant specimens, quote 73 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: natural and manipulated to possibly explain it. 74 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: Right. 75 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: And so one of the possible explanations that has been 76 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: brought forth was the the wooly fern explanation and this 77 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: is this is one of the possible explanations that Rose 78 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: mentions Carol Rose mentions in passing and specifically it was 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: suggested that the fern's rhizome or you know, the root 80 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: system might be the lamb in question. And this is 81 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: actually reflected in the scientific name for this species, Subodium borromets, 82 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: and it's also known as the golden chicken fern. And 83 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: I I did a picture of this for you, Joe. 84 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: I actually ended up going to the Atlanta Botanical Garden 85 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: over the weekend, and I didn't get a chance to 86 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: ask anybody if they had one of these around, But 87 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: I kept looking. I was on the lookout for this 88 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: chicken fern, for this possible explanation for the vegetable lamb 89 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: of tardary, but I did not see it. 90 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, a nice furry fern, I mean, does look an 91 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: awful lot like fur. This explanation, I believe first arose 92 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: at the end of the seventeenth century. So, as we 93 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: discussed in the previous part, by this time authors were 94 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: already skeptical of the zoophyte story and they started coming 95 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: up with alternative ways of sourcing the myth. And Henry 96 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: Lee chronicles this by noting that in sixteen ninety eight, 97 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 2: a Sir Hans Sloan offered a presentation to the Royal 98 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: Society of London of a very strange object, and in 99 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: his paper he provides an illustration. Rob I've attached a 100 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: copy of this for you to look at, but we 101 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: can read his illustration and then add anything we want. 102 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: So I'm going to read from the section of Sloan's 103 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: paper that Lee quotes here, but I made some abridgements 104 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: because it was kind of long. So Sloane writes, the 105 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: figure represents what is commonly but falsely in India called 106 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: the tartarian lamb. Sent down from Thence by a mister Buckley. 107 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: This was more than a foot long, as big as 108 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: one's wrist, having seven protuberances, and towards the end some 109 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: footstalks about three or four inches long, exactly like the foot, 110 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: like the footstalks of ferns, both without and within. Most 111 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: part of this was covered with a down of a 112 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: dark yellowish snuff color, some of it a quarter of 113 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 2: an inch long. It seemed to be shaped by art 114 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: to imitate a lamb, the roots or climbing parts being 115 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: made to resemble the body, and the extant footstalks the legs. 116 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: I have been assured by mister Brown, who has made 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: very good observations in the East Indies, that he has 118 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 2: been told by those who lived in China that this 119 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: down or hair is used by them for the stopping 120 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: of blood in fresh wounds, as cobwebs are with us. 121 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: And I'll come back to that, and that they have 122 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: it in so great a esteem that few houses are 123 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: without it. But on trials I have made of it. 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: Though I may believe it innocent, yet I am sure 125 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: it is not infallible. Now, I have several things to 126 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: say about this. First of all, I suspect Sloan is 127 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: wrong that the Lamb of Tartary is actually a legend 128 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: in India or anywhere in Asia, because as far as 129 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: I can tell, this was a legend in Europe about Asia, 130 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: not a legend in Asia itself. Like we talked about 131 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: Engelbert Camphor in the last episode, who traveled all about Asia, 132 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: and he certainly went to Persia, but like different parts 133 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: of Russia and all over. And I think he said 134 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: that nobody knew what he was talking about when he 135 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: asked about. 136 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: This, right, Yeah, they don't know what it's about. They 137 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm talking about when I bring this up. 138 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: It's just pure invention, and the European invention, to be clear. 139 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: But the other thing I would add to this, and 140 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: this is a sidebar, but I couldn't let it go 141 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: were cobwebs, as in spider webs, actually used by the 142 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: English to stop blood flow when somebody had a big 143 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: cut they're bleeding profusely, like, oh no, Johnny got brained 144 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: with an ax. Somebody get a bunch of spiders. 145 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I had not heard this before, and I feel 146 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: like it would have come up. I would have at 147 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: least seen it on Outlander, you. 148 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, exactly. So I looked this up and yes, 149 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: this apparently was a remedy for bleeding in some traditional 150 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: European medicine. So the source I found on this was 151 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: a book by Kathleen Stalker called Remedies and Rituals Folk 152 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: Medicine in Norway in the New Land, published by the 153 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: Minnesota Historical Society in two thousand and seven, and this 154 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: comes in a section of the book talking about home 155 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 2: remedies of Scandinavian peoples, and she says that in some 156 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: cases they would cram parts of beehives and wasp nests 157 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 2: into their wounds because they believed it would help make 158 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: the blood clot And apparently some of them did the 159 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: same thing with spiderwebs. So here's a quote that Stalker 160 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: includes quote stopping blood with cobwebs was so common that 161 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: children learned to apply the remedy themselves, says Hilda Kongsburg 162 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: born eighteen ninety nine in Rollsoy, East, Norway. And then 163 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: this is quoting Kongsburg. When we children were playing, we 164 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: sometimes fell and got hurt. Even for deep wounds or 165 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 2: a badly pinched finger, we would find cobwebs, Kinglevev in 166 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: her dialect, sprinkling. Finally shaved sugar in the wound. First 167 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: we would stuff it with the Kingelvev and wrap a 168 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: rag around it. Soon it would heal. Folks, don't try 169 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: this at home. I think there may be some hygiene 170 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: issues here. I would recommend sticking with sterile bandages if 171 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: at all possible. The other detail also gets me. So 172 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: it's not just putting, like framing spider webs in your wound, 173 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: but also sugar shaved sugar. 174 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, sugar, something sweet, and then also a little spider web, 175 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: a little bit of that Kinglevev. 176 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Well, I was wondering if the reasoning is 177 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: you want the blood to clot and these are both 178 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 2: things that are sticky, sugar and spiderwebs. 179 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know. I mean it does go to 180 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: show that. Yeah, I wouldn't see this an outlander. I 181 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: should be watching that show Vikings, and then I'm surely 182 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: somebody's gonna stop up a wound with some kinglevev. 183 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: Well, as a commentary note on this sidebar, I will 184 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: also say this just makes me think of regression to 185 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: the mean. We have a whole episode on that concept 186 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: if you want to check it out. But as a 187 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,599 Speaker 2: note of scientific intellectual hygiene, you can't know if a 188 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: treatment works just by giving it to somebody who's in 189 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: a bad state and then seeing if they get better. Eg. 190 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: If a person with a cut stops bleeding. Because people 191 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: often get better on their own, you have to have 192 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: a control group. You take bleeding people, split them up randomly, 193 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: some get spider webs, some get some kind of control, 194 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: and then you'd have to see if the people with 195 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: spider webs do better than the control group, not just 196 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: if somebody with the spider web happens to get better. 197 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: Right right. It's like if you're having some sort of 198 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: ailment that's bothering you and you just decide to try 199 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: some sort of a weird tea and then you end 200 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: up feeling better. Well, maybe the tea helped, But maybe 201 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: it didn't. Maybe you just happened to be drinking the 202 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: weird tea whilst your body was going about the It's 203 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: regular healing regime, right. 204 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: Anyway. Coming all back to Hans Sloan, So Sloan at 205 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 2: the end of the seventeenth century, this was the year 206 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: sixteen ninety eight. He believes he has identified the origin 207 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: of the Borometz legend, and it is this little quadrupedal 208 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 2: plant sculpture that is built out of the downy rhizome 209 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: of a Chinese species of fern. Now, over the following centuries, 210 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: a few additional specimen of this sort of Chinese plant 211 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 2: sculpture were publicized by European collectors and museums, and many 212 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: authors clearly believed this was indeed the source of the myth. 213 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: They thought they had cracked it. You'll remember in the 214 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 2: last episode, I read that passage from Erasmus Darwin's naturalistic 215 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: poem The Botanic Garden, where he writes about the boromets. 216 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: The lines were even round the pole, the flames of 217 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: love aspire and icy bosoms feel the secret fire cradled 218 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 2: in snow and fanned by Arctic air shines gentle boromets 219 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: thy golden hair. So why does Darwin specify golden hair 220 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: there when a lot of the older sources said white hair. 221 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: If they said the color at all, well, Henry Lee 222 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: in his book believes this is because Darwin is buying 223 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: into the rhizome theory. So these lamb or dog sculptures 224 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: had a more golden or tan color because that's the 225 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: nature of the plant. The fibers coming off of the 226 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 2: fern rootstock were white, they were like golden or tan 227 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: or brown. So Lee thinks this is not the correct 228 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 2: explanation for the origin of the lamb legend, and I 229 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: think I agree with him, But what's his reasoning. Well, 230 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: he goes on a long discussion of the known properties 231 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: of the ferns used to make these sculptures. He says, 232 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 2: first of all, it is worth noting that we have 233 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: no evidence of these sculptures pre dating the legend. Examples 234 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: only show up long after the legend was already known. 235 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 2: So if there is any link at all, and we 236 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: don't know that there is. But if there is any link, 237 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: why not suppose that the legend inspired the fern root 238 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: sculptures and not the other way around. Furthermore, there are 239 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: actually only a handful of specimens of these sculptures, so 240 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: that they are a little, you know, quadrupedal animal looking things. 241 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: Somebody is clearly made out of this this fern rhizome 242 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: with the stems cut to look like legs of a 243 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: sheep or a dog or something. But are we sure, 244 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: I mean, so we have like four or five of 245 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: these maybe in total. Are we sure they were ever 246 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: widespread enough to have given rise to this story? But 247 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: then so these are I think the more minor concerns. 248 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 2: Lee gets to the really serious objections to this explanation 249 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: after this. First of all, he says, these ferns do 250 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: not grow in the land that was then known as Tartari. 251 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: So Tartari again was the more northern part of the 252 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: Asian mainland at the time. These plants are from the 253 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: southern part of the Asian mainland. They're from like parts 254 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: of northeastern India, and they're from southern China and like 255 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: a I believe, the Malaysian Peninsula. So this would have 256 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: the legends sourcing them in the wrong place. And also 257 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: the fern in no way really matches the botanical properties 258 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: of the plant described in the stories, except that it 259 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: is downy, so it's said to grow from a seed 260 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: that is like a gourd or a melon. Ferns are 261 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: nothing like this. They don't grow from a seed like 262 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: a gord or a melon. Furthermore, some of the legends 263 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: say that these seeds were deliberately planted by the people 264 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: around Indi, hating that this plant, whatever it was, if 265 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: it existed, is used in some kind of agriculture, and 266 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: these ferns are not like that. Also, what are we 267 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: to make of the early version of the story, like 268 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: the one told by Sir John Mandeville or the person 269 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: claiming to be Sir John Mandeville saying that, Okay, you 270 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: take one of these gourds, you cut it open, and 271 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: then inside the fruit, that's where you find the lamb 272 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: that doesn't resemble this fern, you know, animal sculpture in 273 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: any way. And finally, the color thing. The legends describe 274 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: the wool of the vegetable lamb as white when they 275 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: mentioned the color at all, and the wooly fibers of 276 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: the fern rhizome are more golden or tan. 277 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you look at at actual photographs of 278 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: this fern and it does look it looks furry. It 279 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: looks like alf hath dyed and ferns hath sprung from 280 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: his body, you know. And I'll also add that this 281 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: illustration you shared with the stems coming up, this is 282 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: from Philosophical Transactions, black and white illustration. You know. These 283 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: these actually to me anyway, they look kind of like 284 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: lamb chops. The way that they have them angled. There's 285 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: curvature to them, and you do see that curvature in 286 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: images all of the actual fern, the actual willly fern. 287 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: But but but I only really draw this comparison when 288 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about lamb and lamb meat, and I'm looking 289 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: at these two images. I'm not sure if I saw 290 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: this in the wild, I would think, whoa, this is 291 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: totally the body of a dead brown sheep. 292 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, if it were, I mean, if it were the 293 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: lamb chops thing. Obviously, like you're saying, they would have 294 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: to be subliminal, because I think these these these footstalks 295 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: here are supposed to be the legs of the lamb, 296 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: Like the downy part the rhizome is the body and 297 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: then the stalks coming off of it are the legs. 298 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: But yeah, they do look like the bones poking out 299 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: of a rack of lamb. Yeah, after the so called 300 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: frenching is done to the bones. 301 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's term. But certainly the whole thing with the 302 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: if you cut into the rhizome, you're not going to 303 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: find blood, You're not going to find bones and so forth. 304 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, that doesn't hold up at all. 305 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 2: So anyway, Lee summarizes by saying, even if I had 306 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: no better explanation to offer, I should be led to 307 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: the conclusion that the identification of these tawny toy dogs 308 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: made in China from the root of a wild fern, 309 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 2: the spores of which are as small as dust, with 310 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: the vegetable lambs of Scythia that being another name for 311 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 2: this another name used for this region known as Tartari, 312 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: you know, the Central Asian kind of region whose white 313 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: fleeces were found within the ripe and opening fruit of 314 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: a cultivated plant raised from a large seed, was obviously erroneous, 315 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: and that the origin of the rumor must be software elsewhere. 316 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: And you know what I'm going to say, I agree, 317 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 2: But Lee has another explanation, and I think he offers 318 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: some pretty compelling evidence that this is the right one. 319 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: The other explanation is that the lamb of Tartari legend 320 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 2: originates from a confused string of misinterpretations of observations of 321 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: the cotton plant. 322 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: That's right, because what do we have with cotton, Well, 323 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: we have pods ripening and opening to reveal wool essentially, 324 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: or something very similar to wool. And this lines up 325 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: very closely, you know, with what we see in the 326 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: myth as well. Lee throws this back to the writings 327 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: of Herotodas and Theophrastus, whose writings do seem to describe 328 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: something like cotton. Herotodas, writing in the fifth century BCE, 329 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: on a plant found in India, says quote and further, 330 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: there are trees which grow wild there, the fruit of 331 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: which is a wool exceeding in beauty and goodness that 332 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: of sheep. The natives make their clothes of this tree wool, right. 333 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: Okay, So this is a mysterious plant to Herotodus, because 334 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: he comes from you know, he comes from a culture 335 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: in which cotton is not normally known. So he says, 336 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: you know, I've read reports that something's going on in 337 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: India where they can grow sheep's wool out of fruits 338 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: on trees. I don't know how they do that, but 339 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: it's really good wool. Another quote from Herodotus. This is 340 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: in chapter forty seven of the same work. He tells 341 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: a story about a corselate that was sent as a 342 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: gift by King Almos the second of Egypt to Sparta, 343 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: and he says that it was quote ornamented with gold 344 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: and fleeces from the trees, and in Lee's explanation, this 345 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: probably means it was padded with cotton that had been 346 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: acquired from the cotton plant fleeces from the trees. Lee 347 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: also cites the ancient Greek writer Tesius that's usually spelled Ctesias. 348 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: Quote. 349 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: Tesius also, who was the contemporary of Herodotus and was 350 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 2: made prisoner and kept by the king of Persia as 351 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: his court physician for seventeen years, was acquainted with the 352 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: use of a kind of wol, the produce of trees 353 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: for spinning and weaving amongst the natives of India. For 354 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: he mentions in his Indica a fragment quoted by Photius 355 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: quote tree garments, and that he thus referred to clothing 356 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 2: made from these tree fleeces. We have testimony of Vero quote. 357 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: Tizia says that there are in India trees that bear wool, 358 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: and also one of Alexander the Great's military commanders named Niarcus, 359 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: apparently spoke with wonder about trees in India that somehow 360 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: bore wool like sheep, which was of a surpassing whiteness. 361 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: Theophrastus, on the other hand, shares the following about the 362 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: island of Tylos in the Persian Gulf. Quote, wool bearing 363 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,479 Speaker 1: trees which grow there abundantly have leaves like the vine, 364 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: but smaller. They bear no fruit, but the pod containing 365 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: the wool is about the size of an apple while 366 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: it is closed, and when it is ripe it opens. 367 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: The wool is then gathered from it and woven into 368 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: clothes of various qualities, some inferior but others of great value. 369 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: And Karuba says that the word Theophrastus uses for apple 370 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: melon is also used for sheep. 371 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: Hmmm. Oh, you can immediately see how that would perhaps 372 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: cause some confusion. 373 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: Yeah. 374 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: Now there's another thing Lee gets into where I feel 375 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: I need to quote from him directly for his comments 376 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: on our old friend Plenty the elder, whom he blames 377 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: for a literary blunder that introduces one of the main 378 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: components of the medieval version of the legend. So this 379 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: is Lee characterizing Plenty. He says, then comes Plenty, who, 380 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: incompetent and worthless as a naturalist, though admirable as a writer, 381 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: obscured this subject, as he did many others. In his 382 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: natural history. He mentions cotton in four different paragraphs, and 383 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: in every one of them inaccurate. He confuses cotton with 384 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: flax and the fabrics woven of it with linen, and 385 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: treats of silk as a downy substance scraped from the 386 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: leaves of trees. And in transcribing or translating the passage 387 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: from Theophrastus relating to the wool bearing trees, he distorts 388 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: the author's words and states that quote, these trees bear 389 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 2: gourds the size of a quince, which burst when ripe, 390 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: and display balls of wool out of which the inhabitants 391 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: make cloths like valuable linen. Plenty therefore seems to have 392 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: been the author of the gored portion of the story, 393 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 2: which afterwards obtained currency in Western Europe. Okay, so going 394 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: all the way back to John Mandevila, remember he's writing 395 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: about the Gowerdees, the gourds. That Lee makes a pretty 396 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: compelling case here that this is just a result of 397 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: Plenty the elder mistranslating the work of another ancient historian. 398 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: Wow. 399 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 2: So in all kinds of ancient Greek and Roman literature, 400 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: you have people who are not very familiar or not 401 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: at all familiar with the cotton plant or with tech 402 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 2: styles made from it. So you can imagine their confusion 403 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: if they say, visit India and see what's being done 404 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: with cotton there, or if they encounter a garment brought 405 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: from India, they would be like, huh, so, wait, there's 406 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: a sheep in this tree, or the tree is growing 407 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: wool somehow, Like it's kind of like trying to imagine 408 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: a tree growing meat or giving milk. 409 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, and kind of goes back to what we were 410 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: talking about in the last episode. If you're not aware 411 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: of the actual gulf between the development of mammals and plants, 412 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: you might encounter something like this and think, well, you know, 413 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: wolf from trees, Well, what else is possible? Yeah, but 414 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: I do really like this theory, and I think it 415 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: does match up with everything we know about about cotton 416 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: plants as well, because you know, briefly accounts of cotton 417 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: plants goes back. These accounts go back quite a way, 418 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: so at least in Neolithic sites and what is now 419 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: India and Pakistan five hundred BCE as a date that 420 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: is frequently given out. Evidence of cotton usage even dates 421 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: back a good five thousand years in meso America. But 422 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: it wasn't until the late medieval period that cotton became known, 423 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: not in Europe, and its exact origin wasn't understood at first, 424 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: other than it came from a plant. Here is something 425 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: like wool and it comes from a plant. 426 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 427 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel like this theory seems quite sensible. 428 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: You can imagine how these accounts would have drifted and 429 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: grown as they were related from individual to individual, from 430 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: book to book, from language to language, translation and mistranslation 431 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: in place, etc. 432 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Lee argues that the legend rises from embellishment of 433 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: stories originally based upon ambiguity or confusion in literary sources, 434 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 2: and this has two major factors. One is the misinterpretation 435 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 2: of ambiguous or figurative language, and the other is the 436 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: superficial visual similarity of two completely different objects. And so 437 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: the direct linguistic example Lee gives is that Okay, what 438 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: you originally have is reports by people like Herodotus and 439 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: others a plant that quote bore as its fruit fleeces 440 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: which surpassed those of lambs in beauty and excellence. And 441 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: this was soon paraphrased and garbled by other authors as 442 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: quote a plant bearing fruit within which was a little 443 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: lamb having a fleece of surpassing beauty and excellence. So 444 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: the fact that there is in India actually a tree 445 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 2: with pods that bear wool gets paraphrased, mistranslated, embellished into 446 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: all these other stories a plant that's got goreds, it's 447 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 2: got lambs in them, or perhaps it merged with the 448 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: pre existing weird stories about a ferocious beast who is 449 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: tied to the ground by a stem that attached to 450 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: the navel. Well, what if that beast was actually one 451 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: of these these lamb plants or these sheep plants, and 452 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: that's where the wool comes from. So, even though Lee 453 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 2: was writing in the eighteen eighties, I think this ideology 454 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: of the legend still holds up pretty well. It seems 455 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: totally plausible to me absolutely. 456 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: Now. Originally I was thinking about getting into related creatures 457 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: of myth and legend here, and I do, and I 458 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: think we're going to save exploration of other specimens for 459 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: later perhaps, but I do want to read just a 460 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: quick quote from Jorge Lewis Borges and his Book of 461 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: Imaginary Beings. He says we might recall another such case, 462 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: that of the man drake or Mandagora, which screams like 463 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: a man when it is pulled from the ground. There 464 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: is also in one of the circles of Hell, that 465 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: sad forest of suicides, from whose quote broken splints come 466 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: words and blood at once. And that tree dreamed by Chesterton, 467 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: which devoured the birds that nested in its branches, and 468 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: which put out feathers instead of leaves when springtime came. 469 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: That's a great book, by the way, the Book of 470 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: Imaginary Beings, and he chronicles several different beasts that were 471 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: dream by various writers that he was familiar with, which 472 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: makes sense. Borges was very interested in dreams as well 473 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: as creatures and mazes and daggers and so forth. But 474 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: I think we might be able to come back and 475 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: do something on the mandrake. I was doing some more 476 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: reading on that, and I was like, well, this too 477 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: may have legs and demand its own episode. Now, one 478 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: thing we sort of teased in the last episode that 479 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to get to as well, is the idea 480 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: of this, well, the vegetable lamb, the vegetable lamb of Tartari. 481 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: Will it ever become a reality? Now, on one level, 482 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: we have to say, yeah, no matter how mad sciencey 483 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: your mad science ideas are. I think the idea of, say, 484 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 1: genetically engineering a plant that grows a fully bodied sheep 485 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: is ridiculous. I mean again, we come back to that 486 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: gulf between these organisms. 487 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: Right, and also like, why would you do that growing 488 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: a fully formed lamb that had like a brain and 489 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 2: was grazing on the plants around it. Well, it's mad 490 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 2: science too, yeah, oh okay, okay, so mad's assuming you 491 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 2: just want to do it for the heck of it. 492 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: Even then, I'm skeptical that that'll ever happen. 493 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: Or alien mad scientists they just read plenty and they 494 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: think this is what's up. So we can set that aside, 495 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: I think. But you know, it is interesting though from 496 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: a modern perspective, we have to ponder the fact that, Okay, 497 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about this vegetable lamb and we are seeing 498 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: some amazing advancements in recent decades, in recent years concerning 499 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: flesh that feels very much at home in the imagined 500 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: gardens of tartary. For starters, there's of course the realm 501 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: of plant based meat alternatives. Now, the practice of using 502 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: plant products to simulate meat is of course nothing new 503 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: and can be found in various cultures. Because remember, while 504 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: modern cuisines are sometimes based on meat for every meal, 505 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: this is not the sort of thing that traditional societies 506 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: could necessarily depend on. Certainly, you can find some instances 507 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: of say Arctic cultures that depend quite heavily on meat, 508 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: but other times, like meat is something that is a 509 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: part of a diet that otherwise has a lot of 510 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: fruits and vegetables in it, and you're not going to 511 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: necessarily have that kill, have that meat that's going to 512 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: be a part of your diet day to day. 513 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, for a number of reasons, many of them are economic. 514 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So for starters, I guess we should point 515 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: out that various fruits and vegetables have long been prized 516 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: for their meat like textures, even if they're not being 517 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: overtly described as such. And I'm not going to get 518 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: into a lot of detail on these because it becomes 519 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: more complicated nailing down meat substitute definitions with foods that 520 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: are not themselves food products. For instance, if you cook 521 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: an eggplant or a jackfruit the right way, prepare it 522 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: the right way, you get some strong meat vibes. But 523 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we can really classify a culinary process 524 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: like that as something that can be defined as a 525 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: meat substitute. 526 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know how often some of these 527 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: substances that are considered meat substitutes in dishes today how 528 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: often they were originally thought of that way. Like there's 529 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: a lot of uses of say tofu in Chinese cuisine 530 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: that seemed to me to indicate that it's not being 531 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: treated as just like, well, here's an alternative to meat. 532 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: It's a food in its own right. It's just a 533 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: food like any other food that has its own qualities 534 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 2: that are prized, And I feel like I can appreciate 535 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: it that way. But I know a lot of times 536 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: Americans might think of tofu as like, Okay, this is 537 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: something you have instead of meat. 538 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: Right, And I think with the tofu example, you know, 539 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: when you're talking we're talking about tofu, we're talking about 540 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: coagulated soy milk, so you know it's soybean based and 541 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: it's thought to date back about two thousand years to China, 542 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: and so you have something that you know, even if 543 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: you're definitely classifying it as a meat substitute, it doesn't 544 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: mean that it's going to be in a dish that's 545 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: devoid of meat. You look at a lot of Chinese 546 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: traditional Chinese dishes, and they have a lot of ingredients 547 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: and sometimes there may be a little bit of meat 548 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: in there. If you had meat, you might throw it 549 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: in just because it's going to add to the flavor 550 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,959 Speaker 1: and all, but it's not. You know, it's not going 551 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: to be a just a big old, necessarily a big 552 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: old chunk of meat out there on the plate. We 553 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: get into this a bit in our Invention episode on 554 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: chopsticks and why chopsticks were so well utilized at least 555 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: for various Chinese cuisines within a large portion of Chinese history. 556 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: I think I've gone on record on the show before 557 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: about my love of Mapo tofu. It's one of my 558 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: favorite dishes. But yeah, most of the time there's going 559 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 2: to be some kind of meat in it. So if 560 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 2: you're like a vegetarian, be checked beforehand. 561 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: Tofu, of course, can be super delicious. I just had 562 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: some last night. It was it had been marinated, and 563 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: then it had also been battered, and then I it 564 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: was fried up. It was super good, haded on buns 565 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: like a burger. Now some other of the main meat 566 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: substitutes out there. We of course have satan, and that 567 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: is the gluten based meat alternative that dates back probably 568 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: to sixth century China. We have tempe. This is a 569 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: fermented soybean cake and while the details of its origin 570 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: seemed to be subject to debate, it seems to have 571 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: originated in Indonesia, but the time period varies from centuries 572 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: ago to thousands of years ago, and I'm not sure 573 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: exactly what the predominant theory is there in Chinese traditions. 574 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: We also have mocked duck. This is a fake duck meat. 575 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: That's another gluten based product that I believe dates back 576 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: to medieval China. Have you had mock duck before, Joe, 577 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: I have not. It can be quite good. I've had 578 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: it before where I was like, this is great, I 579 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: look forward to having more of it. And I've had 580 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: it before too where I'm like, I'm not so certain 581 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: about this mock duck, but I have had it before 582 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: where it's really good. Yeah, you can frequently purchase it. 583 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: I've never prepared anything with it myself, but you can 584 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: get it like in cans, So suffice to say, yes, 585 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: you can. You know, we've long known that you can 586 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: take plants and things derived from plants, and you can 587 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: make things that scratch your itch for actually consuming meat. 588 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: But of course today we have a number of more 589 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: technologically advanced examples. You know, we have artificial plant based meat, 590 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: such as you know, Beyond Meat. It's a company that 591 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: makes beef, pork, and poultry substitutes. You have Impossible Meat 592 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: that I think is mostly known for the Impossible burger. 593 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: Beyond Meat, I've read is based on pea protein, rice protein, 594 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: mung bean protein, and various other plant products, including red 595 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: beet juice, which is interesting to give it that kind 596 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: of bloody consistency. 597 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, simulate the myoglobin, yeah. 598 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: And then Impossible Meat is based on the the heme 599 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: heme molecule, a precursor to hemoglobin, and processing various plant 600 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: ingredients to replicate it. But then there's this, and those 601 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: products are fine. I've greatly enjoyed some of these plant 602 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: based meat alternatives, especially of late. But then there's this 603 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: realm beyond the realm of cultivated or cultured or cell 604 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: based meats, in which actual animal cells are grown in 605 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: a lab setting, right. 606 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: So this would be talking about actually, like the cells 607 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 2: themselves are animal muscle cells, but they're not growing in 608 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: an animal's body. They're just growing on some other substrate 609 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: right now. 610 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: To be clear, they're not growing on plants. I'm suggesting that, 611 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: but it's not merely a fact of it resembling meat 612 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: or tasting like meat. It is meat, it is, but 613 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: it is meat that is grown in like a lab setting, 614 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: as opposed to growing as part of an organism in 615 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: a domestic or wild scenario. 616 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: I've been reading about this in bits and pieces from 617 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 2: years and always very interested in it, and I hadn't 618 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 2: checked in in a while to see what the recent 619 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: progress on this kind of stuff is. 620 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: Well, there seems to be a lot of movement, and 621 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of funding that has gone into it. 622 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: I think some of the big questions are going to 623 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, how does this actually roll out as 624 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: a commercial product that you know, at what point do 625 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 1: we reach this place in its development? Where it's truly 626 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: economically feasible and so forth. These are concerns with any 627 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: kind of innovation, right. We've talked about that before on invention, 628 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: Like it's one thing to create the thing, but then 629 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: how does it become affordable and desired, etc. Yeah, but 630 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: I was reading about this a little bit. I was 631 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: curious what the latest was. And for instance, there's a 632 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: company in Australia called Vow Foods. I was reading about 633 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: them on the Conversation in an article by Catherine Wynne 634 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: and Michelle Colegrave. And they're already growing pork, chicken, kangaroo, 635 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: alpaca and water buffalo. Now none of this is commercially 636 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: available yet, but it gives you a taste of what's possible. 637 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: I've also read about lion meat being produced in such 638 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: a manner by a different company, because I guess the 639 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: thing is, it's all on the table if the meat 640 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: is sourced from a lab rather than a farm or 641 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: the wild. 642 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean you don't even normally think about 643 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: eating like land carnivore meat. 644 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: No, And I can't. I can't imagine i'd want to, 645 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: but I could see I can see the strategy here, 646 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: Like you want to get people interested in the novel 647 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: aspect of it, you know, someone who might not otherwise, 648 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: like why would I Why would I go out and 649 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: have a lab grown hamburger when I can have a 650 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: hamburger from the wild. But if you offer them a 651 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: lion burger, like what's their alternative, They're gonna go out 652 00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: and they're going to kill their own lion. They're gonna 653 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: get lion meat on the black market. Interesting, and it 654 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: does seem like there are a number of different Australian 655 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: companies that are involved in this too. So so companies 656 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: like this are using some of the same biomanufacturing technologies 657 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: that have been used in the pharmaceutical industry for years, 658 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: and again they've garnered a lot of investment, especially in 659 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: recent years. And some of the outlying questions, you know, 660 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: come down to just how economically feasible does this become? 661 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: Does it become desirable by the population at large in 662 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: the same way that plant based meats seem to be becoming. 663 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 2: So how fast can you can you grow like large 664 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 2: masses of meat from these starting cell cultures? 665 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. As for the taste, I have to stress 666 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: I have not tried any of these myself, I have 667 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: not had the opportunity to, but accounts I've read by 668 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: such such as documentary and Liz Marshall, who did a 669 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: documentary titled Meat the Future with meat spelled like meat. 670 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: You know, she says that it is meat and it 671 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: tastes like meat, so it's not particularly surprising. I've seen 672 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: some other people weighing in where like, Okay, maybe you 673 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 1: can get into questions of texture, but for the most part, 674 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: like it's meat, it tastes like meat. 675 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 2: One of the things I read about this would have 676 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 2: been many years ago now, but like some early prototypes 677 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: of this were people trying to make a lab grown 678 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 2: burger and one of the main comments was that like 679 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 2: in many ways it tasted right, but it didn't have 680 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 2: the fat content wasn't quite right yet. Though, I think 681 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing that seems like that'd be 682 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 2: pretty easy to get around. 683 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, now as far as actual lamb and cheap meat goes, 684 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 1: because we are talking about the vegetable lamb of CARTERI. 685 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: After all, you know, lamb is a mammal meat that 686 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: many fine quite delicious, and I have to say back 687 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: when I ate mammal meat, I was really partial to 688 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: a particular lamb tagine stew. So definitely it can be 689 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: super delicious, and it's an animal that has a fairly 690 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: large carbon footprint. So if you could find a way 691 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: to produce that meat without you know, having to have 692 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: the end of the same environmental impact, then that would 693 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: that would make a lot of sense. Yeah, And so 694 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 1: at first I was thinking, I was looking around and 695 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: I wasn't finding anything, and I was like, Okay, maybe 696 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: the age of the vegetable lamb of tartari coming more 697 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: to fruition is We're just not there yet. But as 698 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: reported by Jennifer Marston on The Spoon, that's thespoon dot Tech, 699 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: which is like a really cool looking like news blog 700 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: about food technologies. According to Marston here in twenty twenty one, 701 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: the Australian cultivated meat company Magic Valley dubbed itself quote 702 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: the world's first cultured lamb company. So they're saying this 703 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: is it. We're going to be the ones that grow 704 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: the sheep. She also writes that while lamb consumption in 705 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: the United States has been down in recent there's still 706 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: a big market for it in many countries, so it 707 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: makes sense for a company like this to to, you know, 708 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: to stake their claim to the lab grown lamb meat 709 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: of the future. Though again I have not actually tried 710 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: any of these cultured or cultivated meats, but I would 711 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: love to have the opportunity to do so. I find 712 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: this research very exciting. I think there's still a lot 713 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: of questions about like where where we'll ultimately get to 714 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: with these technologies, But I mean there's a lot of 715 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: a lot of movement behind them, so I'm excited to 716 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: see where it goes. 717 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 2: I agree it is very exciting. Oh one one kind 718 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 2: of wants to be the John Mandeville of the future 719 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 2: that says, I ate one of the lambs and it 720 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 2: was delicious, except this lamb was grown in a lab 721 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 2: instead of inside a gourd. 722 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: Now, one thing I wonder about. Okay, so we see 723 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: that they're already thinking about what are all the exotic 724 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: animals of the natural world that people might wish to 725 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: eat that they normally wouldn't have access to. Will we 726 00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: go a step beyond Will we see chimeras emerge, be 727 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: able to buy, say, manticore meat? 728 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 2: Will you be able to eat dinosaur meat? 729 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: Oh? 730 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess you already do. If you eat chicken. 731 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: But it's true people are having their their Dino nuggies 732 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: regularly already. But but yeah, what else is possible Willie 733 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: Mammoth steak? 734 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 2: Oh wow, so somehow I imagine that'd be quite gamy. Anyway, 735 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:25,479 Speaker 2: Should we wrap up there? 736 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's go ahead and call it for this episode. 737 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's there's a lot we could continue to discuss, 738 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: just in like the related realm of things like the 739 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: Man Drake. But then also we could we could easily 740 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: go back to our previous discussion about plant intelligence, plant 741 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: and memory plant communication and explore this topic more so. 742 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'd love to hear from everyone out there. 743 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: Would you like to hear more on this matter or 744 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: related matters? Is there a particular direction you would like 745 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: to see us go in? Just ride in and let 746 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 1: us know. In the meantime, you can listen to other 747 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind in the Stuff 748 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed, we have our core 749 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: episodes there on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Listener mail on Mondays, 750 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact on Wednesday, and 751 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: on Friday we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time 752 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: to set aside most important matters and just focus on 753 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: a weird film. 754 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 755 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 756 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 757 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 758 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,720 Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 759 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com. 760 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 761 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 762 00:42:51,680 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.