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Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholtz on Boomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have a special guest.

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Speaker 1: His name is Rex sore Gats, and I have to

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Speaker 1: just share a little background. I began my blog in

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Speaker 1: the late nineties on Yahoo GeoCities, a now defunct property

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Speaker 1: of Yahoo, which in and of itself is who knows

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Speaker 1: what the hell is happening with that? And early in

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Speaker 1: my blogging career, I came across a a blog called

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Speaker 1: fim Oculus, and I always found it filled with unique

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Speaker 1: and interesting tidbits. There were a run of things I

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Speaker 1: was looking at back then, uh Copkey fam oculus, Um,

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Speaker 1: just a handful of colossal uh that Boing boying. There

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Speaker 1: was just a run of of differences that we're just

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Speaker 1: collecting interesting, eclectic, unusual things back when the Internet was

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Speaker 1: small enough that one person or a small group of

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Speaker 1: people could do that and find some really really fascinating things. Um.

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Speaker 1: As it turns out, Rex Uh not only was a blogger,

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Speaker 1: but he was a television producer, digital media consultants UM,

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Speaker 1: and a writer. And I've followed his career over the

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Speaker 1: years and have always enjoyed his work. We talked about

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Speaker 1: the genesis of the book The Encyclopedia of Misinformation, which

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Speaker 1: is really quite fascinating. And if you are at all

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Speaker 1: interested in web history, in in how and why memes

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Speaker 1: catch on on the Internet, whether they're true or false,

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Speaker 1: how they spread, I think you will find this to

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Speaker 1: be a fascinating conversation. So, with no further ado, my

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Speaker 1: interview of Rex Sorgats. My special guest today is Rex Sorgats.

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Speaker 1: He is somebody I have been reading for several centuries now.

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Speaker 1: He is the author of the Encyclopedia of Misinformation. See

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Speaker 1: what I did there, slipped a little misinformation and he

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Speaker 1: has quite uh quite a bio. In addition to being

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Speaker 1: a product designer a creative technologist, he is the founder

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Speaker 1: of the New York media consultancy kind of sort of media,

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Speaker 1: and he is the author of a book which may

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Speaker 1: have the longest subtitle I've ever seen. The book is

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Speaker 1: The Encyclopedia of Misinformation, A compendion of imitation, spoof's, delusion, simulations, counterfeits, impostors, illusions, confabulations, skullduggery, fraud, pseudoscience, propaganda, hoaxes,

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Speaker 1: flim flam pranks, hornswoggle, conspiracy, and miscellaneous fakery. Rex or Ghats,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Bloomberg. It is wonderful to be here. So

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Speaker 1: I have to start with your bio, which begins Rex

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Speaker 1: sor Ghats is a professional orson Wales impersonator and a

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Speaker 1: third generation like in Thrope, who is responsible refore rebranding

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Speaker 1: contrails as chem trails. Obviously none of that is true.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your your background. I wrote that bio

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Speaker 1: for my It's on my Amazon page because I started,

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Speaker 1: I started writing a traditional bio, and then I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is a book about misinformation, I should really just

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Speaker 1: make a spoof of the whole idea. And I have

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Speaker 1: to point out that, having read you over the years,

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Speaker 1: first that fimaculus, then it wired. You're very much into

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Speaker 1: um recursive fractals and regressions where there is an element

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Speaker 1: of a meta reflection on the underlying subject. For example,

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Speaker 1: you many people do your year end lists. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: work for you. You You do a list of lists, and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that later. But the your self description

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Speaker 1: as a hoax is perfectly consistent with not just the book,

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Speaker 1: but your own brand of recursive um writing. Fair fair statement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure, Um there's a There's even an element in

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Speaker 1: the book where I do I return to this trope

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Speaker 1: a lot where I stayed a fact and then throw

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Speaker 1: a footnote in there and then and then undermine the

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Speaker 1: fact itself. Like I have this tendency to kind of

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Speaker 1: not my writing. I don't I don't trust writing that

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Speaker 1: asserts itself in some sort of like overly um unbiased

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Speaker 1: intellectual way that just so firm and has no sense

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Speaker 1: of doubt about itself. So I think that I'm always

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Speaker 1: I think everything I write is expressing um, is making

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Speaker 1: a point, but it is like willing to say I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure about this. And I think that that's

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Speaker 1: that we live in a media climate where that's I

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Speaker 1: think an especially important trait, the certitude amongst people who

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Speaker 1: have no basis for certitude seems to be the model.

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Speaker 1: Are on the twenty four hour news channels, regardless of

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Speaker 1: political leaning. Yeah, I mean, I I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I the last time I saw somebody on cable news

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Speaker 1: and will include all networks there say get asked a

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Speaker 1: question and say I don't know. You know, that just

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Speaker 1: never happens, and I I always start with I don't

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Speaker 1: know or I am not sure. Let me try to

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Speaker 1: work this problem out. I've got a few ideas. Here

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Speaker 1: are different opposing ways to think about it, and I

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Speaker 1: think that that that whole notion has really disappeared from

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Speaker 1: media climate. To be honest, it gets said very rarely,

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Speaker 1: and it's really hilarious to watch the anchor just suddenly.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a fast driving car that suddenly hits

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Speaker 1: a patch of oil. It's been all over the place,

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Speaker 1: It's all over the ice. Date don't know how to

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Speaker 1: deal with someone who says, oh, that's outside of my expertise.

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Speaker 1: I can I really have nothing to add on that.

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Speaker 1: Their heads explode, yes, and writing a book about misinformation,

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Speaker 1: which is not exactly a topic that, like, I had

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Speaker 1: known a ton about the at least the social science

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Speaker 1: part of it. I know the cultural part about it,

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Speaker 1: like the part the kind of P. T. Barnumsesque qualities

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Speaker 1: of our society and culture. But I had to do

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Speaker 1: an immense amount of research into um. All of the

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Speaker 1: research is going on right now around oh, fake news

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Speaker 1: and what trusting the media and all of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: So that's that was all brand new to me. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about fake news, and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about how the media has kind of painted itself

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Speaker 1: into this corner. Let's let's stay with your background a

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Speaker 1: little bit. You you do a lot of different things.

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Speaker 1: You're a designer, and you were part of a team

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Speaker 1: that won the Pulitzer Prize. Assuming that that's not misinformation,

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Speaker 1: tell us tell us about that. Uh, this is a

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Speaker 1: story from a long time ago. Um, he's twenty one

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Speaker 1: years ago, I think now. Yeah, So in nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: I was living in North Dakota, Grand Folks, North Dakota,

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Speaker 1: and this little town of fifty thousand people suffered the

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Speaker 1: greatest um disaster of the twentieth century for real American city. Well,

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Speaker 1: and if you quantified in the sense of people evacuated,

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Speaker 1: the entire town had to be a back of the

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Speaker 1: town out and it was a flood, and Um Clinton

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Speaker 1: was still president and he actually came to town and

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Speaker 1: cried on national television. It was like it was kind

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Speaker 1: of the Katrina before its time. Not as severe a Katrina, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but it was so all fifty thousand people are out.

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Speaker 1: Were there any fatalities or there's interestingly zero zero fatalities.

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Speaker 1: But the reason it became in such a strange national

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Speaker 1: story is that in the middle of this flood, in

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Speaker 1: which like six ft of water in downtown, it's like underwater.

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Speaker 1: In the middle of this flood, a fire starts and

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Speaker 1: it seems like the ultimate sort of reckoning of hell. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and it creates this paradox where there's all of this water,

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Speaker 1: but there's a fire, and the fire can't be put

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Speaker 1: out because the fire hydrants are on the water. And

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Speaker 1: so there there are pictures out there a fireman kind

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Speaker 1: of diving into the water to try to connect their

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Speaker 1: hoses to the fire hydrants and then they finally get

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Speaker 1: them connected. In there, there's no water pressure and so

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Speaker 1: none of it works. And uh. And I the reason

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Speaker 1: I UM kind of became a notable person around the

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Speaker 1: event was I was a person who decided not to

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Speaker 1: leave and I was staying in my apartment because I

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Speaker 1: lived next door to the Grand Forks Herald, the newspaper

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Speaker 1: in Grand Forks, which back then was owned by night Ridder.

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Speaker 1: There's a company that is no longer around UM, and

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Speaker 1: it was working on the newspaper and trying to still

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Speaker 1: get it out. We managed to eventually that newspaper burned down.

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Speaker 1: UM and I had to be rescued from my apartment

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Speaker 1: in the middle all this flood fire and we want

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Speaker 1: to pulletzerprise that. I hope you took lots of photographs

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Speaker 1: from the vantage point that was pre iPhone or any

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Speaker 1: kind of thing like that, and so none. I have

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Speaker 1: zero photos. I've actually I just went back last summer

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Speaker 1: or this this a few weeks ago, and uh, the

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Speaker 1: town has recovered. There's there are no walls all over

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Speaker 1: protecting it from the river coming though. Uh. And there's

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Speaker 1: pictures all over town, um, commemorating the event. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: it was. It was a fascinating thing, and it was

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Speaker 1: kind of in a weird This is weird to say,

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Speaker 1: but I lost everything I ever owned. But it was

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Speaker 1: sort of lucky because, um, you know, we won the pulletzer.

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Speaker 1: I became known for it. Um, I was the internet

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Speaker 1: guy in an arrow, which there, Yeah it was. I

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Speaker 1: was the web master, which was a very valuable title

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Speaker 1: back then. And uh, it allowed me to get out.

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Speaker 1: Really I didn't really have many other It was hard

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Speaker 1: to foresee how I was going to get out of

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Speaker 1: North Dakota. And this was like a quick Oh I

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Speaker 1: got I got talent, now d git to exodus. I

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Speaker 1: get it. Let's talk about this book, because I find

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Speaker 1: it to be fascinating. That's why I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: you on the show to go over this. Hey, we're

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Speaker 1: in an era of alternative facts, so given that, why

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Speaker 1: do we need an encyclopedia of misinformation? Yeah? I thought

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a good idea to try to

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Speaker 1: compile all of the stuff out there that is not

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Speaker 1: just misleading information, but it's about the theories behind it

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Speaker 1: and how it evolves and where it comes from. And

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Speaker 1: that's really what the book is. Like, I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: people see the title, I think, oh, this is gonna

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Speaker 1: be a list of hoaxes, or you know, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be like, here's a bunch of conspiracies, and there's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of that, But really it's about the theory. Um,

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Speaker 1: here's a big scary word, the epistemology of of conspiracies,

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Speaker 1: hoaxes and these and media And ultimately, I think I

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Speaker 1: think of it as a book about trust, like who

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Speaker 1: what's sources? Who what sources of do you trust today?

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Speaker 1: And um, I don't say this out right, but I

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Speaker 1: think it becomes implicitly clear that that's eroting, like our

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Speaker 1: institutions are eroting and our faith in in UH knowledge

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Speaker 1: bases is going and and I try to deal with

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Speaker 1: out in a playful way. I would point out that

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Speaker 1: the erosion of trust in institutions is a feature and

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Speaker 1: not a bug, because if the population doesn't trust the institutions,

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Speaker 1: they're more likely to trust the grifters and con men

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Speaker 1: who were trying to get over fair fair statement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's fascinating. I think that one of the I didn't

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Speaker 1: talk about this in the book, but it's I'm going

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Speaker 1: to write about this at some point. I'm fascinated by

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Speaker 1: the evolution of media literacy because I feel like I

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Speaker 1: grew up in a time when people were told always

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Speaker 1: distrust what you're the information you're given in and root

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Speaker 1: out its source, and um, look look where it came from.

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Speaker 1: And you it was like this idea that information should

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Speaker 1: be immediately distrusted. And I think that sort of made

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Speaker 1: sense in an era of kind of monolithic information and

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Speaker 1: and kind of a state where we we built UH

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Speaker 1: knowledge bases that no one wanted to contradict. And now

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Speaker 1: I believe that idea of constantly questioning has become so

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Speaker 1: rampant and spread wildly on the Internet, particularly through places

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Speaker 1: like Reddit that now we're left in this place where

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Speaker 1: we don't trust anything, and like like there are people

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Speaker 1: out there who don't believe that Charlemagne existed, you know,

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Speaker 1: like all the parts of history are lies these days.

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Speaker 1: The flat earth thing is probably the best example. Like

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Speaker 1: I didn't know how to write about that. That's a

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Speaker 1: good example something I don't know how to write about

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Speaker 1: in the book because what am I gonna do. Am

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Speaker 1: I gonna like debunk the flat earthers? That just sounds boring.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna or I'm gonna make fun of them, or

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Speaker 1: what what am I gonna do with it? And so

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Speaker 1: what I chose to do with that entry is I thought, well, uh,

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Speaker 1: what's interesting about this is that it's emerging right now.

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Speaker 1: But really it's emerging because people have there's this idea

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Speaker 1: out there that historically they are all these times in

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Speaker 1: history where people thought the Earth was flat. And I

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Speaker 1: went back and looked at this turns out not to

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Speaker 1: be the kid turns out not to be true at all.

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Speaker 1: Like you have to go back way back, like to

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Speaker 1: Homer to find out people who actually leave their earth

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Speaker 1: was flat. There was no one during Columbus's time that

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Speaker 1: was flat. Even the Greeks understood the earth was the

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Speaker 1: Aristotle play dont knew it was around, Like, uh, I

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Speaker 1: mean even church figures. I mean the people who persecuted

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Speaker 1: Galileo believe the Earth is round. They just didn't believe

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Speaker 1: that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

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Speaker 1: Like and Dante thought the Earth was round because if

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Speaker 1: you drill the hole into the earth and you got

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Speaker 1: to the inferno, you could come out the other side,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so this idea was like a it

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Speaker 1: evolved because in the nineteenth century someone came up with

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Speaker 1: the idea that I can use this as a cudgel too,

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Speaker 1: like describe a certain kind of part of society that

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Speaker 1: thinks that there's they're so stupid they think the Earth

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Speaker 1: is flat. And it was kind of an accident of

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Speaker 1: intellectualism that this evolved. And um, sorry, like that that

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Speaker 1: was the difficulty of this book is like, how do

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Speaker 1: I write about these things that are kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: But I don't really want to be a book of

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Speaker 1: debunking because that's so that raises the next question, how

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Speaker 1: new is fake news? Yeah, when you when you write

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Speaker 1: a book like this, you end up becoming a little

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Speaker 1: bit weary with history, especially like there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century stuff in here. Um, and that was just

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Speaker 1: an era of peer chicanery and uh and manipulation, Um,

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Speaker 1: the gold in age of grifters. Yeah, it truly was.

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Speaker 1: And Uh, if you look at someone like P. T.

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Speaker 1: Barnum um, or just like all of the people spreading

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Speaker 1: medical hoaxes at the time, you really kind of go,

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Speaker 1: maybe today isn't that bad, Maybe the Internet isn't that bad.

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Speaker 1: And so I can't I can't draw exact distinctions. I

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Speaker 1: would say that, um, something is coming up right now

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Speaker 1: on the Internet that feels like the the change that

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Speaker 1: started to happen in the early nineteenth century where um

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Speaker 1: people found ways to game the system. And so I

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Speaker 1: feel like we're kind of returning to an era right now.

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Speaker 1: So so let's talk about the shifting Overton window. Explain

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Speaker 1: for listeners exactly what that is. Uh. The Overton window

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating little idea UM developed by a researcher

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Speaker 1: who he just kind of came up with the term.

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Speaker 1: And it's for essentially, it's what are the topics that

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Speaker 1: we allow into public discourse, what is safe for us

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Speaker 1: to discuss and like in public discourse, I mean kind

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Speaker 1: of the media, I guess, i'd say, but but general

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Speaker 1: debate within a society, Yes, that's acceptable. Yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: if you brought it up at a party, no one

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Speaker 1: would like, I think you're crazy or whatever. And it

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating thing to watch, right, Like, things definitely

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Speaker 1: move in and out of the over overtoned window. Um.

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Speaker 1: And just for a little context, the the term comes

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Speaker 1: from watching. I believe the phrase the description used was

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Speaker 1: watching a parade through window and if you shift your position,

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Speaker 1: you're seeing a different part of the parade from a

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Speaker 1: different angle. Is that yes, So so the overtoned window

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Speaker 1: refers to how, at different times and different angles we

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Speaker 1: are tolerating or discussing different topics. Is that Is that

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Speaker 1: the metaphor? Yeah? And you could just like name something like, um,

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Speaker 1: legalized marijuana, Like that's not something that was like readily

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Speaker 1: discussed maybe ten years ago for sure, not twenty five

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Speaker 1: years ago. So there was a contingent of the population

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Speaker 1: who believed in it, but it wasn't a mainstream idea

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Speaker 1: or even just gave marriage like was not a real

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Speaker 1: mainstream I d until accelerated very quickly. Um. In recent years,

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Speaker 1: but the term more now is used to apply to

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Speaker 1: UH mostly about how the right, the far right, the right,

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Speaker 1: whatever we want to call that group UM has entered,

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Speaker 1: has has pushed into um public consciousness ideas that otherwise

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Speaker 1: recently would have been considered outsider um extreme views on immigration,

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Speaker 1: for instance, UM. I mean, just open up Reddit now,

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Speaker 1: go to the Donald un reddit and you'll just see

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Speaker 1: like this rampant conversation about things that we obviously just

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Speaker 1: sort of thought we're outside of discourse and now are

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Speaker 1: allowed in and we have to take seriously. And so

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Speaker 1: there's a kind of a good quality to it, right,

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Speaker 1: because like our mind should always be open minded to

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Speaker 1: any kind of new ideas. At the same time, it's

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Speaker 1: like we get we're we're starting to take things seriously

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Speaker 1: that otherwise we're like, oh, that's for the freaks and

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Speaker 1: the outsiders, and now we have to deal with debunking.

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Speaker 1: Like flat earth is a good example, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: we like now we have to we have to spend

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Speaker 1: time on that topic. You mentioned read it twice, But

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Speaker 1: you're not referring to things like Twitter or Facebook. Are

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Speaker 1: they quantitatively or qualitatively different than the various subreddits that

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Speaker 1: really go so far into the weeds. I mean I

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Speaker 1: sometimes get asked like which is the most dangerous one

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Speaker 1: really kind of juggle around which social network and my

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Speaker 1: most most troubled by UM read it is where the

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Speaker 1: audience is smaller, still substantial, but smaller. But it's really

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Speaker 1: where ideas get root. And you might consider it the

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Speaker 1: base of the of fringe ideas. People who used to

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Speaker 1: be lone wolves in their town find life minded individuals

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Speaker 1: who are similarly insane and basically allows them to reinforce

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Speaker 1: their not whatever the mania of the moment happens to be,

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Speaker 1: They find similar people and then they build propaganda around it.

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Speaker 1: They start memes, they make pictures, They kind of they

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Speaker 1: become self edified by having on the people to talk

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Speaker 1: through the ideas of the thing to go back to

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Speaker 1: flat earth, like read it on flat Earth is fastening

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Speaker 1: because people will come in and kind of contradict things

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Speaker 1: and they'll have to like go, oh, I know how

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Speaker 1: to evolve this theory further. So it's like a breeding

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Speaker 1: ground for like furthering these these thoughts UM and then

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Speaker 1: eventually what happens is that stuff bubbles up to Facebook,

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Speaker 1: and that's when it goes mainstream and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, your Grandma's like being presented with images of

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Speaker 1: Peppie the Frog, And I think within that group, it's

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Speaker 1: sort of self legitimizes what should really be a fringe

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Speaker 1: set of ideas. Yeah, I don't it really should be

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Speaker 1: and it's depth. The Internet is definitely causing this weird

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Speaker 1: fracturing thing right now where I I don't I feel

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Speaker 1: like are not We used to have like a set

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Speaker 1: of facts that we based everybody's understanding. Yeah, and now

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Speaker 1: that thing is fracturing all over the place, and um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not optimistic about how that turns out. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be a little selfish year and I'm gonna say optimistically,

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Speaker 1: if you're a high functioning idiot, if you believe things

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Speaker 1: that are patently demonstrable untrue, we're just seeing the impact

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Speaker 1: of that in things like elections, what have you. But

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Speaker 1: over the course of our lifetime, when you believe in

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Speaker 1: things that are apartently untrue and then you go out

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Speaker 1: into the world, there will eventually be negative consequences, whether

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Speaker 1: that's um personally, politically, professionally, economically. But if you believe

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Speaker 1: the world is flat, or if you believe you can

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Speaker 1: walk through that wall, we'll act on it, and bad

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Speaker 1: stuff is going to happen. So I'm hoping that eventually

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Speaker 1: Darwin's Revenge sort of filters this out. You're trusting, like

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Speaker 1: the socialization process to to adjust these people, or or mortality,

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Speaker 1: one of the those are Those are the two I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm rooting for. And I think that there's a case

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Speaker 1: to be made that socialization eventually wins that if these people,

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Speaker 1: like a call it a different group, that kind of

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Speaker 1: men's rights activists on on Reddit, if eventually those nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old dudes gotta go find jobs, and is that

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Speaker 1: all they are? Nineteen year old dudes, well, their sound spacemen.

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Speaker 1: There's unfortunately some forty five year old dudes out there too,

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Speaker 1: but it's a lot of it's a lot of young

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Speaker 1: men disenchanted with their either cultural or economic situation, and

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Speaker 1: eventually they're going to come to the conclusion that, um, actually,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's better for me economically not to have these

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Speaker 1: really like horrible views about half of the globe, and

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Speaker 1: that I need to adapt just to to like survive

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Speaker 1: in the society because my views are going to be

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Speaker 1: considered out true. If I don't. I hope that's true.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, at some point, do these people like

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Speaker 1: find like minded people at work, you know, Well, they

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Speaker 1: certainly have found them on the internet. And what we

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Speaker 1: noticed with with some of the neo Nazi marches and

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Speaker 1: other stuff, people have been identifying those folks and they've

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Speaker 1: been getting fired. It turns out that being a Nazi

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Speaker 1: and then being public about it is not a great

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Speaker 1: career move. Yeah, and I think that there is a

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Speaker 1: corrective quality out there when those things happen. It does

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Speaker 1: make me go, oh wait, maybe maybe I shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: in such a panic about this. Maybe we actually are

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Speaker 1: more we have we have stronger belief systems that are

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Speaker 1: that are being more corrective to these these kind of ideas,

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Speaker 1: and that it's just like a weird spurt in time,

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Speaker 1: and that this always happens every once in a while

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Speaker 1: and it's a messy transition until we sort of get

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Speaker 1: to whatever's on the other side. Yeah. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: like this goes back to the very first thing I said,

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Speaker 1: is like people seldom say I don't know, Um, there's

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Speaker 1: a case where I don't know, really, I really don't

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Speaker 1: know if I should be panicking about this moment time

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Speaker 1: in history, or if it's kind of a rhyming thing

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Speaker 1: that happens every once in a while and on any

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Speaker 1: given day, I could change my view in this that

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Speaker 1: some days I just feel like, oh, we've lost it.

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Speaker 1: We like no one, There is no truth, Every world

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Speaker 1: is asunder, no one trusts anyone. If only there was

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Speaker 1: an encyclopedia of misinformation that could help us through these

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Speaker 1: challenging times. That's that's a good selling point for the book.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Let's talk a little bit about your early

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Speaker 1: days as what you've described as a proto blogger, and

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Speaker 1: I first came to know you a long time ago

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Speaker 1: as the author of Vermaculous, A Thing that eats itself.

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Speaker 1: Explain Explain what Faaculus is and was, and why you

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Speaker 1: decided to launch it. Uh, it's really easy to say

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Speaker 1: that it was a blog before blogs. There was a

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Speaker 1: right right before I guess the year two thousand. They're

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Speaker 1: a handful of people who were making personal weblogs, which

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Speaker 1: was the term at the time. Um, there's probably about

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Speaker 1: a hundred people who were either writing um short entry

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Speaker 1: about things that had happened in their life, a little

408
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Speaker 1: more like a diary, or there were blogs that were

409
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Speaker 1: just linking to stuff, and I was in the ladder category.

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Speaker 1: I was fascinated by this emerging culture online that it

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Speaker 1: was coming about. Um, you know, this is long before

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Speaker 1: long long before Facebook, but even before read It and

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Speaker 1: and things like that. So but we there was a

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Speaker 1: community of a hundred a couple of hundred people who were, um,

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Speaker 1: just find on the internet all day and finding stuff

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Speaker 1: and wanting to share it with other people and then

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Speaker 1: had comments below. And who knew that that would actually

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Speaker 1: become what the Internet is today, which is effectively, here's

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Speaker 1: a link and here's a bunch of comments below. But

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Speaker 1: I think that's what blogging started off as, is like

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Speaker 1: there's something that's interesting and it could be an article,

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Speaker 1: it could be a painting, it could be whatever, and

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Speaker 1: people would talk below it. And that was there was

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Speaker 1: a discussion that happened. So let's talk about the list

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Speaker 1: of lists. So and again I I referenced earlier, you

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Speaker 1: have this sort of recursive meta, which makes sense for

427
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: something that eats itself, something that consumes itself as a

428
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: a source of sustenance. So everybody does these end of

429
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: year lists. These are the best books, these are the

430
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: best movies, here's the best whatever, and you were so

431
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: tickled by it you started a thing. And I want

432
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: to say it really began right after Thanksgiving each year

433
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: more or less the list of lists when one list

434
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: ruled them all. Yes, it was. When I started, it

435
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: was relatively easily. Basically I had a Google search alert

436
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: for best of year or best of two thousand six

437
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: or whatever, and uh. And there was also a submission

438
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: from the sites of people could send me stuff or

439
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: just I looked around a lot and all it is

440
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: accumulate them, list them. And I didn't even annotate them.

441
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: I just said, here's the list, put in the category

442
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: and uh. And then I dousic, film, books, sport, whatever

443
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: it was. And then it somehow took off. But and

444
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: I started it, there was probably it was easy to do.

445
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: When I started it, it was probably two hundred lists.

446
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: Like uh, it's funny now like now there's easily two

447
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: hundred lists that are best cars over the year, you

448
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Now would be thousands of lists. Well,

449
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: there's also there's all these I don't want to say

450
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: scam because they're not just outright scams, but through all

451
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: these affiliate marketing sites where it's like dishwasher reviews dot

452
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: com or I'm just making that up, but it's these

453
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: really narrow niche things, and all they want to do

454
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: is send you to Amazon and earn an affiliate fee

455
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: or wherever else they're earning an affiliate fee. And so

456
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: when you go search for best anything, these things just

457
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: populate Google on a pretty and I've played with with

458
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: what does it, duck, dot Go and bing and some

459
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: of the other search engines, and you still end up

460
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: seeing these things. There's no avoiding them. Yeah, and it's

461
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: the list itself is fast. How it became an industry.

462
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: I think the first place you started to see it

463
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: become really popular was BuzzFeed, right there was They were

464
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: ridiculed early on for making listical very popular though, but people,

465
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: but the media community didn't like them, but they were

466
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: wildly popular because it's not pros. It's just oh, you're

467
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: interested in X, here's eighty x is and have fun

468
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: with you. And there was some something there was a

469
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: perception that there was an inelegance to it and when

470
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: in fact it's like that's actually just what people wanted,

471
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: right um. And then the next evolution of that are

472
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: are the the creation of sites like Wirecutter and those

473
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: sites that are like, here are the best refrigerators, here

474
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: are the best whatever, and they're using affiliate links on

475
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: top of it. And that was back in the day.

476
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: That was things like, um seen that and I'm trying

477
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: to remember. The other Ziff Davis property name is Escape,

478
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: but it was a run of tech focus sites and

479
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: it was the best computers, the best laptops, the best monitors.

480
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: But there was some journalistic credibility behind that. I don't

481
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: know if you get that anymore. Yeah, um, I think

482
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: there's a there's a handful of honest attempts at it. Um,

483
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: Like the Wirecutter is owned by the New York Times.

484
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: That's and that's an honest application if you're, uh, there's

485
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: something weird about the wirecutter. Though, if you're like I

486
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: want the best um drip coffee maker, it you type

487
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: that best drip coffee maker into Google, you're gonna get

488
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: work almost everything. Now you're gonna get work. And now

489
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: it's like, do I trust this thing? That's like always

490
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: the answer? Now, like it's it's inevitably always a going

491
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: to be uh this one site and uh, there's like

492
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: no competition and so so I'm using bing instead of

493
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: Google just for test purposes. The first thing that comes

494
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: up is coffee maker picks dot com and they give

495
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: you and then coffee Maker Picks is the next one.

496
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: So these are these best digs dot Com. These are

497
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: the sort of Finally halfway down the page is consumer

498
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: Reports Epicurious Comparable Amazon Pets, which is kind of interesting.

499
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: One of the things that Google. By the way, I

500
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: could tell you what the best rip coffeemaker is without this.

501
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: But one of the things that Google does is it's

502
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: sort of personalizes your search based on sites you've gone

503
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: to before and things you like, and so every now

504
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: and then it helps to open up I don't know

505
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: what your browser of choices, but if you open up

506
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: so I use Chrome, but if I'll open up Safari

507
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: or Firefox where I'm not logged in and I don't

508
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: normally Google over there, and I'll get a very different

509
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: run of things than what I get on Chrome where

510
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: I live, which is which is kind of fascinating that

511
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: even search has become biased and skewed in some ways. Yeah,

512
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: And I mean they entry in the book that covers

513
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: that topic is the filter bubble um, which is like

514
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: you're You've posed an interesting scenario where you could type

515
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: for best coffee maker and I could I could search

516
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: for it, and we maybe have different results based upon

517
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: the based upon Google having knowledge about us and presenting

518
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: what we it thinks would be better. Um. Sort of

519
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: a fascinating little conundrum. Right, Maybe maybe that is true.

520
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: Maybe there is a There is no best coffee maker.

521
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: There is there's only a best for you. Well, that's

522
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: sort of true about everything in life. The best for

523
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: me is the brevel grind and brew it's beans over here,

524
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: a thermis down here with a timer so you could

525
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: set it to go off at four thirty. No radio

526
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: has no affiliate fees. You're not getting anything. Back in

527
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: the day, when my blog was on type Pad, before

528
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: even knew what affiliate fees were, I did a post

529
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: called your coffee Sucks and basically explain why everybody's coffee

530
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: is bad. First of all, you're buying ground beans and

531
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: then sticking them in the shelf in the cabinet for

532
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: six months so they stink. You give me your rotten, crappy,

533
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: mineral infested water, and using a really mediocre coffee maker

534
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: that doesn't brew for long enough, and then burns the

535
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: coffee on the So some of us are very particular

536
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: about our drugs. So was that did your post? Uh

537
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: do well? And search? Oh my god, it went crazy. Yeah,

538
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: I have this thing still. I've you mentioned fam ocular

539
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: smiled blog. I haven't updated it in eight nine years, probably,

540
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: but I still get emails from people because it still

541
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: does pretty well in search. And I'll get emails from Uh, wait,

542
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: you haven't posted on that in eight years other than

543
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: too like other than to say, I wrote a book,

544
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: here is a link to it. I haven't I haven't been,

545
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: and you're not updating the list of lists. I'm trying

546
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: to remember. I've stopped doing that about five years ago too. Um,

547
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: I guess got too much. As I told someone on Twitter,

548
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: I chose life. I would have had. That's a fair answer.

549
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: I would have had to hire someone. It got so

550
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: all consuming. Uh And even even though it was even

551
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: back in two thousand five, it was still like a

552
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: pretty hard thing to do. Um, and now it's impossible

553
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: for one person to do it. It sounds like the

554
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: internet was like somebody needed to index the Internet back then,

555
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: like there was like kind of like a Yahoo Ask

556
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: kind of quality of the internet back then, that somebody

557
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: could compile everything into a place, and that you could

558
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: you could consume all of you could. You could look

559
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: at everyone's you could look at every list of the

560
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: best albums of two thousand and six. At one point

561
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: that was an actual thing one could do. Then you

562
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: can hunt down two of them. Now it's millions. That's right.

563
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: You could just simply couldn't do it now. Um, that's

564
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: why we have Google. You don't have to do it anymore. Google,

565
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: it will just tell you all. Heil are overlords, surgeon

566
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: Larry I for one record, uh, welcome our new technology, overlords.

567
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to living in the future, whenever it

568
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: chooses to arrive. I want to talk about your writing

569
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: and your focus on technology and culture and media, because

570
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: you've written some stuff that I found really really amusing,

571
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: including some things that have mocked what I've done, either

572
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 1: unwillingly or unwittingly. Um, but I'm always amused by that.

573
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: And one and this goes back to the recursive nature

574
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: of your work, where you're always looking for these meta

575
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: themes that show up in media, and you start to

576
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: see the same ideas over and over again, and what

577
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: what at one point in time might have sounded like

578
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: a clever idea. When you see a hundred of them,

579
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this is just a nonsense formula. So

580
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: the one that struck me the other day because I'm

581
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: guilty of it, X should buy Y. I got. I

582
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: thought you were going to point that one out well first,

583
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: because years ago I wrote a terrible column for The

584
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: Washington Post that Apple should buy Twitter. In hindsight, what

585
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: an awful idea. But last year I wrote a column

586
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: Apple should buy Netflix, and it turned out to be

587
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: a great idea because at that time Netflix was like

588
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: sixty or seventy million billion dollar market cap. It's now

589
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: coming up on one eighty or something insane um. And

590
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: then I did a follow up, which is, all right,

591
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: you missed Apple, you miss Twitter, Now go buy Disney.

592
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: I usually don't like those sort of columns, but every

593
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: now and then something happens. It's like, you know, the

594
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: Apple Video store is not great, and the Twitter the

595
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: Netflix version is, so it would make my life easy.

596
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: By the way, everything I write, I don't know if

597
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: you have this experience. Everything I write is for me.

598
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: And when I say Apple should buy Netflix, it's not

599
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: because I have a grand vision of the future of

600
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: technology that would simply make my life more convenient. So

601
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how many how many people

602
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: write like that or right for themselves, but so that

603
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: cracked me up. What motivated extra by Why? So, uh, yeah,

604
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: it was merely noticing a trope out there, which is

605
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: a lot of technology business writers. I sometimes feel like

606
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: they've run out of like tricks they got to they

607
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: have some they have to get three columns in this week,

608
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: and they have to come up with one, and so

609
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: they go Apple stop by Netflix, and they write that thing.

610
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: And so I called it extra by Why, and I

611
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: just listed a whole bunch dozen dozen And you realize

612
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: quickly that this is like, uh, it's a you know,

613
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: it's a trope or you know, if you want to

614
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: be more negative, gimmick, it's a gimmick. So when I

615
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: read media criticism, I often say, this person doesn't understand

616
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: the nuance. They don't get this, they don't get When

617
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: I read that, I immediately said guilty, Yeah, I just

618
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: like I'm nailed. Yeah. And the thing about it is

619
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: like I could have been very um negative towards the

620
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: trope at that, but I ended with by saying I've

621
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: I do this on Twitter all the time. And the

622
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: reason that even though I think it is a bit

623
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: a little bit of a lazy thing, there is something

624
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: fascinating by the extration by y Trope that that kind

625
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: of article is that I think in the article, I

626
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: call it business fan fick because what allows you to

627
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: do is kind of project a future in your head.

628
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: What would it look like if the Wall Street Journal

629
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: bought Flipboard? Like that's one of those examples that like

630
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: people would say five years ago, you there was like

631
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: a big idea that that somebody should buy flipboard, And

632
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: it's like that no one regrets not having bought flipboard today, right,

633
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: Um or whatever? Startup? Like there's a lot of the

634
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: small startups that you hear this said about Twitter should

635
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: buy Nuzzle or Microsoft should buy geth Hub. Yeah exactly,

636
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: And that'll of a and uh And I think that

637
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: there's like there's kind of a weird value in it

638
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: because it allows you your mind to kind of wander

639
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: and kind of speculate about that future and sort of

640
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: say with yourself, what would it look like if that happened? Um,

641
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: Microsoft buying GitHub is like a fascinating one because if

642
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: you had written it a few years ago to sound

643
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: it had sounded preposterous um just because of microsoft stance

644
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: towards the open source community, um, but also like uh it.

645
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: No one would have foreseen the change in how Microsoft

646
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: has been received over the past five ten years, and

647
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: the CEO did a lot to change the reputation. And

648
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: then some of the other companies like Facebook and Google

649
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: let's don't be evil, became a little bit evil, and

650
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: I think everybody looked at Microsoft with a little I've

651
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: always been a negative viewer of Microsoft, and I'm kind

652
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: of saying, oh, they're all bad guys. Yeah, well, my guest,

653
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: I was taking an interesting thing lately where they're picking

654
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: companies that are have good reputations, and so I always

655
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: kind of thought they would buy Twitter, and that was

656
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: just gonna be the worst outcome because it's the wrong

657
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: company doing it, and it's it's mashing up to things

658
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: that have negative emotions around them. And I'm really glad

659
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: for Microsoft that they did. And I mean, I think

660
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: Twitter is valuable when and whatever, I just think it

661
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: in a horrible matching of those two things. Somebody is

662
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: going to start a new social network and uh, it

663
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: could be one of the big platforms. Um. There will

664
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: be competition in the next year for Facebook, and whether

665
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: it's somebody trying to buy something or or starting from

666
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: scratch or just something that emerges from nowhere, I think

667
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: it'd be a good time for Google to take a

668
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: shot at doing a new social network that promises privacy.

669
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: Um It. It'll be a hefty marketing effort to convince

670
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: people that Google will make a social network the promises privacy. Um.

671
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: But I think that would be amazing if they took

672
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: a shot at the most interesting aspect of that is

673
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: if there was a way too. If you if you

674
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: look at um how unsuccessful they've been at policing YouTube

675
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: and coming up with um sifting out inappropriate things for

676
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: kids and whatever. So I don't know if if I'm

677
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: confident that they have an ability to do what Facebook

678
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: clearly has not shown ability to do, which is separate

679
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: real from fake, identify what is valuable and what's not

680
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: and not. None of the social networks do that any well,

681
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: the exception being linked in because people's professional career, there

682
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: are a whole lot of hoaxeres on LinkedIn posting fake

683
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: job like that stuff gets found out way too quickly. Yeah,

684
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: and Zuckerberg is not being reassuring, and he says it

685
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: should take us three years before we have solved this problem.

686
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: And it's like three years. What I have to deal with?

687
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: This must mentioned information for three years? Well you don't.

688
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: You don't have to. I mean, you and I are

689
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: of not that far apart generationally. How often are you

690
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: on Facebook? I look at it once today. Really, I

691
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: feel like I'm once a week, and I think that's

692
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: healthier if I could, if I could reduce that. Uh.

693
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 1: I was never a daily user. And when I set

694
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: up Facebook, I was always astonished at everything they asked.

695
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: They don't have anything that's accurate about me except where

696
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: I work and where I went to college and grad

697
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: school everything else. No, you're not getting my breath day. No,

698
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: you're not getting No, you're none of that stuff. Why? Why?

699
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: And yet everybody voluntarily gives that stuff. Who's your favorite bands?

700
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if you and my wife you would

701
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: know that. But you're a for profit tech company. I

702
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: have no interest in share. I don't want you to

703
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: serve me ads on that I'm ignoring them anyway, but

704
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: that I'm that's that's me. Let's let's talk about um.

705
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: Some of your other columns that I found fascinating, especially

706
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: in light of the Encyclopedia of Misinformation. Tell us about

707
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: Steve wins Vermier. Oh headline, this is not a Vermier.

708
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: Thank you. I was gonna ask what was the headline

709
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: of that story. So one of the things I'm fascinating

710
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: with is art forgeries. And I wrote a five part

711
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: series about all the different times we've been been manipulated,

712
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: all the different ways we are manipulated with art, and

713
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: one of them is really easy to point toward, which

714
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: is um forgeries. And uh, that specific column goes through

715
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 1: my desire to have a Vermier, and because who wouldn't

716
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: want one? There are only depending on who's counting vermer

717
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: existence that we know of and theoretically and some that's

718
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: the thing. Every once in a while that will be

719
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: a new one added to the cannon. And it's not

720
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: that somebody has discovered a painting. Usually it's something it's

721
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 1: that somebody has decided, Oh, this thing that's that we've

722
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: been debating for the past twenty fifty years finally gets

723
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: led into the canon of allowed official Vermeer's formers um.

724
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: Steve Wynn bought one, uh, and I think his is

725
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: fascinating because it was something that was not perceived to

726
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: be part of official vermier Dam until he bought it,

727
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: and then it became so. And what It's an interesting

728
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: case because it it's like saying the verifying fact of

729
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: art is not it's historical voracity or any kind of

730
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: analysis on it, or yeah, it has something to do

731
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: with that. It really has to do is did somebody

732
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: pay the money to make it worth it? So someone

733
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: spent what do you spent thirty million dollars on a

734
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: Vermeer of questionable uh provenance? Is that's their description? That's right?

735
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: And is it now considered a real Vermeer? It is

736
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: it's because somebody spent so much money on it that

737
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: he was. There was no new historical analysis done on it,

738
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: There was no no new scientific work done on it.

739
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: It was that somebody paid that amount and now it

740
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: has to be And uh, did you track the recent

741
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: da Vinci with the what was it the museum in

742
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 1: somewhere Abu Dhabi or so, So essentially they figured out

743
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: something that was of previously uncertain provenance and came to

744
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: the conclusion it's legit and then paid an ungodly amount

745
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: of money for And that's in a fascinating case because

746
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: I think that that christ painting that was most da

747
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: Vinci people did not think was real. I bet in

748
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: fifty years that will be the Mona Lisa. I really

749
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: believe that history is going to reevaluate it and it's

750
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: gonna and because it's become the most valuable painting about them,

751
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: that must mean that it's not not only a da Vinci,

752
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: but it's important and that it is deserving of of investigation,

753
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: and it's it's even suddenly more mysterious, it's more artful.

754
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: It's like it's full of all kinds of new value

755
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: just because somebody wrote a big check for it. Um.

756
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: And I think that's a fascinating thing with the art world.

757
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: UM and that that specific story. What I did was

758
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: I decided that I wanted my own Vermeer. And there's

759
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: this thing in China whereas many many of these in China,

760
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: hundreds of these companies where you can order whatever painting

761
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: you want off the internet, and it's it's literally a

762
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: painted forgery, stroke for stroke on the original one exactly right,

763
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: and by sub estimates, there's like twenty people that are

764
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: employed doing this all day long in two specific regions

765
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: of China. And uh, it's a lot of Westerners saying

766
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: I have a favorite painting, please make it for a

767
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: hundred bucks and send it to me, and really, and

768
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: it shows up and so there's a roth go I'm

769
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: very interested in. I would pay a hundred bucks for

770
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: a roth cup and you could put it up and uh,

771
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: only a handful of your friends might be able to

772
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: notice that it's not real, and maybe not even them.

773
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: Do you remember the story about the Jackson Pollock um

774
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: that supposedly was given to his girlfriend and it's provenance

775
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: has been questioned and and it was up for sale

776
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: some time ago, and I think it was there was

777
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: a silly number like fifty thousand dollars. Is it worth

778
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: it to roll the bet the dicellars for what could

779
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: ultimately be worth fifty million dollars? Yeah? That that sounds

780
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: like a good bet. Right. How did it turn out?

781
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think it's ever been resolved. And

782
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: there was an issue, uh with I think it was

783
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: her estate as to what to do with this um

784
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,959
Speaker 1: in the new York Times sometime ago. Can you stick

785
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: around a bit? I have so many more questions for you. Sure,

786
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: we have been speaking with Rex Storgats, author of the

787
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: Encyclopedia of Misinformation. If you enjoy this conversation, we'll be

788
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: sure and stick around and check out our podcast extras.

789
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: Will we keep the tape running and continue to discuss

790
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: all things misinformation like? We love your comments, feedback and

791
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg

792
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: dot net. Follow me on Twitter at rit Halts. You

793
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: can check out my daily column at Bloomberg dot com.

794
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: I'm Barry Ridhults. You're listening to Masters in Business on

795
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, Rex, Thanks so much

796
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: for doing this. During the break, we were talking about

797
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: some of the ideas in the book and how you

798
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: wanna get them out into the firmament, and we were

799
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: talking about podcasts and radio. Tell us what you're thinking

800
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: in terms of setting doing the podcast, because you've done

801
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: pretty much everything else in media. Yeah, you know what

802
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: I didn't say during the broadcast. You were a producer

803
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: at was a MSM dot com. How how did that

804
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: work out? Um? It was alright, I was I was

805
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: there for a couple of years. This is back when

806
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: MSNBC dot com was in Seattle. People for people forget

807
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: that the MS and MS was originally Microsoft. Is this

808
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: a Michael Kinsley joint? Originally it was originally Yes, I

809
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: came in after he had been had left, but as

810
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: was Slate. Slate was a Kinsley Microsoft fanchow and uh

811
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:55,399
Speaker 1: they yeah, eventually they packed up. Eventually NBC bought back there,

812
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 1: the Microsoft part. And there is no such thing as

813
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: a UM division of MSNBC inside of Seattle, inside of

814
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: Redmond anymore as it once was. And that's where I

815
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: worked out of Seattle, which is a real interesting town.

816
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: I've been to that Microsoft campus. It's astonishing, giant college campus. Yeah,

817
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: it's Uh. I think I was too young to enjoy Seattle.

818
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: I think I'd love it now. Um, But it was

819
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: like Seattle was felt to me like a town of

820
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: UM middle managers. Like there was a lot of project

821
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: managers at Amazon, and project managers at Starbucks, and project

822
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: managers at Mobile and Boeing, and there was all of

823
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: these companies, very successful companies, interesting places to work, but

824
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: it was like a town where everyone was a project

825
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: manager who wanted to be a vice president. That was

826
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: my attitude about the place at the time that it was.

827
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like there was a lot of innovation

828
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: there it, which is strange to say for a town

829
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: that's considered a technical hub. Right. Um, and I look

830
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: back on that, I think that's that's actually just mostly

831
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 1: my youthful arrogance. Like it was a fine It was

832
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: actually a fine town, and I was I was just

833
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: not like I was. I was too youthful and party

834
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: ish at that time to really enjoy it. Now I

835
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: go back and all of the people who I thought

836
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: of as like, uh, you know, middle management are are

837
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: actually those vps or e vps now of those places,

838
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: and they're fascinating. I don't know what my problem was. So,

839
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, Seattle and Portland's for that matter, are places

840
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: where I visit fairly regularly, and wherever I go, I

841
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: always say to myself, could I live in this part

842
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: of the country, you know, permanently, not just for a

843
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: couple of years. Um. Seattle is really uh, it's on fire.

844
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: It's it's happening, as is Portland's. I mean, you can

845
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: pretty much work you way down the coast and just

846
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 1: about every city is booming. But Portland's another one of

847
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: those cities where gee, who who who knew that this

848
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 1: own is just exploding? And I find that fascinating. Yeah,

849
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 1: I bought when I went to Seattle in two thousand five,

850
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: I bought a condo and by two thousand seven I

851
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: was leaving, and by that time, the real estate market

852
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: was falling apart. So I kept it because it was

853
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: like everything was crumbling, and I thought, this is going

854
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 1: to be the worst investment I've ever made. So did

855
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: you double your money or triple your money? More than triple?

856
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,959
Speaker 1: Now I still have it, And of course now it's

857
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: Amazon has move since moved downtown. I bought a place

858
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: downtown and Amazon has since moved their headquarters in New HQ.

859
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: Is amazing. Yeah, And now it's like, oh, this real

860
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: accident thing that I bought is actually going to turn

861
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: out to be one of the wisest investments I've ever

862
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: had to had. Right, So never confuse brains with the

863
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: bull market, stocks or real estate, is absolutely true. So

864
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: are you out there often? Do you visit your place?

865
00:51:55,520 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: Are you renting it? I rented out Um to continue

866
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: will parade of Amazon employees who want to want to

867
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: live nearby their new headquarters. Uh. And so you're gonna

868
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: hold onto this for a while. That that's uh, that's

869
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: pretty funny. Um. So what else did we get to

870
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk about some some of your columns. Um.

871
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: We discussed the Jackson Pollock I mentioned. Uh. After I

872
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: read that story, I showed it to my wife, who

873
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: teaches fashion illustration and design, and she goes, oh, there,

874
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: you can take a class and painting like Jackson Pollock.

875
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 1: Like what, Yeah, they offer it. What go go sign

876
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: up for that. If you really wanted Jackson Pollock, you

877
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: don't have to spend fifty grand. It's Pollock. You could

878
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: do it yourself. Okay, So we signed up for this class.

879
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: It gets canceled last minute and we never redid it.

880
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 1: But I would like to hang a big Jackson Pollock. Um.

881
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: The hard part is his signature. The rest of it

882
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: isn't Isn't that difficult? So there's a famous instance of

883
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: forgery out there of a Pollock that was revealed to

884
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: have have benefittory because the misspelled Jackson Pollock. That's always

885
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,959
Speaker 1: a clue when you get the artist name wrong that

886
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: that's never a never a good sign so I wanted

887
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: to talk more about the book a little bit. What

888
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: surprised you most when you were doing the research about this,

889
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 1: because there are some kind of interesting entries in here. Yeah,

890
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: I guess, um, I think it isn't even actually what

891
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: surprised me that there's all kinds of interesting ideas in it.

892
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 1: The biggest surprise is actually what happened outside of the book.

893
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,959
Speaker 1: I was halfway done with the book, writing the book

894
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: when um, wait an election and Trump got elected. So

895
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: this was you started this book. So my assumption in

896
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: a book where Trump really is not mentioned by name,

897
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: I think you said he's in one that maya was

898
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: that this was pushed back to his presidency, not that

899
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: you specifically reference him in any way, shape or form,

900
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: but it's just sort of like, this is what grifters

901
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: have done since the beginning of time, and here's a

902
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: million examples of it. Yeah. So the quick story is

903
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: that it was originally titled it was sold to the

904
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: publisher as the Encyclopedia of Fakeery, and that's a little

905
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: bit more playful title. Uh, And the the subject matter

906
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: was a little bit more i'd say, aesthetics, culture, society,

907
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: and it wasn't so it wasn't a very serious book,

908
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't say that the book you're holding now

909
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: is not also not a super serious book, but it

910
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: it took on a graver tone when halfway through writing it, UM,

911
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: we had a ran new presidents, and all of a sudden,

912
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:57,959
Speaker 1: it was like the entire idea that knowledge is uh

913
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: socially constructed, or that it's that what we know is

914
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 1: up for grabs, that kind of like that, which is

915
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: a kind of a glib reaction to living in this society,

916
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: that's like over over mediated, what do we know? We

917
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: don't know anything. That kind of attitude suddenly became grave

918
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: and I realized, like, oh, I have to make this

919
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: thing more serious. And so that was the biggest changes

920
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, I had to introduce a

921
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: lot more social science into it. UM. So there's things like, um,

922
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: the backfire effect and filter bubble and these these topics

923
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,959
Speaker 1: that are much more from psychology and sociology UH that

924
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: try try more to get to the underlying concepts of misinformation.

925
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: My favorite word of the past decade has to be agnetology,

926
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: which is culturally constructed ignorance. To go back to people, UM,

927
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: the tobacco executives, more recently climate change deniers. UH, anybody

928
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: who has an interest in truth not getting out there. Uh.

929
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: If you have enough resources, you have enough time, energy, money.

930
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: We learned recently in the book Bid Blood and Theoropness

931
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 1: they were they were kind of trying to do the

932
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,399
Speaker 1: same thing. Um, if you have enough money and enough

933
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: willingness to gaslight a nation, you could create an alternative

934
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,720
Speaker 1: set of facts. And there are people who will unfortunately

935
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: believe things that aren't true to someone else's advantage. It's

936
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: it's astonishing. The I like the my definition for agnetology

937
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: in the book, it's uh, the science of creating stupidity.

938
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about it is that it's not when

939
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,399
Speaker 1: you think of propaganda, you tend to think that it's

940
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 1: like uh, an attempt to convince someone of an argument, right,

941
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: And it's through various means that you're trying to argue

942
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: a point of view and eventually they'll adopt it. And

943
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: what's interesting about the anatology stuff that is especially around

944
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: the tobacco companies, UM, some big oil. Especially what we

945
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: learned around tobacco was that it wasn't that UM, the

946
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 1: tobacco companies made an attempt to fill the information space

947
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: with like corrective analysis. Like it wasn't trying. There was

948
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: no like scientific studies done. It was actually just like

949
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: continually bombarding it over and over and over and over

950
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: again with more and more and more and more information.

951
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: And so it became like this endless thing where anything

952
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: that you believed, you could find a resource for that.

953
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: What's saying that thing. And there's a lesson there that

954
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: we're going through right now, which is, UM, any belief

955
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: that you have, you can google it and you will

956
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: find someone on the internet who has the similar belief,

957
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: and uh, if you don't want to find contradictory evidence

958
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: for it, you don't have to. UM that's a big

959
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 1: problem we're going through right now. And I think that

960
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 1: in some ways that tobacco, those tobacco lawsuits, they the

961
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: science of creating stupidity that that those researchers developed, some

962
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: of which are real powerful, well known psycho sociologists of

963
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: the day, is coming back to haunt us. The the

964
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: my favorite line and I'm trying to remember where I

965
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: pulled this from. UM, tobacco companies sell two things, cigarettes

966
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: and doubt. And that's really quite fascinating. Let me jump

967
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: to my favorite questions. This is what we ask all

968
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: of our guests. Tell us the most important thing people

969
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: don't know about your background. I was having dinner with

970
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: my wife last night and I casually mentioned that I

971
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: was once a flash developer, and flash the software, flash

972
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: the softwarees and those like flash games, little interactives, and

973
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: eventually video is what it became known for, and which

974
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: is hard to it's almost gone from the innergry now

975
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: it's being expunged. Once Apple killed support for it. That

976
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: was the beginning of the end. So uh, and it

977
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: was It's funny that my my own wife, even ary

978
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: two for two years, did not know this about me. UM.

979
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's important. I think it's funny

980
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: that for years I did this job that is now

981
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: completely defunk going away. Might as well be a steam

982
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: engine fitter. UM. Tell us about your early mentors who

983
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: helped you along with your career. UM, I think you know.

984
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: I grew up in very rural North Dakota, and there

985
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I didn't know anyone who

986
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: I didn't know anyone who went to college. I that's

987
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: weird to say. What what is the prime economy and

988
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: north I assumed some farm farming. Yeah, my graduating class

989
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: was twenty seven people, twenty five of whom were farmers

990
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: um and maybe twenty three of whom still are farmers. UM.

991
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: And so I growing up, I didn't I didn't have

992
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: role models really. I mean there are people that I admired. H.

993
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: I had a really great English teacher, Mr Olig. I

994
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: guess that's who I would say is my my mentor

995
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: in some ways, um, just because you know, he really

996
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: encouraged me. But I grew up in a place where

997
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: I didn't have like a uh like access to a

998
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: lot about outside information. And when I said like I

999
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: didn't know anyone who went to college, I really like,

1000
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: I I didn't know anyone who went to like the

1001
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: University of Minnesota, which would have been like the big school.

1002
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 1: Still it's still eight hours away, but it would have

1003
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: been a probably the big state school to go to

1004
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: more much less did I know anyone went to Harvard?

1005
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: You know, I wouldn't would have like blown my mind.

1006
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: So when I started to go to decide to go

1007
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: to college, I it just never would have occurred to

1008
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,439
Speaker 1: me that I would go to like any of those

1009
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: places ever in my life. So you applied to the

1010
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: University of Minnesota. I didn't because that that seemed like impossible.

1011
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 1: I applied to the University of North Dakota, which was actually,

1012
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: uh five hours away. And it's the furthest that my

1013
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: mind could imagine going, and it's the furthest that anyone

1014
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: that I ever knew went, and it it's still in state,

1015
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: but it was five hours away, and it seemed like

1016
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: it seemed like I was pushing boundaries by doing that. Really,

1017
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: that's that's fascinating. So, as a Jewish kid grown up

1018
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: in Long Island, forget college. It was a given I

1019
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: was going to law school. I was five, and I

1020
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: was pretty much told, yeah, you'll be going to law

1021
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: school or medical school that way. There was never any

1022
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: sort of, well, if you want to go to college,

1023
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: you can. If not here, here your other career options.

1024
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: It was pretty much, hey, we'll see how smart you are,

1025
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: maybe you'll get into medical school, and if you can,

1026
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: well we can always use another lawyer. It was never

1027
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: that that's fascinating that And yet you you go to

1028
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: North Dakota, what was your experience like there? Uh? Und

1029
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: the univers Earth Dakota is it's pretty typical big state school.

1030
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: You know, twelve students. It's probably it's probably bigger when

1031
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: than what you when you hear the name that it

1032
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: probably is it. I don't think it was any different

1033
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 1: from going to like, you know, University of Michigan or

1034
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: an Arbor or or any of the big football powerhouse. Yeah,

1035
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: it's it's It was a pretty typical big state school,

1036
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 1: and it was it was a transformative thing for me

1037
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 1: because suddenly, um, just wildly more diversity, but the basic

1038
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: North Dakotan's or was it a little more national reach.

1039
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: It's probably about North Dakotans ten percent Minnesota something like that,

1040
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: and then UM. But the big thing was that, you know,

1041
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 1: when I was in high school, there was no outside media,

1042
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: and so I my high school library was the only thing.

1043
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: There's no in library and town. There's the high school

1044
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: library is the only accessed external information. This is obviously

1045
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: pre Internet. And the library had three magazines, UM Sports Illustrated,

1046
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: H Time, Newsweek, and one daily newspaper, UM the Bismarck Tribune,

1047
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: which had just it was basically a couple of local

1048
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 1: stories and some a pr to cales. Other than that,

1049
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going on in the world.

1050
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: I wed the three networks, but no cable um and

1051
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: so I didn't know any popular music. And when I

1052
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: went to college, I suddenly discovered the Cars and the

1053
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: Pixies and the key here and every band that means

1054
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: with the that I had never Not only had had

1055
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 1: I never heard before, I never could have heard before

1056
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: because it was not on the radio and I didn't

1057
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: I didn't go to record stores. I don't even I

1058
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: would have to travel forever to go to a record store.

1059
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: No local tower records where you grew up. So college

1060
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: Walthly was like uh an I opening thing to me,

1061
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: and I loved it, and I end up staying there

1062
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: for probably too long because I was like, this is great.

1063
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: I just sit around and learned stuff. So how long

1064
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: were you in college? For like six and a half years.

1065
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: That's why I was five years, So you're you're worse

1066
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: than me. I got. I got a few degrees. I started,

1067
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 1: I started premed um, you know, I studied everything like

1068
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: Latin and first all the sciences, and then I got

1069
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: really interested in philosophy and literature. And by the time

1070
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: I was done, I remember ah going to my advisor

1071
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: and him saying, I think that you probably have taken

1072
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: more classes than anyone ever here, and I would like

1073
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: to actually go back and look, I bet that's probably true. Um,

1074
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: I got three majors and two minors, and I would

1075
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: have stayed forever if I could. If you knew me

1076
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: at like twenty three, you would have guessed that it's

1077
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: impossible this person is not going to be a college professor,

1078
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: because like, that's just like what I loved. And whenever

1079
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm run into someone who says they don't they didn't

1080
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: like college, I just go why, it's the best ticking

1081
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: in the world. You just around read books and talk

1082
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 1: about him. I why how could you not like that? Like,

1083
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: speaking of books, tell us about some of your favorite books. Um,

1084
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna name a weird book that influenced

1085
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: my book. Um, do you remember this book early eighties

1086
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 1: called girdle escher Box. I swear to God, I knew

1087
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 1: you're gonna say that. I swear to God that that

1088
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: was on the tip of my tongue. That book is

1089
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 1: sitting on the top shelf of my bookshelf in my

1090
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: office at home, and I am due to reread it

1091
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: because it's all about the recursive nature of of music,

1092
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: of mathematics, um and and of art and those three.

1093
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 1: I I'm just I almost was going to volunteer that,

1094
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 1: but I'm just um Douglas Hofstad so he. I think

1095
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 1: that book is fascinating because, uh, for a lot of reasons. One,

1096
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: it has no single point. Like today, if you're going

1097
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: to write a book, you have to make a pitch

1098
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: that you can come up with in two sentences, probably

1099
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: too long, but you have to say precisely what this

1100
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: thing the elevator, Yes, And it has to be it

1101
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: has to be tight. And especially I think in the

1102
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: idea in the space of like idea books, whether they're

1103
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: marketing or business or whatever, it has to be so

1104
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: kind of like you're gonna drill this point home and

1105
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: over and over and again. Um good. A lesser Bach

1106
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 1: was this, I guess the book of philosophy but also psychology,

1107
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,919
Speaker 1: but also like it had plays and it had all

1108
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: of this like random assemblage of stuff and it never

1109
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: really tried to talk you into anything, and there's not

1110
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: enough books like that. I think of my book in

1111
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: the same way is that I'm more interested in like

1112
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: playing around with ideas and experimenting and like and and

1113
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 1: not trying to talk you into any specific point of view,

1114
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: but just to like give you a space to kind

1115
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: of like let your mind wander. And it's little more atmospheric,

1116
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: I guess, um, And so I love That's why I

1117
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: love that book is that it doesn't ever browbeat you.

1118
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: And it's also just like it's so many random things,

1119
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 1: Like it's like, here's an essay about mc yester's paintings,

1120
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: and then here's like a dialogue between tortoise, a tortoise

1121
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 1: and Achilles on a hill, and it's just it's like

1122
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: a weird collection. I had that assigned in college. And

1123
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: the thing that makes it a coherent whole is that

1124
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: theme that runs through everything of the self replicating, self

1125
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: repeating nature of mathematics and art, music and theoretically everything else.

1126
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating book. He had another book out after that,

1127
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: The Mind's Eye, Yes, which is another really interesting, more

1128
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: philosophical book. Um and not quite as um esoteric? Is

1129
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: that is that the right word? But he's a fascinating writer.

1130
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: Give us more what other books? Not that you really

1131
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: that one book is enough to keep most people occupied

1132
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 1: for a long time. I'll give an off subject one

1133
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: something has nothing to do with my book, but it's

1134
01:07:55,080 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 1: always been something I've loved. Um, it's a probably more obscure. Um.

1135
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: Do you remember I shouldn't use past tense. This person

1136
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 1: is living, do you know? Uh, the architect rem Coolhouse.

1137
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: The name is certainly familiars a if it's in that

1138
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 1: category of stark atitect, like when there was that emergence

1139
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 1: of people in the nineties that was like they became

1140
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: the star architects. We're in the Bloomberg building right now.

1141
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: And I would not be surprised if he had some

1142
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: influence on this kind of thing. Um. Well, he wrote

1143
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:30,280
Speaker 1: a book in oh maybe like called Delirious New York

1144
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 1: and it's a history of New York City. But it's

1145
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: written in a specific time when you could write a

1146
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 1: book that allowed you to use really poetic language. And

1147
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 1: I say, we're poetic with some hesitation, because that makes

1148
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 1: it sound like, you know, Flighty or something. But it

1149
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,840
Speaker 1: was a book about a theory that posited New York

1150
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: exists this way because of this set of systems, and

1151
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: the specific system he was interested in was the grid.

1152
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: And and once you start to see the city through

1153
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 1: the lens of how he sets it up, which is, um,

1154
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 1: the innovation of New York is the grid and it's

1155
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: the innovation of America. You kind of go, oh wow,

1156
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: this is really interesting, and he writes it into very

1157
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 1: um all against used the same adjective poetic way that

1158
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 1: is like, it's not um, it's not making a grand argument.

1159
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: It's simply like letting you understand a way to think

1160
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,560
Speaker 1: about New York City, delirious new York, a retroactive manifesto

1161
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,640
Speaker 1: from Manhattan, anything else. So we're gonna leave it with

1162
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 1: those two, both of which I think can keep people

1163
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 1: busy for quite some time. UM. I read a lot

1164
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: of Jonathan Swift writing this book, just because he was

1165
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: the the satirist of of lore that is so important

1166
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,799
Speaker 1: to our times. I have an entry about a modest proposal,

1167
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 1: and I went back and read the modest proposed it

1168
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: again for the first time. Brilliant stuff. Um. But he

1169
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: also did a series of essays on politics that are

1170
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: highly relevant to our time UM called the Art of

1171
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 1: Political Lying. Uh really recommend them Art of Political Lying.

1172
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 1: All right, well we'll make a note of that. So,

1173
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: since you started your blog way back when, what do

1174
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:25,719
Speaker 1: you think is the most significant thing that changed, uh

1175
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:30,519
Speaker 1: for better or worse in in terms of blogging and

1176
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 1: and media? Oh uh, you know. I a researcher called

1177
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 1: me yesterday and asked me a bunch of questions about

1178
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 1: internet and media technologies, and the final question was what

1179
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 1: are you excited about? Question? Well, emerge these two together,

1180
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 1: and it was what are you excited about? And I

1181
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: sat there and thought, I don't have an answer. If

1182
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 1: it had been on radio, they would have been dead

1183
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: air I had. I was like in my head, to

1184
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: do I want to say bitcoin? Do I want to

1185
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 1: say virtual reality? Do I? And I was like, I

1186
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 1: don't have an answer. And I think that it's because

1187
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 1: I grew up in an era where we were making

1188
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 1: um uh consumer facing products and more and more the

1189
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 1: startup world and the media world looks uh b two

1190
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 1: b um marketplaces and all of things that have value,

1191
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: but they're just way less interesting to me. And so

1192
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: I have a really hard time getting excited about consumer

1193
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: technology at all. Right now, Uh, that's interesting. The things

1194
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 1: that I do, the things that I get excited about

1195
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 1: are strangely have gone to the completely other side. And

1196
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: it's content. Right. Netflix got really effing good, right like

1197
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 1: TV got good, UM, podcasts got good. I don't know

1198
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 1: where it came from, but all of a sudden, like

1199
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 1: I wished I had made a choice so a few

1200
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: years ago and moved to l A and entered into

1201
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 1: the entertainment space. Decaisn't I never would have made five

1202
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:04,920
Speaker 1: years ago, but I kind of wish I had because

1203
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:06,640
Speaker 1: it's exciting right now to be in that world. But

1204
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 1: you don't have to be in l A. That's the

1205
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: beauty of the technology. You could do a podcast from anywhere.

1206
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: We happen to be in a radio studio in a

1207
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: media building. But I have one of the guys in

1208
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 1: my office does a podcast. They skype. It's him and

1209
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: somebody who's in Michigan and Animal Spirits, Michael Batnick. They

1210
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 1: basically do this using really inexpensive technology. It's a it's

1211
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: a it's a radio. He ended up getting a fixed

1212
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,719
Speaker 1: mic because it sounded better, and they use um either

1213
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: Skype or a direct line, so the quality of both

1214
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: sides audio is really good, and you end up with

1215
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,719
Speaker 1: It's amazing what you could do even with very very

1216
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: inexpensive technology. So you wouldn't have had it. Moved to

1217
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 1: an Yeah, for podcasting, I wouldn't have had to move,

1218
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: but to Besion TV, I would have had. Sure. Um,

1219
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:03,200
Speaker 1: podcasting isn't just because it is. I mean New York

1220
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 1: is sort of the hub, but it's way more dispersed.

1221
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 1: It's all around the country that things are going on. Uh.

1222
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 1: What do you do for fun? Uh? If if I could,

1223
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 1: if I could do anything in the world, it would

1224
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: be to like disappear into a cabin somewhere with a

1225
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: guitar and write songs that and put them on a

1226
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 1: four track and have no one ever hear them. That

1227
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 1: sounds like fun. That's what I That's what I do

1228
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:37,919
Speaker 1: for fun, is I record some songs at home. Um

1229
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 1: that I have no It sounds like I'm an aspiring

1230
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 1: an aspiring performer. I have no desire to perform or

1231
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:47,679
Speaker 1: have people hear it. I do it only for myself,

1232
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:50,920
Speaker 1: and so that's fun. That that does sound like fun.

1233
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: Tell us about a time you failed and what you

1234
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: learned from the experience. Um, we always in startups for

1235
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,720
Speaker 1: a long time, so those are nothing but failures over

1236
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 1: and over again. Uh, so I could tell lots of

1237
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:10,799
Speaker 1: stories there. So you don't have any Early Facebook stock

1238
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: is that what you're saying, I don't. I mean, I

1239
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 1: had I had some successes and so i'm things. I'm

1240
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 1: proud of um and products we made. But uh, but

1241
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:22,200
Speaker 1: but everyone who's done startups has like more, even the

1242
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 1: successful people have nine stories of failure. Um. I think

1243
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: I think the straw tell though, is that, Um, do

1244
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: you know I got sued by Garrison Keeler No so

1245
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 1: formally of Lake Woebegone NPR. And I think he kind

1246
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 1: of ran into a little trouble. He has, he has

1247
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: been in trouble recently. He's on a list of men

1248
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 1: that seemed to be involved in nefarious activities. Um, so

1249
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:48,680
Speaker 1: why did why did he sue you? This is a

1250
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 1: while ago, over ten years ago, back in the blogging era.

1251
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,560
Speaker 1: I started, Uh. I used to be in Minneapolis, and

1252
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 1: I started a website called min Speak, which is basically

1253
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: a It was a kind of a local reddit, I

1254
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:02,800
Speaker 1: guess like it was like you posted links and you

1255
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:04,840
Speaker 1: talked about them, and it was a community site. It

1256
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 1: was a community news site and it was pretty popular.

1257
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: And I did a marketing campaign for the site that

1258
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: was a bunch of T shirts. Um, and we made

1259
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: T shirts that said things like it was like an

1260
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 1: outline of Minnesota and it said land of ten thousand

1261
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: fakes rather than lakes. It was like little pond t shirts,

1262
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:25,640
Speaker 1: and one of the T shirts was um Prairie Ho Companion.

1263
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. I thought it was funny too. I had

1264
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,679
Speaker 1: a hundred fifty even printed up. Um. They sold out

1265
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 1: within six months, And about a year and a half

1266
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:41,280
Speaker 1: after that, I got a letter from Keeler's lawyer with

1267
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: a season desist down that's saying please stop selling these.

1268
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:49,680
Speaker 1: Uh No, I actually didn't say please. Now, isn't parody

1269
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 1: fair use for something like that is clearly parody. It

1270
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 1: seems really strange that one of America's leading satirists would

1271
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 1: be out trying to sue someone for poking fun at him.

1272
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:07,360
Speaker 1: It seemed absurd, right, So here's the thing I wanted

1273
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:08,719
Speaker 1: to give the guy at the benefit of the doubt.

1274
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 1: So I called the lawyer of this name that was

1275
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:13,679
Speaker 1: listed at the bottom, and I said, listen, your client

1276
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,639
Speaker 1: is making a mistake if you pursue this thing. Here's

1277
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 1: all I'm gonna do. I'm gonna scan in this two

1278
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 1: page cease and desist. I'm gonna I'm gonna put it

1279
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: on the Internet, and I'm gonna write on there about

1280
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 1: like this conversation I'm having, and I'm gonna tell everybody

1281
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: how absurd it is that this is happening that and

1282
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:37,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask for help for like first offendin

1283
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 1: defense because I'm not going to defend it myself. And

1284
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get it and I'm and I'm gonna make

1285
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 1: your client look like a fool. And the lawyer was like,

1286
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 1: are you threatening me, Mr Sargatts, And I was like, no,

1287
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm not threatening. I'm just telling you. Here are my

1288
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: cards on the table. I'm sharing strategy. I'm saying, don't

1289
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 1: pursue this. No one's gonna know. I'm not I don't

1290
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 1: have T shirts left, I don't know why you're doing this.

1291
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:04,519
Speaker 1: I'm not selling this T shirt anymore. Just I don't.

1292
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to make a big deal out of it.

1293
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, I'll talk to my client. And

1294
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 1: ten days ten days later, he called back and he said,

1295
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: my client wishes to pursue this lawsuit. And I was like, oh, man,

1296
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: you're asking for it. And so I did exactly that.

1297
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 1: I basically put the conversation that I had with him

1298
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 1: on on and I scanned the two pages and it

1299
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: was the biggest thing on the Internet that day. It

1300
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: went viral like crazy because both people from the left

1301
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 1: and the right liked it. It was the top link

1302
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 1: on Drudge Andrew Sullivan wrote a column about it. All

1303
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 1: of like the bloggers of that day were like it

1304
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,480
Speaker 1: was a big deal for them, like people like Matthew Iglesias,

1305
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,759
Speaker 1: like the kind of first generation of of Internet. People

1306
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 1: were all about it and up in an uproar, and uh,

1307
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:52,600
Speaker 1: I got six d comments and the A C. L.

1308
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 1: You called, the Standford Law School called and said they

1309
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 1: wished to defend me in this exactly what you predicted exactly.

1310
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 1: And uh when I take called back and say, all right,

1311
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 1: well we will going to let this go. Well that's

1312
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 1: what I thought was gonna be was gonna happen. I

1313
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 1: just let to sit there and let it sit there.

1314
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, I could pursue this, I

1315
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 1: really could. And I have the right to write this

1316
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: is a first clear, first Amendment and I'm gonna win

1317
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: like whatever, and there's a principle here. But you should

1318
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 1: reissue that shirt. I could, I should. This would be

1319
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: a right time to do because he's not suing anyone now, Um,

1320
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 1: and I didn't. I didn't pursue it, and I look

1321
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 1: back on it. I think I made the right choice,

1322
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. But here's why. I thought, do

1323
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 1: I really want to have this thing that I become

1324
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:47,439
Speaker 1: a person who's who's litigated for even if I'm right

1325
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: that I'm litigated for using the word hope? And I

1326
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: was like, is that really something I want to defend?

1327
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 1: Um on a on a instant constitutional basis, I for

1328
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:01,640
Speaker 1: sure do, But on a like personal level, is that

1329
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 1: something that I really was a very mature decision. So

1330
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 1: I decided not to do it, even though I know

1331
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: him in the right. That's hilarious. That worked out well. Um,

1332
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 1: what sort of advice would you give a millennial, a

1333
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 1: recent graduate who was thinking about going into filling the

1334
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:24,200
Speaker 1: blink content production, web design, media writing. What what advice

1335
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:28,920
Speaker 1: would you give someone right out of college? Um? I

1336
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 1: have to give advice that's kind of based on my

1337
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 1: experience again and that that is again kind of growing

1338
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 1: up in the middle of nowhere. And if I went

1339
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: back and gave like a graduation speech to kids and

1340
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:41,599
Speaker 1: where I grew up, I would try as hard as

1341
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: I possibly could to convey to them this really simple

1342
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 1: notion that I think most millennials feel but probably don't

1343
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 1: feel where I grew up, and that is you really

1344
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 1: can do anything. It sounds so simple and kind of

1345
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 1: almost tried to say you can do anything, right, But

1346
01:19:57,479 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 1: it's not a thing I believed, no one. There's no

1347
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: way I thought I could do anything, and it wasn't.

1348
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 1: It wasn't until deep into college that I thought I

1349
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 1: could do anything. And there's all stain. That's my first

1350
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 1: thing I would say is like you really, it doesn't matter.

1351
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:12,240
Speaker 1: You can do anything. And the second thing is whatever

1352
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: your interest is, you will find a job or a

1353
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 1: career or perhaps fortune around the thing. Like I'll give

1354
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 1: a quick example. One of my my favorite areas of

1355
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 1: interest in college was linguistics, and because it's a mix

1356
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:31,120
Speaker 1: of science and art and it was like kind of

1357
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 1: like the perfect thing for me, and I didn't pursue

1358
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 1: it professionally because of that. No one really has careers

1359
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,040
Speaker 1: in linguists. We're gonna be speech pathologist where you're gonna

1360
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:46,680
Speaker 1: be today? Yeah, Google is so deeply in need of

1361
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 1: this linguists. Every tech company is, and I think that

1362
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have foreseen that then. And uh, and I

1363
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 1: think that you can name almost anything. I think that

1364
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 1: you'll find that eventually there will be an emerging you

1365
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 1: can own that category. And um, that's like a that

1366
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:07,600
Speaker 1: sounds like a idealistic early Internet person like, because there

1367
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 1: was a lot of rhetoric around the early Internet that

1368
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 1: if you if you you care about ti vos, you

1369
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: can write a blog about tvOS and it will be successful. Uh.

1370
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 1: And it was like for years it was, um, you

1371
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 1: could whatever your passion is, you will find an audience

1372
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 1: for it. I think it's still true though. It's like

1373
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 1: one of the pieces of the um utopian Internet that

1374
01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 1: I still believe in is that, like, if you're passionate

1375
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:36,439
Speaker 1: about something, you will find people an audience for it,

1376
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:38,640
Speaker 1: and you can be known as the expert in that thing.

1377
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 1: And our final question, what is it that you know

1378
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 1: about writing and content production today that you wish you

1379
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 1: knew twenty years ago when you were first starting. Um,

1380
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 1: I wish I wish I would have bought Apple, and

1381
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: I wish I would have taken up Seriously, all right,

1382
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: that's a fair enough point. We have been speaking with

1383
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:12,200
Speaker 1: Rex Sregats. He is the author of the Encyclopedia of Misinformation.

1384
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and look up

1385
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:19,960
Speaker 1: an Intra down an Inch on Apple iTunes, Bloomberg dot com, Stitcher, overcast,

1386
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 1: wherever your finer podcasts are sold, and you could see

1387
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 1: any of the other two hundred or so uh such

1388
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 1: podcasts that we've done previously. We love your comments, feedback

1389
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:33,760
Speaker 1: and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at

1390
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I did

1391
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 1: not thank our crack staff who helps put these podcasts

1392
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 1: together each week. Medina Parwana is my producer. Taylor Riggs

1393
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: is our booker, Attica val Brun is our project manager.

1394
01:22:49,240 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is my head of research. I'm Barry Ritolts.

1395
01:22:53,439 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio show.