WEBVTT - Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not a mysterious person like I really wish I was.

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<v Speaker 2>I've tried to be a cool girl. I can't if

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<v Speaker 2>I ask, not me, and I'm just like.

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<v Speaker 1>Boo for as long as she can remember. Author in

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<v Speaker 1>mental health blogger Clear Eastam has found social situations to

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<v Speaker 1>be surprisingly stressful.

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<v Speaker 2>What if I say something stupid? What if I make

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<v Speaker 2>a fool of myself? What if I'm boring? What if

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<v Speaker 2>nobody wants to talk to me? There's always a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of what if questions mentally, and they are almost immediately

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<v Speaker 2>accompanied by the emotional response, which is more anxiety, stress, fear,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the physical symptoms such as pounding heart. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I might blush or sort of general feeling of unease.

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<v Speaker 2>I tend to get like I like, I want to bolt.

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<v Speaker 1>And the conversational norm that makes clear want to bolt

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<v Speaker 1>the most is small talk.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think of the weather? What's going on?

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<v Speaker 1>You're staying busy? Man? I can't believe it's already Wednesday.

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<v Speaker 1>How is the traffic on your drive?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? My god, I don't know if it's to say.

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<v Speaker 2>When you were in the UK, people love to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about how they arrived at a venue, what road did

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<v Speaker 2>you take?

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<v Speaker 3>Like?

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<v Speaker 2>I have no idea, mate, I just got it.

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<v Speaker 1>And don't get clear started on this all too common

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<v Speaker 1>conversation starter. How are you?

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<v Speaker 2>It just feels like too light of a question to

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<v Speaker 2>answer because you think I know the response is I'm fine?

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<v Speaker 2>How are you? For fifty percent of the time, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not fine? And I don't feel like answering that question

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<v Speaker 2>inauthentically because it's a lie.

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<v Speaker 1>Claire has long dreaded spending time in small talk conversational autopilot.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know how long it was supposed to last.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what I was supposed to say because

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not interested in the weather. It's like it's raining again.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh. We can't go anywhere with this unless you

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<v Speaker 2>take us somewhere, and I'm stressed that you might not

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<v Speaker 2>do that, and then the responsibility will fall on me,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't know what to say apart from you know,

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<v Speaker 2>rain is wet, as.

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<v Speaker 1>You can hear. Claire does have some not so small

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<v Speaker 1>feelings about small talk, but I'm guessing that at least

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<v Speaker 1>some of you listening right now can relate talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the weather for the fifth time in a single afternoon

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<v Speaker 1>being asked how you're doing by someone who doesn't even

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<v Speaker 1>listen to your response. Superficial interactions like these can feel painful.

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<v Speaker 1>They can cause you to second guess if you're doing

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<v Speaker 1>the whole social connection thing right or if it's even

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<v Speaker 1>worth it, Which leads me to today's happiness hot take

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<v Speaker 1>you ready here it is we should completely get rid

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<v Speaker 1>of small talk. I'm talking zero tolerance. We need to

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<v Speaker 1>fully rethink our usual approach to conversational autopilot. Why kill

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<v Speaker 1>off small talk, you ask?

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<v Speaker 3>Well?

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<v Speaker 1>Research shows that small talk has an opportunity cost that

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<v Speaker 1>our minds don't realize. All those how's the weathers? And

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<v Speaker 1>is it Friday? Yets cause us to miss out on

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<v Speaker 1>a happier way that we could be spending our social interactions,

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<v Speaker 1>a type of conversation that feels less stressful, more engaging,

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<v Speaker 1>and way way more fun. Our minds are constantly telling

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<v Speaker 1>us what to you to be happy. But what if

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<v Speaker 1>our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying

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<v Speaker 1>to us, leading us away from what will really make

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<v Speaker 1>us happy. The good news is that the science of

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<v Speaker 1>the mind can point us all back in the right direction.

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to the Happiness Lab with me doctor Laurie Santos.

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<v Speaker 2>A would self scam people almost like the terminator, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're like looking for signs the person to alignments, persons board,

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<v Speaker 2>and I would view all social insurrections as a success

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<v Speaker 2>or a failure.

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<v Speaker 1>Growing up, author and blogger Claire Eastam often thought of

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<v Speaker 1>social situations as if she was going into battle. Take

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<v Speaker 1>family get togethers. Some kids love seeing their relatives, but

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<v Speaker 1>Claire heated family celebrations so much that she'd regularly get

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<v Speaker 1>stomach aches on the car ride over. She'd spend days

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<v Speaker 1>before these upcoming events worried about conversations she'd be forced

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<v Speaker 1>to endure.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh Joe saw got this promotion, and so and so

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<v Speaker 2>has got this many grades at school, and no, like

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<v Speaker 2>why are we having these chaps?

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<v Speaker 1>But there was one family member that young Claire did

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<v Speaker 1>feel comfortable around, someone who seemed to detest a small

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<v Speaker 1>talk just as much as she did, her grandmother, Evelyn Eastam.

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<v Speaker 2>My grandma used to just sit in the kitchen chains

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<v Speaker 2>milking cigarettes, and so I was slacking the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>the family off because she did not perform for anybody.

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<v Speaker 1>Grandma Eastam or her conversational authenticity with pride, What do

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<v Speaker 1>you really.

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<v Speaker 2>Think of your uncle Paul, Does I tell you what

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<v Speaker 2>I think? He thinks? He's flashy with his BMW Well.

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<v Speaker 1>Claire's grandmother also found a way to make conversation more fun,

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<v Speaker 1>often by adding a bit of ridiculousness.

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<v Speaker 2>She managed to convince me that she wrote The Wizard

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<v Speaker 2>of Alls but she sat in Wigan in the UK.

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<v Speaker 2>I believed this, but she told me like half the

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<v Speaker 2>story around this dining room table, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>this is amazing, Grandma. And she would courage to me

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<v Speaker 2>and she's like, well, you gonna write a story, Like

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<v Speaker 2>what would you write it about? And what characters would

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<v Speaker 2>you have? And then she'd like, we should write it

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<v Speaker 2>down and then next time I see you, you could

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<v Speaker 2>tell me about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Evelyn's off the wild questions and authentic curiosity helped young

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<v Speaker 1>Claire feel more comfortable during family gatherings, but as Claire

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<v Speaker 1>got older, safe social spaces like these felt rarer and rarer.

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<v Speaker 2>When I have to perform, that's what I call it,

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<v Speaker 2>the how did you get here? It's more stressful for

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<v Speaker 2>me because I feel like I'm swallowing part of my

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<v Speaker 2>personality to fit in. And then all I do is

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<v Speaker 2>clockwatch like, how long do I have to stay? How

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<v Speaker 2>long am I here fort? Because I'm getting no enjoyment

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<v Speaker 2>out of this and it's just making me feel more anxious.

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<v Speaker 1>Whenever Claire was forced to be social, she found herself

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<v Speaker 1>seeking out allies like Evelyn.

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<v Speaker 2>I would just try and find these people who would

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<v Speaker 2>make me feel like I could be myself, really, like,

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<v Speaker 2>who's not playing the game? You marveless?

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<v Speaker 1>But that got harder after Claire graduated and entered the

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<v Speaker 1>working world. Securing a position at one of the most

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<v Speaker 1>prestigious publishing houses in London was huge for Claire's blossoming career,

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<v Speaker 1>but it met regularly facing the sorts of social battlegrounds

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<v Speaker 1>that she feared the most.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a lot of people here I

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<v Speaker 2>potentially have to perform too. I can't control this environment.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't control what's going to happen next.

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<v Speaker 1>To gain back a sense of control, Claire developed a

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<v Speaker 1>whole host of not so healthy coping strategies. Behavior is

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<v Speaker 1>like extreme people pleasing.

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<v Speaker 2>My friend said this about me. Actually, she said, you

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<v Speaker 2>could get hit by a boss and you know your

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<v Speaker 2>arm would come off and you're black. Oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so sorry. I'll just pick it up and walk off.

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<v Speaker 1>And avoiding potential small talk situations to the point of

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<v Speaker 1>bladder discomfort.

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<v Speaker 2>I would sometimes I can go to loeb because I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want to have to walk past so many people's desks.

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<v Speaker 1>Claire even found herself turning to the unhealthy standby that

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<v Speaker 1>many of us use in social situations.

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<v Speaker 2>Alcohol was a massive crupch. He was a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>sedating how I was feeling.

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<v Speaker 1>But maladaptive coping strategies like these can only take a

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<v Speaker 1>person so far, and one fateful day, Claire had what

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<v Speaker 1>she likes to call a breakthrough breakdown.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a big acquisitions meeting and I had what

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<v Speaker 2>I now know was a paddic attack. I didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>what it was. Then I thought it was a stroke.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, okay, so I'm going to die, but I

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<v Speaker 2>really don't want to make a scene. For some bizarre reason,

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<v Speaker 2>my brain told me that in order to get out

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<v Speaker 2>of the situation, I should stand up very slowly for

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<v Speaker 2>everyone and say in a posh voice, which I don't have.

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<v Speaker 2>I had the Neror verse, and I must leave once

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<v Speaker 2>and then leg it out of the room.

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<v Speaker 1>Claire then continued legging it into the elevator and out

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<v Speaker 1>of the building and then miles away down the street.

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<v Speaker 2>I did not stop running because something had snapped and

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<v Speaker 2>I did not know what to do. So yeah, there

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<v Speaker 2>was no sort of sweeping that one under the rock.

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<v Speaker 1>The next morning, Claire went to her doctor. She explained

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<v Speaker 1>how anxious she'd been at work for months, and how

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<v Speaker 1>sitting through that big meeting seemed to trigger a medical emergency.

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<v Speaker 2>It was diagnosed in under thirty seconds, like this is

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<v Speaker 2>tact book, Social Anxiety Disorder and ye to punic attack

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<v Speaker 2>and a big pop me didn't want to accept.

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<v Speaker 1>It at first. Claire was pretty self critical about her diagnosis,

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<v Speaker 1>but with time she developed more self compassion. Eventually, she

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to share that compassion with others who are going

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<v Speaker 1>through similar mental health challenges, so in twenty thirteen, she

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<v Speaker 1>started a blog entitled We're All Mad Here and which

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<v Speaker 1>she shared her experiences with social anxiety as well as

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<v Speaker 1>lots of relatable advice. Thousands upon thousands of subscribers signed up.

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<v Speaker 1>The blog quickly turned into a book with the same name,

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<v Speaker 1>which sold out of its first print in just five days.

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<v Speaker 1>Claire went from denying her disorder to becoming an international

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<v Speaker 1>expert social anxiety.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of it comes from repressing who you are.

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<v Speaker 2>I think of social anxiety as you being like, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>in here, I'm in here, let me out, let me out.

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<v Speaker 2>Why are you punishing me?

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<v Speaker 1>But Claire was about to enter a period where that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of punishment, as she called it, would die down

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, because for Claire and pretty much every other

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<v Speaker 1>human on the planet, social interaction as usual was about

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<v Speaker 1>to undergo a massive change.

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<v Speaker 2>In lockdown, the world shut down on the conversations that

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<v Speaker 2>we had did tend to be more meaningful. It's funny

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<v Speaker 2>he wouldn't say, how are you, because it's just like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm still stuck in my house, same as yesterday. Nothing

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<v Speaker 2>has changed. What else do you want to talk about?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we have to be more creative.

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<v Speaker 1>Claire thrived and the unique moment that was twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>in the midst of a global pandemic, people were feeling vulnerable,

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<v Speaker 1>so they tended to drop the usual pleasantries in order

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<v Speaker 1>to connect a bit more deeply. Conversations were taking place

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<v Speaker 1>on a computer screen, but Claire still found them to

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<v Speaker 1>be more real, more like the ones she remembered with

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<v Speaker 1>her grandmother Evelyn back in the day. Claire hoped that

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<v Speaker 1>the shift in small talk would last once everybody went

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<v Speaker 1>back into the real world.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll never forget I went into a Costa coffee shop

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<v Speaker 2>was one of my first interactions and locked eyes with someone,

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<v Speaker 2>and she's sort of like, how are you house weather,

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<v Speaker 2>blah blah blah. I was just sort of like, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't remember what to say.

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<v Speaker 1>And Claire wasn't alone. Many people reported a drop in

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<v Speaker 1>their social skills post COVID, which meant that our surface

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<v Speaker 1>level small talk interactions became even more strained than they

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<v Speaker 1>were before. After months of more authentic, seeming conversations, Claire's

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<v Speaker 1>return to the world of small talk felt like torture.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is when Claire made the decision that there

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<v Speaker 1>had to be another way.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm sick of like being so horrible to myself

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<v Speaker 2>about this. Right, We're deliberately not going to do it now.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going into another social situation thinking, make sure

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<v Speaker 2>you seem normal for the first couple of minutes, so

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<v Speaker 2>then you can be yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>What if Claire thought I just got rid of small

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<v Speaker 1>talk altogether. What if for one entire month I chose

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<v Speaker 1>to start every new conversation by embodying my inner Evelyn

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<v Speaker 1>and just getting straight into the weird, authentic stuff that

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<v Speaker 1>I'd have more fun talking about a thought.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's do it. Let's do it as a full experiment,

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<v Speaker 2>and I really did have faith that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people would respond positively.

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<v Speaker 1>How do conversations go when you force your partners to

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<v Speaker 1>go deeper, when you completely reject the usual pleasantries for

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<v Speaker 1>an entire month. Well we'll find out when the Happiness

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<v Speaker 1>Lab returns from the break.

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<v Speaker 3>I went in totally nervous. I had never been sweating

0:11:32.276 --> 0:11:34.036
<v Speaker 3>bullets before I talk as much as I had with

0:11:34.076 --> 0:11:37.196
<v Speaker 3>this one, Because when you run a live demonstration in

0:11:37.276 --> 0:11:40.036
<v Speaker 3>front of an audience, if it doesn't work for some reason,

0:11:40.156 --> 0:11:41.196
<v Speaker 3>you are really sunk.

0:11:41.596 --> 0:11:44.556
<v Speaker 1>This is my friend and Happiness Lab regular, the psychologist

0:11:44.716 --> 0:11:47.436
<v Speaker 1>Nick Epley. He's telling me about the first time he

0:11:47.556 --> 0:11:49.556
<v Speaker 1>tried out what has now become one of his most

0:11:49.636 --> 0:11:51.676
<v Speaker 1>famous social connection interventions.

0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:54.516
<v Speaker 3>I was out in Connecticut speaking at a financial decision

0:11:54.596 --> 0:11:57.116
<v Speaker 3>making conference that I invited to come and speak at.

0:11:57.636 --> 0:12:00.876
<v Speaker 3>And we've got a room of maybe fifty sixty people

0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:04.836
<v Speaker 3>sitting there. These are all high level executives running pension funds.

0:12:04.876 --> 0:12:07.196
<v Speaker 3>I mean, these are serious folks. I was really the

0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:10.636
<v Speaker 3>only one not wearing a suit that day, and they

0:12:10.676 --> 0:12:14.036
<v Speaker 3>had not really anticipated that they'd be bringing somebody in

0:12:14.196 --> 0:12:16.716
<v Speaker 3>to do touchy feely sort of things. But that's what

0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:17.796
<v Speaker 3>I was there to do.

0:12:18.476 --> 0:12:21.436
<v Speaker 1>Nick studies the psychological effects of engaging in the sorts

0:12:21.436 --> 0:12:24.276
<v Speaker 1>of social situations that we assume will make us feel awkward.

0:12:24.796 --> 0:12:27.956
<v Speaker 1>In previous Happiness Lab episodes, Nick has shared his research

0:12:28.036 --> 0:12:30.476
<v Speaker 1>on what happens when people strike up a conversation with

0:12:30.556 --> 0:12:33.956
<v Speaker 1>a stranger, or sincerely expressed gratitude to someone they have

0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:36.596
<v Speaker 1>it spoken to for a while, or ask a random

0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:39.156
<v Speaker 1>person on the street for help with a vulnerable situation.

0:12:39.916 --> 0:12:42.756
<v Speaker 1>In all of these cases, Nick finds that people's interactions

0:12:42.836 --> 0:12:46.396
<v Speaker 1>feel much less awkward and much more enjoyable than they think.

0:12:47.116 --> 0:12:49.676
<v Speaker 1>But Nick was also interested in what happens when we

0:12:49.876 --> 0:12:53.916
<v Speaker 1>ratchet up the awkwardness of conversations even higher. What happens

0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:57.116
<v Speaker 1>when we channel are inner, evolent eastoms and chat with

0:12:57.196 --> 0:13:01.916
<v Speaker 1>complete strangers about the most vulnerable topics possible. Nick was

0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:04.476
<v Speaker 1>going to find out using the titans of the financial

0:13:04.556 --> 0:13:06.076
<v Speaker 1>industry as his guinea pigs.

0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:09.756
<v Speaker 3>We start talking, I present some of my early research,

0:13:09.836 --> 0:13:11.036
<v Speaker 3>and then I tell him what we're going to do

0:13:11.116 --> 0:13:12.916
<v Speaker 3>that in a minute. We are going to put up

0:13:12.956 --> 0:13:15.236
<v Speaker 3>some questions on the screen, and I'm going to pair

0:13:15.276 --> 0:13:17.316
<v Speaker 3>you up with another person and you're going to have

0:13:17.356 --> 0:13:19.196
<v Speaker 3>a conversation with him about these questions.

0:13:19.396 --> 0:13:21.316
<v Speaker 1>But the questions Nick put up on the screen, we're

0:13:21.476 --> 0:13:24.396
<v Speaker 1>part of the usual small talk script, things like where

0:13:24.436 --> 0:13:27.196
<v Speaker 1>do you work? Or how is your commute? His questions

0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:30.076
<v Speaker 1>included what is one of the most embarrassing moments of

0:13:30.116 --> 0:13:32.836
<v Speaker 1>your life? If you could undo one of the mistakes

0:13:32.876 --> 0:13:34.796
<v Speaker 1>you've made in life, what would it be and why?

0:13:35.476 --> 0:13:38.436
<v Speaker 1>And can you describe the last time you cried in

0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:39.436
<v Speaker 1>front of another person.

0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:42.236
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's not the most energetic room to begin with,

0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:46.356
<v Speaker 3>but you could just feel the energy just drain right out.

0:13:46.436 --> 0:13:48.036
<v Speaker 3>There was a guy sitting right in front of me.

0:13:48.116 --> 0:13:50.436
<v Speaker 3>I will never forget it. As soon as I put

0:13:50.516 --> 0:13:53.436
<v Speaker 3>up this question, everybody kind of grown. But he yelled out,

0:13:53.596 --> 0:13:57.236
<v Speaker 3>oh expletive, yeah, Oh I don't know if I'm alzed.

0:13:57.836 --> 0:13:59.076
<v Speaker 3>Oh shit, is what he said.

0:13:59.796 --> 0:14:02.756
<v Speaker 1>But Nick forged on. He began the exercise by having

0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:05.996
<v Speaker 1>the executives make some predictions on a scale of one

0:14:06.076 --> 0:14:07.676
<v Speaker 1>to ten. How much do you think you're going to

0:14:07.836 --> 0:14:11.236
<v Speaker 1>enjoy this vulnerable converse. How connected will you feel to

0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:14.996
<v Speaker 1>the person afterwards, and how awkward will you feel? After

0:14:15.076 --> 0:14:18.356
<v Speaker 1>completing their surveys, the businessmen paired up and got chatting.

0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:22.436
<v Speaker 3>Started a little bit slow at first, but then things

0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.996
<v Speaker 3>just started to shift, like the room just started to turn.

0:14:26.516 --> 0:14:29.236
<v Speaker 3>It got lively by about fifteen minutes, which is when

0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:31.076
<v Speaker 3>I thought I was going to bring them back. They

0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:33.756
<v Speaker 3>were going so strong in their conversations. I couldn't figure

0:14:33.756 --> 0:14:34.956
<v Speaker 3>out how to get him back, right, Like I had

0:14:34.996 --> 0:14:37.916
<v Speaker 3>never faced this before. I'm saying, all right, clapping my hands,

0:14:37.956 --> 0:14:40.316
<v Speaker 3>time to come back. Eventually, I get the microphone and

0:14:40.316 --> 0:14:42.236
<v Speaker 3>I got to do a countdown from five, which I

0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:45.236
<v Speaker 3>learned from my kids kindergarten teacher works. And then finally

0:14:45.316 --> 0:14:47.836
<v Speaker 3>got them back. And then I had them report how

0:14:48.156 --> 0:14:51.196
<v Speaker 3>the conversations had actually gone, how awkward they actually were,

0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:54.756
<v Speaker 3>how much they actually enjoyed the conversation. The gaps were stunning.

0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:58.996
<v Speaker 1>The execs predicted that their conversations would feel mediocre at best,

0:14:59.396 --> 0:15:02.196
<v Speaker 1>that they wouldn't enjoy the exercise all that much because

0:15:02.196 --> 0:15:05.516
<v Speaker 1>they'd be feeling awkward the entire time. But after the

0:15:05.556 --> 0:15:09.836
<v Speaker 1>exercise was complete, they reported that their actual conversation were

0:15:09.916 --> 0:15:12.876
<v Speaker 1>far less awkward and far more delightful than they expected

0:15:13.556 --> 0:15:17.396
<v Speaker 1>to their absolute shock. Ditching the usual small talk felt great.

0:15:17.636 --> 0:15:19.076
<v Speaker 3>You didn't even need to look at the data. You

0:15:19.116 --> 0:15:21.436
<v Speaker 3>could feel it in the room. These people who had

0:15:21.476 --> 0:15:23.876
<v Speaker 3>started out very nervous, you could see them in their

0:15:23.916 --> 0:15:26.036
<v Speaker 3>conversations that they had just come to life. I remember

0:15:26.076 --> 0:15:28.836
<v Speaker 3>one couple over on the left, one pair they hugged

0:15:28.836 --> 0:15:32.076
<v Speaker 3>at the end, which like, these are not huggers. Right,

0:15:32.436 --> 0:15:34.076
<v Speaker 3>there was a guy up in the way back who

0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:37.236
<v Speaker 3>was tearing up. Everybody was shaking hands when they were done.

0:15:37.356 --> 0:15:39.716
<v Speaker 3>You didn't need to see the data. You could see

0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:41.636
<v Speaker 3>the data right in front of you.

0:15:42.916 --> 0:15:45.996
<v Speaker 1>Psychologists have known about the connective power of deep conversations

0:15:46.116 --> 0:15:49.476
<v Speaker 1>like nicks for some time. Consider, for example, what's known

0:15:49.556 --> 0:15:53.156
<v Speaker 1>as the fast friends procedure. This now famous technique was

0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:56.476
<v Speaker 1>first developed back in the nineties by psychologists Art and

0:15:56.556 --> 0:15:59.316
<v Speaker 1>Elaine Aaron, a married couple who met and fell in

0:15:59.396 --> 0:16:02.596
<v Speaker 1>love rather quickly when they were young researchers, an experience

0:16:02.636 --> 0:16:05.036
<v Speaker 1>that got the pair interested and the factors that caused

0:16:05.076 --> 0:16:08.476
<v Speaker 1>people to connect rapidly. Here's how the Erin's fast friends

0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:12.036
<v Speaker 1>procedure were works two strangers are paired together and asked

0:16:12.076 --> 0:16:14.756
<v Speaker 1>to discuss a series of thirty six deep questions with

0:16:14.836 --> 0:16:18.756
<v Speaker 1>one another. The questions start off relatively casually, things like

0:16:18.796 --> 0:16:20.916
<v Speaker 1>would you like to be famous? Or if you could

0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:22.916
<v Speaker 1>pick anyone in the world, who would you want as

0:16:22.916 --> 0:16:27.116
<v Speaker 1>a dinner guest, But as conversation continues, the strangers start

0:16:27.156 --> 0:16:30.636
<v Speaker 1>going even deeper, asking each other questions more like the

0:16:30.716 --> 0:16:33.956
<v Speaker 1>ones Nick used with his executives, things like how do

0:16:33.996 --> 0:16:36.716
<v Speaker 1>you feel about your relationship with your mother? And if

0:16:36.756 --> 0:16:39.276
<v Speaker 1>you die tonight, what would you most regret not having

0:16:39.356 --> 0:16:40.316
<v Speaker 1>told someone right.

0:16:40.396 --> 0:16:43.756
<v Speaker 3>They start from pretty shallow, and then they slowly escalate,

0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:46.716
<v Speaker 3>like a seven forty seven jet taken off the runway,

0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:47.796
<v Speaker 3>slow and steady.

0:16:48.076 --> 0:16:51.196
<v Speaker 1>The errands correctly hypothesize that this slow increase of mutual

0:16:51.276 --> 0:16:54.676
<v Speaker 1>disclosure would cause people to feel more connected, But the

0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:59.156
<v Speaker 1>researchers also assumed the other variables would matter for connection factors,

0:16:59.236 --> 0:17:02.196
<v Speaker 1>like how interested people were in doing the procedure or

0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:04.756
<v Speaker 1>how similar people's answers were to one another.

0:17:04.676 --> 0:17:07.476
<v Speaker 3>And those things just did not at all. The only

0:17:07.596 --> 0:17:10.356
<v Speaker 3>thing that mattered is what we are talking about, And

0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:12.636
<v Speaker 3>at the end of all of those questions that people

0:17:12.716 --> 0:17:15.756
<v Speaker 3>who had talked about more meaningful things. They felt much

0:17:15.916 --> 0:17:16.596
<v Speaker 3>much closer.

0:17:16.916 --> 0:17:19.236
<v Speaker 1>Nick and his colleagues have found similar effects using this

0:17:19.356 --> 0:17:23.196
<v Speaker 1>shorter and more extreme version of the fast friends procedure.

0:17:23.476 --> 0:17:26.116
<v Speaker 3>We don't take the seven forty seven off the runway approach.

0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:28.516
<v Speaker 3>We're more like, hop into a helicopter right and you're

0:17:28.516 --> 0:17:32.436
<v Speaker 3>going to go deep right away. And that looks like

0:17:32.556 --> 0:17:35.436
<v Speaker 3>it works. I have had people say this was the

0:17:35.476 --> 0:17:39.556
<v Speaker 3>best conversation I have ever had. I've had people in

0:17:39.676 --> 0:17:42.956
<v Speaker 3>these sessions tell me that they told somebody something they

0:17:42.996 --> 0:17:44.676
<v Speaker 3>have never told somebody else before.

0:17:45.556 --> 0:17:49.396
<v Speaker 1>Across thousands of participants, both in laboratory settings and at

0:17:49.436 --> 0:17:52.916
<v Speaker 1>real life events like that financial conference, Nick's results are

0:17:52.956 --> 0:17:57.276
<v Speaker 1>nearly always the same. Deep conversations consistently make us feel

0:17:57.276 --> 0:18:00.036
<v Speaker 1>happier and more connected than polite small talk does.

0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:02.716
<v Speaker 3>What's interesting to me is that you can have those

0:18:02.796 --> 0:18:07.316
<v Speaker 3>conversations almost any day that you want to, if you

0:18:07.436 --> 0:18:08.076
<v Speaker 3>choose to do it.

0:18:08.516 --> 0:18:10.596
<v Speaker 1>But it seems like most of the time we don't

0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:13.396
<v Speaker 1>choose to do it. Nick says, we often get stuck

0:18:13.476 --> 0:18:16.316
<v Speaker 1>in the small talk mode that socially anxious blogger Clear

0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:17.916
<v Speaker 1>Eastam detested so much.

0:18:18.316 --> 0:18:20.316
<v Speaker 3>So we talk about current events, we talk about what

0:18:20.396 --> 0:18:22.316
<v Speaker 3>you do for a living, right, but not do you

0:18:22.396 --> 0:18:24.476
<v Speaker 3>love what you do for a living? Is this your

0:18:24.556 --> 0:18:28.396
<v Speaker 3>dream job? Small talk is all the outside stuff. Deep

0:18:28.516 --> 0:18:31.556
<v Speaker 3>talk is going into where your heart sits, to where

0:18:31.596 --> 0:18:34.596
<v Speaker 3>your beliefs sit, to where your values sit, to where

0:18:34.636 --> 0:18:37.316
<v Speaker 3>what's really important to you sits. It means going deeper

0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:40.556
<v Speaker 3>inside somebody's mind, away from the superficial stuff to something deep.

0:18:40.836 --> 0:18:43.196
<v Speaker 3>And you can fail at small talk if you don't

0:18:43.196 --> 0:18:45.916
<v Speaker 3>feel up on current events, or you don't know something

0:18:45.956 --> 0:18:48.556
<v Speaker 3>about somebody's job, or you didn't go out and see

0:18:48.556 --> 0:18:51.716
<v Speaker 3>this movie that somebody else saw, or you don't watch sports. Right,

0:18:51.996 --> 0:18:54.796
<v Speaker 3>you can fail on that stuff because it's about news

0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:57.076
<v Speaker 3>and things. I think is actually harder to fail at

0:18:57.116 --> 0:18:57.476
<v Speaker 3>deep talk.

0:18:57.676 --> 0:18:59.996
<v Speaker 1>So these deep conversations make us feel really good. But

0:19:00.116 --> 0:19:02.436
<v Speaker 1>how often are people having these deep conversations?

0:19:03.196 --> 0:19:05.236
<v Speaker 3>Well, certainly not as often as they would want to.

0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:08.196
<v Speaker 3>So at the end of these conversations we ask people

0:19:09.356 --> 0:19:12.156
<v Speaker 3>how deep was this conversation? They say, you really deep?

0:19:12.756 --> 0:19:14.676
<v Speaker 3>So this is, you know, on a zero to ten scale,

0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:17.236
<v Speaker 3>we're talking like a seven. That's how deep this was.

0:19:17.476 --> 0:19:19.636
<v Speaker 3>And we ask them how deep are the conversations you

0:19:19.676 --> 0:19:22.836
<v Speaker 3>typically have? They say, like A two not very deep

0:19:22.876 --> 0:19:25.236
<v Speaker 3>at all. And then we ask them how deep are

0:19:25.236 --> 0:19:29.476
<v Speaker 3>the conversations you would like to be having, and they say, well,

0:19:30.076 --> 0:19:32.756
<v Speaker 3>maybe not quite as deep as that one on average,

0:19:32.796 --> 0:19:34.036
<v Speaker 3>and we don't have to talk about the last time

0:19:34.076 --> 0:19:36.076
<v Speaker 3>we cried in front of another person all the time.

0:19:36.396 --> 0:19:39.156
<v Speaker 3>But they say more like a sixth way deeper than

0:19:39.196 --> 0:19:42.716
<v Speaker 3>the conversations they're typically having. And that's what's so interesting

0:19:43.076 --> 0:19:45.916
<v Speaker 3>to me as a psychologist. If these are the conversations

0:19:45.956 --> 0:19:48.556
<v Speaker 3>you want to be having, and you enjoy them a lot,

0:19:48.716 --> 0:19:49.996
<v Speaker 3>why are you not having them?

0:19:51.316 --> 0:19:53.356
<v Speaker 1>The first reason Nick says is that we have some

0:19:53.676 --> 0:19:58.156
<v Speaker 1>unusually miscalibrated beliefs about how good we'll be at conversation. Generally,

0:19:58.836 --> 0:20:00.916
<v Speaker 1>we tend to assume we'll be pretty bad at it,

0:20:01.356 --> 0:20:03.516
<v Speaker 1>which is a result that as a psychologist I find

0:20:03.556 --> 0:20:07.036
<v Speaker 1>it be a very weird effect. Usually, when researchers ask

0:20:07.116 --> 0:20:09.356
<v Speaker 1>people how good they are at some desirable t trait

0:20:09.476 --> 0:20:13.156
<v Speaker 1>relative to the average person, they tend to overestimate that ability.

0:20:13.636 --> 0:20:16.996
<v Speaker 1>They show what social psychologists call the above average effect.

0:20:17.676 --> 0:20:20.556
<v Speaker 1>For example, one study found that around seventy percent of

0:20:20.636 --> 0:20:24.716
<v Speaker 1>people think they're above average at performing their job, cooking, reading,

0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:28.756
<v Speaker 1>and even taking care of personal hygiene. Of course, seventy

0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:31.476
<v Speaker 1>percent of people being above average and all these traits

0:20:31.636 --> 0:20:35.236
<v Speaker 1>is statistically impossible, but people don't seem to realize this,

0:20:36.036 --> 0:20:39.676
<v Speaker 1>at least for most desirable traits. But when you ask

0:20:39.796 --> 0:20:41.836
<v Speaker 1>the same people how good they are relative to the

0:20:41.916 --> 0:20:46.196
<v Speaker 1>average person at conversation, you find the exact opposite effect.

0:20:46.436 --> 0:20:51.516
<v Speaker 3>We're above average on all these things leadership, ability and driving, yes,

0:20:52.036 --> 0:20:54.236
<v Speaker 3>the ability to get along well with others, right, wear

0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:56.116
<v Speaker 3>all stars at all these other things. But when it

0:20:56.196 --> 0:20:58.596
<v Speaker 3>comes to talking to people, the thing we do so

0:20:58.756 --> 0:21:01.436
<v Speaker 3>much of, people think they're terrible. So why does conversation

0:21:01.596 --> 0:21:04.356
<v Speaker 3>give us so much self doubt? So part of it,

0:21:04.436 --> 0:21:07.876
<v Speaker 3>I think comes from failing to understand reciprocity. The norm

0:21:07.916 --> 0:21:13.676
<v Speaker 3>of reciprocity is the dominant social behavioral norm on this planet.

0:21:14.116 --> 0:21:16.236
<v Speaker 3>So if I smile to you, what do you do

0:21:16.356 --> 0:21:18.356
<v Speaker 3>back to me? You smile back. If I don't smile

0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:19.956
<v Speaker 3>at you, what do you do to me? You don't smile?

0:21:20.196 --> 0:21:22.076
<v Speaker 3>I say hi? Do you say hi back to me? Right?

0:21:22.316 --> 0:21:24.036
<v Speaker 3>If you want somebody to be friendly with you, be

0:21:24.156 --> 0:21:27.036
<v Speaker 3>friendly with him first. But people don't seem to appreciate

0:21:27.156 --> 0:21:29.156
<v Speaker 3>the power of that norm. We don't seem to realize

0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:31.916
<v Speaker 3>if you open up to somebody else in conversation first,

0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:34.516
<v Speaker 3>they tend to open up to you. In return, you've

0:21:34.556 --> 0:21:37.436
<v Speaker 3>signaled that you trust them, that you're interested in them,

0:21:37.756 --> 0:21:39.476
<v Speaker 3>and they then take an interest in you.

0:21:39.876 --> 0:21:42.836
<v Speaker 1>So much of our conversation pessimism stems from the fact

0:21:42.956 --> 0:21:46.316
<v Speaker 1>that we don't realize that our partners will happily reciprocate

0:21:46.396 --> 0:21:48.756
<v Speaker 1>the work that we put into trying to connect with them.

0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:52.396
<v Speaker 3>We think we're paddling upstream a canoe with one paddle,

0:21:52.876 --> 0:21:54.796
<v Speaker 3>and what we forget is there somebody else in the

0:21:54.836 --> 0:21:57.596
<v Speaker 3>boat with us too, who is helping us. You don't

0:21:57.676 --> 0:22:00.236
<v Speaker 3>have to drive the entire conversation. You can. If you'd

0:22:00.316 --> 0:22:03.796
<v Speaker 3>like a conversation to be more interesting and meaningful, you

0:22:03.956 --> 0:22:06.556
<v Speaker 3>can do that. You have the power to do that

0:22:06.676 --> 0:22:09.196
<v Speaker 3>if you try. But what we don't appreciate is that

0:22:09.556 --> 0:22:12.396
<v Speaker 3>when I open up to you, you're going to open back.

0:22:13.276 --> 0:22:16.476
<v Speaker 3>We're going to be paddling this canoe together, this conversation together,

0:22:16.516 --> 0:22:18.276
<v Speaker 3>and that's what people don't seem to realize.

0:22:18.676 --> 0:22:21.476
<v Speaker 1>We also forget that how we steer a social interaction

0:22:21.716 --> 0:22:24.676
<v Speaker 1>will affect how our partners react. Nick did a clever

0:22:24.756 --> 0:22:25.836
<v Speaker 1>study that tested this.

0:22:26.476 --> 0:22:28.636
<v Speaker 3>This was one where we sent people around the museum

0:22:28.716 --> 0:22:32.676
<v Speaker 3>and we asked them to just assess how friendly are

0:22:32.716 --> 0:22:34.076
<v Speaker 3>other people at the museum today.

0:22:34.596 --> 0:22:37.436
<v Speaker 1>In one condition, Nick coached his subjects to be friendlier

0:22:37.516 --> 0:22:39.956
<v Speaker 1>than they would normally be. They were told to smile

0:22:39.996 --> 0:22:42.356
<v Speaker 1>at the other people they ran into and to interact

0:22:42.396 --> 0:22:44.076
<v Speaker 1>by saying hello whenever they could.

0:22:44.556 --> 0:22:46.876
<v Speaker 3>In the other condition, they were just like detectives. They

0:22:46.996 --> 0:22:51.436
<v Speaker 3>just went around, walked around and just noticed how friendly

0:22:51.556 --> 0:22:53.876
<v Speaker 3>people seemed to be, But we didn't tell them to

0:22:53.996 --> 0:22:56.236
<v Speaker 3>engage with other people. When they came back to us,

0:22:56.516 --> 0:22:59.036
<v Speaker 3>they reported having a more positive walk when they were

0:22:59.076 --> 0:23:02.236
<v Speaker 3>smiling and saying hello to people. But they also reported

0:23:02.276 --> 0:23:05.516
<v Speaker 3>that people at the museum were friendlier that day than

0:23:05.556 --> 0:23:09.436
<v Speaker 3>people in the control condition. Simultaneously. That makes all the

0:23:09.516 --> 0:23:11.916
<v Speaker 3>sense in the world and no sense in the world. Right,

0:23:12.076 --> 0:23:14.836
<v Speaker 3>there were not different people at the museum that day.

0:23:15.396 --> 0:23:19.996
<v Speaker 3>You made people different, and you made them be friendlier

0:23:20.116 --> 0:23:23.316
<v Speaker 3>by engaging with them. First. It wasn't that there were

0:23:23.396 --> 0:23:26.396
<v Speaker 3>friendlier people at the museum. It's that you were friendlier.

0:23:26.516 --> 0:23:29.396
<v Speaker 3>You used the power you had to make people friendlier,

0:23:29.716 --> 0:23:30.676
<v Speaker 3>and you didn't recognize that.

0:23:31.356 --> 0:23:33.516
<v Speaker 1>Another thing that people don't seem to realize about the

0:23:33.556 --> 0:23:36.676
<v Speaker 1>norm of reciprocity is how it affects the grace people

0:23:36.716 --> 0:23:39.876
<v Speaker 1>are willing to give us during social interactions. When we're

0:23:39.876 --> 0:23:42.436
<v Speaker 1>about to go deep with someone new, we often start

0:23:42.476 --> 0:23:44.876
<v Speaker 1>to hear what Nick likes to call the cringe voice,

0:23:45.436 --> 0:23:48.076
<v Speaker 1>that voice inside our head that cringes as soon as

0:23:48.116 --> 0:23:49.996
<v Speaker 1>it thinks of all the things that could go wrong

0:23:50.076 --> 0:23:53.156
<v Speaker 1>when we start to engage in this new conversation. But

0:23:53.236 --> 0:23:56.916
<v Speaker 1>the cringe voice doesn't take into account reciprocity norms. It

0:23:57.036 --> 0:23:59.996
<v Speaker 1>forgets that if we speak to someone openly and authentically,

0:24:00.596 --> 0:24:03.956
<v Speaker 1>that person tends to respond with kindness, not with judgment.

0:24:04.636 --> 0:24:07.476
<v Speaker 1>All of these findings have convinced Nick that it's time

0:24:07.556 --> 0:24:09.756
<v Speaker 1>for all of us to ditch the usual small talk

0:24:10.156 --> 0:24:13.556
<v Speaker 1>in favor of deeper conversations. He outlines his advice for

0:24:13.636 --> 0:24:15.876
<v Speaker 1>how to do this in his excellent new book A

0:24:15.916 --> 0:24:20.196
<v Speaker 1>Little More Social, How small choices create unexpected happiness, health,

0:24:20.276 --> 0:24:23.756
<v Speaker 1>and connection. Many of Nick's tips involve finding ways to

0:24:23.836 --> 0:24:27.636
<v Speaker 1>go deeper in conversation a little more quickly, often much

0:24:27.676 --> 0:24:29.476
<v Speaker 1>more quickly than we assume is appropriate.

0:24:30.276 --> 0:24:33.676
<v Speaker 3>There are places where small talk works, and the place

0:24:33.716 --> 0:24:36.436
<v Speaker 3>where small talk works is often the first question, the

0:24:36.516 --> 0:24:38.116
<v Speaker 3>first thing you ask somebody about. What does it you

0:24:38.156 --> 0:24:40.556
<v Speaker 3>do for a living? Where is it you live? What

0:24:40.636 --> 0:24:41.156
<v Speaker 3>do you like to do?

0:24:41.716 --> 0:24:41.836
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:24:41.916 --> 0:24:44.476
<v Speaker 3>It's often a good launch bad. It's a good starting

0:24:44.516 --> 0:24:47.396
<v Speaker 3>point to engage with somebody, and it also allows you

0:24:47.516 --> 0:24:49.396
<v Speaker 3>to signal that you know you're not a crazy person.

0:24:49.556 --> 0:24:52.396
<v Speaker 3>It allows you to show some interest. But you can

0:24:52.556 --> 0:24:55.996
<v Speaker 3>just get to deep, meaningful stuff much faster than you think.

0:24:56.076 --> 0:24:58.876
<v Speaker 3>And so if you would like to have more, deep, meaningful,

0:24:58.956 --> 0:25:01.836
<v Speaker 3>better conversations in your life, you can choose to do it.

0:25:01.956 --> 0:25:04.556
<v Speaker 3>And it's often on that second question. You can do

0:25:04.636 --> 0:25:06.996
<v Speaker 3>it in two steps. I think usually, so what is

0:25:06.996 --> 0:25:08.676
<v Speaker 3>it you do for a living? Do you love what

0:25:08.756 --> 0:25:11.116
<v Speaker 3>you do for you're living? What was your favorite part

0:25:11.156 --> 0:25:12.716
<v Speaker 3>about it? What did you love the most about it?

0:25:13.116 --> 0:25:14.836
<v Speaker 3>You find out kind of what people are about, and

0:25:14.916 --> 0:25:15.916
<v Speaker 3>then you find out why.

0:25:16.116 --> 0:25:18.596
<v Speaker 1>Have your conversation has gotten better since choosing to go deeper?

0:25:18.836 --> 0:25:23.596
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, for one thing, I've learned that having these deeper

0:25:23.636 --> 0:25:27.436
<v Speaker 3>conversations is a lot about the mindset that you take

0:25:27.476 --> 0:25:30.516
<v Speaker 3>when you approach somebody else. If you start taking an

0:25:30.556 --> 0:25:33.396
<v Speaker 3>interest in people, recognizing that most people are kind and

0:25:33.436 --> 0:25:36.396
<v Speaker 3>they're decent and they're interesting, they know things you don't.

0:25:37.036 --> 0:25:40.116
<v Speaker 3>Your whole world starts to look different. You see strangers

0:25:40.156 --> 0:25:43.876
<v Speaker 3>sitting on the bus with you who are not like

0:25:43.956 --> 0:25:47.396
<v Speaker 3>these scary, creepy people, but these are fellow human beings

0:25:47.436 --> 0:25:51.116
<v Speaker 3>who have interesting things to tell you. And suddenly the

0:25:51.156 --> 0:25:53.996
<v Speaker 3>world looks friendlier and nicer and kinder. And I've talked

0:25:53.996 --> 0:25:55.876
<v Speaker 3>to so many people who have talked to people a

0:25:55.956 --> 0:25:58.196
<v Speaker 3>lot who go through the same experience. It just changes

0:25:58.236 --> 0:26:00.836
<v Speaker 3>the way you see people. You learn very quickly. You

0:26:00.876 --> 0:26:03.676
<v Speaker 3>can get to know people, and your conversations are just

0:26:03.916 --> 0:26:07.196
<v Speaker 3>much better. Your connections with people are just much better.

0:26:07.276 --> 0:26:10.196
<v Speaker 3>You can share things with people that maybe you never

0:26:10.276 --> 0:26:12.556
<v Speaker 3>would have before. And I do this all the time.

0:26:12.636 --> 0:26:15.316
<v Speaker 3>I've lost when it comes to deep conversation. I've lost

0:26:15.396 --> 0:26:18.156
<v Speaker 3>the cringe voice. I still have it anymore.

0:26:19.676 --> 0:26:23.436
<v Speaker 1>Conversations and connections that feel much better and fully turning

0:26:23.516 --> 0:26:25.756
<v Speaker 1>off that cringe voice that makes us feel terrible in

0:26:25.836 --> 0:26:29.676
<v Speaker 1>social interactions. I gotta admit all that sounds pretty good.

0:26:30.356 --> 0:26:32.756
<v Speaker 1>But Nick is a world expert on the science of connection.

0:26:33.316 --> 0:26:35.876
<v Speaker 1>It makes sense that he can pull off deeper conversation

0:26:36.276 --> 0:26:39.156
<v Speaker 1>without his cringe voice butting in. But would the same

0:26:39.276 --> 0:26:42.796
<v Speaker 1>deep talk strategy work for someone who's been clinically diagnosed

0:26:42.836 --> 0:26:44.756
<v Speaker 1>with an exceptionally loud cringe voice.

0:26:45.116 --> 0:26:46.516
<v Speaker 2>Your loser, you're weird?

0:26:46.916 --> 0:26:49.996
<v Speaker 1>Could committing to deep conversation for an entire month work

0:26:50.036 --> 0:26:53.476
<v Speaker 1>for a person who spent decades being mortally terrified of

0:26:53.556 --> 0:26:54.076
<v Speaker 1>small talk.

0:26:54.356 --> 0:26:56.516
<v Speaker 2>It was like, you've got eighteen more days, Clere. You

0:26:56.636 --> 0:26:58.436
<v Speaker 2>said you would do this, so we're going to finish it.

0:26:59.196 --> 0:27:01.916
<v Speaker 1>Blogger Claire Eastam will return to tell us how her

0:27:01.996 --> 0:27:05.636
<v Speaker 1>small talk ditching experiment went when the Happiness Lad returns

0:27:05.876 --> 0:27:17.316
<v Speaker 1>from the break. When we last left Mental Health blog

0:27:17.356 --> 0:27:20.596
<v Speaker 1>or Claire Eastam, she'd had an epiphany. Feeling tired of

0:27:20.636 --> 0:27:23.756
<v Speaker 1>the pressure she regularly put on herself during social interactions,

0:27:24.156 --> 0:27:28.036
<v Speaker 1>Claire decided to embark on an experiment. For one entire month.

0:27:28.156 --> 0:27:30.796
<v Speaker 1>She would replace all small talk with the sort of weirder,

0:27:30.996 --> 0:27:34.276
<v Speaker 1>more authentic questions that would make her grandmother Evelyne proud.

0:27:34.676 --> 0:27:38.596
<v Speaker 2>It's going to be selfishly something I'm interested in. Genuinely,

0:27:39.196 --> 0:27:41.876
<v Speaker 2>if they asked me a small talk question, I will

0:27:42.236 --> 0:27:43.836
<v Speaker 2>twist it without being rude.

0:27:44.556 --> 0:27:46.996
<v Speaker 1>Her experiment began on the night of a friend's art show,

0:27:47.436 --> 0:27:50.996
<v Speaker 1>exactly the kind of social situation that Claire would usually dread.

0:27:51.236 --> 0:27:52.956
<v Speaker 2>Because it was an art show. Everyone was going in

0:27:53.076 --> 0:27:56.156
<v Speaker 2>with what don't you think they ought? Obviously? And I

0:27:56.196 --> 0:27:57.356
<v Speaker 2>don't know anything about ah.

0:27:58.036 --> 0:28:01.236
<v Speaker 1>Ignoring her usual cringe voice, Claire launched into her first

0:28:01.276 --> 0:28:02.796
<v Speaker 1>attempt to go a little deeper.

0:28:02.956 --> 0:28:04.516
<v Speaker 2>This woman said to me, what do you think that

0:28:04.556 --> 0:28:06.356
<v Speaker 2>they ought? And I said, do you remember your at

0:28:06.396 --> 0:28:10.116
<v Speaker 2>teacher from school? I can remember, mind, and then she

0:28:10.156 --> 0:28:11.156
<v Speaker 2>suddenly just switched.

0:28:11.556 --> 0:28:13.436
<v Speaker 1>The woman lit up as she talked about what she

0:28:13.596 --> 0:28:16.796
<v Speaker 1>remembered from her elementary school art class. She then asked

0:28:16.836 --> 0:28:19.956
<v Speaker 1>Claire about her own experiences. They laughed with one another

0:28:20.156 --> 0:28:22.876
<v Speaker 1>as the conversation flowed. It was the first time that

0:28:22.956 --> 0:28:26.116
<v Speaker 1>Claire had actually had fun at a social event. As

0:28:26.156 --> 0:28:28.636
<v Speaker 1>she walked home from that art show, she realized that

0:28:28.756 --> 0:28:31.236
<v Speaker 1>day one of her experiment had been a huge success.

0:28:31.556 --> 0:28:34.316
<v Speaker 2>We're going to keep doing it because it's lighting us up.

0:28:34.956 --> 0:28:37.356
<v Speaker 1>In the weeks that followed, Claire found ways to shift

0:28:37.436 --> 0:28:40.556
<v Speaker 1>all manner of shallow conversations into topics that went a

0:28:40.636 --> 0:28:43.316
<v Speaker 1>bit deeper. When a barista asked her how she was

0:28:43.476 --> 0:28:46.636
<v Speaker 1>enjoying the weather, she asked him what his favorite season.

0:28:46.516 --> 0:28:47.196
<v Speaker 3>Was and why?

0:28:47.996 --> 0:28:49.996
<v Speaker 1>Or take the guy who asked Claire what she'd been

0:28:50.036 --> 0:28:51.156
<v Speaker 1>watching on TV lately.

0:28:51.596 --> 0:28:54.156
<v Speaker 2>He's talking about killing Eve the TV show. And then

0:28:54.196 --> 0:28:56.996
<v Speaker 2>I was like, if you could kill someone and you

0:28:57.036 --> 0:28:58.796
<v Speaker 2>could pretty much get away with it, like, what would

0:28:58.796 --> 0:29:01.156
<v Speaker 2>be the plan? And he was just like, I've got

0:29:01.196 --> 0:29:03.356
<v Speaker 2>a complete plan. I know what I would do. She's like,

0:29:03.756 --> 0:29:05.876
<v Speaker 2>that's a ball. You need to get barrels of acid.

0:29:06.396 --> 0:29:08.756
<v Speaker 2>And they explained how I would get said acid because

0:29:08.756 --> 0:29:11.156
<v Speaker 2>he's like, no body, no crime. It's like and it's

0:29:11.196 --> 0:29:13.436
<v Speaker 2>the stomach that's the hardest bit to get rid of,

0:29:13.876 --> 0:29:15.436
<v Speaker 2>so you need to be able to like chop it.

0:29:15.796 --> 0:29:17.156
<v Speaker 2>It was really graphic and I.

0:29:17.196 --> 0:29:23.836
<v Speaker 1>Was like, wow, yeah, wow, but potential ax murder interactions aside,

0:29:24.156 --> 0:29:27.836
<v Speaker 1>Claire deeply enjoyed just how positively other people reacted when

0:29:27.876 --> 0:29:30.156
<v Speaker 1>she shut down the usual shallow conversation.

0:29:30.676 --> 0:29:33.556
<v Speaker 2>God, the amount people who said to me, oh, I

0:29:33.596 --> 0:29:36.276
<v Speaker 2>don't I small talk. Either this is brilliant, this is

0:29:36.316 --> 0:29:37.516
<v Speaker 2>so refreshing.

0:29:37.476 --> 0:29:40.076
<v Speaker 1>Or take Tracy the middle aged woman. Claire decided to

0:29:40.116 --> 0:29:41.476
<v Speaker 1>approach her local cafe.

0:29:41.756 --> 0:29:44.596
<v Speaker 2>I'd seen her quite a few times and I was like,

0:29:44.756 --> 0:29:48.196
<v Speaker 2>she's really cool. Well, she's really confident, so I never

0:29:48.276 --> 0:29:51.276
<v Speaker 2>really approached her. But because it was the science, damn it.

0:29:53.036 --> 0:29:55.956
<v Speaker 1>Claire started by asking Tracy what she did for exercise.

0:29:56.476 --> 0:29:58.876
<v Speaker 1>Tracy explained that she thought of herself as a member

0:29:58.956 --> 0:30:01.436
<v Speaker 1>of the five Am club, those people who go for

0:30:01.556 --> 0:30:04.116
<v Speaker 1>walks super early in the morning, even when it's still

0:30:04.236 --> 0:30:04.596
<v Speaker 1>dark out.

0:30:04.716 --> 0:30:06.916
<v Speaker 2>I was like, so, how do you keep yourself safe?

0:30:06.956 --> 0:30:10.796
<v Speaker 2>And she's like, carry a rock. You've been serious. She's like, oh, yeah, yeah,

0:30:10.876 --> 0:30:13.036
<v Speaker 2>and I let people see that I'm carrying this rock

0:30:13.356 --> 0:30:16.516
<v Speaker 2>like a brick. And then from there she sort of

0:30:16.596 --> 0:30:19.876
<v Speaker 2>told me how somebody had tried to get her in

0:30:19.996 --> 0:30:23.036
<v Speaker 2>a van when she was in her thirties and she

0:30:23.156 --> 0:30:27.556
<v Speaker 2>beat the shit out of him, and I was just intrigued,

0:30:27.596 --> 0:30:29.476
<v Speaker 2>and I ended up being honest with her about I'm

0:30:29.476 --> 0:30:33.116
<v Speaker 2>actually doing this experiment with smart talk, as she said,

0:30:33.156 --> 0:30:35.876
<v Speaker 2>I love it, and then explained that I'm quite socially

0:30:35.916 --> 0:30:38.956
<v Speaker 2>anxious person. She said, I'm not getting that vibe.

0:30:38.716 --> 0:30:40.996
<v Speaker 1>At all, and I love having these kind of conversations.

0:30:41.396 --> 0:30:43.756
<v Speaker 1>And that wouldn't be the last conversation that Claire had

0:30:43.796 --> 0:30:44.276
<v Speaker 1>with Tracy.

0:30:44.716 --> 0:30:47.156
<v Speaker 2>We met up a couple of days later and talked

0:30:47.236 --> 0:30:50.476
<v Speaker 2>for two hours, like NonStop or coffee about everything from

0:30:51.116 --> 0:30:56.876
<v Speaker 2>star signs to travel to intergalactic stuff to past life,

0:30:57.036 --> 0:31:02.076
<v Speaker 2>to spirituality, to films. He was just very childlike. You know,

0:31:02.156 --> 0:31:05.196
<v Speaker 2>come when you have a sleepover when you're a teenager

0:31:05.236 --> 0:31:08.876
<v Speaker 2>and you just like top anything and it's like addictive.

0:31:09.196 --> 0:31:11.196
<v Speaker 2>It was amazing.

0:31:11.916 --> 0:31:14.596
<v Speaker 1>Claire admits that not all her attempts at deep conversations

0:31:14.676 --> 0:31:16.236
<v Speaker 1>went as well as the one with Tracy.

0:31:16.636 --> 0:31:18.436
<v Speaker 2>Not everyone's going to like you, which is a really

0:31:18.556 --> 0:31:22.076
<v Speaker 2>basic thing to say, But it took me a really

0:31:22.156 --> 0:31:26.116
<v Speaker 2>long time to accept that one Not everybody's going to

0:31:26.236 --> 0:31:30.436
<v Speaker 2>like you, And that's okay. It's about finding one person

0:31:30.476 --> 0:31:32.716
<v Speaker 2>you connect with in the room. I'll take that.

0:31:33.036 --> 0:31:35.356
<v Speaker 1>Claire has also learned not to beat herself up when

0:31:35.396 --> 0:31:37.836
<v Speaker 1>a conversation doesn't go as well as she expected.

0:31:37.996 --> 0:31:40.396
<v Speaker 2>It's all right, you don't have to continue talking to

0:31:40.516 --> 0:31:43.916
<v Speaker 2>this person. You can politely leave now. I just think, oh,

0:31:43.956 --> 0:31:45.996
<v Speaker 2>fair enough, and then on to the next.

0:31:46.356 --> 0:31:49.676
<v Speaker 1>Claire's experiment also taught her the same insight that psychologist

0:31:49.756 --> 0:31:52.636
<v Speaker 1>Nick Epley shared earlier, that she was more in control

0:31:52.716 --> 0:31:55.756
<v Speaker 1>of her everyday interactions than she thought. That she wasn't

0:31:55.796 --> 0:31:59.196
<v Speaker 1>the only one paddling that conversational canoe, that she had

0:31:59.236 --> 0:32:01.956
<v Speaker 1>the agency to choose where the discussion went, and to

0:32:02.036 --> 0:32:04.956
<v Speaker 1>steer interactions towards topics that felt more authentic.

0:32:05.236 --> 0:32:08.916
<v Speaker 2>It made it fun again. And for someone with social anxiety,

0:32:09.156 --> 0:32:11.396
<v Speaker 2>it can feel like they're a bit of a minefield,

0:32:11.716 --> 0:32:12.836
<v Speaker 2>and this just made fun.

0:32:13.636 --> 0:32:16.156
<v Speaker 1>Indeed, Claire had so much fun with her experiment that

0:32:16.276 --> 0:32:18.236
<v Speaker 1>she wanted to try out some of her favorite cheap

0:32:18.316 --> 0:32:19.716
<v Speaker 1>questions with yours.

0:32:19.476 --> 0:32:21.676
<v Speaker 2>Truly, because I'm getting a good vibe with you.

0:32:22.596 --> 0:32:23.276
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's good.

0:32:24.876 --> 0:32:27.676
<v Speaker 2>If you could have any mythological great shirt as a pet,

0:32:27.916 --> 0:32:28.516
<v Speaker 2>what would.

0:32:28.276 --> 0:32:28.596
<v Speaker 3>You go for?

0:32:29.676 --> 0:32:29.876
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:32:30.156 --> 0:32:34.996
<v Speaker 1>Very interesting? Most of them are not domesticated, so they're

0:32:35.036 --> 0:32:37.716
<v Speaker 1>gonna like make a mess of the house and you know,

0:32:37.956 --> 0:32:40.316
<v Speaker 1>poop and pee on the floor and stuff like that. Yeah,

0:32:40.356 --> 0:32:43.436
<v Speaker 1>so I might go for like a small one, like

0:32:43.516 --> 0:32:46.756
<v Speaker 1>a fairy. Like a fairy. Yeah, I feel like a fairy.

0:32:46.916 --> 0:32:49.396
<v Speaker 1>You could throw a diaper on her and be all right, Yeah,

0:32:49.716 --> 0:32:50.636
<v Speaker 1>what's yours do?

0:32:50.836 --> 0:32:54.476
<v Speaker 2>I have absolutely no full control, so dragon obviously and

0:32:54.676 --> 0:32:56.596
<v Speaker 2>just deal with the chaos that comes with that and

0:32:57.196 --> 0:33:02.596
<v Speaker 2>burn places to the ground and straight away, that tells

0:33:02.636 --> 0:33:04.956
<v Speaker 2>me more about your personality, and it tells you more

0:33:04.956 --> 0:33:08.916
<v Speaker 2>about my Yes, like you're a very you're very thoughtful, practical.

0:33:09.156 --> 0:33:11.996
<v Speaker 1>Chaos agent who's totally fine with burning things down in

0:33:12.076 --> 0:33:12.556
<v Speaker 1>her own home.

0:33:13.396 --> 0:33:15.156
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely no common sense. Yes.

0:33:16.676 --> 0:33:19.276
<v Speaker 1>Another of Claire's favorite get to know you questions is this,

0:33:20.036 --> 0:33:21.916
<v Speaker 1>as a kid, did you ever have a crush on

0:33:21.996 --> 0:33:22.956
<v Speaker 1>a cartoon character?

0:33:23.356 --> 0:33:26.676
<v Speaker 2>Oh, Robin Hood, the Disney Me too, the Fox?

0:33:27.076 --> 0:33:28.596
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the same same.

0:33:29.076 --> 0:33:30.716
<v Speaker 2>Do you know you're the first person who said that.

0:33:30.836 --> 0:33:33.116
<v Speaker 2>Most people look at me like no, No, I'm totally

0:33:33.236 --> 0:33:38.636
<v Speaker 2>come on, you can fight and he's cheeky and he's

0:33:38.716 --> 0:33:41.076
<v Speaker 2>the one for me if I could change species.

0:33:41.556 --> 0:33:43.556
<v Speaker 1>And secretly I think my husband looks a little bit

0:33:43.636 --> 0:33:44.956
<v Speaker 1>like the fox from Robin Hood.

0:33:45.196 --> 0:33:45.396
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:33:45.836 --> 0:33:47.716
<v Speaker 1>I have to admit chatting with Claire about all these

0:33:47.756 --> 0:33:50.596
<v Speaker 1>weird questions was really fun, and not just because I

0:33:50.636 --> 0:33:53.676
<v Speaker 1>got to talk about my cartoon crush. I genuinely felt

0:33:53.716 --> 0:33:56.516
<v Speaker 1>like those inquiries made us feel closer, like they could

0:33:56.556 --> 0:33:59.316
<v Speaker 1>be part of some new Fast Friends procedure updated for

0:33:59.396 --> 0:34:02.876
<v Speaker 1>the twenty first century. In fact, I liked Claire's questions

0:34:02.956 --> 0:34:05.116
<v Speaker 1>so much that I decided to try some of them

0:34:05.156 --> 0:34:07.476
<v Speaker 1>out with the deep talk expert himself.

0:34:07.836 --> 0:34:09.756
<v Speaker 3>These are not my approved crash no no, no no,

0:34:10.076 --> 0:34:12.036
<v Speaker 3>but maybe you'll put them in. Some of them are

0:34:12.036 --> 0:34:12.476
<v Speaker 3>pretty good.

0:34:12.876 --> 0:34:15.036
<v Speaker 1>This was one that I thought was very diagnostic. If

0:34:15.076 --> 0:34:17.636
<v Speaker 1>you could have one mythological creature as a pet, which

0:34:17.716 --> 0:34:18.276
<v Speaker 1>creature would you?

0:34:18.676 --> 0:34:18.796
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:34:18.876 --> 0:34:22.116
<v Speaker 3>My goodness, I would like the horse with the wings.

0:34:22.156 --> 0:34:25.356
<v Speaker 3>That's Pegasus, right, That's what my husband said. Yeah, who

0:34:25.396 --> 0:34:28.116
<v Speaker 3>doesn't want to fly? Are you kidding me? Horse is awesome?

0:34:28.276 --> 0:34:32.076
<v Speaker 3>Flying horse? That's like, you know, an exponential increase in

0:34:32.156 --> 0:34:34.076
<v Speaker 3>awesomeness of a horse totally.

0:34:34.356 --> 0:34:35.996
<v Speaker 1>When I answered, I hadn't thought of a horse. I

0:34:36.076 --> 0:34:39.316
<v Speaker 1>was just thinking, like most mythological creatures are like not domesticated,

0:34:39.716 --> 0:34:41.516
<v Speaker 1>scary like I was like, I just want like a

0:34:41.636 --> 0:34:43.876
<v Speaker 1>small one, like a fairy, like you pull like a

0:34:43.956 --> 0:34:47.676
<v Speaker 1>diaper eye. I've known Nick for a long time, but

0:34:47.796 --> 0:34:50.596
<v Speaker 1>Clear's questions helped me realize just how much I didn't

0:34:50.636 --> 0:34:53.436
<v Speaker 1>know about Nick, all the personal things we hadn't yet

0:34:53.476 --> 0:34:55.276
<v Speaker 1>had a chance to talk about. What was your art

0:34:55.316 --> 0:34:59.156
<v Speaker 1>teacher like in school? Did you like art as a subject? No?

0:34:59.276 --> 0:35:02.316
<v Speaker 3>I hated art. However, the best class I have ever

0:35:02.476 --> 0:35:05.636
<v Speaker 3>taken in my entire life was a pottery class when

0:35:05.636 --> 0:35:08.316
<v Speaker 3>I was in high school. The most consistently fun every day,

0:35:08.356 --> 0:35:10.556
<v Speaker 3>the one I always forward to. It was the one

0:35:10.596 --> 0:35:13.476
<v Speaker 3>I remember from high school really enjoying a lot do

0:35:13.516 --> 0:35:15.996
<v Speaker 3>you do pottery? Now you know I don't. I don't,

0:35:16.116 --> 0:35:20.116
<v Speaker 3>but I do do the woodworking equivalent of it, which

0:35:20.196 --> 0:35:23.676
<v Speaker 3>is lathe. I do lathe work. I love that feeling,

0:35:24.596 --> 0:35:26.036
<v Speaker 3>and so that has stuck with me.

0:35:26.356 --> 0:35:29.036
<v Speaker 1>Claire says that she often has a similar experience when

0:35:29.076 --> 0:35:30.116
<v Speaker 1>going deeper with friends.

0:35:30.396 --> 0:35:32.436
<v Speaker 2>And this sounds a bit weir weird book, it felt

0:35:32.476 --> 0:35:34.356
<v Speaker 2>like muchic. We all know that we're all in our

0:35:34.356 --> 0:35:37.276
<v Speaker 2>own heads, our on narratives. I don't mean to be

0:35:37.356 --> 0:35:40.036
<v Speaker 2>self centered, It's just that's what we're focused on right,

0:35:40.116 --> 0:35:43.676
<v Speaker 2>our own experience, our own perception of reality. So when

0:35:43.756 --> 0:35:48.396
<v Speaker 2>you suddenly have that light up moment with someone, it

0:35:48.636 --> 0:35:51.076
<v Speaker 2>feels like magic to me. I just keep saying, lights

0:35:51.116 --> 0:35:52.516
<v Speaker 2>me up, because it really does.

0:35:53.316 --> 0:35:56.196
<v Speaker 1>I asked Claire to share some final advice about bringing

0:35:56.276 --> 0:35:59.036
<v Speaker 1>the light of deep conversation into our lives.

0:35:59.116 --> 0:36:01.236
<v Speaker 2>So that small people will find their own feet. The

0:36:01.276 --> 0:36:03.636
<v Speaker 2>most important thing is to start. Someone says, how are

0:36:03.716 --> 0:36:04.156
<v Speaker 2>you just say?

0:36:04.196 --> 0:36:04.556
<v Speaker 3>Do you know what?

0:36:04.796 --> 0:36:07.276
<v Speaker 2>I've just finished reading this book or I've just finished

0:36:07.316 --> 0:36:10.596
<v Speaker 2>watching this thing. It's a gentle to maneuver it. You

0:36:10.636 --> 0:36:12.756
<v Speaker 2>couldn't even own it. Depends on how brave you are.

0:36:12.876 --> 0:36:15.636
<v Speaker 2>You could own it. And say I'm not going to

0:36:15.756 --> 0:36:18.636
<v Speaker 2>small talk. Do you mind if I ask you about this?

0:36:18.836 --> 0:36:21.076
<v Speaker 2>Since diad you don't have to do twenty eight days,

0:36:21.116 --> 0:36:22.916
<v Speaker 2>You could just do it for a day. See what

0:36:22.996 --> 0:36:25.196
<v Speaker 2>it does to your moved Say if it raises your

0:36:25.236 --> 0:36:26.396
<v Speaker 2>vibration a little bit.

0:36:27.316 --> 0:36:30.556
<v Speaker 1>So that is today's happiness hot take. We all need

0:36:30.636 --> 0:36:33.036
<v Speaker 1>to ditch the small talk and go a little deeper.

0:36:33.676 --> 0:36:36.316
<v Speaker 1>I know, I know your cringe voice is probably saying

0:36:36.396 --> 0:36:38.916
<v Speaker 1>that it'll be awkward, or that people will think you're

0:36:38.956 --> 0:36:41.676
<v Speaker 1>weird if you get too vulnerable, or if you say

0:36:41.916 --> 0:36:44.236
<v Speaker 1>revealed that you've long thought that your husband looks like

0:36:44.276 --> 0:36:48.116
<v Speaker 1>a cartoon Fox character. Believe me, I get it. But

0:36:48.236 --> 0:36:51.196
<v Speaker 1>the science shows that our conversations and connections can feel

0:36:51.356 --> 0:36:54.676
<v Speaker 1>much much better if we channel our inner evolent eastems

0:36:54.836 --> 0:36:57.436
<v Speaker 1>and commit to going a bit deeper. And if you

0:36:57.516 --> 0:36:59.756
<v Speaker 1>need some ideas, Nick was kind enough to let me

0:36:59.836 --> 0:37:02.796
<v Speaker 1>share his full list of deep questions. You can check

0:37:02.836 --> 0:37:06.676
<v Speaker 1>them out at doctor Lauri Santo's dot com slash deep questions.

0:37:07.156 --> 0:37:11.236
<v Speaker 1>That's doctor Laurisanto's dot com slash deep questions. And if

0:37:11.276 --> 0:37:13.676
<v Speaker 1>you want to learn even more tips for connecting deeply,

0:37:14.076 --> 0:37:16.236
<v Speaker 1>be sure to check out Nick's new book, A Little

0:37:16.316 --> 0:37:19.396
<v Speaker 1>More Social, which is on sale now. Next week, we'll

0:37:19.396 --> 0:37:22.516
<v Speaker 1>continue our happiness hot takes with one that specifically for

0:37:22.596 --> 0:37:25.396
<v Speaker 1>the guys in the audience. We'll see why does today

0:37:25.676 --> 0:37:26.956
<v Speaker 1>need more romances?

0:37:27.356 --> 0:37:29.876
<v Speaker 2>Like if I'm me to do and I like him

0:37:29.916 --> 0:37:31.636
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to get to know him, I'm never

0:37:31.716 --> 0:37:33.756
<v Speaker 2>going to say, whereas my wife, Mike, you.

0:37:33.756 --> 0:37:35.676
<v Speaker 3>Want to look up a coffee sometime, A guy is

0:37:36.076 --> 0:37:36.956
<v Speaker 3>never going to do that.

0:37:37.276 --> 0:37:40.116
<v Speaker 1>That's next week on the Happiness Lab would be doctor

0:37:40.196 --> 0:37:40.996
<v Speaker 1>Laurie Santos