1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:25,556 Speaker 2: I'm not a mysterious person like I really wish I was. 3 00:00:25,996 --> 00:00:28,956 Speaker 2: I've tried to be a cool girl. I can't if 4 00:00:28,956 --> 00:00:29,956 Speaker 2: I ask, not me, and I'm just like. 5 00:00:30,076 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: Boo for as long as she can remember. Author in 6 00:00:32,956 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: mental health blogger Clear Eastam has found social situations to 7 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:37,996 Speaker 1: be surprisingly stressful. 8 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 2: What if I say something stupid? What if I make 9 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:43,476 Speaker 2: a fool of myself? What if I'm boring? What if 10 00:00:43,516 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 2: nobody wants to talk to me? There's always a lot 11 00:00:45,356 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 2: of what if questions mentally, and they are almost immediately 12 00:00:48,996 --> 00:00:53,556 Speaker 2: accompanied by the emotional response, which is more anxiety, stress, fear, 13 00:00:53,996 --> 00:00:58,036 Speaker 2: and then the physical symptoms such as pounding heart. Sometimes 14 00:00:58,076 --> 00:01:01,796 Speaker 2: I might blush or sort of general feeling of unease. 15 00:01:02,076 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 2: I tend to get like I like, I want to bolt. 16 00:01:04,276 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: And the conversational norm that makes clear want to bolt 17 00:01:06,756 --> 00:01:08,476 Speaker 1: the most is small talk. 18 00:01:09,116 --> 00:01:11,196 Speaker 2: What do you think of the weather? What's going on? 19 00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:14,956 Speaker 1: You're staying busy? Man? I can't believe it's already Wednesday. 20 00:01:15,396 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 1: How is the traffic on your drive? 21 00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 2: Oh? My god, I don't know if it's to say. 22 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:20,196 Speaker 2: When you were in the UK, people love to talk 23 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:22,476 Speaker 2: about how they arrived at a venue, what road did 24 00:01:22,476 --> 00:01:22,796 Speaker 2: you take? 25 00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:22,956 Speaker 3: Like? 26 00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:24,756 Speaker 2: I have no idea, mate, I just got it. 27 00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:27,556 Speaker 1: And don't get clear started on this all too common 28 00:01:27,596 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 1: conversation starter. How are you? 29 00:01:29,996 --> 00:01:32,236 Speaker 2: It just feels like too light of a question to 30 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:35,996 Speaker 2: answer because you think I know the response is I'm fine? 31 00:01:36,196 --> 00:01:39,196 Speaker 2: How are you? For fifty percent of the time, I'm 32 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:42,116 Speaker 2: not fine? And I don't feel like answering that question 33 00:01:42,676 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 2: inauthentically because it's a lie. 34 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:49,116 Speaker 1: Claire has long dreaded spending time in small talk conversational autopilot. 35 00:01:49,196 --> 00:01:50,636 Speaker 2: I didn't know how long it was supposed to last. 36 00:01:51,076 --> 00:01:53,196 Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was supposed to say because 37 00:01:53,196 --> 00:01:55,836 Speaker 2: I'm not interested in the weather. It's like it's raining again. 38 00:01:56,076 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 2: Uh huh. We can't go anywhere with this unless you 39 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 2: take us somewhere, and I'm stressed that you might not 40 00:02:01,076 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 2: do that, and then the responsibility will fall on me, 41 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:05,756 Speaker 2: and I don't know what to say apart from you know, 42 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:09,596 Speaker 2: rain is wet, as. 43 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:11,796 Speaker 1: You can hear. Claire does have some not so small 44 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,796 Speaker 1: feelings about small talk, but I'm guessing that at least 45 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 1: some of you listening right now can relate talking about 46 00:02:17,796 --> 00:02:20,156 Speaker 1: the weather for the fifth time in a single afternoon 47 00:02:20,676 --> 00:02:23,236 Speaker 1: being asked how you're doing by someone who doesn't even 48 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 1: listen to your response. Superficial interactions like these can feel painful. 49 00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 1: They can cause you to second guess if you're doing 50 00:02:29,876 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 1: the whole social connection thing right or if it's even 51 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:36,636 Speaker 1: worth it, Which leads me to today's happiness hot take 52 00:02:36,876 --> 00:02:40,076 Speaker 1: you ready here it is we should completely get rid 53 00:02:40,116 --> 00:02:43,356 Speaker 1: of small talk. I'm talking zero tolerance. We need to 54 00:02:43,396 --> 00:02:47,956 Speaker 1: fully rethink our usual approach to conversational autopilot. Why kill 55 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: off small talk, you ask? 56 00:02:49,596 --> 00:02:49,796 Speaker 3: Well? 57 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:52,956 Speaker 1: Research shows that small talk has an opportunity cost that 58 00:02:53,036 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 1: our minds don't realize. All those how's the weathers? And 59 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:58,556 Speaker 1: is it Friday? Yets cause us to miss out on 60 00:02:58,636 --> 00:03:01,596 Speaker 1: a happier way that we could be spending our social interactions, 61 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:05,596 Speaker 1: a type of conversation that feels less stressful, more engaging, 62 00:03:05,796 --> 00:03:11,556 Speaker 1: and way way more fun. Our minds are constantly telling 63 00:03:11,596 --> 00:03:13,516 Speaker 1: us what to you to be happy. But what if 64 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:15,996 Speaker 1: our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying 65 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:18,116 Speaker 1: to us, leading us away from what will really make 66 00:03:18,196 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 1: us happy. The good news is that the science of 67 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:23,196 Speaker 1: the mind can point us all back in the right direction. 68 00:03:23,876 --> 00:03:31,556 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Happiness Lab with me doctor Laurie Santos. 69 00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:41,356 Speaker 2: A would self scam people almost like the terminator, and 70 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 2: they're like looking for signs the person to alignments, persons board, 71 00:03:47,556 --> 00:03:50,636 Speaker 2: and I would view all social insurrections as a success 72 00:03:50,716 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 2: or a failure. 73 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:55,076 Speaker 1: Growing up, author and blogger Claire Eastam often thought of 74 00:03:55,156 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 1: social situations as if she was going into battle. Take 75 00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:02,076 Speaker 1: family get togethers. Some kids love seeing their relatives, but 76 00:04:02,236 --> 00:04:05,836 Speaker 1: Claire heated family celebrations so much that she'd regularly get 77 00:04:05,916 --> 00:04:08,836 Speaker 1: stomach aches on the car ride over. She'd spend days 78 00:04:08,876 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 1: before these upcoming events worried about conversations she'd be forced 79 00:04:12,556 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 1: to endure. 80 00:04:13,436 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 2: Oh Joe saw got this promotion, and so and so 81 00:04:15,916 --> 00:04:19,316 Speaker 2: has got this many grades at school, and no, like 82 00:04:19,316 --> 00:04:20,596 Speaker 2: why are we having these chaps? 83 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 1: But there was one family member that young Claire did 84 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:26,436 Speaker 1: feel comfortable around, someone who seemed to detest a small 85 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:30,076 Speaker 1: talk just as much as she did, her grandmother, Evelyn Eastam. 86 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:32,916 Speaker 2: My grandma used to just sit in the kitchen chains 87 00:04:32,956 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 2: milking cigarettes, and so I was slacking the rest of 88 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 2: the family off because she did not perform for anybody. 89 00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:41,476 Speaker 1: Grandma Eastam or her conversational authenticity with pride, What do 90 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:42,036 Speaker 1: you really. 91 00:04:41,876 --> 00:04:43,836 Speaker 2: Think of your uncle Paul, Does I tell you what 92 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:48,636 Speaker 2: I think? He thinks? He's flashy with his BMW Well. 93 00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 1: Claire's grandmother also found a way to make conversation more fun, 94 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:54,916 Speaker 1: often by adding a bit of ridiculousness. 95 00:04:55,276 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 2: She managed to convince me that she wrote The Wizard 96 00:04:57,676 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 2: of Alls but she sat in Wigan in the UK. 97 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:03,036 Speaker 2: I believed this, but she told me like half the 98 00:05:03,076 --> 00:05:04,636 Speaker 2: story around this dining room table, and I was like, 99 00:05:04,756 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 2: this is amazing, Grandma. And she would courage to me 100 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 2: and she's like, well, you gonna write a story, Like 101 00:05:11,356 --> 00:05:13,476 Speaker 2: what would you write it about? And what characters would 102 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:15,276 Speaker 2: you have? And then she'd like, we should write it 103 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:17,356 Speaker 2: down and then next time I see you, you could 104 00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:17,996 Speaker 2: tell me about it. 105 00:05:18,676 --> 00:05:22,076 Speaker 1: Evelyn's off the wild questions and authentic curiosity helped young 106 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:25,476 Speaker 1: Claire feel more comfortable during family gatherings, but as Claire 107 00:05:25,556 --> 00:05:29,316 Speaker 1: got older, safe social spaces like these felt rarer and rarer. 108 00:05:29,596 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 2: When I have to perform, that's what I call it, 109 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 2: the how did you get here? It's more stressful for 110 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 2: me because I feel like I'm swallowing part of my 111 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:42,236 Speaker 2: personality to fit in. And then all I do is 112 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 2: clockwatch like, how long do I have to stay? How 113 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:47,436 Speaker 2: long am I here fort? Because I'm getting no enjoyment 114 00:05:47,516 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 2: out of this and it's just making me feel more anxious. 115 00:05:50,476 --> 00:05:53,116 Speaker 1: Whenever Claire was forced to be social, she found herself 116 00:05:53,156 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 1: seeking out allies like Evelyn. 117 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:57,636 Speaker 2: I would just try and find these people who would 118 00:05:57,716 --> 00:05:59,996 Speaker 2: make me feel like I could be myself, really, like, 119 00:06:00,236 --> 00:06:03,116 Speaker 2: who's not playing the game? You marveless? 120 00:06:03,556 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 1: But that got harder after Claire graduated and entered the 121 00:06:06,276 --> 00:06:08,836 Speaker 1: working world. Securing a position at one of the most 122 00:06:08,836 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: prestigious publishing houses in London was huge for Claire's blossoming career, 123 00:06:13,436 --> 00:06:16,476 Speaker 1: but it met regularly facing the sorts of social battlegrounds 124 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:17,556 Speaker 1: that she feared the most. 125 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of people here I 126 00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 2: potentially have to perform too. I can't control this environment. 127 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:26,396 Speaker 2: I can't control what's going to happen next. 128 00:06:26,876 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 1: To gain back a sense of control, Claire developed a 129 00:06:29,356 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 1: whole host of not so healthy coping strategies. Behavior is 130 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: like extreme people pleasing. 131 00:06:34,676 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 2: My friend said this about me. Actually, she said, you 132 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:38,156 Speaker 2: could get hit by a boss and you know your 133 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 2: arm would come off and you're black. Oh my god, 134 00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I'll just pick it up and walk off. 135 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 1: And avoiding potential small talk situations to the point of 136 00:06:45,036 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 1: bladder discomfort. 137 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 2: I would sometimes I can go to loeb because I 138 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:50,396 Speaker 2: didn't want to have to walk past so many people's desks. 139 00:06:50,596 --> 00:06:53,836 Speaker 1: Claire even found herself turning to the unhealthy standby that 140 00:06:53,996 --> 00:06:55,876 Speaker 1: many of us use in social situations. 141 00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 2: Alcohol was a massive crupch. He was a lot of 142 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 2: sedating how I was feeling. 143 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:05,156 Speaker 1: But maladaptive coping strategies like these can only take a 144 00:07:05,196 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: person so far, and one fateful day, Claire had what 145 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 1: she likes to call a breakthrough breakdown. 146 00:07:10,956 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 2: It was a big acquisitions meeting and I had what 147 00:07:14,116 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 2: I now know was a paddic attack. I didn't know 148 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 2: what it was. Then I thought it was a stroke. 149 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 2: I thought, okay, so I'm going to die, but I 150 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 2: really don't want to make a scene. For some bizarre reason, 151 00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 2: my brain told me that in order to get out 152 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,476 Speaker 2: of the situation, I should stand up very slowly for 153 00:07:29,796 --> 00:07:32,956 Speaker 2: everyone and say in a posh voice, which I don't have. 154 00:07:34,236 --> 00:07:37,356 Speaker 2: I had the Neror verse, and I must leave once 155 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 2: and then leg it out of the room. 156 00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 1: Claire then continued legging it into the elevator and out 157 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:46,156 Speaker 1: of the building and then miles away down the street. 158 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:50,196 Speaker 2: I did not stop running because something had snapped and 159 00:07:50,356 --> 00:07:53,196 Speaker 2: I did not know what to do. So yeah, there 160 00:07:53,276 --> 00:07:55,876 Speaker 2: was no sort of sweeping that one under the rock. 161 00:07:56,316 --> 00:07:59,116 Speaker 1: The next morning, Claire went to her doctor. She explained 162 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:01,556 Speaker 1: how anxious she'd been at work for months, and how 163 00:08:01,596 --> 00:08:04,836 Speaker 1: sitting through that big meeting seemed to trigger a medical emergency. 164 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:07,196 Speaker 2: It was diagnosed in under thirty seconds, like this is 165 00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:09,836 Speaker 2: tact book, Social Anxiety Disorder and ye to punic attack 166 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:12,276 Speaker 2: and a big pop me didn't want to accept. 167 00:08:11,956 --> 00:08:15,396 Speaker 1: It at first. Claire was pretty self critical about her diagnosis, 168 00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:19,556 Speaker 1: but with time she developed more self compassion. Eventually, she 169 00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:22,036 Speaker 1: wanted to share that compassion with others who are going 170 00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:25,396 Speaker 1: through similar mental health challenges, so in twenty thirteen, she 171 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:28,796 Speaker 1: started a blog entitled We're All Mad Here and which 172 00:08:28,836 --> 00:08:31,836 Speaker 1: she shared her experiences with social anxiety as well as 173 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: lots of relatable advice. Thousands upon thousands of subscribers signed up. 174 00:08:37,036 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 1: The blog quickly turned into a book with the same name, 175 00:08:39,836 --> 00:08:42,636 Speaker 1: which sold out of its first print in just five days. 176 00:08:43,236 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 1: Claire went from denying her disorder to becoming an international 177 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:48,436 Speaker 1: expert social anxiety. 178 00:08:48,636 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 2: A lot of it comes from repressing who you are. 179 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 2: I think of social anxiety as you being like, I'm 180 00:08:55,836 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 2: in here, I'm in here, let me out, let me out. 181 00:08:58,236 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 2: Why are you punishing me? 182 00:08:59,836 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: But Claire was about to enter a period where that 183 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:03,916 Speaker 1: sort of punishment, as she called it, would die down 184 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:06,836 Speaker 1: a lot, because for Claire and pretty much every other 185 00:09:06,916 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 1: human on the planet, social interaction as usual was about 186 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 1: to undergo a massive change. 187 00:09:12,836 --> 00:09:15,996 Speaker 2: In lockdown, the world shut down on the conversations that 188 00:09:16,076 --> 00:09:19,836 Speaker 2: we had did tend to be more meaningful. It's funny 189 00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 2: he wouldn't say, how are you, because it's just like 190 00:09:22,596 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 2: I'm still stuck in my house, same as yesterday. Nothing 191 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 2: has changed. What else do you want to talk about? 192 00:09:28,996 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 2: You know, we have to be more creative. 193 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:34,316 Speaker 1: Claire thrived and the unique moment that was twenty twenty 194 00:09:34,756 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 1: in the midst of a global pandemic, people were feeling vulnerable, 195 00:09:38,076 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: so they tended to drop the usual pleasantries in order 196 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:43,796 Speaker 1: to connect a bit more deeply. Conversations were taking place 197 00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:46,476 Speaker 1: on a computer screen, but Claire still found them to 198 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 1: be more real, more like the ones she remembered with 199 00:09:49,676 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: her grandmother Evelyn back in the day. Claire hoped that 200 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:55,756 Speaker 1: the shift in small talk would last once everybody went 201 00:09:55,836 --> 00:09:56,996 Speaker 1: back into the real world. 202 00:09:57,316 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 2: I'll never forget I went into a Costa coffee shop 203 00:10:00,236 --> 00:10:03,276 Speaker 2: was one of my first interactions and locked eyes with someone, 204 00:10:03,356 --> 00:10:05,436 Speaker 2: and she's sort of like, how are you house weather, 205 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. I was just sort of like, I 206 00:10:07,156 --> 00:10:08,996 Speaker 2: can't remember what to say. 207 00:10:10,836 --> 00:10:13,996 Speaker 1: And Claire wasn't alone. Many people reported a drop in 208 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 1: their social skills post COVID, which meant that our surface 209 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 1: level small talk interactions became even more strained than they 210 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:25,596 Speaker 1: were before. After months of more authentic, seeming conversations, Claire's 211 00:10:25,636 --> 00:10:28,156 Speaker 1: return to the world of small talk felt like torture. 212 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:31,036 Speaker 1: And that is when Claire made the decision that there 213 00:10:31,116 --> 00:10:32,356 Speaker 1: had to be another way. 214 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:35,676 Speaker 2: And I'm sick of like being so horrible to myself 215 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:38,596 Speaker 2: about this. Right, We're deliberately not going to do it now. 216 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,756 Speaker 2: I'm not going into another social situation thinking, make sure 217 00:10:41,796 --> 00:10:43,756 Speaker 2: you seem normal for the first couple of minutes, so 218 00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:44,836 Speaker 2: then you can be yourself. 219 00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:48,756 Speaker 1: What if Claire thought I just got rid of small 220 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 1: talk altogether. What if for one entire month I chose 221 00:10:52,516 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 1: to start every new conversation by embodying my inner Evelyn 222 00:10:56,516 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 1: and just getting straight into the weird, authentic stuff that 223 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 1: I'd have more fun talking about a thought. 224 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:03,076 Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's do it as a full experiment, 225 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 2: and I really did have faith that a lot of 226 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:08,756 Speaker 2: people would respond positively. 227 00:11:09,156 --> 00:11:11,516 Speaker 1: How do conversations go when you force your partners to 228 00:11:11,596 --> 00:11:15,396 Speaker 1: go deeper, when you completely reject the usual pleasantries for 229 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 1: an entire month. Well we'll find out when the Happiness 230 00:11:19,156 --> 00:11:20,596 Speaker 1: Lab returns from the break. 231 00:11:29,116 --> 00:11:32,236 Speaker 3: I went in totally nervous. I had never been sweating 232 00:11:32,276 --> 00:11:34,036 Speaker 3: bullets before I talk as much as I had with 233 00:11:34,076 --> 00:11:37,196 Speaker 3: this one, Because when you run a live demonstration in 234 00:11:37,276 --> 00:11:40,036 Speaker 3: front of an audience, if it doesn't work for some reason, 235 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:41,196 Speaker 3: you are really sunk. 236 00:11:41,596 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: This is my friend and Happiness Lab regular, the psychologist 237 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 1: Nick Epley. He's telling me about the first time he 238 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 1: tried out what has now become one of his most 239 00:11:49,636 --> 00:11:51,676 Speaker 1: famous social connection interventions. 240 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:54,516 Speaker 3: I was out in Connecticut speaking at a financial decision 241 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:57,116 Speaker 3: making conference that I invited to come and speak at. 242 00:11:57,636 --> 00:12:00,876 Speaker 3: And we've got a room of maybe fifty sixty people 243 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:04,836 Speaker 3: sitting there. These are all high level executives running pension funds. 244 00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:07,196 Speaker 3: I mean, these are serious folks. I was really the 245 00:12:07,276 --> 00:12:10,636 Speaker 3: only one not wearing a suit that day, and they 246 00:12:10,676 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 3: had not really anticipated that they'd be bringing somebody in 247 00:12:14,196 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 3: to do touchy feely sort of things. But that's what 248 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 3: I was there to do. 249 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 1: Nick studies the psychological effects of engaging in the sorts 250 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:24,276 Speaker 1: of social situations that we assume will make us feel awkward. 251 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:27,956 Speaker 1: In previous Happiness Lab episodes, Nick has shared his research 252 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:30,476 Speaker 1: on what happens when people strike up a conversation with 253 00:12:30,556 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 1: a stranger, or sincerely expressed gratitude to someone they have 254 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: it spoken to for a while, or ask a random 255 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:39,156 Speaker 1: person on the street for help with a vulnerable situation. 256 00:12:39,916 --> 00:12:42,756 Speaker 1: In all of these cases, Nick finds that people's interactions 257 00:12:42,836 --> 00:12:46,396 Speaker 1: feel much less awkward and much more enjoyable than they think. 258 00:12:47,116 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 1: But Nick was also interested in what happens when we 259 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: ratchet up the awkwardness of conversations even higher. What happens 260 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 1: when we channel are inner, evolent eastoms and chat with 261 00:12:57,196 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 1: complete strangers about the most vulnerable topics possible. Nick was 262 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 1: going to find out using the titans of the financial 263 00:13:04,556 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 1: industry as his guinea pigs. 264 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 3: We start talking, I present some of my early research, 265 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 3: and then I tell him what we're going to do 266 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:12,916 Speaker 3: that in a minute. We are going to put up 267 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:15,236 Speaker 3: some questions on the screen, and I'm going to pair 268 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 3: you up with another person and you're going to have 269 00:13:17,356 --> 00:13:19,196 Speaker 3: a conversation with him about these questions. 270 00:13:19,396 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 1: But the questions Nick put up on the screen, we're 271 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 1: part of the usual small talk script, things like where 272 00:13:24,436 --> 00:13:27,196 Speaker 1: do you work? Or how is your commute? His questions 273 00:13:27,236 --> 00:13:30,076 Speaker 1: included what is one of the most embarrassing moments of 274 00:13:30,116 --> 00:13:32,836 Speaker 1: your life? If you could undo one of the mistakes 275 00:13:32,876 --> 00:13:34,796 Speaker 1: you've made in life, what would it be and why? 276 00:13:35,476 --> 00:13:38,436 Speaker 1: And can you describe the last time you cried in 277 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 1: front of another person. 278 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 3: I mean, it's not the most energetic room to begin with, 279 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:46,356 Speaker 3: but you could just feel the energy just drain right out. 280 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:48,036 Speaker 3: There was a guy sitting right in front of me. 281 00:13:48,116 --> 00:13:50,436 Speaker 3: I will never forget it. As soon as I put 282 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 3: up this question, everybody kind of grown. But he yelled out, 283 00:13:53,596 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 3: oh expletive, yeah, Oh I don't know if I'm alzed. 284 00:13:57,836 --> 00:13:59,076 Speaker 3: Oh shit, is what he said. 285 00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 1: But Nick forged on. He began the exercise by having 286 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:05,996 Speaker 1: the executives make some predictions on a scale of one 287 00:14:06,076 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 1: to ten. How much do you think you're going to 288 00:14:07,836 --> 00:14:11,236 Speaker 1: enjoy this vulnerable converse. How connected will you feel to 289 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:14,996 Speaker 1: the person afterwards, and how awkward will you feel? After 290 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:18,356 Speaker 1: completing their surveys, the businessmen paired up and got chatting. 291 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 3: Started a little bit slow at first, but then things 292 00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:25,996 Speaker 3: just started to shift, like the room just started to turn. 293 00:14:26,516 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 3: It got lively by about fifteen minutes, which is when 294 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 3: I thought I was going to bring them back. They 295 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 3: were going so strong in their conversations. I couldn't figure 296 00:14:33,756 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 3: out how to get him back, right, Like I had 297 00:14:34,996 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 3: never faced this before. I'm saying, all right, clapping my hands, 298 00:14:37,956 --> 00:14:40,316 Speaker 3: time to come back. Eventually, I get the microphone and 299 00:14:40,316 --> 00:14:42,236 Speaker 3: I got to do a countdown from five, which I 300 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 3: learned from my kids kindergarten teacher works. And then finally 301 00:14:45,316 --> 00:14:47,836 Speaker 3: got them back. And then I had them report how 302 00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:51,196 Speaker 3: the conversations had actually gone, how awkward they actually were, 303 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 3: how much they actually enjoyed the conversation. The gaps were stunning. 304 00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:58,996 Speaker 1: The execs predicted that their conversations would feel mediocre at best, 305 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:02,196 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't enjoy the exercise all that much because 306 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 1: they'd be feeling awkward the entire time. But after the 307 00:15:05,556 --> 00:15:09,836 Speaker 1: exercise was complete, they reported that their actual conversation were 308 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:12,876 Speaker 1: far less awkward and far more delightful than they expected 309 00:15:13,556 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 1: to their absolute shock. Ditching the usual small talk felt great. 310 00:15:17,636 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 3: You didn't even need to look at the data. You 311 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 3: could feel it in the room. These people who had 312 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:23,876 Speaker 3: started out very nervous, you could see them in their 313 00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:26,036 Speaker 3: conversations that they had just come to life. I remember 314 00:15:26,076 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 3: one couple over on the left, one pair they hugged 315 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:32,076 Speaker 3: at the end, which like, these are not huggers. Right, 316 00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:34,076 Speaker 3: there was a guy up in the way back who 317 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:37,236 Speaker 3: was tearing up. Everybody was shaking hands when they were done. 318 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:39,716 Speaker 3: You didn't need to see the data. You could see 319 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:41,636 Speaker 3: the data right in front of you. 320 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: Psychologists have known about the connective power of deep conversations 321 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 1: like nicks for some time. Consider, for example, what's known 322 00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:53,156 Speaker 1: as the fast friends procedure. This now famous technique was 323 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 1: first developed back in the nineties by psychologists Art and 324 00:15:56,556 --> 00:15:59,316 Speaker 1: Elaine Aaron, a married couple who met and fell in 325 00:15:59,396 --> 00:16:02,596 Speaker 1: love rather quickly when they were young researchers, an experience 326 00:16:02,636 --> 00:16:05,036 Speaker 1: that got the pair interested and the factors that caused 327 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: people to connect rapidly. Here's how the Erin's fast friends 328 00:16:08,556 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 1: procedure were works two strangers are paired together and asked 329 00:16:12,076 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 1: to discuss a series of thirty six deep questions with 330 00:16:14,836 --> 00:16:18,756 Speaker 1: one another. The questions start off relatively casually, things like 331 00:16:18,796 --> 00:16:20,916 Speaker 1: would you like to be famous? Or if you could 332 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 1: pick anyone in the world, who would you want as 333 00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 1: a dinner guest, But as conversation continues, the strangers start 334 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 1: going even deeper, asking each other questions more like the 335 00:16:30,716 --> 00:16:33,956 Speaker 1: ones Nick used with his executives, things like how do 336 00:16:33,996 --> 00:16:36,716 Speaker 1: you feel about your relationship with your mother? And if 337 00:16:36,756 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 1: you die tonight, what would you most regret not having 338 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 1: told someone right. 339 00:16:40,396 --> 00:16:43,756 Speaker 3: They start from pretty shallow, and then they slowly escalate, 340 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 3: like a seven forty seven jet taken off the runway, 341 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 3: slow and steady. 342 00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:51,196 Speaker 1: The errands correctly hypothesize that this slow increase of mutual 343 00:16:51,276 --> 00:16:54,676 Speaker 1: disclosure would cause people to feel more connected, But the 344 00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:59,156 Speaker 1: researchers also assumed the other variables would matter for connection factors, 345 00:16:59,236 --> 00:17:02,196 Speaker 1: like how interested people were in doing the procedure or 346 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 1: how similar people's answers were to one another. 347 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 3: And those things just did not at all. The only 348 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:10,356 Speaker 3: thing that mattered is what we are talking about, And 349 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 3: at the end of all of those questions that people 350 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:15,756 Speaker 3: who had talked about more meaningful things. They felt much 351 00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:16,596 Speaker 3: much closer. 352 00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:19,236 Speaker 1: Nick and his colleagues have found similar effects using this 353 00:17:19,356 --> 00:17:23,196 Speaker 1: shorter and more extreme version of the fast friends procedure. 354 00:17:23,476 --> 00:17:26,116 Speaker 3: We don't take the seven forty seven off the runway approach. 355 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:28,516 Speaker 3: We're more like, hop into a helicopter right and you're 356 00:17:28,516 --> 00:17:32,436 Speaker 3: going to go deep right away. And that looks like 357 00:17:32,556 --> 00:17:35,436 Speaker 3: it works. I have had people say this was the 358 00:17:35,476 --> 00:17:39,556 Speaker 3: best conversation I have ever had. I've had people in 359 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:42,956 Speaker 3: these sessions tell me that they told somebody something they 360 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:44,676 Speaker 3: have never told somebody else before. 361 00:17:45,556 --> 00:17:49,396 Speaker 1: Across thousands of participants, both in laboratory settings and at 362 00:17:49,436 --> 00:17:52,916 Speaker 1: real life events like that financial conference, Nick's results are 363 00:17:52,956 --> 00:17:57,276 Speaker 1: nearly always the same. Deep conversations consistently make us feel 364 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:00,036 Speaker 1: happier and more connected than polite small talk does. 365 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:02,716 Speaker 3: What's interesting to me is that you can have those 366 00:18:02,796 --> 00:18:07,316 Speaker 3: conversations almost any day that you want to, if you 367 00:18:07,436 --> 00:18:08,076 Speaker 3: choose to do it. 368 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: But it seems like most of the time we don't 369 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:13,396 Speaker 1: choose to do it. Nick says, we often get stuck 370 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 1: in the small talk mode that socially anxious blogger Clear 371 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:17,916 Speaker 1: Eastam detested so much. 372 00:18:18,316 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 3: So we talk about current events, we talk about what 373 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 3: you do for a living, right, but not do you 374 00:18:22,396 --> 00:18:24,476 Speaker 3: love what you do for a living? Is this your 375 00:18:24,556 --> 00:18:28,396 Speaker 3: dream job? Small talk is all the outside stuff. Deep 376 00:18:28,516 --> 00:18:31,556 Speaker 3: talk is going into where your heart sits, to where 377 00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 3: your beliefs sit, to where your values sit, to where 378 00:18:34,636 --> 00:18:37,316 Speaker 3: what's really important to you sits. It means going deeper 379 00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:40,556 Speaker 3: inside somebody's mind, away from the superficial stuff to something deep. 380 00:18:40,836 --> 00:18:43,196 Speaker 3: And you can fail at small talk if you don't 381 00:18:43,196 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 3: feel up on current events, or you don't know something 382 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:48,556 Speaker 3: about somebody's job, or you didn't go out and see 383 00:18:48,556 --> 00:18:51,716 Speaker 3: this movie that somebody else saw, or you don't watch sports. Right, 384 00:18:51,996 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 3: you can fail on that stuff because it's about news 385 00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:57,076 Speaker 3: and things. I think is actually harder to fail at 386 00:18:57,116 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 3: deep talk. 387 00:18:57,676 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: So these deep conversations make us feel really good. But 388 00:19:00,116 --> 00:19:02,436 Speaker 1: how often are people having these deep conversations? 389 00:19:03,196 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 3: Well, certainly not as often as they would want to. 390 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 3: So at the end of these conversations we ask people 391 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,156 Speaker 3: how deep was this conversation? They say, you really deep? 392 00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:14,676 Speaker 3: So this is, you know, on a zero to ten scale, 393 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:17,236 Speaker 3: we're talking like a seven. That's how deep this was. 394 00:19:17,476 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 3: And we ask them how deep are the conversations you 395 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:22,836 Speaker 3: typically have? They say, like A two not very deep 396 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,236 Speaker 3: at all. And then we ask them how deep are 397 00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 3: the conversations you would like to be having, and they say, well, 398 00:19:30,076 --> 00:19:32,756 Speaker 3: maybe not quite as deep as that one on average, 399 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 3: and we don't have to talk about the last time 400 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 3: we cried in front of another person all the time. 401 00:19:36,396 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 3: But they say more like a sixth way deeper than 402 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 3: the conversations they're typically having. And that's what's so interesting 403 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 3: to me as a psychologist. If these are the conversations 404 00:19:45,956 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 3: you want to be having, and you enjoy them a lot, 405 00:19:48,716 --> 00:19:49,996 Speaker 3: why are you not having them? 406 00:19:51,316 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 1: The first reason Nick says is that we have some 407 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:58,156 Speaker 1: unusually miscalibrated beliefs about how good we'll be at conversation. Generally, 408 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:00,916 Speaker 1: we tend to assume we'll be pretty bad at it, 409 00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:03,516 Speaker 1: which is a result that as a psychologist I find 410 00:20:03,556 --> 00:20:07,036 Speaker 1: it be a very weird effect. Usually, when researchers ask 411 00:20:07,116 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 1: people how good they are at some desirable t trait 412 00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: relative to the average person, they tend to overestimate that ability. 413 00:20:13,636 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 1: They show what social psychologists call the above average effect. 414 00:20:17,676 --> 00:20:20,556 Speaker 1: For example, one study found that around seventy percent of 415 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:24,716 Speaker 1: people think they're above average at performing their job, cooking, reading, 416 00:20:25,036 --> 00:20:28,756 Speaker 1: and even taking care of personal hygiene. Of course, seventy 417 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 1: percent of people being above average and all these traits 418 00:20:31,636 --> 00:20:35,236 Speaker 1: is statistically impossible, but people don't seem to realize this, 419 00:20:36,036 --> 00:20:39,676 Speaker 1: at least for most desirable traits. But when you ask 420 00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:41,836 Speaker 1: the same people how good they are relative to the 421 00:20:41,916 --> 00:20:46,196 Speaker 1: average person at conversation, you find the exact opposite effect. 422 00:20:46,436 --> 00:20:51,516 Speaker 3: We're above average on all these things leadership, ability and driving, yes, 423 00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:54,236 Speaker 3: the ability to get along well with others, right, wear 424 00:20:54,316 --> 00:20:56,116 Speaker 3: all stars at all these other things. But when it 425 00:20:56,196 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 3: comes to talking to people, the thing we do so 426 00:20:58,756 --> 00:21:01,436 Speaker 3: much of, people think they're terrible. So why does conversation 427 00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:04,356 Speaker 3: give us so much self doubt? So part of it, 428 00:21:04,436 --> 00:21:07,876 Speaker 3: I think comes from failing to understand reciprocity. The norm 429 00:21:07,916 --> 00:21:13,676 Speaker 3: of reciprocity is the dominant social behavioral norm on this planet. 430 00:21:14,116 --> 00:21:16,236 Speaker 3: So if I smile to you, what do you do 431 00:21:16,356 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 3: back to me? You smile back. If I don't smile 432 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:19,956 Speaker 3: at you, what do you do to me? You don't smile? 433 00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 3: I say hi? Do you say hi back to me? Right? 434 00:21:22,316 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 3: If you want somebody to be friendly with you, be 435 00:21:24,156 --> 00:21:27,036 Speaker 3: friendly with him first. But people don't seem to appreciate 436 00:21:27,156 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 3: the power of that norm. We don't seem to realize 437 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:31,916 Speaker 3: if you open up to somebody else in conversation first, 438 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:34,516 Speaker 3: they tend to open up to you. In return, you've 439 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:37,436 Speaker 3: signaled that you trust them, that you're interested in them, 440 00:21:37,756 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 3: and they then take an interest in you. 441 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: So much of our conversation pessimism stems from the fact 442 00:21:42,956 --> 00:21:46,316 Speaker 1: that we don't realize that our partners will happily reciprocate 443 00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 1: the work that we put into trying to connect with them. 444 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:52,396 Speaker 3: We think we're paddling upstream a canoe with one paddle, 445 00:21:52,876 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 3: and what we forget is there somebody else in the 446 00:21:54,836 --> 00:21:57,596 Speaker 3: boat with us too, who is helping us. You don't 447 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:00,236 Speaker 3: have to drive the entire conversation. You can. If you'd 448 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 3: like a conversation to be more interesting and meaningful, you 449 00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:06,556 Speaker 3: can do that. You have the power to do that 450 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:09,196 Speaker 3: if you try. But what we don't appreciate is that 451 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:12,396 Speaker 3: when I open up to you, you're going to open back. 452 00:22:13,276 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 3: We're going to be paddling this canoe together, this conversation together, 453 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:18,276 Speaker 3: and that's what people don't seem to realize. 454 00:22:18,676 --> 00:22:21,476 Speaker 1: We also forget that how we steer a social interaction 455 00:22:21,716 --> 00:22:24,676 Speaker 1: will affect how our partners react. Nick did a clever 456 00:22:24,756 --> 00:22:25,836 Speaker 1: study that tested this. 457 00:22:26,476 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 3: This was one where we sent people around the museum 458 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 3: and we asked them to just assess how friendly are 459 00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 3: other people at the museum today. 460 00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:37,436 Speaker 1: In one condition, Nick coached his subjects to be friendlier 461 00:22:37,516 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 1: than they would normally be. They were told to smile 462 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:42,356 Speaker 1: at the other people they ran into and to interact 463 00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:44,076 Speaker 1: by saying hello whenever they could. 464 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 3: In the other condition, they were just like detectives. They 465 00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:51,436 Speaker 3: just went around, walked around and just noticed how friendly 466 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 3: people seemed to be, But we didn't tell them to 467 00:22:53,996 --> 00:22:56,236 Speaker 3: engage with other people. When they came back to us, 468 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:59,036 Speaker 3: they reported having a more positive walk when they were 469 00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:02,236 Speaker 3: smiling and saying hello to people. But they also reported 470 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:05,516 Speaker 3: that people at the museum were friendlier that day than 471 00:23:05,556 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 3: people in the control condition. Simultaneously. That makes all the 472 00:23:09,516 --> 00:23:11,916 Speaker 3: sense in the world and no sense in the world. Right, 473 00:23:12,076 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 3: there were not different people at the museum that day. 474 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:19,996 Speaker 3: You made people different, and you made them be friendlier 475 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 3: by engaging with them. First. It wasn't that there were 476 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:26,396 Speaker 3: friendlier people at the museum. It's that you were friendlier. 477 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:29,396 Speaker 3: You used the power you had to make people friendlier, 478 00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 3: and you didn't recognize that. 479 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 1: Another thing that people don't seem to realize about the 480 00:23:33,556 --> 00:23:36,676 Speaker 1: norm of reciprocity is how it affects the grace people 481 00:23:36,716 --> 00:23:39,876 Speaker 1: are willing to give us during social interactions. When we're 482 00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 1: about to go deep with someone new, we often start 483 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 1: to hear what Nick likes to call the cringe voice, 484 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:48,076 Speaker 1: that voice inside our head that cringes as soon as 485 00:23:48,116 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 1: it thinks of all the things that could go wrong 486 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 1: when we start to engage in this new conversation. But 487 00:23:53,236 --> 00:23:56,916 Speaker 1: the cringe voice doesn't take into account reciprocity norms. It 488 00:23:57,036 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: forgets that if we speak to someone openly and authentically, 489 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:03,956 Speaker 1: that person tends to respond with kindness, not with judgment. 490 00:24:04,636 --> 00:24:07,476 Speaker 1: All of these findings have convinced Nick that it's time 491 00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 1: for all of us to ditch the usual small talk 492 00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:13,556 Speaker 1: in favor of deeper conversations. He outlines his advice for 493 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 1: how to do this in his excellent new book A 494 00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 1: Little More Social, How small choices create unexpected happiness, health, 495 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:23,756 Speaker 1: and connection. Many of Nick's tips involve finding ways to 496 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:27,636 Speaker 1: go deeper in conversation a little more quickly, often much 497 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:29,476 Speaker 1: more quickly than we assume is appropriate. 498 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:33,676 Speaker 3: There are places where small talk works, and the place 499 00:24:33,716 --> 00:24:36,436 Speaker 3: where small talk works is often the first question, the 500 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:38,116 Speaker 3: first thing you ask somebody about. What does it you 501 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:40,556 Speaker 3: do for a living? Where is it you live? What 502 00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 3: do you like to do? 503 00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: Right? 504 00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:44,476 Speaker 3: It's often a good launch bad. It's a good starting 505 00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 3: point to engage with somebody, and it also allows you 506 00:24:47,516 --> 00:24:49,396 Speaker 3: to signal that you know you're not a crazy person. 507 00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:52,396 Speaker 3: It allows you to show some interest. But you can 508 00:24:52,556 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 3: just get to deep, meaningful stuff much faster than you think. 509 00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:58,876 Speaker 3: And so if you would like to have more, deep, meaningful, 510 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 3: better conversations in your life, you can choose to do it. 511 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 3: And it's often on that second question. You can do 512 00:25:04,636 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 3: it in two steps. I think usually, so what is 513 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 3: it you do for a living? Do you love what 514 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 3: you do for you're living? What was your favorite part 515 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:12,716 Speaker 3: about it? What did you love the most about it? 516 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:14,836 Speaker 3: You find out kind of what people are about, and 517 00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:15,916 Speaker 3: then you find out why. 518 00:25:16,116 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: Have your conversation has gotten better since choosing to go deeper? 519 00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 3: Absolutely, for one thing, I've learned that having these deeper 520 00:25:23,636 --> 00:25:27,436 Speaker 3: conversations is a lot about the mindset that you take 521 00:25:27,476 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 3: when you approach somebody else. If you start taking an 522 00:25:30,556 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 3: interest in people, recognizing that most people are kind and 523 00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:36,396 Speaker 3: they're decent and they're interesting, they know things you don't. 524 00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:40,116 Speaker 3: Your whole world starts to look different. You see strangers 525 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:43,876 Speaker 3: sitting on the bus with you who are not like 526 00:25:43,956 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 3: these scary, creepy people, but these are fellow human beings 527 00:25:47,436 --> 00:25:51,116 Speaker 3: who have interesting things to tell you. And suddenly the 528 00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:53,996 Speaker 3: world looks friendlier and nicer and kinder. And I've talked 529 00:25:53,996 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 3: to so many people who have talked to people a 530 00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:58,196 Speaker 3: lot who go through the same experience. It just changes 531 00:25:58,236 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 3: the way you see people. You learn very quickly. You 532 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 3: can get to know people, and your conversations are just 533 00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:07,196 Speaker 3: much better. Your connections with people are just much better. 534 00:26:07,276 --> 00:26:10,196 Speaker 3: You can share things with people that maybe you never 535 00:26:10,276 --> 00:26:12,556 Speaker 3: would have before. And I do this all the time. 536 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,316 Speaker 3: I've lost when it comes to deep conversation. I've lost 537 00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:18,156 Speaker 3: the cringe voice. I still have it anymore. 538 00:26:19,676 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 1: Conversations and connections that feel much better and fully turning 539 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 1: off that cringe voice that makes us feel terrible in 540 00:26:25,836 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 1: social interactions. I gotta admit all that sounds pretty good. 541 00:26:30,356 --> 00:26:32,756 Speaker 1: But Nick is a world expert on the science of connection. 542 00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:35,876 Speaker 1: It makes sense that he can pull off deeper conversation 543 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: without his cringe voice butting in. But would the same 544 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:42,796 Speaker 1: deep talk strategy work for someone who's been clinically diagnosed 545 00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:44,756 Speaker 1: with an exceptionally loud cringe voice. 546 00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:46,516 Speaker 2: Your loser, you're weird? 547 00:26:46,916 --> 00:26:49,996 Speaker 1: Could committing to deep conversation for an entire month work 548 00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 1: for a person who spent decades being mortally terrified of 549 00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:54,076 Speaker 1: small talk. 550 00:26:54,356 --> 00:26:56,516 Speaker 2: It was like, you've got eighteen more days, Clere. You 551 00:26:56,636 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 2: said you would do this, so we're going to finish it. 552 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:01,916 Speaker 1: Blogger Claire Eastam will return to tell us how her 553 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:05,636 Speaker 1: small talk ditching experiment went when the Happiness Lad returns 554 00:27:05,876 --> 00:27:17,316 Speaker 1: from the break. When we last left Mental Health blog 555 00:27:17,356 --> 00:27:20,596 Speaker 1: or Claire Eastam, she'd had an epiphany. Feeling tired of 556 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:23,756 Speaker 1: the pressure she regularly put on herself during social interactions, 557 00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:28,036 Speaker 1: Claire decided to embark on an experiment. For one entire month. 558 00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:30,796 Speaker 1: She would replace all small talk with the sort of weirder, 559 00:27:30,996 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 1: more authentic questions that would make her grandmother Evelyne proud. 560 00:27:34,676 --> 00:27:38,596 Speaker 2: It's going to be selfishly something I'm interested in. Genuinely, 561 00:27:39,196 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 2: if they asked me a small talk question, I will 562 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:43,836 Speaker 2: twist it without being rude. 563 00:27:44,556 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 1: Her experiment began on the night of a friend's art show, 564 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,996 Speaker 1: exactly the kind of social situation that Claire would usually dread. 565 00:27:51,236 --> 00:27:52,956 Speaker 2: Because it was an art show. Everyone was going in 566 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:56,156 Speaker 2: with what don't you think they ought? Obviously? And I 567 00:27:56,196 --> 00:27:57,356 Speaker 2: don't know anything about ah. 568 00:27:58,036 --> 00:28:01,236 Speaker 1: Ignoring her usual cringe voice, Claire launched into her first 569 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:02,796 Speaker 1: attempt to go a little deeper. 570 00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:04,516 Speaker 2: This woman said to me, what do you think that 571 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 2: they ought? And I said, do you remember your at 572 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 2: teacher from school? I can remember, mind, and then she 573 00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:11,156 Speaker 2: suddenly just switched. 574 00:28:11,556 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 1: The woman lit up as she talked about what she 575 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 1: remembered from her elementary school art class. She then asked 576 00:28:16,836 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 1: Claire about her own experiences. They laughed with one another 577 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:22,876 Speaker 1: as the conversation flowed. It was the first time that 578 00:28:22,956 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 1: Claire had actually had fun at a social event. As 579 00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 1: she walked home from that art show, she realized that 580 00:28:28,756 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 1: day one of her experiment had been a huge success. 581 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:34,316 Speaker 2: We're going to keep doing it because it's lighting us up. 582 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:37,356 Speaker 1: In the weeks that followed, Claire found ways to shift 583 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 1: all manner of shallow conversations into topics that went a 584 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:43,316 Speaker 1: bit deeper. When a barista asked her how she was 585 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:46,636 Speaker 1: enjoying the weather, she asked him what his favorite season. 586 00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:47,196 Speaker 3: Was and why? 587 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:49,996 Speaker 1: Or take the guy who asked Claire what she'd been 588 00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:51,156 Speaker 1: watching on TV lately. 589 00:28:51,596 --> 00:28:54,156 Speaker 2: He's talking about killing Eve the TV show. And then 590 00:28:54,196 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 2: I was like, if you could kill someone and you 591 00:28:57,036 --> 00:28:58,796 Speaker 2: could pretty much get away with it, like, what would 592 00:28:58,796 --> 00:29:01,156 Speaker 2: be the plan? And he was just like, I've got 593 00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:03,356 Speaker 2: a complete plan. I know what I would do. She's like, 594 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 2: that's a ball. You need to get barrels of acid. 595 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 2: And they explained how I would get said acid because 596 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:11,156 Speaker 2: he's like, no body, no crime. It's like and it's 597 00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:13,436 Speaker 2: the stomach that's the hardest bit to get rid of, 598 00:29:13,876 --> 00:29:15,436 Speaker 2: so you need to be able to like chop it. 599 00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 2: It was really graphic and I. 600 00:29:17,196 --> 00:29:23,836 Speaker 1: Was like, wow, yeah, wow, but potential ax murder interactions aside, 601 00:29:24,156 --> 00:29:27,836 Speaker 1: Claire deeply enjoyed just how positively other people reacted when 602 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:30,156 Speaker 1: she shut down the usual shallow conversation. 603 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:33,556 Speaker 2: God, the amount people who said to me, oh, I 604 00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:36,276 Speaker 2: don't I small talk. Either this is brilliant, this is 605 00:29:36,316 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 2: so refreshing. 606 00:29:37,476 --> 00:29:40,076 Speaker 1: Or take Tracy the middle aged woman. Claire decided to 607 00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:41,476 Speaker 1: approach her local cafe. 608 00:29:41,756 --> 00:29:44,596 Speaker 2: I'd seen her quite a few times and I was like, 609 00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 2: she's really cool. Well, she's really confident, so I never 610 00:29:48,276 --> 00:29:51,276 Speaker 2: really approached her. But because it was the science, damn it. 611 00:29:53,036 --> 00:29:55,956 Speaker 1: Claire started by asking Tracy what she did for exercise. 612 00:29:56,476 --> 00:29:58,876 Speaker 1: Tracy explained that she thought of herself as a member 613 00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:01,436 Speaker 1: of the five Am club, those people who go for 614 00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: walks super early in the morning, even when it's still 615 00:30:04,236 --> 00:30:04,596 Speaker 1: dark out. 616 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 2: I was like, so, how do you keep yourself safe? 617 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:10,796 Speaker 2: And she's like, carry a rock. You've been serious. She's like, oh, yeah, yeah, 618 00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:13,036 Speaker 2: and I let people see that I'm carrying this rock 619 00:30:13,356 --> 00:30:16,516 Speaker 2: like a brick. And then from there she sort of 620 00:30:16,596 --> 00:30:19,876 Speaker 2: told me how somebody had tried to get her in 621 00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:23,036 Speaker 2: a van when she was in her thirties and she 622 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:27,556 Speaker 2: beat the shit out of him, and I was just intrigued, 623 00:30:27,596 --> 00:30:29,476 Speaker 2: and I ended up being honest with her about I'm 624 00:30:29,476 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 2: actually doing this experiment with smart talk, as she said, 625 00:30:33,156 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 2: I love it, and then explained that I'm quite socially 626 00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 2: anxious person. She said, I'm not getting that vibe. 627 00:30:38,716 --> 00:30:40,996 Speaker 1: At all, and I love having these kind of conversations. 628 00:30:41,396 --> 00:30:43,756 Speaker 1: And that wouldn't be the last conversation that Claire had 629 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:44,276 Speaker 1: with Tracy. 630 00:30:44,716 --> 00:30:47,156 Speaker 2: We met up a couple of days later and talked 631 00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:50,476 Speaker 2: for two hours, like NonStop or coffee about everything from 632 00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:56,876 Speaker 2: star signs to travel to intergalactic stuff to past life, 633 00:30:57,036 --> 00:31:02,076 Speaker 2: to spirituality, to films. He was just very childlike. You know, 634 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:05,196 Speaker 2: come when you have a sleepover when you're a teenager 635 00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 2: and you just like top anything and it's like addictive. 636 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:11,196 Speaker 2: It was amazing. 637 00:31:11,916 --> 00:31:14,596 Speaker 1: Claire admits that not all her attempts at deep conversations 638 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:16,236 Speaker 1: went as well as the one with Tracy. 639 00:31:16,636 --> 00:31:18,436 Speaker 2: Not everyone's going to like you, which is a really 640 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:22,076 Speaker 2: basic thing to say, But it took me a really 641 00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:26,116 Speaker 2: long time to accept that one Not everybody's going to 642 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:30,436 Speaker 2: like you, And that's okay. It's about finding one person 643 00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:32,716 Speaker 2: you connect with in the room. I'll take that. 644 00:31:33,036 --> 00:31:35,356 Speaker 1: Claire has also learned not to beat herself up when 645 00:31:35,396 --> 00:31:37,836 Speaker 1: a conversation doesn't go as well as she expected. 646 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,396 Speaker 2: It's all right, you don't have to continue talking to 647 00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:43,916 Speaker 2: this person. You can politely leave now. I just think, oh, 648 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:45,996 Speaker 2: fair enough, and then on to the next. 649 00:31:46,356 --> 00:31:49,676 Speaker 1: Claire's experiment also taught her the same insight that psychologist 650 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:52,636 Speaker 1: Nick Epley shared earlier, that she was more in control 651 00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:55,756 Speaker 1: of her everyday interactions than she thought. That she wasn't 652 00:31:55,796 --> 00:31:59,196 Speaker 1: the only one paddling that conversational canoe, that she had 653 00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:01,956 Speaker 1: the agency to choose where the discussion went, and to 654 00:32:02,036 --> 00:32:04,956 Speaker 1: steer interactions towards topics that felt more authentic. 655 00:32:05,236 --> 00:32:08,916 Speaker 2: It made it fun again. And for someone with social anxiety, 656 00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:11,396 Speaker 2: it can feel like they're a bit of a minefield, 657 00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:12,836 Speaker 2: and this just made fun. 658 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:16,156 Speaker 1: Indeed, Claire had so much fun with her experiment that 659 00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,236 Speaker 1: she wanted to try out some of her favorite cheap 660 00:32:18,316 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 1: questions with yours. 661 00:32:19,476 --> 00:32:21,676 Speaker 2: Truly, because I'm getting a good vibe with you. 662 00:32:22,596 --> 00:32:23,276 Speaker 3: Oh that's good. 663 00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:27,676 Speaker 2: If you could have any mythological great shirt as a pet, 664 00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 2: what would. 665 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:28,596 Speaker 3: You go for? 666 00:32:29,676 --> 00:32:29,876 Speaker 2: Oh? 667 00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:34,996 Speaker 1: Very interesting? Most of them are not domesticated, so they're 668 00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:37,716 Speaker 1: gonna like make a mess of the house and you know, 669 00:32:37,956 --> 00:32:40,316 Speaker 1: poop and pee on the floor and stuff like that. Yeah, 670 00:32:40,356 --> 00:32:43,436 Speaker 1: so I might go for like a small one, like 671 00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:46,756 Speaker 1: a fairy. Like a fairy. Yeah, I feel like a fairy. 672 00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 1: You could throw a diaper on her and be all right, Yeah, 673 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:50,636 Speaker 1: what's yours do? 674 00:32:50,836 --> 00:32:54,476 Speaker 2: I have absolutely no full control, so dragon obviously and 675 00:32:54,676 --> 00:32:56,596 Speaker 2: just deal with the chaos that comes with that and 676 00:32:57,196 --> 00:33:02,596 Speaker 2: burn places to the ground and straight away, that tells 677 00:33:02,636 --> 00:33:04,956 Speaker 2: me more about your personality, and it tells you more 678 00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:08,916 Speaker 2: about my Yes, like you're a very you're very thoughtful, practical. 679 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:11,996 Speaker 1: Chaos agent who's totally fine with burning things down in 680 00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:12,556 Speaker 1: her own home. 681 00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:15,156 Speaker 2: Absolutely no common sense. Yes. 682 00:33:16,676 --> 00:33:19,276 Speaker 1: Another of Claire's favorite get to know you questions is this, 683 00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:21,916 Speaker 1: as a kid, did you ever have a crush on 684 00:33:21,996 --> 00:33:22,956 Speaker 1: a cartoon character? 685 00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:26,676 Speaker 2: Oh, Robin Hood, the Disney Me too, the Fox? 686 00:33:27,076 --> 00:33:28,596 Speaker 1: Yes, the same same. 687 00:33:29,076 --> 00:33:30,716 Speaker 2: Do you know you're the first person who said that. 688 00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:33,116 Speaker 2: Most people look at me like no, No, I'm totally 689 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:38,636 Speaker 2: come on, you can fight and he's cheeky and he's 690 00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:41,076 Speaker 2: the one for me if I could change species. 691 00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 1: And secretly I think my husband looks a little bit 692 00:33:43,636 --> 00:33:44,956 Speaker 1: like the fox from Robin Hood. 693 00:33:45,196 --> 00:33:45,396 Speaker 3: Yeah. 694 00:33:45,836 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 1: I have to admit chatting with Claire about all these 695 00:33:47,756 --> 00:33:50,596 Speaker 1: weird questions was really fun, and not just because I 696 00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:53,676 Speaker 1: got to talk about my cartoon crush. I genuinely felt 697 00:33:53,716 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 1: like those inquiries made us feel closer, like they could 698 00:33:56,556 --> 00:33:59,316 Speaker 1: be part of some new Fast Friends procedure updated for 699 00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:02,876 Speaker 1: the twenty first century. In fact, I liked Claire's questions 700 00:34:02,956 --> 00:34:05,116 Speaker 1: so much that I decided to try some of them 701 00:34:05,156 --> 00:34:07,476 Speaker 1: out with the deep talk expert himself. 702 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 3: These are not my approved crash no no, no no, 703 00:34:10,076 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 3: but maybe you'll put them in. Some of them are 704 00:34:12,036 --> 00:34:12,476 Speaker 3: pretty good. 705 00:34:12,876 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 1: This was one that I thought was very diagnostic. If 706 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 1: you could have one mythological creature as a pet, which 707 00:34:17,716 --> 00:34:18,276 Speaker 1: creature would you? 708 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:18,796 Speaker 2: Oh? 709 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:22,116 Speaker 3: My goodness, I would like the horse with the wings. 710 00:34:22,156 --> 00:34:25,356 Speaker 3: That's Pegasus, right, That's what my husband said. Yeah, who 711 00:34:25,396 --> 00:34:28,116 Speaker 3: doesn't want to fly? Are you kidding me? Horse is awesome? 712 00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:32,076 Speaker 3: Flying horse? That's like, you know, an exponential increase in 713 00:34:32,156 --> 00:34:34,076 Speaker 3: awesomeness of a horse totally. 714 00:34:34,356 --> 00:34:35,996 Speaker 1: When I answered, I hadn't thought of a horse. I 715 00:34:36,076 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 1: was just thinking, like most mythological creatures are like not domesticated, 716 00:34:39,716 --> 00:34:41,516 Speaker 1: scary like I was like, I just want like a 717 00:34:41,636 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 1: small one, like a fairy, like you pull like a 718 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:47,676 Speaker 1: diaper eye. I've known Nick for a long time, but 719 00:34:47,796 --> 00:34:50,596 Speaker 1: Clear's questions helped me realize just how much I didn't 720 00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:53,436 Speaker 1: know about Nick, all the personal things we hadn't yet 721 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:55,276 Speaker 1: had a chance to talk about. What was your art 722 00:34:55,316 --> 00:34:59,156 Speaker 1: teacher like in school? Did you like art as a subject? No? 723 00:34:59,276 --> 00:35:02,316 Speaker 3: I hated art. However, the best class I have ever 724 00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:05,636 Speaker 3: taken in my entire life was a pottery class when 725 00:35:05,636 --> 00:35:08,316 Speaker 3: I was in high school. The most consistently fun every day, 726 00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:10,556 Speaker 3: the one I always forward to. It was the one 727 00:35:10,596 --> 00:35:13,476 Speaker 3: I remember from high school really enjoying a lot do 728 00:35:13,516 --> 00:35:15,996 Speaker 3: you do pottery? Now you know I don't. I don't, 729 00:35:16,116 --> 00:35:20,116 Speaker 3: but I do do the woodworking equivalent of it, which 730 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:23,676 Speaker 3: is lathe. I do lathe work. I love that feeling, 731 00:35:24,596 --> 00:35:26,036 Speaker 3: and so that has stuck with me. 732 00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:29,036 Speaker 1: Claire says that she often has a similar experience when 733 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:30,116 Speaker 1: going deeper with friends. 734 00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:32,436 Speaker 2: And this sounds a bit weir weird book, it felt 735 00:35:32,476 --> 00:35:34,356 Speaker 2: like muchic. We all know that we're all in our 736 00:35:34,356 --> 00:35:37,276 Speaker 2: own heads, our on narratives. I don't mean to be 737 00:35:37,356 --> 00:35:40,036 Speaker 2: self centered, It's just that's what we're focused on right, 738 00:35:40,116 --> 00:35:43,676 Speaker 2: our own experience, our own perception of reality. So when 739 00:35:43,756 --> 00:35:48,396 Speaker 2: you suddenly have that light up moment with someone, it 740 00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:51,076 Speaker 2: feels like magic to me. I just keep saying, lights 741 00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:52,516 Speaker 2: me up, because it really does. 742 00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:56,196 Speaker 1: I asked Claire to share some final advice about bringing 743 00:35:56,276 --> 00:35:59,036 Speaker 1: the light of deep conversation into our lives. 744 00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:01,236 Speaker 2: So that small people will find their own feet. The 745 00:36:01,276 --> 00:36:03,636 Speaker 2: most important thing is to start. Someone says, how are 746 00:36:03,716 --> 00:36:04,156 Speaker 2: you just say? 747 00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:04,556 Speaker 3: Do you know what? 748 00:36:04,796 --> 00:36:07,276 Speaker 2: I've just finished reading this book or I've just finished 749 00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:10,596 Speaker 2: watching this thing. It's a gentle to maneuver it. You 750 00:36:10,636 --> 00:36:12,756 Speaker 2: couldn't even own it. Depends on how brave you are. 751 00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:15,636 Speaker 2: You could own it. And say I'm not going to 752 00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:18,636 Speaker 2: small talk. Do you mind if I ask you about this? 753 00:36:18,836 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 2: Since diad you don't have to do twenty eight days, 754 00:36:21,116 --> 00:36:22,916 Speaker 2: You could just do it for a day. See what 755 00:36:22,996 --> 00:36:25,196 Speaker 2: it does to your moved Say if it raises your 756 00:36:25,236 --> 00:36:26,396 Speaker 2: vibration a little bit. 757 00:36:27,316 --> 00:36:30,556 Speaker 1: So that is today's happiness hot take. We all need 758 00:36:30,636 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 1: to ditch the small talk and go a little deeper. 759 00:36:33,676 --> 00:36:36,316 Speaker 1: I know, I know your cringe voice is probably saying 760 00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:38,916 Speaker 1: that it'll be awkward, or that people will think you're 761 00:36:38,956 --> 00:36:41,676 Speaker 1: weird if you get too vulnerable, or if you say 762 00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:44,236 Speaker 1: revealed that you've long thought that your husband looks like 763 00:36:44,276 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 1: a cartoon Fox character. Believe me, I get it. But 764 00:36:48,236 --> 00:36:51,196 Speaker 1: the science shows that our conversations and connections can feel 765 00:36:51,356 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 1: much much better if we channel our inner evolent eastems 766 00:36:54,836 --> 00:36:57,436 Speaker 1: and commit to going a bit deeper. And if you 767 00:36:57,516 --> 00:36:59,756 Speaker 1: need some ideas, Nick was kind enough to let me 768 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:02,796 Speaker 1: share his full list of deep questions. You can check 769 00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:06,676 Speaker 1: them out at doctor Lauri Santo's dot com slash deep questions. 770 00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:11,236 Speaker 1: That's doctor Laurisanto's dot com slash deep questions. And if 771 00:37:11,276 --> 00:37:13,676 Speaker 1: you want to learn even more tips for connecting deeply, 772 00:37:14,076 --> 00:37:16,236 Speaker 1: be sure to check out Nick's new book, A Little 773 00:37:16,316 --> 00:37:19,396 Speaker 1: More Social, which is on sale now. Next week, we'll 774 00:37:19,396 --> 00:37:22,516 Speaker 1: continue our happiness hot takes with one that specifically for 775 00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:25,396 Speaker 1: the guys in the audience. We'll see why does today 776 00:37:25,676 --> 00:37:26,956 Speaker 1: need more romances? 777 00:37:27,356 --> 00:37:29,876 Speaker 2: Like if I'm me to do and I like him 778 00:37:29,916 --> 00:37:31,636 Speaker 2: and I wanted to get to know him, I'm never 779 00:37:31,716 --> 00:37:33,756 Speaker 2: going to say, whereas my wife, Mike, you. 780 00:37:33,756 --> 00:37:35,676 Speaker 3: Want to look up a coffee sometime, A guy is 781 00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:36,956 Speaker 3: never going to do that. 782 00:37:37,276 --> 00:37:40,116 Speaker 1: That's next week on the Happiness Lab would be doctor 783 00:37:40,196 --> 00:37:40,996 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos