1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers. Since government conspiracies, history is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome 4 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: back to the show, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Matt, 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: my name is Noel. They call me Ben. You are 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 1: you that makes this stuff they don't want you to know? 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: And as always, it feels great to be back in 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: the booth with you guys. And that is the sweetest 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: thing you said to me all week. That is the 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: only nice thing I think I've ever said in my life. 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: You do one nice thing a year. I tried to. 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: I tried to to make it count. And of course 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: shout out to our super producer Alex on the ones 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: and twos. What a time to be alive. Right as 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: we record this, this is uh, let's see towards the 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: end of June, and we are in a renaissance of technology, 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, uh, innovation of bounds right 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: right now. It's so weird to think that nowadays we 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: are closer than ever before to the idea of not 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: only bringing the human species to Mars, but maybe actually 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: staying there. It's so cool, I mean in the same 22 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: way that you know, people are able to make movies 23 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: and records because the technology has gotten so much more 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: affordable and accessible. This is obviously on a higher level, 25 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: but now we have private companies like SpaceX that are 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: developing stuff that you know before could have only even 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: been conceived by government programs, and they're doing it with 28 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: such attention to detail, with such a kind of a 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: niche approach that they're making leaps and bounds strides in 30 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: this kind of technology that could do exactly what you 31 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: just described, Ben. And then last year Elon Musk, the 32 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: person who heads SpaceX, got up in front of a 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: crowd at the sixty seven International Astronautical Congress and he 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: made the announcement that he and SpaceX want to achieve 35 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: a million person Mars colony, and he outlined all of 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: the different rockets and the spacecraft that they are trying 37 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: to design and build to achieve this. And then someone 38 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: that we know personally wrote up a very long thought 39 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: experiment about what this colony might actually look like. I 40 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: would say, yeah, I would, I would say, uh thorough. 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: And it really makes you think, because look, this is 42 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: a huge and uh increasingly crucial step in the expansion 43 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: of the human species, and we didn't want it just 44 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: to be the three of us digging through stuff and 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: and telling you just our opinions. So we went directly 46 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: to one of the most intelligent men we have ever met, 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: and that is the man who literally founded how stuff works, 48 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Marshall Brain, and we have him here today to help 49 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: us explore what a colony on Mars would actually look like. 50 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming today, Marshall. Hey, it's 51 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: great to be here, and it's great to talk about 52 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: Mars because that is one of those things that, uh, 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: was just mind blowing when he announced it. You you 54 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: you were talking about technology and all this stuff that's happened, 55 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: and this is an example, and it's mind blowing that 56 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: we could even conceive of getting a million people onto 57 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: another planet. Now, I guess first things first, the big 58 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: question that a lot of people would have is we 59 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: know that, uh, scientific progress often gets exaggerated in the mainstream, 60 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, when it becomes like a share able article 61 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: on social media. So we wanted to ask you, you know, um, 62 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: how like is this definitely a real thing? That's going 63 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: to be the first question A lot of our audience 64 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: members have so there are a lot of, um, the 65 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: problems that have kind of been swept under the rug. 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: And that is a little bit like Elon Musk sometimes 67 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: does that. He'll put something out there. It's seemingly just 68 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: to make us think or to imagine or to wonder, um, 69 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, like he proposed this idea of digging tunnels 70 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: under Los Angeles. I don't know that that's practical, but 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: it definitely is a different way to think about the 72 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: traffic problem in Los Angeles. So with Mars, I think 73 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: the technology side of it, him making the rockets and 74 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: moving the people, that is all fathomable. The thing I 75 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: think people are unsure of is once they get there, 76 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: could they actually live on a planet that's bombarded with 77 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: radiation and that has much weaker gravity, Like we just 78 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: don't know if you have a kid on a planet 79 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: with gravity that's significantly different from Earth, Like can you 80 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: even have a pregnancy in that situation? And does it 81 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: work and does the kid come out normal? And you know, 82 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of stuff like that that in 83 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: this discussion, we're just going to kind of leave under 84 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: the rug and assume that you know that it works 85 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: out now martial oft science fiction has taught me anything. 86 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: We would obviously be living in some sort of gravity 87 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: controlled biodome. Well, I don't know that we can control 88 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: gravity yet. Like I would assume that too, because that's 89 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: what Star Wars says. Right, then all this stuff is 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: easier and straightforward. But I I I'm not sure that 91 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: humans on Mars is even a possible thing from a 92 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,119 Speaker 1: long term standpoint. We don't know. Well, let's talk about 93 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: some of the problems then. I mean, you address gravity 94 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: right up front. That's obviously a biggie, But what are 95 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: some of the other issues that you kind of tackled 96 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: in putting together this thought experiment about what it would 97 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: take to actually accomplish such a you know, seemingly insurmountable task. Well, 98 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: so Elon Musk has said, you know, and as and 99 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: as articulated pretty clearly that the transit problem, uh is solvable, 100 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: And he's implied that the money problem is solvable. So 101 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: we would have assumed that it would be so ridiculously 102 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: expensive to move a million people to Mars that you 103 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: could never consider it. But he's he's put down a 104 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: stake and said, I'm going to solve the money problem. 105 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: As well, I'm going to make it cheap to get 106 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: people to Mars. So now they land there. And we 107 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: don't know a lot about this planet. We you know, 108 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: we know some things, but a million people is a 109 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: lot of people. And uh, you have the gravity thing, 110 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: you have radiation, which you could probably solve by shoving 111 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: everybody underground. But then the question is a million people 112 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: living underground? Does that work? Like? Do people function okay 113 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: living underground for long periods of time? We don't, you know, 114 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: as sunlight important, I guess would be another way to 115 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: phrase that question. You have the whole climate thing, the 116 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: temperature problem, which means you've got to enclose this whole structure. 117 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: And as you start to think about that, um just 118 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: it becomes a materials problem. You have logistics. You know, 119 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: as we get into this conversation, one of the most 120 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: interesting things about it is how do you move all 121 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: the technology to make all the stuff that humans have 122 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: today to Mars. Like that doesn't have anything to do 123 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: with the geophysics of it or anything like that. It's 124 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: just when you when you think about all the stuff 125 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: that we consider normal today and that you know is 126 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: everything from scotch tape to microprocessors to move all that 127 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: manufacturing capability and knowledge to Mars. That's chapter thirt the book. 128 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: That that one problem alone, UH is just mind boggling 129 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: to think about. Yeah, when you started breaking that stuff 130 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: down in the book and just showing the list, I 131 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: think you put a list in there of how it's 132 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: made episodes where it just shows you all the different 133 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: factories and things you and different resources you would need 134 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: to make structure, right, I mean even get that in 135 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: place in such a way where you could have factories 136 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: that could produce that kind of stuff and the weight 137 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: of the stuff you need to build the factory. And 138 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: I think there's I think there's a a brilliant point here. Uh. 139 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: One of the one of the headings for that chapter 140 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: is how will we chips on Mars or pharmaceuticals medical devices? Uh? 141 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: In will Mars be able to be a viable backup 142 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: plan for humanity? It reminds me in a way of 143 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: that old time travel question where people say, you know, 144 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: I would love to travel back in time to you know, 145 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: the thirteen hundreds, and I would be like as this 146 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: um intellectual giant and this demi god. But the average 147 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: person does not have the knowledge, much less the means 148 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: to create so many of these common things, you know, 149 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: probably including to your early example Marshal scotch tape. So yeah, 150 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: so how would we how like, how would we, to 151 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: an old's point, uh, make this infrastructure? And it would 152 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: almost would it almost certainly have to be something where 153 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: we severely limit the kind of products that we would have. 154 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: Would this be like the the effect of living on 155 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: a remote island times of a billion. That's a great 156 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: Ushian And and that's one of the things that makes 157 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: it such a great thought experiment is, you know, Elon 158 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: Musk has said, Okay, I can get the people there, 159 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: and I can get them there cheap enough for us 160 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: to imagine it. But as soon as you open your 161 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: mind to well, what are they gonna do once they land? 162 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: And the desert island thing is really a funny way 163 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: to think about it, then the number of questions is gigantic, 164 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of questions you have to start going through. 165 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: So you mentioned this, this notion that Mars could be 166 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: a backup plan for humanity, meaning that we have a 167 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: second civilization that's on a different planet. So if planet 168 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: Earth gets struck by an asteroid, or it gets blown 169 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: up by nukes or some other catastrophe happens. There's a 170 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: whole another instantiation of humanity somewhere else that could carry 171 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: on without Earth anymore. And that makes you wonder, what 172 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:09,359 Speaker 1: could you take everything that's happening on Earth today and 173 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: and actually bring it up like booted up on another planet. 174 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: And if you if you drill down into it, that 175 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: just it seems incredibly difficult. It's imaginable, but it definitely 176 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: would require a huge amount of thought and logistics and training. 177 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: I like I came up with a rough estimate that 178 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: you might have to have two d thousand people trained 179 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: in all these different disciplines to make Scotch tape and 180 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: to make aluminum oil, and to make chips and to 181 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: make tires, and like there's there's all these things we 182 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: make that are all so specialized. The amount of knowledge 183 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: you'd have to send there and skill and practice and stuff, 184 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating to think about it, especially when you 185 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: think that you can't, uh, you can't have a wood 186 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: making facility that just procures would or something like that. 187 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: It's something as simple as that, you know, you have 188 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: to manufacture a lot of these different elements essentially that 189 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: then go into the product. Yeah, we take carbon really 190 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: for granted that planet. Yeah, and wood is a great 191 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: example because you aren't gonna have any wood for like 192 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: thirty years if you want real wood, you know, because 193 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: it takes time for the tree to grow. Well, thankfully, 194 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: I Kea has those flat packs, which surely would uh. 195 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: And so one of these landers. Um no, but seriously, like, 196 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: who's gonna build this stuff? Like? Is it like this 197 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: is a volunteer situation. I mean, obviously this is part 198 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: of the thought experiment, is the fact that stuff hasn't 199 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: been discussed, and it's also amorphous at this point. But 200 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: you sort of lay out and make a case for 201 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: how will people contribute once they get there? Can you 202 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that? So if you're gonna 203 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: if you're going to create a complete backup of human 204 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: activity on Mars, if you're going to try to do that, 205 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: then uh, you mentioned chip making as an example. Chip 206 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: making is probably the most advanced thing humans are doing 207 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: right now. I guess we could argue there's other you know, 208 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: there's competitors, but chip making is really hard at the 209 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: at the scale we're doing it at and at the 210 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: precision we're doing it at. So if you wanted to 211 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: bring that whole industry up on Mars, you start you know, 212 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: you asked about what are the roles of different people, Well, 213 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: there is a crazy amount of really esoteric expertise that 214 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: would have to be trained into the passengers that go 215 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: to Mars so that they know how to land on 216 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: the planet, build the different parts of the chip making 217 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, activity, get it all up running, uh like, 218 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: have it produced its first product, and then they would 219 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: have to start moving it forward on the research side 220 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: like we do on Earth as well, or they're going 221 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: to get behind very quickly. So yeah, when you think 222 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: about the roles people would have, um, you know, like 223 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: one of the one of the little riffs in chapter 224 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: thirteen is that there are people on this planet inside 225 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: of Apple and Intel and other chip making companies that 226 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: their whole specialty might be, you know, the floating point 227 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: multiplier of a CPU, or the branch prediction part of 228 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: the CPU, or you know these really esoteric memory features 229 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: of a CPU or something. There's like thousands of those 230 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: little specialties just to make CPUs And that doesn't have 231 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: to do with the manufacture of it. That just has 232 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: to do with a layout and design of it and 233 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: the improvement of it. So you're talking hundreds of thousands 234 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: of people who know such amazingly esoteric things so that 235 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: all this stuff can actually start working on Mars. And 236 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: then you can't just send one of them, right because 237 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: what if that guy gets hit by a meteor or 238 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: his ship crashes on landing, or you have to send 239 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: enough redundancy, and then you have to send an education 240 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: system so that you can train up new people so 241 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: when those people die, they're replaced. And just it's like 242 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: this huge rabbit hole if you actually start to think 243 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: about what Elon Musk is proposing. But are you incentivizing 244 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: these people to get the best in the brightest? Are 245 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: we talking about like only the super elite are even 246 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: going to be considered for this, Like like yeah, I 247 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: mean is it like Australia and a prison colony. Yeah, 248 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: maybe they're the first round to go and they do 249 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: all the work and then we ship them back to 250 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: the States. It's a great question, though, I just wonder. 251 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there's us Like you said, it's like each 252 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: question begets like fifty other questions and that's that's why 253 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: it's so much fun to talk about, but no, but really, like, 254 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean, who, how do you incentivize people that even 255 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: have these skill sets to go like on this dangerous, 256 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: you know, dicey expedition. I would say being part of 257 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: history is a huge argument, right, being on the the 258 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: backup planet that might be an incentive, I think if 259 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: we're just honest about it. And one of the things 260 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: that the book starts with is that there are like 261 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: pick a number, two billion, three billion, four billion people 262 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: on planet Earth who are living in misery. Like just 263 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: to put it succinctly, they are getting the raw end 264 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of the economic deal on this planet. Like there's this 265 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: fun statistic of the people on planet Earth make less 266 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: than ten dollars a a that like, that's impossible to imagine, 267 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: but nonetheless that's a fact. And there are lots of people, 268 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: like billions who make less than five dollars a day, 269 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: and there's a billion that make less than two dollars 270 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: a day. There are plenty of people whose lives would 271 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: be radically like a hundred times better if they had 272 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: the opportunity to do something like this. They don't necessarily 273 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: have anything right now, but if they could be trained 274 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: and brought up to speed and then sent to a 275 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: place like Mars. The incentives for them are far different 276 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: from the incentives that you know, someone living in America 277 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: or Germany or Canada might have. That it's a whole 278 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: different world for them. So then it leads us to 279 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: a really big question. Um, for us, the three of 280 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: us in the studio, for many of you listening, not 281 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: all of you, we are familiar with a capitalist economic system, 282 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: especially if you live in the West, and one of 283 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: the huge questions asked are proposed by you, and here 284 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 1: is why not export the American economic system to Mars? 285 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: And we're going to get to that right after a 286 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: quick word from our sponsor, and we're back. We have 287 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: returned not from Mars, but from an ad break, not 288 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: from Mars. Yet we left on one of the biggest questions, 289 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: and a singular thing explored in the book, which is 290 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: not not just the technology, but beyond the technology. Um. 291 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: You know, you could argue that one of the most 292 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: intangible and important technologies that humanity has evolved are socioeconomic systems. Right, 293 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: So one of the questions is if we're making a 294 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: backup planet, not only what should we bring from Earth, 295 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: but are there improvements or are their superior approaches that 296 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: we would want to institute on this you know, Earth 297 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: two point oh, or do we just think about it 298 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: in a completely new light right and m The the 299 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: socio economic part of it is absolutely fascinating to think 300 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: about because there are a number of different systems that 301 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: are like in place on planet Earth. But if we 302 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: look across the whole planet at the effects those systems 303 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: are having on people, we have not figured out the 304 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: socioeconomic part to any degree on planet Earth yet. So 305 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: before the break, there was this fund statistic that of 306 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: the planet makes less than ten dollars a day, so 307 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: you know that would be less than a year, and 308 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: of the planet would be something like five five and 309 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: a half billion people, maybe billions and billions of people 310 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: are really getting shafted by the economic systems that we're 311 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: using today. So it forces us to ask, if we're 312 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: going to create this whole new colony, what kind of 313 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 1: economic system do we want to put there? And if 314 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: we're starting with a blank sheet of paper, which we are, 315 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: why not come up with something much much much better 316 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: for everyone who's going to live on that planet. Why 317 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: don't we come up with a set of goals for 318 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: the whole society and then figure out how to make 319 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: an economic system that delivers on those goals. And ay, 320 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: those goals are easy to figure out, like all we 321 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: have to do is think about what we want in 322 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: our own lives and be the the goals that we set, 323 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: we want them to apply to everyone. We like, when 324 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: we think about put bringing up this whole new thinging 325 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: on on Mars, we expect it to be cool and 326 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: shiny and new and wonderful, you know, kind of the 327 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: word utopia's way overused. We would like it to be 328 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: good for the people who go there. And we know 329 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: from looking at Earth that if we take what we're 330 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: doing on Earth now, it's gonna be just as bad 331 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: on Mars. So how do we conceive of a new 332 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: economic system? How do we think about that? And there's 333 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: a number of chapters in the book that tries to 334 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: lay out this whole new economic way of thinking that 335 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: benefits everyone and that delivers on all the goals we 336 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: would have for a Martian society. Things like everybody gets food, 337 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: and everybody gets clean water, and everybody gets housing, and 338 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: everybody gets health care. I mean, those are so obvious 339 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: that they don't even bear you know, thought really except 340 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: that on planet Earth, billions and billions of people don't 341 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: even have those essentials. It's like, it's crazy when you 342 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: think about Earth and then you think, well, what what 343 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: will we do to make it better on Mars? You know, 344 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: I had kind of a freudy and listening heretic a 345 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: second ago when you said a Martian society, I heard 346 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: Marxist society. And I can't help but think that that 347 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: plays into this a little bit. I mean, you know 348 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: what I mean, like just the idea of putting everyone 349 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: on equal playing field, making where everyone works together towards 350 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: a common goal. And this is a system that we've seen, 351 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, fail time and again. How do you feel 352 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: like it would be I'm not saying this is straight 353 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: up communism, but it has the feel of that in 354 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: certain ways. How do you feel like that would work 355 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: from a you know, setting up a brand new society 356 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: when it hasn't worked, you know, in in the planet 357 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: we have. Well, so the first thing I think we 358 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: could ask is does the system we have now work? 359 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: Like we like to say that it works, but if 360 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: we were to really look at it and no things 361 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: like that there's a billion people living slums, and there's 362 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: billions of people who don't have any real access to 363 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: modern healthcare and are making less than ten dollars a day, 364 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: and you know, we look at that. Is that success? 365 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: Like I you could argue that it is radically successful 366 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: for some of us. Like if you happen to have 367 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: a good job in a developed country, you're doing great, 368 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: but you're like five percent of the planet or something. 369 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: So it's working great for five percent of the planet 370 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: and it's working less and less great for the other 371 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: Is that success? I agree completely? But aren't those people 372 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: that are successful in our economic system is the one 373 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: that would be more likely to want to escape and 374 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: live in a utopian you know, society and kind of 375 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: own everything well after everything's been built. That's kind of 376 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: what I'm hearing. Let's send to the poor people there 377 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: to build everything poisoning, right, and then like you know, 378 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: we go and live on our Martian villas. I don't 379 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: know that's maybe being negative, but that's one thing I'd 380 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: like to One thing I'd like to examine here, Marshall 381 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: is um. I think there's a really strong point to 382 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: the book's approach, where it is grounding the thought experiment 383 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: in current statistics from international institutions to current socio economic practices. Nol. 384 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in what you brought up about, uh, 385 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: the idea of Marxism as we as we know, international 386 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: economists and people who study international affairs have routinely given backhanded, 387 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: uh like back handed compliments to the American system. They've 388 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: called it the least worst of all disasters. But I mean, 389 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: and uh, the thing that you said, like, why what 390 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: where would something like this succeed rather than fail? And first, 391 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: it seems like there's a smaller sample size if it's 392 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: a million people and they're going to be pre selected 393 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: to some sort of rubric or through some sort of rubric. 394 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: But the question I would ask you, Marshall, is how 395 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: would you see a I interacting in this or and 396 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: to what degree? If so? So, if we're gonna design 397 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: a society from scratch, we would be silly not to 398 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: take AI into account in designing that whole system. So 399 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: the problem we're facing in America right now, or a 400 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: problem economically, is that when AI comes along, it is 401 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: increasingly displacing people from their jobs, and then those people 402 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: really don't have anywhere to go and and a great 403 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: example of that that's that's coming in the near term 404 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: is is truck drivers. Like we can pretty much say 405 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: that in X years, where X might be ten or 406 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: it might be twenty, but it probably isn't more than twenty. 407 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: In X years, all the truck drivers are going to 408 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: get bounced out of their jobs by AI, by self 409 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: driving trucks. And that's one point six million jobs just 410 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: for truck drivers of eighteen wheeler kind of trucks. That 411 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: doesn't count all the FedEx trucks and the UPS trucks 412 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: and all the taxis and all the other jobs. Just 413 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: the big rig truck drivers is one point six million people. 414 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: They're gonna get bounced out of their jobs and then 415 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: they're gonna do what like that? That is the problem 416 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: our economy has with AI is that it displaces people 417 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: from jobs and then their destitute Like there, it's gonna 418 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: be very hard for them to find new jobs, and 419 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: that's going to get worse and worse and worse as 420 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: AI accelerate. So why don't we design an economy where 421 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: that where AI is a good thing rather than a 422 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,959 Speaker 1: bad thing, And why don't we apply it everywhere we 423 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: can from healthcare to education to truck driving, to apply 424 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: it everywhere, and then as it frees up more and 425 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: more people, we take advantage of that and spread all 426 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: that automation, all the advantages and wealth from it out 427 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: to everyone, rather than letting it concentrate as it is 428 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: right now in an increasingly small slice of humanity. Like 429 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: they're sometimes called the one percent, they're sometimes called the elite, 430 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call the the percent of humanity 431 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: that's taking all these gains right now, Why don't we 432 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: design an economy that spreads it out to everybody instead 433 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: of concentrating it. And that that's a big part of 434 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: the underpinning of the book's thought process is how do 435 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: we make this planet, this new planet, how do we 436 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: make it benefit everyone in instead of having most of 437 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: the people being destitute and then some being okay, in 438 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: this tiny group being you know, ultra wealthy, which is 439 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 1: what the Earth is Like. Yeah, we know we we 440 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: have in our society benevolent billionaires. They do exist. But 441 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: you wouldn't it require that, wouldn't it require wealthy people 442 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: to be willing to spread that out and like participate 443 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: in a system where everyone is benefited equally. As opposed 444 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: to being in the position they're used to being in, 445 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: which is kind of at the top of the mountain. 446 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: I think we have to create an economy that automatically 447 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: you like, that is structurally designed so that everyone benefits 448 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: from the economy, instead of an economy that is what 449 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: we're experiencing right now, which is a very small number 450 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: of winners takes pretty much everything. Was this really weird 451 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: statistic that came out at the beginning of the year 452 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: where eight human beings on Earth own as much wealth 453 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: as the whole bottom half of humanity, So eight own 454 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: as much wealth as three point seven billion people. And 455 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: that is happening because that's how today's economy on Earth 456 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: is structured, that's how the rules are written, that's how 457 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: it's all designed to work that way. Well, what if 458 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: you do it on Mars in a completely different way, 459 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: Like why not make a different set of rules that 460 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: have much much better outcomes? And the advantage of Mars 461 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: is that gives you a blank slate. You don't have 462 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: to force existing billionaires out of the way to make 463 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: it happen. You just make it happen organically by designing 464 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: it that way from the start. Yeah, in chapter fifteen 465 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: of the of the book, you examine the political system 466 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: or possibilities for a Martian political system, and of the 467 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: one of the first when the first proposals that you 468 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: explore is the concept of the direct vote. You know, 469 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: and just for all our listeners who are outside of 470 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: the US, the way the system would work here in 471 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: the US is that the average voter votes for a representative. 472 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: Still at this point human who or you know, I 473 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: don't know that, but yeah, yeah, I mean it's a 474 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: great point. But you know, the big difference here is that, um, 475 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: the average voter votes for a representative who then in theory, 476 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: pursues the interest of the forces they represent, which you know, 477 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: the big criticism is that in practice the forces they 478 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: represent tend not to be the voters who elected them. Yes, 479 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: that is one big problem. And we know this. That 480 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: the folks get elected, they go to Washington, then they 481 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: start receiving large amounts of money from rich people in 482 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: a wide variety of ways, and then they start doing 483 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: what the rich people want them to do. So the 484 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: voice of the people basically is meaningless now, uh, except 485 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: in those rare cases where the voice of the people 486 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: happens to intersect with what the rich want to happen. 487 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: And you know, if we want to make this topical 488 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: to today's news, we kind of see this with the 489 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: whole healthcare thing that's coming down, where tens of millions 490 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: of people are gonna lose access to healthcare coverage. Like, 491 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: I don't think normal rank and file folk, which is 492 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: us most everybody else, would want that to happen. But 493 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, the wealthy people want that to happen. 494 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: And since they are pulling the strings there, they're ramming 495 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: that through the House and then the Senate. Uh. And 496 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: the president who we elected, who said he would never 497 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: do this, like he would never modify Medicare or Medicaid 498 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: and abandon all these working class people, has totally flipped 499 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: and is now on the side of really really hurting 500 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: working class people. So he promised one thing to get elected, 501 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: and he's not delivering on that promise at all. That 502 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: is that is the problem with electing human beings to 503 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: political positions. It really uh forces you to think about 504 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: how to get humans out of politics, representative humans like 505 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: like we're experiencing in the United States right now. So 506 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: I feel like we're really getting to the point we've 507 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: been beating around this whole time, is what's the government 508 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: going to be on Mars, Who's going to be running it? Well, 509 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: I just have to interview one of the things, Marshal, 510 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: that you propose in here, which isn't necessarily the government, 511 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: but I can or what would be a government, but 512 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: I can see it functioning somewhat in that way. I 513 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: think we're talking about the same. It's the software that 514 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: you talk about that will be constantly monitoring all of 515 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: the inhabitants of the colony, all the colonists, and it's 516 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: it will distribute work based on the needs of the 517 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: colony to these colonists. And it seems like this really 518 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: highly entirely government right. Well, in a way, yeah, in 519 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: a way, it is right. But at the same time, 520 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: it's also resource allocation because it's looking at what the 521 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: colony needs and here's all of the work. I need 522 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: to get that done at its best though, isn't that 523 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: what the government's kind of supposed to do? Kind of? 524 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: But so so, ultimately, Marshall, I just want to talk 525 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: to you about the way you would see that functioning 526 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: and mostly the problems that you see arising from that system. 527 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: So if you think about how this Mars colony could 528 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: be structured and how it could be organized, and how 529 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: you could uh spread the benefits of the economy around everyone. Uh. 530 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: In the book, it starts with the premise of food, 531 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: like how could the colony produce its own food? And 532 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: the way we do that in America today is a 533 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: real hodgepodge. Like a person randomly seemingly decides that he 534 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: or she wants to be a farmer and grows some food, 535 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: and then it goes into this very odd commodity marketplace 536 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: where prices can fluctuate wildly depending on this thing we 537 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: call supply and demand. And then it goes into a 538 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: you know, a whole giant corporate apparatus that distributes you know, 539 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: that turns raw food products into manufactured food products a 540 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: lot of the times, and then it gets distributed through 541 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,959 Speaker 1: these other things, and and it's all hodgepodge. It's all uh, 542 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: completely random. There's a hundred, like a million places for 543 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: people to extract money out of that system and concentrate it. 544 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: And and so then you think, well, what is government 545 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: supposed to do, like how how is government supposed to 546 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: behave in that system or in a better system. And 547 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 1: if you think about food down at the bottom, you 548 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: you need people to do certain tasks to make the 549 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: food available so that we can consume it. And fifty 550 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: years from now that will all be done with robots. 551 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: But right now we don't have robots to do certain 552 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: parts of the problem, so we use human beings to 553 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: do those parts. And the system that's proposed in the 554 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: book is we just let and you know, a piece 555 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: of software help people to find the things that need 556 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: to get done based on their preferences of what they 557 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: would prefer to be doing, and it manages the whole 558 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: allocation of those tasks and the production of all the 559 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: things that the colony needs. That is not unlike the 560 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: system that you might use on well, like on the 561 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: International Space Station right now at a tiny scale, or 562 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: on an aircraft carrier at a bigger scale, or on 563 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: a you know, like an Antarctic base or anything else. Like, 564 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: we're just taking it up to the million person level 565 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: so that everybody gets the benefits of the work that 566 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: they input into the system. So that's the basic idea. Okay, yes, 567 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: So would this be a situation then where where for instance, 568 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: matt or null as Mars colonists have a profile of 569 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: some sort a database just about them that list their 570 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: their skills, their expertise, um, there are other concurrent projects 571 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: or past experience, and then based on the needs of 572 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: the of the overall system, uh, they're they're assigned a 573 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: particular role that would be fluid depending on the state 574 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: of those needs. Well, there's a lot of different aspects 575 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: to it. So what the stuff you're talking about that's important. 576 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: Then there's like, how do you guys prefer to work. 577 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: Do you prefer to work at night? Do you prefer 578 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: to work a little bit every day? Or would you 579 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: prefer to work for a month and then have a 580 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: month off? You know, there's like what kind of conditions 581 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: do you prefer working in? There's what are you really 582 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: good at? Um? And what really brings you joy when 583 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: you do it? Like like let's say you had a 584 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: system and you could talk to it and you could say, well, 585 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: you know, I like doing podcasts, but I also I 586 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: don't know, pick something I also like preparing engines, or 587 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: you pick something so I would say farming repairing engines. Okay, 588 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: So you know, if if we had a system that 589 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: that understood all of that, it could customize a set 590 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: of tasks for you that might be much better than 591 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: the mix of tasks you're having right now. And if 592 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: you're one of the classic millennials who went to college 593 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,280 Speaker 1: but then couldn't find a job and now you're working 594 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: in a coffee shop and that seems like a totally 595 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 1: uh useless way to use your time, the system can 596 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: prevent that kind of just amazing waste from happening, because, 597 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, the the problem that a lot of millennials 598 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: have right now is either they don't have a job 599 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: Millennial unemployment is way higher than average unemployment, or if 600 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: they do have a job, it is a job they 601 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: have no desire to be doing because it's unrelated to 602 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: anything they've been trained for. So again, and we look 603 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: at the American system and we think, well, this is okay, 604 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: But as soon as you look at it with any 605 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, critical thinking, it really isn't 606 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: good at all. For probably a majority of the people 607 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: they're in. They're in positions that they would never choose 608 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: to be doing strictly because they have to do something 609 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: to make money, or they're unemployed. So the system can 610 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: just ring all of that inefficiency out and and give 611 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: everybody a much better mix of tasks that are matched 612 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:05,959 Speaker 1: to their skill and their preferences and their dreams, their passions, whatever. Yeah, 613 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: and this is this point is perhaps one of the 614 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: points that would be uh controversial for some audience members. 615 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the arguments people used to make 616 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: about autonomous vehicles, which you know candidly are going to 617 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: be the rule rather than the exception within our lifetimes 618 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: in many parts of the world. Uh. And and that 619 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: argument that some critics would make is they would say, well, 620 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: this is removing my own autonomy or my own personal freedom. 621 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate how you know, how you took 622 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 1: steps to emphasize that this would be not a soulless 623 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: uh putting a person into a slot or a box 624 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: for a given amount of time, but it would it 625 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: would engage with their preferences too. So I guess for 626 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: our members of the audience who would say, you know, 627 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: well that I am making my own human and decisions. Uh, 628 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not gonna let a piece of software 629 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: tell me what to do. How would you respond to 630 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: those members of the audience. Well, the flip it responses 631 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 1: don't go to Mars you don't want to live that way? Uh, 632 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: you know it, anything, no matter what we create, there's 633 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: gonna be people who don't like it, and they're going 634 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: to complain at whatever volume they choose to complain at. 635 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: The nice thing about Mars, uh, you know, if we 636 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: went back ten minutes, someone mentioned this is that there's 637 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: a very strong filter possible on who gets to go 638 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: to be in the Martian colony and you know, a 639 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: selection process, training, vetting, whatever you want to call it, 640 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: and everyone gets housing and food and clothing and healthcare, 641 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: then off you go. And if you're not down with that, 642 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: like if you think that half the people on Mars 643 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't get healthcare, chances are we don't want you on Mars. 644 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 1: Like why would we want to create a society where 645 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: half the people don't get healthcare? That's that's insanity really, 646 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of people who believe that, so, 647 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: I mean most of the Senate a representative seems to 648 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: believe it. Right now. It's as crazy as that is. 649 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: So we just choose people who are aligned with this 650 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: way of thinking. Uh, as we select the people who 651 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,760 Speaker 1: go to to the Mars colony. Okay, so this brings 652 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 1: us to the most important, in my opinion, question that 653 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: you pose in this entire thought experiment, Marshal, and that 654 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: is what do we do with all the assholes on 655 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: mars And we're going to get to that right after 656 00:42:51,719 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: a quick word from our sponsor. Welcome back to the 657 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: show everyone. We are still here with Marshall brain talking 658 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: about colonizing Mars, right, and Matt raised a very interesting 659 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: question at the end of the break, what do we 660 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: do with all the assholes on mars um and which 661 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: which leads me to something I was thinking about bringing 662 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: up before the break, but I think it works perfectly 663 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: here Marshall. We're talking about this sort of software AI 664 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 1: kind of task master governing system I guess for lack 665 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: of a better term, and that then it needs to 666 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 1: be an acronym. By the way, it's an efficiency system. 667 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: Big fan of acronyms. But if it knows all of 668 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: this stuff about us, it assigns us these tasks, it 669 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: knows our strengths, it knows our weaknesses, does it not 670 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: also record black marks against us and potentially mark us 671 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: as undesirable elements over time as we interact and engage, 672 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, with this new society, if you know, to 673 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: the point of what happens to all the jerks? Is 674 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: it the machine that filters them out and sends them 675 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: to work in the minds? Like what are we talking here? 676 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: So I don't know about you, but I personally, I'm 677 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: great with living with people who are nice, and I'm 678 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: great with people who are neutral, that is, they're just 679 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: trying to get on with their lives and and make 680 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: things happen. But then there's this group of people who 681 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 1: actively works to make other people miserable. Those I've I've 682 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: just applied the colloquial word assholes to them. And I 683 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: think society is much much better if we can control, 684 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:45,760 Speaker 1: preferably eliminate asshole behavior, because it does make everybody miserable. 685 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: And and we could sit here and we could list 686 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: off a bunch of asshole things that we experience pretty 687 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 1: regularly today that we would like to eradicate. On Mars, 688 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: I'll just pick one simple one, like racism, Like, think, 689 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: what is the point of that? Why so why would 690 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: we want to have a group of people who are 691 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: actively trying to oppose or to make other people miserable? 692 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: Like why what benefit does that have for the society? 693 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: For you know all the people living in that society 694 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: when they're actively working to make the lives of others miserable. 695 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: I think a big part of the Mars colony of 696 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: any kind of perfected human society would be to recognize 697 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: those behaviors that make people miserable and then do everything 698 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: possible to eradicate them. That's one of my questions just 699 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 1: to jump in here, that I would I think a 700 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: lot of people would have on their mind. Is is 701 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: there a degree of uh? To put to a coin 702 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: of phrase, is there a degree of asshol ery here? 703 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: You know? Because there are people who are an inconvenience 704 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: or inconsiderate and daily life, and then there are people 705 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: who are clear and present dangers, perhaps like a chronic 706 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: a chronic drug abuser who operates heavy machinery. You know 707 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 1: what I mean. So what's what's the scale here? I 708 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 1: guess is the question? Man? Who gets to make the list? Right? 709 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: Both good questions. So there is a spectrum of asshol 710 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,240 Speaker 1: eryn't want to say it that way, right? And you've 711 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,359 Speaker 1: you mentioned one like people who are intoxicated who are 712 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: operating heavy machinery and are are endangering people's lives. We 713 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:41,439 Speaker 1: can throw murderers and robbers and rapists. You know, they're 714 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: at one end of the scale. We all get that 715 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: there a problem, and we already have systems that try 716 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: to contain and deal with that end of the spectrum. 717 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,840 Speaker 1: That's the police force, the court, the prison system. You 718 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: know that all UH is pretty well understood. Then there's 719 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: stuff in the middle UH. And then there's the really 720 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: lightweight stuff at the other end of the spectrum. So 721 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: if someone gets into the line at the grocery store 722 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: that clearly says ten items are less and they dropped 723 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: fifty items on the conveyor belt. Yo, that is a 724 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: level of Assholarry. It's far different from murdering someone, but 725 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:41,840 Speaker 1: it is. There's said, we are getting very dangerously into 726 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: like Larry David. But I feel like I'm learning a 727 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: lot about you right now. Okay, looks sometimes I do twelve. 728 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: I try. Sometimes I look at my basket and likely 729 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 1: visually it looks like ten. But then as I'm placing them. 730 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,439 Speaker 1: But you know what, they don't care. They don't care. Yeah, 731 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: well someone should. The science hast said, I'm sorry. I 732 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: could see. I could see, even in the microcosm of 733 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: our own society, how this is already how how there 734 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: are points of contention, and I think that's an excellent 735 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: point um that that you're making here, Marshall, is that 736 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: whether or not their degrees of um conflicts creating behaviors 737 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: or or or misery causing behaviors, they they still have 738 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: an appreciable impact over time. So this is the this 739 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: is the very light example, but humorously egregious. Someone goes 740 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: into they go to the local uh mars safe way 741 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: and they get uh they see the science as ten 742 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,720 Speaker 1: things and then let's say they get uh fifty noodle 743 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: packs and they argue that it's one thing because they're 744 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: all the same noodles. Whatever. What if they rubber banded 745 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: together at a giant bundle and the nuts I mean, 746 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,399 Speaker 1: if it's one upc anyway, yeah, yeah, sorry, we don't 747 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: mean to de ray. Also, so what happens in that situation. Well, 748 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: so one thing that's proposed uh in the book is 749 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 1: that everybody in the society has the ability to report 750 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: what they believe to be asshole behaviors. So the book 751 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 1: goes so far as to suggest, like what if everybody 752 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: wore a body camera and now we have this record 753 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,920 Speaker 1: of stuff that's happening in society all the time. And 754 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,840 Speaker 1: let's pick something a slightly less trivial than the ten items. 755 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: Let's um, let's you know, one of the videos I 756 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: linked to in the book is the one where the 757 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: woman walks around New York City. She's just walking around, 758 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 1: living her life. And the number of people who can't 759 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: call her or to reach out to her a toucher 760 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 1: or who follow one ft behind her and you know, 761 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: stalking her. Just the amount of harassment she receives just 762 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,760 Speaker 1: walking around as a normal human being in New York. 763 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,319 Speaker 1: It's on camera, and it's easy to see that it's 764 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: asshole behavior. And if all of that stuff can be 765 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: picked up, documented, and then everybody who's doing it gets 766 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: sanctioned for it, in the book, it proposes that we 767 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: call him out and retrain them in you know, in 768 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,719 Speaker 1: that case, in uh, you know, some kind of literacy 769 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:34,240 Speaker 1: about social etiquette. Then all of that behavior is gone, 770 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,920 Speaker 1: and she and every other woman can walk around New 771 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,319 Speaker 1: York City without that happening anymore. You know. That's the 772 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 1: kind of thing that the book is proposing, is that 773 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: we just create a system so that this crap that 774 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: happens to normal people as they're living their lives gets 775 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,360 Speaker 1: documented and the people who are doing it gets shut 776 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: down and and we eliminate this huge amount of you know, 777 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: societal junk and misery from the Mars colony. So this 778 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: brings us to anonymity. Is we have discussed on this 779 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: show on several occasions about how personal privacy is increasingly 780 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,160 Speaker 1: becoming a thing of the past or a privilege, you know, 781 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,279 Speaker 1: for the elite, a new currency if you will. Yes, 782 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: Ben has the best ideas on this, and im that 783 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: don't mean to jump on those, but um in the 784 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: thought experiment, it goes into this same AI, which is 785 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: keeping track of the work you're doing and that you 786 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 1: need to do, is also tracking where you are at 787 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:42,320 Speaker 1: all times, and coupled with the proposed body cameras, anything 788 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,399 Speaker 1: that goes wrong can be proven immediately. This is where 789 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: person A is and where person B is. Person A 790 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: stopped breathing, person B is at fault, that that kind 791 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: of scenario. But I know that thought of being constantly 792 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: tracked and being constantly watched or watching UH is terrifying 793 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: to a lot of people listening and is not something 794 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 1: they would want to be a part of. Why could 795 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,440 Speaker 1: it be a a really good thing. I'll take it 796 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 1: even not a less diplomatic route. I mean, to me, 797 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: when I first read some of this stuff, it struck 798 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: me as like the plot of like every dystopian sci 799 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,640 Speaker 1: fi book I've read in high school. I mean, it 800 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,720 Speaker 1: has that sense. But I'm wondering, like, how is this better? 801 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: How is this not that? And how would it not 802 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 1: be abused? Right? So, I think one thing to understand 803 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,800 Speaker 1: is that we're going down this path already. You know, 804 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,800 Speaker 1: if we went back to the seventeen hundreds, we had 805 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 1: an aonymity and there was no way for anybody really 806 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: to get rid of it. But today we're well past 807 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,240 Speaker 1: the halfway point. You know, like every everything I charge 808 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 1: on my credit card is tracked, every camera I walked 809 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:03,320 Speaker 1: past looks at me, my cell phone tracks every step 810 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,400 Speaker 1: I take. Already, you know, like all this stuff is happening, 811 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 1: and it's just happening in degrees. So why don't we 812 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: just fast forward and take it to its limit, you 813 00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: know where it's going to end up anyway, and then ask, 814 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: now that everyone has no anonymity, what are the advantages 815 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: of that? And the advantage is that you can radically 816 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: reduce crime, and any crime that does occur, you can 817 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 1: instantly know who did it. There's no more of this 818 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: detective that has to go around. And you know, it 819 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,439 Speaker 1: takes a whole hour for the show to figure out 820 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,720 Speaker 1: what the the murderer's identity was. You know, we watched 821 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,279 Speaker 1: these cops shows on television. It takes days, weeks to 822 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,640 Speaker 1: solve these crimes. Well, you now know the perpetrator instantly, 823 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:57,080 Speaker 1: and you can get all those criminals out of society 824 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,799 Speaker 1: so that again, the rest of us can live our 825 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: lives without the misery that they're causing. I don't I 826 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,520 Speaker 1: don't think any of us has anonymity anymore. There's a 827 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,400 Speaker 1: patina that makes us think, you know, and there are 828 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:19,440 Speaker 1: places where we can gain it, but like, why not 829 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: just embrace it and take advantage of every benefit that 830 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: it has to offer. If we remove anonymity from the equation. 831 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,399 Speaker 1: I think that's a really I think that's a really 832 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: fascinating point because you know, we're we're almost looking at 833 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:42,319 Speaker 1: two different paths for um, you know, the removal of privacy. UH. 834 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,600 Speaker 1: Currently in the in the system we've mentioned, the terrestrial system, 835 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:52,239 Speaker 1: we have the removal of privacy largely for UH corporate 836 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:57,960 Speaker 1: interest and largely for state control. There's not very much 837 00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: compelling evidence that uh, illegal wire tapping activities have actually stopped, 838 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,759 Speaker 1: for instance, the great boogeyman of our time terrorism. But 839 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,520 Speaker 1: there's pretty compelling evidence rather that this information has been 840 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,080 Speaker 1: sold at a profit right and the people generating the 841 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,839 Speaker 1: information don't profit from it. Um. I would like that 842 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,360 Speaker 1: just add on, uh, just the dovetail what you said marshall. Um. 843 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,320 Speaker 1: We have to remember as well that this is not Earth. 844 00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:32,040 Speaker 1: People can't walk outside and live off the land by 845 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:36,359 Speaker 1: a coast somewhere, you know. Uh. So, so anonymity I 846 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:42,200 Speaker 1: think uh could be disadvantageous in a situation where disasters 847 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: are much more likely. And if one thing goes wrong 848 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,719 Speaker 1: with this very delicate mobile ecosystem, uh, and we don't 849 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,279 Speaker 1: know where people are, then we would just have to 850 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:58,520 Speaker 1: assume they have died. Like so is it? Does anonymity 851 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,960 Speaker 1: also provide um? We talked about crime for um or 852 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: excuse me? Does the lack of anonymity? Does constant surveillance 853 00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: also provide benefits beyond just person on person crime? Right? 854 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: It has you know, a lot of advantages. And the 855 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,320 Speaker 1: other thing about Mars is that we will know every 856 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,719 Speaker 1: single person who's there. You know, they all cost a 857 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,719 Speaker 1: million dollars each to get there or something. So it's 858 00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,680 Speaker 1: not like, uh, you know, the United States has this 859 00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,600 Speaker 1: weird problem right now where ten or eleven million people 860 00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 1: are here illegally, like technically they don't exist in our 861 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,640 Speaker 1: society because they aren't, uh, you know, registered citizens of 862 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: the society. That can't happen on Mars. That's sort of 863 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,840 Speaker 1: the ultimate anonymity. If you think about it, you just 864 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 1: walk over a border and you're in the United States. 865 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:59,880 Speaker 1: Is this kind of ghost doing things that you know 866 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:05,160 Speaker 1: that are completely untracked. That's you know, that's not a 867 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,880 Speaker 1: good situation for society to be in either. So on Mars, 868 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,799 Speaker 1: you know every single person who's there. We already know 869 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 1: the location of everybody from their cell phones. So we 870 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:22,200 Speaker 1: simply take advantage of that when crimes occur and and 871 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,240 Speaker 1: know who was where when the crime happened. And suddenly 872 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:31,280 Speaker 1: every crime, just about every crime is solvable in that 873 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:38,320 Speaker 1: kind of scenario, which has an incredible reductive force on 874 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,280 Speaker 1: the on the crime that's going to happen. And this, 875 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,840 Speaker 1: since we're talking about population, I have a I have 876 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:51,040 Speaker 1: a couple of different questions I wanted to explore, and 877 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna save one for the end if that's okay 878 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:59,560 Speaker 1: with everybody. But right now, well, let's stay on society. 879 00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,440 Speaker 1: So one of the one of the things that I 880 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:07,040 Speaker 1: think is implied, and it's it's explicitly stated in the book. 881 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,160 Speaker 1: I think it's implied in the proposition of people living 882 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:15,360 Speaker 1: on Mars is that the way as society grows and 883 00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:21,880 Speaker 1: the way generation cycle will have to be radically different. Right. Um, 884 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:28,680 Speaker 1: so what would what would change about, say, reproduction on 885 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:33,880 Speaker 1: Mars or you know, Um, it reminds me of Okay, 886 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,120 Speaker 1: this is kind of a deep cut for for sci 887 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 1: fi nerds in the crowd. Um, but do you all 888 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,880 Speaker 1: remember Logan's Run? Do you do you remember that one? Marshall, 889 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 1: I have not seen that movie and illiterate when it 890 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: claims the Logan's Run. Uh. In Logan's Run, there is 891 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:57,760 Speaker 1: a there there is Uh. It's like an post apocalyptic 892 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 1: thing where in a lot of the members of a 893 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:06,720 Speaker 1: society are given a specific amount of time during which 894 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,080 Speaker 1: they live, you know, and after that timeline expires, they 895 00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:17,439 Speaker 1: are um, they you know, they are eliminated. Uh. One 896 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,480 Speaker 1: thing that's interesting about that is, it focuses on the 897 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,800 Speaker 1: end of human life. But in in your book, in 898 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,960 Speaker 1: your exploration here we talk a little bit about reproduction, 899 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,160 Speaker 1: about the beginning of human life, which is pretty much. Um. 900 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,920 Speaker 1: You know, nowadays, nobody would have to pass the test 901 00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,000 Speaker 1: to have a child. Nobody would have to And when 902 00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:42,640 Speaker 1: I say tests, you know, you know, I mean like 903 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: no one would have to pass some sort of socioeconomic 904 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,360 Speaker 1: litmus tests like can you afford a child? Uh, do 905 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:54,080 Speaker 1: you have any health problems, etcetera. Um, would this change 906 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 1: on Mars? Well, first of all, I haven't written this 907 00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,680 Speaker 1: chapter yet, although it's coming. Second of all, it is 908 01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:07,040 Speaker 1: a great question because in the United States anyway, once 909 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:15,160 Speaker 1: someone becomes fertile, they can have a child. And in addition, 910 01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,080 Speaker 1: anybody who's fertile can have as many children as she wants. 911 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:25,360 Speaker 1: And uh, she can do that with absolutely no training 912 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,720 Speaker 1: of any kind. Notes you know, training or you mentioned 913 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:35,920 Speaker 1: background checks or uh, you know she's strung out on heroin. 914 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,960 Speaker 1: You know, nothing stops someone from having a child in 915 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:46,520 Speaker 1: today's society. And the question you would ask about Mars, 916 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:51,280 Speaker 1: is that an appropriate way to be raising children? And 917 01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:55,320 Speaker 1: should it be rethought? The cool thing about the thought 918 01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 1: experiment of Mars is that it is this blank sheet 919 01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:02,000 Speaker 1: of paper. So would you reath think how parenthood would 920 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:07,560 Speaker 1: work in a situation like Mars where everybody's living under 921 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,960 Speaker 1: a bubble and you can't necessarily just have the population 922 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:18,120 Speaker 1: explode without some forethought and some adjustment. And the other 923 01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:23,760 Speaker 1: thing that's happening is that human lifespan is is stretching 924 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: out right now. So there's a number of different large 925 01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,600 Speaker 1: organizations working on making people immortal, and a lot of 926 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,160 Speaker 1: speculation that our lifespans are about to get much much 927 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:40,320 Speaker 1: longer in the near term future. So in in all, 928 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,880 Speaker 1: you think about all those things, and and the question 929 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,240 Speaker 1: for the Mars colony is can anybody just have a 930 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:52,800 Speaker 1: kid whenever they feel like it? And if not, how 931 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,040 Speaker 1: do you how do you organize the system that's going 932 01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:01,760 Speaker 1: to to make reproduction more rational in the Mars environment? 933 01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:06,600 Speaker 1: And it's like a lot of these questions. It really 934 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,720 Speaker 1: makes you think, like deeply about how we run our 935 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,880 Speaker 1: society today. Why should anybody, you know, like I have 936 01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,640 Speaker 1: four kids, I had no training when I had four children, 937 01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Like why not what a barber, for example, in these 938 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,360 Speaker 1: fis of training just to cut a person's hair, like, 939 01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:28,919 Speaker 1: how is it possible that I'm a parent without any 940 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:36,160 Speaker 1: training at all? It's it's weird, Marshall, is that when 941 01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,480 Speaker 1: it's my kids might have some interesting perspectives on this, 942 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,120 Speaker 1: I'm not going to let them near the phone. So 943 01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:48,080 Speaker 1: the you know, it's it's very odd to run something 944 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:54,120 Speaker 1: as important as reproduction as as loosely as we do 945 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,320 Speaker 1: on planet Earth. And if you look over at Africa 946 01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: and what's happening over there with reproduction right now, that's 947 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,480 Speaker 1: a whole another dimension of it. But that is a 948 01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,960 Speaker 1: very sticky issue, very controversial. When you start trying to 949 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,960 Speaker 1: intervene in people's reproductive systems the way they use their bodies. 950 01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:19,680 Speaker 1: People are repelled by that in general, can be but 951 01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,920 Speaker 1: the flip side of that should have should an untrained 952 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:29,800 Speaker 1: human be able to create and then mold a new 953 01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:34,040 Speaker 1: human life? You know, both sides of it are fascinating 954 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:38,200 Speaker 1: to look at and to think about. Uh, and I 955 01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,800 Speaker 1: it's something we should talk about as a society, like 956 01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:45,760 Speaker 1: it should be out there and getting discussed because the 957 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:49,720 Speaker 1: idea that a fifteen year old can have a kid 958 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,880 Speaker 1: with no training is weird that you know, we wouldn't 959 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,680 Speaker 1: let someone drive a car with no training, and we wouldn't. 960 01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,880 Speaker 1: Let you know, thousands of other activities occur in our 961 01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:09,280 Speaker 1: society without training, but bringing up a whole new human life, uh, 962 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,160 Speaker 1: and the ramifications of that are just startling to think about. 963 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 1: And and I think the Mars Colony is a great 964 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:23,160 Speaker 1: place to explore the different options. So there's uh, there's 965 01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:25,480 Speaker 1: another thing here that that occurs to us when we 966 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:30,960 Speaker 1: talk about options. Um. One thing that we we haven't 967 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:36,440 Speaker 1: addressed yet is the interaction between what would be too 968 01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,800 Speaker 1: radically different systems or you know, in the case of 969 01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,440 Speaker 1: Earth uh and Mars, one radically different system being the 970 01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,720 Speaker 1: Mars Colony, and then this pastiche of these other systems. 971 01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:54,600 Speaker 1: Of to what degree, given the distance and the chasm 972 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:59,960 Speaker 1: of space there, to what degree would the Martian colony 973 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:05,160 Speaker 1: and the people of Earth interact? That's a great question. 974 01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:10,400 Speaker 1: And like they're there are ten different forms of interaction 975 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:14,960 Speaker 1: that we might think about. So do they like just 976 01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:19,280 Speaker 1: a phone call between the two places That doesn't work, 977 01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:21,840 Speaker 1: But you can't have a phone call from Mars to 978 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:24,720 Speaker 1: Earth because of the time delay. It's as short as 979 01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,840 Speaker 1: six minutes, it gets as long as forty minutes. I 980 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: think I'm doing that off memory. But you know, you 981 01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,280 Speaker 1: you just can't have a phone call. So now that's gone. 982 01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,040 Speaker 1: That means video calls are gone. You can do email. 983 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,280 Speaker 1: They can interact that way. They can interact economically, like 984 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,920 Speaker 1: through trade, but that's hard to imagine because of the 985 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:52,680 Speaker 1: cost of moving freight around. Then there's trade of intellectual property. Uh. 986 01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,440 Speaker 1: You could develop things on Mars, you know, books, movies, 987 01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,120 Speaker 1: digital products, you can move those back in four can 988 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:04,480 Speaker 1: communicate that way with Earth. Then there's travel like moving 989 01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:09,720 Speaker 1: actual physical bodies around. That's possible, but really hard and 990 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:15,440 Speaker 1: really expensive, so unlikely to occur very many times. Uh. 991 01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:19,080 Speaker 1: And so you look at all those different forms of 992 01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:25,680 Speaker 1: of communication, the it's quite likely that Mars, the people 993 01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:30,120 Speaker 1: on Mars would spin up their own way of doing 994 01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:34,120 Speaker 1: things because of the isolation that the distance is gonna 995 01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:40,440 Speaker 1: uh force onto the two societies. It seems more plausible 996 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:44,000 Speaker 1: that they would inevitably begin to drift apart than it 997 01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:50,720 Speaker 1: does that they would maintain very very close relations um. 998 01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,400 Speaker 1: You know, most one thing we know about a lot 999 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,160 Speaker 1: of colonies in human history, just on the planet is 1000 01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,320 Speaker 1: that they end up doing their own thing eventually. And 1001 01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go uper rabbit hole with this over a 1002 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:07,680 Speaker 1: long enough timeline, would they evolve differently? Oh? I think 1003 01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:13,760 Speaker 1: that's almost certain. Yeah, over even a relatively short timeline. 1004 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:20,120 Speaker 1: Because of there's so many uh weird things about Mars, 1005 01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: from the gravity to the radiation and the places and 1006 01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 1: ways they're going to live and so on. It it's 1007 01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:31,480 Speaker 1: going to impose a lot of uh new pressures on 1008 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,200 Speaker 1: the human genome that will cause them to diverge. I 1009 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:40,040 Speaker 1: would expect sooner rather than later. So really fast, Marshal, 1010 01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:43,960 Speaker 1: the timeline for this that Elon Musk played out, can 1011 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,640 Speaker 1: you just tell us about that really fast? Well, it 1012 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 1: moves around a little bit, but the thought was that 1013 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:55,680 Speaker 1: it could start in thees and I think his architecture 1014 01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,400 Speaker 1: moves a hundred people at a time, so that would 1015 01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:04,720 Speaker 1: probably take decades, you know, a couple of decades, three 1016 01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:09,520 Speaker 1: four to move a million people across. But as soon 1017 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,080 Speaker 1: as you move any people there, they're probably going to 1018 01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,080 Speaker 1: start reproducing in some form, so you don't necessarily have 1019 01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,919 Speaker 1: to import all one million folks uh into the colony. 1020 01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:25,920 Speaker 1: But in his vision, it's starting in the twenties, and 1021 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,679 Speaker 1: it maybe is is taking to three or four decades 1022 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,240 Speaker 1: for the colony to ramp up to its full million 1023 01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,519 Speaker 1: person scale. I'm just as I was reading through, I 1024 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:40,200 Speaker 1: was trying to imagine the innovations that will be occurring 1025 01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,559 Speaker 1: with our current technology by the time the first you know, 1026 01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:48,360 Speaker 1: series of ships leaves, and then what Earth, what planet 1027 01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:50,680 Speaker 1: Earth is going to look like from maybe just a 1028 01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:55,200 Speaker 1: climate perspective at that time, And uh, I don't know. 1029 01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:59,080 Speaker 1: We just started making me a bit nervous for the future, 1030 01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,760 Speaker 1: but also you know, hopeful in a way that we 1031 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:08,320 Speaker 1: are sending these flow tillas out to Mars. So overall, 1032 01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,559 Speaker 1: I think the economic system that you have outlined here 1033 01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,720 Speaker 1: and you you've kind of proposed in all the different situations, 1034 01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:18,280 Speaker 1: it does seem like it would at least lift or 1035 01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,639 Speaker 1: it would be possible to lift everyone up to footing 1036 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:28,719 Speaker 1: that is somewhat equal from a socioeconomic standpoint, yes, agreed, 1037 01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,920 Speaker 1: less unequal, and would provide him with all the food 1038 01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:35,400 Speaker 1: that they need, um and you know, clothes and everything 1039 01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,720 Speaker 1: they need for a healthy and happy life. But in 1040 01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:44,320 Speaker 1: trying to apply that to the Earth currently or maybe 1041 01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 1: even in that time frame in the twenties and the forties, um, 1042 01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,720 Speaker 1: it seems like that won't be possible because of all 1043 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:55,920 Speaker 1: the powerful forces that currently control our system. There would 1044 01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:59,680 Speaker 1: have to be some kind of very big and elaborate 1045 01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:05,720 Speaker 1: con flict for that to occur. Right. Well, Chapter seventeen 1046 01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:10,559 Speaker 1: came out yesterday, so this is a serialized book. I 1047 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:15,360 Speaker 1: had a chapter every week, and chapter seventeen looks at 1048 01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:20,240 Speaker 1: this one interesting problem, which is the Syrian refugee problem. 1049 01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:24,080 Speaker 1: So we have pick a number, you know, a couple 1050 01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:29,000 Speaker 1: of million Syrian refugees living in pretty much absolute squalor 1051 01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:34,960 Speaker 1: in refugee camps, and there's no good solution to that 1052 01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:38,799 Speaker 1: problem on the table. So one of the things proposed 1053 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:42,360 Speaker 1: in chapter seventeen is, well, let's take these people and 1054 01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:47,759 Speaker 1: let's apply the theories of the Mars Colony to them 1055 01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:53,000 Speaker 1: today on Earth in order to improve their situation. They're 1056 01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:56,400 Speaker 1: so bad off that anything we do is an improvement. 1057 01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,120 Speaker 1: And the other thing is they're already costing money. The 1058 01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:04,720 Speaker 1: u N and NGOs in the international community are spending 1059 01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,479 Speaker 1: some amount of money, billions of dollars every year on 1060 01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:15,639 Speaker 1: this pretty much intractable problem. So I understand what you're 1061 01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:18,639 Speaker 1: saying about. You know, it's hard to imagine this happening 1062 01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:22,200 Speaker 1: on Earth, but I think a situation like the Syrian 1063 01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:27,679 Speaker 1: refugee situation, which is at a lot of people living 1064 01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:34,040 Speaker 1: in abject poverty and misery. They're already consuming resources, but 1065 01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,559 Speaker 1: it's never going to get them out of that misery. 1066 01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,280 Speaker 1: If we do it the way we're doing it now, 1067 01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:42,920 Speaker 1: it gives us a chance to think about trying something 1068 01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,439 Speaker 1: different with them. And and that's what chapter seventeen is about. 1069 01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,840 Speaker 1: Could we take these principles and bring them to life 1070 01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,960 Speaker 1: on planet Earth, you know, starting six months that use 1071 01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,200 Speaker 1: the money that's being used to support them already but 1072 01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:02,479 Speaker 1: re allocated so that they get to build themselves a 1073 01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,360 Speaker 1: modern city to live in that is really a great 1074 01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:11,439 Speaker 1: place to live as opposed to a miserable, almost prison 1075 01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 1: like existence that they're having now. Yes, I think this 1076 01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,400 Speaker 1: is This is a great point for anybody who hasn't 1077 01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:22,760 Speaker 1: read uh Chapter seventeen. As as Marshall has said, this 1078 01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:28,760 Speaker 1: is a serialized and ongoing work, Uh Marshall. As we 1079 01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:32,720 Speaker 1: as we wrap up the episode today, we want to 1080 01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,320 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time, and most importantly, 1081 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,840 Speaker 1: we want to know if you have any closing statements 1082 01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:43,519 Speaker 1: or thoughts that we have an addressed yet in the 1083 01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:48,920 Speaker 1: podcast that would be um of particular interest or use 1084 01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,360 Speaker 1: to our audience. Well, the first thing I would say 1085 01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:57,280 Speaker 1: is I would love to get feedback, positive and negative 1086 01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:01,640 Speaker 1: feedback on on the book as it's developing, and I 1087 01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:06,640 Speaker 1: already get uh a lot of really interesting thoughts. Like 1088 01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,200 Speaker 1: you guys brought up a lot of really interesting thoughts, 1089 01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:14,240 Speaker 1: and they uh, they truly helped with the development of 1090 01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:17,720 Speaker 1: the book. So my email address UH is online and 1091 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,759 Speaker 1: publicly visible. It's easy to find me on the internet, 1092 01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:23,879 Speaker 1: so you can look at the book and send me email. 1093 01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:30,960 Speaker 1: The other thing is, UH, you know, I I left 1094 01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:35,200 Speaker 1: how stuff works and one of the things I want 1095 01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,439 Speaker 1: to do with my life is solved some of the 1096 01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:44,120 Speaker 1: big problems on Earth. And this Mars Colony thought experiment 1097 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,439 Speaker 1: is a way of exploring the poverty problem and the 1098 01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:53,000 Speaker 1: concentration of wealth problem, and the inequality problem. And that 1099 01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:59,639 Speaker 1: has been a really interesting UH experience and an interesting 1100 01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:02,680 Speaker 1: x floration to try to think of a new economic 1101 01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:07,200 Speaker 1: system that would radically improve the lives of billions of 1102 01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,240 Speaker 1: people on the planet. So the more people who know 1103 01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:12,960 Speaker 1: about it and are thinking about it and are discussing 1104 01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,920 Speaker 1: ways to improve society for everyone, I think the better. 1105 01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,800 Speaker 1: What what is the website? That you do all that 1106 01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:24,320 Speaker 1: work for Marshall. It's called Marshall Brain dot com if 1107 01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:29,320 Speaker 1: you come there. UH. The Mars Colony book is UH 1108 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,320 Speaker 1: at Mars dot htm on Marshall brain dot com or 1109 01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,040 Speaker 1: you'll see links to it on the homepage. It's a 1110 01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:39,320 Speaker 1: free book. It's UH available to anyone. Lots of people 1111 01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:44,919 Speaker 1: reading it right now. So UH feedback is welcome and encouraged, 1112 01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:48,639 Speaker 1: and we also welcome our listeners to send us feedback 1113 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,800 Speaker 1: about the interview and any questions you have, UM, any 1114 01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:53,519 Speaker 1: thoughts you have about all of this stuff. We think 1115 01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:55,960 Speaker 1: it's super fascinating and we really appreciate you talking with 1116 01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,519 Speaker 1: us about it today. Marshall Brain. Thanks so much. Yeah, 1117 01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,200 Speaker 1: thank thank you so much, because I do I do 1118 01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,000 Speaker 1: want to mention as we close that this is only 1119 01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:11,400 Speaker 1: the latest in a long line of books that you 1120 01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:15,040 Speaker 1: have written, Marshall, including How God Works, the Engineering Book, 1121 01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:20,640 Speaker 1: multiple How Stuff Works books, Manna UH Teenager's Guide to 1122 01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,519 Speaker 1: the Real World. You can you can find all of 1123 01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:28,720 Speaker 1: these uh if you search online. And as Nola Marshall said, UH, 1124 01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:33,080 Speaker 1: this is this is ongoing. We want your feedback in 1125 01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:35,479 Speaker 1: a very real way. What we like to say here 1126 01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:38,000 Speaker 1: on the show is that you, the audience, are the 1127 01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,120 Speaker 1: most important part of this whole of this whole crazy thing. 1128 01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:46,160 Speaker 1: Uh so yes, Uh. Marshall Brain uh, founder of how 1129 01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:50,560 Speaker 1: Stuff Works, the author of the ongoing serialized work imagining 1130 01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:54,720 Speaker 1: Ellen Musk, million person Mars Colony. You can check it 1131 01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,400 Speaker 1: out today at Marshall Brain dot com. And if you 1132 01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:00,040 Speaker 1: want to send us feedback, you can find us on 1133 01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:05,160 Speaker 1: Twitter where we're conspiracy Stuff Conspiracy Stuff Show. On Instagram, Facebook, 1134 01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:07,519 Speaker 1: guess what, We're conspiracy stuff there too. And if you 1135 01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:09,720 Speaker 1: don't want to do any of that social media, you 1136 01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:11,400 Speaker 1: want to send us a line, or if you're on 1137 01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:14,000 Speaker 1: Mars you know, because apparently that's the best way to 1138 01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:17,320 Speaker 1: do it, send us an email. We are conspiracy at 1139 01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:18,680 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com.