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Speaker 1: On Thanksgiving two thousand and five, ninety four year old

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Speaker 1: Helen Sailor returned to her home, a high rise apartment

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Speaker 1: building for the elderly and disabled in Elkhardidiana. When phone

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Speaker 1: calls went unanswered through the following morning, family members found

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Speaker 1: Helen strangled to death, allegedly with the lanyard that had

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Speaker 1: gone missing. A partial print of dubious importance was sent

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Speaker 1: to the Indiana State Police lab. Initially, Elk Cahrd PD

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Speaker 1: had two viable suspects, but the investigation went cold. The

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Speaker 1: case became a priority again when a new homicide unit

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Speaker 1: was formed. Detective Mark Daggy had an unfounded theory involving

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Speaker 1: a string of burglaries and a younger resident the high rise,

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Speaker 1: Lana Canaan. Investigators pressured a vulnerable friend of Lana's to

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Speaker 1: claim that she had confessed to murdering Helen Sailor with

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Speaker 1: another high rise resident, a disabled man named Andy Royer,

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Speaker 1: who was dragged in for a course of interrogation resulting

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Speaker 1: in a false confession. Corroborate these false statements. They pulled

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Speaker 1: the prints from the Indiana State Police ladder and gave

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Speaker 1: them to an untrained analyst just to get him to

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Speaker 1: say the print match Faana. Andy and Lana went to

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Speaker 1: trial together and were not able to cross examine each

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Speaker 1: other to point out the glaring inconsistencies in Andy's recanted

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Speaker 1: statement between the fabricated fingerprint match, false statements, and outright

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Speaker 1: perjury by law enforcement. Both Lana and Andy were sentenced

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Speaker 1: to fifty five years in prison. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today. I have a case

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Speaker 1: out of Elkhart, Indiana, a town that I have a

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Speaker 1: bad feeling. We're going to start to know really well,

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Speaker 1: because if just one case can involve so many of

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Speaker 1: the hallmarks of wrongful convictions in the town of so

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Speaker 1: few people, what else must be out there? And the

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Speaker 1: case today involves a false confession, a coerced eye witness,

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Speaker 1: false expert testimony, prosecutorial misconduct, official misconduct, and a general

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Speaker 1: reckless and almost total disregard for the truth, justice, and

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Speaker 1: public safety. And this case is not only about what

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Speaker 1: happened to an elderly woman, Helen Sailor, but also the

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Speaker 1: two people who were wrongfully convicted, Vlana Kane and the

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Speaker 1: man who is with us today, Andy Royer. Andy, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. And with him is his

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Speaker 1: attorney from the Notre Dame Exoneration Justice Clinic. I've never

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Speaker 1: seen someone who is more effective at breaking down the

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Speaker 1: blue wall of silence. Elliott Slosar, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a little about where this story takes place.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Elkhart, you know, small town, Indiana, approximately forty fifty

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Speaker 4: thousand people. I think it still considers itself the RV

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Speaker 4: capital of the world. RVs are less used now than

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Speaker 4: then we're in the nineties, but it's a town that

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Speaker 4: you know, at its height, people were moving from all

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Speaker 4: over the Midwest to go work there and work in

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Speaker 4: the factories and you know, build better lives. You know

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Speaker 4: when the RV stuff sort of slowed down is when

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Speaker 4: Elkhart became more written with crime. That uptick ultimately produced

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Speaker 4: a lot of wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: Right, And as we saw all over the country in

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Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, you had an uptick in crime,

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Speaker 1: and politicians then ran quote unquote tough on crime campaigns,

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Speaker 1: which I have to say is just nonsense. It's really

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Speaker 1: just tough on people. Those things never result in a

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Speaker 1: reduction in crime, but anyway, that led to an era

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Speaker 1: when the authorities were just playing fast and loose with

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Speaker 1: the rules and the civil rights of our fellow Americans,

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Speaker 1: arresting just about anyone in order to close cases, which,

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Speaker 1: of course, as we often recognize here on the show,

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Speaker 1: it leaves the trooper out on the street, ready and

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Speaker 1: willing to commit more crimes in most cases.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think systemically Elkhart have had police miss conduct

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Speaker 4: problems dating back to the sixties and seventies. There was

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Speaker 4: a real lack of training in place and a real

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Speaker 4: acceptance and even encouragement of police mist conduct, and that

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Speaker 4: stuff did not end in the nineties.

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Speaker 3: And you know, they've had a lot of wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 4: Five exonerations so far, five exonerations out of a population

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Speaker 4: of fifty thousand, five exonerations. You know, we've got like

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Speaker 4: another dozen wrongfully convicted clients from Melkart who are still trying.

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Speaker 3: To come home.

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Speaker 4: And that's only like the tip of what we're uncovering there.

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Speaker 1: Right, So we're talking about seventeen out of a population

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Speaker 1: of fifty thousand, and those are just the ones we

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Speaker 1: know about. I mean, just to give you a comparison.

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Speaker 1: By the way, there have been three hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: exonerations in New York City. Now there are plenty more

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Speaker 1: people fighting for justice as we speak, innocent as could be,

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Speaker 1: but still three hundred and thirty in a city of

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Speaker 1: about eight and a half million people. That nets out

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Speaker 1: to about four per one hundred thousand.

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Speaker 4: I think that per capita Elkhart, Indiana, the city will

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Speaker 4: be the wrongful conviction capital in the US.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. I read another case out of Elkhart,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Edgar Garrett in the nineties when interrogations

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Speaker 1: were all video recorded. It's a false confession case which

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Speaker 1: preceded Andy's. But Edgar Garrett was acquitted because the jury

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Speaker 1: saw the interrogation. And I bring it up to illustrate

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Speaker 1: the systemic problem in Elkhart. Can you tell us about

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Speaker 1: that case?

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Speaker 4: What happened in the case with Edgar Garrett? He was

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Speaker 4: a father accused of murdering his child. The child wasn't

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Speaker 4: found yet the police interrogate him for twelve hours. This

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Speaker 4: is like back in like ninety three, ninety four. It's

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Speaker 4: all video recorded, same interrogations rooms. As you know, Andy,

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Speaker 4: a decade later, when that interrogation was going on. It

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Speaker 4: produced a false confession where edgar Garrett falsely confessed to

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Speaker 4: killing his daughter by hitting her.

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Speaker 3: Over the head with like a pipe.

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Speaker 4: They hadn't found the body yet. They then took Garrett

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Speaker 4: to the crime scene, did a reenactment with him. A

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Speaker 4: couple weeks later, they find the body. The daughter is

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Speaker 4: stabbed to death like dozens and dozens of times. She

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Speaker 4: wasn't killed by being hit in the head, and they're like, oh, shoot,

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Speaker 4: so like in hell, caart what they did? They went

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Speaker 4: forward with the death penalty trial. The jury was shown

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Speaker 4: the interrogation video. They found Eggre Garrett not guilty, and

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Speaker 4: the jurors were interviewed and what they'd said was we

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Speaker 4: saw that it was the cops confession that Egregarrett was

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Speaker 4: just repeating it, that they browbeat him into a false confession.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, this is why we obviously and desperately

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Speaker 1: need videotaping of all interactions with police. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: identification proceedings, witness interviews, interrogations, because when a jury witnesses

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Speaker 1: how these things go down, they can better assess the

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Speaker 1: validity of each of these pieces of evidence.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent so they do this dayline episode, the

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Speaker 4: Electric prosecutors on there, Michael Consteina, and they're like, boy,

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Speaker 4: you know, mister Constantino, this seems like you've got a problem.

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Speaker 4: Like the guy canfest in a different way than the

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Speaker 4: daughter was killed.

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Speaker 3: That's a real problem. You know.

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Speaker 4: Weren't you concerned about that? He's like, well, you know,

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Speaker 4: wasn't good for the case.

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Speaker 1: Which of course begs the question why did they go

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Speaker 1: forward with the prosecution, let alone go for the death penalty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so he went forward with it anyways. And so

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Speaker 4: at the end of the episode, there's this fascinating thing

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Speaker 4: where they're like, and we've spoken to the city of

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Speaker 4: Elkhart and they have now changed their policies and they

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Speaker 4: were no longer video recording interrogations.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, faced with the reality that this man had

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Speaker 1: not killed his daughter and was coerced at to saying

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Speaker 1: that he had, the remedy was not to reprimand the

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Speaker 1: officer or figured out some safeguards against getting false confessions. No,

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Speaker 1: their solution was to remove the transparency, and that of

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Speaker 1: course set the stage for what happened in Andy's case.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into that aspect of it, go

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Speaker 1: back to before any of this happened, Andy, what was

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Speaker 1: your life like growing up in Elkhart. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about your childhood.

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Speaker 2: I had a stepdad and he was around for us

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Speaker 2: all the time and it turned out good. So.

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Speaker 1: And what were some of your favorite things to do?

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Speaker 2: Swimming and playing baseball? Junior minor leagues?

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Speaker 1: Wow, junior minor leagues. You must have been a pretty

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Speaker 1: decent athlete there, you know.

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Speaker 2: It was It kept me busy during the summer.

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Speaker 1: So you kept busy and never were in trouble with

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Speaker 1: the police. What about school?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a's and b's and great.

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Speaker 1: So you excelled in sports and in school. But then

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Speaker 1: you later went on to qualify to live in a

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Speaker 1: high rise building specifically for elderly people and people with

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Speaker 1: disabilities because of a tragic accident. Do you feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: telling us about that?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: I totally understand. Is it okay if Elliott tells us

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Speaker 1: about it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Andy was working and suffered you know, a really really

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Speaker 4: tragic accident while working, you know, one of those telephone poles.

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Speaker 4: He pushed somebody out of the way it was going

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Speaker 4: to fall in. Another colleague and it caused for Andy

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Speaker 4: to suffer significant traumatic injury to his hand, and so

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Speaker 4: he's lost part of his middle finger.

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Speaker 3: He only has half of it.

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Speaker 4: He saved somebody's life in the process. But the fascinating

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Speaker 4: thing was that the trauma that Andy endured from that

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Speaker 4: experience like rewired his brain, and so Andy now suffers,

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Speaker 4: you know, significant cognitive functioning disabilities that like he didn't

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Speaker 4: have as a teenager.

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Speaker 1: Well, Andy, I know you don't want to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: but what you did was just straight heroic and it's

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Speaker 1: something you should be very proud of.

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Speaker 2: I'm proud of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would be too. And so you were living

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Speaker 1: in this high rise, struggling to acclimate and adjust to

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Speaker 1: life having gone through this tragic accent, and that's when

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Speaker 1: you offended Lana Canaan, who ends up the second wrongful

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Speaker 1: conviction survivor in this story. Now, from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: the detective in this case had previously had a theory

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Speaker 1: that Lana may have been responsible for or a few

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Speaker 1: burglaries in the high rise. Now he had nothing to

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Speaker 1: actually back that up other than that she had dated

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Speaker 1: a maintenance guy there and could have plausibly theoretically had

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Speaker 1: access to his keys, so pretty much just pure speculation.

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Speaker 1: But she was on the mind of at least one

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Speaker 1: detective before all of this happened. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about your relationship to her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to hang around her. She didn't seem

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Speaker 2: like trouble somebody talk to and just as a friend.

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Speaker 1: Dude, either of you remember what brought her to the

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Speaker 1: high rise.

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Speaker 4: My understanding is that Lana had some sort of mental

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Speaker 4: health struggle that qualified as a disability which allowed for

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Speaker 4: her to live there. I'm not sure the exact type.

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Speaker 4: She was functioning at a much higher rate than Andy was.

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Speaker 1: At the time, and the prosecution then used that as

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Speaker 1: a way to say that Andy was the muscle under

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Speaker 1: Lana's control in an incident that neither of you had

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Speaker 1: anything to do with the murder of another resident at

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Speaker 1: the high rise, a ninety four year old blind woman

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Speaker 1: named Helen Sailor. And this blind woman she lived alone,

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Speaker 1: but she had a home healthcare worker to a sister

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Speaker 1: in her daily task including filling up her medications, and

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Speaker 1: it's believed that she was killed sometime in the evening

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Speaker 1: on November twenty eighth, Thanksgiving, two thousand and two.

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Speaker 4: So they had a family dinner. You know, Helen was

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Speaker 4: dropped off at the high rise. I think sometime in

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Speaker 4: the early evening. Her home healthcare worker called, as she

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Speaker 4: usually would to, you know, say hey, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: be there the next morning to help you out, please,

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Speaker 4: you know, have the door unlocked or whatever. And there

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Speaker 4: were some phone calls that were missed that night. The

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Speaker 4: next morning she also didn't answer, and so ultimately the

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Speaker 4: home health care nurse arrived, the family came, They unlocked

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Speaker 4: the door, and inside they found a deceased Helen Saylor.

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Speaker 1: And one of her relatives was Elkhard PD Lieutenant Paul Converts,

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Speaker 1: who initially led this investigation. Now, Helen had been strangled

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Speaker 1: to death, and they believed that it may have been

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Speaker 1: done with a missing lanyard.

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Speaker 4: Right, so she had like a lanyard around her neck,

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Speaker 4: would have like her key on it. They couldn't find that,

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Speaker 4: and so the thought was that if she was strangled,

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Speaker 4: that it likely would have been that the perpetrator used

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Speaker 4: that lanyard. There were no signs of like forced entry,

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Speaker 4: and so the police sort of suspected that she either

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Speaker 4: opened her door voluntarily or this is somebody who had

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Speaker 4: a key there was some like pretty significant physical evidence

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Speaker 4: that was there.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that they found on her was

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Speaker 4: like a cranberry like substance, like a sticky substance around her.

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Speaker 4: And they also found a pill bottle out on the counter.

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Speaker 4: They ended up recovering a latent print from that pill

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Speaker 4: bottle that became an issue later on in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's this partial fingerprint on the pill bottle

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Speaker 1: in an apartment that is frequented by home healthcare workers.

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Speaker 1: But if that print belonged to someone who didn't belong

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Speaker 1: in the apartment, like Lanna Canaan, then that would appear

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Speaker 1: to be damning evidence. Unfortunately, the subjectivity a fingerprint analysis

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Speaker 1: plays heavily in this case, as it does in so

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Speaker 1: many cases. Fingerprints do have appropriate value, but the analysis

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Speaker 1: comes down to a subjective comparison made by a highly

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Speaker 1: fallible human being. This type of analysis is hardly as

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Speaker 1: exact as we've all been led to believe. Now, I

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Speaker 1: encourage our audience to listen to our episode of Junk

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Speaker 1: Science ronfl Coviction Junk Science, where our host Josh Duben

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Speaker 1: does a deep dive on this subject. We're going to

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Speaker 1: have it linked in the bio please check it out.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, the analysis was later proven to

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Speaker 1: be wholly unreliable, but let's put a pin in that

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Speaker 1: for now. So we've got no werner weapon, a partial

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Speaker 1: print which may or may not have had anything to

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Speaker 1: do with the crime, no signs of a break in,

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Speaker 1: which means the perp probably either new missailor or had

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Speaker 1: a key or forced their way in while the door

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Speaker 1: was still a lot. They did DNA testing of her fingernails,

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Speaker 1: detecting only missailors DNA. And then you've got what might

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Speaker 1: be cranberry sauce residue, potentially from somebody thanksgiving leftovers. It

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Speaker 1: was Thanksgiving it for all, but hardly anything to go on.

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Speaker 1: And this investigation happened in almost like phases, the first

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Speaker 1: of which was before ELK CARDPD had a homicide unit.

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Speaker 1: And in this first phase, the detectives from the Criminal

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Speaker 1: Investigation Division did a surprisingly good job at developing leads

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Speaker 1: with this little to go on.

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Speaker 4: These initial leads, there were two really good alternative suspects developed.

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Speaker 4: The first one and you know this isn't a shocker.

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Speaker 4: It's like, well, you want to see who the victim

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Speaker 4: has contact with how about the guy who delivers her medicine.

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Speaker 4: And so they looked at this guy, Larry Wood. They

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Speaker 4: went to his apartment. I believe it was the day

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Speaker 4: that the body was found. He was very, very anxious.

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Speaker 4: According to the officers, they found his shoes and on

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Speaker 4: the shoes was blood and they did luminol testing inside

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Speaker 4: the apartment which confirmed it was blood, and then they

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Speaker 4: took the shoes and so they had this guy. They

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Speaker 4: asked Larry at first, they were like, hey, Larry, when's

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Speaker 4: the last time you saw Helen Sailor? And He's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: saw her on Thanksgiving evening, after she got dropped off

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Speaker 4: by her family. You know, I helped her the elevator.

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Speaker 4: And that becomes important because later when Larry's confronted in

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Speaker 4: an interrogation like setting at the Olkcar Police department, he

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Speaker 4: changes his story and said, oh, I think I actually

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Speaker 4: went on the elevator with her, and I may have

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Speaker 4: walked her into the apartment. And so Larry would, by

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Speaker 4: all respects, was like the last person to see Helen

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Speaker 4: Sailor alive. He would later fail a polygraph exam. You know,

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Speaker 4: I know polygraph is an admissible evidence in court, but

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Speaker 4: like this is a guy that like should have like

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Speaker 4: raised every single red flag. So that was like suspect

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Speaker 4: number one. Suspect number two is this guy named Tony

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Speaker 4: Thomas who was like visiting his grandmother at the high

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Speaker 4: rise over that weekend. He had previously been convicted of

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Speaker 4: murder in like Kansas or somewhere, and was acting very

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Speaker 4: very suspicious that day. And the early investigation they spoke

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Speaker 4: to people who saw Tony Thomas on the elevator clicking

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Speaker 4: the buttons for every floor. And this would have been

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Speaker 4: after the time that Helen Saylor got home, and so

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Speaker 4: there was some real question as to whether he may

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Speaker 4: have gotten off on the floor that Helen lived on

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Speaker 4: and tried to take money that way, because he was

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Speaker 4: asking other people for money in the high rise. What's

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Speaker 4: fascinating about Tony Thomas. You would think, hey, convicted murder,

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Speaker 4: you bring him to the police station, you'd interrogate him.

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Speaker 4: There's nothing indicating that they ever did that. And the

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Speaker 4: initial investigators they didn't charge anybody, and eventually they consider

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Speaker 4: the case to be cold. And so I think by

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Speaker 4: like the summer of two thousand and three, so this is,

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Speaker 4: you know, roughly six seven months later, that's when the

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Speaker 4: Elkhar Police Department formed their homicide unit. Lieutenant Converse was

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Speaker 4: in charge of it. This case became the first case

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Speaker 4: that the homicide unit ever investigated. In Lieutenant Converse, we

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Speaker 4: believe you know, was determined to close the case for

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Speaker 4: a relative of his who got killed.

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Speaker 1: But instead of racking those promising leads from phase one

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Speaker 1: of the investigations, the newly formed homicide unit assigned the

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Speaker 1: case to lead Detective Carl Conway and Detective Mark dag

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Speaker 1: who took the case in the wrong direction. So what

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Speaker 1: happens in this next phase of the investigation.

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Speaker 4: Phase two of the investigation was how they framed Andy

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Speaker 4: and Lana. By like August the two thousand and three,

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Speaker 4: this was a cold case and Daggie was like obsessed

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Speaker 4: with Lana Keenan, Like he thought that Lana had committed

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Speaker 4: burglaries in the high rise because she was dating this

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Speaker 4: maintenance worker, so she would have access to a key,

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Speaker 4: he thought. And he can never develop proble cause to

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Speaker 4: charge with any of those burglaries, like he kept coming

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Speaker 4: after and coming after, can never charge on Alna was like,

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Speaker 4: I didn't do any of this stuff, you know, leave

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Speaker 4: me alone. You're like really annoying me. And so Daggy

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Speaker 4: couldn't get her on this. So when him and Conway

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Speaker 4: came up, they're like, Oh, we're gonna go get Lana Kanaan.

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Speaker 4: So on September one, two thousand and three, Lana Cayden

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Speaker 4: Anita Porter are drive in in a car and they

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Speaker 4: get pulled over for like super minor traffic infractions. And

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Speaker 4: at the time, Nina Porter was on prol so she

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Speaker 4: had a lot at risk. But in that interaction, Nina

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Speaker 4: Porter was never like I have information about a murder,

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Speaker 4: nothing like that. The only thing of value was that

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Speaker 4: Lana was taken into costody as a result of that

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Speaker 4: traffic stop. Detective Conway found out and he talked to

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Speaker 4: patrol officer, and patrol officer was like, oh, yeah, Lana

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Speaker 4: was with this woman named Nina Porter. And so Conway

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Speaker 4: took it on his own volition to show up at

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Speaker 4: Nina Porter's house the next day.

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Speaker 1: And from what I understand is that Carl Conway was

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Speaker 1: known for being a case closer, so to speak, who

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Speaker 1: would use intimidation tactics to get what he wanted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think now Detective Conway is known for

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Speaker 4: all of his feelings in this particular case. It's what

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Speaker 4: led to the end of his career. But you know,

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Speaker 4: he had a reputation in the department for getting confessions

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Speaker 4: and closing cases. I mean, the guy is massive. He's

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Speaker 4: likely sixty five sixty six, two fifty to three hundred pounds.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like a really scary guy in the interrogation room,

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Speaker 1: Andy who was. He's not somebody you won't show up

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Speaker 1: on your front doorstep either, like he did with Nina Porter.

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Speaker 1: And the details of that interaction didn't come out until

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Speaker 1: Nina testified about fifteen or sixteen years later in post conviction.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what she said about that?

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Speaker 4: What Nina Porter says is that Conway shows up at

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Speaker 4: her house, threatening her from the jump to tell her

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Speaker 4: something about implicating Lana Keenan and the murder of Helen Sailor,

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Speaker 4: and Nina's like, I don't know any think I don't

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Speaker 4: know anything. He then threatens to like violate her parle,

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Speaker 4: have her kids removed, then takes her down to the

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Speaker 4: police station and interrogates the heck out of this woman

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Speaker 4: who is super vulnerable. At some point he promises her

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Speaker 4: reward too, because you know reward money have been offering

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Speaker 4: up by the home healthcare company that you know assisted

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Speaker 4: Helen Taylor, and so like just coerces the heck out

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Speaker 4: of this woman for hours to fabricate a fallse statement

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Speaker 4: implicating Laana and Andy and the murder of Helen Sailor.

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Speaker 1: It is so freaking disturbing how normalized that tactic of

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Speaker 1: threatening to take someone's children away is for the police.

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Speaker 1: It's like as common as donuts, but much more sinister.

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Speaker 1: And Nina later in post conviction had so much more

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Speaker 1: to say about the absurd way in which Conway took

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Speaker 1: this false statement.

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Speaker 4: So during a recorded setment, imagine this con is showing

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Speaker 4: her pictures and on the back of it there were

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Speaker 4: phrases that she was supposed to repeat once he turned

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Speaker 4: the recorder on. The story was that Lana keenan over

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Speaker 4: the Fourth of July holiday like stall Nina Porter at

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Speaker 4: a high rise picnic or something, and was just like

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Speaker 4: talking about killing Helen Sailor in like very vague ways.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things she remembered that she was

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Speaker 4: supposed to say was that Lana told her Thanksgiving thanks

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Speaker 4: for giving death, that that's what thanksgiving mentor which is

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Speaker 4: an absurd thing. And then you know, made some other

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Speaker 4: comment implicating her and Andy in the murder by saying

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Speaker 4: that I had like complete control over Andy and so

400
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Speaker 4: she was basically the brains and Andy was the bron

401
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Speaker 4: and that was something that the police had feed to

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Speaker 4: her as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now they have the probable cause they needed

404
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: to drag you and Lana in for question. Lana denied

405
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Speaker 1: any Vomban and was initially that go. But that's not

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Speaker 1: how it went with you. Andy, tell us about when

407
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Speaker 1: they picked you up.

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Speaker 2: I was in my apartment and I heard a knock

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Speaker 2: on the door and they said, do you want to

410
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Speaker 2: come down? And we want to question you know, I

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Speaker 2: thought nothing of it. I wasn't even sure what it

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Speaker 2: was for because I had never heard about the murders.

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Speaker 1: So and when they interrogated you over the course of

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Speaker 1: September third and fourth, how did they come at you?

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Speaker 1: What did they say to you?

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Speaker 2: We know you have ties with Atlanta and what do

417
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Speaker 2: means to you? And what do you know about the murder?

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Speaker 2: And what I was trying to say is I didn't

419
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Speaker 2: have nothing to do with it. I told him that too.

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Speaker 2: He just kept twisting and twisting away, repeating himself asking

421
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Speaker 2: me what'd you choke her with? And how'd you get

422
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Speaker 2: in the door? And how was Lana involved with this?

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Speaker 1: And it's not like they were oblivious to your cognitive

424
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: impairment health. It was part of their theory of how

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Speaker 1: Lana could control you. So at some point, after hours

426
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Speaker 1: of this intense pressure, you finally gave in, thinking that

427
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Speaker 1: you'd be able to leave if you said what they wanted.

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Speaker 1: Is that accurate?

429
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Speaker 2: Yes, I just I gave up. They fed me lines, and.

430
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Speaker 1: As we have seen in so many false confessions, the

431
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: lines that they fed you ended up being the only

432
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Speaker 1: things that could be verified, while the information that solely

433
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: came from you, Andy was riddled with falsehoods, nonsense, and

434
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Speaker 1: inconsistencies for the simple and obvious reason that you knew

435
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: nothing about the crime and Elliott, you were able to

436
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: get Conway to admit to this, right, which is insane?

437
00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: Can you take us through that?

438
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 4: But Conway eventually admitted to this. Is like at Andy's

439
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 4: evidentiary hearing, was that the only two pieces of information

440
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 4: that they were able to corroberate they were actually true

441
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 4: was the fact that he lived in the high rise

442
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 4: at the time of the murder, and that he knew

443
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 4: Lana Kanan. Everything else that was like in his statement

444
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 4: was proven to either be false or Detective Conway admitted

445
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 4: to feeding Andy.

446
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 3: First.

447
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 4: You know, a couple of the examples of the stuff

448
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 4: that was false is they got Andy to say that

449
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 4: he sold Helen Sailors, like some r jewelry or something

450
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 4: at like a pawnshop. They went to the pawnshop. The

451
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 4: records objectively proved that Andy Royer never sold anything there.

452
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 4: Another thing is they got Andy to say that like

453
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 4: he cleaned up the apartment with some like towels and

454
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 4: threw them down the chute, the trash chute. During the

455
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 4: underlying investigation, they actually learned that the trash chute was

456
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 4: broken from like the twelfth floor down or something like that.

457
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 4: There was also another thing where you know, they're like,

458
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 4: you know, what liquid did you pour on her? And

459
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 4: Andy said milk. That was wrong because they knew it

460
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 4: was like a Cranberry saw substance and wasn't milk. So like,

461
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 4: unless Conway actually was telling him stuff that was consistent

462
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 4: with the investigation, everything else was objectively wrong.

463
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: And they knew that.

464
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 4: And you know, the biggest piece of evidence that we

465
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 4: had that showed the unreliability of the statement was after

466
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 4: the statement, According to Detective Conway's report, Andy asked can

467
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 4: I go home now?

468
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 3: And Conway had to tell.

469
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 4: Andy that he just gave a confession to murder and

470
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 4: didn't even know right.

471
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode

472
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: of awful conviction and of the Last Mile organization, which

473
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully

474
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: and permanently reenter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed

475
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 1: to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations

476
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.

477
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation

478
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: or the Last Mile program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or

479
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: the Lastmile dot org.

480
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 4: So what they did, though, was because the statement was

481
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: so botched, as a captain Andy in custody at the

482
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 4: police department overnight after charging him with murder so that

483
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 4: they can interrogate him the next day, which lake never happens.

484
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 4: If you get a confession that's legitimate, why you need

485
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 4: to keep this guy the next day? And the interrogate

486
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 4: him again. He had already been charged with murder. They

487
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 4: kept him overnight, they didn't give him an attorney, he

488
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 4: didn't get to go to court, and then they did

489
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 4: the whole thing the next day, hoping that they could

490
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 4: get a more reliable statement that wasn't so obviously fabricated

491
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 4: by coercion.

492
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine if they still had to worry about their

493
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: misconduct being videotape for a jury to see. And yet

494
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: somehow this still has room to get even worse.

495
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 4: While this two day interrogations going on, with this very aggressive,

496
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 4: psychologically coercive interrogator and Andy, who's got the mind of

497
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 4: a child, there are people watching the interrogation and we

498
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 4: only found this out after Andy was EXONDERI it was

499
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 4: one of the people watching. It was the person who

500
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 4: ultimately prosecuted him, that she was actually sitting there watching

501
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 4: this psychologically coercive interrogation take place and doing nothing about it.

502
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: What's her name again, Vicky Becker?

503
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: Vicky Becker, and she's now the elected prosecutor you know

504
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 4: Aboutkark County. Our hope is that we can end that

505
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 4: she was at the interrogaate. She was the person who

506
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 4: put on Detective Conway to testify a trial about the

507
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 4: interrogation actually elicited from him. Now, did you feed mister

508
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 4: roy or any information? Conway's like, Oh, No, wouldn't do

509
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 4: that because I knew he had a mental disability. Wouldn't

510
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 4: feed him a single fact. If she was there during

511
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 4: the interrogation, which she says she is, she would have

512
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 4: known what Conway now admits, which is that he fed

513
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: Andy all the information that actually aligned with the facts

514
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 4: of the case. Whatever those facts were, it came from

515
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 4: Conway's mouth. And in Detective Conway's own report, he admitted

516
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 4: that before he took Andy's confession that Andy was confused,

517
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 4: he was fatigued, and he's later admitted that he believed

518
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 4: that Andy was mentally broken before he ever took the statement.

519
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: And had this been videotaped, like Edgar Garrett's interrogation, had

520
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: the jury seen this, it would have impeached everything, all

521
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: the lies that Detective Conway had to say a trial.

522
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: And if the evidence in this case wasn't fraudulent enough,

523
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: that brings us to the only physical evidence, the fingerprint.

524
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: So in Phase one they sent the medicine bottle and

525
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: other physical evidence off to the Indiana State Police lab

526
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: and eventually they sent fingerprints of suspects aka standards for comparison.

527
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: But in Phase two, when Conway and Daggy got involved,

528
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: something telling happened with the Prince. Conway and Daggy's story

529
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: was that Andy and Lana first came on their radar

530
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: through Nina Porter's coerce statement in September two thousand and three.

531
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 4: In August of two thousand and three, though before Nina

532
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 4: and Lana were pulled over, the Alkhar Police Department removed

533
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 4: the physical evidence from the Indiana c Police Laboratory and

534
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 4: sent it to a deputy sheriff at the Elkhart County

535
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 4: Sheriff's Department named Denis Chapman for him to compare the

536
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 4: Leyden print to Andy Warrior's standard. Not only Andy, but

537
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 4: but Lana can as well. They were literally targeting Lana

538
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 4: and Andy before they manufactured that false evidence during the

539
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 4: first week of September. Chapman, come to find out, never

540
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 4: trained to do leaking different comparisons at all. And Dennis

541
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: Chapman writes like a two page report that says that

542
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: he matches the print from the medicine bottle to the

543
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 4: left peaky finger of Lana Canna. Come to find out,

544
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: it ended up not being a peaky figer at all.

545
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 4: It was like the index finger to somebody. He excluded

546
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 4: a home healthcare worker. So like he got the finger wrong,

547
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 4: the person wrong, and then he somehow excluded the right person,

548
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 4: which all of that shows it was just like a

549
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 4: total fabrication. Like this guy was not doing a legitimate comparison.

550
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: He was just doing whatever the conway An EPD wanted

551
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 4: him to do.

552
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: You might as well have my dog look at it.

553
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 4: I mean, it would be just the same, right, because

554
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: like Chapman is a total fraud anyways.

555
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: Right, And that's even unfair to my dog because Freddy

556
00:29:59,160 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: would never do something.

557
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like we see him as like Elkhart's hired gun.

558
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 4: You know, this untrained, unqualified deputy sheriff that when the

559
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 4: elk Car Prosecutor's Office or the el Car Police Department

560
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: was concerned that the Indy NFC Police Laboratory wouldn't give

561
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 4: them the findings that they want, they would remove it

562
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 4: and send it to this illegitimate proxy who would then

563
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 4: fabricated opinion for them for whoever their suspect was.

564
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: I shuddered to think. But how many other cases has

565
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: Chapman been involved in?

566
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 4: So we are digging into Chapman now. He had been

567
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: used by the elkar Police Department to do Leyton print

568
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 4: comparisons dating back to the nineteen nineties. So we actually

569
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: have another wrongful conviction case from Elkhart. That's a murder

570
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 4: from like two thousand that Vicky Becker was the prosecutor

571
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 4: on and Lo and Behold.

572
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 3: The week before trial.

573
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 4: In that case, Dennis Chapman was brought in to exclude

574
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,239
Speaker 4: all the alternati suspects from the print left on what

575
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 4: they alleged was a murder weapon.

576
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: Wow, this is a Fandora's box of evil.

577
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 4: And he only stopped giving them opinions in twenty eleven

578
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: ish when Lana Kingan's post conviction petition unraveled the fact

579
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: that his opinion was false all along.

580
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: So almost twenty years worth of cases, this guy Chapman,

581
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: who has no formal training to do fingerprint analysis, would

582
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: just come in and testify as an expert. You've got

583
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: a real problem in Elkhart and Andy was just another

584
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: one of their countless victims. So they had this in

585
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: and I'm putting this in quotation marks fingerprint match Nina

586
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: Porter saying that Lana confessed to her and implicated you Andy,

587
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: And then they had Andy's false confession. Andy, you had

588
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: been in jail for two years now, and they came

589
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: to see you with your defense attorney to see if

590
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: they could get you to testify and repeat your false confession.

591
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: But this time he wouldn't do it. How did that

592
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: all play out?

593
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: They just kept asking me questions again and making sure

594
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: everything was okay, And I was like, no, I didn't

595
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: have nothing to do with the murder.

596
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: Of course they knew that already. So now it's August

597
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: two thousand and five and you walk into court. What

598
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: was that like? Uh?

599
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: I felt like a stiff board walking down the aisle

600
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: and going into sit down in the courtroom. And Vicky

601
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: Becker was, well, we got this and we got that.

602
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: And they never asked me or my attorney never did

603
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: anything at the time.

604
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you had a defense attorney who had just heard

605
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: you vehemently recant your false confession. Yet he made no

606
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: effort to suppress that statement. And from what I understand,

607
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: when he was given a list of false confession experts

608
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: like doctor Richard Leo doctor offshe that he called exactly

609
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: zero of the names on that list up to testify.

610
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: And Elliott. We've seen plenty of cases with multiple Code defendants,

611
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: but this one really is problematic and it's hard to

612
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: believe this was allowed to go forward as one trial.

613
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: Can you explain what I'm talking.

614
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 4: About, Because like ol In el Card Indiana, when you

615
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: have a situation where you have two code defendants, one

616
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 4: of them falsely confesses and implicates his other Code defendant,

617
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 4: and then Nina Porter attributes a confession to Alanna Keenan

618
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: that the state then tries to use against Andy. So

619
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 4: it's constitutionally problematic because Lana can't force Andy on the

620
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: stand like he has a right to not testify. Andy

621
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: can't put Lana on a stand to say that she

622
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 4: never made these statements to Nina Porter, and the states

623
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 4: like using all of this evidence to convict both of

624
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 4: them at the same time, Like the trial should have

625
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 4: been severed. You know, the trial was about two days

626
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 4: excluding jury selection, and you know the state just like

627
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 4: completely ran over the defense. So you had the lead

628
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: in print fabrication introduce a trial. Conway goes up there,

629
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: introduces Andy's two recorded statements, which total and length are

630
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 4: roughly just over an hour combined. So like, you know,

631
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 4: you basically have like eight to nine hours of unrecorded

632
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 4: interrogation where and Andy, who had the mind of a child,

633
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 4: is psychologically coerced into giving a false confession, fed all

634
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 4: the facts. Conway testified the trial in response to questioning

635
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 4: by miss Becker, never fed him any information, you know,

636
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: never coerced him anyway, won't do that, you know, knew

637
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 4: that he had a disability. All of that a lie.

638
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 4: And then Nina Porter went up there on the stand

639
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 4: and testified that Lana gave this confession to her to

640
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 4: doing the murder, you know, thanksgiving, thanks for giving death,

641
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: and that she had complete control over Andy to the

642
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 4: extent that if Lana said Andy, go stand in the rain,

643
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 4: that he would go do it. And the state and

644
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 4: closing arguments were like, the print corroborates the confession, the

645
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 4: confession corroborates, need a porter, need a porter corroborates both

646
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 4: of it. Look at everything together, You've got your puzzle

647
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 4: conduct these people and the jury did what the prosecutors wanted, And.

648
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: Did they present anything in your defense at all?

649
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: No, I felt it was all one silence.

650
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 4: No witnesses, no defense witnesses, no, and not even like

651
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 4: no defense witnesses. But like the police officers went up

652
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 4: there and testify to the jury that they never had

653
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 4: any alternate suspects, and we know that's a lie, Like

654
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 4: Larry would Tony Thomas, people were straight up committing perjury

655
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 4: left and right.

656
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: So, Andy, when you saw this circus unfolding in front

657
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: of you, did you still hold out any hope that

658
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: the jury would come back in and get it right.

659
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: Yes?

660
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: I was hoping, yes, but as we know, with all

661
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 1: the lying and fabricated evidence, it was probably well hard

662
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: to somewhere near impossible for them to see the truth.

663
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: So can you tell us about that awful moment when

664
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: they did get it so wrong?

665
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: I felt nothingness. I was just numb. It took me

666
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: back to the jail cell and I just walked in

667
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: like I not seeing a ghost, but I was a ghost.

668
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: I got to know people right off the hand, and

669
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: I found me a job, so I kept busy most

670
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: of the time, working in a wood factory making skids,

671
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: and that people would from the outside had come and

672
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: pick up the skids, and we got paid for it.

673
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: We got like fifty cents an hour, and if we

674
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: got so many skids done, we got five or it

675
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: was either five cents or a penny for each kid

676
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: that got done.

677
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: So a lot of people don't know a very important

678
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: and insidious thing about the thirteenth Amendment, which is that

679
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: it did end slavery, but they left a loophole in there.

680
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: And the loophole is that it doesn't apply to people

681
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: who aren't free. So that meant that if they put

682
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: people behind bars like they did to you, Andy, they

683
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: can enslave you. It can pay. In some states they

684
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: pay four cents an hour and charge attacks on top

685
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: of that. Other states it's nineteen cents an hour. And

686
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: tons of products everyday, products that many of us use

687
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: license plates, instance, are made in these prisons. Big corporations

688
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: use this slave labor. It's a huge problem, and it

689
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: creates a perverse and reverse insteadive for people to lock

690
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: up other people because there's money in it. So here

691
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: you have a system in Elkhart where it appears they

692
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: deliberately wrongfully convicted Andy and countless others at a rate

693
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: that's at least get this eight times higher per capita

694
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: than a place like New York, which has a long

695
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,959
Speaker 1: and ordered history of lawful convictions, and the same prosecutor

696
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: that is still in office today made Andy and so

697
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: many others essentially into slaves.

698
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: Yes, I worked in the kitchen too, and they pay

699
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 2: fifty cents an hour.

700
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: So were you able to make any friends while you

701
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: were in there? Oh?

702
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of friends, played board games. I was in

703
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: the Ounder doorm. People that didn't get in trouble. If

704
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: you got one lettle ride up here get kicked out.

705
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: And I was there for two years and never got

706
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 2: a ride up. And you could go outside and walk

707
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: around to play basketball. And I caught a ride up

708
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: once before I got in an honor dorm. I fell

709
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: asleep and went to the chow hall. Then I went

710
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 2: back and went to chowhaw again, and they had a

711
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 2: scanner and I got a I accidentally got two meals.

712
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: So this is probably like the worst thing you've ever done. Yes,

713
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: needless to say, you didn't belong there and desperately needed help,

714
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: And your first appellate lawyer did bring a compelling ineffective

715
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: assistance claim based on the fact that your trial lawyer

716
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: never tried to suppress the false confession of his disabled

717
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: client and never bothered to call a false confession expert

718
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: like doctor Leo or doctor Afshi. And the one thing

719
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: that sticks out in my mind here is that the

720
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: trial lawyer said in his own defense that this was

721
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: actual strategy. Okay, he said that in Elkhart, the jury

722
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: wasn't going to believe.

723
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 3: An expert from outside the community.

724
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: From outside the community, yeah, But what's ironic about this

725
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: logic here is that because Dennis Chapman's from within the community,

726
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: they'll believe him, right.

727
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: I mean, it was an outrageous explanation by the attorney,

728
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 4: But the judge overseeing that claim was this guy, Terry Schumaker.

729
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 4: He was the prosecutor on Egar Gerrit's case who we

730
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 4: found out exclude did Richard off She from testifying as

731
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 4: a false confession expert at that midnighteties trial, saying false

732
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 4: confession expert testimony should never be before a jury because

733
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: it invades the province of the jury. So when this

734
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 4: guy now who's on the on the bench, he's never like, hey,

735
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 4: mister Royer just wants you to know. As a prosecutor,

736
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 4: I took the position that these types of people should

737
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 4: never be allowed in a court room never disclosed. It

738
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 4: denied Andy's post conviction petition. He sat in prison for

739
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: like another decade. The judge should have recused himself. And

740
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 4: that's when I think, you know, we start talking about

741
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 4: systemic misconduct. I mean, frankly, when I said the words

742
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 4: that there were systemic police and prosecutor and mist conduct

743
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 4: that caused wrong quel convictions in Alcarda, Indiana, including Andy Royers,

744
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 4: the state filed emotion for an injunction against me. The

745
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 4: stakehourt judge found that like when I said systemic misconduct,

746
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 4: that that was defamatory. You know what's amusing now is

747
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 4: that that judge Formal Cark Kenny prosecutor, she withheld from

748
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 4: us that she was also married to a former corrupt

749
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 4: Olkar cop in the nineties. Right, Like this is like

750
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 4: when you talk about systemic, it's like you're going before

751
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 4: judges who are former prosecutors married to Alcar police officers.

752
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 4: Like that is the system in Elkhart that is like

753
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 4: allowed for people like Andy to get wrongfully convicted in

754
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 4: like open view. The whole system is stacked.

755
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: You don't have a.

756
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: Chance, and that's how you end up with five going

757
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: on seventeen exonerations and counting in a town of fifty thousand. So, Andy,

758
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: how did you end up getting in touch with Elliott?

759
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: Oh, to one of my lawyers, Michael Sutherland, you put

760
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 2: a newspaper article out saying how wrongfully I was done,

761
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: and Elliott happened to see it and took up the

762
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: case from there.

763
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

764
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 4: So it's funny, you know, this goes back to the

765
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 4: systemic Elkhart misconduct. By the time that I found out

766
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 4: about Andy's keys, we had another client who was exonerated

767
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 4: by then, by the name of Keith Cooper.

768
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: Who we'd like to cover in the very near future

769
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: if you'll both join us.

770
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

771
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 4: And so Keith had been wrongfully convicted. You know, he

772
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 4: was framed for a crime he did commit too, and

773
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 4: the Indie Star started like a wrongful Conviction series. I

774
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 4: want to say, in like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, Keith

775
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 4: them was still trying to get a part in an

776
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 4: actual innocence pardon from the governor, and as part of

777
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 4: that series they did a story ultimately on Andy. I

778
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 4: want to say, this was like twenty seventeen.

779
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: So, okay, you saw the article you and Sutherland got

780
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: in touch what happened next.

781
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 4: You know, I was like desperate to get my hands

782
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 4: on the material.

783
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 3: My wife and I were going on.

784
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 4: A vacation to Mexico and I had just gotten like

785
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 4: the trial transcripts, and I just remember that whole vacation,

786
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 4: like being on the beach under an umbrella, read through

787
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 4: the whole trial, was like reading through the police reports

788
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 4: and was just like, oh my god, this guy got

789
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 4: so framed.

790
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 3: You know. So by this.

791
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 4: Time, we had a project going at Notre Dame Law

792
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 4: School in Andy's case was the first one that we

793
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 4: ever worked on, and so we had a number of

794
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 4: like great students on the case and incredible investigator named Patty,

795
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 4: and we went out and like knocked on a ton

796
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 4: of doors.

797
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: So I'm going to imagine that Nina Porter got a visit.

798
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Nina Port was actually the first witness that we

799
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 4: talked to. You know, by then, you know, to put

800
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 4: this in context, By the time we talked to Nina Porter,

801
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 4: Lana Keenan, his co defend it was exonerated and sought

802
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 4: civil compensation. Andy's like still sitting there, you know, even

803
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 4: though the attorney who had this before us, he filed

804
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 4: e motion for leave to even file a post conviction

805
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 4: petition in the appellate court denied like they weren't letting

806
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 4: Andy Royer even get back to court. I mean, it

807
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 4: was like fundamentally outrageous. So Lana, she got an incredible

808
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 4: post conviction lawyer, Karen Winnicky who dug into the Layte

809
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 4: Prince stuff, you know, like Dennis Chapman total fraud. Kara

810
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 4: Winnikey is the one who unraveled that fraud. They ended

811
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 4: up getting a lane print expert excluded Lana Keenan found

812
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 4: all these differences that couldn't be explained away. That science

813
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 4: is very subjective. What's fascinating is they filed post conviction petition.

814
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 4: State challenges it. At some point, the state sends the

815
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 4: print materials off to the DNST Police Lab. Any usctate

816
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 4: police cops.

817
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 3: Like this excludes her.

818
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 4: They still go to an evidentiary hearing. Even though the

819
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,720
Speaker 4: state lab says not a lot of Caenans, the private

820
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 4: person says not a lone of Keenans. Right around the

821
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: time of the evidentiary hearing, Chapman gets a chance to

822
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 4: look at it and sees the print and immediately starts

823
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 4: admitting that he got it wrong. That was after he

824
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 4: already saw you know what the private expert was saying,

825
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 4: so he knew that other people were saying that he

826
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 4: was wrong. By then they go to the adventure hearing,

827
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 4: the state does an aggressive cross examination of Chapman, like

828
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 4: it was self preservation mode. You know, Vicky Becker still

829
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 4: prosecutor in the office. You put him on the stand trial.

830
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 4: It was a different deputy prosecutor doing the cross but

831
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 4: it was like saving his boss, right, Like make this

832
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: guy look like he's a fraud, that he duped all

833
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 4: all of us and that none of us knew about

834
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 4: it all along.

835
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: To save face for the system as a whole, exactly.

836
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 4: So then eventually before ruling is made, the state agrees

837
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 4: to a new trial for Lana and the case gets dismissed.

838
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: Now one would think this should have an effect on

839
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: her co defend and Andy.

840
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 4: It's so crazy they use that evidence at Andy's trial

841
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 4: and still they were like, you know what, We've got

842
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 4: this disabled guy. We're just going to leave him in prison.

843
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 4: He hasn't had the rights representation, he hasn't had the

844
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 4: funds for private representation. We're going to leave him there.

845
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 4: We're going to see if they're able to unravel everything

846
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 4: else that happened.

847
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: All right, So back to Nina Porter.

848
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 4: One of our law students, me and our investigator, we

849
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 4: knocked on Nina Porter's door. She was like, I've been

850
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 4: waiting fifteen years for somebody to ask me how this

851
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 4: whole thing came about. And she told us, in painful detail,

852
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 4: how she was coerced into lying against Andy and Lana

853
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 4: for crimeate in commitment.

854
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: So Nina Order recanted. The print is toast, which brings

855
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: us to the false confession. So did you reach out

856
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: to any of the false confession experts at Andy's trial

857
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: attorney should have called in the first place.

858
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 4: Well, we called doctor Leo. He began digging through the material.

859
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 4: But what really changed things? In addition to our investigation,

860
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 4: you know, so like patting the students knocked on doors,

861
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 4: got a ton of affidavits, people implicating Larry Wood, people

862
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 4: implicating Tony Thomas. We also had a former outcar police officer,

863
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 4: Larry Towns. He actually called Mark Daggie and was recording

864
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 4: the entire conversation and Larry was chatting him up about

865
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 4: this case. And Daggy admitted there that the interrogation. He

866
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 4: witnessed it. He said he believed that it was actually

867
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 4: video recorded, and that the interrogation was super leading and

868
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 4: among the worst he had ever seen. He had no

869
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 4: idea that a recorder was on. You know, this was

870
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 4: like two police officers talking to each other, and so

871
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 4: he made these admissions. Towns also called another person who

872
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: was involved in the investigation watched the interrogations, person Peggy's,

873
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 4: and she admitted that she always believed Andy was innocent.

874
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 4: She was the one who signed the charging documents, who

875
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 4: sought the warrant for Andy's arrest for the murder, and

876
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 4: was admitting in this call, I always thought that guy

877
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 4: was innocent. So they didn't think that Larry would ever

878
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 4: tell They surely didn't think that this other police officer

879
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 4: would ever record them, but he did because he was

880
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 4: so fundamentally outraged.

881
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so we not only have an expert poking huge

882
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: holes in the false confession, but also two people who

883
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 1: were in the room who didn't think that anyone would

884
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: be breaking down their sacred blue wall of silence. But then,

885
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: on top of that, your involvement in Keith Cooper's case

886
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: had a direct effect on Andy as it turns.

887
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 4: Out, in Keith Cooper's wrong quol conviction lawsuit, we were

888
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 4: able to do depositions of Conway and Daggy, and that's

889
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 4: where things finally unraveled, because those depositions uncovered the truth

890
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 4: about what happened the interrogation room. Conway finally admitted defeating

891
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 4: Andy information, admitted that he believed that he was psychologically

892
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 4: broken down, admitted that he was informed prior to the

893
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 4: interrogation that Andy was mentally disabled and had the mind

894
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 4: of a child, and then testified under oath that he

895
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 4: disregarded all of that, gave no accommodations to his disability.

896
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 4: Like this is all like in a deposition. You know,

897
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 4: this guy was making all these admissions that were like

898
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 4: completely contrary to what he testified to a trial.

899
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: Elliott I got a hand it to you, man, what

900
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: you were able to do here. This is not normal.

901
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: I mean, this is nothing short of and I'm not

902
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: like a magical thinker, but this shit is just miraculous.

903
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: The things you've been able to uncover are shocking.

904
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 4: And what was also shocking that we found out through

905
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 4: the depositions was that Conway was removed from the homicide

906
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 4: unit of the Ulkhar Police Department before Andy's two thousand

907
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 4: and five trial, from his conduct in another interrogation in

908
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 4: a different homicide case was removed. So we got to

909
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: the bottom of it and ultimately had his supervisor testify

910
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 4: for us at the entry hearing that he removed Conway

911
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 4: because he believed that he lied in order to interrogate

912
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 4: another person without their council present, and that his lie

913
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 4: in that case, the supervisor belief could jeopardize the integrity

914
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 4: of any further criminal investigations that he worked on and

915
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: would cause credibility issues a trial, so they removed him

916
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 4: from the homicide unit. This all happened before Andy's trial.

917
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 4: Conway was like the most important witness at Andy trial

918
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 4: because only Conway could either admit or deny what happened

919
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 4: the interrogation room before a recorder was turned on. And

920
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 4: yet the state withheld the fact that this guy was

921
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 4: removed from homicide due to issues with his credibility and integrity.

922
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: Conway also further admitted defeating Andy all the information and

923
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: then Vicki Becker watched it all happen and put Conway

924
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: on the stand to lie anyway, and Chapman had already

925
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: been exposed as a frauded a lot of post conviction.

926
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 4: By the way, Dennis Chapman, we ultimately got his personnel file.

927
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 4: What Dennis Chapman admitted. After Keenan got exonerated, Chapman had

928
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 4: to sit down with the sheriff and explain how he

929
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 4: botched that print so badly. And in that interview he

930
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 4: said that he was pressured by el Car police officers

931
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 4: to form an opinion. That they told him the theory

932
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 4: of the case, that Lana Kanaan was the brains, that

933
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 4: Andy Warrior was the brawn. That Andy couldn't do this

934
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 4: on his own, so they fed him who they wanted

935
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 4: him to id, and then pressured him into making that

936
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 4: fabricated ID.

937
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: You also had those recordings of Daggie and that supervised

938
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: Daggie repeated what he had said on the recording on

939
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: the stand as well.

940
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 4: I mean, like the state's case imploded. And Nina Porter

941
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 4: testified for us too. She told the court how she

942
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 4: was coerced into repeating a fabricad statement. And by the way,

943
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 4: while Andy was like wrongfully convicted, you know, within like

944
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 4: forty eight hours of that, Daggy and another officer went

945
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 4: and gave her the two thousand dollars reward that was

946
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 4: never disclosed, you know, like nobody ever knew that she

947
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 4: was pressured into lying and that like, oh as soon

948
00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 4: as she got the stand, she was going to be

949
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 4: given thousands of dollars.

950
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: So there they are using the carrot and the stick.

951
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: So how did it all end up with Andy being

952
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: here with us today? When was this this long overdue.

953
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 4: Hearing September into October twenty nineteen? And the fascinating part

954
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 4: about it is that we agree to only litigate like

955
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 4: really like a fourth of what it was in our petition. Yeah,

956
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: we were like Judge, you know, like let's just do

957
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 4: five or six issues, like because if we went on

958
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 4: those issues, we don't need to get to the other

959
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: twenty Wow.

960
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: So you really were ready to embarrass the state further

961
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: than you even needed to in order to convince the

962
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: court that a new trial was in order, and the

963
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: court agreed with you. So Andy, what was it like

964
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: watching this shit show from your perspective?

965
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: Like there was a superman on my side, and uh,

966
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 2: I just couldn't believe the lawyers before Elliott didn't do anything,

967
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? It just they just here,

968
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: you go give it to the prosecutor.

969
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, so safe to say that Elliott is a good guy. Book.

970
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: Yes, he's a cool guy. He's got the records straight now,

971
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: so he's all right around. Great guy.

972
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 3: Thanks Andy, thank you.

973
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: So you've just watched Superman come in and kick some

974
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: serious ass, right right, But this being outid, they're not

975
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: going to just start doing the right thing now.

976
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 4: We got this case kicked out at Khark County. That's

977
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 4: why I need to get justice, right. So, like we

978
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 4: got that judge to recuse herself. She actually found that it

979
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 4: was defamatory when I said that Andy was wrongfully convicted.

980
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 4: Like it wasn't just like systemic misconduct. It was like

981
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 4: this judge is like the most unfair judge that we

982
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 4: could ever be before.

983
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: And how this judge is oblivious to the system she's

984
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: been overseeing is ridiculous.

985
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 4: But okay, Yeah, so Andy's case outside of Alkhark Counyon,

986
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 4: we litigated in Coskiosco County before this super kind, really smart,

987
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 4: fair judge. The whole proceeding was like very very fair

988
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 4: to both sides, and we felt like we had a

989
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 4: real chance given the case that we put on and

990
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 4: we submitted proposed find After the hearing, the state did

991
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 4: as well, and we waited and when that phone call happened,

992
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 4: They're like, hey, Elliott, how far away are you? Because

993
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 4: Andy's ready to get picked up. The judge granted a

994
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 4: new trial in March thirty first, and I was like

995
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,760
Speaker 4: in a meeting with other students on a different Elkhart

996
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 4: wrongful conviction case, like we were in a zoom meeting

997
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 4: because everything was through zoom then, and I was like,

998
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 4: oh my god, guys, Oh my god, Andy just got

999
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 4: a new trial. He's getting released. I gotta go, And

1000
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 4: I ran upstairs put on a suit. I was like

1001
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 4: calling Andy's parents, Janie and Mike, and you know, obviously

1002
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 4: one of the most incredible phone calls that I'll ever have,

1003
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 4: and like Andy's coming home, Like we've all got to

1004
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 4: figure this out. Somebody go by mask, you know, Like

1005
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,399
Speaker 4: my wife was like like seven months pregnant at the time.

1006
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 3: Like I wasn't leaving the house at all.

1007
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: Right, So this was the beginning of the pandemic. No

1008
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: one knew how bad this was going to be yet,

1009
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:54,439
Speaker 1: but you forged ahead.

1010
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 4: No hesitation, drove so fast. I called the students you know,

1011
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 4: we all sort of like, I agreed to meet at

1012
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 4: the jail to welcome Andy home.

1013
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 2: So finally when I got to teskiaskau Joe, I said,

1014
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: you're being released. I was like, wow. I started shaking,

1015
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: color started coming back to my face, and I started

1016
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 2: feeling like a person again. It was just unbelievable. It

1017
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: was there's no words to put it out there.

1018
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: So wow, yeah, I can only imagine. And this judge

1019
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: didn't have to do what he did, which was to

1020
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: release you on a ricognos response, It seems because he

1021
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: was so convinced of Andy's innocence that he didn't want

1022
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: to see Andy back in prison even for another day

1023
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: waiting for a new trial while the state and COVID

1024
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: dragged this thing out. So Andy was released. The state

1025
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: appealed the ruling for a new trial, and the appellate

1026
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: court affirmed the ruling, stating, and this is a quote,

1027
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: Detective Conway withheld the truth when he attempted to bolster

1028
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: the reliability of Royer's confessions by saying Royer knew details

1029
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: about the murder which were not known to the public. Again,

1030
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: just like Chapman. Now it was Conway's turn to be

1031
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: under the.

1032
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 4: Bus, and the appellate court ruled Detective Conway that his

1033
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 4: continued employment at the Elkre Police Department was galling and

1034
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,760
Speaker 4: found that he committed perjury back at Andy I. Llana's

1035
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 4: two thousand and five trial. And after that happened, we

1036
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 4: put pressure on the city of Elcar and the Elkhar

1037
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 4: Chief of Police. You know, we were calling for Conway's

1038
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 4: termination and the chief, who has a ton of integrity.

1039
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 4: Finally they have a chief of police there who wants

1040
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 4: to change things and is trying to change things wrote

1041
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 4: up a ten page notice of termination of Detective Conway

1042
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 4: about the egregious misconduct that he committed in this case.

1043
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 1: Well we'll see if he's actually ever criminally pursued like

1044
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: one of us mere mortals would be, but at least

1045
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: he can't do any more damage. So the new trial

1046
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: ruling was upheld on appeal.

1047
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 4: Than what happened after the appellate court decision, we filed

1048
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 4: the motion suppress. That was like the first time that

1049
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 4: anybody had ever filed the motion in express for Andy

1050
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 4: saying that is confession, what's false, involuntary and unconstitutional and

1051
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 4: it should be not admitted at the trial, and the

1052
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 4: state's response was to not respond and dismiss the case.

1053
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: Right because they knew. They always knew. So Andy's name

1054
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: was finally cleared on July nineteen, twenty twenty one. Conway

1055
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: and Chapman are disgraced. Vicky Becker still needs her come

1056
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: up and and it appears that she's currently running unopposed

1057
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: in November twenty twenty two. Now I'm not sure if

1058
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: it's too late to change that, but we hope for

1059
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: so much worse for her and Andy. Is there anything

1060
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: that you'd like to call on our audience to do

1061
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: or to support, anything that you'd like to see happen.

1062
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 2: I just hope that they've done wrong so they should

1063
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: pay for it.

1064
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely agree, and I hope that comes to pass.

1065
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 1: So now we go to closing arguments, where first of all,

1066
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: I thank you both from the bottom of my heart

1067
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: for being here and sharing your incredible story. I know

1068
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: it must be difficult to drudge up all of these emotions,

1069
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: so thank you for being brave and doing just that.

1070
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 1: And now I'm going to shut my microphone off, leave

1071
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: my headphones on, kick back in my chair, and just

1072
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: listen to any final thoughts you guys have Elliott please

1073
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: kick it off for us and Andy, you take us home.

1074
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 4: You know, I think Andy's case shows the need for

1075
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 4: why interrogation should be video recorded. You know, from beginning

1076
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 4: to end, Andy was like among the most vulnerable in

1077
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 4: our community and was manipulated and coerced into confessing to

1078
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 4: something that wasn't true. And it's heartbreaking, and it was

1079
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 4: completely preventable the state. You know, the prosecutor was watching

1080
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 4: the interrogation, other officers were watching the interrogation. They could

1081
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 4: have stopped it at any point. You know, they didn't

1082
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 4: have to charge him, they knew it wasn't reliable, and instead,

1083
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 4: you know, it's pretty clear what happened. They just wanted

1084
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 4: to close a case, and they sadly did that through

1085
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 4: framing an innocent really really innocent, not only like in

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00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 4: this case, but like Andy's just like an innocent human being.

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00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 4: And the students and Notre Dame and our team worked

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00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 4: so so hard to show the injustice and to bring

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00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 4: Andy home, and in Andy's name, we hope to do

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Speaker 4: that for so many other innocent people from Elkhart.

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Speaker 2: I just want to thank everybody that worked on my

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00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: case and law students and.

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00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: The people that.

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00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 2: Believed in me, my mom and my stepdad and family,

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00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 2: and they brought me through a lot. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: how to get through it, but I did.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd

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00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn,

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00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,479
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

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00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

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00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

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00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and

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00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

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00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow

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00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcast

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Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one