1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric, and I'm very excited to 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: tell you that the new season of Next Question is 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: on its way. But to tide you over, I have 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: the hottest ticket in town, and that's an interview with 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: the one and only Michael Lewis. You know him, you 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: love him. You've heard of all of his books, like 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: The blind Side, Moneyball, The Big Short. Well, now he's 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: got a new one out and his timing, can I say, 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: could not be better. It's called Going Infinite, The Rise 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: and Fall of a New Tycoon. Here is our conversation. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: I had so much fun talking to Michael Lewis. Now 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: I understand crypto a little bit better, and I hope 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: you all have as much fun listening to our conversation. 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Here it is hellos. Oh no, you're good. You're good. 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: You can relax. So should we go? You guys? Are 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: we ready? Okay? All right? Wow? Michael Lewis, how many 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: books have you written? 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: By the way, I don't know. 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: I looked it up and it kept going and going 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: and going and going. 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: It's just I don't know, and they've a distinction needs 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 2: to be made. There's a list there in the front 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: of the in front of this book. Some of them 24 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,199 Speaker 2: are books and some of them are a book like objects. 25 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: They I mean, so it's one thing to sit down 26 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: like this and plot creates structure old book. It's another 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: to write four magazine articles and put them together in 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: a book. And so Boomerang or the Fifth Risk or 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: the Money Culture, those are all I mean, don't I'll 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: defend them. But they were booklike objects. 31 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: All right, I have sixteen I counted. 32 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: On the sixteen things. 33 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Yes, six No, well sixteen. I think most of these 34 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:46,279 Speaker 1: were books. 35 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, sixteen items, and I bet six of them were 36 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: book like objects. 37 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,639 Speaker 1: Really, yes, Well, talk about the stars aligning. Your book 38 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: is coming out at the same time, Sam Bankman Freed 39 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: is on trial. I mean, did you all plan this? 40 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: Was this serendipitous? How did this happen? 41 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: We kind of planned it. I started writing this thing 42 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: at the end of January, and I know it usually 43 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: takes me six months once I've got all my stuff, 44 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: and so I knew when i'd have it finished. So 45 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: they knew when they arranged then it was coming on 46 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: the fall, and they announced the trial date, and it 47 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 2: seemed made sense. Oddly, the trial was supposed to start Monday, 48 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: but the judge has some personal reason he wanted to 49 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: start at Tuesday, so we actually start. The book was 50 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: launched on the day of the trial, so as part 51 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: of me kills me that I'm not there, because I've 52 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: seen the list of the prosecutors' witnesses who were there 53 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: likely to call, and it maps very closely on the 54 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: characters in the book. So it'd be like watching, you know, 55 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: characters from a novel come to life or something like that. 56 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: It feels like that. 57 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,839 Speaker 1: We're going to get into the intricacies a little bit 58 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: simplified of the trial and the crimes, et cetera. But 59 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the beginning, Michael, because 60 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: you're almost a little anthropologist. I find your book so 61 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: interesting because I think, in fairness, I saw this on 62 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: sixty minutes. But you take a character and that character 63 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: becomes emblematic of another big issue. And you met with 64 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: this young man more than one hundred times over two years. 65 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: So if you had to use one word to describe 66 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: what your experience, what your time was like with SBF 67 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: as he's called, what word would that be? 68 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: I'm excuse a strange one satiric in that right from 69 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: the beginning, He struck me as walking social satire. He 70 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: had acquired. He'd gone from zero to having twenty two 71 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: billion dollars in about eighteen months, and all of society 72 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: had reorganized itself around this pile of money. And everywhere 73 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: he goes what is either happening to him or his 74 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: observations because he's a bit, he's a Martian, he comes 75 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: from another planet, and he sees the world in just 76 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: a different way. It felt like social satire, so satiric. Well, 77 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna sound very odd given these circumstances. 78 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: It was funny. I mean it was a funny. It 79 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: was a funny funny and sad. You know, funny and 80 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: sad go together. But there was a lot of funny 81 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: and so satiric, that's. 82 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: The thing, and surreal and something that almost sounds like 83 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: the pages of a Tom Wolfe novel. 84 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: Honestly. 85 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: So, I just watched a documentary about Tom Wolf. You're 86 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: heavily featured. I loved it. By the way, it was 87 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: based on your profile of Tom Wolf in Vanity Fair. 88 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: And you know, as I read about Sam, I thought, whoa, 89 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing Tom Wolf, the kind 90 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: of person Tom Wolf would have been all over. Do 91 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: you agree? 92 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: I agree, especially early Wolf. You know, he wrote these 93 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: pieces that were fabulous about Silicon Valley people right before 94 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: before the Internet. Right it was like the semiconductor people. 95 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: It was like, these people are of the moment and 96 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 2: they're changing the culture in some way. Also, the Mary 97 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: pranks that crowd, I mean, this is a version of 98 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: the Mary Pranksters. I mean these people who are rolling 99 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: through the world just creating disruption wherever they go. He 100 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: would have been drawn to Sambangman Freed. So yes, I 101 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: think that's completely true. 102 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: Do you think that SBF represents capitalism at its worst? 103 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 2: In a way, it represents capitalism and it's most chaotic, 104 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: And there's a reason for them. He was drawn to 105 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: chaos when he figured out that he excelled relative to 106 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: other people in these semi chaotic environments where his math 107 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: he brain still was useful, but he needed it to 108 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: be really messy at the same time. It couldn't be orderly, 109 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: couldn't be structured, couldn't be perfectly predictable. When he figure 110 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: that out, figure that out on Wall Street when he's 111 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: twenty one years old, he then proceeds to create those 112 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: environments in which he'll succeed. 113 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: So he thrives in chaos. 114 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: He for thrives in mess and chaos, and he knows 115 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: that everybody else doesn't so at some level, and so 116 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: he feels most comfortable when that it's the environment. He's 117 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: also capitalism at its most current. I mean, if you 118 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: think about history, just put him in some sort of 119 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: historical context, you think, oh, this is just how it 120 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: is now. Mark Zuckerberg is a bit like this. He 121 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: came out of nowhere and it had billions of dollars instantly. 122 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: But that doesn't really happen in history. Like most people 123 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 2: who got this rich, they had to like dig oil 124 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: out of grounds, right, build railroads, build stuff, build companies. 125 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: This instant acquisition of a fortune is so peculiarly of now. 126 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: And what's so among the things that are so odd 127 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: about it is that the person who in possession of 128 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: the fortune is a stranger to the world, like nobody 129 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: knows who they are. He goes from being nobody and 130 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: he has no social relations kind of thing to being 131 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: at the center of some universe instantly before anybody has 132 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: a chance to figure out should he be. You know. 133 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,239 Speaker 2: So that's a curious feature of modern capitalism. I think. 134 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: So you meet this guy, you guys, take a walk, 135 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: you take a hike in California. Tell me what was 136 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: your first impression. 137 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: First impression was there's a kind of artlessness about him, 138 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: and an openness and a willingness to answer. Talk about 139 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: things that normally people just wouldn't be easy talking about, 140 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: like how much money he had, where to come from, 141 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: how crazy it was he had it that his parents 142 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: didn't know what to make of it, because they were 143 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: two professors at Stanford, and he was raised not caring 144 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: about money, and so first impression was very He was 145 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: also very peculiar that he was disheveled when he came out. 146 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: He look, he always looks like he just fell out 147 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: of a dumpster, right. 148 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean he's got he looks like an unmade bed. 149 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes, yeah, an unimated bed on top 150 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: of an unmade bed. He looks. And it was the 151 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: total absence of interest in his own appearance, the total 152 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: in his head noss. So normally, when you meet somebody, 153 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: it's an exchange, right, they asked questions about you, you 154 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: ask questions about them. 155 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: Let me get yes, he asked you no questions. 156 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,119 Speaker 2: Zero, and we are, I'm going to tell you something. 157 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: Two years later, he's still not asked me any questions. 158 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: So as far as anyone knows nothing about me and 159 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: knows nothing about what I was writing about, but he 160 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: never asked me like, what's the book gonna look like? Nothing? 161 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: So it was all one way. 162 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because he's this odd combination. And we'll 163 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: talk about this in a moment too. And I want 164 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: to get too ahead of myself, an incredible desire to 165 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: do good without any emotional intelligence. Yeah, that's true, like 166 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: this strange combination. Yes, Well, let's talk about his childhood. 167 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, his parents were two Stanford law professors 168 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: who I guess are having their own legal problems right now, right, 169 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: I mean, they've been sued for their involvement in this 170 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: whole enterprise. But tell us about where he grew up, 171 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: what his life was like, and I'm curious about the 172 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: nurture nature aspect of him. Help us understand him. 173 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: His parents both tax law professor is Stanford. That sounds boring, well, 174 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: unless unless that's your cup of tea, right, Yeah, And 175 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: the kind of person for whom that's like a cup 176 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: of tea is a different kind of person. They like 177 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: to live in their head, and tax law does get 178 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: to kind of like structure of society, questions like how 179 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: you distribute wealth, And it's not just it isn't just 180 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: like wooden numbers. And it wasn't just it isn't just numbers, 181 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 2: it's ideas. They there are two people who live for ideas. 182 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: To all the tax lawyers out there, I deeply apologize. 183 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: Do I need to too? 184 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean, no, you're you're defending them insane. It's ideas. 185 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: But they've sat in the middle of actually pretty active, 186 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: interesting social circle. They were very social people. Their dinner 187 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: parties on Sunday nights were famous on the Stanford campus. 188 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: Their son struck even their friends as peculiar right from 189 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: the beginning, and one comment that stuck with me is 190 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: one of the distinguished guests that the Sunday night dinner 191 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: party said he always thought that the parents were afraid 192 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: for and of Sam like they did, and that they 193 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 2: were worried about where he was going to end up 194 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: in the world because he didn't make social connections. He 195 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: was so isolated as a kid, and the feeling of 196 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: his childhood to me talking to him and to those 197 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 2: around him was that he was just waiting for it 198 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 2: to end, that he was waiting for everybody else to 199 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 2: grow up around him so that he would have people 200 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: to talk to, because he did not ever connect to peers. 201 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: He had one friend, and the one friend was a 202 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: child of his parents' friends, so they were kind of 203 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 2: put together that way, and they were connected through this 204 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: game they played called Magic the Gathering, which is a 205 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: complicated chao. It's a messy chaos but matthew card game, 206 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: and they didn't really have to talk about much because 207 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: they just played cards together the whole time. So it's 208 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: an unusual childhood. I mean, I asked. 209 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound necessarily unhappy, just different. 210 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 2: You know that kept coming back to this. It sounds sad, 211 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: but he's not sad. It sounds almost tragic. He didn't 212 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: feel tragic. He felt like he was living in his 213 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 2: own head and trying to make sense of the world 214 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: around him in his own peculiar way. So verbally facile 215 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: and so interested in the world around him that and. 216 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: Yet never asked you a question that doesn't really job. 217 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it doesn't jibe, but he's interested in ideas. 218 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Michael Lewis. Right after this, 219 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: we're back with author Michael Lewis. Let's talk about his 220 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: sort of rais on detra. So he had a dream 221 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: and that was to make a shitload of money and 222 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: give it away. Something that's called effective altruism, which actually 223 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of before. I mean, I know the 224 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: idea of it, you know, but that term. 225 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the movie is fascinating. 226 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: And well tell me, tell me about the movement and 227 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: how he got sucked into it. 228 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: Right, So there's a whole intellectual prehistory we don't need 229 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 2: to get into. The modern version of it. Is Oxford 230 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: professors two thousand and eight ihs or so start to 231 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: make an argument that very little cost to yourself, you 232 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: middle class English person, could give away money so effectively 233 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: that you know, what might cost you a cup of 234 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: coffee saves a life in Africa. So how can you 235 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: possibly buy that cup of coffee for yourself if you 236 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: could save a life in Africa with that same money. 237 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: And they actually start to make the calculations on their 238 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: own salaries, like if we take everything but what we 239 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: absolutely need to live on, what over our lifetimes, what 240 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: could we accomplish? And it was like we save eighty 241 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: thousand African children from blindness. Then some numbers like that, 242 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: and they start to kind of put these ideas out 243 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: to young people actually, kind of almost like you build 244 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: a religion or a cult. 245 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: When does this whole movement start. 246 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: About two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. But 247 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: by twenty twelve, when one of these philosophers names Will 248 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: mcgahe gives a talk that Sam here is at MIT. 249 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: It's in Cambridge at Harvard, but he was at MIT mcgaskell. 250 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: It is morphed a little bit. The movement morphs like 251 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 2: a few times, but this big morph was the idea was, 252 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: all right, you kid, you could go become a doctor 253 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: and go to Africa and in your lifetime you would 254 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: save two hundred people's lives. Or you could go work 255 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 2: at a high frequency trading from a Wall street and 256 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: make lots of money and pay fifty doctors to go 257 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: to Africa and save fifty times the number of lives. 258 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: So it thought he has earned a give and that's 259 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 2: the idea that animates Sam. It's like up to that point, 260 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: money's not on his radar screen. It's not like I 261 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: don't really care about it, doesn't think about it. He's 262 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: a kid of two professors at Safford who probably think 263 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: he's going to become a professor. Now where the movement 264 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: gets really a little out there is right after he 265 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: gets into it, it morphs again and they start to 266 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: argue about like the math of saving lives, and yeah, 267 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: you could give your dollars to save that kid's life 268 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: in Africa, but those same dollars could be given to 269 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: reduce certain existential risks to humanity. A pandemic that wipes 270 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: out the species, AI, out of control, climate change, risk 271 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: of nuclear war, and if you can do anything to 272 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: tilt the odds against all future human beings being wiped out, 273 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: the math suggests you should do that rather than safe living, 274 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: breathing ones. 275 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: Now, so it swings to prevention. 276 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: To prevention, that's for to prevention of a thing that's 277 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: going to be very hard to know whether you succeed 278 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: it or not, you know, because what you're trying to 279 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: do is stop something from happening. Right, So, all of 280 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: a sudden, there's a reason not to make just a 281 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: few million that this is like unlimited sums of money. 282 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: Infinite money is what we need. And that's the climate 283 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: in which Sam comes of age and develops his own 284 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: life ambition. 285 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: So he wants more and more and more and more 286 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: for good? 287 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: Is that more and more and more and more. Not 288 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: just more and more and more and more, but the 289 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: the twenty billionth dollar or the trillionth dollar is as 290 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: valuable as the nine hundred and ninety nine billionth dollar. 291 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: That it's just like there's no diminishing returns. 292 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: So that captures his attention, gives him purpose, and he 293 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: settles on two causes, pandemic prevention, which you mentioned, and 294 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: then protecting democracies. 295 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: So that's controversial, right. He has these effective altrus. It 296 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: is a movement. There are thousands of people involved in it. 297 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: It has certain cult like qualities, but it's also kind 298 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: of like an ant culpe because they're all into argument 299 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: and reason. So the movement can change, like someone makes 300 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: a better argument and it goes a different direction, and 301 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: Sam makes a new argument that actually irritates all the 302 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: effective altrus. It's that in addition to climate change, AI, pandemics, asteroids, whatever, 303 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: Donald Trump should be on that list right. 304 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: Well, Basically his argument is that you need government. Government 305 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: is essential, and this is of course arguable and debatable, 306 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: but government is essential to solve some of the most 307 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: intractable societal problems. So we have to protect government, we 308 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: have to proctocracy, and that means basically neutralizing Donald Trump 309 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: at any cost. 310 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right, right, Yes, Yes, it's sort of 311 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: like if American democracy fails, democracy is going to fail, 312 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: and democracy is the best tool for addressing these problems. 313 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: And so Donald Trump has his name has been added 314 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: to this list of existential risk to humanity, and he. 315 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: In fact offers fifty billion dollars to five Yeah, fifty 316 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: billion would be pretty hard to resist, wouldn't it. But 317 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: five billion dollars to Donald Trump to not run for 318 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: president of the United States, which apparently gets some traction. 319 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: Who did he meet with people high up in his circle? 320 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: Sam? 321 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: So? 322 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: The way Sam's best I can tell political operation worked 323 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: is it essentially had two almost identical parts, one Republican, 324 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: one Democrat. He hired a bunch of Republicans in one 325 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: silo and a bunch of Democrats in the other, and 326 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: funded them both. And in the Republican silo, I do 327 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: know that the people there met with people very close 328 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: to Trump. 329 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: That I do know that happened So how did Sam 330 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: Bankman Freed make so much money? Everyone thinks he's going 331 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: to be the world's first trillionaire. Let's break down what 332 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: he was doing for the bitcoin challenged, I among them, 333 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: which I now understand more having read your book and 334 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: read a lot of articles about this. But think of 335 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: this as cryptocurrency for dummies. What is exactly is cryptocurrency. 336 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: It's made up money. It's a so it is an 337 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: idea that is hatched by someone. We don't know who 338 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: he is, but his pseudonym was Satoshi Nakamoto in two 339 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 2: thousand and eight. And the idea is a means of exchange, 340 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: a form of payment of a store of value that 341 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 2: is not sourced by the government, doesn't come out of 342 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: the government. It's us like this thing. We're going to 343 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 2: get a digital digital currency. It's a string of digits, 344 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: and we're going to say this is valuable, and it's 345 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: valuable if people believe it's valuable. And when it starts, 346 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 2: it seems preposterous, like why would anybody want a bitcoin? 347 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: It turns out it's not preposterous. Why would people want 348 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: a bitcoin? That ends up being an answer to the 349 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: question people who were kind of suspicious of governments, of institutions, 350 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: of banks, people who want to hold wealth in ways 351 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: that are hard to detect, people who want to make 352 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 2: payments without anybody knowing what they've done. That Bitcoin catches 353 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: on with a kind of a smallish group of people 354 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: who have got a religious fervor about it, and it's 355 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: mostly kind of libertarian types. When bitcoin starts to go 356 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: up in price the first place, there's only one digital currency, 357 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: it's just bitcoin. 358 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: In the end, they're now thousands of them, right, And 359 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: he starts as an investor and then figures out there's, 360 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's got to be a way to build 361 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: a better mouse trap. So he creates a platform called 362 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: ftx right. 363 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: With that you can think of that as the cryptocurrency casino, right, 364 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: And just to sort of ease your anxiety about all this, 365 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: he didn't know about cryptocurrency care about it. I mean, 366 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: there's a technology underneath it that would take a long 367 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: time to explain. And every time I think I understand it, 368 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: I come back and I think I actually didn't understand 369 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: that as well as I should. He didn't care about 370 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: any of that. It was just a thing that went 371 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 2: up and down like tulip bulbs in price and then 372 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: he could buy and sell. That's how he gets in, 373 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: and he never really has to understand a whole lot more. 374 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: But what he does see when he gets in is 375 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: that the exchanges like the New York Stock Exchange, but 376 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: there are versions of the New York Stock Exchange for 377 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: cryptocurrencies where you can go and buy and sell cryptocurrencies, 378 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 2: and those exchanges, a lot of them were kind of flawed. 379 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: They they were risky to trade on. Sometimes they lost 380 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: everybody's money. And he realized that if you created a 381 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: better exchange, you could own the casino. And if you 382 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: own the casino, the way you get paid is every 383 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: time someone comes and makes a bet, you take a 384 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: little piece of it. You get a fee for every 385 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: bet that gets made. And so ultimately they're two hundred 386 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: and fifty billion dollars a month being traded on his 387 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: exchange FTX, and he takes out a tiny percentage, but 388 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: it ends up being a lot of money, so much 389 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: money that in twenty twenty one, he's they have a 390 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: billion dollars in revenues, four hun a million dollars in profits, 391 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: and venture capitalists are investing in him at a rate 392 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 2: that suggests the company's worth forty billion dollars. And this 393 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: happens in a matter of eighteen months from the time 394 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: he creates it in early twenty nineteen. 395 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: But he had two companies. So he establishes FTX, but 396 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: the first company he built was called Alameda Alimeter Research, 397 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: Alameda Research, and that's where the trouble began. 398 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: So he starts this his own little trading firm, Alameda. 399 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: Then he starts out of that this exchange and Alameda 400 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: is just one of the traders on the exchange. The 401 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: problem was when he started FTX, he couldn't get bank 402 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: accounts like dollar bank accounts for FTX. So if you, Katie, 403 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: wanted to put your money on FTX to start to 404 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 2: buy cryptocurrencies, there was no account at FTX you could 405 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: wire your dollars to or bring your dollars to. They 406 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: would hold the doll that could then be turned into cryptocurrency. 407 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 2: I mean you physically couldn't turn up right. You can 408 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: go from in Hong Kong. You got to wire some 409 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 2: money into account and the money is government money. It's 410 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 2: euros or dollars or it's yen. It starts that way. 411 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: And so people wanted to wire their money onto FTX. 412 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: FTIX didn't have any bank accounts because banks didn't want 413 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: to bank crypto exchanges, but they would bank Sam's original 414 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: trading business. And so in the beginning, you would wire 415 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: your money to Alameda in order to get it to FTX, 416 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: And I mean that was already bulky, Like that's weird, 417 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: and it's amazing that people did eight point eight billion 418 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: dollars turn up that way and nobody asked any questions. 419 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: And I've seen them, like the statements says you think 420 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 2: you're wiring at f TX, but it actually says Alameda 421 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: on it or some other Alameda subsidiary. But what should 422 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 2: have happened is once FTX got bank accounts or once 423 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 2: it got turned into crypto, that it be held in 424 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: either crypto wallets or in FTX bank accounts and be 425 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: completely separate From's trading fund. And it never was. So 426 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: that's that's not the only way the customer's money ended 427 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: up in Alameda, but it's the main way. And one 428 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: can speculate about how and why it didn't ever get 429 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: moved over like that that chunk of money. You know, 430 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: I have my theories, but they're unfounded and Sam's story 431 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: is that by the time they got a bank accounts 432 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 2: for FTX, the kind of pool of money that had 433 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: piled up inside of Alameda was such a small fraction 434 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: of what was in Alameda, eight out of one hundred, 435 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: So you know that it was just sort of like 436 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: he wasn't even thinking about it. That's his story. The 437 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: other thing is Sam is different, and so he's capable 438 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: of thinking things that I wouldn't think. And he was 439 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: capable of a radical sloppiness with money that I just 440 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: wouldn't be capable of. But if it were me and 441 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: I was thinking I have sinister intent or I just 442 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: don't care about my customer, I would think, well, they'll 443 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: never know. And it's a free loan, because that's how 444 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: it functioned, right, It's like the customer's money is in 445 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: the private hedge fund and no one's paying interest on it. 446 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: It's a free loan. And that's how it looks to 447 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: most people. 448 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: When it all falls apart, how much money just vanished 449 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: into thin air. 450 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: This is a great question. When the customers all come 451 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: from their money. 452 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: At once, there's a run on the plan. 453 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: There's a run on the on Sam's world, it's there's 454 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: about fifteen billion dollars that should have been there. When 455 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: they stop paying people back, there's about ten billion dollars 456 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: that's still missing. So five billion dollars got paid back, 457 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 2: and then so there's customers are out ten What we 458 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: now know is it was actually so the bankruptcy people 459 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: have announced these numbers. There's now eight point six billion 460 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 2: dollars of customers deposits, like customers are waiting to get 461 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: their eight point six billion dollars back. But against that, 462 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 2: the bankruptcy people have already found seven point three billion 463 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 2: dollars in liquid assets. So the whole right there is 464 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: one point three billion that looks like this went poof. However, 465 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: in addition, in Sam's world, there were all these investments 466 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: made that are not liquid assets. They are investments in 467 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: weird companies, startup companies, and at least one of those 468 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: investments is clearly worth more than a billion dollars one 469 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: out of a pile of three hundred. It's an investment 470 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: in an artificial intelligence company called Anthropic. So it is 471 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: conceivable that nothing went poof. It's conceivable that the customers 472 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: will all get one hundred cents on the dollar bag, 473 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 2: and that what they will have suffered was the inconvenience 474 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: of waiting for it. And it may be years, maybe 475 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 2: two or three years. 476 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: I'm going to say conceivable, but likely. 477 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: I mean, so it seems possibly, very possible, very possible 478 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 2: that people will all get their money bag, which would 479 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: be very Sam Bankman freed. It's sort of like this 480 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: huge mess, this huge drama, this huge like you know, 481 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 2: social convulsion, and in the end it's a shaggy dog story. 482 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: While he could spend the rest of his life in 483 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: Christy good, right, I mean, whether people get their money 484 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: back or not, right, Michael, So what is what the 485 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: charges is he facing? 486 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: This is what I've been told by a former prosecutor 487 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 2: who who now is a defense attorney, but she worked 488 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: in this office. Is prosecuting him that I'm told oddly 489 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: that there are no federal statutes about theft. You can't 490 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 2: just charge him with stealing people's money. The laws that 491 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: do exist are by using the federal mails, using the 492 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: internet to facilitate a theft. So he's charged with wire fraud, 493 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: with money laundering, with bank fraud. He's not charged with theft, 494 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: which is what really is the problem is here. So 495 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: they are complicated charges. There's seven of them. I think 496 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 2: they tried to throw in some more but they were 497 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 2: not able to do it. And when you add up 498 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: all the charges and the kind of sentences that attach 499 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: to those charges, he facing one hundred and twenty years 500 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 2: in jail. But then so first the jury will decide 501 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: convictor or quit. If they e quit, he's off. But 502 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 2: if he convict, the judge decides the sentence, and the 503 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: judge can do anything from just let him go, I 504 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: mean like a day of house arrest or something to 505 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty years in jail. And I suspect 506 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: this judge who has become so irritated with Sam he 507 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 2: can't even look at him. Sam, you know, under house 508 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: arrest has not been the best behaved defendant, that the 509 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: sentence was going to be heavy. So I don't know. 510 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: I think he's very likely going to go to jail. 511 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: It's possible, you never know what a jury's going to 512 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: do that he won't, but he's very likely to go 513 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 2: to jail. And what happens to him then, I don't know. 514 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 2: He's I really I said this on sixty Minutes and 515 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: it was a joke kind of, But think. 516 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I heard you said he'd be happier in 517 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: prison with the Internet than in a beautiful with penthouse 518 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: with no WiFi without exactly. 519 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 2: And he apparently saw the Sixty Minutes Show in jail, 520 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 2: and he apparently told as lure as that's true. 521 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: You know, he was surrounded by a lot of it people. 522 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: Nothing says I want to be your friend like someone 523 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: with a lot of money, right. I mean, you talked 524 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: about Anna Wintour doing a zoom. He got Tom Brady 525 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: to you know, to promote FTX, Steph Curry, Shaquille O'Neill, 526 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: Larry David got paid ten million dollars to do that 527 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: Super Bowl commercial. They spent what twenty five million dollars 528 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: on that commercial? Line yead, Yeah, it was, it was 529 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, it was a funny ad. Anything Larry 530 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: David does is funny to me. But do they have 531 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: any culpability? You know, they're they're promoting this unregulated platform, 532 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: They're they're vouching in essence for this kid and what 533 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: he's created, and a lot of people admire them and 534 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: listen to them and then invested in crypto. I mean, 535 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, what do you think I don't think 536 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: they will, but I wonder if they should. 537 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: Everybody was so all in on Sam bankmanfree it would 538 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: have been unusual for someone and not take the money. 539 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 2: And it wasn't just that's when you need Warren Buffett, right, Yes, 540 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: that's right, And it wasn't. This is going to sound odd. 541 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: It wasn't just the money. I mean, many of these 542 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 2: people could get their money from a lot of different places. 543 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: It's a bit more money than they might have gotten 544 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: from other places. But they really liked him. They really 545 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: liked him. 546 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: Now can you understand that? Yes, after spending all that 547 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: time with him. 548 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 2: Because he's so different from anything anyone they knew, and 549 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 2: he didn't behave the way people behave around celebrity. 550 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: It's such a one way relationship. Like do you think 551 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: he ever asked Tom Brady a question? 552 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: No, people wanted to hear what he had to say. 553 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: He was the new thing. He was a new thing. 554 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: And it wasn't that this money was falling off him. 555 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: That was part of it, but it wasn't just that, 556 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 2: And it was like. 557 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: It was also that he understood this world that nobody 558 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: else did in a way. 559 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: That's true, that he was explaining crypto. But take what 560 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 2: the other thing was. He is a response if you 561 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: look at the rise of Sam Beckmerfried and what are 562 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: the ingredients The decline line of institutional authority in the world, 563 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: the decline of government's ability to do anything about anything. 564 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: People are so sick of it, like why can't we 565 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: address climate change? Why can't these problems be? And people 566 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: are defaulting to looking to people. And he seemed actually 567 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: sincere in his desire to fix these problems, and people 568 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: wanted him to exist. People wanted there to be a Sam. 569 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: And you saw that it was palpable. It was not 570 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: just greed. It was more than that. It was complicated. 571 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: When we come back, I'm going to finish things up 572 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: by talking with Michael about a personal tragedy is family experienced. 573 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: That's right after this, we're back with more of my 574 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: conversation with Michael Lewis. We only have five minutes. Can 575 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: I ask you just some general questions about your career, Michael. 576 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: One of your former subjects Billy Bean, of course from Moneyball. 577 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: He once said, you have a horsesh This is a 578 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: funny quote, A horseshoe in your underwear when it comes 579 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 1: to finding a good story. I mean, you do seem 580 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: to really be able to. 581 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Katie, that's not a horseshoe. 582 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: Okay, how do you find these good stories? Michael? 583 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: I just wonder. It's not that there's no science to it. 584 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: I just wonder. I mean, Sam mcmurfree collides with me, right. 585 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: But here's what helps, not thinking you know what the 586 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: story is, not prejudging, not trying to impose order too 587 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: early on what you're saying. Just feeling like this is 588 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: interesting and I want more. 589 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: Of it and I want to see what happens, and 590 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: having the luxury, to be honest with you, to spend 591 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: two years. 592 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: But then there's a risk. I mean I got to 593 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: November of last year and I wasn't sure I had 594 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: a book. I was having arguments with friends about whether this. 595 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: They were arguing with me, like you should do it, 596 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: and I I'm not sure. I don't know where it's going. 597 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 2: And that has happened to me that I get stuck 598 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: in something for a while and it doesn't yield anything. 599 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: But I've marinated it for a year and where did 600 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: that year go? But that is it's just sort of like, 601 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: if I'm interested, genuinely interested, not trying to like force 602 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: some idea upon the world, and I let that interest 603 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: just flow over me. It eventually leads somewhere good. And 604 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 2: what's going on is if I'm interested, really interested, the 605 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: reader will be interested. And if I'm not interested, the 606 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: reader is going to be bored. 607 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: But I think also you're able to marry personality with 608 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: complicated topics with sort of social impact, and you're able 609 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: to weave them all together in a way that's understandable 610 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: and entertaining, and I think that's your gift. Michael. Meanwhile, 611 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: congratulations for selling Going Infinite for five million clams to Apple. 612 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: Do you believe the numbers you read in the newspaper? 613 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: Is that not true? 614 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 2: Well, it's never you know, they have to make the movie. 615 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: There's incentives as that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's. 616 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: Still it's a nice chunk of change. Michael. 617 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: Uh. Yeah, I hope it makes my horseshoe look even bigger. 618 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: I love talking to You're such a fun interview and 619 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: you're heading out, but I just want to say one 620 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: thing before you leave. I just want you to know 621 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: that you and Tabitha and your family have been in 622 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: my thoughts so much since you lost your daughter Dixie 623 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: and her boyfriend in a car accident. I read that, Michael, 624 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: and I was honestly it was from afar crushing. 625 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 2: I know that you know what pain is. 626 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: I do, but losing a child I think is indescribable 627 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: and unparalleled pain. And you know, I know Tabitha a 628 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: little bit from when she was on NBC and always 629 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: really liked her. And I'm just so sorry for your loss, 630 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you are moving forward because you know, 631 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: I always think we're all terminal, like we just have 632 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: to make the most of the time we have. And 633 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: I just I just wanted you to know that you 634 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: and your family, your two other kids, Quinn and Walker, right, yep, 635 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: I've just been holding you all in my heart. 636 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: Thank you. She sticks us alive in me. She's with me, 637 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 2: So she's in this book in a funny way. So yeah, 638 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: thank you. 639 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: By the way, everybody, if you just can't get enough 640 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman Freed, Michael is going to be doing 641 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: a podcast called Judging Sam, chronicling the trial with the 642 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: different guest every week, so check it out. Thanks for 643 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a 644 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: subject you want us to cover, or you want to 645 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world 646 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six 647 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: oh nine five one two by five oh five, or 648 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would 649 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production 650 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers are Me, 651 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. 652 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: Our producers are Adrianna Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio 653 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed our theme music. 654 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up 655 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description 656 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecouric dot com. 657 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram and all my 658 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 659 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 660 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: favorite shows.