Speaker 1: In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams is an
Speaker 1: Iheartwomen's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of In Case You Missed It
Speaker 1: with Christina Williams. We have an action packed episode for
Speaker 1: you today. As you all know, the WNBA training camps
Speaker 1: tipped off around the league this past weekend. So here
Speaker 1: it'll break down all the headlines. We'll have Associated Press
Speaker 1: writer Doug Feinberg join us, and then later we're in
Speaker 1: for a special conversation with Shattering the Glass authors Susan
Speaker 1: Shackleford and Pamela Grundy. So let's get into the latest
Speaker 1: headlines with Doug Finberg. Doug, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Hey, Christina, how are you doing today.
Speaker 1: I'm doing good and I'm super excited to have you
Speaker 1: here because I feel like you're like an encyclopedia of
Speaker 1: all things with basketball. You've been working at AP since
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, and you've been covering the WU since
Speaker 1: the early two thousands. Lots of experience throughout all of
Speaker 1: the decades in your journey of covering women's sports. What's
Speaker 1: been the most satisfying thing about your journey and being
Speaker 1: a part of the media ecosystem.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. I think it's something actually recent
Speaker 3: with just the growth of women's basketball and women's sports
Speaker 3: in general.
Speaker 2: I mean, you've seen.
Speaker 3: An explosion the last couple of years in college and
Speaker 3: the pros with just attention on the game. That's very
Speaker 3: well deserved for the players, for the coaches. People are
Speaker 3: paying attention.
Speaker 2: That to me is a.
Speaker 3: Long time media writer and soul who loves the game
Speaker 3: to see it explode last couple of years that I
Speaker 3: couldn't ask for more.
Speaker 1: And I just want to first congratulate you on making
Speaker 1: the US Basketball Writers Associations Hall of Fame, because you
Speaker 1: are the goat to be and you know, when I
Speaker 1: first came on the scene, I feel like you were
Speaker 1: one of the nicest people in terms of just welcoming
Speaker 1: in the new media into the space. And so we
Speaker 1: talked to about your journey and just what you think
Speaker 1: has changed and what's been the most satisfying thing about
Speaker 1: your journey. But how did you get moved to the
Speaker 1: WB what attracted you to want to cover women's basketball?
Speaker 2: Well, first off, thank you very much.
Speaker 3: I mean it's humbling to be honored by anybody for anything,
Speaker 3: and to be in a Hall of fame. For me,
Speaker 3: it's like I feel like I'm the third quarter of
Speaker 3: my career, so to speak, so I still have some
Speaker 3: time in front of me. I have a whole other quarter,
Speaker 3: maybe over time.
Speaker 2: If the game goes the right way.
Speaker 3: But to me, what's really special, and I appreciate what
Speaker 3: you said about welcoming people. That's to me important that
Speaker 3: this is a space to grow and to welcome people
Speaker 3: like yourself. And you've done a tremendous job over the
Speaker 3: last couple of years helping grow the league and doing
Speaker 3: a great job growing your own brand. I think that's important.
Speaker 3: I mean, the sport has spaced for everybody, and it's
Speaker 3: been something that I've enjoyed sharing with people and sort
Speaker 3: of helping this sport grow, and that to me has
Speaker 3: been very special for so many years and something that
Speaker 3: I hope to see continue blossom. I guess it's like
Speaker 3: a flower or a tree that's grown over the last
Speaker 3: couple of years. It still has a lot of growth
Speaker 3: left in it, and it's finally seeing the fruits of
Speaker 3: the labor of those that came before me. Even to
Speaker 3: watch it grow. To answer your question, as far as
Speaker 3: how I got into this besides being sports right, I've
Speaker 3: actually coached girls basketball in high school for the last
Speaker 3: thirty years as well, so I always had attraction to
Speaker 3: women's basketball, girls basketball, seeing sort of the undertold stories
Speaker 3: get told, and I sit in my boss in like
Speaker 3: two thousand and six, Hey, you know, I like women's basketball.
Speaker 2: I coach high school.
Speaker 3: I'd love to sort of jump on the bandwagon, so
Speaker 3: to speak, back then and cover it for the Associated Press.
Speaker 3: There's an opening and she's like, sure, go right ahead.
Speaker 3: So that was like two thousand and six, and now
Speaker 3: we're about twenty years later and still doing it.
Speaker 1: Well. I appreciate all the work that you do in
Speaker 1: the community and in our media space, and I want
Speaker 1: to dive right into this week's headlines. WNBA training camp
Speaker 1: is underway, and we just completed the WNBA Draft not
Speaker 1: to long ago, and all of the new draftees are
Speaker 1: arriving at training camp. I don't know if you've seen
Speaker 1: Page Beckers on social media. Book she's already getting very
Speaker 1: familiar with Dallas barbecue, the hats, the boots. How ready
Speaker 1: do you think she is for.
Speaker 3: The w I think she's ready on and huff the court.
Speaker 3: I mean, she is just a walking bucket on the court.
Speaker 3: She her efficiency in college is through the through the roof.
Speaker 3: She makes her teammates better. She'll she'll fit right in Dallas.
Speaker 3: They obviously have a really good team with Rique and
Speaker 3: Mattie Segris and a few others that will be there
Speaker 3: to help her along the journey. But she's she's going
Speaker 3: to be I think, a really good pro for Dallas
Speaker 3: for the next couple of years and beyond Off the court.
Speaker 3: I mean, she's got a fun personality, cowgirl page, loves
Speaker 3: her food like it just She's a great fit for
Speaker 3: wherever she went, and I think she can help re
Speaker 3: energize that Dallas franchise, So she'll be great down there.
Speaker 2: There's no question that she's going to be one.
Speaker 3: Of the rising young stars to go with the Caitlin
Speaker 3: Clarks to Andrew Reese's cam and brings the last couple
Speaker 3: of years that I think is going to be lifting
Speaker 3: this the WNBA even further.
Speaker 1: Are there any other rookies that you are keeping your
Speaker 1: eyes on?
Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of a rookie success deals
Speaker 3: is where they are if there's opportunity, and obviously Washington
Speaker 3: and Connecticut are two franchises that are sort.
Speaker 2: Of in the rebuilding mode.
Speaker 3: So you have Sonya Citron, you have Kiki Erfn, you
Speaker 3: have Georgia R. Moray in Washington, you have Anissa Marrow
Speaker 3: in Connecticut. I think can have a nice year just
Speaker 3: because of opportunity. I mean, if you have a chance
Speaker 3: to play and get a lot of minutes, you could
Speaker 3: do a lot of good things. So those are two
Speaker 3: franchises and four players that I think are gonna have
Speaker 3: a nice year just because they'll have a chance to
Speaker 3: be on the court and grow and they'll be growing
Speaker 3: pants and not going to be successful. I think all
Speaker 3: the time we saw it last year with Caitlin Angel
Speaker 3: that there were times that early on they struggled because
Speaker 3: it's going from college with the pros playing against eighteen
Speaker 3: to twenty two year olds were displaying grown women. So
Speaker 3: I think it's gonna be a chance for them to
Speaker 3: have some success and some failures along the way to
Speaker 3: learn from.
Speaker 2: But those are probably the four just.
Speaker 3: Because of the opportunity theyre going to have playing in
Speaker 3: those two franchises.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, and you hear that say
Speaker 1: the same thing all the time. Like when you're in
Speaker 1: these training camps, attach yourself to a vet so that
Speaker 1: you know, you can get familiar and I probably hope
Speaker 1: your chances of making a roster spot Sunday training camp
Speaker 1: tipped off. And for the people listening who have never
Speaker 1: been to a training camp, can you just describe what
Speaker 1: it's like to be at a camp?
Speaker 3: Well, from our standpoint of the media, it feels like
Speaker 3: in probably the players to the first day at school,
Speaker 3: right you haven't seen people in a while. There's the joy,
Speaker 3: the excitement that you're there for the first day in
Speaker 3: a few months. For the Liberty where I was on Sunday,
Speaker 3: obviously they're coming off their first title ever, so there's
Speaker 3: still that sort.
Speaker 2: Of excitement from that.
Speaker 3: It's a fun experience. I mean just to be there
Speaker 3: and see they're going through drills and it seems like
Speaker 3: everyone's happy right now to talk to us. In the media, usually,
Speaker 3: you know, July August towards the middle of the year,
Speaker 3: the dog is the summer, they don't really want to
Speaker 3: talk to us as much as right now. The first day,
Speaker 3: like everyone's happy to see you, like the first day
Speaker 3: at school, and then you get sort of fall into
Speaker 3: the new routine and it gets a little bit more
Speaker 3: shall we say, not unfriendly, but just more business like.
Speaker 3: But it's like would you do this summer? What you
Speaker 3: or in this case, what'd you do this winter? Just
Speaker 3: to get you back to where you were when we
Speaker 3: last saw them, probably about five months ago.
Speaker 2: Although I will.
Speaker 3: Say Christy, what's nice now is I was talking to
Speaker 3: Stewie about this that with Unrivaled being in existence now
Speaker 3: it's sort of year round.
Speaker 2: You said you got to see.
Speaker 3: Them from January to March, so it wasn't they were
Speaker 3: just season ends. They disappear to go overseas, whatever they do.
Speaker 3: You actually get to see them and be part of
Speaker 3: their ecosystem for more than just the WBA season, which
Speaker 3: I think will again help women's basketball grow.
Speaker 1: Well. I agree. I feel like we didn't have off
Speaker 1: season as a media. We had the college season. You
Speaker 1: had unlibeled in January, athletes unlimited, and then it was
Speaker 1: right back to work with the draft and Final Four.
Speaker 1: And so I love that we get basketball three hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty five days of the year. But going back
Speaker 1: to the training camp absolutely to me as well as
Speaker 1: a media member, feels like the first day of school
Speaker 1: as you said, everyone's so happy to see you. I
Speaker 1: love that the New York Liberty are doing things different
Speaker 1: this season, and they're going to have a media appreciation
Speaker 1: thing for camp, one of the first it's w teams
Speaker 1: to have that, and it's basically where media will get
Speaker 1: to go through a basketball clinic. So that should be fun.
Speaker 1: But yeah, just establishing that relationship between the media and
Speaker 1: the players, I think, and then obviously we get to
Speaker 1: see you know, these teams kind of work their way
Speaker 1: out to going from an eighteen woman roster down to
Speaker 1: twelve or eleven. How competitive does it get for the
Speaker 1: roster spots because we know that cuts have to be
Speaker 1: made before May sixteen, So how competitive would you say
Speaker 1: you've seen camp?
Speaker 3: You know, it seems to get tougher and tougher every
Speaker 3: year for them to make those final cuts. And people
Speaker 3: say you should expand right away, should add more teams,
Speaker 3: get more players opportunities. It takes time to do that.
Speaker 3: We already have a new team in Golden State this year.
Speaker 3: We have two more next year with the Toronto Tempo
Speaker 3: and the Portland question Marks whatever their name is going
Speaker 3: to be, and then eventually another sixteenth team at some
Speaker 3: point and then who knows. Kathy said there might be
Speaker 3: more after that, so that will help maybe ease the
Speaker 3: roster crunch a little bit. I know you and I
Speaker 3: have talked in the past about would be great maybe
Speaker 3: add a couple roster spots or I mean G League's
Speaker 3: probably tough to do, but equivalent of a G League
Speaker 3: for for the NBA. But yeah, it'd be great to
Speaker 3: have a taxi squad or something to give these players
Speaker 3: a chance to sort of stick around and who maybe
Speaker 3: the thirteen, fourteenth, fifteenth best player in the camp who
Speaker 3: are really good basketball players but just don't have an
Speaker 3: opportunity because you only have twelve. I mean you look
Speaker 3: at the Liberty, I think might be ten those spots
Speaker 3: of already returning, so to speak, and you had Marine
Speaker 3: Johannes who's coming back obviously from France, who skipped last
Speaker 3: year for the Olympics.
Speaker 2: There aren't many opportunities.
Speaker 3: Yet there's a bunch of players in the camp that
Speaker 3: are really talented that unfortunately, by May sixteenth, will no
Speaker 3: longer be on that roster.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for the fans listening, I think I saw
Speaker 1: it on X earlier this week a fan was like,
Speaker 1: I don't understand why they can't be more roster spots.
Speaker 1: And I replied to that fan, Well, the current collective
Speaker 1: bargaining agreement really doesn't leave wiggle room to add more
Speaker 1: than twelve players. There's a hard salary cap. But hopefully
Speaker 1: during these negotiations, maybe that cap can be lifted or
Speaker 1: give more room where you can provide more roster spots
Speaker 1: for teams maybe go to thirteen fourteen players, and so
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe maybe. But if you do that, do
Speaker 1: you did increase the amount of minutes played? Because we
Speaker 1: already have forty four games this year, and if you
Speaker 1: add roster spots you can go from forty minutes to
Speaker 1: maybe forty four forty eight minutes.
Speaker 3: Well, there's two things there. I think in the past
Speaker 3: there was the equity issue. There are some franchises like
Speaker 3: the Liberty and Phoenix Mercury that had other backers at
Speaker 3: strong backers at the NBA owners or the equivalent that
Speaker 3: if you say, could keep a thirteen to fourteenth player,
Speaker 3: just have them around, be a practice player.
Speaker 2: If this one gets hurt, throw them in there.
Speaker 3: They can afford to do that, whereas an independent owner
Speaker 3: of Chicago Sky or Seattle Storm, and again they might.
Speaker 2: Be able to do it.
Speaker 3: I'm just as an independent owner as opposed to an
Speaker 3: NBA back to owner so to speak. Maybe they couldn't
Speaker 3: afford to do that as easily, so they want to
Speaker 3: keep it equable. Having solar cap allowing only twelve players
Speaker 3: maximum those we both know most players. Most teams only
Speaker 3: keep eleven players, so it wasn't even twelve. It's usually
Speaker 3: eleven for solar cap reasons. But as we've seen the growth,
Speaker 3: we've had much better owners coming in that with deeper
Speaker 3: pockets that want to invest in the league. Maybe they
Speaker 3: could do something more like that. Because it's the cost
Speaker 3: of keeping a players probably a couple hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 3: from housing and travel and food and all the other
Speaker 3: things health insurance. So maybe in the next as you said, CBA,
Speaker 3: they might try the way to keep more players involved
Speaker 3: in that, which would be great I think for everybody
Speaker 3: because it gives you I mean its.
Speaker 2: One gets hurt.
Speaker 3: You can okay, we have like the NBA does, just
Speaker 3: post someone up from the taxi squad, the two way
Speaker 3: players and fill it right away.
Speaker 2: They already know what's going on.
Speaker 3: They've been in camp, they've been practicing, they know what
Speaker 3: the system, so to speak, which I think is better
Speaker 3: for everybody.
Speaker 1: Well one hundred percent agree. All right, We're going to
Speaker 1: take another quick break and when we come back, we'll
Speaker 1: have more from this special conversation. All right, moving on
Speaker 1: to the next big headlines from this week. The WNBA
Speaker 1: recently announced their preseason schedule, and for the first time
Speaker 1: in w history, they'll have four nationally televised preseasons games.
Speaker 1: And if you guys were paying attention last year, there
Speaker 1: was that one Links Minnesota Link Chicago Sky game where
Speaker 1: a fan literally reported on her cell phone live stream
Speaker 1: hours of the preseason game and it got over two
Speaker 1: million views online. So the WNBA, they heard you guys,
Speaker 1: they listened, and they took action by making four nationally
Speaker 1: televised games available in the preseason, but also fourteen of
Speaker 1: the fifteen preseason games will be streamed on the w
Speaker 1: NBA app. What was your reaction to the news of
Speaker 1: having these games available on broadcasts?
Speaker 3: How great is it? I mean, you can watch any
Speaker 3: game you want now in the preseason and listen. Shout
Speaker 3: out to that x user social media member for doing
Speaker 3: that to show injur Reese's first preseason game against Minnesota
Speaker 3: and people want to see it. There's an attention and
Speaker 3: interest in women's basketball that over a million people or
Speaker 3: too million people want to actually watch a live stream
Speaker 3: amount of phone of a WNBA preseason game and the
Speaker 3: quality who is as good as you could get for
Speaker 3: where that fan was. So the fact that now you
Speaker 3: can watch the games, the college game on ESPN with
Speaker 3: Caitlin Clark going back to Iowa. On Sunday you have
Speaker 3: the Ion doubleheader with the injur Reese going back to
Speaker 3: LSU along with Haley Van Liz, the Dallas Trio going
Speaker 3: back or the Dallas duo excuse me, the Las Vegas
Speaker 3: duo plus the Rique from Dallas going to Nerdam going
Speaker 3: home to their college, Jewel and Jackie along with the week.
Speaker 3: How great is that you can see them going back
Speaker 3: to college and being able to watch it on national
Speaker 3: television and then also in the League Pass you can
Speaker 3: watch games. So the w listened to the fans there's
Speaker 3: an interest to watch these games in the preseason, and
Speaker 3: they listened and they did something about it.
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, obviously you've been in a game
Speaker 1: longer than Met Doug, but just making it easier to
Speaker 1: be a women's sports fan, I think you start there
Speaker 1: with growing a game, and I love this move by
Speaker 1: the WNBH just make it easier to access in the
Speaker 1: visibility of the game. But I also like the piece
Speaker 1: of going back to the colleges. When you talk about
Speaker 1: keeping that moment of going from the Final four from
Speaker 1: college and bridging that gap of coverage. Having the league
Speaker 1: go back to play a preseason game at the alma
Speaker 1: maters of some of these superstars in the league. I
Speaker 1: think it starts there with you know, carrying fans over
Speaker 1: into the w season, but also the Brazilian national team
Speaker 1: will play a couple games in the preseason as well,
Speaker 1: so globalizing the game. You also have that Canada game
Speaker 1: in August as well, and so I love what the
Speaker 1: WNBA is doing in terms of, you know, bridging the
Speaker 1: gap but also continuing to globalize the game and put
Speaker 1: it on the map.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're one hundred percent right, And shout out to
Speaker 3: the Las Vegas Aces for doing this last year with
Speaker 3: bringing Asian Wilson back to South Carolina where obvious there's
Speaker 3: a tremendous fan base there that loves her and their
Speaker 3: their game cocks, and that sort of started this and
Speaker 3: I think they say, Wow, people want to latch onto
Speaker 3: their players and their college and their pros. Now it
Speaker 3: used to be there was a disconnect. It used to
Speaker 3: be again as the dinosaur in this room, so to speak,
Speaker 3: that once players went to the pros, they sort of
Speaker 3: the colleges didn't care about them, the players didn't care
Speaker 3: about them, the fans didn't care about them.
Speaker 2: It's say, Okay, they've moved on.
Speaker 3: Their their alumni, and like, I don't I support that
Speaker 3: South Carolina, support Yukon, it support Tennessee. I don't really
Speaker 3: care what their WNBA team is. It's not really what
Speaker 3: I'm my interest in for not the diehard fans, but
Speaker 3: the other fans, the casual fans, so to speak.
Speaker 2: But by going back to college.
Speaker 3: To sell out arenas, you're going to have sort of
Speaker 3: that goodbye moment for those players to come back and see.
Speaker 3: I mean Sabrina and Escu mentioned the other day how
Speaker 3: she didn't get a good chance to say goodbye to
Speaker 3: her Oregon fans because her senior.
Speaker 2: Year was during COVID.
Speaker 3: They're supposed to host the first two rounds of the
Speaker 3: NCAA tournament. Obviously it was probably a one seed, but
Speaker 3: COVID hit Nciatorny canceled and she never got a chance
Speaker 3: to play that final game in Oregon, but she'll get.
Speaker 2: Now is delivered. You're playing the Tayota Antelopes there.
Speaker 3: To close out the preseason, and you're right. Bring in
Speaker 3: Brazil here, the Brazilian national team, Camilla Cardoza's team that
Speaker 3: she's played with a little bit. To play against the
Speaker 3: Chicago Sky is awesome. Then playing against Iowa Caitlin Clark.
Speaker 3: It just brings more fans in. And I wouldn't be
Speaker 3: shocked in the next five years if we have an
Speaker 3: exhibition game in Europe at some point, or maybe even
Speaker 3: regular season game like the NBA does now, to just
Speaker 3: bring in more fans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. And you see already colleges are
Speaker 1: doing out of South Carolina had that big game in Paris,
Speaker 1: and Ole Miss and UCLA also did the same thing
Speaker 1: this past season. So I'm looking forward to the women's
Speaker 1: game being more globalized. Obviously, you have WNBA stars who
Speaker 1: play overseas in the off season, and so they're probably
Speaker 1: familiar in certain countries and markets, but as a whole,
Speaker 1: to have this league be like, Okay, we're gonna take
Speaker 1: the stands and do some preseason games overseas to bring
Speaker 1: it there. I'm looking forward to that as well. Doug,
Speaker 1: we talked about the New York Liberty training camp and
Speaker 1: what it's been like. Obviously they're gonna be the hunted
Speaker 1: this season as the defending champions. Do you have a
Speaker 1: two part question? One do you like their off season
Speaker 1: moves and adding the Tasha Cloud to replace Courtney Vandersloop,
Speaker 1: bringing back to the Marine Johannes Rebecca Gartner as well.
Speaker 1: Obviously they lost KT to the Golden State Valkyries and
Speaker 1: the expansion Draft. I had to coach Sandy on last
Speaker 1: week and she sort of talked about that decision and
Speaker 1: bringing a point guard who can defend one through four,
Speaker 1: who can facilitate, and who can score, who's a shooter,
Speaker 1: Natasha Cloud. So what do you feel about the off
Speaker 1: season moves and the New York Liberties chances of running
Speaker 1: it back?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 3: I thought they actually were really really good booves and
Speaker 3: I'm sure Sandy was instrumental in trying to add pieces
Speaker 3: that will help them repeat, which we both know is
Speaker 3: not the easiest thing to do.
Speaker 2: I mean, the Aces dude, a.
Speaker 3: Couple of years ago, but before that, it was the
Speaker 3: La Sparks in the early two thousands that was the
Speaker 3: last team to do it. So it's not easy to
Speaker 3: win back to back championship flow and win one championship.
Speaker 3: I think what they do is they Natasha Cloud, you added,
Speaker 3: like many different facets to your team.
Speaker 2: You add a player on the.
Speaker 3: Court who is a facilitator on offense. She can score,
Speaker 3: she can pass, she can create for other people, and
Speaker 3: she is a tenacious defender. I mean she is one
Speaker 3: of the best defenders in WNBA history on the ball
Speaker 3: and just adds that piece to them with Benigelini Hamilton
Speaker 3: out for the foreseeable future when they injury recovering from that,
Speaker 3: so it gives them that another tough defender who can
Speaker 3: also create for other people take some of the ball
Speaker 3: handling pressure off of Sabrina, which I think will help them.
Speaker 3: But also the other part, Christia, you and I have
Speaker 3: been around this team.
Speaker 2: For a bit. They have really good leaders.
Speaker 3: I mean, Stewie, Sabrina, JJ, They're all John Caul Jones,
Speaker 3: They're all really good leaders, but they're all somewhat quiet.
Speaker 3: Whereas Natasha Cloud announces her presence with the first thirty
Speaker 3: seconds of her being there. She the other day the
Speaker 3: first practice, she was one of the ones that we're
Speaker 3: talking to Sabrini Escue and she's making faces behind her
Speaker 3: and like just like bringing energy to her in a
Speaker 3: loud voice that I don't say that Liberty had bad
Speaker 3: leaders that.
Speaker 2: I think they're very good leadership on the.
Speaker 3: Court, but just adds another different type of leadership I
Speaker 3: think will help them. And she's hungry too. I mean,
Speaker 3: she won the title in Washington in twenty nineteen, but
Speaker 3: she's a hungry veteran that wants to try to get
Speaker 3: another one. So that's a huge piece. Isy Harrison another
Speaker 3: great probably backup big helps them. I think have some
Speaker 3: depth of the post, which would be important. Bringing Marine
Speaker 3: back is the another obviously great shooter and playmaker. So
Speaker 3: I think the pieces that they add in Rebecca Gardner
Speaker 3: getting healthy will make this team again hungry and a
Speaker 3: little bit different than last year. But I think is
Speaker 3: probably still the favorite two win the WNBA title this year.
Speaker 1: No, I absolutely agree, and I like that perspective of
Speaker 1: you saying about the quiet leaders versus the tossing who's
Speaker 1: more out there? I absolutely agree, and I love the
Speaker 1: contrast and the different types of leaders on this New
Speaker 1: York Liberty team. I'm also excited to see the jump
Speaker 1: for a player like Leoni Feebitch, who was instrumental in
Speaker 1: that finals game against Minnesota Game five, and now our
Speaker 1: Solarly as well. So I'm excited to see what the
Speaker 1: Liberty do this season. All right, before I let you
Speaker 1: get out of here, we got to talk women's college basketball. Obviously,
Speaker 1: because you're part of the AP and you all make
Speaker 1: you know, the top twenty five lists. But there's been
Speaker 1: in the off season for college basketball massive chaos with
Speaker 1: the transfer portal, Lots of big moves being made. Ole
Speaker 1: Miss picked up some players, South Carolina picked up some
Speaker 1: top players. LSU. I know we are all looking where
Speaker 1: is my Ashplewally going? Which of these off season moves
Speaker 1: surprise you the most.
Speaker 3: There's fifteen hundred players in the transfer portal, So that
Speaker 3: just think about how mind violed in that number is.
Speaker 3: I think there's three hundred and fifty or three or
Speaker 3: sixty teams in college basketball, let's say twelve players per
Speaker 3: team or so, so that's roughly forty five hundred players.
Speaker 3: Maths may not be in my strong suit this morning,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of players. So let's say a
Speaker 3: third of the players playing college basketball or sitting in
Speaker 3: the transfer portal at some point, which is crazy.
Speaker 2: I mean again, when the dinosaur here.
Speaker 3: When I was a kid, you transferred if you were
Speaker 3: like the twelfth person I roster and you weren't getting
Speaker 3: playing time, and then you'd want to go somewhere else
Speaker 3: to try to get some time get on the court.
Speaker 3: Now you have stars like for Wiley transferring and other
Speaker 3: great players who go, hey, you know what, there's more
Speaker 3: money for me. You made somewhere else, let me go
Speaker 3: transfer there.
Speaker 2: So I think the biggest shock I.
Speaker 3: Mean, listen, let's be honest with probably Livia Miles in
Speaker 3: the sense that she went to TCU. She could have
Speaker 3: gone to the WNBA but decided to stay in college
Speaker 3: for another year and not stay at there to day,
Speaker 3: but transferred to TCU, who obviously has been transferred you
Speaker 3: the last couple of years. So if it's pet of
Speaker 3: the oldest news so to speak, with her being one
Speaker 3: of the first to announce her decision where she was going,
Speaker 3: but that to me is surprising. And listen, we like
Speaker 3: spice and drama for Wiley going to LSU against South Carolina.
Speaker 3: That's at leastmatical probably right. I mean that creates a
Speaker 3: little bit of more excitement, a little something extra for
Speaker 3: that game when they go back and play each other
Speaker 3: in the in the SEC regular season, maybe the NCC tournament,
Speaker 3: and wherever else they might meet. So surprise, Yeah, that's crazy,
Speaker 3: Tanai Laton.
Speaker 2: We were talking about South Carolina.
Speaker 3: The leading scorer in the country transfers from Florida State.
Speaker 3: We're not talking transfers from a mid major school, transfers
Speaker 3: from an ACYC school where she was the leading scorer
Speaker 3: in the country to go to South Carolina to play
Speaker 3: with their former AAU teammate Raven Johnson. But that to
Speaker 3: me is surprising. Just what's different about basketball now, different
Speaker 3: about college sports is that really really good players have
Speaker 3: decided to go somewhere else for their second, third, fourth
Speaker 3: years to try to find whatever reason they want to transfer,
Speaker 3: whether it's they like the coach better, whether they want
Speaker 3: the bag of money, whatever it may be. But that
Speaker 3: is what we live now in the world of college basketball.
Speaker 2: In college sports.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, it's certainly a lot of chaos and
Speaker 1: spiciness in the off season. As you said, so I
Speaker 1: was scrolling through X yesterday, and I saw Jane McManus
Speaker 1: posts a tweet about Charlie Baker addressing the APS and
Speaker 1: saying that the NCAA is looking at maybe expanding the
Speaker 1: men's and women's basketball tournaments to seventy two or seventy
Speaker 1: six teams. Good idea or not.
Speaker 3: Okay, there's levels of this, as there are most things.
Speaker 3: If you expand the men's tournament, you have to expand
Speaker 3: the women's touring for equity. So that's the first piece.
Speaker 3: So it won't be like the men go to seventy
Speaker 3: six the women's stay at sixty eight. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: there's four or eight more teams right now.
Speaker 2: That deserve to get in the NCAA tournament.
Speaker 3: You weren't like, oh man, this team was really like
Speaker 3: left out, so to speak. So I think that if
Speaker 3: you're just expanding to expand, that's.
Speaker 2: Not a reason to do it.
Speaker 3: But if they get more money out of it, which
Speaker 3: they can't right now, they have to renegotiate the contracts
Speaker 3: they have with Turner and with the ESPN to get
Speaker 3: more money for the teams. So it says, you know,
Speaker 3: we have revenue now in women's basketball units, so that
Speaker 3: helps you can actually win games the torment make money
Speaker 3: if you're a conference your school.
Speaker 2: Which is awesome.
Speaker 3: I think that's the piece that is not really mentioned
Speaker 3: but has to be figured out, so to speak. I'll
Speaker 3: throw this out there to you. I talked to Charlie
Speaker 3: Baker at the Final four. We have a wonderful guy,
Speaker 3: great conversation. I think he's trying to do what he
Speaker 3: can to fix some of the problems the NCA has
Speaker 3: had over the years. We all know about the house
Speaker 3: settlement that eventually will come out with money on.
Speaker 2: For revenue sharing.
Speaker 3: I said to him, if you're gonna do something different,
Speaker 3: why don't we change it so that the playing games,
Speaker 3: the sixteen seeds all get a playing game, because usually
Speaker 3: those are like.
Speaker 2: The smaller the smaller.
Speaker 3: Schools, the HBCUs, the IVY League, whoever it may be.
Speaker 2: That way they a have a competitive game.
Speaker 3: Most playing games are within five to ten points, comes
Speaker 3: down to the wire. If you're sixteen seed, you're going
Speaker 3: to South Carolina, Yukon, Texas, whoever u CLA odds are,
Speaker 3: you're probably not gonna win that first game. If you're
Speaker 3: one to sixteen and probably won't be competitive just based
Speaker 3: on past history. But if you have a playing game,
Speaker 3: you get a chance to have a competitive game, and
Speaker 3: if you win that game, you get a chance to
Speaker 3: your second unit. Because the way it works is every
Speaker 3: game you play in the tournament you get a unit
Speaker 3: for so your sixteen seed, HBCU or whoever it may be,
Speaker 3: you get two units potentially for your conference, which money
Speaker 3: matters now versus if you're a it was Columbia versus Washington.
Speaker 3: I don't think Washington really needed the extra hundred plus
Speaker 3: thousand dollars so to speak to that conference, whereas it
Speaker 3: could mean something to these smaller schools, the smaller conference.
Speaker 3: So that's something I said to Charlie, Hey, maybe can
Speaker 3: figureway do this. I don't know smaller people that I
Speaker 3: can figure it out, but to me, that's something that
Speaker 3: would be actually pretty cool. A competitive game and chance
Speaker 3: of money for your conference in your school probably would
Speaker 3: be helpful.
Speaker 2: And make it more exciting for everybody.
Speaker 1: Oh, I act absolutely liked that idea. You need to
Speaker 1: be in the boardrooms to make the decisis, Doug, that's
Speaker 1: a brilliant idea. All right, So I know that you've
Speaker 1: been covering women's basketball for over thirty years when you
Speaker 1: look at all of the different final fours in the
Speaker 1: championship games. Obviously we got a really good show with
Speaker 1: Yukon in South Carolina in this past, but what were
Speaker 1: some of your favorite championship games that you were able
Speaker 1: to cover?
Speaker 3: So it was this was a neat one just because
Speaker 3: the page Becker's and the story beginning to what everyone
Speaker 3: knows what she went through from being the best player
Speaker 3: in the country as a freshmen to get me injured,
Speaker 3: and just what she went through and what better way
Speaker 3: to end her college career by winning a national championship.
Speaker 3: So that's a great story. We both know the games
Speaker 3: are not the most exciting because they're all blowouts in
Speaker 3: the frontal four and the championship, So from the standpoint
Speaker 3: of like competitiveness, it wasn't there. So if you asked
Speaker 3: you what my favorite games all time were, I mean
Speaker 3: Arika hitting the shots back to back to in the
Speaker 3: national semifinals and championship for basically the same spot. Nothing
Speaker 3: we ever top that. I mean, what's again being old
Speaker 3: and seeing in the past, like the Sports Illustrated covers,
Speaker 3: that was the thing every athlete want again to cover
Speaker 3: Sports Illustrated when they were younger and a Riquez shot
Speaker 3: to win the national championship. You see her hit it,
Speaker 3: and in the small little court in the background, you
Speaker 3: see me with my jaw open Galacy going, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: she's doing this again. So I got my chance to
Speaker 3: be on Sports Illustrated cover. So there's the selfishness of that,
Speaker 3: besides watching one of the greatest shots in the history
Speaker 3: of women's basketball and two times in three days. So
Speaker 3: that probably to me is the most exciting I've ever
Speaker 3: seen as far as like an NCAA title game all.
Speaker 1: That, and you're cemented in history, you know. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: At the recent Final Four when Gino was cut down
Speaker 1: in it, I saw a picture of me in the
Speaker 1: background and I'm like, oh, I'm kinda be fifty years
Speaker 1: from now, like, oh, that was be covering this championship game.
Speaker 1: So it's so funny. How to think about it from
Speaker 1: our perspective of this is a moment in the history,
Speaker 1: Like you, we get to do this work, we get
Speaker 1: to cover this corporate this is also us, like you know,
Speaker 1: recording moments of time and history of women's basketball. Doug,
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining us this week
Speaker 1: on the show before you get out of here. One
Speaker 1: final question that I like to end everything with is
Speaker 1: what is something that is bringing you joy this week?
Speaker 3: Getting to cover the WABA again just another year or
Speaker 3: so to speak, I mean again, we joke it's the
Speaker 3: first day of school, so for me it's probably the
Speaker 3: twentieth year of school or so.
Speaker 2: Which is cool.
Speaker 1: Super senior, You're a super senior, Super senior.
Speaker 2: Listen.
Speaker 3: I graduated Columbian five years so I was super senior
Speaker 3: for it became the cool thing to do with COVID
Speaker 3: and other things. But just that, I mean getting a
Speaker 3: chance to cover a sport that is great and seeing
Speaker 3: it grow and blossom and all the great stories that
Speaker 3: you and I get to tell of players over the
Speaker 3: next five months.
Speaker 2: That's spring me enjoy this week?
Speaker 3: If seeing a chance to see something new and there's
Speaker 3: always something different. What's great we love about sports is
Speaker 3: you don't know how it's going to end, and something
Speaker 3: can happen that you've never seen before, and that's what
Speaker 3: makes it special.
Speaker 2: So that's the joy for me. How about yourself? What
Speaker 2: brings you enjoy this week?
Speaker 1: You love it? I've never had anyone turn the tables
Speaker 1: on me on my own show. But one thing that
Speaker 1: has brought me joy this week, I want to say
Speaker 1: the same, just getting excited about the season, and really,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm like a mid senior now in this game.
Speaker 1: I've been covering the w for over seven years now,
Speaker 1: so it's been fun to just watch all the newbies
Speaker 1: come in on the media side, but also just being
Speaker 1: satisfied with the work that I'm doing, like oh my God,
Speaker 1: like people appreciate it, and just sitting and knowing that,
Speaker 1: you know, the work that we do matter. So I
Speaker 1: think that that's something that has brought me joy this
Speaker 1: week as well. So kind of the same same as you,
Speaker 1: just feeling joy in the work that we do.
Speaker 3: Well, keep doing what you do because you're one of
Speaker 3: the rising great young stars in this game.
Speaker 1: Thank you. One day, I hope to make the Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame like Keith Doug. But I want to thank
Speaker 1: you again for coming on the show this week. We're
Speaker 1: certainly going to paid paying section to all of the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing across the Associated press this WNBA
Speaker 1: season and beyond. Thanks again for slopping by. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me Christina. All right, coming up next, we're going
Speaker 1: to be joined by Shattering the Glass The Remarkable History
Speaker 1: of Women's Basketball authors Pamela Grundy and Susan shackle Forward.
Speaker 1: So stay with us. I am super excited about this conversation.
Speaker 1: Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackleford are the authors of Shattering
Speaker 1: the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball. It's a
Speaker 1: fascinating look at this sport I love so much. They
Speaker 1: go deep into the history of formative players, the setbacks
Speaker 1: and triumphs. Shattering Glass was the first was first released
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, but there's an updated version
Speaker 1: available that brings us to the twenty twenty four National
Speaker 1: Championship and the WNBA Finals, And those are two things,
Speaker 1: two moments in events that I was present for. So
Speaker 1: I'm super excited about this conversation. But if you've been
Speaker 1: curious about the evolution of women's hoops, this is the
Speaker 1: book for you. So without further ado, let me welcome
Speaker 1: in this week's guest. Please welcome in, Pamela Grundy and
Speaker 1: Susan Shackleford. Welcome to in case you missed it, Thanks
Speaker 1: so much. We're happy to be here. To be Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh my god, we were talking a little bit before
Speaker 1: we started recording about the book, and I thoroughly enjoyed
Speaker 1: reading it. I think that the history of women's sports,
Speaker 1: especially women's basketball, is something that gets lost even in
Speaker 1: today's present time. Is just not enough information out there.
Speaker 1: So I want to start this conversation with the question
Speaker 1: that I ask all of the guests that come through
Speaker 1: to the show. But it's your first basketball memory.
Speaker 4: I think like four or five years old, and I
Speaker 4: begged and begged and begged my father to please take
Speaker 4: me to basketball practice.
Speaker 1: He was a.
Speaker 4: Coach, and the high school was right up at the
Speaker 4: end of our block, and I used to watch them
Speaker 4: file into the gym. We were allowed to go up
Speaker 4: to the end of the block. So finally he gave in.
Speaker 4: He let me come up there, and I got to
Speaker 4: retrieve free throws for his boys' basketball team.
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, that's that's huge. That's huge, but a
Speaker 1: great memory. What about you, Kamla.
Speaker 5: It's funny how schools play into this and dads. My
Speaker 5: dad wasn't a coach, but he had been a high
Speaker 5: school basketball star and when he was a sophomore, they'd
Speaker 5: won the state championship of small schools of Texas. So
Speaker 5: I was really proud of that. Across the street for
Speaker 5: me in Manhattan, across York Avenue was PS one fifty eight,
Speaker 5: and they had a bunch of I didn't go there,
Speaker 5: but they had a bunch of summer and after school programs,
Speaker 5: so I would go and we would We didn't, but
Speaker 5: we did a lot of around the world and horse
Speaker 5: and that kind of thing. And I do remember that
Speaker 5: I was really good at the granny shot. I was
Speaker 5: a little girl, you know, I didn't care us have
Speaker 5: been eight, and so I could shoot that shot, and
Speaker 5: as I recall, I think it's accurate. I was better
Speaker 5: than a lot of the boys at it, even the
Speaker 5: bigger boys, and so that gave me a lot of pleasure.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that, just the stories about how your
Speaker 1: dad brought you to basketball, and just even just the competitiveness,
Speaker 1: because I feel like those are stories that we don't
Speaker 1: often hear. It reminds me of even my first basketball memory
Speaker 1: of playing in middle school and just advocating to be
Speaker 1: on a team because that while not back then I'm
Speaker 1: not that old, but that they were encouraging all the
Speaker 1: girls in middle school to be cheerleaders, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I want to hoop. I want to learn how to
Speaker 1: play basketball. So I absolutely love that. So let's dive
Speaker 1: into this book. How did the collaboration come about with
Speaker 1: you two creating this book.
Speaker 5: Well, that's actually a really fun story. I teach history
Speaker 5: at college level, and I was teaching history sports and
Speaker 5: it was really frustrating to me because there was not
Speaker 5: a good book about women's sports that you could assigned
Speaker 5: to undergraduates. There were some high level things that were
Speaker 5: really above their heads, there were some other things, but
Speaker 5: there wasn't anything really good. And so I thought the
Speaker 5: best way to do that would be the History of
Speaker 5: women's basketball because it covers so much time. Women have
Speaker 5: been playing it for more than one hundred years, all
Speaker 5: different kinds of women have played it, so you can
Speaker 5: really get at a lot of women's sports with basketball.
Speaker 5: But I didn't want to write it because I knew
Speaker 5: the history, but I know a lot of the present stuff.
Speaker 5: So I spent quite some time trying to get other
Speaker 5: people to write it. You know, I'd be like, you
Speaker 5: should write this would be a great book, etc. Etc.
Speaker 5: And then Susan moved across the street from me. We
Speaker 5: live across the street from each other. Tipa Avenue in Charlotte,
Speaker 5: and I knew Susan, and I knew that she'd been
Speaker 5: a sports writer and she loved basketball, so she do
Speaker 5: all this new stuff. So one day it occurred to me, Hey,
Speaker 5: Susan and I can write that book together. So we
Speaker 5: met in the middle of the street and I said, Hey, Susan,
Speaker 5: let's write the history of women's basketball.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that story of how the stars aligned
Speaker 1: for he Bo.
Speaker 5: It was meant to be.
Speaker 4: It really was, Christina. I was so excited about it.
Speaker 4: I told Pam that, and I said, because I'm so excited,
Speaker 4: I've learned I have to sleep on things when I'm
Speaker 4: like too excited. So I did, and very early the
Speaker 4: next morning I said absolutely, yes, yeah, and till we
Speaker 4: did it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, also in two thousand and five, why did
Speaker 1: you think it was an ideal time? Because the world
Speaker 1: now is completely different than almost twenty years ago. Why
Speaker 1: was it ideal time to write the first version of
Speaker 1: Shattering the Glass?
Speaker 4: We had been observing the momentum that had started with
Speaker 4: the ninety six Olympic team, and then the formation of
Speaker 4: two pro leagues coming out of that, and then the
Speaker 4: WNBA becoming the Survivor League and the excitement around it.
Speaker 4: I mean, they really were packing arenas and there were
Speaker 4: corporate people coming to the table. It was an exciting
Speaker 4: time and we really thought we were catching the wave,
Speaker 4: and I think we did, but then the wave sort
Speaker 4: of are about two thousand and five kind of leveled out.
Speaker 5: This is a thing often in history you think, well,
Speaker 5: you know, things have really improved and they're just going
Speaker 5: to keep getting better. And so I think that was
Speaker 5: the assumption from a lot of people that you know,
Speaker 5: a barrier had been broken and then it was really
Speaker 5: going to be upward momentum. But as anyone who studies
Speaker 5: women's history in particular knows, that's not how it works.
Speaker 5: You can't take anything for granted. And I think that's
Speaker 5: a great example.
Speaker 1: What you say now is the biggest difference from twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. Just the conversation around women's athletes and women's
Speaker 1: sports versus.
Speaker 5: Now one a key thing, and I think, you know,
Speaker 5: to get to the cultural ideas, basically, women's basketball has
Speaker 5: come to terms with sexuality for so long, you know,
Speaker 5: this was just a taboo subject. Everyone tried to avoid it.
Speaker 5: They tried to, you know, just squelch any kind of
Speaker 5: conversation because there was a big stigma and female athletes
Speaker 5: because they were doing something that was considered to be
Speaker 5: you know more for men, came under all sorts of
Speaker 5: pressure and all sorts of criticism, and so it really
Speaker 5: I think made people very tense and tight and they
Speaker 5: couldn't be themselves. And once that happened, once you know,
Speaker 5: the league and people and in some ways society itself
Speaker 5: came more to terms with that, I think things really changed.
Speaker 5: I mean in terms of how people saw the athletes,
Speaker 5: in terms of how the athletes presented themselves, it was
Speaker 5: just much more authentic.
Speaker 1: I think about the story of Suix too, and I
Speaker 1: watched a document and called Unfinished Business, and she talked
Speaker 1: about all the hits that she took once she came out.
Speaker 1: I think about SUPERB and how she talked about in
Speaker 1: her early years of her career where she felt like
Speaker 1: she couldn't be herself and she had to like kind
Speaker 1: of be a shell of herself because, as you said,
Speaker 1: the conversation around sexuality and different things like that, it
Speaker 1: wasn't common and it wasn't accepted. And you look at
Speaker 1: the league now and you see how athletes have just
Speaker 1: embraced who they are, and the authenticity is what selles
Speaker 1: ultimately for the league today.
Speaker 5: And I think it's again there's a great example of
Speaker 5: being connected to history. We interviewed Simona Augustus, who was
Speaker 5: really out front in terms of you know, being public
Speaker 5: and open and her decision, you know, to make her
Speaker 5: sexuality public. I mean, she hadn't hidden it privately, but
Speaker 5: public was when in Minnesota they tried to pass a
Speaker 5: law against gay marriage, you know, and so she was
Speaker 5: sort of like, this is a moment. It's time for
Speaker 5: me to stand up for myself and basically for all
Speaker 5: the gay fans that support it, that supported the team,
Speaker 5: and so you know, it's taking advantage of history, which
Speaker 5: I think these women have done really well.
Speaker 4: I think that's true, and I would just add another
Speaker 4: important aspect. It's very empowering and I think it has
Speaker 4: empowered the women in general being authentic to take on
Speaker 4: even more. I mean, and I feel a real gratitude
Speaker 4: to them for the leadership that they displayed around so
Speaker 4: many issues. And I mean I think about Black Lives Matter,
Speaker 4: and I mean, what a moment over a period of time,
Speaker 4: and they coalesced and they even took it as you know,
Speaker 4: Christina to the extent of you know, running supporting Raphael
Speaker 4: Warnock for Senate and helping us nationally politically get someone
Speaker 4: in office who really, you know, understands America for the
Speaker 4: broad nature of people and aspirations that it represents. So
Speaker 4: I just that empowerment that comes from authenticity is just incredible.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And especially like living through some
Speaker 1: of this stuff. Obviously in twenty sixteen, you talk about
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter and what the Minnesota Links were able
Speaker 1: to do, even the league's relationship or attitude towards the
Speaker 1: players doing that. I remember the players were initially fined
Speaker 1: for you know, standing up and doing what they did
Speaker 1: in terms of weirdness shirts and bringing awareness versus twenty
Speaker 1: twenty when they're at the forefront of the George Floyd
Speaker 1: protests and using that platform in the midst of a
Speaker 1: global pandemic, and how that language attitude changed around the
Speaker 1: league where they were more supportive of the players leading
Speaker 1: those movements and initiatives. So it's for me, it's crazy
Speaker 1: to think about because we're living through these moments of history.
Speaker 1: I love that you are able to capture those moments
Speaker 1: within the book, and so I want you to take
Speaker 1: a moment to think of maybe two or three moments
Speaker 1: of women's basketball history and just think about or explain
Speaker 1: or you know, what are two or three moments that
Speaker 1: you think led us to where we are today. You
Speaker 1: brought up the twenty sixteen Minnesota links and even the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty George Floyd raising awareness and flipping the Senate
Speaker 1: in Georgia as well. What do you think are some
Speaker 1: other key and pivotal moments that led us to where
Speaker 1: we are today. Well, I'm going to step back a
Speaker 1: little bit in time, because to me, the first major
Speaker 1: moment after back, you know, women started playing basketball in
Speaker 1: colleges was the nineteen twenties. And that's a period when
Speaker 1: high schools become a common thing across the country. I
Speaker 1: mean most communities, most people kids didn't go to high school.
Speaker 1: And there's this movement where in every town, every city,
Speaker 1: you know, there are now high schools, and you get
Speaker 1: high schools, and these high schools get basketball teams. And
Speaker 1: that's the point when basketball really reached across the country
Speaker 1: and reached young women. I mean all in all communities, rural, urban, black, white,
Speaker 1: you know, Native American you know, Latina, all of these places,
Speaker 1: all of these young women, you know, wealthy not wealthy,
Speaker 1: were able to play basketball. And that's what really started
Speaker 1: put weaving basketball into US culture and into women's experiences. Susan,
Speaker 1: is there any moment that you think was like a
Speaker 1: key moment or a pivotal change.
Speaker 4: Well, I agree with Pam about the high schools and
Speaker 4: their importance, their emergence in the twenties. From that point on,
Speaker 4: things were kind of up and down with women's basketball.
Speaker 4: It thrived in some communities and it was challenged or
Speaker 4: non existent in others. And I think that came on
Speaker 4: into the sixties and early seventies, and I was living
Speaker 4: that in the sixties and early seventies. And then Title nine,
Speaker 4: so I think I was just about to say that
Speaker 4: to me was probably the next big pivotal point. And
Speaker 4: I was in school at Chapel Hill at the time.
Speaker 4: I was in one of my classes. It happened to
Speaker 4: be women's basketball coach coaching the class, and she walked
Speaker 4: by my desk one day and she dropped this big
Speaker 4: stack of papers and said, look this over.
Speaker 1: I said, what is it?
Speaker 4: She said, just look it over. I said, okay, So
Speaker 4: I covered the women's basketball team at the time. I
Speaker 4: go back to the school newspaper, I look it over
Speaker 4: and it is the proposed guidelines for Title nine in
Speaker 4: their implementation. I was blown away. I just I started
Speaker 4: I called her, I started calling everybody about this monumental
Speaker 4: law that was being put in motion. And people around
Speaker 4: North Carolina were largely ignorant of it. There was just
Speaker 4: a small group that knew of it. And then, of
Speaker 4: course all of us know that it didn't just apply
Speaker 4: to education, where women were being barred from classrooms, barred
Speaker 4: from programs, barred from academic tracks and jobs. It bled
Speaker 4: over into athletics, and that's where we saw the big bomp.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I would say another big moment if we
Speaker 1: think about you know, today's times, is obviously when Sedona
Speaker 1: Prince she blasted or took that video of the inequities
Speaker 1: of you know, the NCAA tournament, the women's workout equipment
Speaker 1: versus the men's. I think that that was like the
Speaker 1: turning points. Now we have, you know, the women are
Speaker 1: able to use the March Madness branding, we have name
Speaker 1: immage likeness, and women athletes are able to profit and
Speaker 1: in so many cases getting more in I Owe money
Speaker 1: than some of the male athletes as well. I think
Speaker 1: that the turningtide in today's times is obviously off the
Speaker 1: backs of the nineteen twenties, off the backs of Title nine,
Speaker 1: but also now we have inted a new era of
Speaker 1: name image likeness, where you know, these athletes are outspoken
Speaker 1: and they want a piece of the pie and equal
Speaker 1: share of the pie. And you know, you see it
Speaker 1: in the Caitlyn Clark effects and some of these athletes
Speaker 1: becoming the household names. I'm curious while you were doing
Speaker 1: the research for the for this book, what was the
Speaker 1: most surprising thing that came up in the research.
Speaker 4: Well, for me, it was what Pam touched on a
Speaker 4: little bit earlier, and that was the extent to which
Speaker 4: the game was embraced across the country when the high
Speaker 4: school era came about in the twenties and there was
Speaker 4: broad public high schools. I mean, every kind of woman
Speaker 4: and girl was interested in this game when they got
Speaker 4: exposed to it.
Speaker 5: I was just.
Speaker 4: Very excited by learning that, and for.
Speaker 5: Me, it's in some ways related. I actually started long
Speaker 5: before on this subject when I curated an exhibit here
Speaker 5: in Charlotte about basketball in the region North Carolina, basketball
Speaker 5: is just sort of important. So one of the things
Speaker 5: I found when I was talking to people and telling
Speaker 5: them about the exhibit, a lot of them would say, oh,
Speaker 5: you know, my grandmother played basketball. They wouldn't say my
Speaker 5: mother played basketball because a lot of their mothers hadn't
Speaker 5: played basketball. Because again with this ups and downs, a
Speaker 5: lot of these women mostly meant to their grandmothers went
Speaker 5: to high school in the twenties, the thirties when women's
Speaker 5: basketball was a big deal, but then there's a big
Speaker 5: drop after World War Two. So the mothers who went
Speaker 5: to high school in the fifties, sixties, they didn't have
Speaker 5: basketball teams and they didn't play basketball. And again that's
Speaker 5: not what you think. Again you think about this, you know,
Speaker 5: ascending path, you'd have thought, well, moms might have played basketball,
Speaker 5: but grandmoms probably didn't. But in fact it's the opposite.
Speaker 5: And that's the.
Speaker 1: Kind of surprise that forces you to look more deeply
Speaker 1: and understand history better. I think that's super interesting. And
Speaker 1: you talked about throughout this conversation some of the obstacles
Speaker 1: that athletes had faced. Are there any stories that epitomizes
Speaker 1: the perseverance of how far, you know, we've come in
Speaker 1: terms of women's basketball.
Speaker 4: Pam and I have talked about how women really exhibit
Speaker 4: this with the game, and so it was a hard
Speaker 4: thing to think about. Okay, who would we really single out?
Speaker 4: And we talked about Nara White, who is not a
Speaker 4: common name today, but she was the goat of her era,
Speaker 4: which was the fifties and sixties. At one of these times,
Speaker 4: as Pam mentioned, there was not widespread women's basketball. But
Speaker 4: Nara grew up on a farm in Tennessee. She was
Speaker 4: strong as could be. You know, she was in charge
Speaker 4: of her brothers. She played high school ball and she
Speaker 4: played for Nashville Business College that was part of AAU
Speaker 4: basketball and that's what really thrived at the time. And
Speaker 4: she was an All American AAU fifteen years. And when
Speaker 4: Sue Gunner, who later would become the coach at LSU,
Speaker 4: talked about the greatest players that she had ever seen
Speaker 4: during her time playing and as a coach. This was
Speaker 4: in the seventies, sixties or seventies, she made this comment
Speaker 4: that Nara was the best player she had ever seen.
Speaker 4: And that is stunning to me.
Speaker 1: As you was inducted into the Hall of fame in
Speaker 1: ninety two. Yeah, yeah, she was, and part of the
Speaker 1: challenge for Nira again she faced this criticism. She was tall,
Speaker 1: she was strong. You know, she didn't go out of
Speaker 1: her way to look cute and pretty and you know
Speaker 1: we're makeup and such, and she was heavily criticized for
Speaker 1: you know, not being womanly, not being a real woman.
Speaker 1: You know that some athletes, you know, get criticized for today,
Speaker 1: and so she really had to put all that aside
Speaker 1: and play and find a place to play when there
Speaker 1: weren't that many. So she was really.
Speaker 5: An example I think of that. There's so many more.
Speaker 5: I mean, you think Britney Griner, you know all she's
Speaker 5: you know, from college in college on. I mean, she's
Speaker 5: just got I mean, you just could pick so many people.
Speaker 5: But we like to highlight near it because most people
Speaker 5: don't know who she is, and we.
Speaker 3: Really all shod.
Speaker 1: We're going to take another quick pause and when we
Speaker 1: get back, we'll hear more from Susan and Pamela. We know,
Speaker 1: sports and politics they intersect, and with everything that's happening
Speaker 1: and it's current political climate, how do you see it
Speaker 1: impacting women athletes today?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean the first thing I want to say
Speaker 5: is that it makes women athletes that much more important
Speaker 5: because these are prominent examples of women who are strong,
Speaker 5: who are confident, who are competitive, and who are succeeding.
Speaker 5: As we all know, Unfortunately, with the current administration, a
Speaker 5: lot of women are getting pulled out of top positions,
Speaker 5: you know, a lot of when they're not bro you know,
Speaker 5: having strong competitive women, you know, in their administration and
Speaker 5: in other places. So it's really important that women's sports
Speaker 5: continue to provide that model.
Speaker 4: I think Pan's right about the need of the women
Speaker 4: coming out of this sport and in this sport to
Speaker 4: continue to be leaders. Our country needs them more than
Speaker 4: ever right now. I mean in all forms of life,
Speaker 4: but particularly nationally politically, I think we've got to watch
Speaker 4: Title nine very closely. I'm very concerned that the equity
Speaker 4: of providing women's sports at college levels is going to
Speaker 4: get sliced and diced away or just jerked. I think
Speaker 4: that has got to be watched very closely. That to me,
Speaker 4: and then you know, just in general, you know, what
Speaker 4: what is the climate to be able to thrive and
Speaker 4: to be the full person that you are. We have
Speaker 4: to stand out for what's right.
Speaker 5: And we need to circle ourselves around these athletes, you know,
Speaker 5: I mean really you know, up to support for that
Speaker 5: because it's so important. I do want to make it
Speaker 5: again a point about Title nine and you saw this
Speaker 5: with Sedona Prince. Just because there's a federal law that
Speaker 5: says men and women are supposed to have equal opportunities,
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean it's going to happen. And there's still
Speaker 5: a long way to go. And the other thing is
Speaker 5: that laws don't have any meaning unless they're enforced. And
Speaker 5: we have seen over history, when you've had an administration
Speaker 5: that is sympathetic to women's sports, they focus on enforcement,
Speaker 5: colleges know they're going to be watched, and things improve.
Speaker 5: When you've had administrations that have not seen this as
Speaker 5: a priority, there's a lot of backsliding. And so it
Speaker 5: really is essential for people on the ground to notice,
Speaker 5: to speak out, and to support and to support female athletes.
Speaker 4: That ebb and flow around. The support for Title non
Speaker 4: is really clear in our story. So anyone who wants
Speaker 4: to see that it does matter who's running things in
Speaker 4: Washington vis are the Title nine. They can see that
Speaker 4: as you come through in our history.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just going to say that we know
Speaker 1: that these women athletes have always been at the forefront,
Speaker 1: and I know that they will continue to do the work.
Speaker 1: Before I let you get out of here, I want
Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, the fun stuff. Pamil. I
Speaker 1: see you have your Final four Tampa hat on. So
Speaker 1: what did you think about the Final four? What was
Speaker 1: exciting about being in Tampa.
Speaker 5: The thing was just seeing all the support, all the people,
Speaker 5: all excitement. I mean, these people cheering like crazy, you
Speaker 5: know that last the final game. I mean we're near Columbia,
Speaker 5: so we've gone down to We've gone down to South
Speaker 5: Carolina games, and the atmosphere is incredible. I mean I've
Speaker 5: never heard fans yell so loud until I got that
Speaker 5: camp and heard the Huskies fans yell, and I mean
Speaker 5: it was definitely you know, and so it's the players
Speaker 5: and it's the people who just love the sports so much.
Speaker 5: That was the most exciting thing to me. And seeing
Speaker 5: great players play. You wish the games had been a
Speaker 5: little closer, but it was also great just to see
Speaker 5: the amazing things that some of these women can do.
Speaker 1: And Susan, the w NBA season is approaching us. Can
Speaker 1: you please tell me what's the most exciting thing that
Speaker 1: you're looking forward to, heugh this season.
Speaker 4: Well, I love the influx of talent that's coming from
Speaker 4: the college game, which we just saw at the Draft.
Speaker 4: I just thought that was just terrific. And the continuing
Speaker 4: rise of support for the draft and for these young players.
Speaker 4: And uh, Pamela and I started seeing in the last
Speaker 4: few years this continuation of following the personalities and following
Speaker 4: the storylines from college into the pros. That wasn't happening, uh,
Speaker 4: prior to a few years ago. Well, now it's happening
Speaker 4: like crazy. And I think that is indicative of the
Speaker 4: rising fan base. Uh, it's indicative of the better media
Speaker 4: coverage and visibility to the game. And I think with fans,
Speaker 4: when these storylines get really pumped up and they want
Speaker 4: to see what their favorite player team is doing, then
Speaker 4: it just feeds on itself. Then they're buying tickets, they're
Speaker 4: buying merch and and you know, everything rises. So I'm
Speaker 4: looking forward to just seeing, Okay, now where we are.
Speaker 1: Where are we now? Absolutely I want to get both
Speaker 1: of yours super super early predictions for who's gonna raise
Speaker 1: the Trophy in October and the w N b A
Speaker 1: which wait, brutal? What a brutal question.
Speaker 5: I like Minnesota, but I've got a soft spart at
Speaker 5: my heart from Minnesota for all they've done and for
Speaker 5: all this so but they've also got a great team,
Speaker 5: So I'll go with that Minnesota, right.
Speaker 4: You know, I think New York is going to be
Speaker 4: pushing hard to repeat I and they've They've just got
Speaker 4: a lot of talent, a lot of momentum. But the
Speaker 4: thing that that makes me kind of pull back is
Speaker 4: these other teams are cobbling together some really uh forceful nucleuses.
Speaker 4: So I mean, I guess I would defer to New York,
Speaker 4: but I'm not going to be surprised if, you know,
Speaker 4: we see one of these other teams, you know, come
Speaker 4: busting out.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I would have to agree my way too. Early
Speaker 1: prediction is maybe another repeat of Lastar's finals, Minnesota, New York.
Speaker 1: So we'll come back in October and see if our
Speaker 1: early predictions are true. All right, I just want to
Speaker 1: thank both of you so much for being here today.
Speaker 1: Thank you Pamela, thank you Susan, and for all of
Speaker 1: you listening. Please please please make sure you pick up
Speaker 1: your copy of Shattering the Glass the remarkable history of
Speaker 1: women's basketball. It's available from the University of North Carolina Press,
Speaker 1: so make sure you get your copy. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being here today. Thank you enjoyed it. I
Speaker 1: just want to thank Doug, Pamela, and Susan for coming
Speaker 1: on the show this week. Such great conversations, and that's
Speaker 1: going to do it for this week's episode. We'll talk
Speaker 1: to you on Wednesday, but before we get out of here,
Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe, rate, review all those things to
Speaker 1: this podcast, and I'll talk to you guys Wednesday. Peace
Speaker 1: in case you missed it with Christina Williams is an
Speaker 1: iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
Speaker 1: and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.