1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: She was inside that house. She could tell you what 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: it was like. I mean, she told everybody what it 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: was like to live with the Waggers. I remember Jake 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: saying that they were stressed. Decisions were typically made as 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: a group by list making clients to leave the house 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: immediately from us. Friday booked, Okay, this is the Pipson Massacre. 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: Returned to Pike County season four, episode seventeen, The Elizabeth Journals. 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. As always, it's important to 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: note that George Wagner has pleaded not guilty to all charges. 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose child is upcoming, has also 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Hours of testimony by 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: investigators and relatives have painted a dark picture of the 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: Wagner family and the contentious custody battle between Jake Wagner 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: and Anna Roden over their daughter. Today, one of the 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: most mysterious and least known figures involved in the case 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: takes the stand Elizabeth Armor, Jake Wagner's ex wife who 18 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: he met in Alaska. We've reached out to her before, 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: but have never spoken directly with her. We've only heard 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: from Elizabeth on the occasion she posted to social media. 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Like Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's ex wife, Elizabeth is one 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: of the few people uniquely positioned to discuss the dynamics 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: of the close knit Wagner family. The murder trial of 24 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: George Wagner the fourth continued in Pint County today with 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: new testimony from the ex wife of Jake Wagner. It 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: was one of the most anticipated moments of George Wagner's trial. 27 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: When Elizabeth armor entered the courtroom, George Wagner's eyes followed her. 28 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: He glared as she walked across the room and took 29 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: her seat to be sworn in in Martin. Sorry nervous, 30 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: I've said this before. We give her a lot in 31 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: that particular chair, So we'll just speak this slow and 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: if I say anything that you don't to understand or 33 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: is a confusing question, to let me know that. Okay, 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: can you please stay your name and start your last name. 35 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: My name is Elizabeth Armor. My last name is A. R. M. E. R. 36 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: The twenty nine year old spoke softly as she described 37 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: growing up in a religiously conservative community in eastern Tennessee 38 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: and what led to her moved to Alaska. I grew 39 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: up in almost another night community for most of my 40 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: teen years, and because of that, I did not have 41 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: a high school education, since they would go to eighth grade. 42 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: And so friends of mine in from the same room 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: that I lived on that I had kind of grown 44 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: up with a little bit. We're working with the church 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: there in Alaska that had like a parish school, and 46 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: so they had offered to help me get my high 47 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: school education because I was interested in presuming a more 48 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: standard kind of life stay. Even though Elizabeth wanted a 49 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: more traditional life, she still stayed close to her conservative 50 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: religious roots and attended a fundamentalist Baptist church in Alaska 51 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: where she met the Wagner's how did you come to 52 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: start attending that particular church? So that particular church was 53 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: the church that my friends from Tennessee were attending, and 54 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: that the church which had the school as far of it, 55 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: and the teachers at that school were going to give 56 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: me classes after school to help me help get up 57 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: to see this gen and so I was going, they're 58 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: just you know, because my friends were okay, were you 59 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: very involved with the church above the launch, like getting 60 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: a VD. I worked in the nursery sometimes, and I 61 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: say in the choir because I loved to sing. I 62 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: homeed one of the teachers with a like a Christmas 63 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: program versus the church for them. Okay, while you were 64 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: there in a Tenny Matt church, did you come to 65 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: learn or know some individuals known as the wag family. 66 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: I did. The Wagner family moved from Ohio to Alaska 67 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty seventeen, a little more than 68 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: a year after the murders. Elizabeth met them through the 69 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: church shortly after they arrived. And can you tell us 70 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: what was your first encounter with one moment? My first 71 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: memory of the Lavens was Drink and angela people who family. 72 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: But I just remember Jake and angelining the children walking 73 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 1: into church, and I remember thinking they were a couple 74 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: with a child. Okay. I didn't have any interaction with 75 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: them at that time or was that just an observation. 76 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: It's just an observation, okay. And then with their another 77 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: time where you had another awareness of that and there 78 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: one of their uh one and more of them. So 79 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: memory of the whatever's one was that I had come 80 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: out of the nursery for taking care of the children, 81 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: and I looked down the hallway and like Jake was 82 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: at the other end in the hallway kind of noticing me. 83 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: And then remember like feeling nervous. But I didn't really 84 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: have the experience with any kind of dating or anything 85 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: like that, so I thought maybe I was attracted to him. 86 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: Because I was. It was just an intense feeling. Jake 87 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: later found her on Facebook and asked Elizabeth out. Despite 88 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: her interest in Jake, Elizabeth told him she wasn't comfortable 89 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: going out with someone she didn't know. So what happened next? 90 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: So he made a point of introducing himself to me 91 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: personally next time when he was a church and wanted 92 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: to chat with me in the gym. Soon after Jake 93 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth began dating. Their life as a couple revolved 94 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: around the church and the small community they lived in. 95 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes we would go out and get meals just for local. 96 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: I wasn't with the basso restaurants. I remember getting ice 97 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: cream him very pen I think we went for walks 98 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: and you would sometimes just go for a drive. Okay, 99 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: was there a point where you learned that there were 100 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: some negative information regarding Jake and his family. Yes, so 101 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: shorting me up there so long and started coming to 102 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: the church, the pastor of the church the basically in 103 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: front of the church and saying that he had known 104 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: them in Ohio and that there was some kind of 105 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: news story out about them, and that they had been 106 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: bothered by the news, and that because they'd been bothered 107 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: by the news, they moved to Ohio to Alaska, and 108 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: that we should not really pay attention to the news 109 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: about them and just welcomed them into the community. And 110 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: did you also asked where did Jake offer an explanation 111 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: of it as well? He did, and what did he 112 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: describe for you at that time? He said, basically what 113 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: the pastor had, that his certainly had been had good 114 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: by the news media, that they had there was some 115 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: static on where he grew up. That was I think 116 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: ex girlfriend had been murdered and that people were putting 117 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: him under suspicion because he had dated her, and that 118 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: that was why it was the new story out. Okay, 119 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: And did you did you more of us accept those 120 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: exclentations from the pastor and from Jake. I did, because 121 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: the family of his loving Wood was ex law enforcement, 122 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: and so they talked with them about it, and they 123 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: said that basically, if there had been any truth in 124 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: these stories, they would have already been rested since it 125 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: had been two years time. As Jake and Elizabeth's relationship 126 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: grew more serious, Elizabeth meant more of his family. She 127 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: also witnessed first hand the family dynamics. So when they 128 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: met them, Basically, what I remember from going to their 129 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: house was that everybody was yelling. That was my impression 130 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: that everybody was yelling, and you said there was, yeah, 131 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: tell me about that. Well, just seem like everybody was 132 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: really angry and stressed and that they were all shouting. 133 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: I hadn't really heard people shout that loudly in my life. 134 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: And I remember Jake saying that they were stressed and 135 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: that you know, everybody was stressed. Okay, And can you 136 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: tell us was there a point where her relationship got 137 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: off serious with Jacob? Nine months after I met him, 138 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: he asked me to marry him. Initially, Jake promised Elizabeth 139 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: a long engagement so they could continue to get to 140 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: know each other, but according to Elizabeth, he kept changing 141 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: his timeline and pressured her to marry quickly. How did 142 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: you change, So Jake kept changing the nine wine so like. 143 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: Initially he said they would be engaged for two years, 144 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: and then as time went on, he kept giving reasons why, 145 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: all out, we have to move the data up, all 146 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: we have to move the data up. And he just 147 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: kept doing that over and over and over and over. 148 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: And you know, here I am in the middle of 149 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: making wendy plans and then suddenly you have to move, 150 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: and then busy and trying to manage everything. And he 151 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: just kept money today, off off until eventually it was 152 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: and we don't look after and ultimately what was the 153 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: reason as to why it happy? That time he said 154 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: that he was moving and that you know, basically I 155 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: was break it off or come with him. Jake told 156 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: Elizabeth his entire family planned on moving to a farm 157 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: in Missouri to raise camels and pigs, and that they 158 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: would have to get married quickly, which they did. Can 159 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: you tell us what happened on your wedding night? Since 160 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: I grew up Alish, basically, I wasn't actually Amish when 161 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: I grew up in that kind of lifestyle of that community, 162 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: very so their lifestyle. I had dated any money and 163 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: didn't have any experience with men, and so I had requested, 164 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: I know in certain terms, that we not consummate marriage 165 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: on that night, which Jake had agreed to but did 166 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: not honor. After forcing Elizabeth to have sex on their 167 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: wedding night, Elizabeth says, Jake demanded access to all of 168 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: her personal information. And when you say he asked you 169 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: for your personal information, what kind of personal information are 170 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: you talking about. I think account access numbers, my social 171 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: Security card numbers, my phone pass code, and at the 172 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: same time you also like saved my phone with his 173 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: so that he could see all of my calls and texts. 174 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: Did you also have to sign agreements prior to or 175 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: for any time? Yes, I remember angelone them asking me 176 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: to sign a paper that basically my understanding was that 177 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: it was to keep me from trying to get custody 178 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: of an event of the divorce. And what in the 179 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 1: event of the divorce? Okay, and knew they actually signed, correct, 180 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: I did, But Jake Wagner's desire to control his new 181 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: wife didn't stop there. On your wedding night. Did Jake 182 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: also discuss with you, did you should not have contact 183 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: with your family? He did him and tell me about that. 184 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: So two of my brothers in their early childhood had 185 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: sexually experimented with me, and I was quite young. My 186 00:12:53,800 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: family didn't have like sex education, so they were both 187 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: of them under the age of ten. And so the 188 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: first one had kind of approached me and appropriately when 189 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: I was three or four years old, and then none 190 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: on a completely different occasions when I was about seven 191 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: years old. And so because of that, Jake asked me 192 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: to contact with my family on my wedding night. Contact 193 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: with your entire family or just so two hours, I 194 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: remember it, asked my entire family. The day after the wedding, 195 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: all of the Wagoners accepted its newest member, Elizabeth, left 196 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 1: by car from Missouri. A week later after sorting out 197 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: her passport. Elizabeth joined the entire family Jake, George, Angela, Billy, 198 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: and the children living in one small, cramped hotel room. 199 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was horrified at the living situation and tried to leave, 200 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: but when she left the overcrowded hotel room to call 201 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: her brother for help, Jake found her and brought her back. 202 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,239 Speaker 1: So when I got back to the hotel room, everybody 203 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: was agitated. Angela, George, Jake had kind of confronted me 204 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: about having left the room by myself, and I said 205 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: that it wasn't really safe for me to leave the 206 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: room by myself because news reporters might be, you know, 207 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: outside and try to bother me or get me to 208 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: talk to her any more, something like that, And then 209 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: I needed to only the room with someone with me. 210 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: The Wagoner's time in Missouri was short. Even though Jake 211 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: promised Elizabeth they would never move back to Ohio because 212 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: of the news coverage and the police investigation. The family 213 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: returned a few days after failing to find a farm 214 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: in Missouri. I was unhappy about it because Jake had 215 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: basically promised me we were never going back to Ohio 216 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: because of the news story. But after being in the 217 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: hotel for I thought anything might be better. Okay, life 218 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: in Ohio is just as cramped and chaotic as ever. 219 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: With the entire Wagner family living under one roof, tensions 220 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: were always near a boiling point. Can you describe to 221 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: us the family dynamics when you were living there with them? 222 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: Between Jake and George and Angela, probably they interact with 223 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: each other how made all that okay? So usually interactions 224 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: were strained, As far as I remember, they were usually 225 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: highly stressed and emotion angry. Again, the shadowing contained The 226 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: decisions were typically made as a group, so they would 227 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: discuss what they were going to do, come to a decision, 228 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: and then that sort anybody would do. They make group decisions. 229 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: Though she was now a member of the Wagner family, 230 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was often at to leave the room. Angela and 231 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: George Wagner particularly did not trust her. Can you tell 232 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: us about those discussions where they would her, how they 233 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: would occur. Usually they would happen in the kitchen. I 234 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: wasn't usually asked to join them. I just remember that 235 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: I would hear people discussing things in the kitchen, and 236 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: because it was so loud, I would hear people talking 237 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: about what they're going to do, what their plans were, 238 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: how they were going to answer certain questions where people 239 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: ask them, how do they done to use their finances? 240 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: All that in the kitchen. Okay, So those were the 241 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: general topics that you would hear them discussing. They would 242 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: talk about finances, how they would answer media questions or 243 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: I think of that, how they were mentioning VCI questions 244 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: or police questions about the children, or about their clothes 245 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: and shoes. Are angry, selfish young gran Piacenye okay, here's 246 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: Stephanie and Jeff. She makes mention of growing up kind 247 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: of amish like in her words, and I assume that 248 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: means that she was a bit insulated and that she 249 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: was maybe raised in a bit of a bubble. And 250 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: on the one hand, that would make her a prime 251 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: target for a family of predators because she's potentially naive 252 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: and unaware of the outside world. And on the other 253 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: side of that, we've also heard rumors that some of 254 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: the Wagners were very paranoid that she was working for 255 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: law enforcement from day one, and they just didn't trust her. 256 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: So the fact that she's opted in to be recorded 257 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: and have video to tell her story is extremely big 258 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: and very brave. Obviously, we can't know what she's feeling, 259 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: but to face George Wagner in court and to put 260 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: her face and likeness out there, I think says a 261 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: lot about where she is. It's also interesting steph. Obviously 262 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: we don't know what George Wagner was feeling, but we 263 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: do know that he rarely looks up or shows any 264 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: sort of emotion, and he definitely looked up at Elizabeth 265 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: and almost looked like he was glaring, and he then 266 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: tracked her as she walked into the courtroom. So if 267 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: we're trying to surmise what he might be feeling, he 268 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: definitely has some strong feelings about the fact that she's testifying. 269 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: When discussion stuck out, Elizabeth remembered the Wagner's talking about 270 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: creating a bulletproof bulldozer to knock down prison walls if 271 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: any of the Wagner's landed in jail, and she remembered 272 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: them talking about key aspects of the investigation, tell us 273 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: what discussion did you hear about. I mostly remember them 274 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: talking about tennis shoes and saying something about, like some 275 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: of you Angela and tennis shoes from Walmart, But that 276 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: was because they wore boots, and they kind of like 277 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: impressed that only multiple times, like do you think we 278 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: would buy tend to use it boots because we were boots? 279 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: And they mentioned it multiple times. Going back to your 280 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: living with the Wagoners, did you have whatever had conversations 281 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: with you about the sexual relations you were having with Jake? Yes, okay, 282 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: And can you remember what she said what specification she 283 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: discussed you? So I remember her asking if Jake and 284 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: I were trying to have a child and telling me 285 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: that it wasn't a good time for to have a child. 286 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: And I remember her asking if Jake and I had 287 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: sexual relations with in the room, and I remember her 288 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: suggesting that that was inappropriate. And I remember Jake and 289 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: I having that discussion, and I remember telling him that 290 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: I did not think it was appropriate and that he 291 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: did not listen. So you basically read that I was 292 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: at yes, and you expressed that to Jake. Yes, Angela 293 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: ever a huge of things, great party I went. You know, 294 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: I definitely remember it was food poisoning. She had consisd 295 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: me off Telly intentionally food poisoned the children. And was 296 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 1: there a time when she accused of something. Yes, there 297 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: was a time when it was brought to my attention 298 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: by Jake that she said that I had inappropriately touched 299 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: see And can you tell us what happens as a 300 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: result of that. So when Jake came to me and 301 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: told me that his mom but that I had touched inappropriately, 302 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: I was also informed that because of that allegation, George 303 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: wasn't comfortable with my living in the house, and then 304 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: I needed to go somewhere else. Ian, can you tell us. 305 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: Did you ever have a conversation with both Jakie and 306 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: Angela about these specific allegations? Yes, Ian, can you tell 307 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: us what happened during that conversation or what we said. 308 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: Elizabeth described this heated conversation as the final showdown between 309 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: her and the Wagner family and the moment she knew 310 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: she had to get away from them as soon as possible. 311 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: Jake said that he didn't believe I had done it, 312 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: but that you know, I need to explain myself because 313 00:21:55,119 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: Angela believed that I had appropriately. She was acting very 314 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: high and mighty so this week, and I was very shocked, 315 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: and I remember Jake questioning me very starting me like 316 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: did you do this? And held it out very clearly 317 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: to me that if I had done it, that the 318 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: right thing to do would be to create Lucille the 319 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: baseball map from The Walking Dead and string me up 320 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: in the barn, beat me to death with the baseball bat, 321 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: both those the barn writ it down and hunt down 322 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: and killed my family. And then if he didn't do it, 323 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: his mom would do it. If his mom didn't do it, 324 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: his dad would do it, or George would do it, 325 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: or Billy or you know, He just kept saying, any 326 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: of them would be willing to do this because something 327 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: that right to do. Elizabeth says, she went to her room, 328 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: packed her bag and called a friend for help. I 329 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: was making friends to leave the house immediately. I'm as 330 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: rid the going to Okay, We're going to take a break. 331 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Elizabeth Armor was determined 332 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: to flee Jake and the rest of the Wagoners. Elizabeth 333 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: began pushing back against the Wagner's rules, taking walks to 334 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: the library and the local cemetery. She also kept a 335 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: diary thanking one and if you could go ahead and 336 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: look at and first of all, probably if that is 337 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: what is showing on the screen, and fus my general 338 00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: edes okay, go ahead, and your granddaddy. The people I 339 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: live with are all right, I guess They're constantly yelling 340 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: and hitting, and not one of them understands the concept 341 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: or need for privacy. Even the most private of all 342 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: human doings are open for discussion and comment. In this family. 343 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: It grates on my nerves. Also, nobody seems to understand 344 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: basic ownership, okay, and can tell us is that one 345 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: of the general entries that you have written that was 346 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: discovered by other people living in the hall. Yes, and 347 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: were you speaking about them in that journal entry we 348 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: start speaking about George, Jake, Angela, Tune, Dick and Angela. Yeah, okay. 349 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: The prosecution then as Elizabeth to read another entry about 350 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: the Wagner family. Dear Granddaddy, I try so hard not 351 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: to hate people. Proof of this is that, out of 352 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: my entire crazy big family, there are only two people 353 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: I truly hate. But now, Granddaddy, there are free Annual, 354 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: Isaac and Angela. I'm going to call her miss Angela 355 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: because the name fits her anyways. Miss Angela is horrible 356 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: for all these reasons. One she married unwisely and believes 357 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: all marriages destined to end like hers. Two she has 358 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: her fingers in my husband's pocket book and makes exorbitant 359 00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: demands on his salary, holding her own quote unquote, gets 360 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: in help over his head like a claw to emphasize 361 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: her demands. Three she has more say over my life 362 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: right now than I do, because she controls my husband 363 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: through his child. Four she verbally abuses and yells insinuations 364 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: at my husband, which he doesn't understand but I do. 365 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: Five she dislikes and ridicules books, and she how to 366 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: reach less That that says since because she is a 367 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: manipulative liar, she is teaching our daughters to manipulate and lie. Seven. 368 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: My husband would listen to her far rather than to me, 369 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: because she has raised his daughter thus far. Eight She 370 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: believes me to be a replica of Tavy and treats 371 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: me as such. She has insinuated several ms that she 372 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: expects me to poison her. Nine she has repeatedly declared 373 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: that she will see to it that she will always 374 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: prefer to be with her and never accept me as 375 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: her mama. Ken she has threatened with my husband with 376 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: custody battles. Eleven. The most horrible thing is I have 377 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: her totally within my power. All I would have to 378 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: do would be to tell people she did it to 379 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: get away from her abusive mother, and I would get 380 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: her a lifetime sentence like that. Only thing is, much 381 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: as I hate the woman Scotts, it would not be true. Twelve. 382 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: She allows and encourages the minds of thesty Thirteen She 383 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: treats the children second, work first in kids, second, continuing 384 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: the same donary entry to want me to read in Fourteen, 385 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: she keeps tabs on me, always watching and listening to 386 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: see where I am thirteen and having to live in 387 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: her house under her direct control and condescension. Plan to 388 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: cross her, want to treat her only commonly and respectfully, 389 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: to try to become her friend. She's like Wonda, so 390 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: she really only respects working. I'm sorry, my handry is terrible. 391 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: Working three, be nice because I'm bigger than her, or 392 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: once I have her trust in friendship, slam the relationship 393 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: door and shut in her eyes. She likens hips food, animals, 394 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: guarding money, money, money, her kids, grandkids, working, cooking, figers, 395 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: and hospitality. She sends him about her weight and appearance. 396 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: She either was physically abused of or else mistreated in 397 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: her childhood. Basically Walm bosses want Indians. Elizabeth tried to 398 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: hide her diary from the Wagoners, but they later found 399 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: it and confronted her. What they asked you to do 400 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: with these items? What says ended you with them? I 401 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: think it was Angela and Jake, and I feel like 402 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: George was in near mind possibly read up. That's all Bye, 403 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: don't remember exactly that there's some of those things for 404 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: me wrote because the media or in the police or 405 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: somebody might get a hold of what I had wrote, 406 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: And so they asked if I would burn the journal 407 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: and flush it down the toilet and some to it 408 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: than I did. The Wagoner's demand for control over Elizabeth 409 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: led to more threats against her life. Indicated that on 410 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: your wedding night, Jake indicated that you should cut off 411 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: contact with your family. Was there ever a time where 412 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: he told you what would happen if one of them 413 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: showed up at your house? Yes? And what did he say? 414 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: And said that he would kill them? Determined to leave, 415 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: Elizabeth began making arrangements with her father to escape. On 416 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: July sixth of twenty eighteen, less than four months after 417 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: Mary and Jake, Elizabeth fled the Wagoner's grip. Can you 418 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: tell us what happened on the day to be batch? 419 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: We drove, We offered the parking lot. I walked into 420 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: the Walmart, changed my gloves halfway through the Walmart minute 421 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: changing statient so that I wouldn't look the same, and 422 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: left out the back through the entire section cause I 423 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: was a great They were following me and it was concerned, 424 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: and go into the into car, picked the same corner 425 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: out of my phone because I was concerned that was 426 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: being tracked, and my father was there in the car, 427 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: and we drove down a bunch of sun roads and 428 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: hit the car for a period of time, and then 429 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: when we knew we weren't being followed, we drove to 430 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: a restaurant where I switched vehicles and my friend depicted 431 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: me up and took me the rest of the way 432 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: to Virginia. Elizabeth Armer fled the Wagners and initiated a divorce. 433 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: George Wagner's defense team cross examined her and questioned Elizabeth 434 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: about her relationship with George and how serious a person 435 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: he was. You didn't really know him at all, lass, 436 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm m in at church that once or twice you 437 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: saw him tu? Yeah? And did you have long conversations 438 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: with him at the church? Yeah? So you met him 439 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: at the church once or twice, retroduced him after Jake, 440 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: after Jake had proposed to you, and then you helped pack. 441 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: That's kind of the extent of your contact with George 442 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: when you were in a last Is that fair? Okay. 443 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: Soon after escaping to Virginia, Elizabeth testified she was contacted 444 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: by BCI agents and asked note only about Angela and Jake, 445 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: but also George. During cross examination, the defense question Armour 446 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: about her interviews with BCI agents after she left the family, 447 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: asking her whether she thought those threats were real during 448 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: that interview, the right, during the interview in Virginia, and 449 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: that one of the things about George was like, how 450 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: is that right? Yes? As Elizabeth answers from across the courtroom, 451 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: George Wagner is seen smiling. He seems to enjoy being 452 00:33:52,040 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: described this way. Yes, perhaps, yes, all right, topics that 453 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: you've disapproved of. He didn't approve these type of They 454 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: were quite prude, very rude, right, you want to do 455 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: things about jewelers. Is that not only would he tell 456 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: you the drugs or say, not only would he say 457 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: these drugs, but he said other things. And and you 458 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: came to an opinion that you got he was kind 459 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: of a blow on that type of say. And we 460 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: have to look up the definition of blow hard, but 461 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: that sounds reasonable, Okay. He would say things he really 462 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: didn't had blown off steed. I'm not sure if he 463 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: meant them or not. I don't want to infer his meaning, okay. 464 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: And when you talked to the officers in Virginia, they asked, 465 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: you can you tell us about Polurge is not your 466 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: kind of person. He seems that not the kind of 467 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: person I would feel safe because he's because of the 468 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: best interest of wars and not determinive choice in that area. 469 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: That would be my reason for that feel uncomfortable with 470 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: definitely one of my reasons. Okay, here's Jeff speaking with 471 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. What do you make of 472 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: George kind of smiling, he shows so little emotion and 473 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: he sort of lights up when he's talking about his 474 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: sexist jokes and calling women horse and stuff. Is that 475 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: I mean that must be That's a pretty bad luck. Yeah, 476 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: it is, particularly when you're sitting there and you know 477 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 1: you've got a panel of twelve people that are trying 478 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: to side what's going to happen with the rest of 479 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 1: your life. You know, you're in a five for year life. Literally. 480 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: It's powerful in the sense that you see you George's 481 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: behavior exhibited before them, So if it wasn't accented before, 482 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,760 Speaker 1: then it's dan well accented after that. When he smirks 483 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: about this, maybe giggles a little bit, you know, and 484 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: you know in a very you know, the same way 485 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: that some middle school child. It's like he has no 486 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: self awareness at that point in Tom, he has no 487 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: self awareness of what he's up here. We're going to 488 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. George 489 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: Wagner's defense attorney, John Parker continued to press Elizabeth about 490 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: whether or not she thought George was someone she took 491 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: serious or someone who simply ran his mouth. Just a 492 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: couple of part one interviewing you in Virginia, so that 493 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: would have been drive twenty eighteen after you left time. 494 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: They asked you about George particular. They as you when 495 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: George specifically would talk about what he would do, what 496 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: would he say that he was going to do with 497 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: those people if he got his hands on them. I 498 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: believe your response flaws. He would say things like, if 499 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: I had my way, we wouldn't be hiding out like this, 500 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: we would be stormy Mike Dwayne's office. Hundred of them, 501 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: and as you know, just blows. The Agrian asked you, 502 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: is that what you perceived them to be? You didn't 503 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: perceive them to be viable threats you thought? And your 504 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: answer was, I thought they're just blows, just like blowing 505 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: off sleep. Do you recall that, I do recall that 506 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: in your name. But Elizabeth later corrected the defense lawyer 507 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: and insisted that she was as scared of George Wagner 508 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: as any of the others. And when you left Ohio 509 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: after twenty eighteen, you were escaping from Angela. I believe 510 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: myself to here again, Jeff and Joseph Scott Morgan. And 511 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: do you think is she an effective witness to the prosecution. 512 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: I think she is an excellent witness for the prosecution, 513 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm a friends with guy, as you 514 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: well know. But to have this kind of circumstantial witness 515 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: that's up there where they can kind of paint a 516 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: picture of what life is like on the inside. You 517 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: can have all the blood evidence in the world that 518 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: you want, you can have all the ballistic evidents that 519 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: you want in the world. You can see bodies rip shreds, 520 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: But when you have a person that survived it is 521 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: there to tell the tale. She's potentially a nail in 522 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: a coffin. More on that next time. For more information 523 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram 524 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: at Kati Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker is produced by 525 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane Connor, how Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo 526 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff 527 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: Ti Music by Jared Aston. The Pike did Maasacar is 528 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Kati Studios. For more 529 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 530 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome 531 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: Mark Fite County, Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I just thank 532 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, 533 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: all said Gus all over the house? Who could have 534 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: killed eight family members in one life? I lost my 535 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: best friends and I will never be the same because 536 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. 537 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 1: The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. 538 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: The word that comes to mind is overkill. Who was 539 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: the master mind? I'm telling you is a framer. I'm 540 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: not sitting in prison. One thing I learned. The smaller 541 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch 542 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: our upcoming documentary The Pike County Murders, a family Massacre, 543 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on 544 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November 545 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts 546 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.