Speaker 1: Hey, want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is
Speaker 1: all ball. Uh, we continue my conversation with Pat Burke.
Speaker 1: Of course, Pat was a star in Foeba basketball, most notably,
Speaker 1: I would say, in Spain is where he's most known
Speaker 1: for playing and being a being a menace. Of course
Speaker 1: played in the NBA with your Orlando Magic and with
Speaker 1: the Phoenix Suns. How did he get to where he
Speaker 1: got to? How did he? And this is coming off
Speaker 1: of by his own accounts, a disappointing senior year. Here's
Speaker 1: part two, the beginnings of the pro journey with Pepper. Pat,
Speaker 1: you get done playing at Auburn. Okay, we'll take me
Speaker 1: through the process of because back then there was right,
Speaker 1: there was there was Phoenix, which was for and then
Speaker 1: of course there was Chicago, but there was also what's
Speaker 1: the one in Virginia. I can't remember what it's called,
Speaker 1: smith Port, There's Portsmouth. What did you attend?
Speaker 2: So I went to both Phoenix and Chicago?
Speaker 1: Okay, so you go to Phoenix and, as we had
Speaker 1: discussed in a previous pod, disappointing senior year, you're way
Speaker 1: too bulky to start the year. You couldn't move okay,
Speaker 1: but you know, and and you've been very honest about
Speaker 1: your confidence going up and down and up and down.
Speaker 1: Your conference was really high coming into the year. And
Speaker 1: then what do you remember about going to Phoenix in
Speaker 1: terms of your own personal expectations.
Speaker 2: I remember, you know, when I got there, obviously you're
Speaker 2: seeing some of the best athletes from that year. So
Speaker 2: I just went and just thought to myself, I just
Speaker 2: had to have a good showing. You know, there's a combine,
Speaker 2: so you're doing all types of tests, you know, vertical
Speaker 2: and sprint, defensive slides, all of these things. But then
Speaker 2: again it's still played out as I recall that, you know,
Speaker 2: coaches were also looking to make their mark, so a
Speaker 2: lot of playing time. Even though it was spoken like,
Speaker 2: hey guys, this is not about me, the coach would share,
Speaker 2: this is not about me. This is about letting you
Speaker 2: guys get your exposure. And that's that's not what happened.
Speaker 2: It was, you know, the guys who were more of
Speaker 2: a let's say, a star at the time. Those guys
Speaker 2: would have played more minutes and I but I wasn't
Speaker 2: complaining because I was again, it was very satisfied being there.
Speaker 2: I had a lot of gratitude for even being there,
Speaker 2: understanding that you know, a couple of years ago, I
Speaker 2: never even thought this was possible.
Speaker 1: Okay, Draft night, this is this is nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, said,
Speaker 1: who's your agent? Warren Gary? I actually, uh, Warren came out.
Speaker 2: As a front runner. I went through a couple of
Speaker 2: different interviews, and his partner at the time, he kept
Speaker 2: telling me, oh, I worked for this really great guy.
Speaker 2: I worked for this really great guy. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: then why can't I have him with my representation? So
Speaker 2: he said, that's no problem. So then we went and
Speaker 2: I started speaking to one and I met him after
Speaker 2: the like the first game in Phoenix at the at
Speaker 2: the Combine, and he he came to me, he was like, wow,
Speaker 2: you know you're you're a really good athlete, and you know,
Speaker 2: you started complimenting me and he said, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: getting some good feedback. And so then like that one
Speaker 2: of those evenings, I went to dinner with him, and
Speaker 2: I was out with like all these NBA coaches and
Speaker 2: gms and just you know, a fish out of water.
Speaker 2: And so anyways, after the Combine, we went through Milwaukee, Houston,
Speaker 2: I think Chicago, uh as some of the some of
Speaker 2: the teams that you know, had some interest. So when
Speaker 2: I'm done with going through and kind of doing a
Speaker 2: one day workout, Milwaukee shares to Lauren that he's like, hey,
Speaker 2: if Pats are there at forty six in the second round,
Speaker 2: we're going to pick them up. So I get all excited.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. You know,
Speaker 2: I never would have thought this was coming true. So
Speaker 2: I called my mom and dad and I'm like, hey,
Speaker 2: you're not going to believe this, you know, they said,
Speaker 2: this is My Dad's like, well, you know, it would
Speaker 2: be great if you came home and we could celebrate
Speaker 2: this together. And I'm like, Dad, well, there's a chance
Speaker 2: that this might not happen. This is just you know,
Speaker 2: because again with sports and professional sports, as you know,
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, things can happen behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: So I said, don't make a big fuss, but that's
Speaker 2: not what happened.
Speaker 1: When I got home, that's what happened.
Speaker 2: So I get home and there's a huge tent in
Speaker 2: the backyard. True to any irishman, my dad throws a
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know, a four kegger, and so all
Speaker 2: my highs teammates are there, Marty Waters is there, neighbors
Speaker 2: are there, all my dad's pals. And I get home
Speaker 2: and I'm like, holy shit, and I'm like, this is
Speaker 2: not happening. And you know, I'm the youngest of six,
Speaker 2: so my siblings are going I don't worry. This is
Speaker 2: gonna be great. It's be great. I'm like, no, you
Speaker 2: don't understand, like this might not happen. And if it's,
Speaker 2: if we're sitting there watching the television my name is,
Speaker 2: my name's not called, it's gonna be pretty freaking embarrassing
Speaker 2: to have all these people there. So everyone's coming up
Speaker 2: to me and and you know, I'm hearing from their
Speaker 2: version of what my dad said. They're like, oh, it's
Speaker 2: so exciting, you know you Milwaukee, while it's gonna be
Speaker 2: a great fit for you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm going through one by one like this might not happen. Oh,
Speaker 2: sure it's going to happen. So television goes on. They're
Speaker 2: starting to go through the first round. You know that time,
Speaker 2: Tim duncan you know? I think it's the first pick.
Speaker 2: And they're going through all these guys and everyone's like,
Speaker 2: this is so exciting gets to the second round forty
Speaker 2: second pick. Gentleman comes up to the podium. For the
Speaker 2: forty second pick of the nineteen ninety seven draft, the
Speaker 2: Milwaukee Bucks select Gerald Honeycut from Tulane. And I'm telling you,
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there and all my friends there was behind me,
Speaker 2: and when I turn there's just styrofoam cups like floating
Speaker 2: in the air, and there's just this vapor. Everyone's leaving
Speaker 2: the room as fast as they can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that one had to hurt, right, Jerald Honeycut none
Speaker 1: as meat to meet, ends up, ends up going, ends
Speaker 1: up going thirty It was actually thirty eight. It's the
Speaker 1: thirty eight. But let me ask you, there's a bunch
Speaker 1: of traditional centers that went. Okay, I'm gonna ask you, honestly,
Speaker 1: which one of these hurt the most? Okay, because I
Speaker 1: got I got all a Donald Foyle who had that
Speaker 1: great career at Colgate, right, he was ninth, Scott Pollard,
Speaker 1: Kelvin Cato, Paul Grant, John Thomas from Minnesota, Surge Wicker
Speaker 1: from North Carolina, Jason Lawson from Nova, Paul Rogers, Mark Blunt,
Speaker 1: and then some foreign players went as well.
Speaker 2: You know, I think when I was out in Phoenix
Speaker 2: and the Chicago thing, I think I compared myself to
Speaker 2: who do who do I look like? And Paul Grant
Speaker 2: stood out to me and I was like, you know what,
Speaker 2: I think I can compare myself with him. So when
Speaker 2: Paul went, I was like, okay. There was kind of
Speaker 2: no one in the room would have known, but I
Speaker 2: was like, you know, I think this is probably the
Speaker 2: most likely of people that's next to me that I
Speaker 2: know this could probably happen. So when it didn't, man,
Speaker 2: I kicked the door and I walked out my front
Speaker 2: door started walking down the street kicking rocks, just like
Speaker 2: this is bullshit. I just wasted all this time and
Speaker 2: never had any clue about, you know, a couple of
Speaker 2: specifics what was going on behind the scenes. And of
Speaker 2: course I didn't realize that I had, you know, a
Speaker 2: Bosman status and we'll get into that later, and having
Speaker 2: born in Ireland, so I just thought it was over.
Speaker 2: And so then my brother came out to the front
Speaker 2: door looking for me, and he's like Pat, Pat, the
Speaker 2: New York Knicks are on the phone, and so right
Speaker 2: away I was like I lit up, and I'm like okay,
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry, that's that was one of the other
Speaker 2: teams I worked out for. So I I ran back
Speaker 2: to the house and got on the phone, and I
Speaker 2: was delighted to hear that they were like, look, we
Speaker 2: you know, we were trying to figure out how to
Speaker 2: work some deals behind the scenes in the second round.
Speaker 2: Couldn't get anyone to bite, but we'd love to invite
Speaker 2: you into our summer league roster.
Speaker 1: So what what Warren say about about what your expectations
Speaker 1: to be about what to do next.
Speaker 2: I think he kind of went over again, like, you know, hey,
Speaker 2: it was a funny draft. There's a lot of early
Speaker 2: bigs picked up. But this doesn't mean the end of it.
Speaker 2: And you know, like any agent, anybody who's been in
Speaker 2: the business for a while, he's trying to put a
Speaker 2: positive side. He is like, this is great. Now nobody
Speaker 2: owns your rights. So now you can go play for
Speaker 2: anybody you want the summer. And I think that we
Speaker 2: could we could still make a roster. So he said,
Speaker 2: you know, the Knicks, We've been talking to them. They
Speaker 2: really like the workout that you had and they'd love
Speaker 2: to bring you to bring you on. And I think
Speaker 2: that you go out and make a statement in the
Speaker 2: summer league.
Speaker 1: So when did you go to New York?
Speaker 2: So I go up to New York maybe I don't
Speaker 2: even know how. Soon after that, I go up to
Speaker 2: New York. Jeff Van Gundy is the coach at the time.
Speaker 2: So I get up to their training space. I think
Speaker 2: it's in Rochester and so I'm training with about twenty
Speaker 2: guys and they're trying to get to the final cut.
Speaker 2: John Thomas, who's one of their picks, he there and
Speaker 2: so just working as hard as I can. I just
Speaker 2: remember this gym that you were working out. It was
Speaker 2: at a small college. It was it must have been
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifteen degrees in this gym, and Jeff
Speaker 2: Van Gundy just sharp, sharp tongue. Just if you were
Speaker 2: not in line with what he wanted, he was going
Speaker 2: to call you out. And he just he was just blunt.
Speaker 2: I just remember guys like they would sit there and
Speaker 2: go get drinks of water and he would just be,
Speaker 2: you know, explicit, like f bomb, like what the eff
Speaker 2: are you doing? You know we don't once said get water,
Speaker 2: and he's like telling guys, you know, He's like, look,
Speaker 2: if you're not if you are not putting your best
Speaker 2: effort into this. He goes, good luck to you in
Speaker 2: the future. He goes, if you if you think other
Speaker 2: teams are going to come look at you now, he goes,
Speaker 2: go get your high school gym, go in there, get
Speaker 2: get a trainer, call NBA teams, and when you get
Speaker 2: in the gym, just lock the f and door because
Speaker 2: nobody's coming. And guys were just getting called out, Like
Speaker 2: I remember there was one guy who had something on it.
Speaker 2: He had a tattoo on his arm. He said like
Speaker 2: pain or something like that, and Jeff was just like
Speaker 2: going up to the coach just going to be like pain.
Speaker 2: He goes, that's you say, dumbass. And I was just
Speaker 2: sitting there like I had never seen anything like it,
Speaker 2: you know, coming from Tommy, Joe Eagles and Cliff Fallace
Speaker 2: and of course my high school coach. I've never seen
Speaker 2: the business side being so real that, you know, if
Speaker 2: you weren't, if you weren't what they were ordering, they're
Speaker 2: just kicking you out.
Speaker 1: Summer League was it Lombie State or was it?
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, it was on Beach State. So I get
Speaker 2: out there and it was great, you know. I remember
Speaker 2: John Thomas was getting into a lot of foul trouble.
Speaker 2: So I was next up, and I just remember he
Speaker 2: just I had something to prove, And so every time
Speaker 2: I got the ball out of the basket, I was
Speaker 2: just dunking on everybody that I could find, and just
Speaker 2: everybody was like, holy shit, like you know, sir, dunk
Speaker 2: a lot, you know, And I'm like, look, I'm just
Speaker 2: I'm just keyed in on everything that I can do
Speaker 2: to become one of the best players inside of this
Speaker 2: this showcase. And at the end of it, Van Gunny
Speaker 2: came up to me and he started sharing with me
Speaker 2: two things that were very very interesting. One he said, hey, Pat,
Speaker 2: I know your agent Warren and he goes, but I'll
Speaker 2: tell you this. We really like you, and we're going
Speaker 2: to do something the New York Knicks have never done
Speaker 2: in the history. We're going to offer you a guaranteed
Speaker 2: contract to an undrafted rookie. And I was like, holy shit,
Speaker 2: this is it. I just made the NBA. And he goes,
Speaker 2: but your agent's also telling me that you have some
Speaker 2: pretty lucrative deals that are coming from Europe. And I
Speaker 2: still didn't understand the whole Bosman thing. So when I
Speaker 2: get home, I have a guy who's been out for
Speaker 2: a while. Rob, we're Dan. He's my roommate, big seven footter,
Speaker 2: and so I was sitting there and I said, Rob,
Speaker 2: what would you do? And he goes, Man, I'm telling
Speaker 2: you this. I've heard a lot of people go to Europe.
Speaker 2: I said, but if I had that contract with the
Speaker 2: next I would sign that right now. And I was
Speaker 2: like okay. So then I talked to Warren and Warren
Speaker 2: was like, look up, you can sign that contract and
Speaker 2: I probably gonna be great. You're gonna be You're gonna
Speaker 2: be on an NBA team, You'll you'll you'll have an
Speaker 2: NBA lifestyle. He said, But I'm telling you, you know
Speaker 2: the Patrick Ewing is not coming out of that game,
Speaker 2: and everybody is convinced that you haven't reached your potential yet.
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is if you go there,
Speaker 2: you're not getting in, You're not getting game experience. It
Speaker 2: could be one and done. And what I have for
Speaker 2: you is there's a span. There's an Italian coach coaching
Speaker 2: a Spanish team in Spanish League, Sergio Scarloo, and he
Speaker 2: says he likes you a lot, and I guarantee you
Speaker 2: that you'll probably play anywhere from twenty five minutes and
Speaker 2: up in every game, and I think that you're going
Speaker 2: to get what you need is more development. So I
Speaker 2: sat there and I'm looking at these two options, and
Speaker 2: you know, then the of course, the money came into it,
Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, here's the NBA minimum and
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it, almost twice the amount to go
Speaker 2: play in Spain. And I was like, okay, this is
Speaker 2: really cool. And then I started thinking about what Warren
Speaker 2: was sharing. So I said, Morren, I'm going to go
Speaker 2: with the Spanish opportunity.
Speaker 1: All right, So you pack up your stuff and you
Speaker 1: go to Spain. What do you remember about arriving in Spain?
Speaker 2: So obviously having a European background, I get over there,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know any Spanish. I get there
Speaker 2: during the middle of a festival. It's a small town
Speaker 2: called Victoria. It's just outside of Bilbout, northern Spain. Very
Speaker 2: good basketball club and there's a festival going on that
Speaker 2: everything is shut down for like two days. So the
Speaker 2: handler that picks me up, he's telling me I'm broken English, like, okay,
Speaker 2: there's this festival going on. Here's your apartment. I get
Speaker 2: into my apartment. I don't have any Now we're not
Speaker 2: even on the euro currency yet, so it's pasades. So
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there, I have no posades. The banks aren't open,
Speaker 2: so for like a like almost two days, I'm sitting
Speaker 2: there in my apartment like I'm like, okay, I haven't eaten.
Speaker 2: I'm walking around. I can't exchange anything. Everybody's closed down.
Speaker 2: Remember I get to the first practice and I got
Speaker 2: to Sergio and he's like, hey, you know, how are
Speaker 2: you doing checking in? I said, Sergio, you know, I'm starving.
Speaker 2: I haven't eaten in like a day and a half.
Speaker 2: And I just remember he was like, you know, apologetic
Speaker 2: about it. But that was my first experience. And then
Speaker 2: of course when the practices started, it was it was
Speaker 2: not just a culture shock, but the basketball and of
Speaker 2: course the way it was coached was totally different than
Speaker 2: what I was used to.
Speaker 1: As well.
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Speaker 1: You had what Elmer Bennett was kind of an old head,
Speaker 1: and what Brent Scott as well. So for people who
Speaker 1: don't know, and I think this is right when I
Speaker 1: don't know Bozeman status started then. I thought it started
Speaker 1: in two thousand, but you had a European passport, you
Speaker 1: didn't count as an American.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's actually started one year before I got there.
Speaker 2: There was a was a gentleman with the last name,
Speaker 2: surname Bozeman, and I think he was a German national
Speaker 2: and he was playing in Spain or France or Italy.
Speaker 2: And so for people that don't know, when you're playing overseas,
Speaker 2: there is a there's an agreement in each league of
Speaker 2: how many foreigners can actually penetrate a roster because they
Speaker 2: don't want to have of course, what's happening in the NBA,
Speaker 2: they're they're looking to protect the national side of things,
Speaker 2: so they want to make sure that they're cultivating the
Speaker 2: younger guys who were coming in, of course protecting the
Speaker 2: contracts of the Spanish guys. And then they had like
Speaker 2: two spots. So it's changed a lot since I played,
Speaker 2: but at the time it was two Americans or two foreigners,
Speaker 2: and everybody else could be just a European national, which
Speaker 2: Bosman would go underneath that. So understanding the very easy
Speaker 2: way to think about it, just they were getting an
Speaker 2: American with me joined the roster, but I was only
Speaker 2: counting as as one of the European guys.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So what was your season like? And as
Speaker 1: people have come to learn, the style of basketball is
Speaker 1: very different, you point out the coaching is very different.
Speaker 1: It's still kind of almost collegial in that it's coaching's
Speaker 1: coaching centric more than player centric. Right, what was that?
Speaker 1: What was that adjustment like coming from Auburn now playing
Speaker 1: at taus Tramakan.
Speaker 2: So I'd say that, I'd say the build up is,
Speaker 2: you know, when I was at Auburn, you know, you're
Speaker 2: watching the NBA. You know, you're watching every game and
Speaker 2: there's you know, there's that fast paced you know, all
Speaker 2: you dunks, you know, four quarters, last second shots, all
Speaker 2: of that, and so that's kind of something to kind
Speaker 2: of get seeded into your mentality, like I can't wait
Speaker 2: for this to happen. So when I get to Europe,
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there and everything's slowed down and it's very
Speaker 2: tactful in its uh, its focus. So everything becomes five
Speaker 2: guys from working for one good shot. You know, it's
Speaker 2: it's all about you know, like getting ready for every team,
Speaker 2: like with just hours and hours of practice sessions, going
Speaker 2: over picking rolls, how we're going to actually play, you know,
Speaker 2: on the ball of defense. So it just becomes it
Speaker 2: becomes very cumbersome. It becomes to the point where I
Speaker 2: just feel like I'm taking shots in the beginning that
Speaker 2: they're like, no, you're not going to do that. So
Speaker 2: it was almost like I was this wild horse and
Speaker 2: they were trying to put a saddle on my back,
Speaker 2: and at first I was bucking it off. I was like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not going down with this bullshit. I'm going to
Speaker 2: keep playing the way I want. And so Sergio and
Speaker 2: I we got into a lot of arguments, but you
Speaker 2: wise won the league, right well, we went to the
Speaker 2: finals that year, so just making it to the finals,
Speaker 2: So again, is it for any of the people listening.
Speaker 2: The European has a kind of a relegation system where
Speaker 2: you know, depending on how your team does in one
Speaker 2: seat and that'll generate kind of where you're going. So
Speaker 2: what happened was is we actually qualified for the highest
Speaker 2: European tournament at that time, and it was something that
Speaker 2: they hadn't done in the history or a long time
Speaker 2: in the history of that team, so they were very excited.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of momentum. We played very well.
Speaker 2: We had a great unit as far as the collective
Speaker 2: and all the guys, and so what I was starting
Speaker 2: to realize is what I was trying to fight. I
Speaker 2: really started to appreciate more and more as the season
Speaker 2: was going on, I started to realize, you know, there
Speaker 2: is a sense of family here. There is you know,
Speaker 2: the collective of all of us. You know, when we
Speaker 2: would go to meals, pregame meals, we were all, you know,
Speaker 2: joining in with family stories and how we were doing.
Speaker 2: And there was something that I didn't have in other teams.
Speaker 2: So having gone that far, all the way to the finals,
Speaker 2: it was something that looking back, I took with me
Speaker 2: every year after that is we made it all the
Speaker 2: way to the finals and we didn't win, and that hurt,
Speaker 2: and I remember Sergio Scarleolo at the end of the
Speaker 2: season was like, you know, you know, in in Europe
Speaker 2: we have what's called Studio Pseudo Campions. It's like the
Speaker 2: second place, and we didn't want to hear we were
Speaker 2: second place, because you know, we had worked so hard
Speaker 2: and we believe that we should have won that league,
Speaker 2: but at that time TDK man race, so they had
Speaker 2: our number, and uh so it just turned out that
Speaker 2: from that point forward, I was like, I understand how
Speaker 2: much you've got to put into this, and if I
Speaker 2: ever get a chance to get all the way back here,
Speaker 2: I'm never I'm not going to you know, take this
Speaker 2: as a as something that you just you know, you
Speaker 2: get there and you just kind of rest on what
Speaker 2: you've been working for. I'm like, you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: put as much as I can into winning every time
Speaker 2: we get into this.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you get down with that year, what what
Speaker 1: was the decision like as to what to do next?
Speaker 2: So I actually had, you know, the shorter contracts in Europe,
Speaker 2: so usually they'll have like there's a one plus one
Speaker 2: and it'll be like, you know, you can agree on
Speaker 2: it or the team will agree on it. And so
Speaker 2: at the end of that I just I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just didn't connect with the coaching and I knew
Speaker 2: that a lot of the other guys, like Brent Scott,
Speaker 2: who really became like a brother to me, they weren't
Speaker 2: looking to bring him back and they were looking to
Speaker 2: bring back Elmer Bennett and some other guys. And so
Speaker 2: at that time, you know, I went home for the
Speaker 2: off season and I told Warren, I said, I don't
Speaker 2: think I want to go back there. And so then
Speaker 2: this team, Pontiffanikos in Greece contacted him and they had
Speaker 2: watched me play and they had scouted tapes and they
Speaker 2: were like, look, you know, we'd like to sign pat
Speaker 2: to a two year deal, and so I was like, okay.
Speaker 2: Well at that time, so I'm back in the summer,
Speaker 2: I start working out for Cleveland, the Calves, the Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 2: And then when I when I finished working out with them,
Speaker 2: both of those teams offered me a minimum deal. And
Speaker 2: I'm back to that same situation like with the Knicks.
Speaker 2: And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I
Speaker 2: can take this now, or I can take even bigger
Speaker 2: opportunities with bigger financial I guess contracts then what would
Speaker 2: have been offered for these minimum deals. So then I
Speaker 2: went and I signed a two year deal with Pontaikos.
Speaker 1: Now, the only thing about signing Greece is people think
Speaker 1: you're only going to get half your money, right. The
Speaker 1: old story in Greece is guys are making half what
Speaker 1: they tell you and they only get half of that
Speaker 1: actually into their bank account. What's the reality now, you
Speaker 1: played on the biggest club in Greece, what was that? Like?
Speaker 2: I'm fortunate enough that my home, my contracts with Warren.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd see the gentleman's side of Warren, I said,
Speaker 2: but there was a bulldog behind the business side of him.
Speaker 2: And I never lost one dollar with any of the
Speaker 2: teams I played with, So you know, I get the
Speaker 2: Pontonikos and two brothers own the team, and they also
Speaker 2: own a very large pharmaceutical company. Me so the budget
Speaker 2: for the whole team was so large that they would
Speaker 2: delay monthly payments, you know, because there was so much
Speaker 2: They were like, you know, trying to make as much
Speaker 2: as they can on interest or wherever they had invested
Speaker 2: their money. So there was times where I'd sit there
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, look, you know this is very awkward,
Speaker 2: but you know there's there's money that you know, we've
Speaker 2: signed a contract for and uh So then I would
Speaker 2: go like another two months and I remember I've gone
Speaker 2: up to our coach, Coacho Bradovic, and I just started
Speaker 2: creating a kind of disillusion that I had businesses and
Speaker 2: people that were counting on me back home. I SA know,
Speaker 2: I've got a business back home, and there are people
Speaker 2: that I'm paying, and I got to make sure that
Speaker 2: keeps going. So I might have to fly back during
Speaker 2: the season to take care of us, to figure out
Speaker 2: what assets we're going to like, you know, change over
Speaker 2: so I can pay these people.
Speaker 1: And remarkably got paid and remarkably.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that these two little guys come into the
Speaker 2: to the locker room, and all the Greek nationals they're
Speaker 2: all terrified of them. So these two little guys are
Speaker 2: going around there just going you have a claim? Do
Speaker 2: you have a claim? Do the And I was like,
Speaker 2: I love to claim, you know, I just I just
Speaker 2: know that I have an agreement. You know, we made
Speaker 2: an agreement. And they're just looking at me like why
Speaker 2: is this one guy not afraid of us? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, the reality is is you know, there's basketball everywhere,
Speaker 2: so if you want to break the contract, we know
Speaker 2: we can go somewhere else. So then after one game,
Speaker 2: I'm we've we win a game, and I'm coming out
Speaker 2: the tunnel and these two guys they're way up at
Speaker 2: the top. They practically have two thrones sitting there watching
Speaker 2: the games. And as I'm walking through the tunnel just
Speaker 2: underneath them, they stop and they're like book, book, and
Speaker 2: I look up at them and they're like, we sent
Speaker 2: the money. And I was like, okay, thank you. You know,
Speaker 2: I just walked into the locker room like, you know, awkward,
Speaker 2: but I guess it's just the way it's done.
Speaker 1: How'd you play?
Speaker 2: So that first year I got in there, I was
Speaker 2: I was the understudy to Dino Roger, and that first
Speaker 2: coach that I had there, he was Dino's best friend,
Speaker 2: and it was it was the most awkward situation because
Speaker 2: you're coming from college. Now you have one experience in
Speaker 2: Spain where everybody's treated the same. But Dino was the exception.
Speaker 2: Dina would he says he was the best friend. He
Speaker 2: didn't come to the training camp the same as us.
Speaker 2: His girlfriend shows up at the training camp and stays
Speaker 2: with him before games. The experience was extremely militant, so
Speaker 2: they wanted us like all together at a hotel, taking
Speaker 2: a nap, eating our meal before even home games. So
Speaker 2: after the meal, when we'd all have to go to
Speaker 2: sleep and go to our rooms, Dina would eat his
Speaker 2: meal and he would just walk out into the parking
Speaker 2: lant a lot and just start to walk away. And
Speaker 2: so one day I was like, well, you know, my
Speaker 2: wife is sitting at home. I think I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: I can go take a rest at my house. So
Speaker 2: I start walking out and the assistant coach comes out
Speaker 2: to me and I'm just standing next to Dino and
Speaker 2: we're both kind of walking to our cars, and he's like, Pat, pet,
Speaker 2: where are you going? And they said, uh, I'm just
Speaker 2: looking over at Dina. I said, I think I'm just
Speaker 2: going to take a rest at home before the game.
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, no, it's better that you you
Speaker 2: come over here and stay in the hotel. And I
Speaker 2: keep looking over at Dina, and Dino gives me this
Speaker 2: as half smirk, like, hey, the rules don't apply to me,
Speaker 2: they apply to you. And so I was like, you know,
Speaker 2: in the best interest of not starting an argument, I
Speaker 2: just walked back in and just followed suit. And again
Speaker 2: it goes back into you know, like I think most
Speaker 2: people who've played in Europe they realize like when you
Speaker 2: get there, you're slowly being hypnotized into a culture. And
Speaker 2: then before long, it's like you're just giving up your thoughts.
Speaker 2: You're just like, Okay, this is what we do and
Speaker 2: how we do it. And every year, Doug, every year
Speaker 2: I had left in those nine years, as soon as
Speaker 2: I got on the flight to leave, I would sit
Speaker 2: there like shaking my head, like, oh my god. They
Speaker 2: had a total hypnosis over me about what to think,
Speaker 2: what to where, you know, what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 2: And then you'd finally be freed of it because you
Speaker 2: get you're allowed to think for yourself. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the things that I recognized that, you know, European
Speaker 2: mentality with the coaching and the whole idea of team
Speaker 2: is extremely militant.
Speaker 1: It really, it really is the next year you got
Speaker 1: to start, right, do you know what? Do you retire?
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, So Dino then went over to our
Speaker 2: rival team, to Olympiakos. He got another big, bigger contract,
Speaker 2: so he ends up leaving big news inside the newspapers.
Speaker 2: We signed a new coach. We didn't go as far
Speaker 2: as we wanted in the European tournament, but we did
Speaker 2: win the Greek League that year. So the next year
Speaker 2: they bring in Zelko Abradovich and around that time if
Speaker 2: you remember, you know, kind of in the world of basketball.
Speaker 2: So it's around two thousand. Now, this is when Yugoslavian
Speaker 2: coaches are really the pinnacle of thoughts of how to
Speaker 2: produce the best basketball teams. So a lot of what
Speaker 2: they were producing as far as like going on, like
Speaker 2: we used to go to these training space in big guards.
Speaker 2: They like big guards, good guard, Well, the point guard.
Speaker 2: The point guard was broken down. It was like a science,
Speaker 2: and I felt I almost felt bad for every point
Speaker 2: guard we had because that's where our coach was. He
Speaker 2: was he was he was a point guard in the past.
Speaker 2: So everything they would do was just righteously told no,
Speaker 2: you stop right here, and it's two dribbles, not four.
Speaker 2: You know, you go over here and you make the
Speaker 2: fake this way with your the bawl over your head
Speaker 2: like this, and you do this and this is the
Speaker 2: speed you do. So everything was broken down to this
Speaker 2: exact ideal model. So when Obradovich came in, he changed
Speaker 2: the whole system and he started challenging every every one
Speaker 2: of our players. So then he also brought in at
Speaker 2: the time Zelko Rebracha and so Zelko had just won
Speaker 2: the Italian League and so when he came in, he
Speaker 2: was the starting center, so he was you know, at
Speaker 2: that time, we had Dan Bodi Roga and uh Zelko
Speaker 2: uh Rebrecha came in and those guys were you know,
Speaker 2: like at the time we were playing for the national team.
Speaker 2: And this is what I was sharing about the USA team.
Speaker 2: This is around the time that there was a huge
Speaker 2: disruption in any type of international basketball, you know where
Speaker 2: you know, from like two thousand and two thousand and one,
Speaker 2: these guys were, you know, they were winning gold medals.
Speaker 2: They were taking out our US station team. And that's
Speaker 2: right around the time that they you know, they kind
Speaker 2: of tapped USA tapped out and said, look, we got
Speaker 2: to rethink this how we're building teams. And they got
Speaker 2: Mike Krzewsky involved.
Speaker 1: It's interesting.
Speaker 3: So my.
Speaker 1: First pro experience I was with Inner Performances, right, So
Speaker 1: they were the other big, big agency overseas, and in
Speaker 1: two thousand we had a yugoslaviing coach and the plan
Speaker 1: was because I could get Israeli citizenship, I'd be a
Speaker 1: Bozeman B. Right, you were a Boseman as Bozman B.
Speaker 1: But I remember what I remember is I go to
Speaker 1: training camp and we have. The other point guard is
Speaker 1: he mister Jennings who's like five eight, five nine but
Speaker 1: unbelievable score, played in the NBA East Tennessee State, like
Speaker 1: unbelievable score. And he's kind of an old head, right,
Speaker 1: probably thirty at the time. And so I'm the backup
Speaker 1: point guard. But and because I'm a I would have
Speaker 1: been in Israeli Like, okay, if I it fits. But
Speaker 1: the only like, the only thing you could do to
Speaker 1: overcome because we had a yugoslavin coach, the only thing
Speaker 1: you could do to overcome the fact that you're small
Speaker 1: is you had to play the NBA and be able
Speaker 1: to just go get buckets, right, Otherwise, if you weren't
Speaker 1: six or five or above, you couldn't be a playmaker,
Speaker 1: couldna be a point guard. Right. So this guy I'm
Speaker 1: telling you, like in training camp, like he hated me.
Speaker 1: And what's crazy is like I played mostly the way
Speaker 1: that they'd want to play, but I was just small,
Speaker 1: you know, just small, and but it was it was
Speaker 1: amazing on how they truly believe like that there are
Speaker 1: specific passes, a number of dribbles, a way to enter
Speaker 1: the offense, a way to cut, like I mean as
Speaker 1: you played out like specific, this is the only way
Speaker 1: to do it. I'm like, okay, yeah it was. It
Speaker 1: was very very confusing to me. But at that time, okay,
Speaker 1: so now you've been in Greece for a couple of years,
Speaker 1: right you started to I think was it when you
Speaker 1: went back to Spain that you established yourself as probably
Speaker 1: you know, the premiere or one of the two or
Speaker 1: three premiere centers in Europe. What year do you think
Speaker 1: that was the peak? Well?
Speaker 2: I think so I finished Pontathonikos and I went to
Speaker 2: a smaller team, Marousied and that's when I got my
Speaker 2: opportunity to just to showcase what I could do. And
Speaker 2: so I had a good year. And so coming out
Speaker 2: of that, you know, a lot of people come up
Speaker 2: to me. I remember we actually even played Pontathonikos in
Speaker 2: our home gym and we beat them, and I hear
Speaker 2: from one of my good friends, Johnny Rodd that the
Speaker 2: two owners are yelling at the coaching staff like why
Speaker 2: do we ever get rid of him? You know? And
Speaker 2: so after that, I get a phone call from my
Speaker 2: agent after that year that I played so well, and
Speaker 2: he's like, hey, that first team wants to pick you up.
Speaker 2: You know the team in Spain, Talos Saramico. So I'm
Speaker 2: like really, He's like, yeah, they've been looking to get
Speaker 2: you back for years, and I said okay. So then
Speaker 2: they give me an offer. It's the largest offer that
Speaker 2: I've ever ever had, and I'm like holy shit. So
Speaker 2: I said, well, I've heard a little bit about this coach,
Speaker 2: so let me do some research with Elan Bennett. So
Speaker 2: I call Elmer and Elmer's like, Pat, you and this
Speaker 2: guy will not mix. And I'm like, okay, all right.
Speaker 2: So I called back my agent. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: think it's going to work. He's like, okay, you sure,
Speaker 2: and I'm like yeah, he's a lot of money. I said, no,
Speaker 2: I understand. And now at that time, my wife and
Speaker 2: I we just had newborn twins. They're premature, they had
Speaker 2: heart monitors on them, and so now I'm not just
Speaker 2: looking out for myself my wife. Now I'm looking out
Speaker 2: for an environment that's gonna help me to be, you know,
Speaker 2: a better father and not have a bunch of stuff
Speaker 2: getting my get in my head. So anyways, he calls
Speaker 2: me back like ten minutes later, he's at the upt
Speaker 2: the offer. So now it's even more so. Now I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 2: money's going to solve everything. So I go over sign
Speaker 2: a deal, go in. I said, one thing I got
Speaker 2: to get Now, this is at the point where I
Speaker 2: played five years and money is really you know, even
Speaker 2: though this is a great deal, money is not the ultimate.
Speaker 2: Because I realized I've just missed my brothers and sisters
Speaker 2: have missed weddings. I missed you know, I missed funerals.
Speaker 2: And I was like, you know what, my family time
Speaker 2: is going at the wayside here for all of this
Speaker 2: stuff because you know, when I get over there, it's
Speaker 2: so militant you're not allowed to leave anywhere you're.
Speaker 1: It that it's like for people who don't understand, like
Speaker 1: you end up missing it's a family like sports on
Speaker 1: TV regular You know, on one hand, right, very profitable
Speaker 1: life and in terms of basketball, and I'm guessing what
Speaker 1: two practices a day everywhere you went correct, yep to
Speaker 1: two practice to day. So it is a job. It
Speaker 1: is a lot of work, but oftentimes like it's basketball,
Speaker 1: it's not. But the all the things you're missing, like
Speaker 1: there's a value, there's a tangible value to that, and
Speaker 1: you can't something goes wrong or somebody needs help. You
Speaker 1: can't hop on a flight and fly from Spain, or
Speaker 1: agrees to just be home for a couple of days.
Speaker 1: Like what you're in, you're in, you're out, you're at.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And so I asked to go to
Speaker 2: my brother's wedding. So my brother was getting married in
Speaker 2: Ireland during the preseason, and I said, you know, I'd
Speaker 2: like to get you know, five days off to get
Speaker 2: up there, go go be around my family. So the
Speaker 2: owner of the the president of the team, Kerrie Hite,
Speaker 2: he says, okay, So we signed a deal. Long story short,
Speaker 2: didn't work out with the coach. She was like, no,
Speaker 2: you got you got an option. You can either go
Speaker 2: to your brother's wedding and be off this team, or
Speaker 2: or you can stay with us. So I shook his hand,
Speaker 2: I said, well, good luck to you this year. And
Speaker 2: everybody in the town hated. They were like, oh, we
Speaker 2: don't have a center now, like this is unbelievable. So
Speaker 2: then you went to Reale right, No, So that I
Speaker 2: get a call from my brother's wedding. I'm sitting there
Speaker 2: and I'm leaving at one am. This is the coach.
Speaker 2: He took my five days, and they agree. They said, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll let you go for two days. So
Speaker 2: I go to my brother's wedding and I'm flying back
Speaker 2: to Spain and someone in the lobby comes out and says, hey,
Speaker 2: there's somebody from the Orlando Magic on the phone, and
Speaker 2: so I get on the phone and this gentleman tells
Speaker 2: me one of their scouts. He's like, look, Stephen Hunter
Speaker 2: just tore his acl I think that you could make
Speaker 2: the team. And he's like, how's Spain going? And I'm
Speaker 2: like it's not going well. You know, I'm ready to
Speaker 2: give everything back. So anyways, I go and I come back.
Speaker 2: I leave taus Aamica and I make the Orlando Magic.
Speaker 2: And I remember it was like everyone's like, you know,
Speaker 2: where'd this guy come from. I'm like, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: I've been in America up for a long time, you know.
Speaker 2: And they're like, you know, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, like,
Speaker 2: where where did this dude come from? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I've just been playing over seas for five years. So
Speaker 2: then just getting my name back into the mix, you know.
Speaker 2: I go in and I'm the starting center for like
Speaker 2: the first nine or ten games. And you know, I
Speaker 2: think that that kind of charged that. Okay, you know
Speaker 2: this guy, he is an NBA caliber player. And then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden it became to the point where
Speaker 2: when I went back after that year, another just a
Speaker 2: little tangent is you know. Doc asked me at the
Speaker 2: end of the year, you know, would you like to
Speaker 2: come back? And I said, Doc, I'm taking a huge
Speaker 2: pay cut coming back here. This season didn't go the
Speaker 2: way I would have liked. I think that my best
Speaker 2: playing style is to play with European teams. And he understood,
Speaker 2: so he said thank you for the opportunity. And that's
Speaker 2: when I went back, and of course, like a year later,
Speaker 2: I'm playing for Real Madrid and that's I think that's
Speaker 2: where the Phoenix Suns then started to realize, like, look
Speaker 2: that this guy can play.
Speaker 1: Okay, So for people who don't know, we mentioned the
Speaker 1: two practices a day, Okay, paint the picture of the differences.
Speaker 1: Let's start with Morus, where you had that great year.
Speaker 1: What was their facilities like, they have a practice gym,
Speaker 1: they have a regular renaw what was it all like?
Speaker 2: Very small, It's probably could fit a thousand people, smaller
Speaker 2: than a high school. Gym. The there's two staircases going
Speaker 2: one would go into the locker room, an unfinished locker room.
Speaker 2: It was just a big concrete slab cell with like
Speaker 2: a picket hose and everyone's sharing a shower. And then
Speaker 2: on the other side of the basement there was a
Speaker 2: weight room that would you know, had like two dumbbells
Speaker 2: and you know, just a couple of kettle bells. So
Speaker 2: that was that was that year. But it was a
Speaker 2: great family experience, even though you knew that it didn't
Speaker 2: have you know, the most high tech and best equipment.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of people around it.
Speaker 2: There was a very good owner who cared a lot
Speaker 2: about you know, the team and the guy and putting
Speaker 2: together the best team that he could environment. So coming
Speaker 2: from there and then and then coming over and then
Speaker 2: you're walking into you know, the Orlando Magic practice facility
Speaker 2: where I'm getting a retina scan to get in the
Speaker 2: door to doing something like sci fi thing with my hand.
Speaker 2: They can fingerprint it like two or three times. So
Speaker 2: then there's like a laser beam that goes by my
Speaker 2: hand to let me into the practice facility, you know,
Speaker 2: with the gate. And then you get in there and
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of range Rovers in Lamborghinis sitting in
Speaker 2: the parking lot. It's a totally different experience.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm looking at Mercy's jim pretty well.
Speaker 1: It says it's seats seventeen hundred people. It does have
Speaker 1: stands on the side there and I and this is
Speaker 1: interesting because you played later in Russian Hinky Himty when
Speaker 1: I played Tiny Gym and then we played I don't
Speaker 1: know if mineral Water Mineral Buddha was in the league
Speaker 1: when you played, but they literally had stands behind the basket,
Speaker 1: a little bit behind the benches, and then they had
Speaker 1: like a track that people were like four or five
Speaker 1: deepont and then a wall on the other side. I
Speaker 1: was like, how do they make any money on this deal?
Speaker 1: Like how does this even work? Like such bullshit? It
Speaker 1: was amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it's the same business model as
Speaker 2: far as the owner's investment.
Speaker 1: It's all a mafia thing where they do.
Speaker 2: Something, but it's no way. I mean, they're not even
Speaker 2: making that much money. Like can you think about the
Speaker 2: NBA with just the merchandise, you know, the ecosystem that
Speaker 2: they have with merchandise, tickets, fan experience everything. I think
Speaker 2: that most of Europe is just on the television rights alone,
Speaker 2: you know, and I think that that's what they have.
Speaker 2: And it's funny because you see such a difference in
Speaker 2: the fans and of course the business owners that you know,
Speaker 2: when you're in the when you're in the NBA, you
Speaker 2: see all this sensationalism. Everything is just so heightened about
Speaker 2: the experience and everything that's going on. When you get
Speaker 2: to Europe, it's just very cut and dry. This is
Speaker 2: what here for. You know, we're not here for all
Speaker 2: these little frills and this and that. You're not here
Speaker 2: to like sign jerseys and sign or sell any jerseys
Speaker 2: or hats or anything like that. So it's it's it's
Speaker 2: a very different world.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're you're with the Orlando Magic. You played
Speaker 1: my guy Pat Garrity, right, ironic, ironical, you're the Irish one.
Speaker 1: He's Irish but from Colorado. But if somebody would have said, hey,
Speaker 1: who's the Irish national player for the Magic, they would put.
Speaker 2: And since then they still do it like someone will
Speaker 2: see me and they don't recognize me, and I'll tell me,
Speaker 2: you know, my name is Patt had played for the
Speaker 2: Magic like, oh, you're the Irish guy. I'm like, yeah, Like, man,
Speaker 2: you used to knock down those threes with that hitch
Speaker 2: with your foot. I'm like, that's Pat Garrity. And I
Speaker 2: don't even know if you know a lot of that.
Speaker 2: It's like and you know, I don't. I don't look
Speaker 2: to fight it. It's just like, you know, if they
Speaker 2: if they even realize that, you know, there's another guy
Speaker 2: named Pat on the magic, I'm like, that's cool.
Speaker 1: What what was Grant Hill?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: He was amazing. I remember when when I got there,
Speaker 2: he was probably the first person just in the in
Speaker 2: the preseason, just playing five on five pickup. He was
Speaker 2: the first person that was like, man, you know, like
Speaker 2: you can really play. And when someone at that caliber
Speaker 2: tells you something, you know, you go home and you
Speaker 2: tell your parents, you tell your wife.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there like it's boosting my confidence. And so
Speaker 2: that was that was a really cool thing. And then
Speaker 2: as the just before he got hurt, just playing with them,
Speaker 2: you know, his court vision and his ability, like I
Speaker 2: don't think he was attempting to get everyone the ball,
Speaker 2: but him being on the court like I was, I
Speaker 2: was getting a lot of points just for him seeing
Speaker 2: me cut and drive and running, you know, running the floor.
Speaker 2: So when he got hurt, it was like everything just
Speaker 2: completely changed like this, the whole system of the way
Speaker 2: the ball moved started to change. And then you know,
Speaker 2: of course, then it was it became really more on
Speaker 2: Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady that would get the ball
Speaker 2: all the time. But when Grant was there, I remember
Speaker 2: I was reading. I was reading a book, like I
Speaker 2: think it was like a Motley Crue book or something,
Speaker 2: and it was one of these documentaries had a lot
Speaker 2: of just incredible stories, and I remember it just on
Speaker 2: the bus. I just finished it and he was like, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, can I read that? I'll make sure. And
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what would Grant Hill want to be reading
Speaker 2: something about like a heavy metal band? But you know,
Speaker 2: he just opened to you know, a lot of conversation.
Speaker 2: And I've seen him since he's he's still the same
Speaker 2: person's like you can sit there and you can have
Speaker 2: a chat about anything and everything, and you know, there's
Speaker 2: no ego inside of him. He's just you know, he's
Speaker 2: sitting there and he's a very caring individual.
Speaker 1: That was the last year Sean Kemp was in the league. Yeah,
Speaker 1: give me your best Sean Kemp story.
Speaker 2: If I do this, this, this podcast might go I
Speaker 2: don't know, might go over to someplace you don't want
Speaker 2: it to hear. That was my road guy, So Sean
Speaker 2: right away, Sean and Darryl Armstrong of myself, we we
Speaker 2: got along great, and so like whenever we weren't playing
Speaker 2: or we were on the road, you know, we were
Speaker 2: the three guys that would go out and get a beer.
Speaker 2: And I just remember there was a there was a
Speaker 2: road trip where let's just say it was a five
Speaker 2: game stretch, and so the first time we get we
Speaker 2: pull into whoever it was, let's just say it's Denver,
Speaker 2: we go out, we have a few too many. We're
Speaker 2: sitting there the next day after the game, we're showering up.
Speaker 2: Sean's probably had twelve points, He's got like nine rebounds,
Speaker 2: Darryl's got like eighteen points, like twelve assists, and I'm
Speaker 2: sitting there with one point and you know, probably I
Speaker 2: fouled out. And then the next game, same thing happens again.
Speaker 2: Then by the third game and we're going out, you know,
Speaker 2: all the time, they're sitting there like, let's go road dogs.
Speaker 2: This is working When I was like, guys, We're sitting
Speaker 2: in the shower and I'm like, guys, I don't know
Speaker 2: if this is working out for me, you know, I like,
Speaker 2: I know we're going out and having fun, but I'm
Speaker 2: just not playing the well. And they're like, don't rule this, perk,
Speaker 2: don't rule this. This is good, and I'm like, I
Speaker 2: don't think this is good.
Speaker 1: Guys.
Speaker 2: We're going out tonight, and I'm like, okay, whatever, And
Speaker 2: I just remember like Doc Rivers coming up to me
Speaker 2: later and he's like pack Sean and Darryl. You know,
Speaker 2: they get after it pretty hard. I know you've got
Speaker 2: a good head on your shoulders, like you need to
Speaker 2: look out for them. We're gonna need them. And I'm
Speaker 2: like okay, and I'm like, who's looking out for me?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Just great, great guys, great memories. You know. Just
Speaker 2: it's just funny at that point, because you know, like
Speaker 2: with any athlete, you're looking for some sort of consistency
Speaker 2: to say, how are we live in our lives that
Speaker 2: were able to go out here and still perform, and
Speaker 2: their variables were going out with me having a few
Speaker 2: beers and then at the end they were sitting there
Speaker 2: comparing stats. But as long as theirs were good and
Speaker 2: mine were shit, everything was fine.
Speaker 1: Why Tracey McGrady at that time should have been like
Speaker 1: at his peak right the next year he actually next
Speaker 1: two years he led the league in scoring. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: he didn't win. Okay, didn't win.
Speaker 2: Why I'd say, just experience you know again, is you know,
Speaker 2: coming from Toronto. Uh, you know, I don't think. I
Speaker 2: don't think you can. Ever, how would I say this
Speaker 2: in an approach? It's like saying to somebody, I want
Speaker 2: you to think of a color you've never thought of before.
Speaker 2: You know, it's impossible. So how could he think differently
Speaker 2: if he's never been all the way to the top
Speaker 2: to realize it, Like, you know, in a comparison like
Speaker 2: when I went when I was playing with Spain and
Speaker 2: we went all the way to the finals. That was
Speaker 2: the that was the most success that I've ever experienced.
Speaker 2: So everything that was coming in was a new minute,
Speaker 2: it was a new ten minutes, it was a new hour.
Speaker 2: So I was like, wow, I've never been in this situation.
Speaker 2: When I look back at Tracy, you know, here here's
Speaker 2: all this talent. You know, great guy, but you know, leadership,
Speaker 2: they say, is lonely. So I think that a lot
Speaker 2: of times he was leading just by his physical example,
Speaker 2: But was it doing enough, you know outside the court,
Speaker 2: you know, was he putting enough demand on us and
Speaker 2: what we were doing, because I remember I went through
Speaker 2: a whole come of finest thing again where I just sank,
Speaker 2: and I remember he just kept coming up to me
Speaker 2: like as if it was you know, some sort of
Speaker 2: valuable counseling. He's like, Pat, you're fucking good enough, Let's go,
Speaker 2: and I'll just be like okay, you know, and that
Speaker 2: would be it. So I think going into that year,
Speaker 2: you know, we're in the playoffs, you know, we're up
Speaker 2: against Detroit, and then you know, he communicates something into
Speaker 2: the newspaper about how easily we're rolling through Detroit. Woke
Speaker 2: them up. So again as there's there's another moment where
Speaker 2: I'm sure he said, I'll never do that again, you know.
Speaker 2: And I think that a lot of a lot of
Speaker 2: what the magic organization and I'm not trying to bash them,
Speaker 2: but a lot of what the magic organization is it
Speaker 2: looks like guesswork at times. How do we come back
Speaker 2: and start winning? How do we get to that caliber,
Speaker 2: and they're building it around Tracy and they've got the
Speaker 2: the injury with Grant. So I think, you know, a
Speaker 2: guy like me at the starting center, it's like everyone's like,
Speaker 2: who the hell is that guy? So I think that
Speaker 2: even the roster at the time was not going to
Speaker 2: be one that was going to support him to go far,
Speaker 2: you know, in that year?
Speaker 1: What was Ben Wallace like to guard?
Speaker 2: Uh? He's a beast, you know. I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of I think there's a lot of guys that
Speaker 2: fit the bill as far as you know the size. Uh,
Speaker 2: there's there's stats all that, but here's this unorthodox six
Speaker 2: 's eight guy playing center, which is hulk strength and
Speaker 2: just his hard hat, you know, going out.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: I just remember that, you know, he was good friends
Speaker 2: with Darryl Armstrong, so I would get a lot of
Speaker 2: communication of like what he was thinking during the playoffs
Speaker 2: and what he was saying. And I just remember thinking that,
Speaker 2: you know, this guy is you know, somebody that I
Speaker 2: would love to find out what he's doing and how
Speaker 2: he's you know, how he's you know, figuring out how
Speaker 2: I get these extra rebounds. You know, what are what
Speaker 2: are the techniques that he's using but uh, just just
Speaker 2: a beast at that time.
Speaker 1: Doc obously he catches a lot of shit because how
Speaker 1: many of his teams have been up three games to one?
Speaker 1: This was like the first This was the first one. Right,
Speaker 1: you have three games one? You meant to it? What
Speaker 1: Tracy like? You lived it? How much how much of
Speaker 1: the fault of blame does Doc deserve?
Speaker 2: I could say that I don't know every conversation he
Speaker 2: was having behind the scenes with players. I think that,
Speaker 2: of course, you know, you're you're managing ego when you're
Speaker 2: an NBA coach, you're also putting together you know, the
Speaker 2: best rotations that you can. You're looking at, of course,
Speaker 2: everything that you're doing and is it working. So at
Speaker 2: that time it was working. But I do know this
Speaker 2: when we went into that that last game. Doc's a
Speaker 2: great motivator. But I don't know where the hell he
Speaker 2: got his last motivational speech from, because it was something
Speaker 2: about how Coca Cola is the number one selling soda
Speaker 2: and it's it puts millions of dollars into its marketing.
Speaker 2: And then he's comparing Pepsi and Pepsi does this and
Speaker 2: Coke does this, and I'll tell you what by the
Speaker 2: end of the damn motivational speech, I think we're all
Speaker 2: thirsty for a soda.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was like I woked over at Darrel Armstrong and
Speaker 2: I was like, what the hell did that all mean?
Speaker 2: And Darrel's just just be ready tonight, and I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, we go off and we lose the game.
Speaker 2: But for that to be his first one, I did
Speaker 2: hear that and rightfully so I'll own this. You know
Speaker 2: again is he said, if you look back on those rosters,
Speaker 2: especially the first one, you know, I don't even know
Speaker 2: if we should have been in the playoffs. So he
Speaker 2: put a lot of work into the regular season, and
Speaker 2: I remember his door was always open, you know. He
Speaker 2: communicated to me all the time. You know, we had
Speaker 2: just lost Horace Grant in the beginning the beginning of
Speaker 2: the season with you know, a confrontation that happened on
Speaker 2: one of our plane rides. And when Horace was left
Speaker 2: from the team. The next day, Doc was talking to
Speaker 2: me about I'm going to start you. I believe in you.
Speaker 2: I think he can do this, and again is it
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I've never had a coach like this
Speaker 2: at this level. That's talking to me about belief and
Speaker 2: allowing me to do, you know, whatever I could do
Speaker 2: on the floor. But again as I think that he's
Speaker 2: learned a lot from it.
Speaker 1: No, it's interesting you point out right, uh, that that
Speaker 1: roster if you had a Horace Grant and you have
Speaker 1: Grant Hill, well, now that's much different roster than the
Speaker 1: one that ended up the season where you have you know,
Speaker 1: Gordon Geirchik, Drew Drew Gooden who's super young at the time,
Speaker 1: Pat Garrity, Darrel Armstrong and Tracy Gray. That's that's the
Speaker 1: starting lineup, you know, it's the starting lamp in that
Speaker 1: in that last game. What happened? What gimme what happened?
Speaker 1: What happened with with Horace and what was the confrontation? Oh?
Speaker 2: Man, so we're coming in from I think we're out
Speaker 2: west and we're getting on the plane and uh, Horace
Speaker 2: is one of the last to get on. So so
Speaker 2: i'm I would sit to the right side of the
Speaker 2: plane and Sean Kemp was in front of me. I
Speaker 2: can't remember, Oh, Horace would have been behind me, and
Speaker 2: then just to my left there's a long couch and
Speaker 2: of course we all know that's Tracy's couch like he's
Speaker 2: gonna sleep, he's gonna get rest. And so just in
Speaker 2: front of him there's the other rookie, Ryan from Notre Dame.
Speaker 2: So so we're sitting there and Horace, yeah, Ryan Humphreys.
Speaker 2: They had a loss there for his name, so Ryan said.
Speaker 2: So then Horace gets on and he's talking to shelling
Speaker 2: a little bit and this and the other, and next
Speaker 2: thing you know, Tracy says something to him to Horace
Speaker 2: about something he's been saying, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 2: I heard you. You know you've been sharing something about
Speaker 2: you know, leadership of the team and this and the other.
Speaker 2: And Horace looks over at Tracy and he gets so
Speaker 2: emotional he starts stuttering, and next thing you know, he's
Speaker 2: just like no, no, no, no, that's not me. And again,
Speaker 2: I won't get into all the day cussing he did,
Speaker 2: but he was saying, you know, Doc was behind some
Speaker 2: of this. So then he turns his back towards the
Speaker 2: back of the planes and to the front and he's
Speaker 2: talking to Tracy and Darrel Armstrong gets up and Seawan's
Speaker 2: talking about They're like cool it, calm down, this and
Speaker 2: the other. The next thing, you know, Doc Rivers is
Speaker 2: right behind Horace As. He's on this just rant about,
Speaker 2: you know, coasing out Doc, and I'm sitting there, I
Speaker 2: got I got front row seats. Man, I'm sitting there.
Speaker 2: Connor McGregor like, I'm just like, holy shit. And I
Speaker 2: look over and Ryan Humphrey's got his head buried in
Speaker 2: a magazine. I'm like, now, dude, you want to watch
Speaker 2: all of this, you know, So I'm watching this, and uh,
Speaker 2: I mean, Doc is a big man, so he's like, hey,
Speaker 2: h He says, a horse, you got something to say
Speaker 2: to me? And horse turns around and he's looking right
Speaker 2: down in his face and he's like yeah. And they
Speaker 2: start going at it right and then Sean and myself
Speaker 2: and Tracy we're all gettingup. We're splitting them apart. Nothing
Speaker 2: but no swings were thrown split them up. And then
Speaker 2: we're all like, holy shit, to that just happened. You know,
Speaker 2: that just happened. And then we get off the plane,
Speaker 2: you know, and everyone's just getting out. And then the
Speaker 2: next day, you know, they teld me that Horas has
Speaker 2: been released from the team, and that's this.
Speaker 1: And this this is you coming back from Europe where
Speaker 1: it's a dictatorship.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, so I'm like, this is insane. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was. It was a totally new experience because you
Speaker 2: realize that, you know, we're all grown ass men and
Speaker 2: uh you know when I mean again, just like in
Speaker 2: any family, I still believe like with any culture, any community,
Speaker 2: any group, any tribe, you have to go through adversity,
Speaker 2: and adversity on the other side of it will start
Speaker 2: to build or forge something else. And so that's where
Speaker 2: the adversity was starting in the very beginning of that season.
Speaker 2: And there was some communication patterns that I was noticing
Speaker 2: as a trend, like going, Okay, something is happening here
Speaker 2: because someone's not taking the reins, or someone's complaining about
Speaker 2: their position and they're they're starting to point fingers.
Speaker 1: All right, that's it for part two of my talk
Speaker 1: with pepperg. Part three, we'll get you to the Phoenix
Speaker 1: Suns experience and what life is like for him after basketball.
Speaker 1: What's it like to shut it down, to know that
Speaker 1: you're done and then to kind of put your American
Speaker 1: life sort of back together and figure out what you
Speaker 1: want to do next. A collection of the thoughts and stories,
Speaker 1: and I think you'll be interested to hear what it
Speaker 1: was like to play in Phoenix when he had to
Speaker 1: play in the playoffs after a gigantic suspension of Boris
Speaker 1: Dial and Amari Stottam I remember that when they're playing
Speaker 1: the San Antonio Spurs in the NBA playoffs. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was Pepper. What went so wrong for him in that game?
Speaker 1: You'll find out on Part three. In the meantime, Reminded
Speaker 1: of Doug Otleib Show is daily three to five Eastern time,
Speaker 1: noon to too Pacific. We also have the daily podcast
Speaker 1: which is Uncensored, Unfiltered you Love. It's called in the Bonus.
Speaker 1: That's on the iHeartRadio app. Just download wherever you download.
Speaker 1: Pod guests in the Bonus or the Doug Gottlieb Show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening on Doug Gottlieb. This
Speaker 1: is all ball
Speaker 3: H