1 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hey, want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: all ball. Uh, we continue my conversation with Pat Burke. 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Of course, Pat was a star in Foeba basketball, most notably, 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: I would say, in Spain is where he's most known 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: for playing and being a being a menace. Of course 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: played in the NBA with your Orlando Magic and with 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: the Phoenix Suns. How did he get to where he 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: got to? How did he? And this is coming off 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: of by his own accounts, a disappointing senior year. Here's 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: part two, the beginnings of the pro journey with Pepper. Pat, 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: you get done playing at Auburn. Okay, we'll take me 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: through the process of because back then there was right, 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: there was there was Phoenix, which was for and then 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: of course there was Chicago, but there was also what's 15 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: the one in Virginia. I can't remember what it's called, 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: smith Port, There's Portsmouth. What did you attend? 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: So I went to both Phoenix and Chicago? 18 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: Okay, so you go to Phoenix and, as we had 19 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: discussed in a previous pod, disappointing senior year, you're way 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: too bulky to start the year. You couldn't move okay, 21 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: but you know, and and you've been very honest about 22 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: your confidence going up and down and up and down. 23 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: Your conference was really high coming into the year. And 24 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: then what do you remember about going to Phoenix in 25 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: terms of your own personal expectations. 26 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: I remember, you know, when I got there, obviously you're 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: seeing some of the best athletes from that year. So 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: I just went and just thought to myself, I just 29 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: had to have a good showing. You know, there's a combine, 30 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: so you're doing all types of tests, you know, vertical 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: and sprint, defensive slides, all of these things. But then 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: again it's still played out as I recall that, you know, 33 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: coaches were also looking to make their mark, so a 34 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: lot of playing time. Even though it was spoken like, 35 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: hey guys, this is not about me, the coach would share, 36 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: this is not about me. This is about letting you 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: guys get your exposure. And that's that's not what happened. 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,839 Speaker 2: It was, you know, the guys who were more of 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: a let's say, a star at the time. Those guys 40 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 2: would have played more minutes and I but I wasn't 41 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: complaining because I was again, it was very satisfied being there. 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: I had a lot of gratitude for even being there, 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: understanding that you know, a couple of years ago, I 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: never even thought this was possible. 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: Okay, Draft night, this is this is nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, said, 46 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: who's your agent? Warren Gary? I actually, uh, Warren came out. 47 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 2: As a front runner. I went through a couple of 48 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: different interviews, and his partner at the time, he kept 49 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: telling me, oh, I worked for this really great guy. 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: I worked for this really great guy. And I'm like, well, 51 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: then why can't I have him with my representation? So 52 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: he said, that's no problem. So then we went and 53 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: I started speaking to one and I met him after 54 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: the like the first game in Phoenix at the at 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: the Combine, and he he came to me, he was like, wow, 56 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: you know you're you're a really good athlete, and you know, 57 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: you started complimenting me and he said, you know, I'm 58 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: getting some good feedback. And so then like that one 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: of those evenings, I went to dinner with him, and 60 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: I was out with like all these NBA coaches and 61 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: gms and just you know, a fish out of water. 62 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: And so anyways, after the Combine, we went through Milwaukee, Houston, 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: I think Chicago, uh as some of the some of 64 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: the teams that you know, had some interest. So when 65 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: I'm done with going through and kind of doing a 66 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: one day workout, Milwaukee shares to Lauren that he's like, hey, 67 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: if Pats are there at forty six in the second round, 68 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: we're going to pick them up. So I get all excited. 69 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. You know, 70 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: I never would have thought this was coming true. So 71 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: I called my mom and dad and I'm like, hey, 72 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 2: you're not going to believe this, you know, they said, 73 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: this is My Dad's like, well, you know, it would 74 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 2: be great if you came home and we could celebrate 75 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: this together. And I'm like, Dad, well, there's a chance 76 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: that this might not happen. This is just you know, 77 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: because again with sports and professional sports, as you know, 78 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, things can happen behind the scenes. 79 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 2: So I said, don't make a big fuss, but that's 80 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 2: not what happened. 81 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: When I got home, that's what happened. 82 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: So I get home and there's a huge tent in 83 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: the backyard. True to any irishman, my dad throws a 84 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: maybe I don't know, a four kegger, and so all 85 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: my highs teammates are there, Marty Waters is there, neighbors 86 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: are there, all my dad's pals. And I get home 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: and I'm like, holy shit, and I'm like, this is 88 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: not happening. And you know, I'm the youngest of six, 89 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: so my siblings are going I don't worry. This is 90 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: gonna be great. It's be great. I'm like, no, you 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: don't understand, like this might not happen. And if it's, 92 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: if we're sitting there watching the television my name is, 93 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: my name's not called, it's gonna be pretty freaking embarrassing 94 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: to have all these people there. So everyone's coming up 95 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 2: to me and and you know, I'm hearing from their 96 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: version of what my dad said. They're like, oh, it's 97 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: so exciting, you know you Milwaukee, while it's gonna be 98 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: a great fit for you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, 99 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: I'm going through one by one like this might not happen. Oh, 100 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: sure it's going to happen. So television goes on. They're 101 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: starting to go through the first round. You know that time, 102 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: Tim duncan you know? I think it's the first pick. 103 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: And they're going through all these guys and everyone's like, 104 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 2: this is so exciting gets to the second round forty 105 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: second pick. Gentleman comes up to the podium. For the 106 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: forty second pick of the nineteen ninety seven draft, the 107 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: Milwaukee Bucks select Gerald Honeycut from Tulane. And I'm telling you, 108 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there and all my friends there was behind me, 109 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: and when I turn there's just styrofoam cups like floating 110 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 2: in the air, and there's just this vapor. Everyone's leaving 111 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: the room as fast as they can. 112 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, that one had to hurt, right, Jerald Honeycut none 113 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: as meat to meet, ends up, ends up going, ends 114 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: up going thirty It was actually thirty eight. It's the 115 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: thirty eight. But let me ask you, there's a bunch 116 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: of traditional centers that went. Okay, I'm gonna ask you, honestly, 117 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: which one of these hurt the most? Okay, because I 118 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: got I got all a Donald Foyle who had that 119 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: great career at Colgate, right, he was ninth, Scott Pollard, 120 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: Kelvin Cato, Paul Grant, John Thomas from Minnesota, Surge Wicker 121 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: from North Carolina, Jason Lawson from Nova, Paul Rogers, Mark Blunt, 122 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: and then some foreign players went as well. 123 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: You know, I think when I was out in Phoenix 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: and the Chicago thing, I think I compared myself to 125 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: who do who do I look like? And Paul Grant 126 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: stood out to me and I was like, you know what, 127 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: I think I can compare myself with him. So when 128 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: Paul went, I was like, okay. There was kind of 129 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: no one in the room would have known, but I 130 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: was like, you know, I think this is probably the 131 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: most likely of people that's next to me that I 132 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: know this could probably happen. So when it didn't, man, 133 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 2: I kicked the door and I walked out my front 134 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: door started walking down the street kicking rocks, just like 135 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: this is bullshit. I just wasted all this time and 136 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: never had any clue about, you know, a couple of 137 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: specifics what was going on behind the scenes. And of 138 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: course I didn't realize that I had, you know, a 139 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: Bosman status and we'll get into that later, and having 140 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: born in Ireland, so I just thought it was over. 141 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: And so then my brother came out to the front 142 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: door looking for me, and he's like Pat, Pat, the 143 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: New York Knicks are on the phone, and so right 144 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: away I was like I lit up, and I'm like okay, 145 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: and I'm sorry, that's that was one of the other 146 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: teams I worked out for. So I I ran back 147 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 2: to the house and got on the phone, and I 148 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: was delighted to hear that they were like, look, we 149 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: you know, we were trying to figure out how to 150 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: work some deals behind the scenes in the second round. 151 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: Couldn't get anyone to bite, but we'd love to invite 152 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: you into our summer league roster. 153 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: So what what Warren say about about what your expectations 154 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: to be about what to do next. 155 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: I think he kind of went over again, like, you know, hey, 156 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: it was a funny draft. There's a lot of early 157 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: bigs picked up. But this doesn't mean the end of it. 158 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: And you know, like any agent, anybody who's been in 159 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: the business for a while, he's trying to put a 160 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: positive side. He is like, this is great. Now nobody 161 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: owns your rights. So now you can go play for 162 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: anybody you want the summer. And I think that we 163 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: could we could still make a roster. So he said, 164 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: you know, the Knicks, We've been talking to them. They 165 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: really like the workout that you had and they'd love 166 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 2: to bring you to bring you on. And I think 167 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: that you go out and make a statement in the 168 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: summer league. 169 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: So when did you go to New York? 170 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: So I go up to New York maybe I don't 171 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: even know how. Soon after that, I go up to 172 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: New York. Jeff Van Gundy is the coach at the time. 173 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: So I get up to their training space. I think 174 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: it's in Rochester and so I'm training with about twenty 175 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: guys and they're trying to get to the final cut. 176 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 2: John Thomas, who's one of their picks, he there and 177 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: so just working as hard as I can. I just 178 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: remember this gym that you were working out. It was 179 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: at a small college. It was it must have been 180 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifteen degrees in this gym, and Jeff 181 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: Van Gundy just sharp, sharp tongue. Just if you were 182 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: not in line with what he wanted, he was going 183 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: to call you out. And he just he was just blunt. 184 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: I just remember guys like they would sit there and 185 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: go get drinks of water and he would just be, 186 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: you know, explicit, like f bomb, like what the eff 187 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: are you doing? You know we don't once said get water, 188 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 2: and he's like telling guys, you know, He's like, look, 189 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: if you're not if you are not putting your best 190 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: effort into this. He goes, good luck to you in 191 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: the future. He goes, if you if you think other 192 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: teams are going to come look at you now, he goes, 193 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: go get your high school gym, go in there, get 194 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: get a trainer, call NBA teams, and when you get 195 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: in the gym, just lock the f and door because 196 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 2: nobody's coming. And guys were just getting called out, Like 197 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: I remember there was one guy who had something on it. 198 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 2: He had a tattoo on his arm. He said like 199 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: pain or something like that, and Jeff was just like 200 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: going up to the coach just going to be like pain. 201 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 2: He goes, that's you say, dumbass. And I was just 202 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: sitting there like I had never seen anything like it, 203 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: you know, coming from Tommy, Joe Eagles and Cliff Fallace 204 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: and of course my high school coach. I've never seen 205 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: the business side being so real that, you know, if 206 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: you weren't, if you weren't what they were ordering, they're 207 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: just kicking you out. 208 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: Summer League was it Lombie State or was it? 209 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, it was on Beach State. So I get 210 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: out there and it was great, you know. I remember 211 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: John Thomas was getting into a lot of foul trouble. 212 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: So I was next up, and I just remember he 213 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: just I had something to prove, And so every time 214 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: I got the ball out of the basket, I was 215 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: just dunking on everybody that I could find, and just 216 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: everybody was like, holy shit, like you know, sir, dunk 217 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: a lot, you know, And I'm like, look, I'm just 218 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 2: I'm just keyed in on everything that I can do 219 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: to become one of the best players inside of this 220 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: this showcase. And at the end of it, Van Gunny 221 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: came up to me and he started sharing with me 222 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: two things that were very very interesting. One he said, hey, Pat, 223 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: I know your agent Warren and he goes, but I'll 224 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: tell you this. We really like you, and we're going 225 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: to do something the New York Knicks have never done 226 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: in the history. We're going to offer you a guaranteed 227 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: contract to an undrafted rookie. And I was like, holy shit, 228 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: this is it. I just made the NBA. And he goes, 229 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: but your agent's also telling me that you have some 230 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: pretty lucrative deals that are coming from Europe. And I 231 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 2: still didn't understand the whole Bosman thing. So when I 232 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: get home, I have a guy who's been out for 233 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: a while. Rob, we're Dan. He's my roommate, big seven footter, 234 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: and so I was sitting there and I said, Rob, 235 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: what would you do? And he goes, Man, I'm telling 236 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 2: you this. I've heard a lot of people go to Europe. 237 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: I said, but if I had that contract with the 238 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: next I would sign that right now. And I was 239 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 2: like okay. So then I talked to Warren and Warren 240 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: was like, look up, you can sign that contract and 241 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: I probably gonna be great. You're gonna be You're gonna 242 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: be on an NBA team, You'll you'll you'll have an 243 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 2: NBA lifestyle. He said, But I'm telling you, you know 244 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: the Patrick Ewing is not coming out of that game, 245 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: and everybody is convinced that you haven't reached your potential yet. 246 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is if you go there, 247 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 2: you're not getting in, You're not getting game experience. It 248 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: could be one and done. And what I have for 249 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: you is there's a span. There's an Italian coach coaching 250 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: a Spanish team in Spanish League, Sergio Scarloo, and he 251 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: says he likes you a lot, and I guarantee you 252 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: that you'll probably play anywhere from twenty five minutes and 253 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: up in every game, and I think that you're going 254 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: to get what you need is more development. So I 255 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 2: sat there and I'm looking at these two options, and 256 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: you know, then the of course, the money came into it, 257 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, here's the NBA minimum and 258 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: I'm looking at it, almost twice the amount to go 259 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 2: play in Spain. And I was like, okay, this is 260 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: really cool. And then I started thinking about what Warren 261 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: was sharing. So I said, Morren, I'm going to go 262 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: with the Spanish opportunity. 263 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: All right, So you pack up your stuff and you 264 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: go to Spain. What do you remember about arriving in Spain? 265 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: So obviously having a European background, I get over there, 266 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know any Spanish. I get there 267 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: during the middle of a festival. It's a small town 268 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: called Victoria. It's just outside of Bilbout, northern Spain. Very 269 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: good basketball club and there's a festival going on that 270 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 2: everything is shut down for like two days. So the 271 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: handler that picks me up, he's telling me I'm broken English, like, okay, 272 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: there's this festival going on. Here's your apartment. I get 273 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: into my apartment. I don't have any Now we're not 274 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: even on the euro currency yet, so it's pasades. So 275 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there, I have no posades. The banks aren't open, 276 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: so for like a like almost two days, I'm sitting 277 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: there in my apartment like I'm like, okay, I haven't eaten. 278 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: I'm walking around. I can't exchange anything. Everybody's closed down. 279 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: Remember I get to the first practice and I got 280 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: to Sergio and he's like, hey, you know, how are 281 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: you doing checking in? I said, Sergio, you know, I'm starving. 282 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: I haven't eaten in like a day and a half. 283 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,479 Speaker 2: And I just remember he was like, you know, apologetic 284 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: about it. But that was my first experience. And then 285 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: of course when the practices started, it was it was 286 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: not just a culture shock, but the basketball and of 287 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: course the way it was coached was totally different than 288 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: what I was used to. 289 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: As well. 290 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 3: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in 291 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio 292 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 3: dot com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to 293 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: listen live. 294 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: You had what Elmer Bennett was kind of an old head, 295 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: and what Brent Scott as well. So for people who 296 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: don't know, and I think this is right when I 297 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: don't know Bozeman status started then. I thought it started 298 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: in two thousand, but you had a European passport, you 299 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: didn't count as an American. 300 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's actually started one year before I got there. 301 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: There was a was a gentleman with the last name, 302 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: surname Bozeman, and I think he was a German national 303 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: and he was playing in Spain or France or Italy. 304 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: And so for people that don't know, when you're playing overseas, 305 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: there is a there's an agreement in each league of 306 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: how many foreigners can actually penetrate a roster because they 307 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: don't want to have of course, what's happening in the NBA, 308 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: they're they're looking to protect the national side of things, 309 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: so they want to make sure that they're cultivating the 310 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: younger guys who were coming in, of course protecting the 311 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: contracts of the Spanish guys. And then they had like 312 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: two spots. So it's changed a lot since I played, 313 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: but at the time it was two Americans or two foreigners, 314 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 2: and everybody else could be just a European national, which 315 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: Bosman would go underneath that. So understanding the very easy 316 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: way to think about it, just they were getting an 317 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: American with me joined the roster, but I was only 318 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: counting as as one of the European guys. 319 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So what was your season like? And as 320 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: people have come to learn, the style of basketball is 321 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: very different, you point out the coaching is very different. 322 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: It's still kind of almost collegial in that it's coaching's 323 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: coaching centric more than player centric. Right, what was that? 324 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: What was that adjustment like coming from Auburn now playing 325 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: at taus Tramakan. 326 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 2: So I'd say that, I'd say the build up is, 327 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: you know, when I was at Auburn, you know, you're 328 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: watching the NBA. You know, you're watching every game and 329 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 2: there's you know, there's that fast paced you know, all 330 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 2: you dunks, you know, four quarters, last second shots, all 331 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 2: of that, and so that's kind of something to kind 332 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: of get seeded into your mentality, like I can't wait 333 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: for this to happen. So when I get to Europe, 334 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there and everything's slowed down and it's very 335 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: tactful in its uh, its focus. So everything becomes five 336 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: guys from working for one good shot. You know, it's 337 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: it's all about you know, like getting ready for every team, 338 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 2: like with just hours and hours of practice sessions, going 339 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: over picking rolls, how we're going to actually play, you know, 340 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: on the ball of defense. So it just becomes it 341 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 2: becomes very cumbersome. It becomes to the point where I 342 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: just feel like I'm taking shots in the beginning that 343 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 2: they're like, no, you're not going to do that. So 344 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 2: it was almost like I was this wild horse and 345 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: they were trying to put a saddle on my back, 346 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: and at first I was bucking it off. I was like, no, 347 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: I'm not going down with this bullshit. I'm going to 348 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 2: keep playing the way I want. And so Sergio and 349 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 2: I we got into a lot of arguments, but you 350 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 2: wise won the league, right well, we went to the 351 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: finals that year, so just making it to the finals, 352 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: So again, is it for any of the people listening. 353 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 2: The European has a kind of a relegation system where 354 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 2: you know, depending on how your team does in one 355 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: seat and that'll generate kind of where you're going. So 356 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: what happened was is we actually qualified for the highest 357 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: European tournament at that time, and it was something that 358 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: they hadn't done in the history or a long time 359 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: in the history of that team, so they were very excited. 360 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 2: There was a lot of momentum. We played very well. 361 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 2: We had a great unit as far as the collective 362 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: and all the guys, and so what I was starting 363 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: to realize is what I was trying to fight. I 364 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 2: really started to appreciate more and more as the season 365 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: was going on, I started to realize, you know, there 366 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: is a sense of family here. There is you know, 367 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: the collective of all of us. You know, when we 368 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: would go to meals, pregame meals, we were all, you know, 369 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: joining in with family stories and how we were doing. 370 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: And there was something that I didn't have in other teams. 371 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: So having gone that far, all the way to the finals, 372 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: it was something that looking back, I took with me 373 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: every year after that is we made it all the 374 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: way to the finals and we didn't win, and that hurt, 375 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: and I remember Sergio Scarleolo at the end of the 376 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: season was like, you know, you know, in in Europe 377 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: we have what's called Studio Pseudo Campions. It's like the 378 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 2: second place, and we didn't want to hear we were 379 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: second place, because you know, we had worked so hard 380 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: and we believe that we should have won that league, 381 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: but at that time TDK man race, so they had 382 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: our number, and uh so it just turned out that 383 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 2: from that point forward, I was like, I understand how 384 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: much you've got to put into this, and if I 385 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: ever get a chance to get all the way back here, 386 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: I'm never I'm not going to you know, take this 387 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 2: as a as something that you just you know, you 388 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: get there and you just kind of rest on what 389 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 2: you've been working for. I'm like, you know, I'm gonna 390 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: put as much as I can into winning every time 391 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 2: we get into this. 392 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so you get down with that year, what what 393 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: was the decision like as to what to do next? 394 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: So I actually had, you know, the shorter contracts in Europe, 395 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: so usually they'll have like there's a one plus one 396 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 2: and it'll be like, you know, you can agree on 397 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: it or the team will agree on it. And so 398 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: at the end of that I just I don't know, 399 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: I just didn't connect with the coaching and I knew 400 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: that a lot of the other guys, like Brent Scott, 401 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 2: who really became like a brother to me, they weren't 402 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: looking to bring him back and they were looking to 403 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: bring back Elmer Bennett and some other guys. And so 404 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: at that time, you know, I went home for the 405 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: off season and I told Warren, I said, I don't 406 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: think I want to go back there. And so then 407 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 2: this team, Pontiffanikos in Greece contacted him and they had 408 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 2: watched me play and they had scouted tapes and they 409 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: were like, look, you know, we'd like to sign pat 410 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 2: to a two year deal, and so I was like, okay. 411 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: Well at that time, so I'm back in the summer, 412 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: I start working out for Cleveland, the Calves, the Chicago Bulls. 413 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: And then when I when I finished working out with them, 414 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: both of those teams offered me a minimum deal. And 415 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: I'm back to that same situation like with the Knicks. 416 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I 417 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: can take this now, or I can take even bigger 418 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 2: opportunities with bigger financial I guess contracts then what would 419 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: have been offered for these minimum deals. So then I 420 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 2: went and I signed a two year deal with Pontaikos. 421 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: Now, the only thing about signing Greece is people think 422 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: you're only going to get half your money, right. The 423 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: old story in Greece is guys are making half what 424 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: they tell you and they only get half of that 425 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: actually into their bank account. What's the reality now, you 426 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: played on the biggest club in Greece, what was that? Like? 427 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: I'm fortunate enough that my home, my contracts with Warren. 428 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: You know, I'd see the gentleman's side of Warren, I said, 429 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: but there was a bulldog behind the business side of him. 430 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: And I never lost one dollar with any of the 431 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: teams I played with, So you know, I get the 432 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: Pontonikos and two brothers own the team, and they also 433 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: own a very large pharmaceutical company. Me so the budget 434 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: for the whole team was so large that they would 435 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: delay monthly payments, you know, because there was so much 436 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 2: They were like, you know, trying to make as much 437 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: as they can on interest or wherever they had invested 438 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: their money. So there was times where I'd sit there 439 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: and I'd be like, look, you know this is very awkward, 440 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: but you know there's there's money that you know, we've 441 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: signed a contract for and uh So then I would 442 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: go like another two months and I remember I've gone 443 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: up to our coach, Coacho Bradovic, and I just started 444 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: creating a kind of disillusion that I had businesses and 445 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: people that were counting on me back home. I SA know, 446 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 2: I've got a business back home, and there are people 447 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: that I'm paying, and I got to make sure that 448 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: keeps going. So I might have to fly back during 449 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: the season to take care of us, to figure out 450 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 2: what assets we're going to like, you know, change over 451 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 2: so I can pay these people. 452 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: And remarkably got paid and remarkably. 453 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that these two little guys come into the 454 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 2: to the locker room, and all the Greek nationals they're 455 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: all terrified of them. So these two little guys are 456 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: going around there just going you have a claim? Do 457 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: you have a claim? Do the And I was like, 458 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: I love to claim, you know, I just I just 459 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: know that I have an agreement. You know, we made 460 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: an agreement. And they're just looking at me like why 461 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 2: is this one guy not afraid of us? And I'm like, 462 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: you know, the reality is is you know, there's basketball everywhere, 463 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: so if you want to break the contract, we know 464 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: we can go somewhere else. So then after one game, 465 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: I'm we've we win a game, and I'm coming out 466 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: the tunnel and these two guys they're way up at 467 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: the top. They practically have two thrones sitting there watching 468 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: the games. And as I'm walking through the tunnel just 469 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 2: underneath them, they stop and they're like book, book, and 470 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: I look up at them and they're like, we sent 471 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: the money. And I was like, okay, thank you. You know, 472 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: I just walked into the locker room like, you know, awkward, 473 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: but I guess it's just the way it's done. 474 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: How'd you play? 475 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 2: So that first year I got in there, I was 476 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 2: I was the understudy to Dino Roger, and that first 477 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: coach that I had there, he was Dino's best friend, 478 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: and it was it was the most awkward situation because 479 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: you're coming from college. Now you have one experience in 480 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 2: Spain where everybody's treated the same. But Dino was the exception. 481 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 2: Dina would he says he was the best friend. He 482 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: didn't come to the training camp the same as us. 483 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: His girlfriend shows up at the training camp and stays 484 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: with him before games. The experience was extremely militant, so 485 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: they wanted us like all together at a hotel, taking 486 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: a nap, eating our meal before even home games. So 487 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: after the meal, when we'd all have to go to 488 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: sleep and go to our rooms, Dina would eat his 489 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: meal and he would just walk out into the parking 490 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 2: lant a lot and just start to walk away. And 491 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: so one day I was like, well, you know, my 492 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: wife is sitting at home. I think I'm just gonna 493 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: I can go take a rest at my house. So 494 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 2: I start walking out and the assistant coach comes out 495 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: to me and I'm just standing next to Dino and 496 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: we're both kind of walking to our cars, and he's like, Pat, pet, 497 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: where are you going? And they said, uh, I'm just 498 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: looking over at Dina. I said, I think I'm just 499 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 2: going to take a rest at home before the game. 500 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: And he's like, no, no, it's better that you you 501 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 2: come over here and stay in the hotel. And I 502 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: keep looking over at Dina, and Dino gives me this 503 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: as half smirk, like, hey, the rules don't apply to me, 504 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: they apply to you. And so I was like, you know, 505 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: in the best interest of not starting an argument, I 506 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: just walked back in and just followed suit. And again 507 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 2: it goes back into you know, like I think most 508 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: people who've played in Europe they realize like when you 509 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: get there, you're slowly being hypnotized into a culture. And 510 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: then before long, it's like you're just giving up your thoughts. 511 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: You're just like, Okay, this is what we do and 512 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: how we do it. And every year, Doug, every year 513 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: I had left in those nine years, as soon as 514 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: I got on the flight to leave, I would sit 515 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 2: there like shaking my head, like, oh my god. They 516 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: had a total hypnosis over me about what to think, 517 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 2: what to where, you know, what I was supposed to do. 518 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: And then you'd finally be freed of it because you 519 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: get you're allowed to think for yourself. And that's one 520 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: of the things that I recognized that, you know, European 521 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 2: mentality with the coaching and the whole idea of team 522 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: is extremely militant. 523 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: It really, it really is the next year you got 524 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: to start, right, do you know what? Do you retire? 525 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: So yeah, no, So Dino then went over to our 526 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: rival team, to Olympiakos. He got another big, bigger contract, 527 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: so he ends up leaving big news inside the newspapers. 528 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 2: We signed a new coach. We didn't go as far 529 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: as we wanted in the European tournament, but we did 530 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 2: win the Greek League that year. So the next year 531 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: they bring in Zelko Abradovich and around that time if 532 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 2: you remember, you know, kind of in the world of basketball. 533 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: So it's around two thousand. Now, this is when Yugoslavian 534 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: coaches are really the pinnacle of thoughts of how to 535 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: produce the best basketball teams. So a lot of what 536 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 2: they were producing as far as like going on, like 537 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: we used to go to these training space in big guards. 538 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 2: They like big guards, good guard, Well, the point guard. 539 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 2: The point guard was broken down. It was like a science, 540 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: and I felt I almost felt bad for every point 541 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: guard we had because that's where our coach was. He 542 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: was he was he was a point guard in the past. 543 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: So everything they would do was just righteously told no, 544 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: you stop right here, and it's two dribbles, not four. 545 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: You know, you go over here and you make the 546 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 2: fake this way with your the bawl over your head 547 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 2: like this, and you do this and this is the 548 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 2: speed you do. So everything was broken down to this 549 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: exact ideal model. So when Obradovich came in, he changed 550 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: the whole system and he started challenging every every one 551 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: of our players. So then he also brought in at 552 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: the time Zelko Rebracha and so Zelko had just won 553 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: the Italian League and so when he came in, he 554 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: was the starting center, so he was you know, at 555 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: that time, we had Dan Bodi Roga and uh Zelko 556 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: uh Rebrecha came in and those guys were you know, 557 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: like at the time we were playing for the national team. 558 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: And this is what I was sharing about the USA team. 559 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: This is around the time that there was a huge 560 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: disruption in any type of international basketball, you know where 561 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: you know, from like two thousand and two thousand and one, 562 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: these guys were, you know, they were winning gold medals. 563 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: They were taking out our US station team. And that's 564 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: right around the time that they you know, they kind 565 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 2: of tapped USA tapped out and said, look, we got 566 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,959 Speaker 2: to rethink this how we're building teams. And they got 567 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: Mike Krzewsky involved. 568 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: It's interesting. 569 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 3: So my. 570 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: First pro experience I was with Inner Performances, right, So 571 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: they were the other big, big agency overseas, and in 572 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: two thousand we had a yugoslaviing coach and the plan 573 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: was because I could get Israeli citizenship, I'd be a 574 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: Bozeman B. Right, you were a Boseman as Bozman B. 575 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: But I remember what I remember is I go to 576 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: training camp and we have. The other point guard is 577 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: he mister Jennings who's like five eight, five nine but 578 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: unbelievable score, played in the NBA East Tennessee State, like 579 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: unbelievable score. And he's kind of an old head, right, 580 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: probably thirty at the time. And so I'm the backup 581 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: point guard. But and because I'm a I would have 582 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: been in Israeli Like, okay, if I it fits. But 583 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: the only like, the only thing you could do to 584 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: overcome because we had a yugoslavin coach, the only thing 585 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: you could do to overcome the fact that you're small 586 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: is you had to play the NBA and be able 587 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: to just go get buckets, right, Otherwise, if you weren't 588 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: six or five or above, you couldn't be a playmaker, 589 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: couldna be a point guard. Right. So this guy I'm 590 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: telling you, like in training camp, like he hated me. 591 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: And what's crazy is like I played mostly the way 592 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: that they'd want to play, but I was just small, 593 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, just small, and but it was it was 594 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: amazing on how they truly believe like that there are 595 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: specific passes, a number of dribbles, a way to enter 596 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: the offense, a way to cut, like I mean as 597 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: you played out like specific, this is the only way 598 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: to do it. I'm like, okay, yeah it was. It 599 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: was very very confusing to me. But at that time, okay, 600 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: so now you've been in Greece for a couple of years, 601 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: right you started to I think was it when you 602 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: went back to Spain that you established yourself as probably 603 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, the premiere or one of the two or 604 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: three premiere centers in Europe. What year do you think 605 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: that was the peak? Well? 606 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: I think so I finished Pontathonikos and I went to 607 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: a smaller team, Marousied and that's when I got my 608 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: opportunity to just to showcase what I could do. And 609 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 2: so I had a good year. And so coming out 610 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: of that, you know, a lot of people come up 611 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 2: to me. I remember we actually even played Pontathonikos in 612 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: our home gym and we beat them, and I hear 613 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 2: from one of my good friends, Johnny Rodd that the 614 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: two owners are yelling at the coaching staff like why 615 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: do we ever get rid of him? You know? And 616 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: so after that, I get a phone call from my 617 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: agent after that year that I played so well, and 618 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: he's like, hey, that first team wants to pick you up. 619 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: You know the team in Spain, Talos Saramico. So I'm 620 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: like really, He's like, yeah, they've been looking to get 621 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: you back for years, and I said okay. So then 622 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: they give me an offer. It's the largest offer that 623 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: I've ever ever had, and I'm like holy shit. So 624 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: I said, well, I've heard a little bit about this coach, 625 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: so let me do some research with Elan Bennett. So 626 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: I call Elmer and Elmer's like, Pat, you and this 627 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: guy will not mix. And I'm like, okay, all right. 628 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: So I called back my agent. I'm like, I don't 629 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: think it's going to work. He's like, okay, you sure, 630 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 2: and I'm like yeah, he's a lot of money. I said, no, 631 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: I understand. And now at that time, my wife and 632 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: I we just had newborn twins. They're premature, they had 633 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 2: heart monitors on them, and so now I'm not just 634 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: looking out for myself my wife. Now I'm looking out 635 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: for an environment that's gonna help me to be, you know, 636 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: a better father and not have a bunch of stuff 637 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: getting my get in my head. So anyways, he calls 638 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: me back like ten minutes later, he's at the upt 639 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: the offer. So now it's even more so. Now I'm thinking, Okay, 640 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: money's going to solve everything. So I go over sign 641 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: a deal, go in. I said, one thing I got 642 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: to get Now, this is at the point where I 643 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: played five years and money is really you know, even 644 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: though this is a great deal, money is not the ultimate. 645 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 2: Because I realized I've just missed my brothers and sisters 646 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: have missed weddings. I missed you know, I missed funerals. 647 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: And I was like, you know what, my family time 648 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: is going at the wayside here for all of this 649 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: stuff because you know, when I get over there, it's 650 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 2: so militant you're not allowed to leave anywhere you're. 651 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: It that it's like for people who don't understand, like 652 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: you end up missing it's a family like sports on 653 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: TV regular You know, on one hand, right, very profitable 654 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: life and in terms of basketball, and I'm guessing what 655 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: two practices a day everywhere you went correct, yep to 656 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: two practice to day. So it is a job. It 657 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: is a lot of work, but oftentimes like it's basketball, 658 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: it's not. But the all the things you're missing, like 659 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: there's a value, there's a tangible value to that, and 660 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: you can't something goes wrong or somebody needs help. You 661 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: can't hop on a flight and fly from Spain, or 662 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: agrees to just be home for a couple of days. 663 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: Like what you're in, you're in, you're out, you're at. 664 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And so I asked to go to 665 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: my brother's wedding. So my brother was getting married in 666 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: Ireland during the preseason, and I said, you know, I'd 667 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: like to get you know, five days off to get 668 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: up there, go go be around my family. So the 669 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: owner of the the president of the team, Kerrie Hite, 670 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 2: he says, okay, So we signed a deal. Long story short, 671 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 2: didn't work out with the coach. She was like, no, 672 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: you got you got an option. You can either go 673 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: to your brother's wedding and be off this team, or 674 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: or you can stay with us. So I shook his hand, 675 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: I said, well, good luck to you this year. And 676 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: everybody in the town hated. They were like, oh, we 677 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: don't have a center now, like this is unbelievable. So 678 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: then you went to Reale right, No, So that I 679 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 2: get a call from my brother's wedding. I'm sitting there 680 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 2: and I'm leaving at one am. This is the coach. 681 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 2: He took my five days, and they agree. They said, okay, 682 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 2: you know, we'll let you go for two days. So 683 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: I go to my brother's wedding and I'm flying back 684 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: to Spain and someone in the lobby comes out and says, hey, 685 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 2: there's somebody from the Orlando Magic on the phone, and 686 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: so I get on the phone and this gentleman tells 687 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 2: me one of their scouts. He's like, look, Stephen Hunter 688 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: just tore his acl I think that you could make 689 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 2: the team. And he's like, how's Spain going? And I'm 690 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: like it's not going well. You know, I'm ready to 691 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: give everything back. So anyways, I go and I come back. 692 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: I leave taus Aamica and I make the Orlando Magic. 693 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 2: And I remember it was like everyone's like, you know, 694 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 2: where'd this guy come from. I'm like, hey, you know, 695 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 2: I've been in America up for a long time, you know. 696 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: And they're like, you know, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, like, 697 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: where where did this dude come from? And I'm like, 698 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: I've just been playing over seas for five years. So 699 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: then just getting my name back into the mix, you know. 700 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 2: I go in and I'm the starting center for like 701 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 2: the first nine or ten games. And you know, I 702 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: think that that kind of charged that. Okay, you know 703 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: this guy, he is an NBA caliber player. And then 704 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: all of a sudden it became to the point where 705 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 2: when I went back after that year, another just a 706 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: little tangent is you know. Doc asked me at the 707 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: end of the year, you know, would you like to 708 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: come back? And I said, Doc, I'm taking a huge 709 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: pay cut coming back here. This season didn't go the 710 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 2: way I would have liked. I think that my best 711 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 2: playing style is to play with European teams. And he understood, 712 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 2: so he said thank you for the opportunity. And that's 713 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: when I went back, and of course, like a year later, 714 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: I'm playing for Real Madrid and that's I think that's 715 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 2: where the Phoenix Suns then started to realize, like, look 716 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 2: that this guy can play. 717 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So for people who don't know, we mentioned the 718 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: two practices a day, Okay, paint the picture of the differences. 719 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,439 Speaker 1: Let's start with Morus, where you had that great year. 720 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 1: What was their facilities like, they have a practice gym, 721 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: they have a regular renaw what was it all like? 722 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 2: Very small, It's probably could fit a thousand people, smaller 723 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: than a high school. Gym. The there's two staircases going 724 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: one would go into the locker room, an unfinished locker room. 725 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 2: It was just a big concrete slab cell with like 726 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: a picket hose and everyone's sharing a shower. And then 727 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: on the other side of the basement there was a 728 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: weight room that would you know, had like two dumbbells 729 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 2: and you know, just a couple of kettle bells. So 730 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 2: that was that was that year. But it was a 731 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: great family experience, even though you knew that it didn't 732 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 2: have you know, the most high tech and best equipment. 733 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of people around it. 734 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: There was a very good owner who cared a lot 735 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: about you know, the team and the guy and putting 736 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 2: together the best team that he could environment. So coming 737 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 2: from there and then and then coming over and then 738 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 2: you're walking into you know, the Orlando Magic practice facility 739 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: where I'm getting a retina scan to get in the 740 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 2: door to doing something like sci fi thing with my hand. 741 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 2: They can fingerprint it like two or three times. So 742 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: then there's like a laser beam that goes by my 743 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 2: hand to let me into the practice facility, you know, 744 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 2: with the gate. And then you get in there and 745 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: there's a bunch of range Rovers in Lamborghinis sitting in 746 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: the parking lot. It's a totally different experience. 747 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm looking at Mercy's jim pretty well. 748 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: It says it's seats seventeen hundred people. It does have 749 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: stands on the side there and I and this is 750 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: interesting because you played later in Russian Hinky Himty when 751 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: I played Tiny Gym and then we played I don't 752 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: know if mineral Water Mineral Buddha was in the league 753 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: when you played, but they literally had stands behind the basket, 754 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: a little bit behind the benches, and then they had 755 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: like a track that people were like four or five 756 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 1: deepont and then a wall on the other side. I 757 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: was like, how do they make any money on this deal? 758 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: Like how does this even work? Like such bullshit? It 759 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: was amazing. 760 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it's the same business model as 761 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 2: far as the owner's investment. 762 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: It's all a mafia thing where they do. 763 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 2: Something, but it's no way. I mean, they're not even 764 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 2: making that much money. Like can you think about the 765 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 2: NBA with just the merchandise, you know, the ecosystem that 766 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 2: they have with merchandise, tickets, fan experience everything. I think 767 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 2: that most of Europe is just on the television rights alone, 768 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 2: you know, and I think that that's what they have. 769 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: And it's funny because you see such a difference in 770 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 2: the fans and of course the business owners that you know, 771 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 2: when you're in the when you're in the NBA, you 772 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 2: see all this sensationalism. Everything is just so heightened about 773 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 2: the experience and everything that's going on. When you get 774 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 2: to Europe, it's just very cut and dry. This is 775 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 2: what here for. You know, we're not here for all 776 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: these little frills and this and that. You're not here 777 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 2: to like sign jerseys and sign or sell any jerseys 778 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 2: or hats or anything like that. So it's it's it's 779 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 2: a very different world. 780 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're you're with the Orlando Magic. You played 781 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: my guy Pat Garrity, right, ironic, ironical, you're the Irish one. 782 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: He's Irish but from Colorado. But if somebody would have said, hey, 783 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: who's the Irish national player for the Magic, they would put. 784 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: And since then they still do it like someone will 785 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 2: see me and they don't recognize me, and I'll tell me, 786 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 2: you know, my name is Patt had played for the 787 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 2: Magic like, oh, you're the Irish guy. I'm like, yeah, Like, man, 788 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: you used to knock down those threes with that hitch 789 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 2: with your foot. I'm like, that's Pat Garrity. And I 790 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 2: don't even know if you know a lot of that. 791 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: It's like and you know, I don't. I don't look 792 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 2: to fight it. It's just like, you know, if they 793 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 2: if they even realize that, you know, there's another guy 794 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 2: named Pat on the magic, I'm like, that's cool. 795 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: What what was Grant Hill? 796 00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 3: Like? 797 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 2: He was amazing. I remember when when I got there, 798 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 2: he was probably the first person just in the in 799 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 2: the preseason, just playing five on five pickup. He was 800 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 2: the first person that was like, man, you know, like 801 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 2: you can really play. And when someone at that caliber 802 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 2: tells you something, you know, you go home and you 803 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 2: tell your parents, you tell your wife. 804 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 3: You know. 805 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there like it's boosting my confidence. And so 806 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 2: that was that was a really cool thing. And then 807 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 2: as the just before he got hurt, just playing with them, 808 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 2: you know, his court vision and his ability, like I 809 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 2: don't think he was attempting to get everyone the ball, 810 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 2: but him being on the court like I was, I 811 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 2: was getting a lot of points just for him seeing 812 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 2: me cut and drive and running, you know, running the floor. 813 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: So when he got hurt, it was like everything just 814 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 2: completely changed like this, the whole system of the way 815 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 2: the ball moved started to change. And then you know, 816 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 2: of course, then it was it became really more on 817 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady that would get the ball 818 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 2: all the time. But when Grant was there, I remember 819 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 2: I was reading. I was reading a book, like I 820 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: think it was like a Motley Crue book or something, 821 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 2: and it was one of these documentaries had a lot 822 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 2: of just incredible stories, and I remember it just on 823 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 2: the bus. I just finished it and he was like, hey, 824 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: you know, can I read that? I'll make sure. And 825 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what would Grant Hill want to be reading 826 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 2: something about like a heavy metal band? But you know, 827 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 2: he just opened to you know, a lot of conversation. 828 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 2: And I've seen him since he's he's still the same 829 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 2: person's like you can sit there and you can have 830 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 2: a chat about anything and everything, and you know, there's 831 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 2: no ego inside of him. He's just you know, he's 832 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 2: sitting there and he's a very caring individual. 833 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: That was the last year Sean Kemp was in the league. Yeah, 834 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: give me your best Sean Kemp story. 835 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 2: If I do this, this, this podcast might go I 836 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 2: don't know, might go over to someplace you don't want 837 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 2: it to hear. That was my road guy, So Sean 838 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 2: right away, Sean and Darryl Armstrong of myself, we we 839 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 2: got along great, and so like whenever we weren't playing 840 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 2: or we were on the road, you know, we were 841 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 2: the three guys that would go out and get a beer. 842 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 2: And I just remember there was a there was a 843 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 2: road trip where let's just say it was a five 844 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 2: game stretch, and so the first time we get we 845 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 2: pull into whoever it was, let's just say it's Denver, 846 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 2: we go out, we have a few too many. We're 847 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,439 Speaker 2: sitting there the next day after the game, we're showering up. 848 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 2: Sean's probably had twelve points, He's got like nine rebounds, 849 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 2: Darryl's got like eighteen points, like twelve assists, and I'm 850 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 2: sitting there with one point and you know, probably I 851 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 2: fouled out. And then the next game, same thing happens again. 852 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 2: Then by the third game and we're going out, you know, 853 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 2: all the time, they're sitting there like, let's go road dogs. 854 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: This is working When I was like, guys, We're sitting 855 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 2: in the shower and I'm like, guys, I don't know 856 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 2: if this is working out for me, you know, I like, 857 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 2: I know we're going out and having fun, but I'm 858 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 2: just not playing the well. And they're like, don't rule this, perk, 859 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 2: don't rule this. This is good, and I'm like, I 860 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 2: don't think this is good. 861 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: Guys. 862 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 2: We're going out tonight, and I'm like, okay, whatever, And 863 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 2: I just remember like Doc Rivers coming up to me 864 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 2: later and he's like pack Sean and Darryl. You know, 865 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 2: they get after it pretty hard. I know you've got 866 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 2: a good head on your shoulders, like you need to 867 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: look out for them. We're gonna need them. And I'm 868 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 2: like okay, and I'm like, who's looking out for me? 869 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: You know? 870 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Just great, great guys, great memories. You know. Just 871 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 2: it's just funny at that point, because you know, like 872 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 2: with any athlete, you're looking for some sort of consistency 873 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 2: to say, how are we live in our lives that 874 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 2: were able to go out here and still perform, and 875 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 2: their variables were going out with me having a few 876 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 2: beers and then at the end they were sitting there 877 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: comparing stats. But as long as theirs were good and 878 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 2: mine were shit, everything was fine. 879 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: Why Tracey McGrady at that time should have been like 880 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: at his peak right the next year he actually next 881 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: two years he led the league in scoring. Yeah, but 882 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: he didn't win. Okay, didn't win. 883 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 2: Why I'd say, just experience you know again, is you know, 884 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 2: coming from Toronto. Uh, you know, I don't think. I 885 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 2: don't think you can. Ever, how would I say this 886 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 2: in an approach? It's like saying to somebody, I want 887 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 2: you to think of a color you've never thought of before. 888 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's impossible. So how could he think differently 889 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 2: if he's never been all the way to the top 890 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 2: to realize it, Like, you know, in a comparison like 891 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 2: when I went when I was playing with Spain and 892 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 2: we went all the way to the finals. That was 893 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 2: the that was the most success that I've ever experienced. 894 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 2: So everything that was coming in was a new minute, 895 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 2: it was a new ten minutes, it was a new hour. 896 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 2: So I was like, wow, I've never been in this situation. 897 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,240 Speaker 2: When I look back at Tracy, you know, here here's 898 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 2: all this talent. You know, great guy, but you know, leadership, 899 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 2: they say, is lonely. So I think that a lot 900 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 2: of times he was leading just by his physical example, 901 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,760 Speaker 2: But was it doing enough, you know outside the court, 902 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 2: you know, was he putting enough demand on us and 903 00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 2: what we were doing, because I remember I went through 904 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 2: a whole come of finest thing again where I just sank, 905 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 2: and I remember he just kept coming up to me 906 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 2: like as if it was you know, some sort of 907 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: valuable counseling. He's like, Pat, you're fucking good enough, Let's go, 908 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 2: and I'll just be like okay, you know, and that 909 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 2: would be it. So I think going into that year, 910 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,839 Speaker 2: you know, we're in the playoffs, you know, we're up 911 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 2: against Detroit, and then you know, he communicates something into 912 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,879 Speaker 2: the newspaper about how easily we're rolling through Detroit. Woke 913 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 2: them up. So again as there's there's another moment where 914 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 2: I'm sure he said, I'll never do that again, you know. 915 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,359 Speaker 2: And I think that a lot of a lot of 916 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 2: what the magic organization and I'm not trying to bash them, 917 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 2: but a lot of what the magic organization is it 918 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 2: looks like guesswork at times. How do we come back 919 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 2: and start winning? How do we get to that caliber, 920 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 2: and they're building it around Tracy and they've got the 921 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 2: the injury with Grant. So I think, you know, a 922 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 2: guy like me at the starting center, it's like everyone's like, 923 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 2: who the hell is that guy? So I think that 924 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 2: even the roster at the time was not going to 925 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 2: be one that was going to support him to go far, 926 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 2: you know, in that year? 927 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: What was Ben Wallace like to guard? 928 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 2: Uh? He's a beast, you know. I think there's a 929 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 2: lot of I think there's a lot of guys that 930 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 2: fit the bill as far as you know the size. Uh, 931 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 2: there's there's stats all that, but here's this unorthodox six 932 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 2: 's eight guy playing center, which is hulk strength and 933 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 2: just his hard hat, you know, going out. 934 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: And so. 935 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 2: I just remember that, you know, he was good friends 936 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 2: with Darryl Armstrong, so I would get a lot of 937 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 2: communication of like what he was thinking during the playoffs 938 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 2: and what he was saying. And I just remember thinking that, 939 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 2: you know, this guy is you know, somebody that I 940 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 2: would love to find out what he's doing and how 941 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 2: he's you know, how he's you know, figuring out how 942 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 2: I get these extra rebounds. You know, what are what 943 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 2: are the techniques that he's using but uh, just just 944 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:57,439 Speaker 2: a beast at that time. 945 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: Doc obously he catches a lot of shit because how 946 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,440 Speaker 1: many of his teams have been up three games to one? 947 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: This was like the first This was the first one. Right, 948 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: you have three games one? You meant to it? What 949 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: Tracy like? You lived it? How much how much of 950 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: the fault of blame does Doc deserve? 951 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 2: I could say that I don't know every conversation he 952 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 2: was having behind the scenes with players. I think that, 953 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 2: of course, you know, you're you're managing ego when you're 954 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 2: an NBA coach, you're also putting together you know, the 955 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 2: best rotations that you can. You're looking at, of course, 956 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 2: everything that you're doing and is it working. So at 957 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,920 Speaker 2: that time it was working. But I do know this 958 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,799 Speaker 2: when we went into that that last game. Doc's a 959 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 2: great motivator. But I don't know where the hell he 960 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 2: got his last motivational speech from, because it was something 961 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 2: about how Coca Cola is the number one selling soda 962 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,320 Speaker 2: and it's it puts millions of dollars into its marketing. 963 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 2: And then he's comparing Pepsi and Pepsi does this and 964 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 2: Coke does this, and I'll tell you what by the 965 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 2: end of the damn motivational speech, I think we're all 966 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 2: thirsty for a soda. 967 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: You know. 968 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 2: It was like I woked over at Darrel Armstrong and 969 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 2: I was like, what the hell did that all mean? 970 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 2: And Darrel's just just be ready tonight, and I was like, okay, 971 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 2: you know, we go off and we lose the game. 972 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 2: But for that to be his first one, I did 973 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 2: hear that and rightfully so I'll own this. You know 974 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,360 Speaker 2: again is he said, if you look back on those rosters, 975 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 2: especially the first one, you know, I don't even know 976 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 2: if we should have been in the playoffs. So he 977 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 2: put a lot of work into the regular season, and 978 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 2: I remember his door was always open, you know. He 979 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 2: communicated to me all the time. You know, we had 980 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 2: just lost Horace Grant in the beginning the beginning of 981 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 2: the season with you know, a confrontation that happened on 982 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 2: one of our plane rides. And when Horace was left 983 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,719 Speaker 2: from the team. The next day, Doc was talking to 984 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 2: me about I'm going to start you. I believe in you. 985 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 2: I think he can do this, and again is it 986 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I've never had a coach like this 987 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 2: at this level. That's talking to me about belief and 988 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 2: allowing me to do, you know, whatever I could do 989 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,040 Speaker 2: on the floor. But again as I think that he's 990 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 2: learned a lot from it. 991 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: No, it's interesting you point out right, uh, that that 992 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: roster if you had a Horace Grant and you have 993 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,120 Speaker 1: Grant Hill, well, now that's much different roster than the 994 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: one that ended up the season where you have you know, 995 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,399 Speaker 1: Gordon Geirchik, Drew Drew Gooden who's super young at the time, 996 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,799 Speaker 1: Pat Garrity, Darrel Armstrong and Tracy Gray. That's that's the 997 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,840 Speaker 1: starting lineup, you know, it's the starting lamp in that 998 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: in that last game. What happened? What gimme what happened? 999 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,240 Speaker 1: What happened with with Horace and what was the confrontation? Oh? 1000 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 2: Man, so we're coming in from I think we're out 1001 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 2: west and we're getting on the plane and uh, Horace 1002 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 2: is one of the last to get on. So so 1003 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 2: i'm I would sit to the right side of the 1004 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 2: plane and Sean Kemp was in front of me. I 1005 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 2: can't remember, Oh, Horace would have been behind me, and 1006 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 2: then just to my left there's a long couch and 1007 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 2: of course we all know that's Tracy's couch like he's 1008 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 2: gonna sleep, he's gonna get rest. And so just in 1009 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:16,319 Speaker 2: front of him there's the other rookie, Ryan from Notre Dame. 1010 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,200 Speaker 2: So so we're sitting there and Horace, yeah, Ryan Humphreys. 1011 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 2: They had a loss there for his name, so Ryan said. 1012 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 2: So then Horace gets on and he's talking to shelling 1013 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,359 Speaker 2: a little bit and this and the other, and next 1014 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:35,840 Speaker 2: thing you know, Tracy says something to him to Horace 1015 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 2: about something he's been saying, and he's like, you know, 1016 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,919 Speaker 2: I heard you. You know you've been sharing something about 1017 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 2: you know, leadership of the team and this and the other. 1018 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,279 Speaker 2: And Horace looks over at Tracy and he gets so 1019 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 2: emotional he starts stuttering, and next thing you know, he's 1020 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,959 Speaker 2: just like no, no, no, no, that's not me. And again, 1021 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,520 Speaker 2: I won't get into all the day cussing he did, 1022 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 2: but he was saying, you know, Doc was behind some 1023 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 2: of this. So then he turns his back towards the 1024 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 2: back of the planes and to the front and he's 1025 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,320 Speaker 2: talking to Tracy and Darrel Armstrong gets up and Seawan's 1026 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 2: talking about They're like cool it, calm down, this and 1027 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 2: the other. The next thing, you know, Doc Rivers is 1028 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,440 Speaker 2: right behind Horace As. He's on this just rant about, 1029 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 2: you know, coasing out Doc, and I'm sitting there, I 1030 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 2: got I got front row seats. Man, I'm sitting there. 1031 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 2: Connor McGregor like, I'm just like, holy shit. And I 1032 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 2: look over and Ryan Humphrey's got his head buried in 1033 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 2: a magazine. I'm like, now, dude, you want to watch 1034 00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 2: all of this, you know, So I'm watching this, and uh, 1035 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 2: I mean, Doc is a big man, so he's like, hey, 1036 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 2: h He says, a horse, you got something to say 1037 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 2: to me? And horse turns around and he's looking right 1038 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,120 Speaker 2: down in his face and he's like yeah. And they 1039 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,320 Speaker 2: start going at it right and then Sean and myself 1040 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 2: and Tracy we're all gettingup. We're splitting them apart. Nothing 1041 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:58,400 Speaker 2: but no swings were thrown split them up. And then 1042 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,799 Speaker 2: we're all like, holy shit, to that just happened. You know, 1043 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 2: that just happened. And then we get off the plane, 1044 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 2: you know, and everyone's just getting out. And then the 1045 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 2: next day, you know, they teld me that Horas has 1046 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 2: been released from the team, and that's this. 1047 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: And this this is you coming back from Europe where 1048 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:13,800 Speaker 1: it's a dictatorship. 1049 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:19,759 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, so I'm like, this is insane. Yes, yeah, 1050 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,440 Speaker 2: it was. It was a totally new experience because you 1051 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,279 Speaker 2: realize that, you know, we're all grown ass men and 1052 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 2: uh you know when I mean again, just like in 1053 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,759 Speaker 2: any family, I still believe like with any culture, any community, 1054 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 2: any group, any tribe, you have to go through adversity, 1055 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 2: and adversity on the other side of it will start 1056 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 2: to build or forge something else. And so that's where 1057 00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 2: the adversity was starting in the very beginning of that season. 1058 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,720 Speaker 2: And there was some communication patterns that I was noticing 1059 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,360 Speaker 2: as a trend, like going, Okay, something is happening here 1060 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,880 Speaker 2: because someone's not taking the reins, or someone's complaining about 1061 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,840 Speaker 2: their position and they're they're starting to point fingers. 1062 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,399 Speaker 1: All right, that's it for part two of my talk 1063 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: with pepperg. Part three, we'll get you to the Phoenix 1064 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:11,799 Speaker 1: Suns experience and what life is like for him after basketball. 1065 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: What's it like to shut it down, to know that 1066 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,280 Speaker 1: you're done and then to kind of put your American 1067 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,640 Speaker 1: life sort of back together and figure out what you 1068 00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 1: want to do next. A collection of the thoughts and stories, 1069 00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,400 Speaker 1: and I think you'll be interested to hear what it 1070 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,799 Speaker 1: was like to play in Phoenix when he had to 1071 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,800 Speaker 1: play in the playoffs after a gigantic suspension of Boris 1072 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,359 Speaker 1: Dial and Amari Stottam I remember that when they're playing 1073 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 1: the San Antonio Spurs in the NBA playoffs. Yeah, it 1074 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 1: was Pepper. What went so wrong for him in that game? 1075 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,840 Speaker 1: You'll find out on Part three. In the meantime, Reminded 1076 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: of Doug Otleib Show is daily three to five Eastern time, 1077 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,080 Speaker 1: noon to too Pacific. We also have the daily podcast 1078 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 1: which is Uncensored, Unfiltered you Love. It's called in the Bonus. 1079 00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,800 Speaker 1: That's on the iHeartRadio app. Just download wherever you download. 1080 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,080 Speaker 1: Pod guests in the Bonus or the Doug Gottlieb Show. 1081 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening on Doug Gottlieb. This 1082 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 1: is all ball 1083 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:24,120 Speaker 3: H