Speaker 1: When I've done work in Los Angeles and New York,
Speaker 1: and I've never lived in either of those cities, but
Speaker 1: I spent a good amount of time in them getting
Speaker 1: to work. When people found out that I was based
Speaker 1: in Chicago, they were always kind of gobsmacked. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: why did they fly your dumbass in here when there's
Speaker 1: there's so many talented actors here. So there was always
Speaker 1: like a certain amount of, you know, low key glee
Speaker 1: that I had kind of beat the odds just by
Speaker 1: getting a seat at the table from Chicago. But I
Speaker 1: also felt like a representative of what the city has
Speaker 1: to offer. Chicago is lousy with incredibly talented actors. Hi,
Speaker 1: my name is John Hogan Acker, and I'm just a
Speaker 1: guy doing acting stuff.
Speaker 2: Hi, everybody, I'm so excited to welcome you all to
Speaker 2: this week's episode of Off the Beat. I am your host,
Speaker 2: as always, Brian Baumgartner, and I'm also very excited to
Speaker 2: announce that the incredible John Hoganacher is joining us today.
Speaker 2: Just like me, John has an extensive theater background, working
Speaker 2: on productions like Anthony and Cleopatra, Hamlet, and one of
Speaker 2: my dark dark favorites, Killer Joe. He of course, didn't
Speaker 2: stop at theater. Since those good old days, he has
Speaker 2: taken the film and television world by storm, jumping into
Speaker 2: some very intense and very impressive roles on shows like
Speaker 2: Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan, Dope, Sick, and Waco The Aftermath.
Speaker 2: Now he is here to go deep into his life
Speaker 2: and his career from his commercial days. Dilly Dilly, anyone
Speaker 2: to working on Jack Ryan with some guy named John Krasinski.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you got I have heard of him.
Speaker 2: I definitely haven't. All jokes aside, this is a great conversation.
Speaker 2: So without further idea, John Hoganaker, everybody.
Speaker 1: Bubble and squeak. I love it.
Speaker 3: Bubble and squeak. I know, bubble and squeak.
Speaker 2: I cook, get every mole left over from the night before.
Speaker 3: What's up, John, hey man?
Speaker 1: How you doing.
Speaker 3: I'm great. How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm not wearing the headphones. We tried to figure the
Speaker 1: whole thing out, and of course it all fell apart.
Speaker 1: The wheels came off to trolley at the last minute.
Speaker 1: So here we are.
Speaker 3: Listen.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what that's like every every day, every
Speaker 2: day of my life.
Speaker 3: It's so nice to talk to you.
Speaker 2: I really am such a big fan of yours and
Speaker 2: what you have been doing here man be hanging out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we have a lot of things in common. Some are
Speaker 2: mostly manufactured by me, but we do have a lot
Speaker 2: in common. You grew up, I understand in the South,
Speaker 2: right in Charlotte.
Speaker 1: I sure did. In fact, I'm actually in the South now.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're right. So you're in the South right now?
Speaker 3: You live in the South.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina, and a lot of
Speaker 1: family in the mountains. So I was coming up here
Speaker 1: a lot as a kid, and we moved back to
Speaker 1: the Asheville area during the pandemic.
Speaker 3: Really, yeah, you do you love it? Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, I love it so much. A lot
Speaker 1: of stuff that I needed to kind of take care of. You,
Speaker 1: needed to be closer to family, and a lot of
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the way you're your
Speaker 1: experience of this, this job being an actor is but
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of stuff for me comes
Speaker 1: down to taping. Anyway. When I was in Chicago, a
Speaker 1: lot of the jobs that I was winning or that
Speaker 1: were filming around the country were from tapes. And you know,
Speaker 1: when we got deep into the belly of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: my wife and I were kind of like, I went,
Speaker 1: let me back up. I went to do Dope sic
Speaker 1: which filmed in Richmond, and my wife and the kids
Speaker 1: came out for the month of March and we spent
Speaker 1: the whole and you know, in the South, it's like
Speaker 1: the flowers are on the trees in March, it's like
Speaker 1: spring everything, you know, the birds are singing. And then uh,
Speaker 1: we finished and she went back home and the same
Speaker 1: two feet of snow was on the ground that was
Speaker 1: there when she left in Chicago, and it was, you know,
Speaker 1: going to be winter for another couple of months. And
Speaker 1: she smummed about it. And I was like, well, what
Speaker 1: if we just went ahead? And what if we just
Speaker 1: went ahead and did it? Made the move? So it has.
Speaker 1: It's been wonderful, wonderful change of pace. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a gentler rhythm. I feel like when I travel, like
Speaker 1: I live in a yoga studio and I take that
Speaker 1: yoga studio with me. People in New York are like, dude,
Speaker 1: you're so chill.
Speaker 3: It is a beautiful area.
Speaker 2: There's a little town called Greenville, South Carolina, which is
Speaker 2: not overly far from you, which I had relatives that
Speaker 2: lived in green I was in Atlanta and I had
Speaker 2: relatives that lived in Greenville. When I was a kid,
Speaker 2: Greenville was nothing. I'm just gonna see, I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: say it straight out. And now it is a booming,
Speaker 2: mid size, mid city metropolis with great food and places
Speaker 2: to go and river walks and it's beautiful.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: Greenville has that Asheville does not have is a costco.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the little thing right we want you.
Speaker 1: I want six worlds of toilet paper. I'm going to Greenville.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: Well, And to finish this off, yet another weird connection.
Speaker 2: I am lying tomorrow this is this is not a joke,
Speaker 2: and this was not playing. I am flying tomorrow morning
Speaker 2: to Chicago. I had several weeks ago been in Wyoming
Speaker 2: and I was like, we're done with the winter. I
Speaker 2: packed up all my winter coats, I packed up. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm done with the winter. I'm flying. It's we're in
Speaker 2: late April here, We're definitively in late April, and I'm
Speaker 2: flying to Chicago tomorrow. The high is going to be
Speaker 2: forty on Saturday and Sunday. I can't even believe that
Speaker 2: this is happening. I mean, I'm gonna have a great time,
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, but yes I am.
Speaker 3: I can't believe it.
Speaker 1: You're getting on that plane under your own steam, brind
Speaker 1: So you did it to yourself and no, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: you know the thing on One of the things that
Speaker 1: I'm proud of myself for is that I every time
Speaker 1: the weather's beautiful here in Asheville. I don't take like
Speaker 1: a screenshot of the weather app and send it to
Speaker 1: my friends in Chicago, but I fight. That's a daily
Speaker 1: that's a daily battle that I'm always fighting, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: you know the dogwood trees are blooming right now, beautiful
Speaker 1: or so it's going to be like rhododendrons and mountain
Speaker 1: laurels and yeah, it's just a lovely part of the world.
Speaker 3: Do you golf?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know what. I've been a golfer my
Speaker 1: entire life, but you would not know it.
Speaker 2: Watching There are great courses. I play a lot of golf.
Speaker 2: I it's funny when I get homesick for the South.
Speaker 2: Is the masters being from Georgia, And it's because of
Speaker 2: what you're talking about it's the azaleas. They got it
Speaker 2: time perfectly, man, the beginning of April, the azaleas come
Speaker 2: out the dogwoods and I'm like.
Speaker 3: Oh, man, yeah, that is that is really beautiful.
Speaker 2: Enough about weather. Well, so another thing you and I
Speaker 2: have in common. You did the forensics thing. I state
Speaker 2: and district champion of I was I I was stay
Speaker 2: champion there two three four years or something there in Georgia.
Speaker 2: Is that where you started performing or did you have
Speaker 2: an interest in it and that's what brought you to that?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 1: You know I did. So. My dad did commercials in Charlotte.
Speaker 1: He was a life insurance and he did you know,
Speaker 1: voiceover and television commercials, and he was a real like
Speaker 1: funny guy. He was a life of the party. And
Speaker 1: you know, so I looked up to him and I
Speaker 1: wanted to emulate him. So I got in trouble all
Speaker 1: the time in school. I was a class clown. And
Speaker 1: when I was in like fifth and sixth grade, I
Speaker 1: started doing plays at the children's theater in Charlotte, and
Speaker 1: then I got braces. And I had braces for a
Speaker 1: few years and my dad was like, well, there's no
Speaker 1: market for a child with braces, So then around early
Speaker 1: high school. I think I got into debate around like
Speaker 1: probably sophomore year, because at that point we still had
Speaker 1: Junior high, you know, which was through nine and then
Speaker 1: you had ten through twelve for high school. And my
Speaker 1: debate coach, I don't know, did you compete in like
Speaker 1: humorous interp and dramatic intermsmatic? That's right, yes, well cool, yeah,
Speaker 1: And for the listeners who don't know what Brian and
Speaker 1: I are talking about, it was like you would basically
Speaker 1: pick a play or it could be a TV show
Speaker 1: or it could be a movie. You would do a
Speaker 1: ten minute cutting and you had to have an introduction
Speaker 1: somewhere in there. You had to basically keep your feet planted,
Speaker 1: but you could play all the characters. And I went
Speaker 1: after Monty Python because I was like, surely everybody wants
Speaker 1: to hear my rendition.
Speaker 3: And debate.
Speaker 1: It's like Monty Python never wins, but knock yourself out, uh,
Speaker 1: And Monty Python did not win for me. Then I
Speaker 1: started doing different plays and had a lot of fun
Speaker 1: with it, and yeah, I got to be it was
Speaker 1: a state champion two times and I was a district
Speaker 1: champion two times, so that was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: But that kind of strengthened the audition muscle, probably more
Speaker 1: than anything else, because then, you know, when I was
Speaker 1: towards the end of high school, kind of on a lark,
Speaker 1: I auditioned for the theater school at DePaul University, and
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't even go for Juilliard because it
Speaker 1: seemed unattainable, was more expensive the audition process, and Chicago seemed,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seemed tamer at the time than
Speaker 1: New York City. I got in, which was very cool.
Speaker 1: The school was a super intense program. Did you do
Speaker 1: like a theater conservatory or anything like that for college?
Speaker 3: I did. I went to SMU in DAWs, Oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, solid school.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the program for us, I don't know. Did you
Speaker 1: guys have a cut program too? At SMU?
Speaker 2: You know, there were no cuts, but people cut themselves.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think we started out with fifteen actors
Speaker 2: and you know, by the end, you know, seven.
Speaker 3: Or eight, Wow, would make it four years? Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was the same same percentage that we lost. They
Speaker 1: brought in seventy some our first year in ninety five.
Speaker 1: Then they cut half of us after the first year.
Speaker 1: They cut the remaining after the second year, and then
Speaker 1: if you made it past the second cut, you were
Speaker 1: in the casting pool for your junior and senior year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so so that the NFL thing, the debate, the
Speaker 1: forensics thing always helped me when it came time to
Speaker 1: get in front of you know, a team of producers
Speaker 1: and a director or something kind of walk in and
Speaker 1: try and own the room, because I've had been doing
Speaker 1: that in front of fellow teenagers for you know, three
Speaker 1: or four years, getting a stink guy from competitors.
Speaker 2: You know, that's interesting. I have never truly, I have
Speaker 2: never made that connection before. But of course you're right,
Speaker 2: because that experience with you know, three judges and some
Speaker 2: other a few other people watching, which does you're exactly right,
Speaker 2: It does mimic that the audition experienced later on there's
Speaker 2: three or four judges. Yeah, that's very interesting, John, I'd
Speaker 2: never really thought about that before. But the advantage for
Speaker 2: having just done it, whether you've done it well or not,
Speaker 2: just getting comfortable walking into a small setting. It's much
Speaker 2: easier to perform I think, in front of a thousand
Speaker 2: or two thousand people sometimes than those really small rooms.
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, yeah, absolutely, you've probably done the black blocks
Speaker 1: theater thing too in your life. Yes, I had a
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities to do that in Chicago, a lot
Speaker 1: of great spaces. There's nothing like that live experience. And
Speaker 1: as we move into the AI age, I think the
Speaker 1: craziness is it'll be the theater actors at the end
Speaker 1: of the day who are the only ones. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the ability to kind of go into a room of
Speaker 1: people and you're all live being, sharing space and you
Speaker 1: kind of start to cast a spell that whips everybody up.
Speaker 1: It's a really really amazing thing to get to be
Speaker 1: a part of.
Speaker 2: So you when you go to De Paul, have you
Speaker 2: decided in your mind that this is what you want
Speaker 2: to do, that you want to be an actor?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I just was positive that I was going to be.
Speaker 1: I was going to go to Second City and do
Speaker 1: the whole thing. I you know, in high school, especially
Speaker 1: because of the hi thing, I humorous interp the debate thing.
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to do stand up. And
Speaker 1: I had a first year acting teacher that I absolutely
Speaker 1: revered kind of pulled me aside one day and he
Speaker 1: was like, you know, John, you remind me of Robin Williams,
Speaker 1: And I was to me that was like nobody could
Speaker 1: have said a kinder thing to me and then drop
Speaker 1: the other, which was to him that was not a compliment,
Speaker 1: and it crushed me. And the school was very very
Speaker 1: hard for me in that regard. It was like, you know,
Speaker 1: they always talk about when you joined the Marine Corps,
Speaker 1: boot camp is about stripping away the individual and turning
Speaker 1: you into this one thing that doesn't really think. You
Speaker 1: just complete the mission. You're part of a team. And
Speaker 1: in a very odd way, that was what going to
Speaker 1: college to be an actor was for me.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I remember going for the audition and being surrounded by
Speaker 1: all these kids in leotards doing like vocal warm ups
Speaker 1: and being like, what the fuck is going? Like, I
Speaker 1: had no idea. I had no idea. That was why
Speaker 1: I was sure. I was like, well, I'm not getting
Speaker 1: in here. So I feel like a lot of my
Speaker 1: career has been about trying to tap back into some
Speaker 1: of that fairy dust, you know, that I had in
Speaker 1: my soul before I came to a theater conservatory.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that even answered your question remotely. No.
Speaker 3: Well, one, I don't know either.
Speaker 2: But two, that's very very interesting because I think that
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I am tremendously grateful for the
Speaker 2: experience that I had and the training that I have.
Speaker 3: But I think that you bring up an interesting.
Speaker 2: Point, which, by the way, at least at SMU, the
Speaker 2: teachers talked about, which is you're learning all of these
Speaker 2: tools and movement and voice and action and objective and
Speaker 2: all of those things, and then eventually you are supposed
Speaker 2: to just let it go and go back and have
Speaker 2: it be a part of your training, but not what
Speaker 2: you're focusing on. And I think especially young actors get
Speaker 2: wrapped up in that process as sort of falling in
Speaker 2: love with the process, which then you know doesn't enable
Speaker 2: you to perform. Yet you mentioned something you talked about
Speaker 2: boot camp, and I do want to touch on this
Speaker 2: because this is well unique and by the way, this
Speaker 2: is not a place we connect. You spent a bit
Speaker 2: of time at that Naval Junior Reserve Officers Training Corps.
Speaker 2: Now one, what is this and how old were you?
Speaker 2: Was this a potential path for you early on?
Speaker 1: Man, that was a deep dive, bro, I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you asked that question. That's really really cool. Yes, it
Speaker 1: was a potential path for me at one point. So
Speaker 1: my dad, as I mentioned was selling life insurance. When
Speaker 1: I was in seventh grade. The group of people that
Speaker 1: my dad was selling life insurance with dissolved, and to
Speaker 1: me as a kid, I thought, oh, no, my dad's
Speaker 1: out of work. I have to secure my own future.
Speaker 1: And that was, you know, in a way, that was
Speaker 1: kind of true for a little while. But at Carmel
Speaker 1: Junior High where I grew up in Charlotte, in your
Speaker 1: ninth grade year, you could begin in JROTC. In high school,
Speaker 1: they have JROTC and it can be you know, typically
Speaker 1: it's Air Force, Army or Navy. So I believe maybe
Speaker 1: there are some Marine Corps schools. But in the eighth
Speaker 1: grade year, the master sergeant who was in charge of
Speaker 1: our ninth grade year would bring in a small group
Speaker 1: of eighth graders that he would kind of train alongside
Speaker 1: the ninth graders and then they would become the for
Speaker 1: lack of a better term, the cadet commanders of that
Speaker 1: ninth grade year when they became ninth graders. So that
Speaker 1: was me. I went up to Master Sergeant pageant. This
Speaker 1: guy wore a smoky and had gotten into the Marine
Speaker 1: Corps at age seventeen from a very poor background. At
Speaker 1: Tennessee and parental consent and got to go to Korea
Speaker 1: as essentially a child. Came back and became a drill
Speaker 1: instructor at Parris Island, and then became the head of
Speaker 1: the drill instructor training school at Paras Island. So this
Speaker 1: guy was like Lee Ermie from Full Metal Jacket.
Speaker 3: I mean, he was a.
Speaker 1: Real thing, and he was being a super intense character.
Speaker 1: I learned so much about how to comport yourself in society,
Speaker 1: how to be a responsible grown up, how to wear
Speaker 1: a suit, and about decorum. So I started to discern
Speaker 1: a path to college for myself. But I was also
Speaker 1: beginning to see the clicks in high school, and I
Speaker 1: was seeing the ROTC click and seeing myself as being
Speaker 1: a part of that clique. And I was beginning to
Speaker 1: think of it in terms of you know, this is
Speaker 1: in retrospect, Brian, but it was really a role that
Speaker 1: I was playing, and I was not ultimately cut out
Speaker 1: for that. I did not want that to be my life.
Speaker 1: I was I think I was wise enough at that age,
Speaker 1: not that I was super wise, but I was wise
Speaker 1: enough to know that that wasn't I wasn't ready to
Speaker 1: commit to that for the rest of my life, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to experience more so halfway through ninth grade,
Speaker 1: I backed out and got a pair of birkenstocks and
Speaker 1: here I am.
Speaker 2: You joined the you joined the click across the cafeteria
Speaker 2: like that was on the other corner of the cafeteria.
Speaker 1: I mean to tell you, man, within like a year
Speaker 1: and a half, my hair was down to here and
Speaker 1: it was like Kaki Sack every morning. But again, it
Speaker 1: was like, I'm very glad that I had that experience.
Speaker 1: It was it's good to kind of feel like you're
Speaker 1: being a part of something civic minded, especially if it's
Speaker 1: not to the detriment or to the exclusion of any
Speaker 1: one group. That's the main thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I think that it's you know,
Speaker 2: I don't have that specific experience, but I think that
Speaker 2: what you're talking about is so valuable that you have
Speaker 2: a variety of experiences, go through a variety of different
Speaker 2: groups if you will, or I mean it sounds like
Speaker 2: you being civic minded and choosing something of a civic
Speaker 2: minded that's well a plus to you. But just having
Speaker 2: that experience to pull from as an actor later on
Speaker 2: is invaluable. And it never makes sense to me, when
Speaker 2: you find that click or you decide, oh, I'm you know,
Speaker 2: a theater kid or whatever too early on, and you,
Speaker 2: you know, turn your nose up to other experiences or whatever.
Speaker 2: I think you're doing yourself a disservice for the thing
Speaker 2: that you ultimately want to do.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, Brian, And I think that's what you're
Speaker 1: to me. What you're saying is really about you need
Speaker 1: to kind of experience as many different walks of life
Speaker 1: as you can right on your way to being a
Speaker 1: well rounded person. And that's what really childhood, ideally and
Speaker 1: adolescence and young adulthood are all about.
Speaker 2: You mentioned before you thought Second City was your path,
Speaker 2: that's what you were going to do. Look looking doing
Speaker 2: a little dive into your resume, it sounds like that's
Speaker 2: not exactly what happened as you left to Paul uh
Speaker 2: Anthony and Anthony and Cleopatra, Hamlet, The Iceman, Cometh, Tracy Lets,
Speaker 2: Killer Joe by the Way, which nobody is going to know,
Speaker 2: or they did make a movie of it.
Speaker 3: That play blew my mind. So you become.
Speaker 2: Fairly quickly a working actor in one of the theater
Speaker 2: hotbeds in the country, Chicago, talk to me a little
Speaker 2: bit about your experience and did you then think that
Speaker 2: that was your life.
Speaker 1: I've always dreamed of having a path kind of like
Speaker 1: what I envisioned the like the English actors path to be.
Speaker 1: They get to have this great theater background and then
Speaker 1: they sort of at some point in their careers they
Speaker 1: graduate into getting to also concurrently do film and television
Speaker 1: and that's so that's on the bucket list too. I
Speaker 1: want to be a detective in western North Carolina.
Speaker 2: All right, you've come close, by the way, we'll talk
Speaker 2: about that. You've come pretty close, but all right, go ahead.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was like the Anthony and Cleopatra was
Speaker 1: an audition that I did when I was still in college,
Speaker 1: and I got to play the role of Skaus, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, like a guard, like not a big role
Speaker 1: at all, but I got to be on stage with
Speaker 1: Larry Yando, Kevin Goodall, Lisa Dodson, Bradley Armacoste, Scott Parkinson,
Speaker 1: and Barbara Gaines was directing These are like luminaries of
Speaker 1: Icago Classical Theater and theater in Chicago, and it was like,
Speaker 1: holy shit.
Speaker 4: Anything can go wrong on this stage in real time
Speaker 4: while we're doing Shakespeare, and one of these geniuses is
Speaker 4: just gonna fix it, like we can just pull and
Speaker 4: we can ride this, and we're all together and we're
Speaker 4: gonna support each other and we'll get.
Speaker 1: To the end. And the crowd, even especially if they
Speaker 1: see the fuck ups, they're gonna love it. Well, good banana.
Speaker 1: And it was like I had spent four years learning
Speaker 1: all of this stuff in an institutional environment, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't until I got on stage with these pros that
Speaker 1: it was like my education truly began in earnest. So
Speaker 1: that was going on, and then after I mean, I
Speaker 1: did that first production, and then in the February of
Speaker 1: two thousand, first year out of college, the production that
Speaker 1: Mike Shannon had taken to New York with Tracy Lett's
Speaker 1: play Killer Joe came back as a four like as
Speaker 1: a profit production, and the rules were at that point
Speaker 1: that they had to hire two kids in their twenties
Speaker 1: under union contract. So I had to join the union
Speaker 1: at twenty three years old in Chicago, in a city
Speaker 1: at the time which was lousy with dudes my age
Speaker 1: who were non equity well into their thirties, So it
Speaker 1: was like, who the hell do you think you are, man,
Speaker 1: You've graduated college fifteen minutes ago, and now I got
Speaker 1: to pick healthcare bucket. I don't think so, But you know,
Speaker 1: I was like, when I got that job, it was
Speaker 1: like the grittiest theater going on in Chicago, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that it was a production coming back from out
Speaker 1: of town. And after that, I mean, it was so intense,
Speaker 1: Brian that, like, my wife would pick me up after
Speaker 1: shows sometimes and she wouldn't know who was getting in
Speaker 1: the car with her. But I was making a living
Speaker 1: as a theater actor in Chicago, and I was getting
Speaker 1: money into my healthcare, so I knew that the next
Speaker 1: year I'd be able to go to the doctor and
Speaker 1: do these kinds of things. And I felt like, even
Speaker 1: though it seemed like a gamble because there were so
Speaker 1: many incredibly talented actors my age, it was worth it
Speaker 1: because I knew that this was what I wanted to do.
Speaker 3: And then I.
Speaker 1: Survived as a union actor by winning jobs that took
Speaker 1: me to other places out of Chicago until I was
Speaker 1: old enough to kind of be in the casting pool
Speaker 1: in Chicago as a union actor.
Speaker 2: Are you at this point are you thinking about film
Speaker 2: and television? Where do you see your life heading at
Speaker 2: that point.
Speaker 1: I guess I had some dim idea that I would
Speaker 1: I would be one of the few people who booked
Speaker 1: a series regular role in the show that came to Chicago, which,
Speaker 1: as you know, that was very rare. Typically when a
Speaker 1: big production is coming to a place like Minneapolis or
Speaker 1: to Chicago, it's because they're shooting on location in those
Speaker 1: cities and they're as a pretty strong well of talent
Speaker 1: local there to pick up the smaller roles, So a
Speaker 1: lot of the bigger, better roles are already cast before
Speaker 1: those shows come to Chicago Earth And I began to
Speaker 1: figure that out probably early on, but you know, I
Speaker 1: was still like I I got to audition for I
Speaker 1: got to my first like on camera job was it
Speaker 1: was with Clint Eastwood directing, and it was Flags of
Speaker 1: our Fathers at George Gizzard was in the scene that
Speaker 1: I got to do. It was a really heady experience
Speaker 1: and they gave me half of a trailer and that
Speaker 1: was my first job. That was my first job. So
Speaker 1: I thought that was what being an actor was going
Speaker 1: to be. But I was getting on camera work often
Speaker 1: enough to where I thought, yeah, this is this is
Speaker 1: building to something. I was also really interested in doing
Speaker 1: voice work, so from a very early age I was
Speaker 1: chasing voiceover. So I got to do a lot of
Speaker 1: voiceover over the years too, which which helped me kind
Speaker 1: of make ends meet and kind of string it together.
Speaker 1: But I always thought, there's gonna be a role that's
Speaker 1: going to take me to Los Angeles, or there's gonna
Speaker 1: be a role that's going to take me to New York.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna leave work that i'm actively doing in
Speaker 1: this vibrant community to search it out.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Did you find that able to be true?
Speaker 1: I will say that when I've done work in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles and New York, and I've never lived in either
Speaker 1: of those cities, but I spent a good amount of
Speaker 1: time in them getting to work. When people found out
Speaker 1: that I was based in Chicago, they were always kind
Speaker 1: of gobsmacked. It was like, well, why did they fly
Speaker 1: your dumbass in here when there's there's so many talent
Speaker 1: wactors here. And so there was always like a certain
Speaker 1: amount of, you know, low key glee that I had
Speaker 1: kind of beat the odds just by getting a seat
Speaker 1: at the table from Chicago. But I also felt like
Speaker 1: a representative of what this city has to offer. Chicago
Speaker 1: is lousy with incredibly talented actors like Middle America, just
Speaker 1: solid natural acting. And I feel so grateful for the
Speaker 1: time that I got to spend there, continuing to study
Speaker 1: and continuing to grind, like it was a grind, particularly
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with mother Nature, which you know is
Speaker 1: you know, pleasant in Chicago for like maybe three months
Speaker 1: of the year combined.
Speaker 2: Right right, I mean, it's crazy, guys. John Is first
Speaker 2: two credits that at least are listed where I can
Speaker 2: find things are Flags of Our Fathers with Clenn eas
Speaker 2: Wood and Er, which at the time is like the
Speaker 2: biggest show in television. How does Er come about?
Speaker 1: Well, they would feel exterior shots sometimes in Chicago, got it,
Speaker 1: I mean that was a big one, obviously shooting in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, but every now and then they would have
Speaker 1: the stars of the show kind of outside on the
Speaker 1: street in Chicago to sort of place it in Chicago.
Speaker 1: And so I played a I played a doctor doctor.
Speaker 1: It was like literally doctor Collins and the props guy
Speaker 1: had Doctor Tom Collins, which was kind of a little
Speaker 1: little joke, but yeah, that was opposite Linda Carlini at
Speaker 1: the time, which was really really cool. She's gone on
Speaker 1: to do so much amazing stuff, particularly like Dead to Me,
Speaker 1: which I don't know if you've watched that show.
Speaker 3: Which is.
Speaker 2: So great in that show. Yes, but you're going back
Speaker 2: to the theater. You're continuing to work in the theater
Speaker 2: through the the aughts that they call them.
Speaker 1: And it was always there were only a handful of
Speaker 1: theater companies in Chicago at that time that were supportive
Speaker 1: of theater actors winning on camera work. Okay, without getting
Speaker 1: this is going to be really boring, but the contracts
Speaker 1: in Chicago theater allow for you to go and do
Speaker 1: on camera work, but it's always up to the theater's discretion.
Speaker 1: So you know, as a Midwestern working actor, you don't
Speaker 1: want to burn bridges. But I was always kind of
Speaker 1: able to sneak around and do a couple days here,
Speaker 1: a couple of days there.
Speaker 2: You're working in the theater, you're getting days or a
Speaker 2: week or whatever. In film and television and also doing
Speaker 2: voiceover work. At this point, how many commercials are you
Speaker 2: getting around this time?
Speaker 1: Well? I did, I did. I actually won campaigns. So
Speaker 1: I was the voice of Comcast actually for about years
Speaker 1: for their television commercials I was doing the vo for them.
Speaker 1: I was the voice of on Star for many years.
Speaker 1: I did several years of McDonald's across many different ad agencies,
Speaker 1: and throughout that time I was also picking up different
Speaker 1: spots for other people who were advertising too. I did
Speaker 1: a few video games here and there, and I was
Speaker 1: getting to do on camera commercials here more and more
Speaker 1: the later it got. I did a FedEx spot with
Speaker 1: an on camera commercial director named Jim Jenkins, and we
Speaker 1: ended up doing a couple FedEx spots. We did some
Speaker 1: other like Hyundai spots, and then we did a one
Speaker 1: off commercial for bud Light that ended up kind of
Speaker 1: becoming this whole Dilly Dilly campaign.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is obviously where I'm going of commercials.
Speaker 2: Maybe in history it rings very It rings high on
Speaker 2: the top of people's whether you loved it or hated it.
Speaker 2: Everybody knew the king in Dilly Dilly. Now when you're
Speaker 2: doing this, are you are you on set?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: So it's like if you're shooting a television show. Sometimes
Speaker 2: you'll be like, wow, you know this is this is
Speaker 2: pretty good? Are you thinking that this is going to
Speaker 2: change the world?
Speaker 3: Dilly Dilly?
Speaker 1: You know, we did the first one, and we were
Speaker 1: just I think bud Light were doing like four or five.
Speaker 1: They had a zombie one, they had like a Revolutionary
Speaker 1: War era one, they had this weird Game of Thrones
Speaker 1: it was ours, and then people just started using the
Speaker 1: phrase dilly dilly. And then they brought us back for
Speaker 1: one around Thanksgiving, and then like late November they called
Speaker 1: and they were like, all right, we want to do
Speaker 1: a Super Bowl spot and we're going to do it
Speaker 1: in It's either going to be South Africa or New Zealand,
Speaker 1: so get ready. And I was like, excuse me what?
Speaker 1: And then we went to New Zealand and we filmed
Speaker 1: the Super Bowl spots in friggin New Zealand, and then
Speaker 1: we filmed in Argentina, We filmed in Czech Republic, filmed
Speaker 1: many times in Spain. It was like a real dream
Speaker 1: to get to work on. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think about it in terms of
Speaker 1: like we were doing beer commercials, but really we were
Speaker 1: just making ludicrous, funny for the benefit of a beer company,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was. It was just it was just
Speaker 1: a lot of fun being like the stupidest guy in
Speaker 1: the room who kind of thought he was the smartest
Speaker 1: guy in the room, like, that's fun, that's fun space
Speaker 1: to play in.
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's so interesting that you talked very early
Speaker 2: on about your humorous interpret days and choosing to do
Speaker 2: money Python, because really I feel like that's what that
Speaker 2: commercial was. It was like classic Monty Python humor done
Speaker 2: in a really big and broad way but in a
Speaker 2: way that everyone could understand and ludicrous but fun, just funny.
Speaker 3: That's how I view it, viewed it anyway.
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like the success of that campaign propelled
Speaker 2: your career forward?
Speaker 1: You know, I was sitting on a boat in Columbia
Speaker 1: on the Magdalena River with John Krazinsky, bitching and moaning
Speaker 1: about my fear that that campaign would ruin my career,
Speaker 1: and Krazinsky was like, dude, just bet on yourself, Just
Speaker 1: bet on yourself. And he was also like everyone's doing
Speaker 1: commercials these days, man, And I remember, like he did.
Speaker 1: I think his story about insurance. You probably remember when
Speaker 1: he for like fifteen years after that, all the vo
Speaker 1: casting departments were like, give us a John Krazinski read.
Speaker 1: You know it was it was funny because I think
Speaker 1: it was such a it was this dumb kind of
Speaker 1: quasi period character and this big, long flowing robe. But
Speaker 1: it was a character. And I guess the viewing public
Speaker 1: who were seeing those either they put it together or
Speaker 1: they didn't, But if they did, it didn't really one
Speaker 1: didn't detract from the other necessarily in an odd way,
Speaker 1: which I'm very, very grateful for because you know, as
Speaker 1: you've been talking about, a lot of the roles that
Speaker 1: I've played on film and television have been pretty serious,
Speaker 1: and so I'm grateful. I feel fortunate to have gotten
Speaker 1: to be a part of those stories. But I also
Speaker 1: feel grateful and fortunate to get to make funny. You know,
Speaker 1: if your career starts to go in one direction, people
Speaker 1: start to think, well, that's what Brian does, that's all
Speaker 1: Brian wants to do. It's not necessarily the case as
Speaker 1: not necessarily all Brian can bring to the table. That's
Speaker 1: just kind of what you guys keep asking Brian to do.
Speaker 1: That's what I think. That's what it's been for me.
Speaker 1: So I feel like I've gotten a few got a
Speaker 1: few lucky ones in there where I've gotten to do
Speaker 1: funny stuff too.
Speaker 3: That's awesome. Who's John Krazinski? Uh?
Speaker 1: He was this young actor who he portrayed, showed it
Speaker 1: a fledgling Amazon production.
Speaker 2: Yes, John worked with my old pal, other John John
Speaker 2: and I put that together. What was it like working
Speaker 2: with John on the first two seasons of Jack Ryan?
Speaker 1: Oh he was great man.
Speaker 2: Come on, no, no, no, no, no, come on, just
Speaker 2: we're looking for truth here.
Speaker 3: What was it like? What was it like working with John.
Speaker 1: In this one scene where we were like going into
Speaker 1: this like suspected terrorists den in Paris and John and
Speaker 1: I were like at the back of a line of like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, like hardcore commando type dudes going up the
Speaker 1: stairs and stuff. And he kept dropping the clip out
Speaker 1: of his gun on the hard tile floor just to
Speaker 1: make me laugh. I mean, we were like a couple
Speaker 1: of fucking children, and it was like, this is a
Speaker 1: big budget TV show, And every time I laughed, and
Speaker 1: then he would just.
Speaker 3: Do it again because yeah, that sounds about right.
Speaker 1: I will say, this is a cool thing. He So
Speaker 1: between season one and season two, A Quiet Place came out, Yes,
Speaker 1: and it changed the dynamic on set going into season two,
Speaker 1: and John had suddenly a lot more ability to kind
Speaker 1: of talk about how he saw the scenes coming together,
Speaker 1: and it was really cool. To see him kind of
Speaker 1: rise to the moment. This's the thing that is like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think there are actors out there who
Speaker 1: just love to play different roles, and then there are
Speaker 1: actors who are geared to kind of take over the world.
Speaker 1: And John is one of the second category. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's like the people that you see at the top
Speaker 1: of their game. It's not a mistake. They put in
Speaker 1: a lot of time, a lot of effort, worked really
Speaker 1: fricking hard, and that was that was kind of my
Speaker 1: take on John. But he John is awesome. He's been
Speaker 1: really cool. I wish I could give you more shitty stories,
Speaker 1: but he always like he was one of them. So
Speaker 1: we're surrounded by Navy seals, which is kind of like,
Speaker 1: you don't want to do your own stunts. That's cool, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, but John all like always wanted to do
Speaker 1: his own stunts because he didn't want to catch any
Speaker 1: shade from these Navy seals.
Speaker 3: Oh he did come on them a.
Speaker 1: Lot, man, it's like, and some of them were were
Speaker 1: kind of dangerous, like he he he had We've all
Speaker 1: been like kind of busted up on that set, but
Speaker 1: he just keeps coming back. He's a tank man. He's
Speaker 1: getting it done. Wow, I can see I've let you down.
Speaker 2: I mean a little bit. I mean a little bit.
Speaker 2: He and I relates to Jack Ryan. This is like,
Speaker 2: this is like such a humble brag story. But I
Speaker 2: was invited to Europe basically to play golf with Prince
Speaker 2: Albert of Monaco. And I am in this very very fancy,
Speaker 2: nice hotel and there was a yacht thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was the whole thing. And my phone goes off.
Speaker 2: It's in the evening. My phone goes off and it's
Speaker 2: a text message from John. I don't remember exactly what
Speaker 2: it was, but my memory is that the text message says,
Speaker 2: what the fuck are you in Monaco? And I was like,
Speaker 2: first of all, how do you know, like what where
Speaker 2: I'm like looking around, and he was there. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you were there. He was there, I think
Speaker 2: to like do some festival or I don't know, but
Speaker 2: it was about Jack Ryan. It was like the opening
Speaker 2: of Jack Ryan or whatever. And he was there. And
Speaker 2: so there you go. We can't see each other in
Speaker 2: the United States, but you know, suddenly we're like sleeping
Speaker 2: next to each other in this hotel in Monaco. You
Speaker 2: guys went Montreal, Columbia, Morocco, France.
Speaker 3: How was that? How was it? I mean it sounds
Speaker 3: like you you did that for the Dilly Dilly too.
Speaker 3: How was that?
Speaker 2: Traveling around so much on that show? Was it fun
Speaker 2: or was it? Was it a grind?
Speaker 4: It was?
Speaker 1: It was fun. It was an incredible experience, particularly like
Speaker 1: our time in Morocco. One of the coolest things I
Speaker 1: did was I I got to go out to the
Speaker 1: western Sahara and spend the night in the desert on
Speaker 1: the dunes, and that was absolutely an amazing experience. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the time in Colombia was we were on like
Speaker 1: the National Police training headquarters near a small city called
Speaker 1: Hiradok in kind of central Colombia, about two and a
Speaker 1: half hours away from Bogatah. Yeah, man, it was. It was.
Speaker 1: It was super intense and very challenging, but ultimately a
Speaker 1: really really cool ride.
Speaker 2: You've said that the role reminded you of your own
Speaker 2: inner voice or your family back home. What do you
Speaker 2: mean by that.
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of talking about like dudes you'd come
Speaker 1: across in North Carolina who were just kind of like, man,
Speaker 1: I was. I'm gonna tell you what earlier this week,
Speaker 1: our dog was in the yard and a turkey walked
Speaker 1: across the yard and the dog ran up that turkey
Speaker 1: ended up in the tree. I mean, just that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, you know. God, Okay, it just is kind
Speaker 1: of like that's what's below all the theater school training,
Speaker 1: you know, Right. So when I went in to read
Speaker 1: for that, I just kind of let it roll, and
Speaker 1: I saw this guy as someone who is actually, if
Speaker 1: you play badass, it kind of makes him seem like,
Speaker 1: maybe he's not such a badass, right. I just I
Speaker 1: just kind of thought that he placing him in a
Speaker 1: sort of real approachable place made him more of a
Speaker 1: real human being. And I guess I guess that that's
Speaker 1: all I was going for.
Speaker 2: I have to mention a show, and I don't know
Speaker 2: that I ever do this when I'm talking to people,
Speaker 2: talk specifically about my feelings, unless it's just straight praise
Speaker 2: of a show. You had a role of Carl Wilkes
Speaker 2: in Castle Rock. I thought that show was so freaking interesting.
Speaker 2: I thought it was flawed. I'm gonna be honest with you,
Speaker 2: I thought a lot of it didn't work. It's so
Speaker 2: complicated that it's hard to even explain what it is
Speaker 2: except it's basically Stephen King's mind and his characters throughout
Speaker 2: the history of his writings existing semi simultaneously in the
Speaker 2: same town. John plays Annie Wilkes's father, Annie Wilkes, of course,
Speaker 2: going on to be the villain the lead of Misery
Speaker 2: played by Kathy Bates, who appeared in the office Boom.
Speaker 2: There's my association. F. John Krasinsky. F John Krasinsky, You
Speaker 2: played the father of Annie Wilkes that Kathy Bates won
Speaker 2: an oscar for. Talk to me about the experience that
Speaker 2: you had on that show. Was Stephen King around?
Speaker 1: I'm sure he was in touch with the producers and
Speaker 1: the writers and everyone.
Speaker 3: He was not generals, he was not Okay, good, okay.
Speaker 3: It makes me feel better that I wasn't involved.
Speaker 1: We were in Massachusetts. That filmed in Massachusetts, which was
Speaker 1: beautiful when we were there. We were about an hour
Speaker 1: west of Boston. And Lizzie Kaplan who played Annie, and
Speaker 1: Ruby Cruz who played young Annie in the in the flashbacks,
Speaker 1: both just phenomenal talents. Lizzie Man, she was just so committed,
Speaker 1: so professional. It was a super intense experience. Particularly I
Speaker 1: guess it is it a spoiler if I talk about
Speaker 1: kind of the final scene.
Speaker 2: I mean, I did, I didn't know. No, it's been
Speaker 2: four years. No, it's not a spoiler, go ahead.
Speaker 1: They the dad is pushed down some stairs.
Speaker 3: Flight of stairs. You did. That's not yourself, like John, right,
Speaker 3: it's not myself.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I was impaled on a banister and they
Speaker 1: run a they run a hose of blood kind of
Speaker 1: up your shirt and next to your face, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of going off while you play this scene with
Speaker 1: your daughter. And it was, man, it was that was
Speaker 1: super intense, but actually a lot of fun and really
Speaker 1: really disturbing, really disturbing. It's a lot of fun to
Speaker 1: get to do harror every now and then to scare
Speaker 1: people and to dig into the things that people are
Speaker 1: I was going to say triggered by, but that's kind
Speaker 1: of a loaded term.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just thought that the series was super fascinating and
Speaker 2: it's it's good to hear that it was a good
Speaker 2: experience and also not surprising that it was. That it
Speaker 2: was difficult, an amazing cast, and yeah, if you haven't
Speaker 2: checked it out, it's worth checking out. Got to talk
Speaker 2: to you about Dope Sick, The show of twenty twenty
Speaker 2: one twenty twenty two for sure, Randy Ramsayer, Ramsayer, Ramsire,
Speaker 2: Ramsire whatever, Randy, uh that was? This is my reference
Speaker 2: to the playing a cop in western North Carolina, close
Speaker 2: but not quite. Talk to me about your experience working
Speaker 2: on Dope Sick and interestingly, an incredibly dark I loved it,
Speaker 2: incredibly dark show. Did you have a positive experience working
Speaker 2: on Dope Sick and did you expect that to be
Speaker 2: well the show of the last year or so.
Speaker 1: I absolutely had a positive experience on it. I learned
Speaker 1: so much. You know that that's one of the conversations
Speaker 1: that has been on a slow boil in this country
Speaker 1: for over twenty years, to reading OxyContin and all these
Speaker 1: things going on, and we've all known that we've been
Speaker 1: kind of fed a line on this, these prescription painkillers.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until shows and documentarians really started to
Speaker 1: do a kind of a deep dive into the connection
Speaker 1: between this one company and the way that these drugs
Speaker 1: are sort of insinuated into the healing process when you
Speaker 1: get hospitalized, and kind of making all these connections and
Speaker 1: finding out that certain aspects of the testing going through
Speaker 1: the FDA were all kind of fiddled with. It woke
Speaker 1: me up to a lot of ways that we can
Speaker 1: certainly do better. Danny Strong, who was the writer and
Speaker 1: the producer, was a constant. It was like walking around
Speaker 1: with an encyclopedia. This guy had so much knowledge in
Speaker 1: his brain the whole time.
Speaker 3: But also.
Speaker 1: It was kind of like that situation where the darker
Speaker 1: the subject matter, the more levity there is offscreen because
Speaker 1: the people telling those stories have to find a balance
Speaker 1: or you just absolutely go insane. Yeah, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's a very different path for an actor on a
Speaker 1: set like that. And the cool thing is casts and
Speaker 1: the producers sort of understand what it is that you
Speaker 1: have to find within yourself on a given day, and
Speaker 1: they will give you space to find it, and they
Speaker 1: will they will kind of try and find a way
Speaker 1: to be supportive of you. But it was we shot
Speaker 1: that and rich In and around Richmond, Virginia. It was
Speaker 1: a lovely time to get to work in. It was.
Speaker 1: It was a great experience. And the first couple episodes
Speaker 1: were directed, of course by Barry Levinson, which was a
Speaker 1: real honor to get to work with him. He was
Speaker 1: one of he's one of these directors who knows exactly
Speaker 1: what's going in the final cut. He knows what he's
Speaker 1: going to use, so there's a he's very efficient and
Speaker 1: very direct in getting what he needed from the actors.
Speaker 1: Was wonderful to get to work with all those.
Speaker 2: Guys, being from North Carolina now living back in North Carolina,
Speaker 2: that is a state and an area there that has
Speaker 2: suffered a lot from the opioid epidemic. Did you have
Speaker 2: a personal connection to this because of that?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There are suboxym clinics, which is one of the drugs
Speaker 1: that they try and do replacement therapy with all over
Speaker 1: the place here, and I think that that was one
Speaker 1: of the things that I learned is that cold turkey
Speaker 1: and prayer doesn't work all that well. Unfortunately with people
Speaker 1: who are addicted to drugs like this. You're lucky if
Speaker 1: you get off it and stay off it at all.
Speaker 1: A lot of times, the more humane way to stop
Speaker 1: using it is to slowly step down with a replacement
Speaker 1: And certainly it has touched these addictions. Have touched people
Speaker 1: in my family, They've touched so many people in America,
Speaker 1: and it's something that it's like a dirty, little household
Speaker 1: secret for so many people. And that was one of
Speaker 1: the things that I was eager to tackle was how
Speaker 1: are we going to portray people who become addicted to
Speaker 1: this drug? You know, if it's a high school football
Speaker 1: football player who suffers a knee injury and is given
Speaker 1: OxyContin and then four months later their life is ruined
Speaker 1: and they have to find something cheaper, so they switch
Speaker 1: to heroin. Generally, we in this country, I think, have
Speaker 1: thought of people who become drug addicts as morally weak
Speaker 1: for people who have suffered, and the reality is often
Speaker 1: so much more nuanced than that. And so I think
Speaker 1: one of the things that the show really got right
Speaker 1: was how you can become addicted to some of these
Speaker 1: drugs when the situation is constructed and architected in such
Speaker 1: a way to make people become addicted through no fault
Speaker 1: of your own. And I feel like that that was
Speaker 1: the thing that the show got right, because that was
Speaker 1: one of the comments that we got over and over
Speaker 1: and over again was oh, man, my aunt suffered this,
Speaker 1: my grandmother, my son, my daughter, I have I'm still
Speaker 1: working on this, you know. And then I have had
Speaker 1: people friends and family who have, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: casually over the years asked about, yeah, if you have
Speaker 1: any pills or because I'm suffering this and I'm having
Speaker 1: a hard time getting blah blah blah. That's what that is.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's.
Speaker 1: Right, and I know, you know. The other argument is
Speaker 1: when shows go after oxyconton like this, you're taking a
Speaker 1: very valuable tool out of the doctor's hands. And I
Speaker 1: don't think that was what the show was saying. I
Speaker 1: think what the show was saying was like, when you're
Speaker 1: dealing with end of life pain or when you are
Speaker 1: under a doctor's direct supervision, this is an absolutely a
Speaker 1: valuable tool, but it's not a valuable tool for myriad
Speaker 1: other inies that one can sustain and live with and
Speaker 1: perhaps manage with different classes of drugs that are not
Speaker 1: addictive in the same way that an opioid is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was certainly my takeaway that really the issue
Speaker 2: was the lack of transparency with how addictive it was,
Speaker 2: and then potentially the over prescribing, which triggered that faster
Speaker 2: and faster.
Speaker 1: Walking into a hospital, you know, with an injury or
Speaker 1: some severe pain and being shown you know, the smiley
Speaker 1: face graph from smiley to frownie, where are you on
Speaker 1: this spectrum? And learning that that was kind of something
Speaker 1: that was constructed to make pain treatment a conversation that's
Speaker 1: at the front and center of conversations with doctors when
Speaker 1: you're healing and healing, and obviously dealing with pain is
Speaker 1: horrible and something that needs to be done empathetically. But
Speaker 1: when you have a company that stands to gain billions
Speaker 1: of dollars kind of wagging the federal government around or
Speaker 1: its agencies, that's something that we need to look very
Speaker 1: very closely at to make sure that, you know, ideally
Speaker 1: the government exists to make sure that we are kept
Speaker 1: safe from the crueler intentions of corporate entities.
Speaker 3: Did you meet Randyr Yeah, he.
Speaker 1: Got to Zoom and then he came to an event
Speaker 1: I think in Washington. Got to meet him there, and
Speaker 1: he's a super laid back, cool guy, you know. And
Speaker 1: these guys were like bulldogs, like they were immovable. There
Speaker 1: was they weren't going anywhere once they started with this,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the cool thing. It's like, you
Speaker 1: may think of us as small town and therefore you
Speaker 1: may not take us seriously, but we take this job
Speaker 1: very seriously. We work on the taxpayer's dime and we're
Speaker 1: not going to stop until justice has been served. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the really compelling story him in Rick Mountcastle just out.
Speaker 2: Not that you need any more, but John, but Waco
Speaker 2: the aftermath. I'm very, very interested in this. When I
Speaker 2: went to SMU, this is when Waco happened. From the
Speaker 2: public television in my dorm room in college, we watched it,
Speaker 2: and of course it's I don't know, sixty eighty miles
Speaker 2: down the road this was all taking place, So I
Speaker 2: feel this weird connection to it. I don't want you
Speaker 2: to give any spoilers, but what was that like going
Speaker 2: back to yet another true story, a tragedy and exploring
Speaker 2: the aftermath of that.
Speaker 1: So Clive Doyle, who I portray in the show, was
Speaker 1: a branch Davidian I remember that time too. I was
Speaker 1: fifteen turning sixteen that April. Yeah, I remember, probably like
Speaker 1: you do. There were you know, it was like three
Speaker 1: or four network news sources that were all kind of
Speaker 1: giving the same information on the standoff, and the idea
Speaker 1: was basically, these people were insane and they were making
Speaker 1: the situation worse and worse, and the government was just
Speaker 1: trying to get the kids out of there and keep
Speaker 1: everybody safe. And I think that's all generally accurate. However,
Speaker 1: there's so much more that went into pushing the government
Speaker 1: into the standoff, and that kept this group of ultra
Speaker 1: orthodox in the middle of the desert in Texas from
Speaker 1: complying and coming out of the buildings without giving anything away.
Speaker 1: Clive immigrated to the United States in the early sixties
Speaker 1: with his mom from Australia and had been at the
Speaker 1: compound for thirty years already when the fire happened. So
Speaker 1: I thought at the time that this was kind of
Speaker 1: a new group of people, and he had moved, and
Speaker 1: they were into guns, and they were marrying girls off
Speaker 1: very young, and this community had been there for many
Speaker 1: decades even prior to Clive arriving in the sixties. From
Speaker 1: a technical aspect, they wanted an actor who could find
Speaker 1: a way to also weave in a Texas dialect to
Speaker 1: this sort of soft Australian accent. So that was kind
Speaker 1: of a fun challenge to try and tackle. But yeah,
Speaker 1: Clive was I think a tantamount to a monk, and
Speaker 1: he also inhabited a world where miracles were all over
Speaker 1: the place. And this guy sitting next to him who
Speaker 1: begins as Vernon Howell and then kind of chooses the
Speaker 1: name David Koresh is to this group of people, he's
Speaker 1: the embodiment of God. He literally is the lamb they believe,
Speaker 1: and at a certain point, Koresh tells this group of people,
Speaker 1: I'm the only one who can have sex with anyone.
Speaker 1: So if you're married and I choose your wife, you
Speaker 1: have to be okay with that. And stunning how many
Speaker 1: of them stayed so to kind of study this against
Speaker 1: the backdrop of everything the federal government was doing at
Speaker 1: the time. It's an incredibly messy story from so many angles.
Speaker 1: I think that the takeaway for the federal government was
Speaker 1: if you back people with extreme beliefs into a corner,
Speaker 1: it's likely that they will do extreme things. Technically, what
Speaker 1: that means is that the government ends up acting more
Speaker 1: empathetically when there are guns involved. Then that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: As an actor, I want more empathy everywhere. I want
Speaker 1: us to strive to understand the worldview of those that
Speaker 1: we don't agree with. We have to make the effort
Speaker 1: to understand which is distinct and separate from agreeing with them.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: I don't know that we're all going to ever agree
Speaker 1: on everything. I don't think that's realistic, but we have
Speaker 1: to spend time trying to understand. And that's why I
Speaker 1: think this show is important is it's a continued meditation
Speaker 1: on what went wrong, which means producers and a network
Speaker 1: are sitting around trying to understand how we got to
Speaker 1: that place then and the doubtles. The producers and directors
Speaker 1: and creators of the show are drawing a bright red
Speaker 1: line from that event to Charlottesville and to January sixth.
Speaker 2: I think one, you're awesome and to the point that
Speaker 2: you bring up there is so important on both sides
Speaker 2: of this debate or war that's raging in the United States,
Speaker 2: and not having any empathy for the other side, whatever
Speaker 2: side that is, and behaving toward them in a harsh
Speaker 2: and unsympathetic and unempathetic way is only going to make
Speaker 2: them strengthen their resolve. As you said, that's incredible because yeah,
Speaker 2: we're still we're still trying to figure it out.
Speaker 3: God.
Speaker 2: And side note, I don't even know. I mean, I
Speaker 2: watched this other show. Did they talk about that in
Speaker 2: the waycoat that had been going on that long in
Speaker 2: the sixth in the sixties, that had been going on.
Speaker 3: I miss that. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lois So Lois Rodin, Jay Smith Cameron wonderful Actors.
Speaker 1: He plays Lois Rodin in this season. She is the
Speaker 1: prophet of the era and she sort of inherited being
Speaker 1: the prophet from her husband, who inherited it from another guy.
Speaker 1: So it's a shootoff of a shootoff of the Seventh
Speaker 1: day Adventist denoment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know.
Speaker 1: It was the kind of thing where and again, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about it without demeaning a group of
Speaker 1: people's beliefs. So it would be, you know, the idea
Speaker 1: that the it's all going to end on this day,
Speaker 1: and then that day comes and goes, and then I've
Speaker 1: gotten another prophecy, and now I was wrong, It's actually
Speaker 1: going to end on this day, and so forth and
Speaker 1: so on, and the Branch Davidians it was known by
Speaker 1: the federal government at this point that their theology was
Speaker 1: that the world was going to end in fire, and
Speaker 1: they had listening devices in the compound and apparently had
Speaker 1: audio of the Branch Davidians planning to set fire in
Speaker 1: various locations if the federal government ever breached the walls.
Speaker 1: They knew that, you know, the tear gas they were
Speaker 1: going to use was highly flammable, and they also knew
Speaker 1: that the branch Davidians had been talking about setting the fire.
Speaker 1: So it does become very very messy. So two things
Speaker 1: that I think about on this show are like, David
Speaker 1: Koresh committed suicide by cop and he took eighty souls
Speaker 1: with him, and the federal government for its part, was
Speaker 1: over eager to be used in that regard for a
Speaker 1: number of reasons. Also, there were three I believe three
Speaker 1: government entities on the ground at Waco. You had the ATF,
Speaker 1: which started the raid and called cameras there to film
Speaker 1: it because they were facing an existential crisis in Congress
Speaker 1: they needed to televise win. So this this standoff ultimately
Speaker 1: becomes a debacle in a tragedy. But when four ATF
Speaker 1: agents are killed and the FBI shows up, now you
Speaker 1: have two forces who are not actually working in concert,
Speaker 1: and then you have the hostage rescue team who has
Speaker 1: its own goals. So there was no general sort of
Speaker 1: telling everybody what the next step needs to be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and tragedy ensues.
Speaker 3: Fascinating.
Speaker 1: It was something that we we spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time learning about and studying about, and I don't want
Speaker 1: oral government is one blame or that the branch Davidians
Speaker 1: are one hundred percent to blame, but it is worthy
Speaker 1: of study.
Speaker 3: Well that's you know.
Speaker 2: Where great art lives, as far as I'm concerned, is
Speaker 2: in the question, not in the answers. So exploring all
Speaker 2: sides is valuable and ultimately hopefully changes things for the future. John,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your time you Knox goes away.
Speaker 2: I hear you've just wrapped principal photography on that. Another
Speaker 2: Michael Keaton adventure. Good luck with that. I'm a big
Speaker 2: fan of his and a huge fan of yours as well.
Speaker 3: I will be watching whatever you do next.
Speaker 1: Thank you for this time together. This has been a
Speaker 1: lot of fun.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much, John, I appreciate it. Good luck.
Speaker 1: Thank you sir, take care.
Speaker 2: That was so much fun. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: hopping on after talking to you. Let me just say
Speaker 2: I am so excited to watch Waco the Aftermath. It
Speaker 2: was a story I followed very closely years ago, but
Speaker 2: to hear the residences from today's world, well, well I
Speaker 2: just can't wait. Listeners, make sure to look out for
Speaker 2: John in Waco.
Speaker 3: He is going to be awesome.
Speaker 2: I know it, and of course make sure to leave
Speaker 2: a comment on our Instagram. Tune into next week for
Speaker 2: Off the Beat, Same time, same place, same me.
Speaker 3: We'll see you then.
Speaker 2: Off the Beat is hosted and executive produced by me
Speaker 2: Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Ling Lee. Our senior
Speaker 2: producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris,
Speaker 2: and Emily Carr. Talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and
Speaker 2: our intern is Sammy Katz. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak,
Speaker 2: performed by the one and only Creed Bratton,