WEBVTT - #505 Jason Flom with Fernando Bermudez 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:07.200 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:10.920 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:12.200 day of my high school year. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:14.640 I was going to be a senior at twenty two, 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.759 I was set to start college. I woke up and 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.040 my life was never the same again. Cops came out 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.759 with guns drawn, and I never saw freedom ever since 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.840 after that. It's like groach mode, Tom, once you get 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:29.400 in and I can't mount. 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.480 I'm Jason Flamm. Today we'll be talking for Nando Bermudez, 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.240 a young man sent away for the rest of his life. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.279 The arrested him and they sew away the key thing 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.000 that it did another bit of investigation accusations. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.000 In nineteen ninety one for Nando Bermudez was arrested for 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.360 the murder of a sixteen year old boy in Greenwich Village, 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:49.560 even though he was five miles away with his friends 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.400 that had multiple alum by witnesses who placed him far 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:53.560 away from the scene of the crime. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.520 A young lady said that I looked cute, and that 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.920 was enough for her to share the pictures and for 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.920 the witnesses to communally agree that I resembled the perpetrator. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.480 He was convicted anyway, and since the twenty three years 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.880 to life in maximum security prisons in New York State, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:36.160 this is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flumm Fernanda, Welcome to 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:36.520 the show. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:38.000 Thank you Jason for having me. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:40.840 So I want to talk to you about what your 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:45.120 life was like, what happened, what went wrong, what you 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.680 learn from it, and where you're at now. So let's 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.760 go back to nineteen ninety one. 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.040 Major cities in the nation are under attack from within. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.960 Nowhere are the problems more visible than in New York City. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.160 Bob Fall reports. 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.920 New York has gotten so mean and so dangerous. 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.520 The mayor actually went to church yesterday and pleaded with 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.320 residents to come out from behind locked doors. 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.720 What nineteen ninety one was a year where New York 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.520 City was crime ridden. The homicide rates were on average 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.840 two thousand per year, and it was a time where 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.120 I think the city was transitioning into a intention to 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:25.880 get tough on crime. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:27.800 I lived in New York my whole life, and so 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.080 I remember the only thing growing faster than the crime 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.800 rate was the hysteria over the crime rate, right. I mean, 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.280 it wasn't like everybody was getting killed or mugged or 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.080 but it seemed like it at the time. So but 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:40.800 how were you doing back then? What were you Were 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.800 you in high school college at the time, what was 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:45.280 your family situation? 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:45.919 Where'd you live? 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.959 I lived in Washington Heights, a predominantly Dominican neighborhood, mixed 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.240 with a lot of immigrants who had moved to the 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.120 other side of Upper Manhattan. And yet there was certainly 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.960 a commingling of ethnic groups and so forth. But for myself, 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.240 I was twenty two year old, twenty two year old 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.160 at the time, and I was a happy person growing 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.400 up in a close knit family, four siblings, two parents 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.840 who worked hard to achieve the American dream as Dominican 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.119 immigrants in coming to this country. And at twenty two 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:18.480 I was set to start college. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.239 So let's talk about the night that your life took 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.200 such a terrible turn. Let's talk about the crime itself, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.800 and then where you were and how you got mixed 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:28.440 up in this. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:30.320 Nightmare. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.600 Well, the crime itself, according to documented evidence, is that 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.960 there was a shooting at a nightclub, the mock Ballroom, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.600 in the Greenwich Village section the mock Ballroom Misser, and 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:45.760 it was near NYU. And so this kid named From Lopez, sixteen, 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.560 who had have sconded it from a work release program, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.520 had gotten punched by another guy named Raymond. 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.280 Blount inside the club. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.960 Inside the club outside, From Lopez had wanted revenge after 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.360 telling his friend from the West nineties neighborhood who had 0:03:59.400 --> 0:03:59.880 punched him. 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:05.560 So these two different groups of kids, yes, and they 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:07.240 wanted to start something. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.760 Yeah, Lopez had been punched, though, he was embarrassed and 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.200 wanted revenge, and so he told his friends from the 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.679 West nineties neighborhood not only inside that he had gotten punched, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.200 but also outside he identified the person who had punched him. 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:25.760 So I'm lay ensued in which Raymond Blount's friends were 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.680 attacked by From Lopez's friends and his group from the 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:34.120 West nineties. And in that confusion, under nighttime conditions conducive 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:38.279 to a mistaken that witness identification, Raymond Blunt was shot 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:40.240 and killed and killed. 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.000 Right, And so what happens next? So now we have 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.800 a murder, it's near NYU. That that puts a lot 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.560 of pressure on the cops. Right, So you're where were 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:49.680 you at the time of this? 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.400 So at the time, I'm actually uptown meaning where I lived. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.159 Did you have alibi witnesses? 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.239 Yes, absolutely, And that's definitely part of the story because 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.719 we were together driving throughout the city in a car 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.560 that I had just newly acquired. It was like that 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.839 same day, August third and fourth, I had just gotten 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.920 that car, and it was sort of like a big gift. Well, 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:11.440 it was a big day, not just that the car 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.320 was out for the first time, but also that was 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:14.479 the car that I was going to use to go 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.120 to college, to drive to for my home, which was 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:18.599 right across in the Bronx where I was going to 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.800 go to college. And we were driving around and enjoying ourselves, 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.800 oblivious to anything that had happened. And at the time 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.680 when the actual crime occurred, we were uptown in my neighborhood, 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:30.400 driving around. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.880 And so when did you first come in contact with 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:34.680 the authorities? 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:36.440 How did that happen? 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.440 August sixth, nineteen ninety one. So this is a couple 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.120 of weeks, two days, two days right after the murder, 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.520 and I'm driving home. I'm with my brother and we 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.320 had actually met two young ladies that night. It was 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.440 another you know, good moment, and we was driving home 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.800 when suddenly cops came out with guns drawn and pointed 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:00.040 them out the window, and everyone just. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.719 Screamed, you were in a traffic light. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.960 No, we were in front of my home. We drove. 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.000 The cops had been waiting for me. They had been 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:12.159 upstairs speaking to my mother and my siblings. When my 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.160 mother said that I should be coming home shortly, they 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.160 positioned themselves outside. So when we came out, they chew 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.039 their guns and told me to get out the car. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.760 And I never saw freedom ever since after that. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:28.359 So obviously you're twenty two and you're scared out of 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.960 your mind and they take you in. They tell you've 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:32.800 been charged with murder. Is that right? 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.040 That's correct. I was taken to the sixth Precinct and 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.359 and it's interesting because I was so scared, everyone was 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.320 so scared. I just got out. I complied, and I 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.160 got in the car. And then when they took me away, 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.640 the girl was saying, I thought you were a nice guy, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.720 and I said, I screamed back, I said, I am, 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.080 you know, And I was taken to the precinct. I 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.840 was interrogated for over ten hours, and they want to 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.120 know my whereabouts. On the night of August thirty fourth, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.000 nineteen ninety one. I told them, I told them who 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.400 I was with. I told them that on no circumstances 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:03.960 I was involved in any violence. I told him what 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:04.600 I was wearing. 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:06.920 Ten hours. 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.120 That's a tough I mean, that's a long time to 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:09.920 be interrogated. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.320 So did you did they get you to confess? 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.920 No, I didn't confess. For me, it was surreal experience. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.880 I just felt that if I told the truth that 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.560 it would be resolved. If I was just patient, that 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.720 it would be resolved. What I needed to do was 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.800 remember why I was, what I did, who I was with, 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:27.120 and it would be resolved. 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.240 And well, that's interesting to hear you say that, Frenda, 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.600 because there's a lot of distrust among the Latino community 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.880 of police nationally. I think the figure sixty nine percent 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.040 of Latinos will actually even call the police if they're 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.840 a victim of a crime or if they witness a crime, because. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.200 There is that distrust. But you felt differently. 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:48.840 You felt that the police were on your side and 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:50.680 that if you were truthful, then everything would work out 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:51.000 all right. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.400 Well, absolutely, cops for me at that point were heroes 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.280 to me. I mean, I had gotten It's an interesting 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.040 anecdote when I was about maybe ten years old, I 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.720 had found the stolen car and we went to the 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.480 thirty fourth Precinct, our local neighborhood, and the cops gave 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.560 me a bag of jelly beans and put the cop 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.440 had on me, and they said, good job for finding 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.400 my cops, I mean my father's stolen car. So I 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.760 admired them, and plus they were protecting my community. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.000 As a ten year old, that's a big moment in 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.600 anybody's life. Yeah, you helped out your dad, you found, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.280 you solved the crime, and the cops are giving you 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.680 big props. I'm not surprised then that you had some 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:29.240 you had a lot of faith in the system. What 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:30.040 happens next? 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.160 So because I refused to confess, I was taken to 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.480 the Manhattan Tombs Central Booking in other words, and I 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.760 was processed, I was arranged, I pled not guilty, and 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.440 from then on. Hours later, I was sent to Rikers Island, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.400 where my nightmare really began in Earnest. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.160 So you're in Rikers Island now your nightmare is fully underway. 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.000 I mean, this is I think this is everyone's nightmare. 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.520 Solarly, I had to go into survival mode because all 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.120 around me. I mean people were fighting over the phone 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.240 to make phone calls. I mean the phones were racially divided, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.920 two phones, one Latino and one Black, and those anyone 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:09.959 who crossed those lines so use those phones will be 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.319 cut in the face, smashed in the face with a phone. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.880 These are things I actually saw, and it was black 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.800 market operations. They were burgeoning gangs and what would become 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.760 groups like Latin Kings and stuff like that. And now 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.200 I was terrified. I just tried to mind my business 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.199 and all along, in my heart, I still felt that 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.199 the American criminal just system would prevail if I stayed patient. 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.480 Was there bail said in your case, no bail, so 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.520 you had no hope of getting out it before your trial. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:36.120 How long did it take you to get the trial? 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.120 My trial took about seven months to get on their way. 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:41.920 So you're locked up for seven months, taken away from 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.760 your family, taken away from your life, put into this 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:50.959 devastating circumstance was what was Let's just talk about the 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.600 jail for a minute. Rikers Island is technically pacified as 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.240 a jail, even though but people don't understand that many 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.600 jails like Rikers are actually more dangerous than maxims prisons. 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.240 So in those seven months, what you know what went 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:06.240 through your mind? 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.040 Sure, well I was there over a year, but it 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.080 took seven months to get to my trial. And you know, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.680 during the whole year and change that I was there, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.960 I mean, I was deeply affected by just seeing the 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:23.360 violence perpetuated by not just inmates on inmates, but correctional 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.880 officers attacking inmates, and even inmates attacking correctional officers. When 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:33.320 you see someone get stabbed with sewing machine efficiency, you 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.800 know there's something in you that dies and yet lives. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.040 It affects your psyche in a way that you're never 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.760 the same because you see another human being injured in 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.600 a way that just makes an impression, a bad impression 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:47.040 in your. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.880 Life, and there's nothing you can do about it. 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:50.760 There's nothing you can do about it, even if it 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.640 happens to be someone that you knew and even shared 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.080 a meal with for some reason. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.640 Were you when you went in, would you consider yourself 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.760 a tough guy? Were you a guy who could handle 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.640 himself in a fight or you what was your I mean, 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.520 Fernando as a guy who keeps himself in very good shape. 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.200 But I don't know you back then I've known you 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.440 now for six or seven years, so yeah, I mean, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.360 how were were you equipped to deal with this situation anyway? 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:19.240 Well, mentally, I wasn't equipped physically, perhaps I had a 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.720 better fighting chance than a more scronier person. I mean 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.000 I was a bodybuilder at the time, and that's what 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.160 would make also the distinction in this case in terms 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.360 of the identification procedure and why they even made me 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.680 sit down. They described the perpetrator by the witnesses themselves. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.679 The perpetrator was described as five ten, one hundred and 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.160 sixty five pounds. I'm six two, weighing two twenty and 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:40.680 so they made me sit down in the lineup to 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.880 hide the identification procedure. But for me, it was a 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.520 matter of just trying to adjust because you couldn't even 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.760 have a fair fight without getting jumped. That's what happened 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.160 to me when I was attacked. I was trying to 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.679 defend myself against someone in one instance, and then his 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.920 friends came and attacked me. I had no I couldn't 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:56.920 fight three guys. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.760 And what happened then, were you well. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.480 Went into my locker and stole my food and the 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.440 soap and deodorant, that my parents brought me. 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.400 But were you badly beating up at the time. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.040 I wasn't that badly beating up, but I was very embarrassed. 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.120 And you know, it was a turning point because I 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:13.680 was at a point where I was waiting for my 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.319 trial to occur. I'm waiting for the American criminal just 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.640 system to work in my case, and I'm being patient, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.600 and this is something that really tries your patient. And 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.720 when once the Latino groups saw what had happened to me, 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.760 someone tried to pass me a razor and they say, yo, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.320 you could resolve it this way, and I declined because 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.520 I want to go home. If I stab or hurt 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.760 someone even worse, I could end up in prison even longer. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.720 Yeah, I mean you were already facing a very long 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.920 sentence and you knew it at the time, right. So, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.000 And it's interesting too, the eyewitness identification. I just want 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:47.560 to touch on that for a minute, because there are 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.200 a lot of tricks that they play, right, and we 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.080 know that eyewitness identification is a factor in seventy five 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.280 percent of the DNA exonerations that have happened nationwide. So 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.480 there's a lot of movement now on the Innis's project, 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.199 The Spearhead this along with some other groups to reform 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:07.480 how I wouldn't identifications are done everything from videotaping to 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.120 other procedures what we call a double blind. But in 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.400 your case, they obviously just wanted to get you, and 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.560 they were willing to do some dirty tricks in order 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.680 to get a conviction, so they weren't really interested in 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:20.040 the truth. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:21.520 Is that fair to say that's correct? 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:26.120 I mean, as proven, the witnesses were placed in a room, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.600 these teenage witnesses at that who have been beaten, who 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.800 were hungry, who were tired, who were joking around, who 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.480 by their own accounts did not want to be there, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.200 and they were placed in a room and allowed to 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:40.600 just shift through pictures, and three friends of deceased who 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.240 were in a separate identification procedure, correctly identified who would 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.200 become the state star witness. And the four of the 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.720 witnesses who were in another room selecting pictures, then selected 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.760 my picture, and a seventeen year old young lady said 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.920 that I looked cute, and that was enough for her 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.520 to share the pictures and for the witnesses to uh 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.840 communally agree that I resembled the perpetrator and that was enough. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.040 They looked at the pictures together. 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:06.560 Yes, which is illegal. 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:07.600 Of course it's illegal. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.400 It's one of the reasons I got read it. 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:10.319 Oh my god, that's it. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.760 That's I've heard a lot, but I hadn't heard that 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.880 particular story before, you know, having having you know, been 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.280 being that I'm familiar with so many of these cases. 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.640 But that's that's just straight crazy. So there you are, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.400 you're you're stuck there. 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:26.320 And you go to trial. 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.520 And and you were you were represented by a public 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:31.680 defender at the time. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:33.400 You weren't a wealthy guy, right. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.520 I wasn't a wealthy guy. But my parents, uh got 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.920 scared and they hired a private attorney based upon word 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.400 of mouth, particularly because he spoke Spanish and he had 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.200 a son named Fernando. Okay, so that was like for 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.360 them for some reason that he had like a sign like, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.360 you know, and so they hired him. And you know, 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.000 he was hoodwinked from the start in that the prosecutor 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.800 didn't turn over excopolatory evidence, and when he did turn 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.520 over boxes of evidence, it was after my jury was selected. 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.160 So this is where so he had no time, no time. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.600 Even when he asked he was not allowed. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.480 Right, And we know that the Supreme Court ruled in 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.200 Brady that they have to turn over exculpatory evidence, but 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.920 it seems like it's almost routinely ignored by prosecutors, which 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.000 is shocking. Should be shocking to everyone in America, right, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.240 I mean, everyone who watches TV, watches crime shows, knows 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.360 that that's the responsibility of the prosecutor. And most people, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.880 i think, believe that the prosecutor wants to get the 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.840 right guy and would want to get the right guy 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.840 because who would want the wrong guy to still be 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.080 out there? Right? That's always crazy to be fre nanda 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:41.360 that when you aside from the human tragedy of locking 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.440 up the wrong person, the idea that the real perpetrator 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.000 is out there and is going in many cases, in 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.320 almost all cases, he's going to commit more mayhem, be 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.760 responsible for more mayhem and hurt other people should be 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.480 enough motivation in itself for law enforcement to want to 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.480 do the right thing. But obviously in your that was 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.800 not the case. I'm sure these guys were feeling a 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.800 lot of pressure, so much crime, so many cases they 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.320 deal with, they want to get it off their desk. 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:12.479 You were victimized by that mentality and that lack of morality. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.960 I would say, as well, so now you're at trial, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.600 you have your alibi. Witnesses there were they called to 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:20.040 the stand. 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.240 Yes, matter by witnesses came forward. I testified, and even 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.880 three friends of deceased came forward and said that I 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:27.480 wasn't the guy who shot their best friend. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.280 And so then people are listening, They're going, well, wait 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.120 a minute, wouldn't that be enough, wouldn't that be. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:35.440 The case closed? No? 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.560 Well that's what I thought, That's what I had hoped. 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.760 But what the jury didn't know, and I didn't even 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:46.360 know until the investigation unraveled on my behalf, was that, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.960 for example, from Lopez, the state start witness sixteen years old, 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.000 who knew the actual perpetrator had told the police and 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.200 prosecutors who actually committed the crime, but they suppressed that 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.840 evidence and where he could be found. In exchange for 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.040 his false testimony, he named me as someone I totally 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.040 was not, and the police still did not go investigate 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.360 the neighborhood. He got, after over twenty hours of interrogation, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.600 an opportunity to escape from murder charges, and the witnesses 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.800 the teenage witnesses as well. In addition, who didn't know 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.600 it from Lopez, but who did say that it was him. 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.800 They got that that part right. They had gotten charges 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.280 dismissed on the eve of their trial. Two had unrelated 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.680 criminal charges pending it which were dismissed right before my 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:33.359 trial began. 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.160 So it's amazing that prosecutors have this much power, right. 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.000 The fact is that people think that the judge has 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.280 a lot of power, or that the police or the 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.480 defenders have power. The fact is that an overwhelming amount 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.600 of the power rests with the prosecutors, because they can 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.439 decide whether to prosecute or drop charges against anyone for 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.040 any reason. 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:56.040 Is that right, yes, sir. 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:01.439 So it's interesting because we know everyone who follows is 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.480 even aware of anything to do with criminal justice, knows 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.359 that you can't bribe a witness, right, But yet the 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.560 state is able to offer the best bribe that there is, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.000 which is that, Hey, you got a lot of trouble 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.720 on your hands, kid, right, you're facing a murder charge 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.600 or you're facing assault or other things, and you know what, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:20.359 we're just going to ask you to do us a 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.680 little favor here, you know, tell us what we need 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.480 to hear, and you could go home and we're going 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.760 to clean it up and keep it moving, right, I mean, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.400 what could be better than that? And I think that 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:31.479 a lot of people would have trouble resisting that if 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.680 they're looking at a long period in prison, a long 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.040 many many years they're facing. They're scared too, and they 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.120 want to go home, and they go, well, I don't 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.240 even know this guy, Fernando, but you know what, screw him, 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.760 you know. So I think that's something that's important for 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:49.960 people to understand. People who are going to be serving 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.600 on juries, people who are involved in the system in 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.920 any way, I think they need to know that well absolutely. 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.480 And it's also how the system sets up the vulnerability 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.400 of this case. Teenage witnesses, you know, who haven't even 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.920 had their prefrontal cortex meant for good judgment even fully developed. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.920 In my case, for example, two of the witnesses, one 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.320 of whom had one of the charges dismissed, told the 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.480 prosecutor that didn't want to come testified. They didn't believe 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.280 I was the guy, and yet they were arrested, physically 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.320 taken from their home as material witnesses. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.280 That doesn't sound closer either. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.840 I mean there's just so it was really a series 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:27.960 of mistakes that read to you that led to your 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:33.880