1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: day of my high school year. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: I was going to be a senior at twenty two, 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: I was set to start college. I woke up and 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: my life was never the same again. Cops came out 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: with guns drawn, and I never saw freedom ever since 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: after that. It's like groach mode, Tom, once you get 9 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: in and I can't mount. 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 3: I'm Jason Flamm. Today we'll be talking for Nando Bermudez, 11 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 3: a young man sent away for the rest of his life. 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 4: The arrested him and they sew away the key thing 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 4: that it did another bit of investigation accusations. 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety one for Nando Bermudez was arrested for 15 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 3: the murder of a sixteen year old boy in Greenwich Village, 16 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 3: even though he was five miles away with his friends 17 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 3: that had multiple alum by witnesses who placed him far 18 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 3: away from the scene of the crime. 19 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: A young lady said that I looked cute, and that 20 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: was enough for her to share the pictures and for 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: the witnesses to communally agree that I resembled the perpetrator. 22 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 3: He was convicted anyway, and since the twenty three years 23 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 3: to life in maximum security prisons in New York State, 24 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: this is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flumm Fernanda, Welcome to 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: the show. 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: Thank you Jason for having me. 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 3: So I want to talk to you about what your 28 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 3: life was like, what happened, what went wrong, what you 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: learn from it, and where you're at now. So let's 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: go back to nineteen ninety one. 31 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: Major cities in the nation are under attack from within. 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: Nowhere are the problems more visible than in New York City. 33 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: Bob Fall reports. 34 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 5: New York has gotten so mean and so dangerous. 35 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: The mayor actually went to church yesterday and pleaded with 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: residents to come out from behind locked doors. 37 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: What nineteen ninety one was a year where New York 38 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: City was crime ridden. The homicide rates were on average 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: two thousand per year, and it was a time where 40 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: I think the city was transitioning into a intention to 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: get tough on crime. 42 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: I lived in New York my whole life, and so 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 3: I remember the only thing growing faster than the crime 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 3: rate was the hysteria over the crime rate, right. I mean, 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: it wasn't like everybody was getting killed or mugged or 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: but it seemed like it at the time. So but 47 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 3: how were you doing back then? What were you Were 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 3: you in high school college at the time, what was 49 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 3: your family situation? 50 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 5: Where'd you live? 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: I lived in Washington Heights, a predominantly Dominican neighborhood, mixed 52 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: with a lot of immigrants who had moved to the 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: other side of Upper Manhattan. And yet there was certainly 54 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: a commingling of ethnic groups and so forth. But for myself, 55 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: I was twenty two year old, twenty two year old 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: at the time, and I was a happy person growing 57 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: up in a close knit family, four siblings, two parents 58 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: who worked hard to achieve the American dream as Dominican 59 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: immigrants in coming to this country. And at twenty two 60 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: I was set to start college. 61 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 3: So let's talk about the night that your life took 62 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: such a terrible turn. Let's talk about the crime itself, 63 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: and then where you were and how you got mixed 64 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: up in this. 65 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 5: Nightmare. 66 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: Well, the crime itself, according to documented evidence, is that 67 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: there was a shooting at a nightclub, the mock Ballroom, 68 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: in the Greenwich Village section the mock Ballroom Misser, and 69 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: it was near NYU. And so this kid named From Lopez, sixteen, 70 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: who had have sconded it from a work release program, 71 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: had gotten punched by another guy named Raymond. 72 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 5: Blount inside the club. 73 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: Inside the club outside, From Lopez had wanted revenge after 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: telling his friend from the West nineties neighborhood who had 75 00:03:59,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: punched him. 76 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 5: So these two different groups of kids, yes, and they 77 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 5: wanted to start something. 78 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lopez had been punched, though, he was embarrassed and 79 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: wanted revenge, and so he told his friends from the 80 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 1: West nineties neighborhood not only inside that he had gotten punched, 81 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: but also outside he identified the person who had punched him. 82 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: So I'm lay ensued in which Raymond Blount's friends were 83 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: attacked by From Lopez's friends and his group from the 84 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: West nineties. And in that confusion, under nighttime conditions conducive 85 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: to a mistaken that witness identification, Raymond Blunt was shot 86 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: and killed and killed. 87 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 3: Right, And so what happens next? So now we have 88 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 3: a murder, it's near NYU. That that puts a lot 89 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: of pressure on the cops. Right, So you're where were 90 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: you at the time of this? 91 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: So at the time, I'm actually uptown meaning where I lived. 92 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 5: Did you have alibi witnesses? 93 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And that's definitely part of the story because 94 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: we were together driving throughout the city in a car 95 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: that I had just newly acquired. It was like that 96 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: same day, August third and fourth, I had just gotten 97 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: that car, and it was sort of like a big gift. Well, 98 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: it was a big day, not just that the car 99 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: was out for the first time, but also that was 100 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: the car that I was going to use to go 101 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: to college, to drive to for my home, which was 102 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: right across in the Bronx where I was going to 103 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: go to college. And we were driving around and enjoying ourselves, 104 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: oblivious to anything that had happened. And at the time 105 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: when the actual crime occurred, we were uptown in my neighborhood, 106 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: driving around. 107 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: And so when did you first come in contact with 108 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 3: the authorities? 109 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 5: How did that happen? 110 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: August sixth, nineteen ninety one. So this is a couple 111 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: of weeks, two days, two days right after the murder, 112 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: and I'm driving home. I'm with my brother and we 113 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: had actually met two young ladies that night. It was 114 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: another you know, good moment, and we was driving home 115 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: when suddenly cops came out with guns drawn and pointed 116 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: them out the window, and everyone just. 117 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 5: Screamed, you were in a traffic light. 118 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: No, we were in front of my home. We drove. 119 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: The cops had been waiting for me. They had been 120 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: upstairs speaking to my mother and my siblings. When my 121 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: mother said that I should be coming home shortly, they 122 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: positioned themselves outside. So when we came out, they chew 123 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: their guns and told me to get out the car. 124 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: And I never saw freedom ever since after that. 125 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 3: So obviously you're twenty two and you're scared out of 126 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: your mind and they take you in. They tell you've 127 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 3: been charged with murder. Is that right? 128 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: That's correct. I was taken to the sixth Precinct and 129 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: and it's interesting because I was so scared, everyone was 130 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: so scared. I just got out. I complied, and I 131 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: got in the car. And then when they took me away, 132 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: the girl was saying, I thought you were a nice guy, 133 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: and I said, I screamed back, I said, I am, 134 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, And I was taken to the precinct. I 135 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: was interrogated for over ten hours, and they want to 136 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: know my whereabouts. On the night of August thirty fourth, 137 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. I told them, I told them who 138 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: I was with. I told them that on no circumstances 139 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: I was involved in any violence. I told him what 140 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: I was wearing. 141 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 5: Ten hours. 142 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: That's a tough I mean, that's a long time to 143 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: be interrogated. 144 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 5: So did you did they get you to confess? 145 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: No, I didn't confess. For me, it was surreal experience. 146 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: I just felt that if I told the truth that 147 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: it would be resolved. If I was just patient, that 148 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: it would be resolved. What I needed to do was 149 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: remember why I was, what I did, who I was with, 150 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: and it would be resolved. 151 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: And well, that's interesting to hear you say that, Frenda, 152 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: because there's a lot of distrust among the Latino community 153 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: of police nationally. I think the figure sixty nine percent 154 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 3: of Latinos will actually even call the police if they're 155 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: a victim of a crime or if they witness a crime, because. 156 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 5: There is that distrust. But you felt differently. 157 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: You felt that the police were on your side and 158 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: that if you were truthful, then everything would work out 159 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: all right. 160 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, cops for me at that point were heroes 161 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, I had gotten It's an interesting 162 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: anecdote when I was about maybe ten years old, I 163 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: had found the stolen car and we went to the 164 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: thirty fourth Precinct, our local neighborhood, and the cops gave 165 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: me a bag of jelly beans and put the cop 166 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: had on me, and they said, good job for finding 167 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: my cops, I mean my father's stolen car. So I 168 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: admired them, and plus they were protecting my community. 169 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: As a ten year old, that's a big moment in 170 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: anybody's life. Yeah, you helped out your dad, you found, 171 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: you solved the crime, and the cops are giving you 172 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: big props. I'm not surprised then that you had some 173 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: you had a lot of faith in the system. What 174 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: happens next? 175 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: So because I refused to confess, I was taken to 176 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Tombs Central Booking in other words, and I 177 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: was processed, I was arranged, I pled not guilty, and 178 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: from then on. Hours later, I was sent to Rikers Island, 179 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: where my nightmare really began in Earnest. 180 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: So you're in Rikers Island now your nightmare is fully underway. 181 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: I mean, this is I think this is everyone's nightmare. 182 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: Solarly, I had to go into survival mode because all 183 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: around me. I mean people were fighting over the phone 184 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: to make phone calls. I mean the phones were racially divided, 185 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: two phones, one Latino and one Black, and those anyone 186 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: who crossed those lines so use those phones will be 187 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: cut in the face, smashed in the face with a phone. 188 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: These are things I actually saw, and it was black 189 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: market operations. They were burgeoning gangs and what would become 190 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: groups like Latin Kings and stuff like that. And now 191 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: I was terrified. I just tried to mind my business 192 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: and all along, in my heart, I still felt that 193 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: the American criminal just system would prevail if I stayed patient. 194 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: Was there bail said in your case, no bail, so 195 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: you had no hope of getting out it before your trial. 196 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 5: How long did it take you to get the trial? 197 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: My trial took about seven months to get on their way. 198 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 3: So you're locked up for seven months, taken away from 199 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: your family, taken away from your life, put into this 200 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: devastating circumstance was what was Let's just talk about the 201 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: jail for a minute. Rikers Island is technically pacified as 202 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: a jail, even though but people don't understand that many 203 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 3: jails like Rikers are actually more dangerous than maxims prisons. 204 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 3: So in those seven months, what you know what went 205 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: through your mind? 206 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: Sure, well I was there over a year, but it 207 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: took seven months to get to my trial. And you know, 208 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: during the whole year and change that I was there, 209 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I was deeply affected by just seeing the 210 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: violence perpetuated by not just inmates on inmates, but correctional 211 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: officers attacking inmates, and even inmates attacking correctional officers. When 212 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: you see someone get stabbed with sewing machine efficiency, you 213 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: know there's something in you that dies and yet lives. 214 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: It affects your psyche in a way that you're never 215 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: the same because you see another human being injured in 216 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: a way that just makes an impression, a bad impression 217 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: in your. 218 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 5: Life, and there's nothing you can do about it. 219 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do about it, even if it 220 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: happens to be someone that you knew and even shared 221 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: a meal with for some reason. 222 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: Were you when you went in, would you consider yourself 223 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: a tough guy? Were you a guy who could handle 224 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: himself in a fight or you what was your I mean, 225 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: Fernando as a guy who keeps himself in very good shape. 226 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 3: But I don't know you back then I've known you 227 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 3: now for six or seven years, so yeah, I mean, 228 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: how were were you equipped to deal with this situation anyway? 229 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: Well, mentally, I wasn't equipped physically, perhaps I had a 230 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: better fighting chance than a more scronier person. I mean 231 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: I was a bodybuilder at the time, and that's what 232 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: would make also the distinction in this case in terms 233 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: of the identification procedure and why they even made me 234 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: sit down. They described the perpetrator by the witnesses themselves. 235 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: The perpetrator was described as five ten, one hundred and 236 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: sixty five pounds. I'm six two, weighing two twenty and 237 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: so they made me sit down in the lineup to 238 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: hide the identification procedure. But for me, it was a 239 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: matter of just trying to adjust because you couldn't even 240 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: have a fair fight without getting jumped. That's what happened 241 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: to me when I was attacked. I was trying to 242 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: defend myself against someone in one instance, and then his 243 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: friends came and attacked me. I had no I couldn't 244 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: fight three guys. 245 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 5: And what happened then, were you well. 246 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: Went into my locker and stole my food and the 247 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: soap and deodorant, that my parents brought me. 248 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 5: But were you badly beating up at the time. 249 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't that badly beating up, but I was very embarrassed. 250 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: And you know, it was a turning point because I 251 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: was at a point where I was waiting for my 252 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: trial to occur. I'm waiting for the American criminal just 253 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: system to work in my case, and I'm being patient, 254 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: and this is something that really tries your patient. And 255 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: when once the Latino groups saw what had happened to me, 256 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: someone tried to pass me a razor and they say, yo, 257 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: you could resolve it this way, and I declined because 258 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: I want to go home. If I stab or hurt 259 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: someone even worse, I could end up in prison even longer. 260 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you were already facing a very long 261 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: sentence and you knew it at the time, right. So, 262 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: And it's interesting too, the eyewitness identification. I just want 263 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 3: to touch on that for a minute, because there are 264 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 3: a lot of tricks that they play, right, and we 265 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 3: know that eyewitness identification is a factor in seventy five 266 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: percent of the DNA exonerations that have happened nationwide. So 267 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: there's a lot of movement now on the Innis's project, 268 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 3: The Spearhead this along with some other groups to reform 269 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: how I wouldn't identifications are done everything from videotaping to 270 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 3: other procedures what we call a double blind. But in 271 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 3: your case, they obviously just wanted to get you, and 272 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 3: they were willing to do some dirty tricks in order 273 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: to get a conviction, so they weren't really interested in 274 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: the truth. 275 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 5: Is that fair to say that's correct? 276 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: I mean, as proven, the witnesses were placed in a room, 277 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: these teenage witnesses at that who have been beaten, who 278 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: were hungry, who were tired, who were joking around, who 279 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: by their own accounts did not want to be there, 280 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: and they were placed in a room and allowed to 281 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: just shift through pictures, and three friends of deceased who 282 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: were in a separate identification procedure, correctly identified who would 283 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: become the state star witness. And the four of the 284 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: witnesses who were in another room selecting pictures, then selected 285 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: my picture, and a seventeen year old young lady said 286 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: that I looked cute, and that was enough for her 287 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: to share the pictures and for the witnesses to uh 288 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: communally agree that I resembled the perpetrator and that was enough. 289 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 5: They looked at the pictures together. 290 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: Yes, which is illegal. 291 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 5: Of course it's illegal. 292 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I got read it. 293 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 5: Oh my god, that's it. 294 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: That's I've heard a lot, but I hadn't heard that 295 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 3: particular story before, you know, having having you know, been 296 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: being that I'm familiar with so many of these cases. 297 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 3: But that's that's just straight crazy. So there you are, 298 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: you're you're stuck there. 299 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 5: And you go to trial. 300 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: And and you were you were represented by a public 301 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: defender at the time. 302 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 5: You weren't a wealthy guy, right. 303 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: I wasn't a wealthy guy. But my parents, uh got 304 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: scared and they hired a private attorney based upon word 305 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: of mouth, particularly because he spoke Spanish and he had 306 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: a son named Fernando. Okay, so that was like for 307 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: them for some reason that he had like a sign like, 308 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, and so they hired him. And you know, 309 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: he was hoodwinked from the start in that the prosecutor 310 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: didn't turn over excopolatory evidence, and when he did turn 311 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: over boxes of evidence, it was after my jury was selected. 312 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 5: So this is where so he had no time, no time. 313 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: Even when he asked he was not allowed. 314 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 3: Right, And we know that the Supreme Court ruled in 315 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: Brady that they have to turn over exculpatory evidence, but 316 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: it seems like it's almost routinely ignored by prosecutors, which 317 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: is shocking. Should be shocking to everyone in America, right, 318 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: I mean, everyone who watches TV, watches crime shows, knows 319 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: that that's the responsibility of the prosecutor. And most people, 320 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: i think, believe that the prosecutor wants to get the 321 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: right guy and would want to get the right guy 322 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: because who would want the wrong guy to still be 323 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 3: out there? Right? That's always crazy to be fre nanda 324 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: that when you aside from the human tragedy of locking 325 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: up the wrong person, the idea that the real perpetrator 326 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 3: is out there and is going in many cases, in 327 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: almost all cases, he's going to commit more mayhem, be 328 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 3: responsible for more mayhem and hurt other people should be 329 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 3: enough motivation in itself for law enforcement to want to 330 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: do the right thing. But obviously in your that was 331 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: not the case. I'm sure these guys were feeling a 332 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: lot of pressure, so much crime, so many cases they 333 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: deal with, they want to get it off their desk. 334 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,479 Speaker 3: You were victimized by that mentality and that lack of morality. 335 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 3: I would say, as well, so now you're at trial, 336 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 3: you have your alibi. Witnesses there were they called to 337 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: the stand. 338 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: Yes, matter by witnesses came forward. I testified, and even 339 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: three friends of deceased came forward and said that I 340 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: wasn't the guy who shot their best friend. 341 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: And so then people are listening, They're going, well, wait 342 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: a minute, wouldn't that be enough, wouldn't that be. 343 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 5: The case closed? No? 344 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: Well that's what I thought, That's what I had hoped. 345 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: But what the jury didn't know, and I didn't even 346 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: know until the investigation unraveled on my behalf, was that, 347 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: for example, from Lopez, the state start witness sixteen years old, 348 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: who knew the actual perpetrator had told the police and 349 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors who actually committed the crime, but they suppressed that 350 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: evidence and where he could be found. In exchange for 351 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: his false testimony, he named me as someone I totally 352 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: was not, and the police still did not go investigate 353 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. He got, after over twenty hours of interrogation, 354 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: an opportunity to escape from murder charges, and the witnesses 355 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: the teenage witnesses as well. In addition, who didn't know 356 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: it from Lopez, but who did say that it was him. 357 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: They got that that part right. They had gotten charges 358 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: dismissed on the eve of their trial. Two had unrelated 359 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: criminal charges pending it which were dismissed right before my 360 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: trial began. 361 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: So it's amazing that prosecutors have this much power, right. 362 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: The fact is that people think that the judge has 363 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: a lot of power, or that the police or the 364 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 3: defenders have power. The fact is that an overwhelming amount 365 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: of the power rests with the prosecutors, because they can 366 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 3: decide whether to prosecute or drop charges against anyone for 367 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 3: any reason. 368 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 5: Is that right, yes, sir. 369 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 3: So it's interesting because we know everyone who follows is 370 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 3: even aware of anything to do with criminal justice, knows 371 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 3: that you can't bribe a witness, right, But yet the 372 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 3: state is able to offer the best bribe that there is, 373 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 3: which is that, Hey, you got a lot of trouble 374 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 3: on your hands, kid, right, you're facing a murder charge 375 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 3: or you're facing assault or other things, and you know what, 376 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: we're just going to ask you to do us a 377 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: little favor here, you know, tell us what we need 378 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 3: to hear, and you could go home and we're going 379 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 3: to clean it up and keep it moving, right, I mean, 380 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 3: what could be better than that? And I think that 381 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 3: a lot of people would have trouble resisting that if 382 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 3: they're looking at a long period in prison, a long 383 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: many many years they're facing. They're scared too, and they 384 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 3: want to go home, and they go, well, I don't 385 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 3: even know this guy, Fernando, but you know what, screw him, 386 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: you know. So I think that's something that's important for 387 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 3: people to understand. People who are going to be serving 388 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: on juries, people who are involved in the system in 389 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: any way, I think they need to know that well absolutely. 390 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: And it's also how the system sets up the vulnerability 391 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: of this case. Teenage witnesses, you know, who haven't even 392 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: had their prefrontal cortex meant for good judgment even fully developed. 393 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: In my case, for example, two of the witnesses, one 394 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: of whom had one of the charges dismissed, told the 395 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: prosecutor that didn't want to come testified. They didn't believe 396 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: I was the guy, and yet they were arrested, physically 397 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: taken from their home as material witnesses. 398 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 5: That doesn't sound closer either. 399 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: I mean there's just so it was really a series 400 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: of mistakes that read to you that led to your 401 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 3: both both deliberate and accidental, but mostly deliberate. Right, Yes, 402 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 3: so you're now you get convicted. The moment of that, 403 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 3: the jury coming back in, I can't imagine the pressure, 404 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 3: but you're you're standing there, You're still hoping that this 405 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: is going to be you know, the system's going to work, 406 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 3: and you're going to go home and try to forget 407 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 3: this whole thing. But then they come back and they 408 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: read off the verdict, and then. 409 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: What And at that moment, I just had an out 410 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: of body experience because I couldn't believe that, you know, 411 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: all my hopes and dreams were shattered in the American 412 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. I really had believe in the system. 413 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: I told the truth, honestly, and I was just shattered. 414 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean, my mother started crying. My six year old 415 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: sister at that time fell to the floor, and you know, 416 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: my grandmother, she like nearly fainted. I couldn't turn around 417 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: because the hand of the bailiffs was shifting me now 418 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: to not being able to look at my family, but 419 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: to look directly at the jury or the judge. And 420 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: I was just I was terrified. I didn't even feel 421 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: like I was there. I felt my body, but I 422 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: felt myself floating away. 423 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 3: The nightmares now fully underway. You're in a maximum security prison. 424 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,479 Speaker 3: Is it as bad as people think it is? 425 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah? It is. It is. You're living in a six 426 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: by night foot cell. It's very small. I mean I 427 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: could stretch out my hands and almost touch the cell walls. 428 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 5: And there's two of you in there. 429 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: Well, there was one at times there was too. Throughout 430 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: my years, I would be forced to be with someone else, 431 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: but in the beginning I was by myself. They didn't 432 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: have double bunking in the beginning of my inconserration. 433 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: And so there you are, facing the possibility of spending 434 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 3: the rest of your life there. And then things took 435 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: a very interesting turn. And this is the story again, 436 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 3: one of the many things that makes your story so 437 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: unique and makes you such an inspiring character to me. 438 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: So your story is national news, right it became. It 439 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 3: got a lot of coverage. I mean there's a lot 440 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 3: of murders at this time, but your story got a 441 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: lot of coverage. 442 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 6: Fernando Bermudez five people testified against him, and the judge 443 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 6: put them away for life, but was he wrongly convicted 444 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 6: of murder. Fernando Bermudez had an alibi. He says he 445 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 6: was driving around with friends. 446 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: There was no physical evidence against him, no blood, no gun, 447 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: but there was no getting around those witnesses. Maryann de Berry, 448 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: with the father's help, was able to track down all 449 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: the witnesses who testified against Fernando and get them to 450 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: admit that under pressure, they gave false testimony. 451 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 3: And so then you received a letter. Let's talk about 452 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 3: this because this is really and you wrote a lot 453 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 3: of letters, but this letter that came in you probably 454 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: remember pretty well what it said, right. 455 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: Well, absolutely. I was in my cell and I was 456 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: working out, and I just finished writing another legal letter 457 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: because I was always writing letters to try to get help. 458 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: And a young lady wrote me. She had saw my case. 459 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: She was living in Oklahoma at the time, and she 460 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: wrote me and she says she believed in me. She 461 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: said that she wanted to pray for me. And I 462 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: was just amazed that at her persistent persistence in continuing 463 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: a relationship. 464 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 5: With me, and she had to go to some trouble 465 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 5: to find you and gave your address on the TV. 466 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: Show, Oh no, no, no, yees. She had to investigate. 467 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: At the time, there was no internet and things like that, 468 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: and so she had to go. She was working for 469 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: the phone company, so she had to actually call places, 470 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: and finally she called Rikers Island and they got so 471 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: fed up with her after calling so many different departments 472 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: they already had heard about her that they just scribbled 473 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: off some numbers and you know, some more information that 474 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: when she was able to see on the TV apart 475 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: from my name, and then she wrote me a letter. 476 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 3: So you get this letter, and there was no picture attached, right, So, 477 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 3: as far as you knew, could have been anybody, but 478 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: just you didn't know that this was going to be 479 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 3: the woman of your dreams at the time, right, right, 480 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 3: But then things progressed. 481 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: That's right. She sent me a picture and she was 482 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: beautiful apart from her description, and most importantly to me 483 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: was that she brought the word of God in my life. 484 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I was at a point where I didn't 485 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: know what to believe anymore. The American criminal justice system 486 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: had failed me. I felt that God had abandoned me. 487 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: And here was this young girl speaking about God to 488 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: me and bringing about faith. You know, renewing it, and 489 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: that's what she did, and she came to visit me 490 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: and we got married. 491 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 5: You got married at the prison in prison, so I 492 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 5: couldn't believe it. 493 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 3: Wow, that was And that's Crystal Now, Crystal is. I've 494 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 3: met Crystal several times. She's an amazing person, beautiful, has 495 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 3: such a great disposition, so positive. And then you had kids, yes, 496 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 3: while you're in prison. Yes, And your daughter was born 497 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 3: in what ninety six, ninety five. 498 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: In the early nineties, and then we had another We 499 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: had our second daughter, who was born in two thousand 500 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: and one, followed by my son in two thousand and five. 501 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: So as much as it's a blessing to have kids 502 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 3: and have another reason to live right and to be 503 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: you know, motivated to get out of bed every day 504 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 3: when you're in this impossible situation, how difficult is that 505 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 3: to grow up apart from your kids, And how does 506 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 3: that affect them when they're that that is, you know, 507 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 3: not accessible to them. 508 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: What was extremely difficult decision for myself because first I 509 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: told Chris, I said, Chris, I said, we shouldn't get married. 510 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: You know, you really even shouldn't bother with me because 511 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm getting out. 512 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 5: You don't know if you're getting out, That's what I'm saying. 513 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so she was like, I have faith in 514 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: God that it's going to turn out. And then came 515 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: the decision to have kids. For me. I didn't want 516 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: to have kids because I didn't want to bring more 517 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: burdens to not only ourselves in the situation we were in. 518 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: But if I didn't get out, then the children would 519 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: essentially almost be fatherless apart from me being alive in 520 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 1: prison if I survived. But also I was so angry 521 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: at the system and what it did to me and 522 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: the confines and controls that I found myself in that 523 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: I said to myself, Wow, you have to do something 524 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: that means if you have a kid that can survive 525 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: if you don't. So it was that decision as well. 526 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and listen, it was a great decision because you 527 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: have a wonderful family, have three kids, right, yes, Yeah, 528 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: it's fantastic. So then let's talk about how you so 529 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 3: when things turned for the better and how you did 530 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: get out. 531 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 5: What was the breaking tipping point? 532 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 3: Who was it, what organization or person or combination of 533 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: things and others take it through. 534 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 5: When you were released. 535 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 6: Well. 536 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: The foundation of my case leading to my exoneration, upon 537 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: which all the good intention and no well spoken lawyers 538 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: who fought hard for my case. The foundation begins with 539 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: Marianne the Barry, who was a former nun turned attorney 540 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: in her late forties, who began investigating my case as 541 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: early as nineteen ninety three, nineteen ninety two and so forth. 542 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: And she began investigating my case, and she started laying 543 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: the foundation of all the misconduct that occurred and everything. 544 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: And even though I was denied ten appeals, you know, 545 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: with her help and all the different lawyers, including Hellerstein 546 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, and got rest Marianne's soul as she passed 547 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: away last year. The tipping point became around two thousand 548 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: and eight when I had gotten help from another attorney 549 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 1: from Seaton Hall Law School, and she was involved in 550 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: my case, and she got what would many prisoners would 551 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: call a dream team, including lawyers from Washington, d C. 552 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: New York law firms and other people from New Jersey 553 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: as well. And she also got involved on New York's 554 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: Innocence Project and together we all went into court in 555 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine after I had rejected a plea 556 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: bargain from the District Attorney's office. So for me, that 557 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: was a turning point because I finally got to test 558 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: the evidence before a new judge in Manhattan stan Supreme Court. 559 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: And it was a moment where I felt good because 560 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: I had rejected a plea, a plea bargain and off 561 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: for plea. But I was also scared because it meant 562 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: that if I had lost this eleventh a pal, I 563 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: would definitely or most likely, I should say, die in prison. 564 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: Well, that's an unbelievable amount of pressure, and an Alfred 565 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: plea for those of you who aren't aware, means that 566 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 3: you're the state basically comes to you and says you 567 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 3: we kind of they kind of give you like a wink, right, 568 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 3: like we kind of know we mess this up, but 569 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,239 Speaker 3: we're not gonna admit that we're wrong, which means you 570 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 3: can't sue us, but we're gonna let you go home. So, 571 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 3: I mean, that's a tough decision to make, right, I mean, 572 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: as bad as you want to get out of there. 573 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's a it's sort of 574 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: like a I mean, it's I don't know if you 575 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 3: call it like a Sophie's choice. But it's a brutal 576 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 3: decision to have to make. But you made the right decision. 577 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 3: And yours was not a DNA case because it was 578 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: a shooting, so there was no physical evidence at the time. 579 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 3: There was actually no physical evidence of any kind that 580 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 3: connected you to. 581 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: The crime, none whatsoever. 582 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 5: Never was never. 583 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: So you go to trial with this dream team innocence projects, 584 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 3: this group of dedicated individuals, and now you got the 585 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: full Now you got the odds a little bit in 586 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 3: your favor, right, it's fair to say. And so you 587 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 3: go to court. Let's have let's talk about the opposite experience. 588 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: You're there saying, you know, different kind of pressure, right, 589 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: You've been through everything that they can throw at you. 590 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: What happens, Well, I'm in court and I'm just like 591 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: glad that I rejected that offer because I really wanted 592 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: to get down to the matter of these witnesses coming forward. 593 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: And NBC News investigation shows if those witnesses are now 594 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 2: telling the truth, and Fernando Bermudas is the wrong man. 595 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 5: Your kids are there, wife is there. 596 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: My wife was there, and all a lot of the 597 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: past lawyers throughout the years were there as well. Mary 598 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: Anne was actually in a cave and Israel praying for me. 599 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: She went out, she was already out there, and the 600 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: hearing came and she was just there and she sent 601 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: word that she'd be praying in the cave, okay, and 602 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: so that was good. I felt confident with that. And 603 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: we were there and the EVIDENTI hearing under the leadership 604 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: of Barry Pollock from Washington, d C. 605 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 5: It went well. 606 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: It went well. I mean, the detective I don't know 607 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: what kind of problems he's had in his past, but 608 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: he did have, for example, past the rest for drunk 609 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: driving in which he hit two girls. He came into 610 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: the courtroom seemingly drunk. The prosecutor, who up until this 611 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: point was so smug and confident in his position about 612 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: his case against me, now was shaken, visibly shaken. They 613 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: brought in a surprise detective who they said would now 614 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: testify that he was observing the witnesses and that they 615 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: were not engaged in the illegal identification procedures, which we 616 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: already were on the verge of proving. And he couldn't 617 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: remember any details. So it's like they even made a 618 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: mistake bring him in because he couldn't remember. 619 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 5: Because everybody could see he was lying, Yeah. 620 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: We demonstrated through cross examination. So I was just like, wow, 621 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: all this is finally coming to the point where my 622 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: faith told me that my enemies would become my footstool. Wow, 623 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: And that's what was happening. That's what was happening. 624 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 5: And this was a judge, not a jury. 625 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: This was before a judge. And after a two week proceeding, 626 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: I waited a month because the judge says he needed 627 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: more time to make the decision. And I was like, wow, 628 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: I was stuck at Downstate correctional facility, starving. I mean, 629 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: I was so hungry. I was actually taking rations from 630 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: the mess hall and saving it in myself like a squirrel, 631 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: just to get through because there I was like in 632 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: between my irregular prison and rikers, waiting to be called 633 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: back to court. So it was crazy. I came back 634 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: to court and it was the big moment, this was 635 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: my eleventh appeal. I walked into the courtroom and there 636 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: was just like a hushed suffocation. All you could hear 637 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: was the whirl of recorders of television cameras, reporters furiously scribbling, 638 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: You could hear people breathing. The clock seemed to be 639 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: just ticking so slow you could just hear that. And 640 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: I was just like I was. I was nervous because 641 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: this was a moment. And finally, finally the judge asked 642 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: me to stand, and I stood, and my knees were shaken. 643 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: I felt a touch of global warming under my shirt. 644 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: I was just so nervous. And the judge declared me 645 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: actually innocent, and the courtroom erupted in applause. And then 646 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: the judge didn't stop there. He said that in this case, 647 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: the prosecutor, James G. Rodriguez, knew and should have known, 648 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: that he was relying upon perjured testimony, that the identification 649 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: procedures were illegal and constitutional and should not have occurred, 650 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: which a federal judge I previously ruled in my favor on, 651 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: And that the State of New York admitted that its 652 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: state start witness from Lopez had committed perjury, and he 653 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: declared me actually innocent. 654 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 6: Fernando Bermudaz was falsely accused of murder after a fight 655 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 6: outside of Manhattan nightclub. He was convicted, though sent to prison, 656 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 6: exonerated and released after nearly twenty years when a judge 657 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 6: found misconduct in his case. 658 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 4: This wrongful conviction was predicated upon perjury, was predicated upon manipulation, 659 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 4: was predicated upon coercion and deceit of New York City 660 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 4: District Attorney's Office and New York City Police Department. 661 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 3: And then you walked out of the court room of 662 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 3: free men. TV cameras there. 663 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, soon after that, I walked out. 664 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 5: And that must have been like a crazy mixture of 665 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 5: emotions too. 666 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: I mean, your wife is there, You're able to hug 667 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 3: her like a normal person, like a man, not in 668 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 3: any nobody overseeing you or watching or anything else, right, 669 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 3: But then you're out in the fresh air, and like, 670 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 3: what's going through your mind? 671 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: Well? I was scared because the world had changed so much. 672 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: I mean by eighteen years, eighteen and a half years, 673 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: several presidents and governors later. I mean, now there was 674 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: the Internet. People were walking around, cell phones, Yeah, they 675 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: were walking before I went to prison. The cell phones 676 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: with the size of shoe boxes, assuming you even had one, 677 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: you know, it was very rare, you know, And now 678 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: everyone had one. People were talking to themselves on the street. 679 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: I realized it was bluetooth technology. The fashion had changed 680 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: from baggy pants to now skinny jeans. Besides that, I 681 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: was just scared because it didn't even feel like I 682 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: had permission to be outside. 683 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 5: I was, I was psychologically Were you worried that they 684 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 5: were going to send you back in, that this was 685 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 5: all a dream, or that there was someone was going 686 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 5: to grab you and go no, go back to your cell. Whatever. 687 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: Well, I certainly felt that this can happen again. I 688 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: felt that, but I've had trouble crossing the street. I 689 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,479 Speaker 1: got Disney in department stores because there were so many 690 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: colors and choices. 691 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 5: Like a PTSD kind of Well, then that's when I realized. 692 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: After a while, I said, well, what's wrong with me? 693 00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: Why am I waking up in the middle of the night, 694 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: getting up and feeling like I'm still in a prison cell, 695 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: pacing and Crystal would tell me, you know, you got 696 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: to get back to bed. You're not in prison anymore, 697 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: you know. Walking the family dog at the point at 698 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: that time was an issue. I felt like there was 699 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: gun towers outside. I mean, it was just a lot 700 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: of stuff. So I realized after I went to psychiatric 701 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: evaluation that I have post traumatic stress disorder, and I 702 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: didn't think I would have that. 703 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 3: Well, you served, you know, of the of the in 704 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 3: the DNA exoneration cases with homicide as the as a crime, 705 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 3: the average time served a thirteen years, so you served, 706 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 3: you know, significantly longer than the average one, although we 707 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 3: had a couple of recent exonerations of guys who had 708 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 3: served thirty four years, which is unbelievable, numbers. 709 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 5: Almost twice as long. 710 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 3: But it affects everyone differently, and it obviously is going 711 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 3: to infect anybody to go through this. So I think, 712 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 3: you know, and it's interesting too, thinking back to that 713 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 3: scene in the courtroom. You know, the odds are stacked 714 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 3: against you when you're poor, when you're Latino or of color. Right, 715 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 3: we know that a higher percentage of people of color 716 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 3: are arrested, are prosecuted, are convicted. There's no justification for that, 717 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 3: There's no evidence that they commit crimes at a higher 718 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 3: rate or anything else. And so you finally got the 719 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 3: scales of justice tipped in your favor and you emerged 720 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 3: to this loving family. But then you still had another 721 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 3: lawsuit to go, right, you still had a case. Now 722 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 3: you have to file a suit against the city and 723 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 3: against the state. Right, yes, so that that has now 724 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 3: been resolved, Right, the first one. 725 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: The first one, but it took me five and a 726 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: half years. Let the record reflect. 727 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 3: Five and a half years. So you're out with nothing 728 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 3: for five no job skills, no resume. No, I mean, 729 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: how to get a job right, It's got to be brutal. 730 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: I mean all I had was, you know, an associate's 731 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: degree of the concentration in business and working toward my bachelor's. 732 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: And then when I got out, I had to go 733 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: to college to finish my bachelor's and I had to 734 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: take loans. There was no free ride here. I had 735 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: to go to college and out there and you know, 736 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: like most hard working young men and women do for 737 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: their lives and futures. But the thing is, I had 738 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: to deal with the psychological impact. I didn't know how 739 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 1: to drive anymore. I had to get a license. People 740 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: from my church closed me. They helped me get my 741 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: license back. I didn't have money to get a license 742 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: or even take driving school lessons. You know, it was funny. 743 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm forty years old and I got to learn how 744 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: to drive again. 745 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 5: No, it's interesting. 746 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 3: For another you know, almost thirty five percent of xenneries 747 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 3: don't get any money right because the compensation statutes are 748 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 3: so different in every state and in some states, it's 749 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 3: impossible to get money. So it's very difficult to get money. 750 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 3: And I think people think that you come out and 751 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 3: society just opens its doors to you and everything's great, 752 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 3: and you get a check and you move on all 753 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 3: your life with five and a half years with nothing 754 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 3: struggling on the outside. 755 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 5: I mean, I knew you back then, and I know 756 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 5: what you were going through. 757 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 3: That's got to be just an another almost another major 758 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 3: challenge to get through. But you got through it. I 759 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 3: mean you persevered. I know you went and did three 760 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 3: hundred speaking engages. We talked about that before and just 761 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 3: by cold calling, you've spoken all over the world. 762 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we've been to Japan, Italy, Germany, France, Switzerland. 763 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: We tell our story. Fine, why to transform the criminal 764 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: justice systems? 765 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 3: So, Feranda, what I wanted to ask you is, what's 766 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 3: the message you want to send? 767 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: Well, certainly, the problem of wrong for convictions is far reaching. 768 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: We have over seventeen hundred wrongful convictions that are just documented, 769 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: and that's just documented in America today. 770 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, seventeen hundred exonerations, I think, yeah, it's almost yes, yes, yes, 771 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 3: close to eighteen. 772 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely, close to eighteen hundred exonerations. Those are just the 773 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: ones that are documented. And you know, over almost one 774 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty were released from death row, which is 775 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: horrible as well. 776 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 5: And no, that's what Brian Stevenson says. 777 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 3: I mean, for every person we've executed, we've for every 778 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 3: nine people we've executed, we've had one exonerated from death throw. 779 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 3: And as he says, and he's one of my heroes, 780 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 3: if you had planes and one out of every nine 781 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: or ten planes crashed, nobody would fly. 782 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 5: You can't have this system. So anyway, I'm sorry in 783 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 5: directors to go ahead. 784 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, So on that note, there has to be accountability. 785 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: You know, prosecutors get this immunity. We understand that we 786 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: need prosecutors, and those who do a good job, kudos 787 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: to them. But for those that don't, who flell out 788 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: the system and our constitution, then shame on them. They 789 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: should be held accountable. They have too much immunity. We 790 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: need more accountability for those who are responsible. As a 791 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: deterrent effect. Law is created to deter crime across the board. 792 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: And if it doesn't deter crime or misconduct, then it 793 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: doesn't work. 794 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 5: Why is the law there above the law? 795 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, So they shouldn't be. And you know, the 796 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: damage that it causes families and the people directly affected 797 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: body and costs of is just it's horrible. I mean, 798 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm affected today. I'm still free today, but i still 799 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: feel like I'm in prison. 800 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 5: For people who want to help, what can they do? 801 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 5: Should they go online? Should they write letters? Should they donate? Well? 802 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: I think that public needs to connect with their politicians 803 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: and voice their concerns that this is an issue that 804 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: matters to them. But more than that, they also need to, like, 805 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: if possible, to use their resources, talents, and time to 806 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: volunteer to their local innocence projects. 807 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 3: You know, there are fifty five innosce projects around the 808 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 3: country and so there's. 809 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 5: Probably one near you wherever you are. Don't forget to. 810 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 3: Give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. 811 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 5: It really helps. 812 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 3: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and 813 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 3: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 814 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 3: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 815 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 3: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to do 816 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 3: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, 817 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 3: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show 818 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 3: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 819 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 3: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 820 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 3: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 821 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 3: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 822 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,800 Speaker 3: association with Signal Company Number one