WEBVTT - Google Workers Rise Up: Inside the Protests 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.920 Google is in the midst of a major upheaval. It's 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.680 not an understatement to say it could change the way 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:12.840 the world's largest Internet company operates forever. Since it was founded, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.759 Google has had a special relationship with its employees, especially 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.680 the engineers who write the software code that runs the 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.720 services we love and have come to depend upon, things 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.640 like online search, maps, Android phones, and the Chrome web browser. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.560 Google pays these people very well. Famously, working at Google 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.159 also comes with tons of perks, like swimming pools and 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.199 free food. But what's really unique is the amount of 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.519 responsibility and autonomy the company gives staff. Google shares an 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.239 unusual amount of internal company information with its employees and 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.000 encourages them to speak up about things they disagree with. 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.600 Over the years, everything from app designs and search results 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.600 to what kind of kale should be served in the 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.880 company kitchens has been up for debate, and as a result, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.960 Google services and products have benefited from the collective intelligence 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.880 of many of the world's smartest engineers. It's a big 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.080 reason why the company's offerings are so user friendly and 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.680 why they make billions of dollars in profit every quarter. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:15.839 And this symbiosis ran pretty smoothly until about two years ago. Now, 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.560 after a series of controversies and protests, some workers are 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:23.920 openly at war with Google. It's already duailed important business initiatives, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.240 and its sparking employee uprisings at other tech giants like 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.880 Amazon and Microsoft. We're going to take you inside these 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:35.720 foundations shaking developments with Irene Nap, a self taught senior 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.240 software engineer who's been at Google for almost five years 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.840 working on security and privacy projects. I'm Pierre Gadkari, and 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:52.160 I'm Alistair Barr. You're listening to Decrypted, So Alista tell 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.200 us more about Irene. I first met Irene last year 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.000 at Google shareholder meeting. Irene was there speaking in favor 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.880 of a proposal to hie executive pay to progress on 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.840 diversity and inclusion. Irene has had a front row seat 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.240 throughout the last two tumultuous years at the company, either 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.200 by being personally involved in protests or via relationships with 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.520 co workers on the front lines. Irene is trans and 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.640 goes by the gender pronoun they or them. They agree 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.240 to talk about all this, but not any private work 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.240 they're doing for Google. We met up last month at 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.640 the Bloomberg office in Silicon Valley. Now I wanted to 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:34.120 get into the first time, maybe where Google management and 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.680 some of the workers maybe started parting ways a little bit. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:41.919 So to me, things really got back to James the more. 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.120 In August of seen you published what we have all 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:50.240 called the mammos since then. Um, when thinking that about 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.680 people realize that there were many versions of the mammo. 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.600 I can't refined over a period to read circuit focus 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:59.840 stance for argument, which was this misogynist view that women 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:05.320 are not suit engineers. Let me quickly refresh everyone's memory 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.160 about this incident. A couple of years ago, Google was 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.080 facing accusations from a group of female employees that the 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.760 company was paying them less than men doing similar work. 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.480 Around that time, a long essay which had been circulating 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.320 on Google message boards got picked up in the press. 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.320 It was written by James Damore, who was an engineer 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.000 at Google at the time, and its central theme was 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.360 that men may be more suited to working in tech 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.600 than women. Offensive and harmful. That is how the CEO 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.840 of Google is describing an anti diversity memo written by 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.800 one of Google's male employees. Now, the engineer behind the manifesto, 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.520 which claims women are and how did how would you 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:46.320 rate Google's response to that crisis? The company fired him 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.360 after getting its little ducks in a row. The Google 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.960 software engineer behind this controversial ten page memo is out 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.520 gone after blasting diversity and women in the workplace. A 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.680 source of go I was pleased out that I was 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.600 not so pleased that there wasn't anything internal communication. Um, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:07.920 and there were. There was a planned series of town 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.360 halls which was canceled actually about half an hour before 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.520 the first one would have happened. And why did Google 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.960 scrap these meetings so abruptly, iron said. Questions and answers 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.080 that had been prepared for the town halls were leaked 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.479 to the public. Then James Damore and other plaintiffs filed 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.640 the suit against Google, alleging violation of their labor rights. 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:32.240 The complaint included screenshots of internal company communications. Conveniently, all 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.919 the people who pomittedly agreed with their names had been redacted. 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.640 But you know, all of my friends had been named. 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:45.360 In fall, and many people began featuring on harassment websites 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.080 for Irene. This was the moment when Googlers began to 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.159 really work in unison to change things several of us 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.039 put together a petition UM and we did get a 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:00.279 meeting with the company's upper management the West time to 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.279 my knowledge that a petitioners had not resolved. The company 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.080 has some responsibility there because this is a part of 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:11.719 a social change which was enabled by the Internet. Um 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.440 and you know Google, Google is a big part of 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.440 the Internet, part of the Okay. So that's how it 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.799 all got started. What happened next, I'd say the next 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.200 big flare up between workers and Google management happened several 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.800 months later. It had to do with the project that 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.560 Google had in the works with the Pentagon to provide 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.480 artificial intelligence to analyze drone footage. Internally, it was known 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.400 as Project may Even Now I mean and most other 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.160 workers didn't hear about this until details were leaked to 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:46.039 the press in March two thousand eighteen. Some three thousand Googlers, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.520 as Google employees are known, have sent CEO Sumed Arpachai 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.839 an open letter asking him to end cooperation with the 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.960 U S Department of Defenses. Project may have it that 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.080 venture includes the secrecy around Project may Even seemed to 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.240 violate Google's actors for open communication with employees, and importantly, 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.560 it also veered away from the companies focus on consumer 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.360 products and into military work. As an engineer, I think 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.159 something perhaps a little bit different when I hear that. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.560 I think most people think bombs. I think surveillance, because 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.200 you know, the United States does have I fine drones 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.719 which could just survey an entire city at once. But 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.360 I don't think any government deserves that level of power. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.880 I think it's too much. If I had wanted to 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.240 work for a defense contract, or if I'd wanted to 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.720 work for Key Martin, I would have done that. Google 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.880 employees didn't like working on artificial intelligence projects for the military. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.919 They thought it was war work, so they demanded that 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.040 we the Google step back, and they did. Google committed 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.520 not to redo that contract. The best of my knowledge, 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:56.080 that has happened, although I have the strong feeling that 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.880 that the military may have simply hired some versity into 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:01.960 a startup and that they're still running it on, you know, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.680 our public facing service. That last part is pretty damning. 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.920 Irone is saying that because Google's cloud services and many 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.920 of us AI tools are available for anyone to use, 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.560 there's a way for the company to continue helping the 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.560 Pentagon without directly working with it, so is that true? 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.880 I ask Google about this and several other points Iron raised. 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.880 The company declined to comment, but Google's top lawyer, Kent Walker, 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.280 has said that Google let the contract expire and worked 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.320 closely with the Pentagon to make the transition quote in 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.520 a way that is consistent with our AI principles and 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.920 contractual commitments. So Alistair, as I recall, the controversy over 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.080 Project Maven, died down after Google said it wasn't going 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.960 to renew the contract. But within a few months Google 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.840 was back in hot water with its workers again. Google 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.720 has been working on a secret project code named Dragonfly. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.440 Dragonfly was a censored version of its search engine for China, 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.080 and so today the New York Times broke the news 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.280 about a protest letter signed by four hundred employer ease. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.920 They wanted to quote raise urgent moral and ethical issues, 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.240 saying currently we do not news about this secret project. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.960 Dragonfly caused an uproar inside Google once again. I found 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:17.040 out through the press, and I was frankly shocked. Of 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.320 course this was going to be a censored search engine. Um, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.240 I saw a version of the search result page, and 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.440 you know, working at Google, the search result page, we're 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.360 all well aware that it has a very high standard 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.800 to be neutral, to reflect the world as it is, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.280 which is not the only possible moral choice, but it 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.720 is the moral choice that has been consistently made, and 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.960 that the company's reputation is built on um And to 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.240 see a version of that page where with a search 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:52.360 for Tianeman Square, which had I believe the first result 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:54.880 was something about the myth of Tanneman Square and that 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.760 it didn't happen, or something to that effect, So I 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.080 mean and other employees this undermined as the reason Google 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.280 exists to organize the world's information and make it universally 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:10.400 accessible and useful, because you know, if if Google can't 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:16.520 be remid on to say what's true, who can? Who 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:24.720 do you trust? Project Dragonfly also divided staff. There were 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.240 other employees who argued that providing services to China's huge 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.240 population was aligned with Google's mission, But in Washington it 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.839 was a double punch. This combination of Google withdrawing from 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:40.079 a US military contract while simultaneously building a search service 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.640 that would help an authoritarian communist government censor information. It 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.920 was too much for some politicians. Eventually, Google CEO Sunda 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.600 Pichai had to testify in front of Congress to explain 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.760 himself that happened in December. So I want to ask 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.600 very specifically, are any employees currently having product meetings on 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.680 this question, on this Chinese project and where, if not, 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.920 when did those end. We have undertaken an internal effort, 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.000 but right now there are no plans to launch a 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.079 search service in China. As I said earlier, are there 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.000 any current discussions with any member of the Chinese government 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.679 on launching this app? Currently we are not in discussions 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.480 around launching. And President Donald Trump was commenting on this 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.600 as recently as March. In a tweet, he said, quote, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.720 Google is helping China and their military, but not the US. Terrible. 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:44.199 We'll be right back. As two thousand and eighteen progressed, 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.199 it really started to feel like the clashes between Google 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.920 management and workers were heating up in a way we've 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.040 never seen before. The Dragonfly controversy was still playing out 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.640 in Washington when the next bombshell landed And what was that? 0:10:58.160 --> 0:10:59.960 Here was a story published by The New York Time 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.000 in late October, and it said that Google had given 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.600 one of its top executives, a man called Andy Rubin, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.600 who co created the Android mobile operating system, a massive 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.400 ninety million dollar exit package, even though he'd been accused 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.600 of sexual harassment and an internal investigation by Google had 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.800 found the allegation to be credible. Andy Rubin has said 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:25.280 reports about his conduct and departure from Google misrepresented the facts. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.280 I knew that was in the works. Um. I was 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.840 very at least it was possible to tell that story, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.120 and it was possible to gather testimony from so many 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:40.880 people that it was simply an incontrovertible I fl um. 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.439 And the response was pretty much a media I think 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.680 it was within a matter of days the walkout happened, yea. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:01.319 And who came up with that? That? Did that start spontaneously? Yes? 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.520 Actually it was a number of people who had previously 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.520 worked little that I gathered that they had been doing 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.000 things very similar to the kinds of efforts I have 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.160 been doing. You know, I came from a remote part 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.599 of that campus that day I headed down UM to 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.920 join the It was really a protest atmosphere, UM and 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:26.280 you know, all my sign not okay Google, and hear 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:30.240 what people had to say and see the real strength 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.280 and numbers, and then I believe the final number was 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:38.080 twenty thousand people worldwide structural change in the name of 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:44.520 transparency accountability. Google tried to contain the rage by going 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.880 along with the protest to some degree. CEO sund Our Pitch. 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.600 I made sure that managers could make arrangements to cover 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.640 for staff who wanted to take part. And how how 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.880 did the company restpond because in a way, in a 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.120 way they were kind of supportive. I think they at 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.560 us a table of like pagels and coffee, a joke 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.680 like the revolution will be catered. But then I've realized 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:12.480 it's not it's not really a joke. It's um it's 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.760 actually a very common management tactic to portray any descent 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.679 as officially sanctioned fit for you personally. What what do 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:21.360 you think of the most important things to actually have 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.480 changed so far? I think the biggest thing that has 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.320 changed is that Google's understand that we need to talk 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.920 to each other or we won't understand what's going on 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.280 their company if we don't, you know, share our stories, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.280 we won't. No, we'll just all be compartmentalized. And everyone 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.600 who's going through something horrible, something like any of what 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.960 any of the women who spoke to that reporter experience 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.280 they'll just think, Oh, this is just me. I'm alone. 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.559 Maybe I'm the crazy one, which is certainly how companies 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.479 everywhere have always tried to make people feel in those situations, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.280 and Google is no exception. Alista, what's happened to Irene 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.800 and all the other Google workers who have been protesting 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.400 so much in the last couple of years. I can't 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.120 imagine Google is very pleased with them. Well, some employees 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.679 said recently that Google has retaliated against them, so I 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.760 brought that up with Ireen Personally, what I have experienced 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.600 is everybody I know, everybody who's doing positive change of 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:26.600 the company, UM, who's working to make place better, UM, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.280 has been feeling disheartened, has experienced, you know, something, even 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.000 if it's even if it's small, even if it's an 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:40.400 interaction with HR where they say, um, you know, step 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:45.760 back from communicating. I'm my internal mailing lists and you say, UM, well, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:47.440 are you telling me that I have to do that? 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.200 Or are you suggesting? And they say, oh, I'm just suggesting. 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.480 And then afterward they follow up and they try to 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.280 get it in writing that they told you you have to. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.400 When you follow up and say, no, I that's not 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:01.160 my recollection for meeting. It was just advice. Correct, you're 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.640 not telling me that I can't and why why why 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.520 would they do something like that? Just a difficult tactic. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.200 I don't think there are any different from any other 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.400 company in that regard. It's um you know, establishing a 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:17.320 contemporaneous written record of what happened is likely to carry 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.360 more weight than your testimony about how that conversation really went. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:27.320 Some protesters say they've been demoted or had responsibilities taken away. 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.640 One of these people is Meredith Whittaker. She's a Google 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.200 researcher who specializes in AI and co founded a group 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.120 called AI Now that studies the impact of this technology 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.560 on society. So she founded a nonprofit called AI Now, 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.960 which you know, in my opinion as an engineer who's 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:50.640 work is relevant to this stuff, is doing absolutely incredible work. 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.840 Meredith was told, and I the form of it was 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:56.880 a bit ambiguous. I think that she would not be 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.440 able to focus on that work in her capacity at Google, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.760 and that the company's priorities were no longer online where 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.680 they are now, which is a startin thing to say, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.120 since it's like saying the company's priorities are no longer 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.640 relige with what's good for the world. Then in May 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.520 some Google is organized a sit in to share stories 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.600 of retaliation by the company. But this event was a 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.760 lot smaller than the walkout protest. Google has policies to 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.960 prohibit retaliation at work and provides ways for workers to 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:27.120 apport such behavior, and it investigates all reports. But I 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.320 mean said the company didn't sanction the sitting. Combined with 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.520 the reports of retaliation, people may have felt nervous about 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.640 taking part. I think this is the test of um, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.520 you know, can they get rid of what they must 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.520 view as the troublemaker saying all that work? I think 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.640 everybody else is watching to see what happens to us, 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.520 the poor group. And how do you feel It sounds 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.640 like you feel a bit targeted, yes, now as an individual, 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.000 as a member of that group, And what do you 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.160 think is going to happen to the group? I think 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.880 we're wrong to wear I think the company tactics here 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.400 show a great desperation. They wouldn't do anything so blatant 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.000 if they had any better options. Um. I think they 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.119 know how the world views this, now that they know 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.400 that Google isn't some magical place where everything is perfect, 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.840 that it's a company like any other corporation, um like 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:26.560 any other multinational corporation that you know, ultimately tries its 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:31.320 best to think of people's interchangeable. Okay, I want listeners 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.920 to stop and mull that last comment for a second. 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.159 I've been covering Google on and off for about five years, 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.679 so this is shocking to hear. Co founder Larry Page 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.960 has always wanted Google to be an unconventional company, but 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.359 here I mean is saying this is no longer the case. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.919 So Ali, I'm curious about whether all of these protests 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.080 by employees are starting to hurt Google's business in any way. 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.840 I think it could for sure. I think Google's ability 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.840 to hire and keep talent is a really under appre 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.040 created part of its success. And you know, these these 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.760 protests really are are all about how that special relationship 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.160 between Google and its workers has started to break down. 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.360 So it could be it could be a lot harder 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.520 to keep hold of talented people or higher new ones. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.120 And so what about Google's actual businesses. You know, we've 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.439 already heard that Google had to step away from Project Maven, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.919 which is a valuable contract that could have led to 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.840 more business. So there are other projects that are at 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.200 risk in a similar way. I think the main thing 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.480 to look at here is Google's cloud computing business. This 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.080 is the business of where you basically have a bunch 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.080 of servers and data centers and you rent them out 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.879 to other companies. And Amazon and Microsoft really lead in 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.919 that business. It's a really booming industry and Google is 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.080 third and a bit late to that business. Now. A 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.320 big cloud customer in the US is the US military 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.639 and the border US government. So if officials worry that 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.560 Google staff are going to keep derailing projects like Maven, 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.240 that could make them pick Amazon or Microsoft, you know, 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.000 when other contracts come up forbidding. And what about the 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.160 popularity of the CEO, Sunder Patty. He's historically been quite 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.520 popular within the company, and I wonder if that's beginning 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.480 to change at all. So there was a an internal 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.600 employee survey that actually Google does it every year that 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.400 this latest one, which came out in around early two 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.359 thousand and nineteen, again got leaked into the press. We 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.040 wrote about it as well, and it showed that among 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.760 employees sunder pitch i is still still has a solid rating, 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.360 but actually it went down by by more than ten 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.960 percentage points compared to compared to the previous years, So 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:42.720 there has been there has been a drop in the 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.960 way that employees think about him, and over the last 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.080 few months, pitch I has had to address the protests 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.320 from workers. He said that Google has listened to concerns 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.040 about the way the military users AI, and the company 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.399 has made quite a few changes in response. He's also 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.919 said that employees should be able to choose what they 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.879 work on, but he emphasized that Google is going to 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.879 continue working with the U. S. Military. Here's a clip 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.160 of him talking about this in November the New York 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.280 Times conference. We don't run the company by referendum, and 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.280 I think, you know, there are many things good about 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.919 We've given employees a lot of wars and out of 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.640 which we've done well as a company, and I think 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.080 it's part of the process. I think other companies may 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.320 not be used to it. And so it looks like, 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:26.720 you know, that is how everything works, but that's not 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.399 how everything works. Our positions we make, which they may 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.479 not often you frustrated though, and then coming back to Irene, 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.520 I'm wondering how they're feeling at this point because employees 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.760 have managed to push through some real change at Google. 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.880 At the same time, these recent reports of retaliation must 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.760 not be very encouraging. Yeah, I did ask them about that. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.920 I wondered looking back over this roughly a year, even 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.359 more than a year, Um, do you think it's all 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.320 been worth it? So? Clas absolutely no question. I came 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.680 through the tech industry and to Google with the idea 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.040 as to go of making positive change in the world, 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.399 and I still feel that Google does that in some 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:10.359 respects um. And I also I feel greatly privileged to 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.280 be in a position where I can make my own 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.840 positive change to the company, or at least try to. 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.440 And has this come at a personal cost to Irene? Yes. 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.680 Irene also talked about the toll of anonymous people goading 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:28.000 and harassing them online. Frankly, we're talking about white supremacists here, 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.040 and they are as shallow as you can possibly imagine, 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.280 perhaps more shallow. I think they They would say that 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:40.760 somebody like me is um, they might say effective, or 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:45.000 they would just express dis belief that anybody of my 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.960 role could possibly be somebody at all important than anybody 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.000 like me, you could do anything significant. I Rene managed 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.199 to remain calm through more than an hour of discussing 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.840 all this with me. The only time they really got 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.879 set was discussing how these anonymous harasses targeted Google co 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.359 founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin. But you see the 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:12.280 founders are you know, they have Jewish backgrounds of various natures, 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:17.359 and so to these as Larry and Sergey, who are 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.680 brilliant engineers who invented the algorithm that the company is 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:29.160 built on, personally, um are simply nonentities because Jewish it's 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:32.280 just so shallow. It was clear to me from this 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.320 that I mean still loves Google at least what the 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.800 company used to stand for and what it could once 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.919 again be. Now, what do you think the future looks 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.800 for for both you? You and and Google and you 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:49.560 at Google? Excellent question. I don't know. You know how 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.560 much mongerl be with the company. Everybody reaches their moment 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:58.520 and you can't rely on single individuals forever. But I 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.920 think that there are many people at the company now 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.840 we're aware of all these issues and tapped in, and 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.439 I know that we now have a robust movement to 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:11.159 hold the industry account of ball. It's not even just 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:17.320 Google anymore. And that's it for this week's episode of Decrypted. 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.560 Thanks for listening. If you have a story to share, 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.439 or if you're a tech worker who's concerned about the 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.600 company work app, I'd love to hear from you. You 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.400 can write to us at Decrypted at bloomberg dot net, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.120 w I'm on Twitter at Alistair m bar and I'm 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.240 at Pierre get Curry. And please help us spread the 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.919 word about our show by leaving us a rating or 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.160 review in your favorite podcast app. This episode was produced 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:45.960 by Pierre get Curry and Lindsay Cratterwell. Our story editor 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:49.080 was Aki Eater. Thank you also to Ann vander May 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.280 and Emily Abusa. Francesco Leavie is head of Bloomberg Podcast. 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:54.640 We'll see you next week.