1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Google is in the midst of a major upheaval. It's 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: not an understatement to say it could change the way 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: the world's largest Internet company operates forever. Since it was founded, 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: Google has had a special relationship with its employees, especially 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: the engineers who write the software code that runs the 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: services we love and have come to depend upon, things 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: like online search, maps, Android phones, and the Chrome web browser. 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: Google pays these people very well. Famously, working at Google 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: also comes with tons of perks, like swimming pools and 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: free food. But what's really unique is the amount of 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: responsibility and autonomy the company gives staff. Google shares an 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: unusual amount of internal company information with its employees and 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: encourages them to speak up about things they disagree with. 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: Over the years, everything from app designs and search results 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: to what kind of kale should be served in the 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: company kitchens has been up for debate, and as a result, 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: Google services and products have benefited from the collective intelligence 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: of many of the world's smartest engineers. It's a big 19 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: reason why the company's offerings are so user friendly and 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: why they make billions of dollars in profit every quarter. 21 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: And this symbiosis ran pretty smoothly until about two years ago. Now, 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: after a series of controversies and protests, some workers are 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: openly at war with Google. It's already duailed important business initiatives, 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and its sparking employee uprisings at other tech giants like 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: Amazon and Microsoft. We're going to take you inside these 26 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: foundations shaking developments with Irene Nap, a self taught senior 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: software engineer who's been at Google for almost five years 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: working on security and privacy projects. I'm Pierre Gadkari, and 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm Alistair Barr. You're listening to Decrypted, So Alista tell 30 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: us more about Irene. I first met Irene last year 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: at Google shareholder meeting. Irene was there speaking in favor 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: of a proposal to hie executive pay to progress on 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion. Irene has had a front row seat 34 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: throughout the last two tumultuous years at the company, either 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: by being personally involved in protests or via relationships with 36 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: co workers on the front lines. Irene is trans and 37 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: goes by the gender pronoun they or them. They agree 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: to talk about all this, but not any private work 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: they're doing for Google. We met up last month at 40 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg office in Silicon Valley. Now I wanted to 41 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: get into the first time, maybe where Google management and 42 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: some of the workers maybe started parting ways a little bit. 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: So to me, things really got back to James the more. 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: In August of seen you published what we have all 45 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: called the mammos since then. Um, when thinking that about 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: people realize that there were many versions of the mammo. 47 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: I can't refined over a period to read circuit focus 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: stance for argument, which was this misogynist view that women 49 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: are not suit engineers. Let me quickly refresh everyone's memory 50 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: about this incident. A couple of years ago, Google was 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: facing accusations from a group of female employees that the 52 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: company was paying them less than men doing similar work. 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: Around that time, a long essay which had been circulating 54 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: on Google message boards got picked up in the press. 55 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: It was written by James Damore, who was an engineer 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: at Google at the time, and its central theme was 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: that men may be more suited to working in tech 58 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: than women. Offensive and harmful. That is how the CEO 59 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: of Google is describing an anti diversity memo written by 60 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: one of Google's male employees. Now, the engineer behind the manifesto, 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: which claims women are and how did how would you 62 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: rate Google's response to that crisis? The company fired him 63 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: after getting its little ducks in a row. The Google 64 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: software engineer behind this controversial ten page memo is out 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: gone after blasting diversity and women in the workplace. A 66 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: source of go I was pleased out that I was 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: not so pleased that there wasn't anything internal communication. Um, 68 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: and there were. There was a planned series of town 69 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: halls which was canceled actually about half an hour before 70 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: the first one would have happened. And why did Google 71 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: scrap these meetings so abruptly, iron said. Questions and answers 72 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: that had been prepared for the town halls were leaked 73 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: to the public. Then James Damore and other plaintiffs filed 74 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: the suit against Google, alleging violation of their labor rights. 75 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: The complaint included screenshots of internal company communications. Conveniently, all 76 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: the people who pomittedly agreed with their names had been redacted. 77 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: But you know, all of my friends had been named. 78 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: In fall, and many people began featuring on harassment websites 79 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: for Irene. This was the moment when Googlers began to 80 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: really work in unison to change things several of us 81 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: put together a petition UM and we did get a 82 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: meeting with the company's upper management the West time to 83 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: my knowledge that a petitioners had not resolved. The company 84 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: has some responsibility there because this is a part of 85 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: a social change which was enabled by the Internet. Um 86 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: and you know Google, Google is a big part of 87 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: the Internet, part of the Okay. So that's how it 88 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: all got started. What happened next, I'd say the next 89 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: big flare up between workers and Google management happened several 90 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: months later. It had to do with the project that 91 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: Google had in the works with the Pentagon to provide 92 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence to analyze drone footage. Internally, it was known 93 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: as Project may Even Now I mean and most other 94 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: workers didn't hear about this until details were leaked to 95 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: the press in March two thousand eighteen. Some three thousand Googlers, 96 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: as Google employees are known, have sent CEO Sumed Arpachai 97 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: an open letter asking him to end cooperation with the 98 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: U S Department of Defenses. Project may have it that 99 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: venture includes the secrecy around Project may Even seemed to 100 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: violate Google's actors for open communication with employees, and importantly, 101 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: it also veered away from the companies focus on consumer 102 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: products and into military work. As an engineer, I think 103 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: something perhaps a little bit different when I hear that. 104 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: I think most people think bombs. I think surveillance, because 105 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, the United States does have I fine drones 106 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: which could just survey an entire city at once. But 107 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: I don't think any government deserves that level of power. 108 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: I think it's too much. If I had wanted to 109 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: work for a defense contract, or if I'd wanted to 110 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: work for Key Martin, I would have done that. Google 111 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: employees didn't like working on artificial intelligence projects for the military. 112 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: They thought it was war work, so they demanded that 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: we the Google step back, and they did. Google committed 114 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: not to redo that contract. The best of my knowledge, 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: that has happened, although I have the strong feeling that 116 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: that the military may have simply hired some versity into 117 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: a startup and that they're still running it on, you know, 118 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: our public facing service. That last part is pretty damning. 119 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: Irone is saying that because Google's cloud services and many 120 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: of us AI tools are available for anyone to use, 121 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: there's a way for the company to continue helping the 122 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: Pentagon without directly working with it, so is that true? 123 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: I ask Google about this and several other points Iron raised. 124 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: The company declined to comment, but Google's top lawyer, Kent Walker, 125 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: has said that Google let the contract expire and worked 126 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: closely with the Pentagon to make the transition quote in 127 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: a way that is consistent with our AI principles and 128 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: contractual commitments. So Alistair, as I recall, the controversy over 129 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: Project Maven, died down after Google said it wasn't going 130 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: to renew the contract. But within a few months Google 131 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: was back in hot water with its workers again. Google 132 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: has been working on a secret project code named Dragonfly. 133 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: Dragonfly was a censored version of its search engine for China, 134 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: and so today the New York Times broke the news 135 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: about a protest letter signed by four hundred employer ease. 136 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: They wanted to quote raise urgent moral and ethical issues, 137 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: saying currently we do not news about this secret project. 138 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: Dragonfly caused an uproar inside Google once again. I found 139 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: out through the press, and I was frankly shocked. Of 140 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: course this was going to be a censored search engine. Um, 141 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: I saw a version of the search result page, and 142 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, working at Google, the search result page, we're 143 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: all well aware that it has a very high standard 144 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: to be neutral, to reflect the world as it is, 145 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: which is not the only possible moral choice, but it 146 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: is the moral choice that has been consistently made, and 147 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: that the company's reputation is built on um And to 148 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: see a version of that page where with a search 149 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: for Tianeman Square, which had I believe the first result 150 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: was something about the myth of Tanneman Square and that 151 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: it didn't happen, or something to that effect, So I 152 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: mean and other employees this undermined as the reason Google 153 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: exists to organize the world's information and make it universally 154 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: accessible and useful, because you know, if if Google can't 155 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: be remid on to say what's true, who can? Who 156 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: do you trust? Project Dragonfly also divided staff. There were 157 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: other employees who argued that providing services to China's huge 158 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: population was aligned with Google's mission, But in Washington it 159 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: was a double punch. This combination of Google withdrawing from 160 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: a US military contract while simultaneously building a search service 161 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: that would help an authoritarian communist government censor information. It 162 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: was too much for some politicians. Eventually, Google CEO Sunda 163 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: Pichai had to testify in front of Congress to explain 164 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: himself that happened in December. So I want to ask 165 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: very specifically, are any employees currently having product meetings on 166 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: this question, on this Chinese project and where, if not, 167 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: when did those end. We have undertaken an internal effort, 168 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: but right now there are no plans to launch a 169 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: search service in China. As I said earlier, are there 170 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: any current discussions with any member of the Chinese government 171 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: on launching this app? Currently we are not in discussions 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: around launching. And President Donald Trump was commenting on this 173 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: as recently as March. In a tweet, he said, quote, 174 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: Google is helping China and their military, but not the US. Terrible. 175 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. As two thousand and eighteen progressed, 176 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: it really started to feel like the clashes between Google 177 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: management and workers were heating up in a way we've 178 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: never seen before. The Dragonfly controversy was still playing out 179 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: in Washington when the next bombshell landed And what was that? 180 00:10:58,160 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: Here was a story published by The New York Time 181 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: in late October, and it said that Google had given 182 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: one of its top executives, a man called Andy Rubin, 183 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: who co created the Android mobile operating system, a massive 184 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: ninety million dollar exit package, even though he'd been accused 185 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment and an internal investigation by Google had 186 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: found the allegation to be credible. Andy Rubin has said 187 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: reports about his conduct and departure from Google misrepresented the facts. 188 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: I knew that was in the works. Um. I was 189 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: very at least it was possible to tell that story, 190 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: and it was possible to gather testimony from so many 191 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: people that it was simply an incontrovertible I fl um. 192 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: And the response was pretty much a media I think 193 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: it was within a matter of days the walkout happened, yea. 194 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: And who came up with that? That? Did that start spontaneously? Yes? 195 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: Actually it was a number of people who had previously 196 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: worked little that I gathered that they had been doing 197 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: things very similar to the kinds of efforts I have 198 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: been doing. You know, I came from a remote part 199 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: of that campus that day I headed down UM to 200 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: join the It was really a protest atmosphere, UM and 201 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, all my sign not okay Google, and hear 202 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: what people had to say and see the real strength 203 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: and numbers, and then I believe the final number was 204 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: twenty thousand people worldwide structural change in the name of 205 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: transparency accountability. Google tried to contain the rage by going 206 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: along with the protest to some degree. CEO sund Our Pitch. 207 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: I made sure that managers could make arrangements to cover 208 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: for staff who wanted to take part. And how how 209 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: did the company restpond because in a way, in a 210 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: way they were kind of supportive. I think they at 211 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: us a table of like pagels and coffee, a joke 212 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: like the revolution will be catered. But then I've realized 213 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: it's not it's not really a joke. It's um it's 214 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: actually a very common management tactic to portray any descent 215 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: as officially sanctioned fit for you personally. What what do 216 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: you think of the most important things to actually have 217 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: changed so far? I think the biggest thing that has 218 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: changed is that Google's understand that we need to talk 219 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: to each other or we won't understand what's going on 220 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: their company if we don't, you know, share our stories, 221 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: we won't. No, we'll just all be compartmentalized. And everyone 222 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: who's going through something horrible, something like any of what 223 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: any of the women who spoke to that reporter experience 224 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: they'll just think, Oh, this is just me. I'm alone. 225 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm the crazy one, which is certainly how companies 226 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,479 Speaker 1: everywhere have always tried to make people feel in those situations, 227 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: and Google is no exception. Alista, what's happened to Irene 228 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: and all the other Google workers who have been protesting 229 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: so much in the last couple of years. I can't 230 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: imagine Google is very pleased with them. Well, some employees 231 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: said recently that Google has retaliated against them, so I 232 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: brought that up with Ireen Personally, what I have experienced 233 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: is everybody I know, everybody who's doing positive change of 234 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: the company, UM, who's working to make place better, UM, 235 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: has been feeling disheartened, has experienced, you know, something, even 236 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: if it's even if it's small, even if it's an 237 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: interaction with HR where they say, um, you know, step 238 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: back from communicating. I'm my internal mailing lists and you say, UM, well, 239 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: are you telling me that I have to do that? 240 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: Or are you suggesting? And they say, oh, I'm just suggesting. 241 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: And then afterward they follow up and they try to 242 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: get it in writing that they told you you have to. 243 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: When you follow up and say, no, I that's not 244 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: my recollection for meeting. It was just advice. Correct, you're 245 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: not telling me that I can't and why why why 246 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: would they do something like that? Just a difficult tactic. 247 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't think there are any different from any other 248 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: company in that regard. It's um you know, establishing a 249 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: contemporaneous written record of what happened is likely to carry 250 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: more weight than your testimony about how that conversation really went. 251 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: Some protesters say they've been demoted or had responsibilities taken away. 252 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: One of these people is Meredith Whittaker. She's a Google 253 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: researcher who specializes in AI and co founded a group 254 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: called AI Now that studies the impact of this technology 255 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: on society. So she founded a nonprofit called AI Now, 256 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: which you know, in my opinion as an engineer who's 257 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: work is relevant to this stuff, is doing absolutely incredible work. 258 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: Meredith was told, and I the form of it was 259 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: a bit ambiguous. I think that she would not be 260 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: able to focus on that work in her capacity at Google, 261 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: and that the company's priorities were no longer online where 262 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: they are now, which is a startin thing to say, 263 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: since it's like saying the company's priorities are no longer 264 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: relige with what's good for the world. Then in May 265 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: some Google is organized a sit in to share stories 266 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: of retaliation by the company. But this event was a 267 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: lot smaller than the walkout protest. Google has policies to 268 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: prohibit retaliation at work and provides ways for workers to 269 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: apport such behavior, and it investigates all reports. But I 270 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: mean said the company didn't sanction the sitting. Combined with 271 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: the reports of retaliation, people may have felt nervous about 272 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: taking part. I think this is the test of um, 273 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, can they get rid of what they must 274 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: view as the troublemaker saying all that work? I think 275 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: everybody else is watching to see what happens to us, 276 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: the poor group. And how do you feel It sounds 277 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: like you feel a bit targeted, yes, now as an individual, 278 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: as a member of that group, And what do you 279 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: think is going to happen to the group? I think 280 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: we're wrong to wear I think the company tactics here 281 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: show a great desperation. They wouldn't do anything so blatant 282 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: if they had any better options. Um. I think they 283 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: know how the world views this, now that they know 284 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: that Google isn't some magical place where everything is perfect, 285 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: that it's a company like any other corporation, um like 286 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: any other multinational corporation that you know, ultimately tries its 287 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: best to think of people's interchangeable. Okay, I want listeners 288 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: to stop and mull that last comment for a second. 289 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: I've been covering Google on and off for about five years, 290 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: so this is shocking to hear. Co founder Larry Page 291 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: has always wanted Google to be an unconventional company, but 292 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: here I mean is saying this is no longer the case. 293 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: So Ali, I'm curious about whether all of these protests 294 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: by employees are starting to hurt Google's business in any way. 295 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: I think it could for sure. I think Google's ability 296 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: to hire and keep talent is a really under appre 297 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: created part of its success. And you know, these these 298 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: protests really are are all about how that special relationship 299 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: between Google and its workers has started to break down. 300 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: So it could be it could be a lot harder 301 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: to keep hold of talented people or higher new ones. 302 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: And so what about Google's actual businesses. You know, we've 303 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: already heard that Google had to step away from Project Maven, 304 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: which is a valuable contract that could have led to 305 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: more business. So there are other projects that are at 306 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: risk in a similar way. I think the main thing 307 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: to look at here is Google's cloud computing business. This 308 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: is the business of where you basically have a bunch 309 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: of servers and data centers and you rent them out 310 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: to other companies. And Amazon and Microsoft really lead in 311 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: that business. It's a really booming industry and Google is 312 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: third and a bit late to that business. Now. A 313 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: big cloud customer in the US is the US military 314 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: and the border US government. So if officials worry that 315 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Google staff are going to keep derailing projects like Maven, 316 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: that could make them pick Amazon or Microsoft, you know, 317 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: when other contracts come up forbidding. And what about the 318 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: popularity of the CEO, Sunder Patty. He's historically been quite 319 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: popular within the company, and I wonder if that's beginning 320 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: to change at all. So there was a an internal 321 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: employee survey that actually Google does it every year that 322 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: this latest one, which came out in around early two 323 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: thousand and nineteen, again got leaked into the press. We 324 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: wrote about it as well, and it showed that among 325 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: employees sunder pitch i is still still has a solid rating, 326 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: but actually it went down by by more than ten 327 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: percentage points compared to compared to the previous years, So 328 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: there has been there has been a drop in the 329 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: way that employees think about him, and over the last 330 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: few months, pitch I has had to address the protests 331 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: from workers. He said that Google has listened to concerns 332 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: about the way the military users AI, and the company 333 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: has made quite a few changes in response. He's also 334 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: said that employees should be able to choose what they 335 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: work on, but he emphasized that Google is going to 336 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: continue working with the U. S. Military. Here's a clip 337 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: of him talking about this in November the New York 338 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: Times conference. We don't run the company by referendum, and 339 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: I think, you know, there are many things good about 340 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: We've given employees a lot of wars and out of 341 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: which we've done well as a company, and I think 342 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: it's part of the process. I think other companies may 343 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: not be used to it. And so it looks like, 344 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, that is how everything works, but that's not 345 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: how everything works. Our positions we make, which they may 346 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 1: not often you frustrated though, and then coming back to Irene, 347 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how they're feeling at this point because employees 348 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: have managed to push through some real change at Google. 349 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: At the same time, these recent reports of retaliation must 350 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: not be very encouraging. Yeah, I did ask them about that. 351 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: I wondered looking back over this roughly a year, even 352 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: more than a year, Um, do you think it's all 353 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: been worth it? So? Clas absolutely no question. I came 354 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: through the tech industry and to Google with the idea 355 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: as to go of making positive change in the world, 356 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: and I still feel that Google does that in some 357 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: respects um. And I also I feel greatly privileged to 358 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: be in a position where I can make my own 359 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: positive change to the company, or at least try to. 360 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: And has this come at a personal cost to Irene? Yes. 361 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: Irene also talked about the toll of anonymous people goading 362 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: and harassing them online. Frankly, we're talking about white supremacists here, 363 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: and they are as shallow as you can possibly imagine, 364 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: perhaps more shallow. I think they They would say that 365 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: somebody like me is um, they might say effective, or 366 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: they would just express dis belief that anybody of my 367 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: role could possibly be somebody at all important than anybody 368 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: like me, you could do anything significant. I Rene managed 369 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: to remain calm through more than an hour of discussing 370 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: all this with me. The only time they really got 371 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: set was discussing how these anonymous harasses targeted Google co 372 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin. But you see the 373 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: founders are you know, they have Jewish backgrounds of various natures, 374 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: and so to these as Larry and Sergey, who are 375 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: brilliant engineers who invented the algorithm that the company is 376 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: built on, personally, um are simply nonentities because Jewish it's 377 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: just so shallow. It was clear to me from this 378 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: that I mean still loves Google at least what the 379 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: company used to stand for and what it could once 380 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: again be. Now, what do you think the future looks 381 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: for for both you? You and and Google and you 382 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: at Google? Excellent question. I don't know. You know how 383 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: much mongerl be with the company. Everybody reaches their moment 384 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: and you can't rely on single individuals forever. But I 385 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: think that there are many people at the company now 386 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: we're aware of all these issues and tapped in, and 387 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: I know that we now have a robust movement to 388 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: hold the industry account of ball. It's not even just 389 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: Google anymore. And that's it for this week's episode of Decrypted. 390 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. If you have a story to share, 391 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: or if you're a tech worker who's concerned about the 392 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: company work app, I'd love to hear from you. You 393 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: can write to us at Decrypted at bloomberg dot net, 394 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: w I'm on Twitter at Alistair m bar and I'm 395 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: at Pierre get Curry. And please help us spread the 396 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: word about our show by leaving us a rating or 397 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: review in your favorite podcast app. This episode was produced 398 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: by Pierre get Curry and Lindsay Cratterwell. Our story editor 399 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: was Aki Eater. Thank you also to Ann vander May 400 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: and Emily Abusa. Francesco Leavie is head of Bloomberg Podcast. 401 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.