WEBVTT - Catherine de Medici: We Heard She Ate Babies for Breakfast 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.800 Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shonda Land Audio in 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:11.720 partnership with I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to Criminalia, 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.560 when we explore the intersection of history and true crime. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.200 I'm Maria tre Marquis and I'm Holly Fry And in 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.320 today's episode, we're going to look at the life of 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:22.759 Catherine de Medici, who became one of the most well 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.760 known or maybe just most notorious queens when she became 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.520 Queen of France in the hundreds. And unlike some of 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.080 our other poisoners who may have been new to you, 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.320 you know her name. And that is because Katherine lad 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:39.800 a very big life and there is a lot in 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:46.960 the historical record about her. Really, right, we'll unpack that problem. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.320 Katherine may or may not have introduced the artichoke to France, 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.600 and she may have been at least partly responsible for 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.800 starting the French Wars of Religion. Nothing big, really, um. 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:02.640 She's also famous for being the mother of three three kings. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.560 Our primary focus though, today is to untangle whether or 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.920 not the accusations that Catherine was a homicidal poisoner actually 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.440 had any truth to them, or even were at least plausible. 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.399 Catherine may have been a Queen of France, but she 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.959 was not actually born in France. She was born in Italy, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.000 in Florence in April of fifteen nineteen. Her mother was 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.480 Madeline de la Tour du Verne, cousin of Francis, the 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.039 first King of France, and her father was Lorenzo de Medici, 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.720 who was the ruler of Florence and had several other titles, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.080 but at the end of the day he was the 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.560 ruler of Florence. She Kather herself actually was said to 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.240 have exhibited the same physical traits as her father and 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.360 the rest of the Medici clan um. And we quote 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.680 this from a Venetian envoy um right around the time 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:08.000 of Catherine's forty birthday. She was described as her mouth 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.720 is too large and her eyes too prominent and colorless 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:17.120 for beauty. I dream that one day someone will write 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:21.359 that about me. Your eyes, Holly, are too colorless. I'm 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:27.519 dead inside. Um. I think that's where it comes from. Right, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.560 She's got the shark, guys. But this is not the 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.520 only way that she was described. She was also described 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.600 as quote a very distinguished looking woman with a shapely figure, 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:42.520 a beautiful skin, and exquisitely shaped hands. So this is 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.880 clearly an eye of the beholder situation, right, I mean yeah, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.320 I mean if you like hands, like she's got the 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.480 dead eyes and gorgeous hands. Uh, we'll see. I mean 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.120 like hands do come up a little bit later. So, um, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.160 she was she's from a famous political family. The Medicis 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:06.680 were UMU the ruling wealthy class of Tuscany in Italy, 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.080 which was they're also known as the House of Medici, 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.200 and they came to their wealth and political power long 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.880 before Catherine. It was back in the thirteenth century and 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.880 um primarily they came to it through banking and commerce. 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.640 But if you know the Medicis, but probably banking is 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.399 not the first thing to do. No, no, not at all. 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.520 It's like a really good interest rates um three point two. 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:37.840 They went on to become patrons of Leonardo da Vinci, Barticelli, Michelangelo, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.600 and Galileo, among other names that you would recognize today. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:46.320 They were considered the first family of the Italian Renaissance. UM. 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.440 But the Catherine herself, her story is it begins tragically. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.240 So she was orphaned when she was less than a 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.120 month old. So when she was two weeks old, her 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.800 mother died. Her father's death, which was probably the result 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:03.360 of syphilism, happened very quickly after her mother, and she 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:07.480 spent her childhood being cared for and educated in convents, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.720 and then in fifteen thirty three, when she was fourteen, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.840 Catherine's uncle, who happened to be Pope Clement the seventh, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.320 arranged for her to marry the Duke of Orleans, calling 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.600 it the greatest match in the world, in the world, 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:25.880 I mean, I like how he builds it, like my 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.080 wrestling matches. I thought I was like like w W 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.159 E or like like a monster truck race. He's like Sundays, 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.680 there's like a monster truck marriage thing that we can 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:42.919 put together. Here, everybody's got a little flag, you know. Um. So, 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.360 the duke who would become her husband, he was the 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.280 second son of the King of France UM and he 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:50.719 despite being the second son, he did go on to 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.680 be crowned um. He was crowned Henry the Second in 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:59.080 March of Fife. So during her first ten years of marriage, 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.040 Catherine lived with the fact that Henry the Second had 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.520 a mistress, Dianne de Poitiers, who had been his caregiver 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:12.120 during his childhood. That's got some baggage. We're not unpacking today, 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:18.400 and we're just gonna let that stay where it is. Oh, Henry, right, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.839 Deanne had all of the influence, and Henry actually wore 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:28.279 her colors just sort of a way to symbolize his 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.200 his affinity for her rather than his wife Katherine's, which 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.760 had to be both just personally upsetting any embarrassing. Can 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.320 you even imagine she would be at different various you know, 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.400 events that were happening, and there's Henry and like whatever 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.240 the Diane wore, you know, and she just had to 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:49.200 sit there and clap, just shove it all down inside 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:56.400 Katherine and I'll be fine. So Henry's mistress actually kept 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.000 all of the influence that she had over him through childhood, 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.280 it and into adulthood. Um she kept it through until 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:08.159 Henry's death. She was always there. And it took for 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.840 Catherine years of living with infertility and some extraordinarily humiliating 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.800 treatments for that infertility, often involving urine and animal parts, 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.040 before the cause of the problem that they were having 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.599 she and Henry conceiving a child was finally uncovered. What 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.880 actually was revealed was that the king had a physical 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.800 issue called hippospadius, which makes conception really difficult. Oh, I 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:37.960 was gonna say, also, he probably had to have sex 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.520 with her like regardless of the fact that he had 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.520 a physical issue, you know, I mean, he was doing 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.760 it with Diane, so like they needed to be in 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:48.760 the same room as well, So for ten long years 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:54.320 like this is this is crazy. So even though this 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.400 was revealed to be a problem of Henry's physiology, Catherine 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.000 was still considered to be the and to blame, and 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.839 she was often called frigid by the people at court 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.600 and the people of the country. Yes, so society was 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.120 not nice to her at this time. Um. And So 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:14.640 Henry had one living brother, UM, who was unmarried and childless, 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.560 and I can only imagine that that would have made 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.840 Catherine feel like the entire fate of that dynasty was 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.520 in her hands. Um and so for her to have 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.320 that first child was just incredibly important. There are actually 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:31.560 even some accounts of Catherine tearfully pleading with the King, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.320 her father in law, Francis the first before they had 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.640 ascended to the throne, to please allow Henry to marry 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.080 a woman who could give him an heir. But Francis 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.720 the first was not interested in this. He considered their 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.120 marriage to be God's will and thus not something that 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:53.320 could be dissolved. Greatest pairing in the world. I think 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.640 he was on board with Pope right. The Pope made 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:01.760 it happen, So it's God's will, God's will. Okay, so 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.320 ten years. It took ten years of their marriage and 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.240 all of his treatment of fertility treatment, societal treatments. Catherine 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.160 finally gives birth to her first child with Henry UM 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.760 and after that they went on to have a total 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:20.120 of ten children, UM, of whom seven survived into adulthood. 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.320 That was four boys lived and and three girls. UM. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.240 Her final pregnancy was just terrible and tragic, and she 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:31.480 was pregnant with twin girls. UM, it wasn't going well. 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:33.319 One of them died in the womb, the other died 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.959 shortly after delivery, and Catherine herself almost died giving birth 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.200 to them. And that was the last time, um, that 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:44.600 they tried to have children. Uh. Yes, it is not 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.320 really within the purview of a poison podcast to discuss it, 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.160 but if you ever just in the market for a 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:56.040 really horrifying pregnancy story, look that one up. It's gruesome. 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.480 So Before we move on, we're gonna take a little 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.280 breather of our own, and when we return, we will 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.480 talk about France's teenage kings and why they had no 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:16.199 interest in the throne. Welcome back to Criminalia. We're about 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.040 to talk about how much Catherine's life changed about the 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:24.040 time she turned forty. So Catherine is best known for 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.800 being the Queen consort of Henry, the second of France. 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.000 Consort in this context means that she did not come 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.720 from a royal bloodline and that she became a queen 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.640 through marriage, but she also ruled as queen regent for 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.200 her two sons, Francis and Charles, who came to power 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.040 when they were just fourteen and ten, respectively. Um, I 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.239 can't imagine any ten year old really being super interested 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:53.400 in ruling France so or prepared. I don't want to 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.200 be ruled by a ten year old, thank you so much, right, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.520 I mean, that's just that's just crazy right there. So 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.640 m her third son, Henry, also came to power and 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:04.880 she remained He was an adult when he did, but 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.440 she remained heavily influential in his court too. So if 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.520 you actually add up all of the years that Katherine 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.560 was ruling as a regent and was the de facto 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.840 ruler of France. It totals two about thirty years, which 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.040 is amazing, amazing, Like who gets to say they ruled 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.160 France for thirty years and a woman Catherine de Medici. 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.680 That's who Catherine gets too. She doesn't need anybody to 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:31.040 wear her colors. She's got her own colors. So her 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.800 life actually really begins to take shape around this time 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.960 when she's forty years old. Um, she's got teenagers, she's 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.960 got a four year old. Um, she has a husband 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.079 who um it was in an accident. Uh So Henry 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.119 was killed um in a crazy sounding um and certainly 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.680 painful sounding jousting incident. Yeah, this is another one. If 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.120 you're squeamish, maybe like la la la for the next 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:00.720 ten seconds. So Amazingly, after he took a aunts in 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:05.079 the eye and into his brain, Henry the Second did 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.840 not immediately die. He in fact went on to live 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:14.480 for ten we're imagining very long days. So Henry did die, um, 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.040 and when he did, his eldest son, Francis, who was fourteen, 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.360 was proclaimed king. So, just in case you're wondering, why 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.800 didn't Catherine ascend to the throne. She was never able 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.119 to rule his queen because women were excluded from succession 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:33.280 to the throne under Sala law in France. So then 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.200 let's take a moment and talk about Francis. Francis was 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.400 always considered weak. He was young, and by week I 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.880 mean physically weak. Um, and he was never particularly interested 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.040 in being the King of France or in charge of 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.599 anything or royalty. I kind of imagined him as a 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.880 kid who liked to sit in his room and play 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.080 video games with his friends. Uh, they didn't have Xbox. 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.960 Then think of how history would change if they had. Um, well, 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.200 we wouldn't have ten year old kings. Even though he 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:10.760 was a ten year old, he was a husband. He 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.840 had been married to Mary Stuart, Queen of Scott's, when 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.520 he was just four years old, and at that time 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:22.400 Mary was six, so sugar an older woman. It sounds 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.880 off putting and really strange to modern ears. Obviously it is, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.760 But this sort of thing happened often when it came 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.440 to arrange marriages among royal families as kind of a 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.200 whole uh you know, political move These marriages were meant 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.440 to be alliances, and in this case, an alliance between 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.559 France and Scotland. It had nothing to do with love, right, 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.240 I mean thinking it more like a business transaction that 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:50.000 involved her children as ponds. Um. Not that that's much better, 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.800 but it would at least let us get away from 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.000 any of the romantic notions that we today hold with marriage. Right. 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.839 And history suggests that it was actually Mary who ran 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:05.199 things instead of Francis, much to Catherine's displeasure. And since 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.360 he was only a teenager, it was Catherine who was 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.960 technically in charge as Queen Regent and not Mary. So 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.200 it's not surprising to discover there was constant friction. Can 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:20.400 you even imagine? So? Um, it didn't actually go on 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.160 for very long. Francis only ruled for less than a year. Um. 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.840 And he too died reportedly from something fairly minor like 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.880 an ear infection um or you know, I kept coming 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.240 across ear infection, uh, something small that today we would 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.600 just have drops to take care of. Uh. He's always 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.199 described as having a weak constitution. Um. And soon after 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.319 Francis died, Katherine made sure that Mary had a one 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.720 way to get back to Scotland. Thank you for your service. 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:52.960 We're done now. Pink slipped so Henry and Catherine's second 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.280 son at this point, Charles, was crowned King Charles the 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.280 Ninth at age ten. Because of his age and his 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.000 lack of interest in being king again, I don't want 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.959 to be ruled by a ten year old. Uh. Catherine 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.920 once again acted as Queen Regent throughout his reign, which 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.559 was also fairly short, though not nearly as short as 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.640 his brother's. Charles died at age twenty four, so fourteen 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.120 years right, right, and um, I actually don't think that 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.000 she ever really gave up her ruling during his reign. 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.160 I don't think he ever turned onto it. I don't 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.680 think you ever got interested. I imagine when you've grown 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.520 up with all of the benefits and doing none of 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.480 the work, even when your age changes over to adulthood, 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.240 you're like this, this arrangement is still working for me 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.640 so exactly, Like I'm a team now and I've got 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.360 plenty of time to go look at the other royal 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.600 ladies while he ruled for me. Mom, you're doing a 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.080 great job, mom keeping up well, I'm sure Katherine was like, yep, 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.360 go out, I'm my god, I'm on it. Thanks, Thanks, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:59.840 got your homework right here. Yep doing it. It's rumored 0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:02.960 that Catherine had a favorite child, and I asked all 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:04.680 of my friends if favorite favorite child, and they all 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:06.280 lie and tell me that they don't. But I know 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.640 that it's true and that you all do. UM. When 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:13.280 Catherine's son Charles died, her son Alexander Edouard was next 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.920 in line to take a spin at being the king UM. 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:17.680 But he was an adult at the time. He was 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.000 twenty two when he came to the throne as King 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.320 Henry the Third. And one thing that we know for 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.000 certain about Catherine de Medici is that she wrote extensively, 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.960 both to her children and also to her European political peers. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.480 And while she was not technically serving as regent for 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.160 Henry the Third, since he was an adult, she was 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.800 hugely influential in his life and his reign. In this way, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.120 she really was UM. In fact, she wrote to advise him, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.800 for example, UM that when contemplating going to war, which 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.280 you know comes up a lot when you're a king, UH, 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.440 that he should remember that quote. Pieces carried on a stick. 0:15:55.160 --> 0:16:00.360 Big stick diplomacy is often attributed to US President Theodore Zavelt, 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.640 whose foreign policy was speak softly and carry a big stick, 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.720 you will go far. And and didn't Tony Stark say 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.760 that peace means having a bigger stick than the other guy. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.000 I think they both stole the idea from Catherine. I 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:20.200 think so too, uh so Off the battlefield though, UM Catherine, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.360 like her Medici relatives, UM, was also a huge patron 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.280 of the arts. Indeed, this is the part of her 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:30.360 I love, because she was known to commission drawings and paintings. 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.040 She had extensive architectural projects carried out UM and her 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.600 court was known for its extravagant entertainment UM and she 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:43.440 featured everything from plays, ballet and other types of dance, UM, jousting, 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:48.200 and she also had fireworks displays. Yes, she's considered to 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.440 have introduced the concept of ballet to France, and then 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.680 France kind of took it over for themselves. So Italian 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.560 born Katherine is also often credited with introducing a lot 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.040 of food innovations to France, something that France is known 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.600 for now. And really some of those seeds are with 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.680 Katherine's reign. She was sometimes called in in history books. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.119 She sometimes referred to as the foodie Queen, which I 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.000 actually didn't know. I thought this was particularly great about 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.320 her um. She is said to have introduced the fork 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.720 to the French table at a time when using a 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:24.680 fork was seen as pretentious, and she was also don't 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.000 use that, how I put it down, I love the 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.159 idea of someone like picking up a fork, and so 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.840 would be like, what are you the pope? We don't 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.200 want to be pretentious, but she She also introduced foods 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.680 to France that I think of today as being French, 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:46.560 like quint essentially French, like the puff pastry. Yeah, Catherine, 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:48.760 it gets a lot of things attributed to her. It 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.960 is also said that she introduced underwear to France. That's 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.320 a bunch more complicated topic and the truth is really 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.840 kind of less exciting than that makes it seem. In 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.320 addition to her love and of the arts, she was 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.679 also really curious about science. But remember that like science 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.760 at the time is a little bit different than science 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.159 and modern times. So like many of her peers, she 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.480 was known to regularly consult astrologers and it's with an L, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.840 not astronomers, because they were able to predict or they 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:18.760 at least they claimed they were able to predict the 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.800 future by the position of the stars um and this 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.960 was all considered just as important as art, literature and 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.600 all other studies at the time, you know, as one 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.280 does during the Renaissance. Astrology and astronomy very tightly linked 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.520 during this period, and Catherine also became an admirer of Nostradamus, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.399 who was her contemporary. But then her story starts to 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:43.600 take a turn and and in a strange way. Okay, 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:48.920 so um, so let me describe this Catherine. Um. It 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:53.280 was believed among some in French society that Catherine had 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:57.600 commissioned an amulet from Nostradamus um, and she wanted it 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.600 made from a mixture of metal and blood. Um. That 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.159 would be human and goat blood if we're going to 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.359 really get into the guts of this amulate. But it 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.719 may or may not have happened, right uh. And another 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.560 one of her contemporaries, the philosopher Jean Bodine, claimed in 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.399 his fifteen eighty book on Witchcraft, that Catherine invented the 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:23.880 black mass invented. That's that is a statement right there, right. 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.760 This would have actually been about nine years before her 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.160 death when he wrote this. But there is no record 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:34.000 of Katherine acknowledging or commenting on this claim. You know, 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:35.920 one of the things that I really like about Catherine 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.720 Um as we were learning about her for this episode, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.000 was that she doesn't really seem to read the comments, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.080 you know what I mean, Like she she knows that 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:47.840 they're out there, she knows that they're happening. If they're 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.679 not right in her face, she just sort of seems 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.719 to go on. She she doesn't put out any statement. 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.120 She has no PR department that is really worried about 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.480 whether or not she invented the Black Mass. She just 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.240 kind of nods along and does everything. I just I 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.520 thought that was great. I have a sneaking suspicion that 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.399 there's also an element of fine, let him think I 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:09.959 can do witchcraft, absolutely right, I mean, if you were 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.160 in charge of France when she wanted people to think 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.679 that she were a sorceress. Although I mean it's actually 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.520 highly unlikely she was a sorceress. Um. It's highly unlikely 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:20.960 that there's any truth to either of these allegations about 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:25.240 the Black Mass or the amulet Um. But the real press, Yeah, 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.760 it's the no no press is bad press ideology of 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:33.320 ruling exactly exactly. But what is worth noting is that 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.520 in France at this time, um Italians in general. Uh, 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:42.280 and most definitely Italian women. Um. They were very often 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.400 suspected of being poisoners or at least regarded as being 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.320 the murderous type, regardless of whether or not they actually were, 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.800 or whether they were in Italy or France. The French 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:57.719 just pointed and said poisoner, right, Uh, it was. It 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:00.600 was pretty well established truth and we got to use 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.200 the air quotes there in French society at the time 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.879 that Catherine ordered the poisoning of probably a handful of people. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.439 She was credited with being involved with the poisonings of 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.160 Jeanne Deaubray, who was the Queen of Navarre, as well 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.520 as the Cardinal of Lauren, Cosse, a Marshal of France, 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.600 and the Duke Donjou. It's also important to remember that 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:27.400 during this period in history, poison wasn't really well understood. 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.119 It was really hard for authority to determine whether or 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.440 not it was the cause of a person's death. Um. 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.080 And consequently, you can imagine that there were people accused 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.959 of being poisoners willy nilly, who weren't actually poisoners, as 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.200 well as people who poisoned and totally got away with it. Right. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:47.040 Remember this is a time when astronomy and astrology are 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:53.720 both considered equal sciences. What are it saying? So this 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.040 is another good moment where we're going to laugh ourselves 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.280 into a little break. But when we return, we're going 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:13.840 to talk about Katherine's alleged epic stash of poison. Welcome 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.320 back to criminal Lea, where we're about to talk about 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.520 the accusations that Catherine poisoned people with a pair of gloves. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.400 The massive Chateau de Blois has been home to many 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.280 notable members of the French aristocracy, including seven kings and 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:33.280 ten queens of France, and that includes Catherine. It was 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.880 known for its beautiful three story external spiral staircase, and 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:43.000 for its gargoyle downspouts, and it's five hundred plus rooms, 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:47.159 and and and the list goes. You know, it's it's 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:51.240 a real tert stream to show. Really, there's one room 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.320 in particular in this home that is famously part of 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.560 Catherine's legend because it was believed by many in her 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.280 at her time that she kept her stash of poisons 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:07.119 and a tiny apothecary style cabinet tree work that was 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.800 in the woodwork um of one of this particular room, 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:12.440 and it had as many as two hundred and thirties 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.280 seven individual drawers. It was interesting about this particular piece 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.040 of her story is that there is a story written 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.760 by the writer Alexander Dumont about a character named Queen 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:27.000 margot Um and that is Catherine's daughter Margaret, and she 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.920 was married to a Hugueno leader in a shrewd political 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:33.520 move as if there are any other types of right, 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.399 So this story, which was written by Alexandra duma Pair, 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:41.640 is based on real characters and events. But don't get 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.680 it twisted. That does not mean it is historical record. Right. 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:48.760 Not only do historians agree that Dumont took a very 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.520 wide artistic license in his work, he most certainly also 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.879 engaged in spreading a bit of propaganda about Catherine as 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:59.560 well as other influential figures. And he appears to be 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.360 the original source of this wall of poison's account, which 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:04.919 I love the idea of a wall of poisons? Are 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:07.720 you kidding me? But like, but he comes from this 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:14.640 like vaguely fictional, vaguely, very untruthful account of semiistory. Right, 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:17.600 it's just truthful enough that people believed the rest of it. 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.160 That was made up and as cool as a wall 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:27.520 of poison sounds. Historians believe that this was really more 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:30.880 likely a place where Catherine kept small objects or perhaps 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:36.040 confidential letters in all of those teeny tiny woodwork to drawers. 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:39.960 But regardless, like the French still could not give up 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.760 on the fact that they wanted Catherine to be a poisoner, 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.000 and this was just an idea that they kept harping on. Allegedly, 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:50.120