1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Tim o'bryen. Today's crash Course Florida versus Young Minds. Name 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: a flashpoint in the US culture wars, and then think 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: about how it intersects with education, and you're sure to 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: find Florida. The state's governor, Ronda Santis is a devoted 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: and ubiquitous culture warrior who appears to be mulling a 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: presidential bid, and he has put the public educational Florida's children, teenagers, 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: and college students on the front lines of a battle 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: over what is and isn't appropriate for the classroom. The stakes, 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: as DeSantis has to find them, involve preserving parents' prerogatives, 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: curtailing harmful discussions of race, gender, and historical injustices or 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: wokeism in his description, and reasserting the state's right to 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: be an educational arbiter. DeSantis' critics, myself among them, say 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: his policies are retroggressive and benighted and undermines students understanding 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: of their own bodies, minds, histories, and place in the world. 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: A lot of policies have been in play in all 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: of this. Today, we're going to focus on contentious debates 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: around how two subjects are taught, African American history and 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: sex education. Joining me today are Marlon Williams Clark, a 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: high school social studies teacher in Florida, and Lisa Jarvis, 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: a science columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. And we'll start with Marlon. Greetings, Marlin. 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: Hello Marlon. You were born in Florida and you were 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: raised there. What made you want to become a teacher? 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: Well, I will say that it wasn't my first option 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: for a career. I had always wanted to be a 27 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: sports and entertainment lawyer. 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 3: However, somewhere in college I was. 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: In public relations and communications and it seemed that everybody 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: around me knew that I would be a teacher except me. 31 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: So it was one of those callings type of thing. 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: And you know, it's not the best pay, But I 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: do enjoy what I do. I enjoy interacting with my 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 2: students and watching them, seeing their faces when they are 35 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: enlightened on new knowledge or they see things differently. 36 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: And how long have you been teaching? 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 3: Now? This is my eleventh year teaching. 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: Tell me briefly the name of the school you teach, 39 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: where it's located, and describe the school a little bit 40 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: to me. 41 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: I teach at Florida State University Schools in Taihlas, Florida. 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: It is a research lab school under the governance of 43 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: Florida State University. I teach high school social studies African 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: American history. As far as the demographics for the school, 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: the demographics imitate the demographic population of Florida. 46 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: So what are the demographics of the school then, like, 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: how does it break down. 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 3: Some rough numbers. 49 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: It's about seventy ish percent white, about twenty percent Black 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: or African American, maybe close to fifteen percent, and then 51 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: the rest is split between Hispanic Latino populations and Asian populations. 52 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: So fairly actually fairly reflective of the country at large, 53 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: not exact, but more or less in the same zone. Yes, 54 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 1: And how would you describe your experience as a teacher? Overall? 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 3: My experiences have been great for the most part. 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: I will say that there has been a change, I 57 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: guess as far as like self censorship and. 58 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 3: How far you can go. And this was even prior 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 3: to laws that have been passed in Florida to make 60 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 3: it that way. 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: But you know, even around the time of the election 62 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: or the twenty sixteen campaign season, it became tougher to 63 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: be a social studies teacher, especially for one like me, 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: where it's heavy on class discussions. And you know, my 65 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: number one rule is respect, respect yourself, respect others, respect 66 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: our facilities, but allowing a space for students to be 67 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: able to speak freely and learn from each other. And 68 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: so I would often have to bates. And around that 69 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: time it became very apparent that I couldn't do debates anymore. 70 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: It was becoming too contentious in the classroom. 71 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: What sort of set that in motion? 72 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: Well, as you spoke about the culture wars that are 73 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: happening right now, I would say that at the time 74 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: where former President Trump was the front runner, there became 75 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: this hard split of where students stood, and you could 76 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: see what households believed what because it filtered into the classroom. 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: And so in having those discussions, and I've been pretty 78 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 2: good about moderating discussions and assuring that everybody is respected 79 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: and feel safe, I guess it was a reflection on 80 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: what was happening in the political spectrum of this nastiness 81 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: that existed, and so the debates which Prior to my 82 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: students would have debates on contentious topics that people have 83 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 2: opinions about, but everybody was respectful. And then at that 84 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: particular time, it seemed that the respect was leaving and 85 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: it was, you know, everybody in their corners. And so 86 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 2: I made a decision just to not do debates anymore. 87 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: And of course that was me teaching US history, and 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: now I teach like all far of my classes are 89 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: now African American histrum. 90 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: So at the time in twenty sixteen, how long had 91 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: you been doing debates in your classroom prior to twenty sixteen? 92 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: Had you been doing them for several. 93 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 3: Years since I started teaching, And. 94 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: They had never become contentious before, they had never sort 95 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: of split into US versus them arguments. 96 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: No, it was not a nastiness, not people would stand 97 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 2: their ground in their opinions. 98 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 3: But it was a respectful debate. 99 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: And then it became a point where I was like, eh, 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: I guess I'm going to have to stop this, you know, And. 101 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: You would attribute that to the dynamics around the twenty 102 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: sixteen election itself. 103 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: That's what I think it was, you know, without actually 104 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: doing research and analyzing and everything, that's what it seemed 105 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: to be because I had not experienced that as a 106 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: teacher prior to that point. 107 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: Whereas these hard lines were drawn in the classroom. 108 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: And did you feel after twenty sixteen did those lines 109 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: get drawn even harder up until the present date? 110 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: I don't know. 111 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: Like I said, I stopped doing debates in the classroom 112 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: to try to avoid those type of situations. Now, I 113 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: will say, in my African American history class, it is 114 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: an elective course, so my students that are enrolled are 115 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: enrolled because they want to be in the class. They 116 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: want to engage with information, So it creates a different 117 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: dynamic for discussions. We don't really have any debates, but 118 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: we do have discussions around topics and it's very respectful 119 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: and you could tell that all of the students are 120 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 2: really wanting to learn, and I've witnessed where they've learned 121 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: from each other when they're bringing their own personal and 122 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: cultural experiences to the discussion. 123 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: Now, I want to zero in on a recent experience 124 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: you've had that attracted my attention and it's one of 125 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: the reasons we wanted to have you on the show. 126 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: You were also a member of a pilot program that 127 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: the College Board, a nonprofit that developed standardized tests in 128 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: curricula for college, set up last year to introduce a 129 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: multidisciplinary advanced placement high school course in African American History. 130 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: Tell me how did you get invited to join that 131 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: pilot program? 132 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: A mentor teacher of mine, she was teaching the African 133 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: American history class is here at the school, and I 134 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: believe it was the principal who applied for the school 135 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: to be a pilot school, and then my mentor teacher 136 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: ended up taking another job, and so I ended up 137 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: taking it up, and so went to the summer institute 138 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: for the course, the AP Institute in Washington, d C. 139 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: In July, and it's just kind of been blowing up 140 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: from there. 141 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: How did the class go, How did you enjoy teaching it? 142 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: And how did the students respond to it? 143 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: I loved it. First of all, this is a topic 144 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: that I'm very passionate about. And the reaction of my 145 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: students when we would engage in some of the topics 146 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: that were mentioned in the pilot, God, they were very 147 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: into it. Of course, it's an AP level course, so 148 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: there were some extensive readings, but everything also was again 149 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: in the pilot, so things would change. They didn't like 150 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: some of the reading all the time, but they very 151 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: much loved the topics and being able to engage in 152 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: it and bringing from the different readings. 153 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: And you could see where students, in a sense, they 154 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: were being affirmed, particularly my African American students, where there 155 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 3: wasn't a course for them to really engage in African 156 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: American history in that way. And so, you know, one 157 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 3: of the discussions earlier on in the school year was 158 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: a lesson that pulled off of Henry Lewis Gates essay 159 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 3: forty two Million Ways to Be Black, and so we 160 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: just kind of went through. 161 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: This tell tell our audience what the thrust of that 162 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: essay is. 163 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: Well, the key takeaway from it was we read it 164 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: and I started a discussion with you know, just throwing 165 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: out them what does it mean to be black? 166 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: And so of course you heard stereotypical things. 167 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: You heard things that people personally believe, you heard things 168 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: that people have experience with black people or things in 169 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: popular culture. And I also like threw up different pictures 170 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 2: of different people in society, so you know, like one 171 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: of them was Kanye West and Candice Owens, and so 172 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: it really pushed them to think that there is no 173 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: singular way to be black. 174 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 3: Blackness cannot be defined in a singular way. 175 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: And we came away with that is that if you 176 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: are black and you are walking and moving around in 177 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: this world, then that is the way to be black. 178 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: So you were asking provocative questions about core subjects around identity. Yes, 179 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: how did the white students in the class feel about it? 180 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: They were very engaged and if it was something that 181 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: they were not sure on, they would sit back and listen, 182 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: and if they had questions, they would ask. And so 183 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: those were the moments that I would see my white 184 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: students learning from my black students. But then on the 185 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: flip side, I would see my black students learning from 186 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: my white students because there isn't a lot of opportunity 187 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: to have an informed discussion, to ask questions without worrying 188 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: about somebody getting offended or lashing out at you, and 189 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: so it just really provided a way for them to 190 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: discuss with each other. And so like the white students 191 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: would say, you know, these are the things that I experienced. 192 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: I have questions about this, and you know, the black 193 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: students would answer those questions, and so it was it 194 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: was really a nice moment to see them learning from 195 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: each other, because, as we can see in our society, 196 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: there's a lot of adults that can't have those conversations. 197 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: Sit down and have those conversations today. 198 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: So imagine that a classroom with provocative questions, people having 199 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: a civil dialogue about potentially thorny topics and growing as people. 200 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: What more could we want out of a classroom? Well, 201 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: we're going to find out, Marlon. I want to pause 202 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: our conversation right there for a moment so we can 203 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: hear from our sponsor, and then we will come right 204 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: back to you. We're back with Marlon Williams Clark, a 205 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: high school social studies teacher in Florida. There were other 206 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: topics as well that got attention, and some fault lines 207 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: started to a merge around those outside your classroom, right correct, 208 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: tell me about some of the other topics that became contentious. 209 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: My experience when we were doing the pilot was very positive. 210 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 2: I had a lot of support from parents, I had 211 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: support from administration, I had support from other teachers because 212 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: it was also helping to fill in some gaps for 213 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 2: other classes. I don't know, particularly from what my standpoints 214 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: of what those thorny topics would have been that people 215 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: would have had problems with because we didn't have problems 216 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: with it. And so the only criticisms that I have 217 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: heard have come from those who are in power. 218 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: It has not come from community people. 219 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about that. Drafts of 220 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: possible content of the classes emerged. There were elements of 221 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: it that some took issue with. Critical race theory was 222 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: seen as a devastating topic that was pervading the entire curriculum. 223 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: The Black Lives Matter movement was part of the curriculum. 224 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: Some people took issue with that being taught. The notion 225 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: of reparations for slavery and its associated depredations was considered beyond. 226 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: The pale queer studies was part of this. People had 227 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: issues with whether or not your population of students should 228 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: be taught that. The college board continued to revise this 229 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: curriculum in conversations with parents and local school boards and teachers, 230 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: but then in January, Governor DeSantis said he would ban 231 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: the curriculum entirely. Florida State Board of Education let the 232 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: college Board know that it was unhappy too, and went 233 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: as far as to say that the ap studies class 234 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: you were teaching quote significantly lacks educational value. That invited 235 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: some more infighting, and then the college board ordered down 236 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: the curriculum further, tell me your thoughts about all of 237 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: that when that started happening, How did you feel about that? 238 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: Well, first, personally, it was quite offensive as a black 239 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: man in America who is not only passionate about this 240 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: particular subject matter, but passionate about the fact that my 241 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: history should be taught just as much as anybody else's. 242 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: And when it came out saying that it lacked significant 243 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: educational value or you know, with things about critical race theory, 244 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: which is not taught in K twelve schools. I'm currently 245 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: working on my doctorate and even when working on my master's, 246 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard anything about critical race theory my doctorate studies. 247 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: Which historically has been where it's been taught at the 248 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: college level or even the postgraduate level. It's really not 249 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: pervading America's kindergartens, is it. 250 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: No, it's not not at all. And so it's just 251 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: become this, in my personal opinion, CRT critical race theory 252 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: has become this stamp for broader things that people don't 253 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: want to talk about, and so when we look at 254 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: African American history, it has always been contentious. 255 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 3: Even when Carter G. 256 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: Woodson, who is known as the father of Black history, 257 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: as he started Negro History Week and then later on 258 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: change to Black History Month, when he was trying to 259 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: push for African American or Black studies courses to be 260 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: at HBCUs in the thirties and the forties, there was 261 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: rejection from HBCU administrators. When we look at the nineteen sixties, 262 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: when black students protested to get Black studies into predominantly 263 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: white schools, there was a pushback against it. So anytime 264 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: that you are trying to include more about the black experience, 265 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: there's going to be pushback. And my reason or why 266 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: I believe that is because to really critically look at 267 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: black history means to hold up a mirror to America 268 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: that some people don't want to look at. 269 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: They rather have a mirror without a reflection. 270 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: And when the state government, the Department of Education came 271 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: out with their reasons and when they put out the 272 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: specific lessons that they had an issue with, I went 273 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: back to look at my pilot. God they were not there, 274 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: so I don't know where they got the information from. 275 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: Perhaps it was from an earlier draft of the course, 276 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: prior to the giving the pilot guide to the teachers 277 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: that were pobiting the course, but they weren't there. And 278 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: you know, they talk about the reparations movement, Well, guess what, 279 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: Black history is so linked to racism and racial violence, 280 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: and so there. 281 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,359 Speaker 1: Is a financial exploite. 282 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and financial expectation. 283 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: So there is a legitimate question about reparations, especially when 284 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: we look at you know, we go back to US 285 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: history and we talk about Japanese people being given reparations 286 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: for the internment camps during. 287 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: The World War Two. 288 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: So I feel that the reasoning for pushing back is 289 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: for their own personal political beliefs. 290 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: And you're saying not in the interest of exploring difficult 291 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: topics that might help our youngsters' minds grow. 292 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely not. 293 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: Again, I'm to keep saying this is my personal opinion 294 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: and not a reflection of any organization I'm a part of. 295 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: But they say they're pushing it back against critical race theory. 296 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: I personally feel like they're pushing a beast critical thinking. 297 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: They don't want the kids to think critically about subjects, 298 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: and you know, how black history is taught on the 299 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: surface level. You know, we're not going to really talk 300 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: about the fact that the hard history of learning about 301 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: where people of African descent came from to this part 302 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: of the world, the backbreaking work they did to build 303 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: this country. Then there was the Civil War, which they 304 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: would rather have the narrative that it was not about slavery. 305 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 2: I said, well, anybody says that it's not about slavery 306 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: did not look at the manifest of the Confederate States. 307 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: They were very explicit with what they meant. 308 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: Then they don't want to talk about the hard part 309 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: of reconstruction and what followed after that. You know, they 310 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: rather talk about Martin Luther King and him having a dream. 311 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: But they also don't want to talk about the real 312 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: Martin Luther King, who actually said America owes black people 313 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: at check. 314 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: And let's remind our listeners that Martin Luther King got shot, correct. 315 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 4: You know. 316 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: After this whole battle emerged around the AP course and 317 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: what should and shouldn't be taught about African American history, 318 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: Florida Governor Rohna Santis banned it and then went even further. 319 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: He subsequently offered his own proposal to overhaul higher education 320 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: by emphasizing courses on quote unquote Western civilization. How did 321 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: you interpret that and where do you see some of that? 322 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: Leader When governors are saying this is the curriculum that 323 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: should be taught and it should only be about a 324 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: certain say swim lane of studies. 325 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: I think it's new language for white supremacy. I've made 326 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: jokes with friends. I said, you want to see some creativity, 327 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: look at white supremacy. There have been some very creative 328 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: laws in order to uphold that particular power structure. 329 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: He once said also that white. 330 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: Students shouldn't feel uncomfortable or discomfort when learning about history. 331 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 2: That totally the gates or neglects the feelings of black 332 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 2: and brown students sitting in history classes for so long, 333 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 2: especially black students, where it's almost like you don't have 334 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 2: any history of how much of US history is taught 335 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: because there's so much left out about the African American experience. 336 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 2: For him to go that route and also to try 337 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: to overhaul the higher education system, I think it's very shortsighted. 338 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 3: You know. 339 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 2: Maya Angelou dot Maie Angelou said, when people show you 340 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: who they are, believe them. And I'm believing him for 341 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: who he is showing himself to be I think it's 342 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: very shortsighted because it's going to disrupt and lower the 343 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: rankings of our Florida colleges and universities, and it's not 344 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: making our k TOIL system any stronger, you know, going 345 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 2: back and forth with the college Board and then proposing 346 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: to perhaps just do away with the college Board altogether. 347 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 2: I'm guessing that's under the assumption that every Florida student 348 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: wants to go to a Florida school for college. 349 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 3: It's just very unfortunate. 350 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: You raise an important thing for those kids who may 351 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: think they can't get the education they need in Florida, 352 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: they'd have to look to other states, and that's becoming 353 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: a troubling landscape as well. Last year alone, at least 354 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: three dozen states, most have them led by Republican legislatures, 355 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: introduced more than one hundred and thirty bills that sought 356 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: to limit how history, gender, and race are taught. So 357 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: this issue obviously has traction well beyond Florida. Even if 358 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: Desantus has become the movement's most visible standard bearer. What 359 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: does that mean to you as an educator, given that 360 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: these things you've been wrestling with in Florida are occurring 361 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: in other states as well. 362 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 3: Well. 363 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: I guess I would first respond to that by saying 364 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 2: education doesn't just exist within the classrooms, and by pushing 365 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: laws like this, what they are showing is the reason 366 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: why we should have courses like this. And like I said, 367 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: black history has always been contentious. Whenever we talk about 368 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: the history of slavery in America, it has been contentious. 369 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: The Daughters of the Confederacy did an. 370 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 3: Entire campaign to change how textbooks talked about slavery, to 371 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: make it that it was this nice system man. Slave 372 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 3: masters were nice to their slaves, and their slaves enjoyed 373 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 3: being in slavery. Our own governor here in Florida said 374 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: that nobody was worried about slavery or freeing slaves until 375 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 3: the Revolutionary War. What about the revolts and the rebellions 376 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: and all of the enslaved people who continuously try to 377 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 3: run away. It's very troubling. I think it's a reflection 378 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 3: on the fact that our country's history has not been 379 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: told in a holistic way, but more in a propagandic way. 380 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: And so anyone or any organization that tries to do 381 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: away with the propaganda to give a holistic view of 382 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: what makes America America. There's a pushback because some people 383 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with having to face the fact that America 384 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 2: became the power structure that it is on some things 385 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: that we try to teach our children not to be like. 386 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: You know, it seems to me that the overarching issue 387 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: and focus here is this what's an education? And what 388 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: does it mean to be an educated person? So help 389 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: me with those How would you answer those questions? Let's 390 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: start with the first one, what is an education? 391 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: An education for me is to be enlightened. A lot 392 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: of times when I talk about this, I talk about 393 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 2: it from the standpoint of a black men in America 394 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: and a descendant of enslaved people who were legally forced 395 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: not to get an education. So that tells us already 396 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: that education is a way to success, a way to 397 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: an enlightenment, a way to self dignity. It's kind of 398 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 2: like the foundation to freedom. Now, what does it mean 399 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: to be an educated person? To be an education person 400 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 2: is to be an inquirer, an inquisitor, a curious person. 401 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: That's something I always push my students to be curious 402 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: because I also know that a lot of students don't 403 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: like history, they think it's boring, but I always teach 404 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: them that you have to approach history and other subjects 405 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: with curiosity, got to have some questions and try to 406 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: find out why. 407 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: So I've got one last question for you. We always 408 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: ask our guests what they've learned from a disruptive moment 409 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: that they're involved with, and tell me, what have you 410 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: learned from watching this debate unfold around African American studies 411 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: in Florida. 412 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think what I have learned is that people 413 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: are okay with ignorance, and it's very disturbing and unfortunate, 414 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 2: but it does seem that people rather not really engage 415 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 2: in information. 416 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: They want to go a by how they feel. And 417 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: that's fine. 418 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 2: Everybody's entitled to their feelings and as you're saying, therapy, 419 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 2: your feelings are valid. However, there's these things that we 420 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: call facts. There is primary sources, there are things that 421 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 2: put in place what is fact and what is you know, 422 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: your feelings. I've learned that there is more of a 423 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: willingness by younger people to engage in this information than 424 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 2: it is and people that are older. And that's not 425 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: to paint you know, all older people. I'm thirty five 426 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: going on thirty six, but I think it is a 427 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: reflection of how we have been as a society for 428 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: so long, and we are seeing the results of not 429 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: addressing things of the past. 430 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: Marlon, thank you for joining us today. 431 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 432 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: Marlon Williams Clark is a teacher at Florida State University Schools. 433 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: You can follow him on Twitter at Marlon dash wms 434 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: dash Clark. We're going to take a break to hear 435 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: from one of our sponsors, and when we return, we'll 436 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: be joined by Lisa Jarvis. And we're back with Lisa Jarvis, 437 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: a science columnist for Bloomberg Opinion and someone we're very 438 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: lucky to have in our ranks. Hey, Lisa, welcome to 439 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: crash Course. 440 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. Tim, I'm happy to be here. 441 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: You wrote a very compelling column recently, Lisa. The headline 442 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: was Florida bill would make puberty even more more awkward. 443 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: So tell us about the bill and then tell us 444 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about your column. 445 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 4: Right, there's a lot to unpack about Florida Bill ten 446 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 4: sixty nine, which is one of a cluster of bills 447 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 4: that the Florida Legislature is trying to pass that would 448 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 4: put boundaries on what you can and can't discuss in 449 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 4: public schools. This particular bill targets a lot of things. 450 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 4: Like many others, it sort of hinges on the idea 451 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 4: of whether or not you can discuss sexual identity and 452 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: use pronouns in school, But then it goes further and 453 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 4: tries to put boundaries on sex education, whether or not 454 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 4: students should receive instruction on human sexuality, including STIs sexually 455 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 4: transmitted diseases before the sixth grade. What got me particularly 456 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 4: incensed with this particular bill was that that includes discussion 457 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 4: of menstruation. So by the time most kids have reached 458 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 4: sixth grade, their twelve and the average age that most 459 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 4: girls have their first period it is eleven years and 460 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 4: nine months, So that means that half of the kids 461 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 4: who are in this class would not be allowed to 462 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 4: ask their teacher any questions about menstruation. I am really 463 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 4: frustrated by this. It feels like a real set backwards. 464 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 4: We've reached a point in society where we're much more 465 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 4: open about our bodies, embracing all of the changes that 466 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 4: kids go through during puberty, and this shuts that down 467 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 4: a lot of kids get their first period in school, 468 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 4: you know, and so I just keep imagining what it 469 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 4: would be like for a young girl to not have 470 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 4: a trusted adult that they could ask what was going on, 471 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: let alone have gotten that information from an adult ahead 472 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 4: of time. 473 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: Let's stop on one point you just brought up that 474 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: I think is very interesting to zero in on, which 475 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: is this idea that we've gotten more comfortable in our 476 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: society talking about our bodies and our biology and all 477 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: the attendant things that come with that. I could imagine 478 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: some people say saying, well, maybe easy for you to 479 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: talk about that, but not easy for me. So where 480 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: do we draw the lines around that, what's a healthy 481 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: way to think about when it is and isn't appropriate 482 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: to talk about some of those things in a classroom, 483 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: for example. 484 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 4: I guess my feeling is that I understand that parents 485 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 4: want to have some level of control over when their 486 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: kids learn certain information. One thing I think is very 487 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 4: important to point out is that most states do have 488 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 4: laws that allow parents to opt out of sex education. 489 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 4: And so I think passing laws that then preclude everyone 490 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 4: else from getting that information is troublesome to me. But 491 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 4: you know, I understand that some parents may feel differently 492 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 4: about the amount and extent of information kids should know. 493 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of good data to support 494 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 4: the idea that just normalizing talking about our bodies doesn't 495 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 4: lead to behavior that those parents are worried about, you know. 496 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 4: And so I think giving information is really important, and 497 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 4: school is an important partner in that. Just understanding, for example, 498 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 4: the names of your body parts in the process of puberty. 499 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 4: It's hard for me to understand why that could ever 500 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 4: be a problem for someone to know what's going to 501 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 4: happen to their body. 502 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm reminded of those saying this two words know thyself. 503 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I understand that everyone may not be 504 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 4: on the same spectrum of me in terms of openness 505 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 4: with my own child, or what I think should happen 506 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 4: in schools in terms of understanding your body. But I 507 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 4: just feel like information is empowering, and it's confusing to 508 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 4: me that we would be preventing kids from having the 509 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 4: information they need to understand themselves and make good decisions. 510 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: And is this particular battle that you wrote about. Is 511 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: this unique to Florida. 512 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: It's not. I think we've seen slide backwards data from 513 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 4: the Guttmacher Institute shows that overall, kids have been receiving 514 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 4: less sex education in the last five years sincenineteen ninety five. 515 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 4: That's astonishing to me. You know, I was this age 516 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 4: in the eighties and went to Catholic school where sex 517 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 4: education became a part of the curriculum, and so it's 518 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 4: sort of astounding to me to see that we would 519 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 4: be going backwards with this. A lot of the conversations 520 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: again Hinge on this discussion of sexual orientation and gender 521 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 4: identity or where there's a perception that kids are being 522 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 4: given information too young. But it's not just Florida. I 523 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 4: think there's a push in a lot of states to 524 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 4: return to a place of abstinence only education and set 525 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 4: boundaries around what information kids receive at what age at all, 526 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 4: if anything at all. 527 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, since we're aging ourselves together on the show, I 528 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: will note that I was in Catholic grade school in 529 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and I had sex education. 530 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. I have a very distinct memory of the weekend 531 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 4: long workshop that I sex education workshop that I took 532 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 4: when I was in Catholic school in the eighties. And 533 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 4: you know, I think there was an acknowledgment that it's 534 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 4: important for kids to understand their bodies and have information 535 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 4: and be able to use the right language to talk 536 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 4: about it. 537 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: I really like this paragraph from your column, and I 538 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: want to read it out loud for our listeners. As 539 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: the mom of a tween girl, I'm constantly amazed by 540 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: the wealth of resources about periods and puberty on the 541 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: market these days. While my generation had dog eared copies 542 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: of Are you there, God, It's me Margaret, my daughter 543 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: and her peers are lucky enough to have an entire 544 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: shelf full of body positive books. That sure sounds like 545 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: progress to me, but it obviously sounds like dangerous thinking 546 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: to some other folks. Why do you think that is? 547 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 4: Again, I have to go back to this constant attention 548 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 4: to gender identity and sexual orientation. It seems like it 549 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 4: starts there and then creeps into other areas, and a 550 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 4: lot of the books do cover this topic, But I'm 551 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 4: not sure I understand why having good information about your 552 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 4: body is threatening. I thought it was good timing for 553 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 4: us to have this conversation because just a week ago, 554 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 4: the movie version of Our There Got It to Meet 555 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 4: Margaret came out, and I went with a gaggle of 556 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 4: tween girls to see it this last weekend, and it 557 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 4: was a reminder to me, a good refresher of what 558 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 4: was in the book and what it was about, which 559 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 4: was really just about puberty and the awkwardness of being 560 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 4: a kid and trying to figure yourself out. And so 561 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 4: it's hard for me to think that children benefit from 562 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 4: not having the right information to navigate that process. 563 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: And this isn't just an issue that's in play in schools. 564 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: Corporate America recognizes that the world is evolving too, doesn't it. 565 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about CBS's product line 566 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: for tweens. 567 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 4: CBS Health and I hope others follow suits. Last year 568 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 4: said that they would cut the price of their period 569 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 4: products by twenty five percent, which was an acknowledgment that 570 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 4: women pay a pink tax is what they like to 571 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 4: call it. Essentially, you know, this is something that is 572 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 4: an unavoidable part of being a human, you know, and 573 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 4: these are expensive. I have I've gotten a request from 574 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 4: my daughter's school to send in period products because not 575 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 4: everyone can afford them, and so kids need them in schools, 576 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 4: you know, teachers are handing them out. So I think 577 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 4: whatever we can do to make these things more accessible. 578 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 4: Corporate America recognizes that it's in demand. 579 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: Lisa, we've talked about how some state governments view the 580 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: sex education debate, as well as how some corporations view it. 581 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: What about parents and the role they play? I liked 582 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: this from your column, offering guidance for adults. We should 583 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: be making these conversations easier, not harder, for all the 584 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 1: trusted adults in a child's life. Adults can't take all 585 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 1: the awkwardness out of puberty, but we can make it 586 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: easier by giving kids the knowledge they need to navigate it. 587 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: Maybe this is too sweeping and hard to answer, but 588 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: where do you see most parents landing in this particular discussion. 589 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 4: It's possible that I'm drawing from a biased pool of parents, 590 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 4: but I do feel like there's an understanding that kids 591 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 4: need to have the right language to talk about their bodies. 592 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 4: That matters on a lot of different levels. One is 593 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 4: just releasing the stigma and shame around really natural things 594 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 4: that we all go through. Half of the world gets 595 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,959 Speaker 4: a period, you know, So it's odd to me that 596 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 4: we would be so worried about talking about it. But 597 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 4: I also have been covering a lot of issues around 598 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 4: teen mental health lately, and one of the things that 599 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 4: we saw in so recent data from the CDC, which 600 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 4: does a survey every year of teen's risk behaviors, is 601 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 4: that more girls are experiencing sexual violence. And one thing 602 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 4: that I think is important to understand about sex education 603 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 4: is that it's not just about teaching kids what is sex. 604 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 4: It's about teaching kids how to draw boundaries, how to 605 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 4: be respectful. This idea of body positivity is about all 606 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 4: of us being able to be respectful of one another. 607 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 4: I think that's personally, I think that's really important. I 608 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 4: would think that most parents would want their kid to 609 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 4: have the right language, to be able to say no, 610 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 4: to understand what no means. Those are important conversations that 611 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 4: start happening early in a lot of schools that have 612 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 4: sex education throughout all of say forthright and up. 613 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: We were speaking with our previous guests about the debate 614 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: in Florida over African American studies, and I think of 615 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: that as almost a hearts and minds discussion and sex 616 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: that is about the body, and in some ways it 617 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: offers parallels to discussions about reproductive rights, the abortion pill, 618 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: and how individual rights intersect with the constitution and the 619 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: authority of the state, doesn't it. 620 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, it really does. I think in both cases there's 621 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 4: an effort to justify a desire to control people's bodily 622 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 4: autonomy to me, under the guise of protecting children. That 623 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 4: feels very clear when it comes to abortion, because there's 624 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 4: lots of people who believe that, right or wrong, they 625 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 4: are protecting an unborn child in their efforts have these 626 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 4: abortion bands. Bills like this one in Florida are also 627 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 4: sold as protecting children from ideas that parents and legislators 628 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 4: believe are dangerous. It also feels like it's worth drawing 629 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 4: a parallel to be the very real consequences of these 630 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 4: bills for the people on the other end of them. Right, 631 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 4: of course, we understand what that means when it comes 632 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 4: to abortion bands. That leads to unintended births, and I 633 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 4: don't think there's enough conversations among lawmakers in a time 634 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 4: of rising maternal mortality on how we're going to keep 635 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 4: pregnant people safe if they can't get an abortion, or 636 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 4: you know, ensuring that families have all the resources they 637 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 4: need to raise healthy kids. I think there's a parallel 638 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 4: there to sex ed where I don't think it's a 639 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 4: stretch to say that there's real consequences to not arming 640 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 4: kids with the information they need. We know, for example, 641 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 4: that absentence only education doesn't work, is not an effective 642 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 4: way to prevent pregnancies and STIs. I just mentioned this 643 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 4: idea that sex education covers a broad rage of topics, 644 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 4: whether that's understanding boundaries, how to navigate sexual violence, how 645 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,479 Speaker 4: to talk about those things and putting a language behind them, 646 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 4: how to understand self image and navigate social media is 647 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 4: another part of sex education. To me, there's very real 648 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 4: consequences in both situations to using these laws to prevent 649 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 4: people from having that kind of bodily autonomy. 650 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: And what have you learned from these recent battles over 651 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: the body and what it says about the state and 652 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: individual rights. 653 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 4: I mean, I struggle because it feels to me like 654 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 4: there's a somewhat infuriating contradiction going on right now. Laws 655 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 4: are being introduced under the guise of protecting parental rights, 656 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 4: you know, laws like this that want to pair back 657 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 4: access to information about sexual health. But at the same time, 658 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 4: in some of those same states, for example Florida, those 659 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 4: states are trying to pass laws that could, for example, 660 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 4: take a child away from a parent who is allowing 661 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 4: their child to undergo gender affirming care. So it feels 662 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 4: contradictory to me to sort of say parents know best, 663 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 4: but then also parents don't know best in the state 664 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 4: knows best. I don't understand the kind of logic of 665 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 4: the kind of collection of laws that are being passed. 666 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: Lisa, we are already out of time that went by 667 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: really quickly. Will you come back again? Sometimes? 668 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 4: I would love to? 669 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 3: Of course, you can. 670 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: Read Lisa Jarvis's fine work on Bloomberg Opinion, and you 671 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: can follow her on Twitter at Lisa m Jarvis. Here 672 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: at crash Course, we believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, 673 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's crash Course, I learned that 674 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: while knowledge may be power, there's a lot of powerful 675 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: people who don't want us to have certain forms of knowledge, 676 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: and that's confusing. What did you learn? We'd love to 677 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: hear from you. You can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion 678 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: handle at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien using the 679 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe to our 680 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: show wherever you're listening right now, and please lead us 681 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: a review. It helps more people find this show. This 682 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: episode was produced by the Indispensable Animasarakas, Moses Ondam and Me. 683 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing 684 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, Mike Nizza 685 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: and Christine Vanden Bilart. Blake Naples is our sound engineering 686 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: and our original theme song was composed by Luis Gara. 687 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week with another 688 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: crash course.