1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:34,244 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:34,244 --> 00:00:37,004 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and. 3 00:00:37,004 --> 00:00:40,524 Speaker 2: Live on tape from the beautiful Pushkin Studios in the 4 00:00:40,564 --> 00:00:42,884 Speaker 2: Flying In District of New York City, New York. I'm 5 00:00:42,964 --> 00:00:43,484 Speaker 2: Nate Silver. 6 00:00:44,044 --> 00:00:46,804 Speaker 1: Yes, this is correct. This is the first time that 7 00:00:46,924 --> 00:00:49,404 Speaker 1: Nate and I are both in the studio in the 8 00:00:49,484 --> 00:00:52,444 Speaker 1: same place since the pilot of the show. Nate. 9 00:00:52,804 --> 00:00:56,324 Speaker 2: But if you detect an extra special chemistry, it's very 10 00:00:56,324 --> 00:00:58,484 Speaker 2: close quarters. You're actually it is. 11 00:00:58,724 --> 00:01:02,684 Speaker 1: Yeah, And today we've got some some stories for you. 12 00:01:03,804 --> 00:01:06,764 Speaker 1: First up, the Failing Atlantic Monthly. 13 00:01:07,044 --> 00:01:08,724 Speaker 2: Failing Atlantic Monthly. 14 00:01:08,924 --> 00:01:12,364 Speaker 1: Has a quite the scoop, So we're going to be 15 00:01:12,404 --> 00:01:17,884 Speaker 1: talking about Jeffrey Goldberg's signal, information security and what not 16 00:01:18,044 --> 00:01:19,724 Speaker 1: to do on your group chat. 17 00:01:20,844 --> 00:01:25,084 Speaker 2: Then we'll talk ketchup on our NCAA brackets recap, for example, 18 00:01:25,164 --> 00:01:27,724 Speaker 2: how team Nate so far in the lead against Team 19 00:01:27,724 --> 00:01:31,924 Speaker 2: Maria and Monty. And we'll talk about women's basketball and 20 00:01:32,244 --> 00:01:35,604 Speaker 2: why on earth are women not allowed to join the 21 00:01:35,644 --> 00:01:38,124 Speaker 2: WNBA until twenty two years old. 22 00:01:42,804 --> 00:01:45,444 Speaker 1: Let's get into it, Nate, but before we do, you moved. 23 00:01:45,644 --> 00:01:47,444 Speaker 1: You are now in a new apartment. 24 00:01:48,364 --> 00:01:52,364 Speaker 2: Now I moved from a neighborhood which might generously be 25 00:01:52,404 --> 00:01:54,924 Speaker 2: called Chelsea, but really is South Penn Station. 26 00:01:55,204 --> 00:01:58,124 Speaker 1: To thank you, name you finally, now that you moved 27 00:01:58,164 --> 00:01:59,484 Speaker 1: on final New. 28 00:01:59,444 --> 00:02:02,284 Speaker 2: York Times On the New York Times Leader map, it 29 00:02:02,364 --> 00:02:07,364 Speaker 2: was considered seventy percent Chelsea. All right, all right, Chelsea 30 00:02:07,684 --> 00:02:10,044 Speaker 2: Midtown West High correct. 31 00:02:10,044 --> 00:02:12,284 Speaker 1: Now that you're out of there, you can acknowledge that 32 00:02:12,364 --> 00:02:13,484 Speaker 1: it really was not Chelsea. 33 00:02:13,684 --> 00:02:15,524 Speaker 2: No, And like there is something about being like in 34 00:02:15,564 --> 00:02:20,964 Speaker 2: an actual like neighborhood. Yea, Like you know, South Penn 35 00:02:21,724 --> 00:02:25,644 Speaker 2: Northeast Chelsea as I call it, serves kind of this 36 00:02:25,764 --> 00:02:28,124 Speaker 2: transient community, right, so people commuting in and out of 37 00:02:28,124 --> 00:02:30,404 Speaker 2: the city. It's there are some working spaces there, right, 38 00:02:31,044 --> 00:02:34,204 Speaker 2: people go into Nixon Rangers games. I like Nick and Rangers, right, 39 00:02:34,244 --> 00:02:37,564 Speaker 2: But like you know, Massiesquare Garden like dominates in some 40 00:02:37,604 --> 00:02:40,364 Speaker 2: ways that profile the neighborhood. And so yeah, this is 41 00:02:40,364 --> 00:02:42,604 Speaker 2: a real neighborhood. And like they're you know, I'm reading 42 00:02:42,644 --> 00:02:45,164 Speaker 2: the esperate climb. But there's an abundance, right, Not only 43 00:02:45,204 --> 00:02:48,924 Speaker 2: do you have your independent coffee shops in the morning, right, 44 00:02:48,964 --> 00:02:54,164 Speaker 2: you have your French Vietnamese independent coffee shop on your 45 00:02:54,204 --> 00:02:59,884 Speaker 2: Scandinavian independent coffee shop. Right, you have your vaguely Russian, 46 00:02:59,964 --> 00:03:03,644 Speaker 2: Eastern European, mostly vegetarian wine bar. It's like, and they're 47 00:03:03,684 --> 00:03:04,444 Speaker 2: all pretty fucking good. 48 00:03:04,484 --> 00:03:06,684 Speaker 1: Right, I'm glad you're now in your a new neighborhood. 49 00:03:06,844 --> 00:03:08,924 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're finally moved, because, as we all know, 50 00:03:09,044 --> 00:03:13,404 Speaker 1: moving sucks the process that is, So I'm glad that's 51 00:03:13,444 --> 00:03:16,404 Speaker 1: behind you. Let's talk about something a little bit less fun. 52 00:03:16,444 --> 00:03:19,844 Speaker 1: I mean, on some level it's kind of hilarious, which 53 00:03:19,924 --> 00:03:24,004 Speaker 1: is that this week there was an absolute bombshell You know, 54 00:03:24,044 --> 00:03:26,084 Speaker 1: bombshell is usually overused, but I feel like this was 55 00:03:26,124 --> 00:03:30,044 Speaker 1: a bombshell piece in the Atlantic, unprecedented as far as 56 00:03:30,084 --> 00:03:34,004 Speaker 1: I can tell, in the amples of national security, where 57 00:03:34,084 --> 00:03:37,804 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor in chief of the Atlantic, was 58 00:03:37,964 --> 00:03:44,604 Speaker 1: inadvertently included on a signal chat with members top members 59 00:03:44,644 --> 00:03:49,164 Speaker 1: of US national security that we're discussing a then imminent 60 00:03:49,404 --> 00:03:53,884 Speaker 1: attack on the whoties. Let's start off by just talking 61 00:03:53,884 --> 00:03:58,404 Speaker 1: about info sec or information security and how the fuck 62 00:03:58,684 --> 00:04:00,404 Speaker 1: something like this happens. 63 00:04:00,804 --> 00:04:05,204 Speaker 2: Well, no, I am a top Information security is my 64 00:04:05,244 --> 00:04:08,924 Speaker 2: top issue. Right. The reason I voted for Donald Trump 65 00:04:08,924 --> 00:04:11,084 Speaker 2: and twin Syxs teenage because of Hiller Clinton's email server. 66 00:04:11,204 --> 00:04:14,324 Speaker 2: I thought that was the most important story in the country. 67 00:04:14,444 --> 00:04:16,524 Speaker 2: I thought there was too little press coverage of it. 68 00:04:16,644 --> 00:04:20,884 Speaker 2: If anything, Sorry, I vote for Trump. 69 00:04:21,724 --> 00:04:24,044 Speaker 1: Yes, everyone who thought that they was serious night did 70 00:04:24,084 --> 00:04:27,524 Speaker 1: not vote for Trump in twenty sixteen. This was he 71 00:04:27,684 --> 00:04:29,164 Speaker 1: was being sarcastic. 72 00:04:29,204 --> 00:04:32,164 Speaker 2: Are you a group chat girl? Person? 73 00:04:32,964 --> 00:04:35,884 Speaker 1: I am only in a few group chats, and those 74 00:04:35,924 --> 00:04:38,564 Speaker 1: group chats are like three people, you know, Like I'm 75 00:04:38,564 --> 00:04:40,404 Speaker 1: in a group chat with you and your partner. Yeah, 76 00:04:40,684 --> 00:04:43,644 Speaker 1: And I'm in a similar group chat with you know, 77 00:04:43,684 --> 00:04:46,244 Speaker 1: my college roommates and a few others. But i hate 78 00:04:46,364 --> 00:04:47,004 Speaker 1: group chats. 79 00:04:47,124 --> 00:04:49,164 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a big awful. I'm not a big 80 00:04:49,284 --> 00:04:51,124 Speaker 2: I think it's probably because now this is where I 81 00:04:51,164 --> 00:04:53,444 Speaker 2: sound like a fucking snob, right, But like Maria, you 82 00:04:53,484 --> 00:04:55,844 Speaker 2: and I like have we're kind of like we're able 83 00:04:55,844 --> 00:04:58,444 Speaker 2: to communicate. We kind of communicate professionally for a living, right, 84 00:04:58,484 --> 00:05:00,244 Speaker 2: And so like I could see the value of like 85 00:05:00,244 --> 00:05:02,644 Speaker 2: a group chat if like, if you want this cool 86 00:05:02,804 --> 00:05:05,284 Speaker 2: people that you're like who care about your opinions, right, 87 00:05:06,364 --> 00:05:08,204 Speaker 2: But like if you're writing all the time, I'm like, 88 00:05:08,204 --> 00:05:10,244 Speaker 2: it's with emails too. I want to fucking write a 89 00:05:10,324 --> 00:05:12,964 Speaker 2: long email. Now I'm making a fucking newsletter. Montize that 90 00:05:12,964 --> 00:05:17,524 Speaker 2: shit talk about in the podcast Monetize that shit. I'm 91 00:05:17,524 --> 00:05:19,004 Speaker 2: not giving free stuff away in group chats. 92 00:05:19,004 --> 00:05:22,404 Speaker 1: Sorry, no, that's absolutely true. So I've had to set 93 00:05:22,444 --> 00:05:25,604 Speaker 1: up group chats a few times for various reasons, and 94 00:05:25,844 --> 00:05:29,884 Speaker 1: whenever I do, I'm actually super paranoid about putting the 95 00:05:29,884 --> 00:05:32,724 Speaker 1: wrong person in the group chat. So Nate, for instance, 96 00:05:32,764 --> 00:05:34,924 Speaker 1: let me use you as an example, because I've had 97 00:05:34,924 --> 00:05:38,524 Speaker 1: to add you to group chats for scheduling purposes, and 98 00:05:39,004 --> 00:05:42,564 Speaker 1: I have several Nates in my phone, and you are 99 00:05:42,684 --> 00:05:44,964 Speaker 1: never the first Nate to come up, probably because you 100 00:05:44,964 --> 00:05:47,924 Speaker 1: don't have an iPhone, so my iPhone doesn't like that 101 00:05:48,084 --> 00:05:50,684 Speaker 1: and always is like, no, don't, don't use this Nate. 102 00:05:51,084 --> 00:05:54,804 Speaker 1: And so you know, barstool Nate, he is also in 103 00:05:54,884 --> 00:05:56,924 Speaker 1: my phone, Wow, And he is the one who is 104 00:05:57,004 --> 00:06:01,444 Speaker 1: always coming up before you. And I am always paranoid, Sorry, 105 00:06:01,484 --> 00:06:04,524 Speaker 1: barstool Nate, but I'm always paranoid that I'm going to 106 00:06:04,564 --> 00:06:07,244 Speaker 1: add the wrong Nate to one of these things. And 107 00:06:07,284 --> 00:06:09,724 Speaker 1: I triple check to make sure that you know, I 108 00:06:09,764 --> 00:06:12,444 Speaker 1: don't inadvertently say, you know, Ad, and I'm adding the 109 00:06:12,484 --> 00:06:17,004 Speaker 1: wrong person now I'm only highlighting this to say, Okay, 110 00:06:17,204 --> 00:06:19,964 Speaker 1: when you're starting a group chat, and this is just 111 00:06:19,964 --> 00:06:23,244 Speaker 1: about scheduling, you probably care about who's in it. Now, 112 00:06:23,324 --> 00:06:26,884 Speaker 1: imagine your schedule. You're doing a group chat about bombing 113 00:06:27,244 --> 00:06:31,444 Speaker 1: a country, right, or bombing a group? Shouldn't you double check, 114 00:06:31,484 --> 00:06:34,364 Speaker 1: triple check, quadruple joke? I mean, okay, wait, what am 115 00:06:34,404 --> 00:06:37,044 Speaker 1: I even talking about? Why are we starting a group 116 00:06:37,124 --> 00:06:41,644 Speaker 1: chat about national security? Rule number one? And you probably 117 00:06:41,684 --> 00:06:44,524 Speaker 1: have learned this as a journalist. You never put anything 118 00:06:44,524 --> 00:06:47,444 Speaker 1: in an email or in a chat that you don't 119 00:06:47,564 --> 00:06:49,444 Speaker 1: want on the front page of the New York Times, 120 00:06:49,524 --> 00:06:51,124 Speaker 1: potentially because. 121 00:06:51,164 --> 00:06:52,684 Speaker 2: And that's the other reason why I don't like, I'm 122 00:06:52,684 --> 00:06:55,204 Speaker 2: pretty circumctanted about what to say over email or even 123 00:06:55,804 --> 00:06:59,404 Speaker 2: you know, even a private event. I'm just careful about 124 00:06:59,404 --> 00:07:01,284 Speaker 2: what I gues say, whereas I kind of in call, 125 00:07:01,324 --> 00:07:03,124 Speaker 2: you know, I say lots of shit like yeah, well 126 00:07:03,164 --> 00:07:05,764 Speaker 2: the podcast and on Twitter and whatever else in the newsletter, 127 00:07:05,804 --> 00:07:09,764 Speaker 2: but like, but yeah, I don't assume that things stay 128 00:07:09,964 --> 00:07:13,324 Speaker 2: private without like explicit Yeah, understand. 129 00:07:13,004 --> 00:07:16,364 Speaker 1: You can't assume they stay private, and you can't assume 130 00:07:16,724 --> 00:07:19,324 Speaker 1: that things don't get passed along. That basically the only 131 00:07:19,364 --> 00:07:21,484 Speaker 1: people who see them are going to be the people 132 00:07:21,524 --> 00:07:24,844 Speaker 1: who you are sending them to. So nothing should be 133 00:07:24,884 --> 00:07:28,964 Speaker 1: done over chat that is sensitive. That's not how you 134 00:07:29,004 --> 00:07:32,764 Speaker 1: communicate national security, that's not how you communicate war plans. 135 00:07:33,044 --> 00:07:35,204 Speaker 1: But in this case, that is what happened. Now. One 136 00:07:35,244 --> 00:07:37,804 Speaker 1: of the things I learned when I was back when 137 00:07:37,804 --> 00:07:41,404 Speaker 1: I was working on the Confidence Game, I actually talk 138 00:07:41,484 --> 00:07:44,084 Speaker 1: to a lot of people who do information security, who 139 00:07:44,124 --> 00:07:47,524 Speaker 1: do cybersecurity, because hacking and you know that that kind 140 00:07:47,524 --> 00:07:51,124 Speaker 1: of social engineering is huge for con artists. And they 141 00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:52,884 Speaker 1: all told me, I don't care what kind of a 142 00:07:52,884 --> 00:07:55,644 Speaker 1: security system you have, you know, I don't care how 143 00:07:56,084 --> 00:07:58,564 Speaker 1: up to date you are, who's your you know, who 144 00:07:58,604 --> 00:08:01,284 Speaker 1: does your infosec all of this stuff. You're only as 145 00:08:01,284 --> 00:08:03,804 Speaker 1: strong as your weakest human link. And it's always going 146 00:08:03,844 --> 00:08:06,124 Speaker 1: to be human. It's never going to be technological, right, 147 00:08:06,164 --> 00:08:09,364 Speaker 1: there's always going to be that dumb person. And if 148 00:08:09,404 --> 00:08:12,404 Speaker 1: I can get to that dumb person, then I can 149 00:08:12,404 --> 00:08:14,404 Speaker 1: take you down, right, I don't, I don't. I can 150 00:08:14,404 --> 00:08:17,204 Speaker 1: get behind any firewall, I can get past anything. And 151 00:08:17,244 --> 00:08:20,684 Speaker 1: this that's just like one oh one ABC, And this 152 00:08:21,004 --> 00:08:24,364 Speaker 1: is like the textbook case of wait. I didn't even 153 00:08:24,404 --> 00:08:27,324 Speaker 1: need to do anything, right, you just fucked up so 154 00:08:27,484 --> 00:08:32,084 Speaker 1: badly that you know you just here here is the 155 00:08:32,084 --> 00:08:34,484 Speaker 1: weakest link, and the weakest link happens to be at 156 00:08:34,484 --> 00:08:36,684 Speaker 1: the top of our national intelligence. 157 00:08:37,324 --> 00:08:40,804 Speaker 2: So one thing I'd say is you are bringing a 158 00:08:40,804 --> 00:08:42,604 Speaker 2: lot of people that don't have a lot of experience 159 00:08:42,644 --> 00:08:47,524 Speaker 2: in government. Right. I listened to the as Recline podcast 160 00:08:47,644 --> 00:08:49,404 Speaker 2: with I think it was Ben Buchanan, who was like 161 00:08:49,444 --> 00:08:53,764 Speaker 2: a basically one of Biden's heads of AI policy, and 162 00:08:53,844 --> 00:08:55,684 Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, you go into the government and like 163 00:08:56,164 --> 00:08:58,404 Speaker 2: there are rooms where you're not allowed to use the internet, 164 00:08:58,444 --> 00:09:00,884 Speaker 2: and there are all these protocols that are quite cumbersome, 165 00:09:00,924 --> 00:09:02,364 Speaker 2: and if you come from the private sector, I'm sure 166 00:09:02,364 --> 00:09:05,444 Speaker 2: it's like extremely annoying. Right. And so the fact that like, 167 00:09:06,124 --> 00:09:08,604 Speaker 2: you know, JD. Van's only two years in government, right, 168 00:09:09,884 --> 00:09:12,484 Speaker 2: Pete Haig Stiff no years and government less, I'm forgetting 169 00:09:12,484 --> 00:09:14,644 Speaker 2: about something, Right. You bring in people that are like 170 00:09:14,644 --> 00:09:16,964 Speaker 2: our kind of Fox and count I think, you know, 171 00:09:17,044 --> 00:09:19,684 Speaker 2: it's kind of could be state on media. I don't know, 172 00:09:20,964 --> 00:09:22,884 Speaker 2: but yeah, you're bringing people who like are just like, hey, 173 00:09:22,924 --> 00:09:24,324 Speaker 2: we're kind of treating this like a group chat, like 174 00:09:24,324 --> 00:09:28,004 Speaker 2: we're negotiating some VC deal or whatever, and like, on 175 00:09:28,044 --> 00:09:30,364 Speaker 2: the one hand, it's kind of like, how do I 176 00:09:30,364 --> 00:09:33,324 Speaker 2: put this, the casualness of the language, I'm not you know, 177 00:09:33,324 --> 00:09:36,764 Speaker 2: I don't think any of them come off especially badly 178 00:09:36,884 --> 00:09:38,764 Speaker 2: in the text that are referent. I mean, if anything, 179 00:09:38,764 --> 00:09:42,524 Speaker 2: they're kind of like, if anything that seemed like, I mean, 180 00:09:42,564 --> 00:09:45,204 Speaker 2: there are internal politics, Like Steven Miller comes in. He's 181 00:09:45,204 --> 00:09:48,004 Speaker 2: the kind of Trump advisor and he's like, don't go 182 00:09:48,084 --> 00:09:50,404 Speaker 2: too far and interpreting crumps shit, right, and then they 183 00:09:50,444 --> 00:09:52,764 Speaker 2: kind of shut up, right, But like, but you know, look, 184 00:09:52,764 --> 00:09:55,884 Speaker 2: I'm sure Jadi Vance is a smart guy, right, I 185 00:09:55,964 --> 00:09:57,644 Speaker 2: think he might be in over his debt. I think 186 00:09:57,684 --> 00:09:59,844 Speaker 2: he's like a smart guy. And it's kind of fun 187 00:09:59,844 --> 00:10:02,164 Speaker 2: to watch them to chatting. But yeah, why is this journalist? 188 00:10:03,364 --> 00:10:05,404 Speaker 2: Why is this journalist copied on this chain? 189 00:10:06,204 --> 00:10:09,604 Speaker 1: Yeah? And and no one and no one catch which 190 00:10:09,604 --> 00:10:12,644 Speaker 1: is that he's on the chain at any point and 191 00:10:12,844 --> 00:10:15,484 Speaker 1: apparently so we don't know, but apparently there are very 192 00:10:15,484 --> 00:10:19,444 Speaker 1: sensitive details shared. And at this point, so just in 193 00:10:19,524 --> 00:10:23,124 Speaker 1: terms of journalistic ethics, you know, people are joking and saying, 194 00:10:23,124 --> 00:10:24,764 Speaker 1: you know, you're a journalist, why didn't you stay in 195 00:10:24,804 --> 00:10:28,964 Speaker 1: the chat? Well, it's because Jeffrey Goldberg actually understands the 196 00:10:29,324 --> 00:10:31,444 Speaker 1: repercussions of this, and at the moment that this was 197 00:10:31,484 --> 00:10:34,284 Speaker 1: actually said that this is that this is correct right, 198 00:10:34,324 --> 00:10:36,404 Speaker 1: that this isn't because at first he didn't know if 199 00:10:36,404 --> 00:10:38,524 Speaker 1: this was a spoof or like what this was right? 200 00:10:38,924 --> 00:10:41,324 Speaker 1: But once it was confirmed that this is legit, he left. 201 00:10:42,484 --> 00:10:45,884 Speaker 1: And I think that that is the ethical thing to do. 202 00:10:46,004 --> 00:10:49,284 Speaker 1: Although there's obviously a part of me that is like, oh, 203 00:10:49,364 --> 00:10:51,364 Speaker 1: but what else could you have learned? But I think 204 00:10:51,364 --> 00:10:54,724 Speaker 1: that that is the ethical and the legally safer thing 205 00:10:54,804 --> 00:10:58,164 Speaker 1: to do, because you know, people will try, I think, 206 00:10:57,964 --> 00:11:01,124 Speaker 1: to come after him, and it was smart to leave. 207 00:11:02,004 --> 00:11:05,524 Speaker 2: I think you can debate it. I mean, look fundamentally, Okay, 208 00:11:05,604 --> 00:11:09,244 Speaker 2: let's let's ask you. Let's say that you're added to 209 00:11:09,284 --> 00:11:11,204 Speaker 2: the group chat. What do you what do you do? 210 00:11:11,564 --> 00:11:15,964 Speaker 1: Well? I think at first, especially given you know my 211 00:11:15,964 --> 00:11:18,444 Speaker 1: my background and the books that I've written, the book 212 00:11:18,484 --> 00:11:21,444 Speaker 1: I'm working on, I would assume that it's fake. I 213 00:11:21,444 --> 00:11:23,764 Speaker 1: mean that would be my initial assumption. How could you 214 00:11:23,884 --> 00:11:25,124 Speaker 1: not assume that it's fake? 215 00:11:25,164 --> 00:11:28,364 Speaker 2: When he did say until he kind of performed this 216 00:11:28,484 --> 00:11:30,564 Speaker 2: out of sample test where he, like I guess, he 217 00:11:30,604 --> 00:11:33,364 Speaker 2: said he drove to they make a movie about it, right, 218 00:11:34,564 --> 00:11:38,164 Speaker 2: wrote he drives to some suburban grocery store and waits 219 00:11:38,164 --> 00:11:40,244 Speaker 2: in a parking lot, and it was like, well, if 220 00:11:40,284 --> 00:11:42,844 Speaker 2: they announced in the next fifteen minutes that were bombing Yemen, right, 221 00:11:42,924 --> 00:11:46,124 Speaker 2: and this is real? This is real and yeah, and 222 00:11:47,404 --> 00:11:50,084 Speaker 2: the Trump people kind of caught off guard, kind of 223 00:11:51,564 --> 00:11:54,924 Speaker 2: did acknowledge this was a real chat. Right. Where their 224 00:11:54,964 --> 00:11:56,684 Speaker 2: heads will roll because of this, I don't know, probably 225 00:11:56,684 --> 00:11:57,884 Speaker 2: depends on who Trump's mad at it. 226 00:11:58,004 --> 00:12:01,604 Speaker 1: Yeah, I doubt heads will roll, And I think that 227 00:12:01,684 --> 00:12:05,684 Speaker 1: probably the the two heads that might roll are the 228 00:12:05,724 --> 00:12:08,004 Speaker 1: head of the person who acknowledged that it was real 229 00:12:08,124 --> 00:12:11,644 Speaker 1: immediately and Goldberg, right, like, they're they're going to try 230 00:12:11,644 --> 00:12:13,404 Speaker 1: to find a way to pin this on him instead, 231 00:12:14,284 --> 00:12:18,404 Speaker 1: because that is there, you know initially, you know, the 232 00:12:19,164 --> 00:12:22,444 Speaker 1: when Pete Hegsas was asked about this, he said, oh, 233 00:12:22,444 --> 00:12:25,644 Speaker 1: it's fake, this isn't real, right, but the government had 234 00:12:25,684 --> 00:12:28,004 Speaker 1: already acknowledged that it was very much real. 235 00:12:28,804 --> 00:12:30,444 Speaker 2: Have you ever gotten a scoop just by kind of 236 00:12:30,444 --> 00:12:31,484 Speaker 2: being in the reference at the right time. 237 00:12:31,564 --> 00:12:34,484 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have. I have, especially because I'm female and 238 00:12:34,484 --> 00:12:36,924 Speaker 1: so people tend to forget that I exist as an 239 00:12:37,004 --> 00:12:39,644 Speaker 1: actual person. With a brain. No, it's true. It's true. 240 00:12:39,724 --> 00:12:41,964 Speaker 1: It's true. I can, like I blend into the background 241 00:12:42,044 --> 00:12:45,684 Speaker 1: and people forget to take me into account. I'm assuming 242 00:12:45,684 --> 00:12:49,084 Speaker 1: with you, it's probably less likely that people are you. 243 00:12:49,004 --> 00:12:50,604 Speaker 2: Know, it's always just thing like kind of what people 244 00:12:50,684 --> 00:12:54,164 Speaker 2: And it's probably as different if you're male and in 245 00:12:54,164 --> 00:12:57,924 Speaker 2: white whatever, you know, mistakenly taken for heterosexual in my case. 246 00:12:58,204 --> 00:13:00,564 Speaker 2: But like what people feel comfortable sharing with you, I 247 00:13:00,564 --> 00:13:03,964 Speaker 2: mean this is true even at the at the poker table, 248 00:13:04,044 --> 00:13:07,484 Speaker 2: in both public games and private games and poker, there 249 00:13:07,564 --> 00:13:11,324 Speaker 2: is kind of, I think a pretty strong unspoken understanding 250 00:13:11,364 --> 00:13:16,204 Speaker 2: that like, you know, if something relates, if someone relates 251 00:13:16,204 --> 00:13:18,444 Speaker 2: to me at the poker table, then if I don't 252 00:13:18,644 --> 00:13:22,844 Speaker 2: have a relationship with them, right, I would kind of anonymize. Yeah, right, 253 00:13:23,364 --> 00:13:25,244 Speaker 2: But people do have a lot of trust, right, I 254 00:13:25,244 --> 00:13:30,204 Speaker 2: mean I've heard people discussing wildly illegal things at the 255 00:13:30,244 --> 00:13:31,484 Speaker 2: poker Oh for sure. 256 00:13:31,644 --> 00:13:33,404 Speaker 1: For sure, they do have a lot of trust, and 257 00:13:33,444 --> 00:13:36,684 Speaker 1: they do often forget that you're a journalist and you 258 00:13:36,764 --> 00:13:39,844 Speaker 1: do have to remind them. But but yeah, I think 259 00:13:39,964 --> 00:13:43,804 Speaker 1: it's very interesting that not only Hexath, but like the 260 00:13:44,724 --> 00:13:48,284 Speaker 1: Trump reaction to this was, you know, what's the aleotic 261 00:13:48,364 --> 00:13:50,284 Speaker 1: failing magazine. Right, nobody cares. 262 00:13:50,044 --> 00:13:52,924 Speaker 2: About this, I'm sure a million plus page yeah and. 263 00:13:52,884 --> 00:13:56,244 Speaker 1: So and so if you if you think about, you know, 264 00:13:56,404 --> 00:14:00,764 Speaker 1: what is ideal risk mitigation strategy? Right, like, Okay, you 265 00:14:00,844 --> 00:14:03,764 Speaker 1: fuck up? What do you do now? 266 00:14:04,044 --> 00:14:04,164 Speaker 2: Right? 267 00:14:04,244 --> 00:14:08,644 Speaker 1: Like, from a risk management mitigation standpoint, what is the 268 00:14:08,684 --> 00:14:11,564 Speaker 1: best thing to do next? And I would argue that 269 00:14:11,644 --> 00:14:14,284 Speaker 1: the best thing, the way that people usually come off 270 00:14:14,284 --> 00:14:17,204 Speaker 1: the best, and this comes from both organizations in on 271 00:14:17,244 --> 00:14:20,924 Speaker 1: an individual level, is to immediately acknowledge it and be like, yeah, 272 00:14:21,004 --> 00:14:25,364 Speaker 1: fucked up, sorry, and then like we'll get back to you, 273 00:14:25,764 --> 00:14:28,564 Speaker 1: and then you know, issue whatever, apology, et cetera. But 274 00:14:28,684 --> 00:14:31,724 Speaker 1: you always always always look a million times worse and 275 00:14:31,764 --> 00:14:34,444 Speaker 1: it spirals out of control and it gets like a 276 00:14:34,684 --> 00:14:37,884 Speaker 1: much bigger story. Right, It becomes much worse if you deny, 277 00:14:38,204 --> 00:14:40,364 Speaker 1: it becomes much worse if you try to, you know, 278 00:14:40,364 --> 00:14:43,324 Speaker 1: put a rug over it, me spill no, no, look, 279 00:14:43,644 --> 00:14:46,724 Speaker 1: the floor is beautiful. And so I think that this 280 00:14:46,884 --> 00:14:50,324 Speaker 1: is just being handled completely backwards. And you would think 281 00:14:50,404 --> 00:14:54,044 Speaker 1: that people who have media training that's something he does have, 282 00:14:54,444 --> 00:14:57,364 Speaker 1: would know better, right, would know that that always always 283 00:14:57,444 --> 00:15:00,484 Speaker 1: always backfires. I don't think there's a single case that 284 00:15:00,524 --> 00:15:02,524 Speaker 1: I can think of when it doesn't backfire, when the 285 00:15:02,564 --> 00:15:05,244 Speaker 1: person looks better because they initially denied and then they 286 00:15:05,244 --> 00:15:06,604 Speaker 1: were forced to acknowledge. 287 00:15:07,564 --> 00:15:11,284 Speaker 2: So ignoring is often a good strategy. Right. There is 288 00:15:11,324 --> 00:15:14,524 Speaker 2: a strissand effect thing where like the news cycle moves 289 00:15:14,524 --> 00:15:19,164 Speaker 2: on quickly. So a lot of you'll pay expensive money 290 00:15:19,204 --> 00:15:22,444 Speaker 2: for a PR person, or you'll have you know, if 291 00:15:22,644 --> 00:15:24,284 Speaker 2: for a big corporation, that PR team will come in 292 00:15:24,324 --> 00:15:26,844 Speaker 2: a lot of time to say, don't say anything. We'll 293 00:15:26,844 --> 00:15:29,844 Speaker 2: do a little bit of work in the background with reporters. 294 00:15:29,884 --> 00:15:32,324 Speaker 2: We're working on the story, but don't say anything. Go 295 00:15:33,284 --> 00:15:34,964 Speaker 2: take go to the woods for a couple of days, 296 00:15:35,004 --> 00:15:37,204 Speaker 2: and it'll probably go away. Right, Yeah, this is I mean, 297 00:15:37,204 --> 00:15:38,364 Speaker 2: you know, if you're in the White House, it's a 298 00:15:38,404 --> 00:15:41,444 Speaker 2: little bit different than this has national security implications. I mean, look, 299 00:15:41,484 --> 00:15:45,804 Speaker 2: part of the issue is in general, you know, you're 300 00:15:45,884 --> 00:15:49,924 Speaker 2: a powerful person. You're the vice president, or you're the 301 00:15:49,924 --> 00:15:52,404 Speaker 2: secretary of Defense, or you're somebody who thinks you're kind 302 00:15:52,444 --> 00:15:56,044 Speaker 2: of like doing some of the most important work in 303 00:15:56,084 --> 00:15:57,644 Speaker 2: the world, and you're busy and you don't care that 304 00:15:57,724 --> 00:16:01,044 Speaker 2: much about like security, Right, that's someone else's problem, and 305 00:16:01,084 --> 00:16:02,884 Speaker 2: so it's kind of like the annoying thing that like, 306 00:16:03,084 --> 00:16:04,964 Speaker 2: I'm mean, I'm worried about this, like in a lot 307 00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:10,244 Speaker 2: of ways I'm worried about like hacking of a labs. 308 00:16:10,284 --> 00:16:15,324 Speaker 2: And I'm sure they take it somewhat seriously, but like 309 00:16:15,844 --> 00:16:18,684 Speaker 2: knowing that personality type, you know, I don't think they 310 00:16:18,684 --> 00:16:20,564 Speaker 2: probably take it seriously enough. It's seen as like is 311 00:16:20,604 --> 00:16:23,164 Speaker 2: pureaucratic shit. You have to like jump up. By the way, 312 00:16:23,324 --> 00:16:26,724 Speaker 2: I tell you something, if you want to use the 313 00:16:26,724 --> 00:16:30,564 Speaker 2: the men's bathroom at the at the Pushkin Studios in 314 00:16:30,644 --> 00:16:33,644 Speaker 2: Flat Iron, there's a four digit code. I'm telling you 315 00:16:33,724 --> 00:16:37,204 Speaker 2: it's it's not the most difficult code to guess. 316 00:16:40,244 --> 00:16:42,644 Speaker 1: Speaking about information security. 317 00:16:42,204 --> 00:16:42,964 Speaker 2: That's easiest. 318 00:16:45,924 --> 00:16:48,084 Speaker 1: Well, you'd be you know, can we can we just 319 00:16:49,604 --> 00:16:53,124 Speaker 1: go go way back in history. One of my favorite stories. 320 00:16:53,244 --> 00:16:56,444 Speaker 1: I love the writing of Richard Feynman. I think you 321 00:16:56,484 --> 00:16:59,324 Speaker 1: know he was a brilliant mind, brilliant writer, but he 322 00:16:59,364 --> 00:17:04,404 Speaker 1: has a hilarious story about information security where he had 323 00:17:04,564 --> 00:17:10,364 Speaker 1: a complete fascination with safe cracking, Like he would go 324 00:17:10,404 --> 00:17:12,284 Speaker 1: down these rabbit holes with different things, and at some 325 00:17:12,284 --> 00:17:15,964 Speaker 1: point he became fascinated with cryptography and safe cracking, and 326 00:17:16,604 --> 00:17:20,764 Speaker 1: he became very adept at cracking into safes, and mostly 327 00:17:20,804 --> 00:17:22,844 Speaker 1: how he did it wasn't he didn't you know, traind 328 00:17:22,844 --> 00:17:25,124 Speaker 1: with criminals and you know, figure out, like in the movies, 329 00:17:25,164 --> 00:17:27,124 Speaker 1: how do you listen to all of that? No, he 330 00:17:27,204 --> 00:17:30,124 Speaker 1: figured out that it was always easy to get the 331 00:17:30,124 --> 00:17:32,964 Speaker 1: code right because there was always a secretary who like 332 00:17:33,124 --> 00:17:36,284 Speaker 1: had written it down somewhere or something like that. And 333 00:17:36,324 --> 00:17:39,324 Speaker 1: then there was actually an incredibly important safe, and there 334 00:17:39,404 --> 00:17:42,444 Speaker 1: was a series of them that had national security secret 335 00:17:42,764 --> 00:17:44,964 Speaker 1: stuff because he worked in really important on you know, 336 00:17:45,044 --> 00:17:49,684 Speaker 1: important projects, important energy projects, things that were highly classified. 337 00:17:50,364 --> 00:17:52,004 Speaker 1: And he was like, oh, I wonder if I can 338 00:17:52,044 --> 00:17:55,804 Speaker 1: crack into these safes, and he couldn't find anyone writing 339 00:17:55,804 --> 00:17:58,884 Speaker 1: down the combination. He was striking out, and finally he 340 00:17:58,924 --> 00:18:00,284 Speaker 1: was like, you know what, I'm going to try the 341 00:18:00,324 --> 00:18:03,244 Speaker 1: factory code, and he did and the safe opened. 342 00:18:03,364 --> 00:18:05,244 Speaker 2: Oh no, and he was like huh. 343 00:18:05,284 --> 00:18:06,684 Speaker 1: So he went to the second one. There was three 344 00:18:06,684 --> 00:18:10,084 Speaker 1: of them. He tried the factory code, the safe opened 345 00:18:10,124 --> 00:18:11,884 Speaker 1: and the third one as well. So he wrote notes 346 00:18:11,884 --> 00:18:16,124 Speaker 1: in all three and it was like yeah, and left 347 00:18:16,164 --> 00:18:18,364 Speaker 1: them and then the guy opened them in the wrong 348 00:18:18,484 --> 00:18:21,284 Speaker 1: order and didn't realize that it was fein men, you know, 349 00:18:21,484 --> 00:18:24,004 Speaker 1: making a point and thought that they had been like 350 00:18:24,044 --> 00:18:26,764 Speaker 1: severely compromised and freaked the fuck out as he should have. 351 00:18:28,204 --> 00:18:31,364 Speaker 1: Just this goes to show, right that people are dumb. 352 00:18:31,964 --> 00:18:33,644 Speaker 2: And I mean there are trade offs, right if you 353 00:18:33,724 --> 00:18:37,004 Speaker 2: like need to go with draw money from your bank 354 00:18:37,124 --> 00:18:39,244 Speaker 2: and they're like, you know, you face this as a 355 00:18:39,284 --> 00:18:41,284 Speaker 2: poker player, right, They're like, what's it for. It's like, 356 00:18:41,324 --> 00:18:43,084 Speaker 2: it's my fucking money. You have custody of it, right, 357 00:18:43,844 --> 00:18:44,364 Speaker 2: give it to me. 358 00:18:44,604 --> 00:18:48,244 Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, no, this there these these types of 359 00:18:48,244 --> 00:18:50,884 Speaker 1: things happen all the time, and but I think we 360 00:18:50,924 --> 00:18:53,364 Speaker 1: do need to be worried, like the bigger implication. I 361 00:18:53,404 --> 00:18:56,764 Speaker 1: think there are a few big implications here. First, it happened, 362 00:18:56,924 --> 00:18:58,964 Speaker 1: and they're saying, oh, well, it only happened once in 363 00:18:59,124 --> 00:19:01,764 Speaker 1: two months. Okay. First of all, it's never happened. That's 364 00:19:02,164 --> 00:19:05,684 Speaker 1: that it's never happened before. Like this is huge, and 365 00:19:05,804 --> 00:19:08,004 Speaker 1: they're denying it. They're taking it like no big deal. 366 00:19:08,044 --> 00:19:10,164 Speaker 1: It is a big deal, Like they were lucky that 367 00:19:10,164 --> 00:19:12,204 Speaker 1: it was Jeffrey Goldberg and not someone else who was 368 00:19:12,204 --> 00:19:14,484 Speaker 1: by mistake on this chat. By the way, maybe other 369 00:19:14,564 --> 00:19:17,604 Speaker 1: people and other chats had other actors on there that 370 00:19:17,644 --> 00:19:19,924 Speaker 1: were there by mistake, Like, this is a big deal. 371 00:19:20,284 --> 00:19:24,164 Speaker 1: Information security is incredibly important. Denying is not the correct 372 00:19:24,204 --> 00:19:27,564 Speaker 1: strategy if you want to mitigate risk. And we should 373 00:19:27,604 --> 00:19:30,084 Speaker 1: be really really worried about this. This is not something 374 00:19:30,204 --> 00:19:31,044 Speaker 1: that is. 375 00:19:31,604 --> 00:19:35,244 Speaker 2: Like an't even supposed to have signal government phones. No, 376 00:19:35,284 --> 00:19:37,204 Speaker 2: you're not saying private phones, which is kind of what 377 00:19:37,284 --> 00:19:39,324 Speaker 2: people were mad about with Hillary, and like. 378 00:19:39,484 --> 00:19:42,164 Speaker 1: Exactly, I mean everything about this, from start to finish 379 00:19:42,364 --> 00:19:44,524 Speaker 1: is incredibly worrisome. So I mean. 380 00:19:44,404 --> 00:19:46,964 Speaker 2: Triump Literally, do you know that if Anthony fucking Wiener 381 00:19:47,724 --> 00:19:51,324 Speaker 2: hadn't been sexing? Right? Like, yeah, probably know, Clinton becomes president? 382 00:19:51,364 --> 00:19:53,524 Speaker 2: Maybe trup because president in twenty twenty to be honest, right, 383 00:19:53,564 --> 00:19:54,724 Speaker 2: and then what happens in twenty five? 384 00:19:54,724 --> 00:19:57,604 Speaker 1: I don't know, right, But so many, so many stupid 385 00:19:57,644 --> 00:20:00,324 Speaker 1: miss so much stupidity here and so much mail you go, 386 00:20:00,564 --> 00:20:03,644 Speaker 1: I have to say that that results and things like this. 387 00:20:03,724 --> 00:20:06,564 Speaker 1: But yes, from a risky business standpoint, this is one bad, 388 00:20:06,684 --> 00:20:13,364 Speaker 1: risky decision after another. Nate, let's take a break and 389 00:20:13,444 --> 00:20:28,444 Speaker 1: let's talk about some March madness. Brackets. Can we start 390 00:20:28,444 --> 00:20:33,484 Speaker 1: with a spoiler alert? Nate is currently winning our brackets competition, and. 391 00:20:33,524 --> 00:20:36,244 Speaker 2: Worse Maria and Monty have to root for Duke is 392 00:20:36,284 --> 00:20:37,804 Speaker 2: their only pathway back to victory. 393 00:20:38,244 --> 00:20:38,964 Speaker 1: And Tennessee. 394 00:20:40,724 --> 00:20:43,044 Speaker 2: First of all, it's probably gonna put me further ahead, right, but. 395 00:20:43,084 --> 00:20:46,684 Speaker 1: Like if Tennessee wins, it doesn't put you further ahead. 396 00:20:47,804 --> 00:20:50,364 Speaker 2: Hundred dogs, Maria, I know, I know, but they might win. 397 00:20:50,564 --> 00:20:53,204 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have Purdue. We have one victor over Nate. 398 00:20:53,284 --> 00:20:55,044 Speaker 1: So far, we had Purdue as a pick and Nate 399 00:20:55,084 --> 00:20:55,324 Speaker 1: did not. 400 00:20:55,564 --> 00:21:00,284 Speaker 2: Okay, what I have at a Colorado State? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. 401 00:21:00,484 --> 00:21:03,684 Speaker 2: So how is a tournament going? I would say it's 402 00:21:03,724 --> 00:21:05,804 Speaker 2: a good tournament if you're betting on all the favorites 403 00:21:06,444 --> 00:21:11,084 Speaker 2: to win, right, you know, you have all the sixteen 404 00:21:11,124 --> 00:21:14,324 Speaker 2: teams left in the men's tournament are from major conferences. Right, 405 00:21:15,924 --> 00:21:17,924 Speaker 2: you have I think one double digit seed. You have 406 00:21:17,964 --> 00:21:19,684 Speaker 2: all the one seeds intact, all but one of the 407 00:21:19,684 --> 00:21:22,164 Speaker 2: two seeds intact. So and I read the article before 408 00:21:22,204 --> 00:21:23,524 Speaker 2: nand saying, hey, we have more and more upsets than 409 00:21:23,564 --> 00:21:26,204 Speaker 2: say tournament it's gradual, but it's happening this year. This 410 00:21:26,364 --> 00:21:29,204 Speaker 2: year we did not. We had lots of chalk. As 411 00:21:29,204 --> 00:21:30,764 Speaker 2: we defind the term lost swee, which means that like 412 00:21:31,284 --> 00:21:33,564 Speaker 2: you know, the one seeds go forward, the favorites. 413 00:21:33,164 --> 00:21:36,604 Speaker 1: Win, except there were some upsets in the earlier rounds, right. 414 00:21:36,524 --> 00:21:39,004 Speaker 2: Which is that is that some of the more like 415 00:21:39,044 --> 00:21:41,684 Speaker 2: the Colorado sticking they were like the lower seed who 416 00:21:41,684 --> 00:21:43,484 Speaker 2: they'd beat, but like they were actually a favorite in 417 00:21:43,484 --> 00:21:46,084 Speaker 2: our in our model, right, Like there were no you know, 418 00:21:46,124 --> 00:21:48,044 Speaker 2: Saint John's lost to Arkansas, which was I believe it 419 00:21:48,204 --> 00:21:51,364 Speaker 2: a ten seed, and you know, Saint John's kind of 420 00:21:51,724 --> 00:21:53,524 Speaker 2: was a foul trouble. They benched their best player and 421 00:21:53,604 --> 00:21:56,404 Speaker 2: kind of otherwise played like crap, right, but you know, 422 00:21:56,484 --> 00:21:58,564 Speaker 2: but you know Arkansas had one beating a pretty a 423 00:21:58,644 --> 00:22:01,244 Speaker 2: Kansas team, right, It wasn't like a yeah, very and 424 00:22:01,244 --> 00:22:03,364 Speaker 2: that's the biggest episode of the events so far. But 425 00:22:03,364 --> 00:22:05,844 Speaker 2: there have been like at most eighty twenty upsets, none 426 00:22:05,844 --> 00:22:08,364 Speaker 2: of the ninety five to five variety that are are 427 00:22:08,444 --> 00:22:11,404 Speaker 2: quite fun, right, And so like, you know, how do 428 00:22:11,444 --> 00:22:13,884 Speaker 2: you evaluate that from like a bracket standpoint. On the 429 00:22:13,884 --> 00:22:16,524 Speaker 2: one hand, if people are going to like the silver 430 00:22:16,524 --> 00:22:19,164 Speaker 2: built in model and picking the favorites, are probably pretty happy, 431 00:22:19,284 --> 00:22:21,324 Speaker 2: right if you're doing something we're trying to like calibrate 432 00:22:21,364 --> 00:22:25,364 Speaker 2: relative to the odds of an upset, like you know, 433 00:22:25,564 --> 00:22:30,204 Speaker 2: full disclosure. I do make bets on these games, right, 434 00:22:30,284 --> 00:22:37,044 Speaker 2: and yeah, in general I was betting more underdogs than favorites. 435 00:22:38,244 --> 00:22:39,044 Speaker 1: Why is that name? 436 00:22:41,004 --> 00:22:45,084 Speaker 2: So I think our our model, I think thought that, 437 00:22:45,164 --> 00:22:48,284 Speaker 2: like there's more parody in college basketball to a degree 438 00:22:48,484 --> 00:22:52,724 Speaker 2: that like maybe other systems aren't accounting for. So this 439 00:22:52,844 --> 00:22:55,844 Speaker 2: trend toward parody has reversed itself. Whether that's a small 440 00:22:55,884 --> 00:22:57,764 Speaker 2: sample sized thing or I mean, there are things that 441 00:22:57,804 --> 00:23:02,244 Speaker 2: are changing. So in college now there are nil deals, 442 00:23:02,244 --> 00:23:07,364 Speaker 2: which I believe standsford name, image and likeness, and so 443 00:23:07,484 --> 00:23:09,284 Speaker 2: now maybe there's more incentive to go to like a 444 00:23:09,404 --> 00:23:13,564 Speaker 2: big program like a Duke or a Kentucky, where I 445 00:23:13,564 --> 00:23:16,244 Speaker 2: mean all those big programs already had that advantage, right, 446 00:23:16,244 --> 00:23:19,924 Speaker 2: but maybe that could be changing things. Maybe some I mean, 447 00:23:20,004 --> 00:23:22,164 Speaker 2: Duke is clearly a very strong team. Maybe the one 448 00:23:22,164 --> 00:23:26,284 Speaker 2: seeds are particularly particularly good this year, you know, some 449 00:23:26,404 --> 00:23:30,684 Speaker 2: of the more plucky teams like Gonzaga is a minor 450 00:23:30,804 --> 00:23:33,684 Speaker 2: excuse me, a mid major team that our model thought 451 00:23:33,804 --> 00:23:37,044 Speaker 2: was like super underrated, but we're an eight C, which 452 00:23:37,084 --> 00:23:38,564 Speaker 2: means you faced the one seed. I believe it was 453 00:23:38,564 --> 00:23:41,284 Speaker 2: Houston in the around of thirty two, and like, so 454 00:23:41,804 --> 00:23:44,644 Speaker 2: you know, the teams that we thought had good potential 455 00:23:44,684 --> 00:23:48,644 Speaker 2: to overperform or in disadvantageous positions where they faced other 456 00:23:48,764 --> 00:23:52,004 Speaker 2: very good teams. Right, So that's part of it too. 457 00:23:52,364 --> 00:23:56,004 Speaker 2: The women's side, I mean, this is kind of how 458 00:23:56,044 --> 00:24:00,124 Speaker 2: it goes, right. I mean, there are in any given year, 459 00:24:00,284 --> 00:24:04,444 Speaker 2: you know, between like one to five or six women's 460 00:24:04,444 --> 00:24:08,364 Speaker 2: programs that are just like so much better than the rest, right, 461 00:24:08,444 --> 00:24:11,284 Speaker 2: the programs where men's college basketball is treated as like, 462 00:24:11,964 --> 00:24:15,724 Speaker 2: you know, co equal to to the men's program. Right, 463 00:24:15,724 --> 00:24:20,124 Speaker 2: that's not everywhere. It might be a dozen to two 464 00:24:20,164 --> 00:24:22,244 Speaker 2: dozen schools and a game in a year. A few 465 00:24:22,244 --> 00:24:24,604 Speaker 2: of those are really good, but like it's it's it's 466 00:24:24,724 --> 00:24:29,284 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of colleges are not aspiring to 467 00:24:29,364 --> 00:24:32,724 Speaker 2: treat women's basketball is like a revenue sport, as it's called, 468 00:24:32,724 --> 00:24:35,084 Speaker 2: whereas ones that are can do quite well. Right, But 469 00:24:35,084 --> 00:24:37,524 Speaker 2: there's you know, gigantic gaps. And if you look at 470 00:24:37,524 --> 00:24:39,604 Speaker 2: women's college basketball tenants and a gigantic gaps from some 471 00:24:39,644 --> 00:24:43,364 Speaker 2: team selling sixteen thousand seats a game to some literally 472 00:24:43,364 --> 00:24:46,604 Speaker 2: sell one hundred seats a game, right, and so and 473 00:24:46,644 --> 00:24:49,324 Speaker 2: so you see that, you see that lack of parody 474 00:24:49,324 --> 00:24:50,164 Speaker 2: play itself out. 475 00:24:50,964 --> 00:24:54,124 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that all makes that all makes sense. And 476 00:24:54,204 --> 00:24:56,884 Speaker 1: in full disclosure, I have not watched any of the 477 00:24:56,924 --> 00:24:58,724 Speaker 1: women's games, and. 478 00:24:58,684 --> 00:24:59,444 Speaker 2: You watch the guys. 479 00:24:59,524 --> 00:25:01,644 Speaker 1: I've watched some of the guys, yes, because we had 480 00:25:01,684 --> 00:25:02,284 Speaker 1: a bracket. 481 00:25:02,524 --> 00:25:04,124 Speaker 2: How many hours over under. 482 00:25:03,924 --> 00:25:10,564 Speaker 1: An probably around two hours total, two hours more than 483 00:25:10,604 --> 00:25:15,404 Speaker 1: I would normally have watched. I'm baby steps, Nate, baby steps, 484 00:25:14,844 --> 00:25:19,004 Speaker 1: baby steps, I'm you know, I'm getting there. I was 485 00:25:19,124 --> 00:25:21,644 Speaker 1: really rooting for Illinois. I really wanted them to win 486 00:25:21,684 --> 00:25:25,044 Speaker 1: because they were one of my one of my Videosyncratic 487 00:25:25,324 --> 00:25:29,324 Speaker 1: picks your Rackett. No, I still haven't. I haven't. I 488 00:25:29,324 --> 00:25:32,644 Speaker 1: haven't bet any money on this. Yeah, but that was 489 00:25:32,764 --> 00:25:36,044 Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to have a free and clear 490 00:25:36,124 --> 00:25:38,364 Speaker 1: consultation with Monty. I did not want to use any 491 00:25:38,404 --> 00:25:41,084 Speaker 1: of his uh you know, any of his insights to 492 00:25:41,124 --> 00:25:47,524 Speaker 1: actually make money, although I think we would have lost money. Well, 493 00:25:47,564 --> 00:25:49,084 Speaker 1: I don't know, it depends on how the bets went. 494 00:25:49,244 --> 00:25:51,964 Speaker 1: But no, I've never been on sports. You know. I 495 00:25:52,004 --> 00:25:56,684 Speaker 1: actually feel like I don't like for me, it's not 496 00:25:57,164 --> 00:25:59,764 Speaker 1: it's not fun, you know, just like I don't I 497 00:25:59,804 --> 00:26:00,644 Speaker 1: don't play table. 498 00:26:00,764 --> 00:26:05,124 Speaker 2: Just watched two hours more of because but yeah, but it's. 499 00:26:04,924 --> 00:26:07,164 Speaker 1: It's a fun bracket, but I don't have money on it. 500 00:26:07,244 --> 00:26:09,044 Speaker 1: You know, it's just a sweat I you know, it's 501 00:26:09,084 --> 00:26:11,044 Speaker 1: like a you're kind of a pure I. 502 00:26:10,964 --> 00:26:13,564 Speaker 2: Want my team to I'll give you a little free bets. 503 00:26:13,564 --> 00:26:17,284 Speaker 2: Sometimes the first one's on me. 504 00:26:20,444 --> 00:26:24,684 Speaker 1: Gateway drug, Gateway drug. But no, I mean, in all honesty, 505 00:26:24,844 --> 00:26:28,364 Speaker 1: you know, I have zero edge in sports betting. I 506 00:26:28,364 --> 00:26:30,444 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to do I wouldn't want to engage in 507 00:26:30,444 --> 00:26:32,244 Speaker 1: an activity that I felt I had no edge. And 508 00:26:32,444 --> 00:26:34,884 Speaker 1: you have models like you actually have an edge, right, 509 00:26:34,924 --> 00:26:37,284 Speaker 1: Like you're one of the sports betting is hard, and 510 00:26:37,364 --> 00:26:38,964 Speaker 1: you're one of the well you're one of the few 511 00:26:38,964 --> 00:26:40,124 Speaker 1: people who actually. 512 00:26:40,084 --> 00:26:43,604 Speaker 2: The tournament last year and then this year. I'm down 513 00:26:43,804 --> 00:26:45,204 Speaker 2: a little bit cheer before that, I was up a 514 00:26:45,244 --> 00:26:46,844 Speaker 2: little bit, like it's but you know, look, if you 515 00:26:46,884 --> 00:26:49,124 Speaker 2: go so now, listen, you're I've lost more of the 516 00:26:49,164 --> 00:26:50,924 Speaker 2: women than I've made on the men's right. But if 517 00:26:50,964 --> 00:26:54,204 Speaker 2: you go through and say, okay, so so far are 518 00:26:54,204 --> 00:26:58,924 Speaker 2: the bets I've made, I'm down four percent? Right, ROI 519 00:26:59,604 --> 00:27:02,604 Speaker 2: what is the house's cut? Four percent? Right? So if 520 00:27:02,604 --> 00:27:04,484 Speaker 2: you haven't a year where you're winning someone losing someone 521 00:27:04,524 --> 00:27:06,604 Speaker 2: going fifty to fifty then that four percent gets straying 522 00:27:06,644 --> 00:27:08,644 Speaker 2: from your bank roll over and over again. And I 523 00:27:08,644 --> 00:27:10,964 Speaker 2: do think that probably you know I'm gonna but also 524 00:27:11,004 --> 00:27:12,364 Speaker 2: you know, but also you run in a shit like 525 00:27:12,404 --> 00:27:15,324 Speaker 2: where you're I'm restricted to kind of like two and 526 00:27:15,324 --> 00:27:18,564 Speaker 2: a half sights. As I complained about last week, some 527 00:27:18,604 --> 00:27:20,564 Speaker 2: of them don't take very much money on women's games. 528 00:27:20,604 --> 00:27:23,324 Speaker 2: I guess it's to my benefit this year's and so 529 00:27:24,004 --> 00:27:28,244 Speaker 2: the women's picks haven't been going great, but yeah, they're 530 00:27:28,324 --> 00:27:30,484 Speaker 2: much more they're much more cautious about about that. 531 00:27:31,044 --> 00:27:33,844 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's so it's increasingly more difficult to make money, 532 00:27:33,884 --> 00:27:34,844 Speaker 1: even if you do have an. 533 00:27:34,764 --> 00:27:38,244 Speaker 2: Inch you have to, like I mean, it's kind of 534 00:27:38,284 --> 00:27:39,844 Speaker 2: like the one thing about the tournament is like if 535 00:27:39,844 --> 00:27:42,084 Speaker 2: you were really dedicated like college basketball, it's kind of 536 00:27:42,084 --> 00:27:45,484 Speaker 2: like this short season but like yeah, basically, like, first 537 00:27:45,484 --> 00:27:47,604 Speaker 2: of all, the more serious experiment I did was like 538 00:27:47,604 --> 00:27:50,884 Speaker 2: trying to seriously bit the NBA for the book twenty 539 00:27:50,964 --> 00:27:54,604 Speaker 2: three season. This is probably like two hours a day 540 00:27:54,604 --> 00:27:57,924 Speaker 2: of work for seven I mean, that was real effort, right, 541 00:27:58,004 --> 00:28:02,164 Speaker 2: and that I was basically break even, right, which is 542 00:28:02,164 --> 00:28:05,004 Speaker 2: better than ninety nine percent of people, but like, and 543 00:28:05,004 --> 00:28:06,804 Speaker 2: that's break even so it's like, okay, if I want 544 00:28:06,804 --> 00:28:08,204 Speaker 2: to And by the way, at the start of that, 545 00:28:08,804 --> 00:28:10,324 Speaker 2: I have nine looks like a bet on New York 546 00:28:10,364 --> 00:28:11,644 Speaker 2: Im the end I have two and a half, right, 547 00:28:11,644 --> 00:28:14,444 Speaker 2: and so like so you know, first of all, to 548 00:28:14,484 --> 00:28:17,084 Speaker 2: make money, I'd have to like ad to vote more 549 00:28:17,324 --> 00:28:20,044 Speaker 2: than two hours a day, which is you know, my 550 00:28:20,084 --> 00:28:23,204 Speaker 2: time is valuable, it's real time. And then spend even 551 00:28:23,204 --> 00:28:26,564 Speaker 2: more time figuring out like okay, which friends can I 552 00:28:26,604 --> 00:28:29,884 Speaker 2: ask find a way get money down with or you know, 553 00:28:29,924 --> 00:28:34,684 Speaker 2: it's not like these like betting sites take appeals necessarily, right, 554 00:28:36,204 --> 00:28:38,084 Speaker 2: you know, maybe you can get some hamo fish, so 555 00:28:38,124 --> 00:28:39,924 Speaker 2: give me back. But like so it's like it's like 556 00:28:40,124 --> 00:28:41,804 Speaker 2: quite hard to make a living. You have to like 557 00:28:43,124 --> 00:28:46,164 Speaker 2: be kind of I don't know, I mean there's different 558 00:28:46,164 --> 00:28:47,764 Speaker 2: you can kind of capitalize it, right, Like you're a 559 00:28:47,764 --> 00:28:49,284 Speaker 2: smart guy who can get down money and you find 560 00:28:49,284 --> 00:28:50,644 Speaker 2: people who build a model for you and you can 561 00:28:50,684 --> 00:28:52,724 Speaker 2: do things like that a little bit. But like it's 562 00:28:52,764 --> 00:28:54,364 Speaker 2: not an easy way to It's like bookern noway, it's 563 00:28:54,364 --> 00:28:55,364 Speaker 2: not an easy way to make a living. 564 00:28:55,564 --> 00:28:59,004 Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. Well I hope that uh this week, 565 00:28:59,084 --> 00:29:01,444 Speaker 1: I hope you do well financially and I hope I 566 00:29:01,524 --> 00:29:04,604 Speaker 1: do well in our bracket bets. So even though I 567 00:29:05,004 --> 00:29:09,324 Speaker 1: hate saying go Duke, go Duke, you you've put me 568 00:29:09,484 --> 00:29:13,164 Speaker 1: in this position. You have forced me. I know you 569 00:29:13,204 --> 00:29:16,324 Speaker 1: have forced me in the go Duke and go Tennessee position. 570 00:29:16,724 --> 00:29:17,924 Speaker 1: You don't mind the Tennessee. 571 00:29:18,684 --> 00:29:21,244 Speaker 2: You know they got a nice I like that orange. 572 00:29:21,284 --> 00:29:22,604 Speaker 2: I like that orange color. 573 00:29:25,564 --> 00:29:28,404 Speaker 1: On that note, show to tell. 574 00:29:28,244 --> 00:29:33,444 Speaker 2: Me for our our landing pages, for the tournament stuff 575 00:29:33,444 --> 00:29:35,644 Speaker 2: we have, like this thing we have to like manually 576 00:29:35,724 --> 00:29:39,044 Speaker 2: enter the team, some very sensitive like which shade of orange, 577 00:29:41,164 --> 00:29:43,204 Speaker 2: the burnt orange kind of Texas. By the way, it's 578 00:29:43,204 --> 00:29:44,444 Speaker 2: a night I like the orange shade. 579 00:29:44,604 --> 00:29:47,644 Speaker 1: Nice. So you have so you have used all your 580 00:29:47,684 --> 00:29:51,484 Speaker 1: Crayola colors from childhood? You know know what a burnt 581 00:29:51,524 --> 00:29:53,964 Speaker 1: sienna and all the others. You know exactly what they 582 00:29:53,964 --> 00:29:57,644 Speaker 1: look like. Yeah, do you do you remember those Crayola colors. 583 00:29:57,844 --> 00:30:00,564 Speaker 1: I have some of those colors just etched into my 584 00:30:00,604 --> 00:30:04,124 Speaker 1: mind because they were such cool colors. Relian was my favorite. 585 00:30:04,364 --> 00:30:04,924 Speaker 2: Is it like a blue? 586 00:30:05,084 --> 00:30:07,804 Speaker 1: It's a blue, but it just sounds so cool. Soulian. 587 00:30:08,204 --> 00:30:09,204 Speaker 1: How cool is that word? 588 00:30:09,884 --> 00:30:10,364 Speaker 2: I like it? 589 00:30:10,484 --> 00:30:12,324 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'd never heard it before, right, So I 590 00:30:12,444 --> 00:30:15,804 Speaker 1: just it really appealed to my writer's sensibility. What was 591 00:30:15,844 --> 00:30:16,564 Speaker 1: your favorite? 592 00:30:17,724 --> 00:30:21,004 Speaker 2: I mean, I like the red orange feels like a 593 00:30:21,084 --> 00:30:21,564 Speaker 2: Nate color. 594 00:30:21,684 --> 00:30:26,004 Speaker 1: Right that was burnt Sana yea, yeah that was more brownie. 595 00:30:26,044 --> 00:30:27,924 Speaker 2: I like you by the advance and there's like a 596 00:30:27,964 --> 00:30:29,284 Speaker 2: separate red orange and orange red. 597 00:30:29,484 --> 00:30:33,044 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. Yeah, this is this is fun. 598 00:30:33,084 --> 00:30:34,924 Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of kids were shaped by 599 00:30:35,284 --> 00:30:38,684 Speaker 1: by Crayola colors. Guys, this will be a future episode. 600 00:30:39,004 --> 00:30:42,084 Speaker 1: For now, let's let's talk about. 601 00:30:41,604 --> 00:30:43,444 Speaker 2: Like the didn't have the white crayon, but the white 602 00:30:43,444 --> 00:30:44,604 Speaker 2: crayon doesn't really. 603 00:30:44,604 --> 00:30:46,324 Speaker 1: It doesn't do much. Yeah, there was a white one. 604 00:30:46,404 --> 00:30:51,604 Speaker 2: Discontinue, Hey, Crayola advice, discontinue the white crayon. It's at 605 00:30:51,684 --> 00:30:54,284 Speaker 2: best of placebos Well, I guess. 606 00:30:54,164 --> 00:30:56,084 Speaker 1: On black paper. You can do it on black paper. 607 00:30:56,204 --> 00:30:58,204 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yeah. 608 00:30:57,964 --> 00:31:02,724 Speaker 1: Yeah, alright, Crayole, please please take our advice account. Maybe maybe, 609 00:31:02,724 --> 00:31:04,204 Speaker 1: maybe it's better than who knows. 610 00:31:04,284 --> 00:31:05,924 Speaker 2: You just have nine planets eight. 611 00:31:06,804 --> 00:31:09,244 Speaker 1: A lot of things have changed since we went to school. 612 00:31:13,124 --> 00:31:15,364 Speaker 1: Let's take a break and when we come back, we'll 613 00:31:15,364 --> 00:31:17,484 Speaker 1: talk more about the women's side of things and that 614 00:31:17,604 --> 00:31:34,204 Speaker 1: pesky eligibility rule. Last week, Nate, I learned something totally 615 00:31:34,284 --> 00:31:39,284 Speaker 1: crazy from you. You just casually mentioned that women were 616 00:31:39,324 --> 00:31:44,084 Speaker 1: not eligible for the WNBA until they were twenty two 617 00:31:44,524 --> 00:31:49,484 Speaker 1: years old. That's just like totally bad shit. Let's talk 618 00:31:49,524 --> 00:31:52,324 Speaker 1: about this a little bit more. This is something that 619 00:31:52,404 --> 00:31:55,524 Speaker 1: is not true of men. And why in the world 620 00:31:55,644 --> 00:31:58,244 Speaker 1: does this exist? Why is it a thing? 621 00:31:59,164 --> 00:32:06,484 Speaker 2: So let me theorize, right when Caitlin Clark is probably 622 00:32:06,524 --> 00:32:10,524 Speaker 2: going to offend people are sensitive out their women's basketball topics, 623 00:32:10,524 --> 00:32:14,004 Speaker 2: I will say, right, people who are longtime women's basketball fans. 624 00:32:14,004 --> 00:32:16,164 Speaker 2: And by the way, we been running women's models dating 625 00:32:16,204 --> 00:32:18,804 Speaker 2: back the five thirty eight days for ten years now. 626 00:32:18,804 --> 00:32:23,644 Speaker 2: It's something we've always taken seriously, right, you know, Okay, 627 00:32:23,724 --> 00:32:29,924 Speaker 2: I'm going to make some broadstroke generalizations. Right, until fairly recently, 628 00:32:29,924 --> 00:32:34,924 Speaker 2: the WNBA was not a very popular product and not 629 00:32:35,044 --> 00:32:39,764 Speaker 2: making a lot of money. It did have a loyal 630 00:32:40,004 --> 00:32:42,284 Speaker 2: fan base, and like the quality of the product is good. 631 00:32:42,284 --> 00:32:46,644 Speaker 2: Certainly these players are spectacular players, right, But you know 632 00:32:48,004 --> 00:32:52,444 Speaker 2: the reason why all these people were, like you know, 633 00:32:52,444 --> 00:32:54,964 Speaker 2: Britney Griner who was detained in Russia, Right, it's because 634 00:32:55,004 --> 00:32:58,764 Speaker 2: there was more money there than they were making from 635 00:32:59,324 --> 00:33:02,204 Speaker 2: from the American sport where they might get paid. I 636 00:33:02,244 --> 00:33:03,684 Speaker 2: mean it's kind of crazy, right, you talk about some 637 00:33:03,764 --> 00:33:06,804 Speaker 2: of the best athletes in the world and they're like 638 00:33:06,804 --> 00:33:10,964 Speaker 2: getting paid like, you know nothing, Yeah, some intern salary 639 00:33:11,444 --> 00:33:14,844 Speaker 2: basically right. By the way, most sports leagues have like 640 00:33:14,844 --> 00:33:18,284 Speaker 2: a rookie scale cap, right, where like you kind of 641 00:33:18,324 --> 00:33:21,924 Speaker 2: are are restricted in your free agent negotiating power for 642 00:33:21,964 --> 00:33:23,884 Speaker 2: some number of years. I don't know off handwo is 643 00:33:24,284 --> 00:33:28,244 Speaker 2: you know in baseball it's six years of professional servitude, 644 00:33:28,324 --> 00:33:30,444 Speaker 2: right or service time is how it's used. So there 645 00:33:30,484 --> 00:33:35,364 Speaker 2: is a lot of like protection. So their combination thing, well, 646 00:33:35,404 --> 00:33:39,084 Speaker 2: there's like there's protection of like the existing classes, right. 647 00:33:39,324 --> 00:33:44,724 Speaker 2: Labor unions in sports tend to bargain in ways that 648 00:33:45,044 --> 00:33:49,684 Speaker 2: fuck over young players and protect the veterans, which in 649 00:33:49,764 --> 00:33:52,844 Speaker 2: some ways is like and I'm you know, generally whatever, 650 00:33:52,884 --> 00:33:54,724 Speaker 2: I think. I'm a free country. People should form menions 651 00:33:54,764 --> 00:33:57,244 Speaker 2: if they want to think they've done benefited people in 652 00:33:57,284 --> 00:34:00,284 Speaker 2: some cases and maybe not in others. Right, I'm just 653 00:34:00,324 --> 00:34:02,604 Speaker 2: saying empirically, in sports, what happens is they tend to 654 00:34:02,644 --> 00:34:08,244 Speaker 2: protect the veterans, the aging stars, whereas they deny younger 655 00:34:08,244 --> 00:34:11,764 Speaker 2: players the right to have full bargaining power. Right, Younger 656 00:34:11,764 --> 00:34:15,164 Speaker 2: players are subject to a draft, and then they in 657 00:34:15,244 --> 00:34:17,964 Speaker 2: most sports, do not make their market salaries or particularly 658 00:34:18,004 --> 00:34:21,644 Speaker 2: close to it until they're several years in. Right, they 659 00:34:21,724 --> 00:34:25,564 Speaker 2: might say that, uh, well, we're actually doing a player 660 00:34:25,604 --> 00:34:27,884 Speaker 2: a service by developing him. It is true that like 661 00:34:27,884 --> 00:34:29,564 Speaker 2: a bad a young player in the nw and the 662 00:34:29,844 --> 00:34:33,324 Speaker 2: NBA is like is pretty bad. Right, So on, so 663 00:34:33,364 --> 00:34:36,004 Speaker 2: on one hand, you have like a restriction of supply 664 00:34:37,284 --> 00:34:42,244 Speaker 2: problem which is formulated by you know, you know, unions 665 00:34:42,284 --> 00:34:45,204 Speaker 2: that maybe don't care as much about these younger players. 666 00:34:45,244 --> 00:34:49,564 Speaker 2: And also, like from the league standpoint, they're probably kind 667 00:34:49,604 --> 00:34:52,324 Speaker 2: of indifferent toward this. Because one thing I've learned having 668 00:34:52,324 --> 00:34:54,724 Speaker 2: built basketball protection systems, and I haven't done it well, 669 00:34:54,724 --> 00:34:56,244 Speaker 2: have done the team ratings for women. I have done 670 00:34:56,244 --> 00:35:00,924 Speaker 2: player ratings for women. Right, in general, if you're a 671 00:35:01,004 --> 00:35:03,324 Speaker 2: nineteen year old twenty year old playing in the NBA, 672 00:35:03,884 --> 00:35:06,164 Speaker 2: you're pretty bad, right. I imagine the same is true 673 00:35:06,204 --> 00:35:11,004 Speaker 2: for the WNBA, And generally speaking, from age eighteen to 674 00:35:11,004 --> 00:35:12,844 Speaker 2: twenty two is when you do a lot of your 675 00:35:13,364 --> 00:35:16,484 Speaker 2: physical maturation when you become an adult. In other ways too, 676 00:35:16,524 --> 00:35:19,524 Speaker 2: maybe it's a little bit different. For do women hit 677 00:35:19,564 --> 00:35:23,524 Speaker 2: puberty earlier than they do. Maybe it's a little bit different, right. 678 00:35:23,564 --> 00:35:26,724 Speaker 1: It is, so everything you're saying though, should apply to 679 00:35:26,804 --> 00:35:29,324 Speaker 1: men and women, right in terms of the unions protecting 680 00:35:29,364 --> 00:35:30,684 Speaker 1: older players all of that. 681 00:35:30,804 --> 00:35:32,444 Speaker 2: So one thing, they're probably a few players who you know, 682 00:35:32,444 --> 00:35:35,204 Speaker 2: if you're making whatever, like sixty thousand dollars a year 683 00:35:35,244 --> 00:35:38,244 Speaker 2: in the wa and maybe maybe you run an ad 684 00:35:38,244 --> 00:35:40,204 Speaker 2: and local subway chain or something. Right, So on the 685 00:35:40,244 --> 00:35:44,444 Speaker 2: one hand, like then maybe the college experience is better 686 00:35:44,444 --> 00:35:46,164 Speaker 2: if you're playing it like a South Carolina or a 687 00:35:46,244 --> 00:35:50,204 Speaker 2: Yukon or an Iowa or a usc you know, maybe 688 00:35:50,204 --> 00:35:52,524 Speaker 2: the college experience is actually better. It's it's probably also 689 00:35:52,564 --> 00:36:00,084 Speaker 2: like less demand for your services, right, But yeah, I'm 690 00:36:00,084 --> 00:36:01,484 Speaker 2: surprised there hasn't been more. 691 00:36:01,804 --> 00:36:04,204 Speaker 1: Yeah, because that seems like that seems like a very 692 00:36:04,204 --> 00:36:08,564 Speaker 1: paternalistic argument, right, like let them have the choice, Like, 693 00:36:09,484 --> 00:36:11,844 Speaker 1: if the college experience is better, then let them stay 694 00:36:11,844 --> 00:36:14,284 Speaker 1: in college. But let them also have the same choice 695 00:36:14,284 --> 00:36:18,044 Speaker 1: as their male counterparts, which is to leave early. Now, 696 00:36:18,124 --> 00:36:20,044 Speaker 1: one of the things that I heard when I, you know, 697 00:36:20,084 --> 00:36:24,644 Speaker 1: started researching this a little bit is that speaking about paternalism, 698 00:36:25,404 --> 00:36:29,724 Speaker 1: that there was an argument made that you know, women 699 00:36:30,244 --> 00:36:33,724 Speaker 1: need the degree more than men do. So force them 700 00:36:33,764 --> 00:36:37,564 Speaker 1: basically to finish college because they will thank you for 701 00:36:37,604 --> 00:36:40,404 Speaker 1: it later, because they'll, you know, they'll be lucky that 702 00:36:40,404 --> 00:36:43,124 Speaker 1: they have an alternate career to fall back on, because 703 00:36:43,684 --> 00:36:46,404 Speaker 1: this isn't this is probably not going to work out. 704 00:36:46,724 --> 00:36:50,004 Speaker 1: And look, I understand that that like technically might be 705 00:36:50,604 --> 00:36:53,164 Speaker 1: might be the case, but I once again, you know, 706 00:36:53,244 --> 00:36:56,804 Speaker 1: I think that there should be you should be able 707 00:36:56,844 --> 00:36:59,004 Speaker 1: to make that choice. So one of my closest friends 708 00:37:00,564 --> 00:37:03,844 Speaker 1: was a professional dancer, right, a professional athlete, didn't go 709 00:37:03,844 --> 00:37:06,844 Speaker 1: to college, right, didn't finish college and danced full time. 710 00:37:07,124 --> 00:37:10,844 Speaker 1: You know, you know her as well, ended up after 711 00:37:10,964 --> 00:37:14,084 Speaker 1: you know, finishing her dance career, going to Columbia and 712 00:37:14,164 --> 00:37:17,724 Speaker 1: finishing a degree, writing a novel and becoming you know, 713 00:37:18,604 --> 00:37:23,084 Speaker 1: an incredibly successful entrepreneur, jewelry designer, all these wonderful things. 714 00:37:23,404 --> 00:37:26,404 Speaker 1: But she did that afterwards because she never went to 715 00:37:26,444 --> 00:37:29,924 Speaker 1: college because she was a professional athlete. So it's not like, 716 00:37:30,164 --> 00:37:32,484 Speaker 1: if you you know, leave at the age of nineteen 717 00:37:32,564 --> 00:37:34,764 Speaker 1: or twenty to go play basketball, oh my god, you 718 00:37:34,804 --> 00:37:37,284 Speaker 1: can never finish college. Right. I think a lot most 719 00:37:37,284 --> 00:37:40,244 Speaker 1: colleges would be thrilled to have a professional athlete come 720 00:37:40,284 --> 00:37:43,564 Speaker 1: back to finish their degree, because that's you know, it's 721 00:37:43,604 --> 00:37:46,324 Speaker 1: not like you're closing off that option, you're not precluding it. 722 00:37:47,244 --> 00:37:51,004 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, so that argument is 723 00:37:51,044 --> 00:37:54,284 Speaker 1: not doesn't suffice. And so it does seem like there 724 00:37:54,324 --> 00:37:57,524 Speaker 1: are these vested interests, as there often are when there's 725 00:37:57,564 --> 00:38:00,284 Speaker 1: something so crazy, right, when there's something that doesn't make sense, 726 00:38:00,844 --> 00:38:03,444 Speaker 1: usually it's because there are some old, vested interests that 727 00:38:03,524 --> 00:38:06,164 Speaker 1: don't want it to change. And so what you were 728 00:38:06,164 --> 00:38:08,644 Speaker 1: saying about unions about protecting older players, about kind of 729 00:38:08,684 --> 00:38:11,644 Speaker 1: enshrining that that to me kind of makes more sense 730 00:38:11,684 --> 00:38:13,644 Speaker 1: than oh, we're doing this for the good of the players, 731 00:38:14,124 --> 00:38:17,164 Speaker 1: because that seems like a disingenuous argument at best. 732 00:38:17,764 --> 00:38:20,884 Speaker 2: No, look, I mean you have you know, the other 733 00:38:20,964 --> 00:38:22,684 Speaker 2: risk is that you get some if you you know, 734 00:38:23,284 --> 00:38:27,244 Speaker 2: talk to college basketball players men, they'll sit now I'm 735 00:38:27,284 --> 00:38:29,564 Speaker 2: talking to them personally. If you read interviews with them, right, 736 00:38:29,604 --> 00:38:31,124 Speaker 2: they're like, look, I can't take the chance that I 737 00:38:31,124 --> 00:38:35,924 Speaker 2: get like injured, right and therefore have no career at all. 738 00:38:35,924 --> 00:38:39,964 Speaker 2: You know, USC's best player just tore her acl in 739 00:38:40,004 --> 00:38:44,524 Speaker 2: there around thirty two win last night, right, and you 740 00:38:44,564 --> 00:38:47,244 Speaker 2: know this is a long recovery and like if you 741 00:38:47,244 --> 00:38:48,884 Speaker 2: have that happen after you sign your kind of like 742 00:38:49,004 --> 00:38:52,644 Speaker 2: rookie contract, then like that gives you more protection, right. 743 00:38:52,684 --> 00:38:55,524 Speaker 1: Yeah, so in some ways it's better if. 744 00:38:55,404 --> 00:39:01,804 Speaker 2: You can, like goodn to play professionally, and the professional 745 00:39:01,884 --> 00:39:03,924 Speaker 2: league and the NCAA are kind of like, I mean, 746 00:39:03,924 --> 00:39:06,564 Speaker 2: I guess it's not really the NCAA's fault, right, but 747 00:39:06,604 --> 00:39:09,324 Speaker 2: the league is supposed to represent women's basketball, is kind 748 00:39:09,324 --> 00:39:12,164 Speaker 2: of denying you a professional existence. I mean, it's kind 749 00:39:12,204 --> 00:39:14,644 Speaker 2: of fucked up, right, Somebody should sue. Somebody sue the NBA. 750 00:39:14,924 --> 00:39:16,844 Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody should sue. 751 00:39:16,924 --> 00:39:18,724 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is un American. 752 00:39:19,324 --> 00:39:21,764 Speaker 1: Well no, it actually it is kind of fucked up 753 00:39:22,124 --> 00:39:27,004 Speaker 1: that you are just unilaterally denied the opportunity to do this, 754 00:39:27,524 --> 00:39:29,644 Speaker 1: and you know you you should have you should have 755 00:39:29,684 --> 00:39:32,324 Speaker 1: the choice. You should be able to make a living 756 00:39:32,364 --> 00:39:36,044 Speaker 1: however you want. And these days we have so many 757 00:39:36,044 --> 00:39:38,604 Speaker 1: people arguing that, oh, well, college degrees aren't even what 758 00:39:38,644 --> 00:39:40,804 Speaker 1: they used to be. You don't even need one, you know, 759 00:39:41,244 --> 00:39:43,924 Speaker 1: Peter Tiele paying people money not to go to college. 760 00:39:44,124 --> 00:39:47,204 Speaker 1: And yet here we are right that finish your college 761 00:39:47,204 --> 00:39:50,284 Speaker 1: degree before you can play basketball professionally. I mean, it 762 00:39:50,404 --> 00:39:52,124 Speaker 1: just it makes absolutely zero sense. 763 00:39:52,764 --> 00:39:56,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're good enough to be, uh, you know 764 00:39:56,444 --> 00:39:58,524 Speaker 2: the WNBA, right, one of the one hundred and two 765 00:39:58,604 --> 00:40:01,484 Speaker 2: hundred best players in the world, And like, yeah, I 766 00:40:01,484 --> 00:40:04,084 Speaker 2: mean that's more viable than a college degree. Absolutely it is. 767 00:40:04,324 --> 00:40:06,644 Speaker 2: It's more unique, and like you build life skills, and 768 00:40:07,924 --> 00:40:11,004 Speaker 2: absolutely it is, and we build. 769 00:40:10,204 --> 00:40:11,684 Speaker 1: And you can always and you can always go back 770 00:40:11,724 --> 00:40:13,844 Speaker 1: and ghetto college degree later if you want, and then 771 00:40:13,844 --> 00:40:16,644 Speaker 1: you'll be a former WNBA with a college degree. Right. 772 00:40:17,044 --> 00:40:19,804 Speaker 1: I think that's the kind of experience that you can't duplicate, 773 00:40:20,404 --> 00:40:24,164 Speaker 1: whereas a college degree is actually quite easy to duplicate 774 00:40:24,204 --> 00:40:26,564 Speaker 1: in a lot of different ways. So yes, let's I 775 00:40:26,564 --> 00:40:29,444 Speaker 1: think that you and I agree on this. WNBA, get 776 00:40:29,484 --> 00:40:32,364 Speaker 1: your shit together. This is not a good rule. 777 00:40:34,844 --> 00:40:35,244 Speaker 2: All right. 778 00:40:35,324 --> 00:40:38,044 Speaker 1: Well, let's see what happens next week. I don't think 779 00:40:38,084 --> 00:40:41,564 Speaker 1: the WNBA rules will change, but maybe maybe I will 780 00:40:41,604 --> 00:40:44,644 Speaker 1: be redeemed in our bracket competition. And if not, Nate, 781 00:40:44,684 --> 00:40:47,724 Speaker 1: I'm going to have a survey of best burgers in 782 00:40:47,764 --> 00:40:50,084 Speaker 1: both New York and Vegas, depending on where we are, 783 00:40:50,724 --> 00:40:54,044 Speaker 1: and then we can pick a fun dinner whoever wants. 784 00:40:59,284 --> 00:41:01,804 Speaker 2: Risky business is hosted by me, Nate Silver. 785 00:41:01,724 --> 00:41:02,924 Speaker 1: And Me Maria Kannakovin. 786 00:41:03,124 --> 00:41:06,364 Speaker 2: The show was a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. 787 00:41:06,444 --> 00:41:09,404 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Isabel carter or A. Social 788 00:41:09,604 --> 00:41:13,484 Speaker 2: producer is Gabriel hunter Chen. Sally Helm is our editor. 789 00:41:13,484 --> 00:41:17,644 Speaker 2: Our engineer is Sarah Bruger. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 790 00:41:17,804 --> 00:41:19,524 Speaker 1: If you want to listen to an ad free version, 791 00:41:19,644 --> 00:41:22,284 Speaker 1: sign up for Pushkin Plus. For six ninety nine a month, 792 00:41:22,404 --> 00:41:25,364 Speaker 1: you get access to ad free listening. Thanks for tuning in.