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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.

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Speaker 2: Today we're talking about apprenticeships, how to earn and learn

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Speaker 2: simultaneously with Ryan Craig.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the notion that an individual could earn a

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Speaker 1: living while simultaneously learning how to do their job is

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Speaker 1: such a foreign concept, you know, Like, that is not

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Speaker 1: how we do things here in America. It takes money

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Speaker 1: to make money, baby, That's how we do it here.

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Speaker 1: You've got to go to the most expensive college. You

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Speaker 1: got to take on boat loads of student loans, saddle

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Speaker 1: yourself with years of debt if you want a decent job.

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Speaker 1: These days, some of the most man selective universities, they're

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Speaker 1: quickly approaching the one hundred thousand dollar mark for a

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Speaker 1: single year of college. And while we are fans of

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Speaker 1: investing in yourself, like, it just definitely looks like we're

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Speaker 1: approaching a tipping point. Nothing literally has risen faster than

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Speaker 1: the price of college over the decades. But what if

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Speaker 1: there was another way? And we're joined by education and

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Speaker 1: workforce expert Ryan Craig, who says that there are alternatives.

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Speaker 1: His book Apprentice Nation explores how a modern apprenticeship system,

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Speaker 1: how that will allow students and job seekers to jumpstart

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Speaker 1: their careers by learning while they earn, leading to greater

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Speaker 1: workforce diversity and geographical mobility. So Ryan, thank you for

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Speaker 1: joining us today on the podcast to talk about this.

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Speaker 3: Great to be here. Matt in Jill appreciate it. And

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Speaker 3: you know, to your point about one hundred thousand dollars college.

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Speaker 3: The New York Times just wrote a piece a couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks ago calculating that Vanderbilt University is the first

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Speaker 3: where if you add the room board and fees to tuition,

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Speaker 3: and then you add in the cost of a couple

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Speaker 3: flights a year to and from school, you're over one

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Speaker 3: hundred grand built.

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Speaker 1: There, you go.

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Speaker 2: Sounds cheap to me, Ryan On, I mean, what's the

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Speaker 2: big fuss come on a bit of money?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Is it grows on trees?

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Speaker 2: I just pick it out in my backyard. The first

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Speaker 2: question we ask everybody who comes on the show, by

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Speaker 2: the way, Ryan, is what their craft beer equivalent is.

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Speaker 2: Matt and I spend more money than some people think

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Speaker 2: it's sane on craft beer. But we're day, we're doing

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Speaker 2: the right stuff at the same time, saving and investing

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Speaker 2: for a future. So what's that for you, what's your

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Speaker 2: kind of equivalent splurge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm afraid it's not as going to be as

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Speaker 3: interesting as craft beer. I'm a runner, and I don't

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Speaker 3: have that much time between my work and my my

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Speaker 3: writing and my policy nonprofit work. So I like to

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Speaker 3: when i'm running be able to catch up on TV

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Speaker 3: shows that I've missed. And so even though I live

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Speaker 3: in LA I run in my basement on a treadmill,

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Speaker 3: and I have the top of the line treadmill.

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Speaker 4: That I have splurged.

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Speaker 3: So most people will have like a consumer couple of

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars maybe treadmill mind costs a lot more than that,

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Speaker 3: but I use it and I love it.

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Speaker 2: So okay, so you're running in you're catching up on entertainment.

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Speaker 2: Does it have some sort of like twelve inch screen,

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Speaker 2: like this beautiful display that's automatically.

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Speaker 3: Desc beautiful screen. Yeah, big beautiful screen right in front

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Speaker 3: of it. Surround sound, it's great.

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Speaker 1: Oh treadmill? What's the round sound? Baby? Okay, So what's

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Speaker 1: the deal by Dolby? You know, I see these treadmills

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Speaker 1: that are curved? Is yours like that?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: What are those treadmills?

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Speaker 4: All? It's not I don't understand that either. That looks looks.

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Speaker 1: Painful, Okay, you and me both. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: those what those are for, but let's dive into it.

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Speaker 1: You wrote a book about faster, cheaper alternatives to college

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Speaker 1: before your current book about apprenticeships. But there is obviously

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Speaker 1: a clear thread between the two. Why is this area,

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Speaker 1: why is this domain so important to you?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean I've made my career in higher education.

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Speaker 3: My first job twenty five years ago was at Columbia University,

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Speaker 3: which has had.

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Speaker 4: A difficult, difficult month. I don't say.

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Speaker 1: They've been in the news.

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Speaker 3: Since then, I have helped build universities, worked at universities,

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Speaker 3: worked with universities, build companies that partner with universities, and

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Speaker 3: have a love for higher education. The challenge that we have,

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Speaker 3: of course, is that we're facing a three part crisis

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Speaker 3: in higher education, and that has nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: the protests. The first is a crisis of completion. So

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Speaker 3: only about half of students who matriculate into a college

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Speaker 3: or university actually complete the programm or degree that they

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Speaker 3: set out to complete. So that's a problem. We have

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Speaker 3: the highest rate of matriculation among developed countries, so we

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Speaker 3: have great access, but we have the lowest rate of completion,

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Speaker 3: and some community colleges it can be as low as

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Speaker 3: fifteen percent. Then we have a crisis of affordability. So

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Speaker 3: the one hundred thousand dollars degree is one hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars a year degree is nigh. But you know, beyond that,

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Speaker 3: the average student who takes on student loans, which is

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Speaker 3: about seventy percent of all students, if they complete and graduate,

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Speaker 3: they're graduating now with about fifty thousand dollars in student

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Speaker 3: loan debt. And no other country has that kind of issue,

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Speaker 3: settling its young people with that much debt as they're

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Speaker 3: trying to launch their careers. And then third is employability.

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Speaker 3: You know, if every student graduated into a sixty thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars a year job, they'd be able to support that

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Speaker 3: kind of student loan debt. But Strata just put out

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Speaker 3: a new study last month showing that fifty two percent

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Speaker 3: of recent grads are underemployed in their first jobs, which

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Speaker 3: means that they probably could have gotten those jobs without

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Speaker 3: the investment of time and money in those degrees. And

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Speaker 3: we know that if you're underemployed in your first job.

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Speaker 3: Two thirds of the time you're underemployed for five years later.

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Speaker 3: Half the time you're under employed a decade later. Right,

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Speaker 3: careers are path dependent, and so something is not working.

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Speaker 3: And I think that the fundamental change is that the

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Speaker 3: economy has been transformed. Digital transformation has changed the economy,

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Speaker 3: changed the jobs we all do. We're all using technology

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Speaker 3: in our jobs. Many of us are actually working in.

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Speaker 4: The tech sector.

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Speaker 3: But if you look at the programs of study, if

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Speaker 3: you go and you go back to your alma mater

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Speaker 3: and you look around, it looks almost identical to the

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Speaker 3: way you know. Yes, maybe students have phones, and maybe

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Speaker 3: there's a data science program, but by and large, same program,

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Speaker 3: same departmental structure as when you attended.

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Speaker 4: And something is not working.

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Speaker 3: And what's not working is that employers are having an

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Speaker 3: increasingly hard time finding the skills that they're looking for.

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Speaker 3: They're looking for discrete combinations of digital skills, business skills, knowledge,

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Speaker 3: role knowledge, and colleges and universities, I think are doing

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Speaker 3: as good a job as they've ever done on the

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Speaker 3: sort of core cognitive skills, critical thinking, problem solving, communication skills,

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Speaker 3: but they're not doing anything around the specific skills that

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Speaker 3: employees are looking for in addition, and that's contributing to

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Speaker 3: the underemployment. And those skills are actually harder to learn

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Speaker 3: in a classroom than they are by doing so that's

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Speaker 3: maybe the bridge to sort of earning and learning.

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Speaker 2: Is part of the problem that the workplace is the

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Speaker 2: nail and college has been seen as the hammer. It's

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Speaker 2: like we've essentially made it a one size fits all solution,

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Speaker 2: even though in actuality it's not working out that way,

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Speaker 2: and we've pushed everybody in that direction. And yet, like

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Speaker 2: in your last book that you released in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 2: you talk about other solutions that are superior to the

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Speaker 2: current for your meth that's even before we get into

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Speaker 2: like in depth talk about apprenticeships, Like what are some

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Speaker 2: of those other routes that are superior that we're just

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Speaker 2: like neglecting completely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean, you know, we coined the term

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Speaker 3: fast last mile training to reflect sort of what employers

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Speaker 3: are looking for, these digital skills, business skills, business knowledge

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Speaker 3: that colleges aren't aren't providing. And there's a whole industry

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Speaker 3: now of alternative boot camps and online credentials and industry

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Speaker 3: recognized certificate programs that may take you as little as

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Speaker 3: a few months, and you have a credential that an

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Speaker 3: employer will value and hire you on without regard to

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Speaker 3: whether you have a degree in many cases, So the challenge,

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Speaker 3: and as you're right, my last book was sort of

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Speaker 3: a guided tour of that emerging last mile training landscape,

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Speaker 3: which is the direct result of those three crises that

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Speaker 3: we're seeing in higher education, particularly around employability. But those,

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Speaker 3: you know, those programs are still what I would call

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Speaker 3: train and prey programs, which is to say, there's no

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Speaker 3: guarantee of a job right you graduate from you know,

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Speaker 3: the most well intentioned coding boot camp. You know, employer

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Speaker 3: is not going to know what that program is, necessarily

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Speaker 3: what skills you've gained, and it's certainly not going to

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Speaker 3: close what is emerging as perhaps the biggest problem facing

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Speaker 3: new grads, which is this experience gap where employers are

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Speaker 3: increasingly explicitly or implicitly demanding six, twelve, eighteen, twenty four

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Speaker 3: months of real, relevant, paid, sometimes even full time work

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Speaker 3: experience and jobs that used to be entry level jobs.

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Speaker 3: And AI is going to completely turn that experience gap

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Speaker 3: into a chasm because the bargain that employers have always

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Speaker 3: made with their entry level workers is you don't need

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Speaker 3: skills or experience, you just need kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: the potential and the interest. You'll, yeah, exactly, and you'll

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Speaker 3: do you know, kind of some grunt work menial work

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Speaker 3: while you learn the ropes and become productive well with AI.

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Speaker 3: That grunt work and media work is going to go away.

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Speaker 3: You know, no investment banking analyst is going to be

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Speaker 3: spending you know, fifty hours a week building PowerPoint.

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Speaker 4: Slides for decks.

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Speaker 3: They're going to be due to spending an hour on

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Speaker 3: that using AI, and they'll be expected to spend the

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Speaker 3: other forty nine hours doing higher value client work, product work,

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Speaker 3: you name it. But the problem is that that higher

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Speaker 3: value work is not going to be possible without experience.

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Speaker 4: And so you're going to.

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Speaker 3: See employers demanding years of work experience for jobs that

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Speaker 3: used to be entry level jobs. And it's really going

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Speaker 3: to pull the ladder up and away from young Americans

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Speaker 3: who've gone down this tuition, tuition based, debt based career

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Speaker 3: launch pathway, which is really unfortunate because among all developed countries,

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Speaker 3: we're first on tuition based, debt based career launch infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: We're last on earn and learn infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: And that's the problem with those sort of those smile

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Speaker 1: training boot camps or online certifications. It seems like what

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Speaker 1: you're saying too, is that the employers they don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: trust that because they've got no idea, they don't have

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of experience. They're as opposed to if

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Speaker 1: they were on site, if they had the ability to

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Speaker 1: learn firsthand what it is that they needed to do.

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Speaker 1: And that kind of leads us to apprenticeships. And this

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Speaker 1: might be kind of a weird question, but like, how

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Speaker 1: do you define an apprenticeship, right, because I think you've

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Speaker 1: said that it's not workforce training, like you are actually

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Speaker 1: earning some money. So can you kind of drill down

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Speaker 1: on that and explain to listeners kind of what that

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Speaker 1: apprenticeship can look like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, an apprenticeship quite simply is a full time job

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Speaker 3: that has a couple of distinct characteristics. One is that

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Speaker 3: you're not expected to have the skills or experience coming in.

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Speaker 3: Two is that you're being provided with formal and informal

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Speaker 3: training as part of that part of that job. So

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Speaker 3: the formal training is actually you're going to be in

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Speaker 3: a classroom for the equivalent of kind of a day,

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Speaker 3: a week or perhaps as long as a year or

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Speaker 3: sometimes two years, and you're actually learning everything you need

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Speaker 3: to know about the job. And then there's an informal

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Speaker 3: on the job training component to it, where your supervisors,

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Speaker 3: your managers who you're working for, are supposed to sort

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Speaker 3: of continue to train you on the on the job.

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Speaker 3: And then after a period of time one year, two years,

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Speaker 3: three years, you're just going to transition to become a

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Speaker 3: regular employee. You don't have to apply for a new job.

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Speaker 3: You just sort of continue. You're no longer an apprentice.

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Speaker 3: You're you know, a regular, a regular employee. So that's apprenticeship,

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Speaker 3: if you know, there's confusion around it because there are

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Speaker 3: other terms like pre apprenticeship, youth apprenticeship, those are those

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Speaker 3: are if you're not a full time employee, you're not

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Speaker 3: an apprentice, period end of story.

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Speaker 2: Because internships, some people confuse internships and apprenticeship sometimes too right,

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Speaker 2: it's it's like potential onboarding, but you're also not a

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Speaker 2: full time employee. You're yeah, cut leg go at any

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Speaker 2: time after the well, yeah.

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Speaker 4: An internship.

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Speaker 3: Internship is like apprenticeship turned on its head because you're

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Speaker 3: an apprentice is a full time worker who's doing training

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Speaker 3: as part of his or her job. An intern is

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Speaker 3: someone who's engaged enrolled in an educational typically post secondary

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Speaker 3: program college program where during the program, whether it's over

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Speaker 3: the summer or during during a term, they're engaging and

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Speaker 3: usually part time, sometimes full time work over the summer,

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Speaker 3: sometimes paid too often unpaid, which makes it kind of inequitable.

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Speaker 3: But you return then from it's time limited and then

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Speaker 3: you return to you know, finishing your program of study,

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Speaker 3: so you know, a thumbnail apprenticeship. Apprentices are workers who

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Speaker 3: have training built in in terms or students who are

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Speaker 3: doing a sort of temporary work experience.

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Speaker 2: So tell me what's the benefit for the employer, because

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this from the perspective of somebody who

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Speaker 2: employees people, spends money for hopefully productive labor. And you

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Speaker 2: hire somebody and not only are you paying them a

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Speaker 2: salary you know, probably not commensurate to the people obviously

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Speaker 2: that have been around for five ten years or something

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Speaker 2: like that and are highly productive. But I'm having to

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Speaker 2: pay the salary of someone and teach them at the

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Speaker 2: same time. That requires like a commitment, dedication. What sort

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Speaker 2: of commitment are they getting in return? So what are

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Speaker 2: the stakes like for these employers who participate in apprenticeship programs.

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Speaker 3: Well, depending on how you define it, too high or

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Speaker 3: too low, meaning that you know your average employer is

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Speaker 3: not going to do it.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 3: And that's kind of the secret of apprenticeship is that

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Speaker 3: where apprenticeships thrive around the world, whether it be in

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Speaker 3: you know, Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, or here in the

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Speaker 3: US in the building trades. They're not thriving because employers

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Speaker 3: in those countries or sectors are more benevolent or more

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Speaker 3: far sighted. They're thriving because there are intermediaries who are

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Speaker 3: doing the work of setting up and running these programs.

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Speaker 3: And these intermediaries are doing so because they're either required

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Speaker 3: to do so by law or they're incentivized to do

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Speaker 3: so by the government. And so in Germany, the reason

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Speaker 3: that you know, the German apprenticeship program is a system

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Speaker 3: is the kind of the gold standard is that you

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Speaker 3: have these massive, powerful chambers of commerce across every industry

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Speaker 3: that are required by law to work with unions and

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Speaker 3: run these programs for the benefit of employers, and they're

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Speaker 3: funded to do so you know, I kind of laugh

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Speaker 3: every time I see some report of a state junket

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Speaker 3: going over to Germany to drink the reaseling and eat

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Speaker 3: the schnitzel and look at their apprenticeship programs. It's not opposite.

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Speaker 3: We don't have that infrastructure. We can't, we can't, we

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Speaker 3: can't do that. But what's interesting is that the UK

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Speaker 3: and Australia and France thirty years ago looked a lot

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Speaker 3: like the US in terms of having a very small

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Speaker 3: apprenticeship system, like almost all in the building trades, like

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Speaker 3: we do today. And today in those countries there are

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Speaker 3: eight to ten x where we are in terms of

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Speaker 3: apprentices as a percentage of the workforce. And it's very

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Speaker 3: common in those countries to launch careers in finance, tech,

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Speaker 3: healthcare as an apprentice. And how did that happen. It's

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Speaker 3: because governments recognize that employers don't do it themselves. Certainly,

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Speaker 3: colleges and universities don't set up and run these programs

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Speaker 3: for the benefit of employers. It requires a concerted effort

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Speaker 3: to incentivize and establish a robust ecosystem of intermediaries who

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Speaker 3: are doing this work of setting up and running programs

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Speaker 3: for the benefit of employers. And so now in the

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Speaker 3: UK you have this ecosystem of twelve hundred apprenticeship service providers.

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Speaker 3: These are nonprofit organizations and more often former staffing companies

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Speaker 3: HR services companies that have launched businesses as apprenticeship service

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Speaker 3: providers because there's government funding and incentive to do so,

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Speaker 3: and so they're now running around the country knocking on

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Speaker 3: doors of every employer offering to set up and run

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Speaker 3: apprenticeship programs across every sector.

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Speaker 4: So you won't find a.

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Speaker 3: Larger mid sized employer in the UK that hasn't been

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Speaker 3: approached by a half dozen of these apprenticeship service providers.

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Speaker 3: It's the opposite here. You know, you won't find any

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Speaker 3: employer who's been approached by any you know company or

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Speaker 3: organization offering to set up and help them run an

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Speaker 3: apprenticeship program. If you know, the idea occurs to you know,

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Speaker 3: an HR leader or a CEO at an American company,

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Speaker 3: the assumption is, well, we'd have to do it ourselves,

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Speaker 3: and for exactly the reasons you stated. The math doesn't

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Speaker 3: work because you're you're not only paying for the training,

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Speaker 3: but you're paying and you're hiring and paying an unproductive

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Speaker 3: worker a worker who's not going to be productive for

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Speaker 3: an extended period of time, So it doesn't work without

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Speaker 3: smart policy.

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Speaker 1: Help help us get get an understanding of I guess

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Speaker 1: what apprenticeships can because you mentioned some of the different

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Speaker 1: building trades in Europe. But you also point out though

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Speaker 1: in your book, that apprenticeships they're not just for blue

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Speaker 1: collar jobs as well, right, Like, can you talk about

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Speaker 1: I guess the vast variety of what apprenticeships and what

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Speaker 1: different industries that you can find those types of opportunities in.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, apprenticeships are you know, sort of informal

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Speaker 3: apprenticeships exist everywhere, right, and you know, think about investment,

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Speaker 3: banking or consulting. You know there's sort of those top

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Speaker 3: firms or hiring candidates in with potential but without the

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Speaker 3: skills or experience, and they're they're delivering that to them.

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Speaker 3: Think about Hollywood and the classic you know, going to

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Speaker 3: work in the CIA mail room for example. That's you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of an informal apprenticeship apprenticeship model. But broadly speaking,

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Speaker 3: apprenticeships work in the trades because they're really good ways

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Speaker 3: to learn how to use tools, right, And they work

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Speaker 3: well in the trades because even though you may not

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Speaker 3: know what you're doing on day one, you can still

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Speaker 3: kind of hold the tools and you know, help right,

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Speaker 3: even if you don't know what you're what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: With the digitization of the economy, everyone needs to know

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Speaker 3: how to use tools. Now, those may not be tools

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Speaker 3: that you know require you know, muscle and dexterity. They

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Speaker 3: may be tools that require understanding how to use certain

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Speaker 3: software platforms. And that's where we're seeing huge growth in

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Speaker 3: apprenticeship programs and apprenticeship models in areas like software development,

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Speaker 3: data analytics, healthcare I, cybersecurity, discrete tech ecosystems like Salesforce, workday, SAP.

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Speaker 3: You know, these are all areas where you know, higher

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Speaker 3: education is not you know, preparing and delivering work ready

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Speaker 3: graduates and apprenticeships are really useful for you know, there's

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Speaker 3: seven hundred thousand unfilled cybersecurity jobs in the country right now,

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Speaker 3: and the experience gap in cybersecurity has just exploded over

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Speaker 3: the last five years. It used to be that a

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Speaker 3: college grad with some technical acumen could access a job

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Speaker 3: as a Tier one analyst and a security operations center.

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Speaker 3: But today, because of automation, tier one analysts have basically

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Speaker 3: gone away, and the entry level position is what used

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Speaker 3: to be a Tier two analyst, which demands a CISSP certification,

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Speaker 3: which is three to five years work experience. So how

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Speaker 3: do you break into cyber. Well, we need apprenticeship infrastructure

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Speaker 3: in that space. We need incentives for companies and more

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Speaker 3: likely intermediaries to hire you know, tens or hundreds of

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Speaker 3: thousands of young Americans, deliver them the skills are experience,

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Speaker 3: and kind of serve them up on a silver platter

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Speaker 3: to the ultimate employers who'll be glad to take them

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Speaker 3: and put them into those now level you know, tier

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Speaker 3: two positions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it also seems like a just a more optimized,

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Speaker 2: efficient approach, hopefully allowing a lot of individuals to forsake

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Speaker 2: some of the diletorious effects of having significant amounts of

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Speaker 2: student loan debt, especially with the stat you cited something

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Speaker 2: like forty percent of which those people who even get

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Speaker 2: the degree find themselves underemployed, not using that degree. So

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Speaker 2: it's a really really expensive item that you hang on

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Speaker 2: the wall that's not really paying off in the way

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Speaker 2: that you hoped.

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Speaker 1: Ryan, we've got more than we want to talk about.

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Speaker 2: We specifically want to talk about the college verse apprenticeship,

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Speaker 2: and like are these mutually exclusive? Get to some questions

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Speaker 2: with you on that. Right after this, we are back.

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Speaker 1: For the break, still talking with Ryan Craig about apprenticeships,

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Speaker 1: and right, like, can you basically just share with us

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Speaker 1: like an elevator pitch for an apprenticeship versus going to college,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, I think there are a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: who might be you know, they're kind of they're hearing

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Speaker 1: you extol the benefits and how that could get you

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Speaker 1: placed in a position where you're going to earn a

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Speaker 1: lot of money while simultaneously not incurring a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of student loans. But yeah, help somebody to do a

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Speaker 1: paradigm shift're used to it. Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: so somebody who might be grappling with us, I would

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Speaker 1: love to hear the elevator pitch for the apprenticeship.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The elevator pitch is that obviously college for all isn't

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Speaker 3: working for all right now, given the affordability and employability

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Speaker 3: challenges that we're seeing, an apprenticeship model or an earn

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Speaker 3: a learned model is a more equitable model right where

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Speaker 3: we're not asking students to take a financial risk we're

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Speaker 3: not asking to take an employment risk because you're hired

401
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Speaker 3: and you're being paid from day one. You're being delivered

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Speaker 3: the skills and experience that you're going to need to

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Speaker 3: at least start to launch your career now. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: an apprenticeship is not necessarily exclusive from a college model.

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Speaker 3: You can do an apprenticeship and then perhaps return and

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Speaker 3: earn a degree or some kind of certificate or post

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Speaker 3: secondary credential. But I think that a model where we

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Speaker 3: have as many apprentice jobs as we have places in

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Speaker 3: freshman classes around the country so we can give high

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Speaker 3: school graduates a real choice. Do you want to invest

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Speaker 3: now in tuition and student loans, or do you want

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Speaker 3: to take a less risky pathway, earn and learn for

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Speaker 3: a few years, develop a better sense of what your

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Speaker 3: interests are, what your capabilities are, and then perhaps either

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Speaker 3: continue to work or return and be a more informed

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Speaker 3: consumer of post secondary education. I mean, think about it.

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Speaker 3: Other than buying a house. It's probably the most significant

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Speaker 3: investment that most people make in their lives, and most

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Speaker 3: young people are doing it at the age of eighteen

420
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Speaker 3: nineteen twenty with very little information about what their interests are,

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Speaker 3: what their capabilities are, and specifically how effective the schools

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00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 3: are and programs that they're planning to or considering it.

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Speaker 3: Those schools are to help them achieve the achieve their.

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Speaker 2: Goals, and those schools aren't really held to a standard

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Speaker 2: of being forced to tell incoming students about what they

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Speaker 2: are likely to learn. Hey, here are the stat like.

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Speaker 2: You can find some of those things, but they're opaque,

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Speaker 2: they're hard to find, They're hard to figure out, especially

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Speaker 2: when you're a seventeen year old. Eighteen year old applying

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Speaker 2: to a bunch of different schools, you're not equipped to

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Speaker 2: figure out the ROI of that college degree. I will say, though,

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Speaker 2: you made it sound like apprenticeships are a superior choice

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Speaker 2: for a whole lot of people. I'm curious to hear

434
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: you take because I'm sure you get flogged with the

435
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: statistic every time you're interviewed about the fact that college

436
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: grads make a million dollars more over their earning lifetime

437
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 2: than the typical high school graduate. Why, in your opinion,

438
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: is that misleading when we're kind of including apprenticeships in

439
00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: the conversation.

440
00:24:59,280 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: I love this.

441
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 3: In a year's long debate with the progenitors of that

442
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: status to the Georgetown Center of Education and Workforce. A

443
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: couple of problems with that. One is those are aggregate numbers.

444
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: Those numbers come from graduates who may have graduated twenty thirty,

445
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 3: forty years ago, sort of prior to digital transformation. So

446
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: it's not reflective of what's happened to grads in the

447
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 3: last five or ten years, or what's going to happen

448
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 3: to this year's class or students who are matriculating in

449
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 3: college for this year.

450
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 4: So that's one thing.

451
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: The bigger problem is that there's a huge self selection problem.

452
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 3: So we know for a fact that people who young

453
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 3: people who successfully run the gamut and a complete college

454
00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: overcoming all of these challenges come from wealthier, more stable,

455
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 3: and frankly whider backgrounds than the typical the typical American

456
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 3: and those those characteristics are also characteristic of people who

457
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: are going to earn more without regard to what educational

458
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: program they pursue or if they even pursue one. And

459
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: obviously they you know, not only that, but they they've

460
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: demonstrated these are people who you know, have the clearly

461
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 3: have the capability to persist, you know, on a difficult

462
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 3: pathway four year pathway, life hasn't gotten in the way

463
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,239
Speaker 3: they've completed college. Those are also characteristics of people who

464
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: are going to make more money. So I have never

465
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 3: seen a study that is somehow correcting for that self

466
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 3: selection bias. And I suspect that I do think there

467
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: is a college premium. I don't think it's a million dollars.

468
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 3: I think it may be a couple hundred thousand dollars.

469
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 3: And I think I think it's shrinking.

470
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 2: So you might say we're comparing apples to cabbage or

471
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: something like that, right, Yeah, No, I.

472
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 4: Think that's I think that's right. I think that's right.

473
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: I think that you know the idea, and of course

474
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 3: you know the what what whatever? The number is a

475
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: couple you know, maybe it's half of half a million.

476
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 3: That is, you know, kind of a rounding error relative

477
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: to the differences between majors that we see. So if

478
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: you're going to major in engineering or computer science, uh,

479
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 3: and you and I and you tell me that you're

480
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 3: going to complete that program, I don't care where you go.

481
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: If you know that you're going to complete a program

482
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 3: in those areas, you're almost always better off doing that

483
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: than even perhaps an apprenticeship program that's a good investment.

484
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: But if you but if you tell me that, maybe

485
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: you even want to do that, but you're going to

486
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: be crowded out because you know, the public colleges and

487
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: universities that the vast majority of Americans attend, they have

488
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: limited enrollment in those programs, and most most students who

489
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 3: want to major in those areas are actually shunted off

490
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: into less remunerative programs in majors. So if you tell

491
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: me that you're going to major in psychology or sociology

492
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 3: or unfortunately in the humanities, I'm very skeptical that there's

493
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: any college premium right now, and you're probably better off

494
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 3: pursuing some kind of earn and learned pathway, becoming a

495
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 3: more informed consumer of post secondary education, and likely achieving

496
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: a higher return on investment.

497
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like a part of that one

498
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: million more over your lifetime problem as well is the

499
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: fact that, like, of course, this is sort of like

500
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: you said, it's it's aggregated, Like the data is based

501
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: on previous years worth of data, and over the decades

502
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: you see more and more students, more and more graduates

503
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: from college, and so like if you just look at

504
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: the simple supply and demand. If you look at simple economics,

505
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: are there's more supply of grads, and so that premium

506
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: is going to in my mind, it's only going to

507
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: continue to decrease, you know, with the additional potential process

508
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: supply of plumbers and then they're getting exactly Yeah, I

509
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: don't think that we're saying that like that's what everyone

510
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: should do, but like, of course you've got to take

511
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: the financial considerations into account. But so going back a

512
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: little bit, like you mentioned other countries like Germany, right,

513
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: there are systems in place, so there is an infrastructure.

514
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: What are the gears behind successful apprenticeship program? Like, what

515
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: does it take in order for something like this to

516
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: get off the ground.

517
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: So I mean it starts with employers, right, There is

518
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: no apprenticeship program unless you have an employer willing to

519
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: hire an apprentice. Now, the problem is, as I said,

520
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: employers need help in order to say yes to apprenticeship

521
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: and yes to hiring apprentices. And that's what we've seen

522
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: in other countries as well. So the question is how

523
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: do we create this robust ecosystem of intermediaries apprenticeship service

524
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: providers who can actively sell apprenticeship and apprentice jobs to

525
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 3: employers and in many cases kind of provide a turnkey

526
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: solution so that all the employers doing is saying yes

527
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: to a trained new employee and paying the intermediary for

528
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 3: that resource. That's actually what my day job is. My

529
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 3: firm is Achieved Partners. We're the leading private equity firm

530
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: in workforce and we build apprenticeship infrastructure. We buy business

531
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 3: services companies and sectors where there's a talent gap and

532
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: we transform them into apprenticeship service providers and talent engines

533
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 3: for these talent starved talent starve sectors. But to do

534
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: it broadly, to do it at the level of the

535
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: UK or Australia or France, we need to invest. And

536
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: today we spend over five hundred billion dollars taxpayer money

537
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: federal and state on accredited colleges and universities. We spend

538
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: less than three hundred millions, so less than one one

539
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 3: thousandth that that amount on earn and learn pathways. Other

540
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: countries on a per capita basis are spending you know,

541
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: almost two orders of magnitude more on earn and learn pathways,

542
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: So that's a huge Like the UK is it about

543
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: forty billion on a per capita basis a relative to

544
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: our three hundred three hundred million, so it's a and

545
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 3: of course that money is making it much easier for

546
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 3: an attractive for intermediaries to enter the market, build this

547
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: infrastructure that we're missing and begin running around to employers

548
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: offering to set up and doing the work of actually

549
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: running apprenticeship programs. Apprenticeship programs are not easy to run.

550
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 3: There's about ten different things that need to happen that

551
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: an employer is not doing today, and most of the

552
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: most important and hardest of which, again is employing and

553
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 3: paying an unproductive worker for a period of time. So

554
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: the best the best scenario for the employer, as I say,

555
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 3: is what if you have an.

556
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 4: Intermediary that's offering.

557
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 3: To do all that and actually employ and be the

558
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: employer of record of that apprentice until they become productive.

559
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: And those are the kinds of models that we're seeing

560
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 3: grow rapidly in the US, but only in sectors where

561
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: the demand is just so the gap is just so

562
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 3: large that clients are willing to pay for it. We

563
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: need investment so those earn and learned pathways can flourish

564
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: across the economy.

565
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: Ryan I could hear some of the limited government types saying,

566
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: hold on, wait a second, you want to use tax

567
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: dollars to pay for some of these apprenticeship programs. Look

568
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: at the national debt, look at the deficit. We can't

569
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: afford something like this. What would your response be to that?

570
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: And I mean, can you help us understand how much

571
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: money is being spent in the higher education system in

572
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: general at the federal levels. I don't know, maybe maybe

573
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: these are funds that are better spent.

574
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's exactly it.

575
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: So five hundred billion federal and state taxpayer dollars on

576
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: colleges and universities, three hundred million today on earn and learn.

577
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: If you compare a college student with an apprentice, and

578
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: you ask how much public support are they wedding? For

579
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 3: every dollar of public support that an apprentice receives, college

580
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 3: students getting fifty bucks.

581
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

582
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 3: So I don't know whether the right ratio is one

583
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 3: to one or two to one or ten to one,

584
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: but I'm pretty sure it's not fifty.

585
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 4: To one or a thousand.

586
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So we I mean, you know, all we're

587
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: saying is we need a more balanced approach. And there

588
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: are states like California that have gone ahead and begun

589
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: investing in that infrastructure before even before you beginning to

590
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: rebalance away from traditional colleges and university. So, California last

591
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 3: year launched one hundred and s twenty five million dollar

592
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 3: initiative to help build this earn and learn infrastructure and

593
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: it's working. Apprenticeships are growing twenty thirty percent a year

594
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: in California right now.

595
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some good news out there. There are states

596
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: who are creating this infrastructure, and like there are also businesses.

597
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: I mean, so even though we've got a long ways

598
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: to go, there are some opportunities out there. Can you

599
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: highlight some of the most interesting apprenticeship opportunities that are

600
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: currently in existence in the US?

601
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we're seeing this higher trained deploy model,

602
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: which is truly these sort of turnkey apprenticeship programs where

603
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: business services companies are adding this as a new element

604
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: of their value proposition there. You know, for example, we

605
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: have a company that is a Salesforce solutions business and

606
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: they launched the first registered apprenticeship program for Salesforce and

607
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 3: now they're able to deliver Salesforce talent to their clients

608
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: in addition to Salesforce solutions. And it's made a world

609
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 3: of difference for for the company and for their clients.

610
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: And so we see talent as a you know, really

611
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: exciting new you know, for every problem comes up an opportunity.

612
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 3: We have a we have a talent problem, we have

613
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 3: a problem with a sort of unbalanced education workforce system.

614
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 3: But that that can that can create opportunities for companies

615
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: in sectors where there is a talent gap. And that's

616
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 3: exactly what our firm, Achieved Partners does, is we partner

617
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: with founders and we help build these new apprenticeship models

618
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: and sectors like cybersecurity, workday SAP, supply chain, even some

619
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: healthcare sectors as well.

620
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 2: Okay, how would a resurgence of apprenticeship programs change the

621
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: way the high school's done? Because typically the put at

622
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: least the high school I went to, it was college

623
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: track all the way, baby, And if you weren't the

624
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: kind of person who was going to go get a

625
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: four year degree, I think you were left to your

626
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: own devices, like you didn't really know what to do

627
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: because everybody was supposed to be on this four year

628
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: college track. How would more apprenticeship programs impact high schools?

629
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: And kind of maybe some of the incentives or some

630
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 2: of the ways, especially that high school seniors are led

631
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: to think about their future.

632
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 4: So, yeah, i'd say forty fifty years.

633
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: Ago, that wasn't the case in high schools had you

634
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: had two tracks. You had a college track, and you

635
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: had a career in technical education or vocational track as well. Today,

636
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: thanks to decades of college for all, there is only

637
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: one track. And you know it's it's demonstrated no better

638
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 3: than the fact that, especially now without required standardized testing,

639
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: the only quantitative metric that colleges can evaluate as your

640
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 3: GPA and AP and honors classes, which is sort of

641
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: the pathway to selective colleges, are weighted on a five

642
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: point scale, whereas every other class is on a four

643
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: point scale. So you decide to take a CTE class

644
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 3: in high school, some sort of vocational class, you're penalizing.

645
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: You're screwing yourself over basically.

646
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly, And so ct has withered on the

647
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: vine as a result. But if you can imagine a

648
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: world where we have as many apprentice jobs as there

649
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 3: are places, and there are apprentice programs across the economy,

650
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 3: then there truly is a destination for high school grads.

651
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 3: Other than college. And I think that's the key to

652
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 3: rejuvenating CTE at high school, at the high school level,

653
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 3: and that's really exciting, and that's actually an issue as well.

654
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 4: I mean, you want one.

655
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're familiar with the work of

656
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: Richard Reeves, who's talked about the particular challenges that our

657
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 3: education system is having for young for boys and young

658
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: young men, and how they're underachieving, and how there are

659
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: some colleges now that are you know, almost two thirds.

660
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: Female young women thriving in the higher education system as

661
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: it's currently constructed, young men less.

662
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 3: So yeah, at every level though, I mean met young

663
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: you know both boys at every level, boys are behind

664
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: the system is not set up for them. You know,

665
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: there needs to be a more an option for boys

666
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: and young men that's more immediately engaging for them where

667
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: they can see the result in the rationale for attending

668
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: and engaging and doing work and succeeding in their in

669
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,959
Speaker 3: their programs. And CTE is clearly clearly has TOULD should

670
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 3: play a part in that. But again, you can't rejuvenate

671
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: ct unless there's a destination for them. I wrote a

672
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 3: piece after the book call saying it's called college or Chipotle.

673
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: And that's basically the choice that we're giving young people today. Right,

674
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 3: you can go to college or you can work a

675
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: frontline job at Chippotle. And that's that's it. Right.

676
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: There's really nothing in between.

677
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: Which is crazy because we know there are like millions

678
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: of jobs that fall somewhere in between on the spectrum.

679
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: It's a spectrum of a career workforce opportunities. It doesn't

680
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: have to be that bold and that crummy of a dichotomy.

681
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And other countries are doing a much

682
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 3: better job of that than we are, And all we

683
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: need to do is look at what they're doing and

684
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: begin to replicate some of their policies. But the good

685
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: news is that we're making some progress. I mentioned California.

686
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 3: There was some some positive news in the minibus that

687
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 3: funded the federal government six weeks ago that directed the

688
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 3: Department of Labor to begin changing the way they're funding apprenticeships,

689
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 3: which is going to be really beneficial starting in twenty five.

690
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 3: So things are things are moving in the right direction here.

691
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: And the other piece of good news is that everyone agrees. Right.

692
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 3: I speak to progressive democrats, I speak to conservative Republicans.

693
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: Everyone's in favor of this, so it will it will happen.

694
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: We'd like it to happen.

695
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: Quicker love it.

696
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is it that Churchill says about America that

697
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 2: we finally picked the right thing after exhausting every other

698
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: viable opportunity. That feels like this for.

699
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: Apprenticeships as well, taking.

700
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: The slow round, And I will say that, you know,

701
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: the challenges on college campuses are are also going to

702
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: help accelerate it. You know, traditional colleges are are kind

703
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 3: of at a probably historic low in terms of public

704
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 3: opinion and public and marketing.

705
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: So okay, well, yes, seaking of high school students and

706
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: helping folks to understand the ration now behind the career

707
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: paths that they're taking. We've got a few more questions

708
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: for you right after the break, along the lines of

709
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: maybe guiding younger generations and making the right decisions for

710
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: their future. We'll get to that more right after this.

711
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 2: We're back. We're still talking with Ryan Craig about apprenticeships

712
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: a cool way to earn money. While you're learning, you're

713
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: growing in your skills, but you're also growing your net worth.

714
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: You're avoiding the college debt. And ran we talked about

715
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 2: this just a little bit. You mentioned a couple of

716
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: kind of specific degree choices. Hey, if you're going to

717
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: go be an engineer, that's great. Apprenticeships might not be

718
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: the best route for you. Go get the four year degree.

719
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: The college debt you take on is going to be

720
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: more than worth it in the end. Let's say apprenticeships

721
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: do become more common, and you know, you were just mentioning, Hey,

722
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: the writing is on the wall. Things are looking better

723
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 2: than they ever have before in this country. On that front,

724
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: how would an individual decide whether that's a better route

725
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: for them than going to get the traditional four year degree.

726
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 2: It's obviously going to take a lot of years, a

727
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: lot of messaging, a lot of infrastructure to kind of

728
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: start to make these changes and start to point people

729
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: in a different direction. But then how would people know

730
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: which choice is right for them?

731
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean I think that the reality is

732
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 3: that the vast majority would be would benefit from some

733
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: kind of earn and learn option after high school first,

734
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: before college, for the reasons we discussed in terms of

735
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 3: becoming a more informed consumer of post secondary education. I

736
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 3: think those that would want to go straight are those

737
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 3: who are admitted to a you know, selective university where

738
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 3: it's affordable for them, you know, great, go and have

739
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: that you know, wonderful experience. And those who are you know,

740
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 3: very confident that they'll be able to complete a you know,

741
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 3: an engineering or computer science program at any any universe.

742
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 3: I think that those are those are kind of the

743
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: two categories of please go ahead. But if you're going

744
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 3: because you can't think of another option and you don't

745
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: know what you're interested in, then you're probably going to

746
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 3: be better off working for a few years in a

747
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 3: job that isn't Chipotle, in a job that actually has

748
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 3: a career path and where there's built in training, and

749
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: where you could continue if you if you so wished

750
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: to earn a living or after a couple of years,

751
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 3: you could stop, take stock of your interest capabilities, you've

752
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 3: made some money, You've probably have some savings at that point,

753
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: and decide, you know, what post secondary pathway or program

754
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: makes the most sense for you. I think ninety nine

755
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 3: times out of one hundred, you're going to make a

756
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 3: better choice than you would have a couple of years ago.

757
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: I totally agree. Yeah, And this is not only for

758
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: students who are trying to figure out what to do

759
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: with their lives. But I mean as a parent, like,

760
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: who wants to see their kid go off and be

761
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: so encumbered by the amount of debt that all these

762
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: and I'm not taking on those parent plus loans to

763
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: help come on, Yes, absolutely not. Yeah, and you to

764
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: want to prevent that for yourself as the parent, but

765
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: you also want to prevent that burden for your kids, yes,

766
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: because yeah, you see the millstone around the neck that

767
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: it is for so many the pain of the decades

768
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: of multiple years of student loan payments.

769
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: That, yeah, even if it does lead to a productive career,

770
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: still like, student loan debt is out of control. So Ryan,

771
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: where right now, given the infrastructure that currently exists for

772
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: people who are listening, whether it's parents or it's those

773
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: upper rage high schoolers, where should they go If they're

774
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: resonating with us and they're saying, yeah, I do want

775
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 2: to avoid the college debt, and yeah, I didn't think

776
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: maybe that was the best track for me. Maybe an

777
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: apprenticeship would make sense. Where can they go to find

778
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: and land an apprenticeship? Are there any like current resources

779
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 2: websites that they should be Specific employers, Yes, specific employers

780
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: who specialize in this what should they do next?

781
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 4: Well, it's funny you asked.

782
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: The directory of my book, Apprenticedation is a list of

783
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: all active apprenticeships in the US where they're actually hiring apprentices,

784
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 3: where you could apply for a job as an apprentice tomorrow.

785
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 3: And I'm sorry to say the list isn't longer. They're

786
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: about two hundred or so programs listed, and not all

787
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 3: of them are hiring large numbers of apprentices. But that's

788
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: the state of where we are today. So you can

789
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 3: find it in the back of Apprentice.

790
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: Nation, the Apprentice Nation, that's right. Yeah, And of course

791
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 1: we'll link to your book, Ryan, and we'll also check

792
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: out that article as well, the College or Chipotle article,

793
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: because I think that might help folks to enter into

794
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: the conversation thinking about it in an informed way as well. So, Ryan,

795
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time joining us

796
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: today on the podcast.

797
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 4: Wonderful. Well, you guys are vent terrific.

798
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: Really enjoyed it, Matt, that was a great conversation. And

799
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: I love talking about apprenticeship, So I love talking about

800
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: something that gets so little press, I know, but could

801
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 2: be I think so game changing for the way we

802
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: do higher education and careers in this country. It's so

803
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: sad that we kind of turned our back. Actually, the

804
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: very beginning of Ryan's book, he talks about how apprenticeships

805
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 2: were kind of core to the founding of the nation

806
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 2: and our founding fathers, and we've just kind of like

807
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: the college for all sort of approach. Again, not trying

808
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: to hate on college, but just saying there are a

809
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 2: different structure different folks.

810
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: We's gone really hard in that direction over the past

811
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: forty fifty years. Yeah. And Johnny Tremaine baby and science,

812
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: he wasn't a white collar worker. He was a silversmith. Yeah.

813
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And again, like the so much comes out, we're

814
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: valueists to you and me. And if your awesome college

815
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: education cost you four thousand dollars, that's one thing. But

816
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: when it cost you four hundred thousand dollars, you have

817
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 2: to maybe at least consider other alternatives. Yeah, and yeah,

818
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: I do love too that Ryan pointed out, Hey, guess what,

819
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: there's a long list of potential apprenticeships you could pursue

820
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 2: in his book, which is definitely worth the read.

821
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: Heck, yeah, is that your big takeaway? Or you still thinking,

822
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: so I got one? You go, you start Okay, so

823
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: my big takeaway is just as individuals the benefit of

824
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: something like an appent I love how he pointed out

825
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: that we will then be able to become informed consumers

826
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: of higher education, which I love and like that just

827
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: resonates so much with how I view the world as

828
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: well as far as like I want my kids, And

829
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: I've even said this very statement before. I might change

830
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: my mind a decade down the road, but I truly

831
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: do think I want my kids to take a gap

832
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: year because you just learn so much by being out

833
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: in the world and not just being immediately shunted pushed

834
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: along the education track. And that's so in the status

835
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: that he pointed to at the early on point to

836
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: that fact, right that the like we're number one and

837
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: the number of students that make it into college as

838
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: far as the immediate accessibility of it, but we're like

839
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: dead last when it comes to actual completion, which tells

840
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: me that there are all the incentives in the world

841
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: to get kids in college, but it doesn't necessarily mean

842
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: it's the best thing for all of those two it's

843
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: a leahyesive, you know, yeah, I completely agree. And the

844
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: options that become available when you consider something like an apprenticeship.

845
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: I think are are so incredible, And the analogy I

846
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: immediately thought of. I thought about mentioning it in the moment,

847
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: but he said, other than a house, this is the

848
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: most expensive decision that you'd make. And I mean it

849
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: made me immediately think of like a couple or an

850
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: individual who whatever moving to a new city and immediately

851
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: buying a house without doing any due diligence and just

852
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: being like, all right, well, I got to pick a neighborhood.

853
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've heard something about this, so I'm

854
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 1: just going to go do that. That is not how

855
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: you go about buying a home. You you rent for

856
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: a couple of years, you get a feel for the neighborhood.

857
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: You are able to do your due diligence, and I

858
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that in an apprenticeship

859
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: allows you to do. Just like you would take your

860
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: time in buying a home, I think we should also

861
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: take our time when it comes to committing to a

862
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: path of education and what it is that high school

863
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: grads in particular went to study.

864
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the gap year might not even change

865
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 2: the course you ought to take, but it gives you

866
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: maybe more courage and belief of the direction you're going in,

867
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 2: and it might change things up to you a little

868
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: bit and might say like, wait a second, no, no,

869
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 2: I do want to go in this other path instead.

870
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: And I was going to go to college. Oh my gosh,

871
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: that's not right for me. It's bride as your horizons though, Yeah,

872
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: Like I feel like they at least thought them for you. Yes,

873
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: I think the apprenticeship gives you experience right on the

874
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: job as you are learning about something. I think what

875
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: a gap year does is that it broadens your horizons

876
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: and it helps you to think through the many different

877
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: options and whether or not this is something you want

878
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: to do at all, and it just helps you to

879
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: see what else is out there.

880
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 2: And you mentioned I think the quote that I was

881
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: going to call out to the same thing well when

882
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: he said become an informed consumer of post secondary education.

883
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: And I think that ultimately at the it's not to

884
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: say apprenticeships are for everyone, colleges for everyone. The truth

885
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: is there is a broad spectrum of options that you

886
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 2: can take, and we have boiled it down to one

887
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: thing and made it sound like that's the right choice

888
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: for ninety nine percent of folks and the truth is

889
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: it's not. It is, especially given the high costs of

890
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: college today. So the best thing you can do is

891
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: not make a knee jerk decision just based on this conversation.

892
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: It's just more information to help you be an informed

893
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: consumer and know what your options are. That's every time

894
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: we talk about college, Matt with with whoever we bring

895
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: on the show, whether we're conversations with with and Garcia

896
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 2: who talks about reducing the cost of college and trying

897
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: to get all the scholarships available to you, right, all

898
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: these conversations we have on the show, it's all about

899
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 2: helping you make an informed decision. It's not saying this

900
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: is the right path for you. We don't know who

901
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 2: you are or what you want out of life. And

902
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: I just I think the more options to better and

903
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 2: that's why we as a country should do a better

904
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 2: job making apprenticeships available.

905
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: To more and more folks. Yeah, we just want you

906
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: to hit pause and not mindlessly consume whether that's the

907
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: next thing that's that found its way in your Amazon

908
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: car or something that is incredibly expensive, like a higher education.

909
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,479
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to the nicest college, the best

910
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: college as rated by US News and World Report, which

911
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: is dumb. Anyway, I'm going to go there because they

912
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: accepted me. Well, how much is it going to cost?

913
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: And what's what are you going to major in? And

914
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: what are you going to do with that degree at

915
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: the end of the day. I mean, those are all

916
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: really important questions. And yeah, I think that's that's part

917
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: of the problem is people just go to the college

918
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: of their dreams and then they graduate four years or

919
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 2: sometimes six or seven years later, or sometimes they don't

920
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 2: graduate at all, and yeah, they're left in actually sometimes

921
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: a worse spot because of it.

922
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: All Right, our beer that you and I enjoyed during

923
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: this episode was an Adjustable Rate, which is quite When

924
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: I saw this one, I was like, I gotta pick

925
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: this one because it's not often that beers are named

926
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: after financial term that we talk about on the podcast,

927
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: but this is another beer by Inner Voice Brewing.

928
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: What were your thoughts, Well, one, I'm curious why they

929
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: gave it this name adjustable Rate.

930
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I guess they're just well it says it's

931
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: in collaboration with Magnanimous Brewing. Okay, maybe they do more

932
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I could never It doesn't seem like

933
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: it's necessarily within their branding as much. They're more like,

934
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: you know, it's inner voice, it's more contemplative memory farm, right, like.

935
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: So that's one of their beers that we had on recently.

936
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: But I really like this one.

937
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I like a good barley wine. This was

938
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: sweeter than your average barley wine. I think it was

939
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: the orange peel and vanilla combo that led it to

940
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: being just like less abrasive or.

941
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,959
Speaker 1: The overall weight of this beer that it's just a beast.

942
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: It's a beast of a beer. Yeah.

943
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: I like the balance of this one struck too, because

944
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: I think sometimes barley wines can be too heavy, and yeah,

945
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: this is a big beer, but I think some of

946
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 2: that sweetness coming from some of the adjuncts that they

947
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 2: put in makes it more approachable.

948
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: There's almost like a tartness like sharpness that comes from

949
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: the specifically the orange as well, because without I don't know,

950
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: it's I think in the same way that sometimes you

951
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: add like you get the faint Do you ever get

952
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: the fancier chocolates from Trader Joe's or Aldi or whatever?

953
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, but it's also like with bits

954
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: of orange or whatever, like orange is typically something that

955
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: you include in chocolate, and I think in part it's

956
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: because it's it's to kind of be a foil to

957
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: the sweet softness of the chocolate, where this is just

958
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: like this little sharp zest and I don't know, I'm

959
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: picking up on the zestiness of the orange. I feel

960
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: like without the orange in this, it might be just

961
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: as sweet, but it would be not as well balanced.

962
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 1: That's a good point in my opinion.

963
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 2: No, I think you're right. I think the orange adds

964
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: a lot to the roundness of the of the flavor

965
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: and just yeah, makes it a multi pronged mouth attack.

966
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It looks like it looks like they bred

967
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: this for their second anniversary summit. I don't know what

968
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 1: that looked like when they all got together, But in quotes,

969
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: it says too big to fail, which is another financial term,

970
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: doesn't referring to the banks back during the Great Recession.

971
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: These guys make good beers. I love it. It makes me

972
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: want to check out around Magnanimous because maybe they're are

973
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: they're broom beers that are super financial, wonky nerdy that

974
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: we might be into rhythm with literal dollar bills or

975
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: pennies in there. Yeah, but yeah, this is a great

976
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: conversation with Ryan Craig and we'll make sure to link

977
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: to his book the article as well that we referenced,

978
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: and you can find that all on the website at

979
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: how tomoney dot com, no doubt. All right, buddy, Until

980
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 1: next time, best friends out and best friends out,