WEBVTT - Live from CrimeCon [bonus] 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.320 In Atlanta. Another body was discovering today at Police Task 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.439 Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.080 one missing. We do not know the person or persons 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:20.960 that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the mode 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.759 from Tenderfoot TV and how staff works in Atlanta. Like 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.000 eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was as 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.720 fixy victor. Atlanta is unlikely to catch the killer unless 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:46.400 he keeps on killing. This is Atlanta Monster. Please welcome, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.919 head of New Initiatives and an executive producer at How 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:58.840 Stuff Works, Jason Hope. Thank you, so thanks everyone for 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.400 coming today. Really excited about this panel. We're gonna talk 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.199 about Atlanta Monster and Up and Vanish some of the collaboration. 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:17.959 All right, so let's bring the panel up. I'm gonna 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.759 let you guys introduce yourself. This is Meredith Payne and Donald, 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:22.600 but give us a little bit more background on what 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.920 you two of you guys do. Hi. I'm Meredith seven 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.800 and I'm a creative producer at Tenderfoot TV. I'm Payine Lindsay, 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.560 I host and produce Up and Vanish in Atlanta Monster. 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:40.200 Thank you. I'm Donald Albright, President Tenni for TV on 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:48.200 Paynts business partner. All right, let's get started. Payne and Donald. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:54.040 We we somehow found a way to um start Atlanta Monster. 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:58.360 How did that happen? Well, I met you first, and 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.640 you hadn't heard him in Vanish yet, but you knew 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.880 of I've been Vanished, and you shot me an email 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.200 and he realized that we were in the same building 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.079 and he said, come down to my office and I 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.079 went down there, and I swear it was like a 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.040 job interview. He was like, so you like podcasts. I 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.600 was like, yeah, it's been making wine for a while. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.000 And then you started listening to Up and Vanished and you, 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.400 for some reason brought up the Atlanta child murders in there. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.720 And you had brought up Delian Childmers to me like 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.520 a week prior as a podcast idea. So you were 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.120 saying it. You were saying it, and I was like, okay, 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.280 let's all have the meeting. And then that's basically how 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.440 it all started. Yeah, And it was one of those 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.799 things where house stuff works. Although we have been doing 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.160 podcasts for a long time, we had never done true crime. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:42.320 And I think we knew at that moment, well, we 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.919 have to do something together, and you know, I grew up. 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.120 I was probably nine or ten at the at the time, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.440 did not live anywhere close to Atlanta, but burned in 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.000 my brain were those images of way Williams and the 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.480 Atlanta child murders. And my parents kind of freaked out too. 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.040 They pulled me in the house. Donald, You've got a 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.839 similar story of growing up, although you were way far away. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.919 So yeah, I was two thousand miles away California. Um. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.480 I was only maybe three years old when this was happening, 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.520 but I still remember kind of growing up with this 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.560 because you know, being black, this happened to all you know, 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.799 young black kids, young adults. Um. So just within the 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.000 black community, it was something that we talked about, you know, 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.520 our families, friends. Uh, And it just affected my childhood 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.359 growing up because it felt like it was happening right 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.240 on my block and you know, in my street, and 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.000 I looked like those victims. So it's something just stuck 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.679 with me. So when I asked Pain, um, I knew 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.720 we want to do something different before going to up 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.320 in Advantage season two, We're like, let's let's let's do 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.160 something else. Let's do something other than a missing person. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.600 Let's try you know, try to give our audience something new. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.880 And I just texted randomly one evening. I was like, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:47.680 have you ever heard of the latter of child murders? 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.080 And he said no? And I was like, how could 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.600 this mean so much to me? And he doesn't even 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:53.720 know what it is and he's from Atlanta, you know. 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.000 I know there's an age difference about ten years, but um, 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:58.760 it's still something where you know, we know about a 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.440 lot of cases that took place, you know, in the 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.920 seventies and the sixties, but not very many people even 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.840 who were born at that time, even remember Atlanta chymers. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.440 So something I felt like we needed to do, if 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.440 for nothing else, to inform and educate the general public 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.279 on you know, these tragedies. So before I asked Meredith 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.320 and Paying a question about that, because you were younger 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.880 than when these murders happened. Let's play a clip from 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.960 Atlanta Monster. Another young boy was then the body was 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.000 of a black teenager. Is the sixtieth victim to die 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:38.800 by asphyxiation. He's methodical appointment. Killer has an insatiable appetite 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.920 for the news. Our investigation is continuating. You know, we 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:56.080 can set eyes on you that's very good, Thank you. So. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.920 Our perception kind of walking into this story was maybe 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.360 people have heard about this, either you knew about it, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.440 you didn't know everything where you hadn't heard it about 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.720 it at all. And the overwhelming reaction that we got 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.520 from fans was I'm angry, I've never heard of this, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.120 and I think with a younger crowd that happened over 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.880 and over. What was your perspective, Meredith, Yeah, I mean 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.680 I wasn't alive at the time it was going on, 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.680 and I'm from New Orleans originally, so wasn't on my 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.760 radar in that way. But I found it really interesting 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.280 all the social parallels with what we're dealing with in 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.800 two thousand and eighteen and what was present in and 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.720 I think that's really what stood out for me the most. 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.840 To me, it was fascinating how much it sort of 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.120 shaped the culture in Atlanta. Before I did podcast, I 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.480 was directing music videos in Atlanta for a little bit, 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:47.080 so a lot of them were hip hop video, so 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.320 I was really kind of tied in to the hip 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.160 hop scene in Atlanta, and some even newer songs were 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.279 referencing Wayne Williams and the Atlanta murders. Outcast big boy. 0:05:58.000 --> 0:05:59.880 It was just kind of fascinated to me just how 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.840 much just sort of permeated um all over the place. 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.440 I mean, for generations. This has sort of like been 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.120 this urban legend in Atlanta a lot of ways. So 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.520 we took the conversation with victims and their families and 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.040 people who reached out to us very very seriously, and 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.440 I think part of the approach here was not trying 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.360 to step on what they wanted to talk about and 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.080 actually talking to people that had never had a voice before. Donald, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.320 what do you think about the approach of kind of 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.920 letting people talk and and really kind of enriching that 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.400 as part of the story. I think after this long, 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:38.720 I mean, you know, when we first started research in this, 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.240 we saw that, look, there's a story here to be 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.480 told that it's not for us to tell. It's for 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.920 the people who experienced it firsthand. It's for those people 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.640 who whose lives changed by the way they were raised, 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:50.680 you know, growing up right in the neighborhoods where kids 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.880 were disappearing from. It is the people who are ten 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.040 years old at the time, who are you know, writing 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:56.720 that age group of the kids they were coming and 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.919 missing and murdered. Let them talk. It's not about us 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.000 telling you how you should feel about it. It's about 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.120 that that brother you know who who was twenty years 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.920 old and lost his ten year old younger brother. Um, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.040 you know, it's the moms, it's the the friends. So 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.920 it's not about what we were trying to do or 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:15.800 what we were trying to accomplish. This really like, look, 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.440 let us sit back. It's too delicate of a situation 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.960 for us to come in and interject and ask a 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.840 bunch of questions that are, you know, trying to turn 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:25.880 over this rock. It's more like, look when we're talking 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.200 to victims, families and so that you all can really 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.440 experience how this impacted real people like these aren't characters. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.240 These are real people who lost loved ones. And there's 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.000 there's you know, it's not easy to just sit on 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.560 the phone and let someone talk. And I think that's 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.160 one thing, even with up advantage, I think it's something 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.280 that pain was able to do really well, was just 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.120 sit back and like say less so that other people 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.080 could say more. And that's how you get the good stuff. 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:51.080 You know, people didn't want to talk to us also 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.120 because this brought up really bad terrible memories. And then 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.080 there were people who came forward also where they wanted 0:07:58.080 --> 0:07:59.680 to tell us about the time where they were almost 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.320 do you know, by someone that it wasn't Wayne Williams, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.560 or by someone that they felt was Wayne Williams. And 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.040 it took a lot of us saying look, we'll come 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.440 meet you. You know who were scared to talk to us. 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:10.960 They don't want their names out there, they wanted their 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.600 voices disguise. There was you know, we dealt with everything 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.400 you could imagine, and we just try to be really 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.200 delicate with how we approach it because we knew how 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.440 sensitive it was. In mereth Um, you and I, actually 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.160 all of us, we would sit on the couch and 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.040 talk about this all. That's why I have no notes, 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.000 because we talked about this all the time. UM. Meredith 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.800 is a complicated case. UM. Probably between the two of us, 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.080 we've looked at how many hundreds of hours of archival footage, 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.199 UM notes and research. I mean, how do you put 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:40.839 all this stuff together and make sense of it and 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.040 be able to tell a story and audio that people 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:49.640 can digest. It's unbelievably hard. Sometimes I forget what is 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.600 in the podcast and what's just in my head from 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.520 all the articles I've read, and so I feel like 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.599 sometimes the story for me it feels bigger in the 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.040 child and just really boiling down and deciding what is 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.280 crucial and how to balance both sides of the story. 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.880 And yeah, it's been crazy though. We found some crazy things, 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.720 a lot of stuff that we never even put out there. 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:18.439 Um pay, let's talk about music. I think something snapped 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.760 with me and Up and Vanish where I just love 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.080 theme songs. I love the hook and I think everyone 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.040 can hum the theme song of season one of Up 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:27.960 and Banished in their heads. And that was a conscious 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.680 effort on your part to really to really layer in sound, 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.559 both emotionally and just kind of adding think about it. 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.360 You add um music and sound, you add archival footage, 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.200 you you add interviews, like how do you think about 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.960 putting all this together? Especially with music. I just wanted 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.760 to sound good, um, simple as that. I like being 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:57.480 immersed in the moment and just sounds driving you. Sometimes 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.959 it means that there's this really and tense music, or 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.400 maybe it's just the soft drone in the background that 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.160 you forget is there while this guy is talking. And 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.640 then oftentimes give it a break and just let it 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.640 be raw for a second, so you remember how real 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:12.640 everything is. So I think that balance is what I'm 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:17.000 always trying to find. And um for Atlanta Monster, I 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.840 was I was like, we're going straight eighties with this thing. 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:25.280 We're gonna get the Stranger Things soundtrack of podcasts. And 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.880 so I found this guy on Spotify. His name was 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.559 Makeup and Bandyset, and I found him on Twitter and 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:33.920 I send a message and then next thing you know, 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:38.840 he's scoring the entire soundtrack for Atlanta Monster. I think 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:40.839 we hired him to make like ten songs. He made 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.040 like a hundred songs. I'm just like every other day 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.199 he was like, listen to this, listen to that, And 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.880 I would send him segments of the podcast and he 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.760 would kind of customize and score it. But it was 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.839 awesome to me. The sound and just the identity of 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.160 a podcast is super important to me. It's a brand. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.360 It's bigger than just a podcast to me. So the 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.400 sounds and the music were super important, and that was 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.440 one of the first things in the day one meeting. 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.719 I was just playing samples, remember different music, and I 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:10.720 was like, Okay, I think I see what you're doing here. 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:12.959 But um, yeah, the music is a big deal to me, 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.560 and I was happy with the way it turned out. Well, 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:17.679 the other thing that we did here that might be 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:19.719 a little bit of a surprise and and frankly, I 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.360 think we're all like ten years older as a result 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.280 of this. UM in the aging process was out of 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.439 the gates. We said, Um, we don't want to just 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.320 tell his story and then release that story post post fact. Um. 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.480 We we made the decision around the time where we 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.240 knew we were going to have Wayne on the podcast 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.120 to go real time. And maybe people don't realize that, 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:45.360 but around episode five or six, we said, in order 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.520 to really get more people to come forward and tell 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.720 their stories and to have a dynamic where we're getting 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.079 a little bit more energy, UM with what Wayne is 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:55.679 saying and be able to react to it, let's go 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.920 real time. It sounds like a great idea. UM. And 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.720 it's tough. It was real tough. Meredith talked a little 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:06.480 bit about the complicated nature of that. Um, it's a 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.240 little daunting going on Monday and not knowing what the 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.480 podcast will be like on Thursday night. UM. But it 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.079 definitely we did get a lot of stories last minute 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.440 things that weren't gonna pop up otherwise, like the man 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.760 who started the basketball league, and I don't know. Sometimes 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.679 messages would come to you random people. We didn't think 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.559 we're going to talk to you ever, and so it 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.800 definitely was an important part of the process. But it 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.319 was nerve wracking to say the least, and definitely a 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.280 time crunch. I'm pretty sure I cried during this production. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.760 I was just so scared that I wasn't gonna make 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.200 it out in time or something. Um. Now it's stressful 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.320 because we're going, like, we'll just hop on a flight 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.719 and go to New York or Chicago to interview, um, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.120 the guy in the micro trace lab about the fibers, 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.160 and then the next day we're in the mountains and 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.600 Georgia doing this. We also have to make a podcast. 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.520 To the podcast is not just the interviews that you're getting, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.440 that is where most of it comes from, but who's 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.920 chopping that up and bringing it down? Whatever? You someone 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.199 for four hours, you're gonna hear ten minutes of it, 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.319 so someone has to go through and pick that. So 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.280 you know, I would ingest the audio. You'd be listening 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.040 to it and tagging stuff and turning it back out 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.480 and trimming it down and then sending it to makeup 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.880 and Vandy set to put music on it, and really 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.920 the whole time, we have this bigger picture of this 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.959 story arc that we're trying to tell and how we're 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.319 going to get there. But then something like a guy 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.079 emailing you and saying, hey, Wayne Williams abducted me. That 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.719 kind of changes things and is a new priority. And 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.319 maybe you didn't plan on doing that that week, so 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.520 I don't recommend doing it that way, but it um 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.440 the coolest part about it is that it's a truly 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:54.320 organic thing and anybody could come forward with new information 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.960 and shape this story themselves, which we think is really cool. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.160 And Donald, listening back to I think we had about 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.640 three stories of people that came forward, and we really 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.120 put those out there near the end of the of 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.120 the series. What's what was your reaction in hearing some 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.559 of those stories or meeting some of those people. It 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.880 was interesting. I think this pros and Consts of Pain 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:19.120 said how we actually produced this podcast. The biggest benefit 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.200 of being able to put it out and still not 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.920 be finished with, you know, the finale, is that you 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.440 get these people coming forward and the changed the trajectory 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.200 of where this podcast was going in. I mean, we 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.080 would find them in various corners. I like, my daughter 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:41.040 actually put the trailer on Instagram and I read a 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.040 comment on her page that said Wayne Williams tried to 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.400 abduct my dad and my uncle. I asked her, who's 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.440 this guy? Who's this person who commented that on your page? 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.880 He said, oh, that's my friend. Let me talk to him, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.160 and I talked to his dad, and then a couple 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.040 of weeks later we had his dad's story and that 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.400 was the story about um, him him being at the 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.440 his bike being stolen, and he said that Wayne Williams 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.320 lured them to this church and tried to deduct them. So, 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.120 I mean, the podcast doesn't sound the way it does 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.280 if we don't allow put that extra stress and pressure 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.920 on ourselves too, you know, actually give the audience, the 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.880 listening audience, an opportunity to participate. But I mean hearing 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.000 those stories firsthand. Like I did a pre interview with 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.080 with Tony and I talked to him for thirty or 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:22.840 forty five minutes and I heard this amazing story and 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.920 then I would, you know, put it in drop box 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.000 and tell pain. And Meredith is so I will sending 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:29.760 it to you guys, and I said, look, this is 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.320 something real. We need to bring him in and get 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.680 a real interview done with them. And then I meet him, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.320 bring him upstairs, and he and Pain would go into uh, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:41.000 you know, a little office studio and uh knock out 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.240 an interview. And then a lot of times I would 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.640 then not not listen to it until everyone else got 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.120 to listen to it, so that I could experience it 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.480 the same way and just try to figure out, you know, 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.480 when you're too close to it, sometimes you can miss things. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.840 I like to experience something's the same exactly way the 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.200 audience is. But I mean it's it's an extremely interesting process. 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.720 And no story is this aim or comes to you 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.120 the same way. You know, It's all they're all unique experiences. Yeah, 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.000 and you know, Pain, I think before we move on 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.440 to our discussion and up and vanished, UM, you know, 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:14.760 talk about I appreciate kind of Um. I call it 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:20.200 fearlessness of of going there, going there with a conversation 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:24.000 about race, picking up the phone and talking to anyone 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.280 you can, jumping on a flight like you talked about. 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.920 I think that matters in the the ultimate upcoming of 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:32.720 the show. What do you what do you think about that? Like, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:34.640 how how do you react to that? And how does 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.480 that inform the way you put stories together. I mean, 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:43.040 this is an uncomfortable story to tell. Being a middle 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.360 aged white guy, I was nervous about telling the story, 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.600 and I wanted to do it the right way, and 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.920 to me, that the only right way to do it 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.720 was to let everyone else do the talking. The story 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.120 wasn't about me. It's not about I wasn't even around. 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.320 I was essentially learning this as I went along. So 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.000 that was kind neat for me. Um, and I just 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.720 wanted to tell a big story. I saw how much, uh, 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.080 the atlantild murders had an impact on the city, on 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.119 the culture in Atlanta, the whole nation really with the 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.080 is sin o'clock to near your children are? I mean, 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:17.640 these things that people remember but they don't know where 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.879 they're from. And so I was just blown away by that, 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.080 and I was nervous telling this story. But um, you know, 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.040 I had to be fearless in a sense because at 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.159 a certain point, you just gotta I just gotta do it. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.080 And so you're always kind of making sure you do 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.480 the right thing, and you can't be scared to get 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.520 the story. Remember the first time I talked to Wayne Williams, 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.679 I was like, shit, what have I got myself into? Now? 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.680 What am I doing? What am I doing? With I 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.440 was like what am I doing? What am I doing? 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.520 It's like I don't know? Is the on the phone? Um? 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.399 But like I probably say what am I doing? Like 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.560 every day, like what am I doing? Just because it's 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.600 so bizarre to me sometimes that I'm I'm here. But um, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.000 people are people and they oftentimes they want to talk 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.280 to you. So if you listen to them, you'd be 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.160 surprised what they'll tell you. And that really is all 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.280 that I am doing. Everything else is just the storytelling 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.560 part of it. Um, So you can't be scared to 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.920 talk to somebody. Some people will turn you down, but 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.280 most people didn't, and most people don't they want to 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.000 tell you something. That's what I've learned. Also, I think 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:25.440 you have to clear the clear up the fact that 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:31.000 you're thirty years old, you're not middle age. It's like, 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.000 I guess I'm not bad'll make you old and I'm 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:39.959 not accepted the exactly. All right, that's a great natural break. Um, 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.240 let's bring out our next guests. Please welcome. Dr Maurice Godwin. 0:18:51.720 --> 0:19:01.239 Thank you, Thank you something Maurice. Yeah, I think uh, 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.320 I think most everyone here is familiar with Up and Vanished. 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.560 We're gonna we're gonna talk a lot about that before 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:11.480 we do. Thank you. Let's take a look at a 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:17.520 short clip. An investigative podcast about the disappearance of an 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.480 Oscilla teacher is set to premiere Monday. Titled Up and Vanished, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.840 The story details the findings of Atlanta filmmaker Payne Lindsay 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.359 as he makes a documentary on Terra Grinstead. The former 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.000 Oscilla teacher has been missing for nearly eleven years now. 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.560 When she was last seen in October two thousand and five, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:39.560 the Georgia Sweet Potato Paget. She was so loving and 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.359 so open and just. She was just a very carried 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.720 person and almost to the point where sometimes I thought 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:51.879 it was too much. I really do feel like it 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.920 is an abduction at this point. I think it's about 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:03.560 the flip upside down. A lot of rumors in this 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:11.600 case end up being truth. Do you want the truth? 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.680 Here's the truth I found out on January the PM 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:21.960 what happened to Tara? Dude? Want g I agents swarmed 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.080 up the con Orchard and ben Hill County. This Happer, 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:30.560 do you want us to cant Candy Dull series do 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.280 the job to the person of Tara, her insane child, 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.639 the mom from Tenderfoot TV and Atlanta. This is Love 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:50.800 and Vanished, all right? So Payne, you look at that 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.480 what year and a half almost two years later? What's 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.560 what's your reaction? How is that sunken, middle aged white 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:03.320 guy who um actually just watching that back and I 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.000 was like, damn this It's still crazy to me. The 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.000 whole thing is just crazy to me. Um. It gave 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.920 me goose bumps just then just watching and UM, it's 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.320 just an unreal story. And when I got involved, it 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.880 was something that no one was talking about, and every 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.200 one of Tara's friends was just torn up about this, 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.639 and no one had any clue what happened. No one 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.040 had any clue. And now there's been two arrests, which 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:32.600 is just unreal. And I'm excited for the trial and 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:40.159 if for Dustine this look yeah, And I actually started 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:44.200 relistening yet again to Up and Vanished. UM. And I 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:50.280 was struck after getting to know everyone more, especially you, Maurice. UM, 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.359 I was struck by you know, this is something that 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.320 you had followed for many years. Walked me through that 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:59.920 initial conversation with Paine and and how you guys connected, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.399