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Speaker 1: In Atlanta. Another body was discovering today at Police Task

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Speaker 1: Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,

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Speaker 1: one missing. We do not know the person or persons

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Speaker 1: that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the mode

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Speaker 1: from Tenderfoot TV and how staff works in Atlanta. Like

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Speaker 1: eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was as

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Speaker 1: fixy victor. Atlanta is unlikely to catch the killer unless

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Speaker 1: he keeps on killing. This is Atlanta Monster. Please welcome,

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Speaker 1: head of New Initiatives and an executive producer at How

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works, Jason Hope. Thank you, so thanks everyone for

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Speaker 1: coming today. Really excited about this panel. We're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about Atlanta Monster and Up and Vanish some of the collaboration.

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Speaker 1: All right, so let's bring the panel up. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: let you guys introduce yourself. This is Meredith Payne and Donald,

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Speaker 1: but give us a little bit more background on what

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Speaker 1: you two of you guys do. Hi. I'm Meredith seven

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Speaker 1: and I'm a creative producer at Tenderfoot TV. I'm Payine Lindsay,

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Speaker 1: I host and produce Up and Vanish in Atlanta Monster.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm Donald Albright, President Tenni for TV on

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Speaker 1: Paynts business partner. All right, let's get started. Payne and Donald.

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Speaker 1: We we somehow found a way to um start Atlanta Monster.

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Speaker 1: How did that happen? Well, I met you first, and

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Speaker 1: you hadn't heard him in Vanish yet, but you knew

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Speaker 1: of I've been Vanished, and you shot me an email

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Speaker 1: and he realized that we were in the same building

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Speaker 1: and he said, come down to my office and I

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Speaker 1: went down there, and I swear it was like a

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Speaker 1: job interview. He was like, so you like podcasts. I

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it's been making wine for a while.

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Speaker 1: And then you started listening to Up and Vanished and you,

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Speaker 1: for some reason brought up the Atlanta child murders in there.

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Speaker 1: And you had brought up Delian Childmers to me like

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Speaker 1: a week prior as a podcast idea. So you were

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Speaker 1: saying it. You were saying it, and I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's all have the meeting. And then that's basically how

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Speaker 1: it all started. Yeah, And it was one of those

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Speaker 1: things where house stuff works. Although we have been doing

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Speaker 1: podcasts for a long time, we had never done true crime.

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Speaker 1: And I think we knew at that moment, well, we

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Speaker 1: have to do something together, and you know, I grew up.

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Speaker 1: I was probably nine or ten at the at the time,

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Speaker 1: did not live anywhere close to Atlanta, but burned in

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Speaker 1: my brain were those images of way Williams and the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta child murders. And my parents kind of freaked out too.

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Speaker 1: They pulled me in the house. Donald, You've got a

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Speaker 1: similar story of growing up, although you were way far away.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I was two thousand miles away California. Um.

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Speaker 1: I was only maybe three years old when this was happening,

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Speaker 1: but I still remember kind of growing up with this

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Speaker 1: because you know, being black, this happened to all you know,

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Speaker 1: young black kids, young adults. Um. So just within the

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Speaker 1: black community, it was something that we talked about, you know,

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Speaker 1: our families, friends. Uh, And it just affected my childhood

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Speaker 1: growing up because it felt like it was happening right

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Speaker 1: on my block and you know, in my street, and

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Speaker 1: I looked like those victims. So it's something just stuck

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Speaker 1: with me. So when I asked Pain, um, I knew

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Speaker 1: we want to do something different before going to up

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Speaker 1: in Advantage season two, We're like, let's let's let's do

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Speaker 1: something else. Let's do something other than a missing person.

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Speaker 1: Let's try you know, try to give our audience something new.

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Speaker 1: And I just texted randomly one evening. I was like,

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Speaker 1: have you ever heard of the latter of child murders?

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Speaker 1: And he said no? And I was like, how could

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Speaker 1: this mean so much to me? And he doesn't even

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Speaker 1: know what it is and he's from Atlanta, you know.

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Speaker 1: I know there's an age difference about ten years, but um,

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Speaker 1: it's still something where you know, we know about a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases that took place, you know, in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and the sixties, but not very many people even

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Speaker 1: who were born at that time, even remember Atlanta chymers.

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Speaker 1: So something I felt like we needed to do, if

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Speaker 1: for nothing else, to inform and educate the general public

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Speaker 1: on you know, these tragedies. So before I asked Meredith

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Speaker 1: and Paying a question about that, because you were younger

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Speaker 1: than when these murders happened. Let's play a clip from

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster. Another young boy was then the body was

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Speaker 1: of a black teenager. Is the sixtieth victim to die

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Speaker 1: by asphyxiation. He's methodical appointment. Killer has an insatiable appetite

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Speaker 1: for the news. Our investigation is continuating. You know, we

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Speaker 1: can set eyes on you that's very good, Thank you. So.

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Speaker 1: Our perception kind of walking into this story was maybe

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Speaker 1: people have heard about this, either you knew about it,

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Speaker 1: you didn't know everything where you hadn't heard it about

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Speaker 1: it at all. And the overwhelming reaction that we got

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Speaker 1: from fans was I'm angry, I've never heard of this,

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Speaker 1: and I think with a younger crowd that happened over

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Speaker 1: and over. What was your perspective, Meredith, Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I wasn't alive at the time it was going on,

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Speaker 1: and I'm from New Orleans originally, so wasn't on my

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Speaker 1: radar in that way. But I found it really interesting

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Speaker 1: all the social parallels with what we're dealing with in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen and what was present in and

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Speaker 1: I think that's really what stood out for me the most.

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Speaker 1: To me, it was fascinating how much it sort of

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Speaker 1: shaped the culture in Atlanta. Before I did podcast, I

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Speaker 1: was directing music videos in Atlanta for a little bit,

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Speaker 1: so a lot of them were hip hop video, so

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Speaker 1: I was really kind of tied in to the hip

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Speaker 1: hop scene in Atlanta, and some even newer songs were

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Speaker 1: referencing Wayne Williams and the Atlanta murders. Outcast big boy.

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Speaker 1: It was just kind of fascinated to me just how

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Speaker 1: much just sort of permeated um all over the place.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for generations. This has sort of like been

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Speaker 1: this urban legend in Atlanta a lot of ways. So

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Speaker 1: we took the conversation with victims and their families and

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Speaker 1: people who reached out to us very very seriously, and

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Speaker 1: I think part of the approach here was not trying

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Speaker 1: to step on what they wanted to talk about and

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Speaker 1: actually talking to people that had never had a voice before. Donald,

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Speaker 1: what do you think about the approach of kind of

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Speaker 1: letting people talk and and really kind of enriching that

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Speaker 1: as part of the story. I think after this long,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, when we first started research in this,

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Speaker 1: we saw that, look, there's a story here to be

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Speaker 1: told that it's not for us to tell. It's for

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Speaker 1: the people who experienced it firsthand. It's for those people

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Speaker 1: who whose lives changed by the way they were raised,

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Speaker 1: you know, growing up right in the neighborhoods where kids

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Speaker 1: were disappearing from. It is the people who are ten

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Speaker 1: years old at the time, who are you know, writing

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Speaker 1: that age group of the kids they were coming and

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Speaker 1: missing and murdered. Let them talk. It's not about us

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Speaker 1: telling you how you should feel about it. It's about

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Speaker 1: that that brother you know who who was twenty years

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Speaker 1: old and lost his ten year old younger brother. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's the moms, it's the the friends. So

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Speaker 1: it's not about what we were trying to do or

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Speaker 1: what we were trying to accomplish. This really like, look,

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Speaker 1: let us sit back. It's too delicate of a situation

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Speaker 1: for us to come in and interject and ask a

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Speaker 1: bunch of questions that are, you know, trying to turn

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Speaker 1: over this rock. It's more like, look when we're talking

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Speaker 1: to victims, families and so that you all can really

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Speaker 1: experience how this impacted real people like these aren't characters.

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Speaker 1: These are real people who lost loved ones. And there's

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Speaker 1: there's you know, it's not easy to just sit on

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Speaker 1: the phone and let someone talk. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: one thing, even with up advantage, I think it's something

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Speaker 1: that pain was able to do really well, was just

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Speaker 1: sit back and like say less so that other people

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Speaker 1: could say more. And that's how you get the good stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know, people didn't want to talk to us also

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Speaker 1: because this brought up really bad terrible memories. And then

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Speaker 1: there were people who came forward also where they wanted

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Speaker 1: to tell us about the time where they were almost

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Speaker 1: do you know, by someone that it wasn't Wayne Williams,

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Speaker 1: or by someone that they felt was Wayne Williams. And

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Speaker 1: it took a lot of us saying look, we'll come

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Speaker 1: meet you. You know who were scared to talk to us.

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Speaker 1: They don't want their names out there, they wanted their

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Speaker 1: voices disguise. There was you know, we dealt with everything

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Speaker 1: you could imagine, and we just try to be really

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Speaker 1: delicate with how we approach it because we knew how

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Speaker 1: sensitive it was. In mereth Um, you and I, actually

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Speaker 1: all of us, we would sit on the couch and

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Speaker 1: talk about this all. That's why I have no notes,

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Speaker 1: because we talked about this all the time. UM. Meredith

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Speaker 1: is a complicated case. UM. Probably between the two of us,

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Speaker 1: we've looked at how many hundreds of hours of archival footage,

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Speaker 1: UM notes and research. I mean, how do you put

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Speaker 1: all this stuff together and make sense of it and

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Speaker 1: be able to tell a story and audio that people

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Speaker 1: can digest. It's unbelievably hard. Sometimes I forget what is

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Speaker 1: in the podcast and what's just in my head from

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Speaker 1: all the articles I've read, and so I feel like

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Speaker 1: sometimes the story for me it feels bigger in the

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Speaker 1: child and just really boiling down and deciding what is

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Speaker 1: crucial and how to balance both sides of the story.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's been crazy though. We found some crazy things,

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that we never even put out there.

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Speaker 1: Um pay, let's talk about music. I think something snapped

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Speaker 1: with me and Up and Vanish where I just love

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Speaker 1: theme songs. I love the hook and I think everyone

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Speaker 1: can hum the theme song of season one of Up

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Speaker 1: and Banished in their heads. And that was a conscious

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Speaker 1: effort on your part to really to really layer in sound,

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Speaker 1: both emotionally and just kind of adding think about it.

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Speaker 1: You add um music and sound, you add archival footage,

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Speaker 1: you you add interviews, like how do you think about

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Speaker 1: putting all this together? Especially with music. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to sound good, um, simple as that. I like being

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Speaker 1: immersed in the moment and just sounds driving you. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it means that there's this really and tense music, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just the soft drone in the background that

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Speaker 1: you forget is there while this guy is talking. And

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Speaker 1: then oftentimes give it a break and just let it

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Speaker 1: be raw for a second, so you remember how real

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Speaker 1: everything is. So I think that balance is what I'm

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Speaker 1: always trying to find. And um for Atlanta Monster, I

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Speaker 1: was I was like, we're going straight eighties with this thing.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get the Stranger Things soundtrack of podcasts. And

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Speaker 1: so I found this guy on Spotify. His name was

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Speaker 1: Makeup and Bandyset, and I found him on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: I send a message and then next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: he's scoring the entire soundtrack for Atlanta Monster. I think

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Speaker 1: we hired him to make like ten songs. He made

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Speaker 1: like a hundred songs. I'm just like every other day

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Speaker 1: he was like, listen to this, listen to that, And

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Speaker 1: I would send him segments of the podcast and he

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Speaker 1: would kind of customize and score it. But it was

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Speaker 1: awesome to me. The sound and just the identity of

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Speaker 1: a podcast is super important to me. It's a brand.

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Speaker 1: It's bigger than just a podcast to me. So the

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Speaker 1: sounds and the music were super important, and that was

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Speaker 1: one of the first things in the day one meeting.

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Speaker 1: I was just playing samples, remember different music, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I think I see what you're doing here.

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Speaker 1: But um, yeah, the music is a big deal to me,

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Speaker 1: and I was happy with the way it turned out. Well,

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Speaker 1: the other thing that we did here that might be

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a surprise and and frankly, I

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Speaker 1: think we're all like ten years older as a result

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Speaker 1: of this. UM in the aging process was out of

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Speaker 1: the gates. We said, Um, we don't want to just

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Speaker 1: tell his story and then release that story post post fact. Um.

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Speaker 1: We we made the decision around the time where we

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Speaker 1: knew we were going to have Wayne on the podcast

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Speaker 1: to go real time. And maybe people don't realize that,

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Speaker 1: but around episode five or six, we said, in order

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Speaker 1: to really get more people to come forward and tell

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Speaker 1: their stories and to have a dynamic where we're getting

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Speaker 1: a little bit more energy, UM with what Wayne is

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Speaker 1: saying and be able to react to it, let's go

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Speaker 1: real time. It sounds like a great idea. UM. And

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Speaker 1: it's tough. It was real tough. Meredith talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the complicated nature of that. Um, it's a

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Speaker 1: little daunting going on Monday and not knowing what the

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Speaker 1: podcast will be like on Thursday night. UM. But it

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Speaker 1: definitely we did get a lot of stories last minute

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Speaker 1: things that weren't gonna pop up otherwise, like the man

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Speaker 1: who started the basketball league, and I don't know. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: messages would come to you random people. We didn't think

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk to you ever, and so it

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Speaker 1: definitely was an important part of the process. But it

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Speaker 1: was nerve wracking to say the least, and definitely a

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Speaker 1: time crunch. I'm pretty sure I cried during this production.

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Speaker 1: I was just so scared that I wasn't gonna make

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Speaker 1: it out in time or something. Um. Now it's stressful

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Speaker 1: because we're going, like, we'll just hop on a flight

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Speaker 1: and go to New York or Chicago to interview, um,

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Speaker 1: the guy in the micro trace lab about the fibers,

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Speaker 1: and then the next day we're in the mountains and

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Speaker 1: Georgia doing this. We also have to make a podcast.

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Speaker 1: To the podcast is not just the interviews that you're getting,

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Speaker 1: that is where most of it comes from, but who's

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Speaker 1: chopping that up and bringing it down? Whatever? You someone

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Speaker 1: for four hours, you're gonna hear ten minutes of it,

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Speaker 1: so someone has to go through and pick that. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I would ingest the audio. You'd be listening

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Speaker 1: to it and tagging stuff and turning it back out

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Speaker 1: and trimming it down and then sending it to makeup

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Speaker 1: and Vandy set to put music on it, and really

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Speaker 1: the whole time, we have this bigger picture of this

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Speaker 1: story arc that we're trying to tell and how we're

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Speaker 1: going to get there. But then something like a guy

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Speaker 1: emailing you and saying, hey, Wayne Williams abducted me. That

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Speaker 1: kind of changes things and is a new priority. And

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Speaker 1: maybe you didn't plan on doing that that week, so

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Speaker 1: I don't recommend doing it that way, but it um

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Speaker 1: the coolest part about it is that it's a truly

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Speaker 1: organic thing and anybody could come forward with new information

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Speaker 1: and shape this story themselves, which we think is really cool.

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Speaker 1: And Donald, listening back to I think we had about

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Speaker 1: three stories of people that came forward, and we really

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Speaker 1: put those out there near the end of the of

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Speaker 1: the series. What's what was your reaction in hearing some

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Speaker 1: of those stories or meeting some of those people. It

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Speaker 1: was interesting. I think this pros and Consts of Pain

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Speaker 1: said how we actually produced this podcast. The biggest benefit

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Speaker 1: of being able to put it out and still not

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Speaker 1: be finished with, you know, the finale, is that you

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Speaker 1: get these people coming forward and the changed the trajectory

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Speaker 1: of where this podcast was going in. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: would find them in various corners. I like, my daughter

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Speaker 1: actually put the trailer on Instagram and I read a

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Speaker 1: comment on her page that said Wayne Williams tried to

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Speaker 1: abduct my dad and my uncle. I asked her, who's

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Speaker 1: this guy? Who's this person who commented that on your page?

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Speaker 1: He said, oh, that's my friend. Let me talk to him,

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Speaker 1: and I talked to his dad, and then a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks later we had his dad's story and that

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Speaker 1: was the story about um, him him being at the

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Speaker 1: his bike being stolen, and he said that Wayne Williams

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Speaker 1: lured them to this church and tried to deduct them. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the podcast doesn't sound the way it does

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Speaker 1: if we don't allow put that extra stress and pressure

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Speaker 1: on ourselves too, you know, actually give the audience, the

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Speaker 1: listening audience, an opportunity to participate. But I mean hearing

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Speaker 1: those stories firsthand. Like I did a pre interview with

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Speaker 1: with Tony and I talked to him for thirty or

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Speaker 1: forty five minutes and I heard this amazing story and

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Speaker 1: then I would, you know, put it in drop box

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Speaker 1: and tell pain. And Meredith is so I will sending

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Speaker 1: it to you guys, and I said, look, this is

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Speaker 1: something real. We need to bring him in and get

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Speaker 1: a real interview done with them. And then I meet him,

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Speaker 1: bring him upstairs, and he and Pain would go into uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, a little office studio and uh knock out

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Speaker 1: an interview. And then a lot of times I would

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Speaker 1: then not not listen to it until everyone else got

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Speaker 1: to listen to it, so that I could experience it

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Speaker 1: the same way and just try to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're too close to it, sometimes you can miss things.

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Speaker 1: I like to experience something's the same exactly way the

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Speaker 1: audience is. But I mean it's it's an extremely interesting process.

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Speaker 1: And no story is this aim or comes to you

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Speaker 1: the same way. You know, It's all they're all unique experiences. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Pain, I think before we move on

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Speaker 1: to our discussion and up and vanished, UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: talk about I appreciate kind of Um. I call it

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Speaker 1: fearlessness of of going there, going there with a conversation

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Speaker 1: about race, picking up the phone and talking to anyone

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Speaker 1: you can, jumping on a flight like you talked about.

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Speaker 1: I think that matters in the the ultimate upcoming of

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Speaker 1: the show. What do you what do you think about that? Like,

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Speaker 1: how how do you react to that? And how does

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Speaker 1: that inform the way you put stories together. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is an uncomfortable story to tell. Being a middle

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Speaker 1: aged white guy, I was nervous about telling the story,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to do it the right way, and

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Speaker 1: to me, that the only right way to do it

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Speaker 1: was to let everyone else do the talking. The story

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Speaker 1: wasn't about me. It's not about I wasn't even around.

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Speaker 1: I was essentially learning this as I went along. So

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Speaker 1: that was kind neat for me. Um, and I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to tell a big story. I saw how much, uh,

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Speaker 1: the atlantild murders had an impact on the city, on

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Speaker 1: the culture in Atlanta, the whole nation really with the

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Speaker 1: is sin o'clock to near your children are? I mean,

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Speaker 1: these things that people remember but they don't know where

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Speaker 1: they're from. And so I was just blown away by that,

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Speaker 1: and I was nervous telling this story. But um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I had to be fearless in a sense because at

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Speaker 1: a certain point, you just gotta I just gotta do it.

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Speaker 1: And so you're always kind of making sure you do

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Speaker 1: the right thing, and you can't be scared to get

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Speaker 1: the story. Remember the first time I talked to Wayne Williams,

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Speaker 1: I was like, shit, what have I got myself into? Now?

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Speaker 1: What am I doing? What am I doing? With I

341
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Speaker 1: was like what am I doing? What am I doing?

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Speaker 1: It's like I don't know? Is the on the phone? Um?

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Speaker 1: But like I probably say what am I doing? Like

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Speaker 1: every day, like what am I doing? Just because it's

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Speaker 1: so bizarre to me sometimes that I'm I'm here. But um,

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Speaker 1: people are people and they oftentimes they want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you. So if you listen to them, you'd be

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Speaker 1: surprised what they'll tell you. And that really is all

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Speaker 1: that I am doing. Everything else is just the storytelling

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Speaker 1: part of it. Um, So you can't be scared to

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Speaker 1: talk to somebody. Some people will turn you down, but

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Speaker 1: most people didn't, and most people don't they want to

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Speaker 1: tell you something. That's what I've learned. Also, I think

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Speaker 1: you have to clear the clear up the fact that

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Speaker 1: you're thirty years old, you're not middle age. It's like,

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm not bad'll make you old and I'm

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Speaker 1: not accepted the exactly. All right, that's a great natural break. Um,

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Speaker 1: let's bring out our next guests. Please welcome. Dr Maurice Godwin.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you something Maurice. Yeah, I think uh,

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Speaker 1: I think most everyone here is familiar with Up and Vanished.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna talk a lot about that before

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Speaker 1: we do. Thank you. Let's take a look at a

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Speaker 1: short clip. An investigative podcast about the disappearance of an

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Speaker 1: Oscilla teacher is set to premiere Monday. Titled Up and Vanished,

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Speaker 1: The story details the findings of Atlanta filmmaker Payne Lindsay

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Speaker 1: as he makes a documentary on Terra Grinstead. The former

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Speaker 1: Oscilla teacher has been missing for nearly eleven years now.

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Speaker 1: When she was last seen in October two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: the Georgia Sweet Potato Paget. She was so loving and

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Speaker 1: so open and just. She was just a very carried

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Speaker 1: person and almost to the point where sometimes I thought

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Speaker 1: it was too much. I really do feel like it

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Speaker 1: is an abduction at this point. I think it's about

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Speaker 1: the flip upside down. A lot of rumors in this

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Speaker 1: case end up being truth. Do you want the truth?

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Speaker 1: Here's the truth I found out on January the PM

377
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Speaker 1: what happened to Tara? Dude? Want g I agents swarmed

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Speaker 1: up the con Orchard and ben Hill County. This Happer,

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Speaker 1: do you want us to cant Candy Dull series do

380
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Speaker 1: the job to the person of Tara, her insane child,

381
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Speaker 1: the mom from Tenderfoot TV and Atlanta. This is Love

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Speaker 1: and Vanished, all right? So Payne, you look at that

383
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Speaker 1: what year and a half almost two years later? What's

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Speaker 1: what's your reaction? How is that sunken, middle aged white

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Speaker 1: guy who um actually just watching that back and I

386
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Speaker 1: was like, damn this It's still crazy to me. The

387
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: whole thing is just crazy to me. Um. It gave

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00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 1: me goose bumps just then just watching and UM, it's

389
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: just an unreal story. And when I got involved, it

390
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 1: was something that no one was talking about, and every

391
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Speaker 1: one of Tara's friends was just torn up about this,

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Speaker 1: and no one had any clue what happened. No one

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Speaker 1: had any clue. And now there's been two arrests, which

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Speaker 1: is just unreal. And I'm excited for the trial and

395
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 1: if for Dustine this look yeah, And I actually started

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Speaker 1: relistening yet again to Up and Vanished. UM. And I

397
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Speaker 1: was struck after getting to know everyone more, especially you, Maurice. UM,

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Speaker 1: I was struck by you know, this is something that

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Speaker 1: you had followed for many years. Walked me through that

400
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: initial conversation with Paine and and how you guys connected,

401
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 1: how you built on that over over the course of

402
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: many months. Okay, Well, I worked the case for her

403
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: sister for twelve years, for eleven years, and UM and

404
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: I had done I got no help from any law enforcement.

405
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 1: So everything I found was found on my own, and

406
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Speaker 1: UM and I had a book binder full of information

407
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: for since those March of O six UM. One day

408
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 1: I said I hadn't been to a web sluice, which

409
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 1: which is a website about crime and stuff. I said,

410
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: I hadn't been there in a long time. This was

411
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Speaker 1: like January of O sixteen. So I said, let me

412
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Speaker 1: let me go there and see what's happening, so about

413
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Speaker 1: any case. So I went there and then I went

414
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Speaker 1: to a clinical terrorist link and Uh, I noticed a

415
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,640
Speaker 1: new post nobody had responded and it was from pain

416
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: and he was looking to do a documentary UM about

417
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: terrorist case and he wanted to know about some information.

418
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: And I got to think, and I said, well he

419
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: needs help. So UM I called and left a message

420
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Speaker 1: and he called me back and we talked for two hours.

421
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 1: And it's it's only because of that contact between Pain

422
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 1: and I that this case was solved. That's it. And uh,

423
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Speaker 1: I mean we we butted heads, you know, or in

424
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Speaker 1: the beginning, Uh still do but uh we we butted heads,

425
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: um in the beginning and stuff. But I knew when

426
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Speaker 1: he was making those trips to to a scylla, that

427
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: he was doing the shoe leather work, that it was

428
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 1: necessary on following one up, uh, everything that he could

429
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: possibly follow up on and um and and and it

430
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: worked and and there's no there and I'm sort of biased,

431
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: but there's there's nothing. There's nothing else like up and vanished.

432
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: There's no music that that this is a signature. This

433
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: is a signature podcast in the podcasting history. How would

434
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: you describe our relationship? You think, well, you know, we

435
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: we we but it has I mean it was sort

436
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: of like, uh, a man and a woman going through

437
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: a bad divorce. Um, and they divorced and then remarried

438
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: and there's and they're still fighting. But the main thing

439
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: is our focus was on bringing justice and resolution to

440
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: terrorists case. And um, and we did, I mean, Pain

441
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: had got so much information on this thing. The GB

442
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: I was calling him, They were calling me for his

443
00:24:53,080 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: telephone number. Did you give it to him? Yeah? And uh,

444
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: I mean this it's just unreal. But this is a

445
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: signature with a hundred and fifty million plus downloads and

446
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: a TV show coming out soon about it on Auction Channel. Um,

447
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: this is a signature podcast that never will be repeated

448
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: by any other podcast for the music, or the case

449
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: or anything spectrum. I almost don't know what to say.

450
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: We're done here. So I was actually thinking back a

451
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: little bit about how the show started to build, and

452
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: I think there is a little We were talking a

453
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: little bit about this before we came on, about how

454
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: the perception that this show only became big when the

455
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: news broke of some of the suspects being arrested and

456
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: actually is not true at all. It was actually really

457
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: rising and kind of built organically as this tale of

458
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: a small town of Cla, Georgia and kind of the

459
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: relationships and kind of your you know, digging for the truth.

460
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: It was a hit way before. Talk a little bit

461
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: about um, how how that grew um, and and also

462
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: Donald just how you guys kind of snapped this together

463
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: early to kind of have a plan if you had

464
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: a plan to check it out there. Yeah, so I

465
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: mean quick history, um Pain said he was directing music videos.

466
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: I was managing talent in the music industry. We were

467
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: working together, UM, and we were both burnt out of

468
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: it and said, look, we want to do something else.

469
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: He's the one who came up with up and Vanish

470
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: found the case and said I want to do a

471
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: documentary on something on this case. We realized quickly we

472
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: didn't have documentary type money. And the entry, you know,

473
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: the bar to enter the podcast UM space is UM

474
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: it's low. You know, it's a low level of entry

475
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: when it comes to financial So I got some audio

476
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: equipment and he just started on this journey. UM. We

477
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: didn't know what it was gonna be. We didn't know

478
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: if it would be big. We didn't know if it

479
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: was a business or a hobby. And I think the

480
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: first week he did about what was about maybe three

481
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: months of pre promotion. UM shot some of that great

482
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: footage issue you just saw, and first week it was

483
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: like five thousand down loads and we're like, man, we

484
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: we just we're doing something killing it. And I mean

485
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: we didn't know about podcasting, We don't know about monetization.

486
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: We didn't know about hosting. It was you know, we

487
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: didn't know anything. And then about five episodes then we

488
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: started really growing and uh we we remember looking back

489
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: now seeing emails and people saying, hey, you know this

490
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: is this might be something that's big. We're about to

491
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: hit five hundred thousand downloads and I'm thinking, like, we're

492
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: gonna hit a million downloads, and then next thing, you know,

493
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: we're at ten million, and like, man, fifty million, a hundred.

494
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, then you just like you just don't realize

495
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: how quickly this thing is excelled to be something much

496
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: bigger you ever anticipated. And to answer you a question,

497
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: before the week before the case was solved, I think

498
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: we hit like fifteen million down loads. It was a

499
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: really big podcast before the arrest were made. And then

500
00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: as soon as there's arrest were made, we had already

501
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: relationships with with press, with Good Morning America, with Inside Edition,

502
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: they were already in contact with this, so as soon

503
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: as the case broke they called us first and they said, look,

504
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: we want to you know, we want Pain to be

505
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: on Good Morning America tomorrow. And then from there, I mean,

506
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: we were doing twenty million downloads a month and you

507
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: also bought a shirt from Walmart um and Ostilla because

508
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: there was no other places. So my first time on TV,

509
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: I was wearing this big, old baggy Walmart shirt. Walmart shirt,

510
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: but um it fit nice. I mean go Walmart. Um.

511
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, what's unique to me is that, like, as

512
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: the podcast was growing and the numbers were shooting up

513
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: really simultaneously, the it was just like this pressure cooker

514
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: in the town of Oscilla, and it's really it was

515
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: its height when the story broke and the tip came

516
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: out and the two rests were made. It was just

517
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: happening simultaneously. You could feel it. And you know, one

518
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: of the guys was arrested, Bo Dukes for the first

519
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: thing he sent his friend was just a link to

520
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: up in Vanish. So at that point it was just

521
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: almost if you were from Oscilla or South Georgia, you

522
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: knew about this and you couldn't escape it. And so um,

523
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: that to me was super unique. And then when the

524
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: case broke, it just kind of just caught fire from there.

525
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: It was just unreal. But when I first met Payne,

526
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: he drove from Atlanta to my house, North Carolina to

527
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: first interviewed me and stuff, and I told him, I said, listen,

528
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: I don't think my accent is gonna go over. I

529
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: think it might hurt the podcast. But um, it's done

530
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: just the opposite. So Maurice, I was just gonna, I

531
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: was just gonna compliment you on what an interesting person

532
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: you are. But I mean that with all due respect.

533
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: Um So we have UM, I think backstage some of

534
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: the live shows, we have you in studio a couple

535
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: of times. You're a really fascinating guy. You've you've got

536
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 1: a really incredible deep background in criminal psychology, You've got

537
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: a PhD. You've been coming to crime con for a

538
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: long time. Um, talk to us a little bit about

539
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: um you're feeling about about podcasts and and the role

540
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: they have to play and solving some of these cases. Well,

541
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: I think they can play a huge or old The

542
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: main thing is, um pain. Um didn't sit behind a

543
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: microphone in Atlanta and and and accomplished this. He stayed

544
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: in a silita, He went to bars in a silla.

545
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: He got he got in some touchy situations in a

546
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: silla interviewing people. I mean he got pretty bad there

547
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: for a while. I mean I was threatened and he

548
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: was and um so he was doing the leg work,

549
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: which what is what created up and vantished me even

550
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: the episode that was about to come out before the

551
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: rest we were moving we we had already moved on

552
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: to looking at students. We had two A three that

553
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: we were trying to find information on so to you know,

554
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: with with Bow and Ryan being former students, I mean

555
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: we were already headed in that direction. Um. But I

556
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: think podcast can can do a great deal in helping

557
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: move investigation alone. But you can't set behind a microphone

558
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: and just wait till somebody calls you on the phone

559
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: with a til. You've got to go out and create something,

560
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: especially when you didn't have any paperwork. We had no

561
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: documents from law enforcement, no nothing law enforcement. Everything that

562
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: Paine did on this podcast in this case and myself too,

563
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: we created are We created the information out of nothing.

564
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's good. It was good information, but

565
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: we worked and worked and worked to get it out

566
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: of people of and that that's one of the main

567
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: differences help to Vanished and another podcasts. I think I'll

568
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: say this too. I think you know we mentioned, you know,

569
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: fifteen million downloads before the arrest or still as a

570
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: as a town of three thousand people. So if there's

571
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: fifteen million people internationally listening to this, what do you

572
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: think is happening in the town of three thousand. Everyone

573
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: is talking, they're putting fingers at each other, and so

574
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: when you're hearing about up and vanished, you're like, Okay,

575
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: what is this? What are they saying? Because I know

576
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: something I'm not telling anybody, So you're going you listen

577
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: to this podcast. Then our discussion board, I mean bow Dukes,

578
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: who was arrested, Um, you know, in conjunction with the

579
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: with the murder, was in our discussion board talking to people.

580
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: The tipster was in our discussion board talking to people.

581
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: You know. I think two weeks after the podcast started

582
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 1: you received a tip of a group of friends who

583
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: were somehow connected to this, and bow Dukes was in

584
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: that picture. So, um, we're circling around like sharks, you

585
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And it's stilla in the threats

586
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: who are coming from people who knew we were getting close.

587
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: They knew that look, you better not say my name

588
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: on your cast because they were they didn't want to

589
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: be associated as you know, being potentially guilty or not

590
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: even guilty, but the type of person who would cover

591
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: this up and just not say anything for a decade.

592
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: And I think one thing important to impressed me. When

593
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: I first met Pain, he said, I don't care what

594
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: anybody thinks. And if he, if he, if he, if he,

595
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: if he had to take him the attitude he would

596
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: to go half as far as he did in the

597
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: Tea gram steadcase, I care what you think. Record all right,

598
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: So in a few minutes, we're gonna open up for

599
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: Q and A. If you if you all do have

600
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: a question, please stop up to the microphone. But I

601
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: have two more important questions. Uh. I just heard something

602
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: from season two of Up and Vanished just a few

603
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: minutes ago. Pain painted, Meredith. You you guys have been

604
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: on the road. What can you what can you tell us?

605
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: What can you break news on with regards of what's

606
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: coming with season two? Um, there will be a season

607
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: two of Up and Vanished on a whole new case. Yes,

608
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 1: thank you. UM, we were saying, maybe we added up yesterday.

609
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: We were sent over three thousand cases from people, and

610
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: we've gone through at least three dozen cases thoroughly, and

611
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: then we narrowed it down to like six cases. And

612
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, I got a phone call

613
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: from somebody that I know, and it just changed the

614
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: whole plan altogether. And we've been out west um, not

615
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: in Georgia, in this tiny little town UM, investigating this

616
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: missing person's case and talking to people and building this story.

617
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: And it's UM, it's really bizarre. And we think that

618
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: this is a place where UM it's in a lot

619
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: of ways similar to Tearr Grinstead's story, and we're hoping

620
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: to create a similar environment UM in this town where

621
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,280
Speaker 1: people are talking again. Cases go cold because people weren't

622
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: talking about them anymore. So we want to get people

623
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: talking again and just turn over some stones and find

624
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: out what happened to this person. And it'll be coming

625
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: out in uh likely August this year. So yeah, and Meredith,

626
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: you've been on the road to any any little bit

627
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: that you can tell us anything. Blow this. By the way,

628
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: I wasn't even I should stop there. I've I think

629
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: Paine has been telling me lies through text of where

630
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: he's actually at and I'm convinced that he's trying to

631
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: throw me off the trail to so pay attention. It's

632
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: not in Georgia, it's in the West coast. I can

633
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: get me at all get a new number. He's getting there.

634
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: How about you, Mereth, I'd say it's UM very different totally.

635
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like a real place. It feels like

636
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with the show Twin Peaks, it feels

637
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: like Twin Peaks. All right, that sounds great. UM. Secondly,

638
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: it's going to be a busy summer. You've got a

639
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: TV show starting up production here pretty soon for Oxygen

640
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: UM anything you want to talk about their UM super excited. UM.

641
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: It's been a long journey, but we have been developing

642
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: an up and vanished TV show, UM where we're gonna

643
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: go UM to other small towns and tell their story

644
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: of a missing person and trying to figure out what

645
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: happened to them and just take what we've learned from

646
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: this and tell their stories and create an outlet for

647
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: people and a vocal piece for families who need UM

648
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: who need that. So we're super excited about that. UM

649
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: flying out again next week to talk to them about it,

650
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: and UM things are going well and hopefully very soon

651
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: we'll have an update on when you can watch this.

652
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, awesome And and my and my last uh

653
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: A question for for all of you is, UM, where

654
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: do you see the stories. Where do you see things

655
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: heading for for your your team? Are you you want

656
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: to get in more into TV? Is it a hybrid

657
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: of storytelling? Like now that things that I know you're

658
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: a filmmaker at heart. Pain, What's what's kind of the

659
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: thing that's driving you moving forward? Now? UM, I just

660
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: want to tell great stories. UM. I like podcasts. I

661
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: like telling it that way. UM. I've always want to

662
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: be a filmmaker since I was a kid. So I

663
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 1: want to make films. I don't want to just label

664
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: myself one thing. I'm a filmmaker, I'm a podcaster. I'm

665
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: doing this. I can only do that. I want to

666
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: do all of it. I want to tell stories on

667
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: every scale, every medium that I can that that works,

668
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: and UM, that's what I'm trying to do. So, UM,

669
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: I love podcasts. There's still other podcast ideas I have

670
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: that are outside of Atlanta Monster End Up in Advantage

671
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: that I'm eventually going to do as well. But I

672
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: also want to take a stab at TV and film

673
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: and UM tell story that way, and so I'm looking

674
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 1: forward to the chance to do that. All right, let's

675
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: open it up for some questions. How about you? Hello? UM,

676
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to ask about my dad. I grew

677
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: up hearing about the Atlantic child murders, actually, even though

678
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: they predate me abo about three years and thirty three,

679
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: So I'm ancient. Um. I don't know how I'm I'm

680
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: upright and walking um anyway, But no, he always told

681
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: me about that because he had gone to conventions. He

682
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: was a police officer um, and gone to training and

683
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: heard lectures and everything. And I think he may have

684
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: talked to some of the detectives. I don't remember, but

685
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: he always told me about the capture Wayne Williams when

686
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: they heard the splash in the river and found him

687
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: not far away, and that was an educated guest reasoned

688
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: that he might be dumping a body there, and they

689
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: thought they might may be able to find it. But

690
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: the was always stuck with me was the terror of

691
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: the random chance they had someone there, they had someone

692
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: there that hurt it, and they found him quickly enough,

693
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: and they were able to find a body later to

694
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: tie it to it. And what do you think. I

695
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: hate calling it luck because there was a lot of

696
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: hard work involved. What do you think about the role

697
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: of luck or chance in solving these murders, especially when

698
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: it's serial killer, and it's often a stranger crime. I

699
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't put anything past him. I thought one time, what

700
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: if Wayne knew they were doing this takeouts. I had

701
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: a theory for a second that maybe Wayne tossed nothing

702
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: off the bridge. Maybe Wayne's just hanging out over here

703
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: being suspicious and he's just like, what, I didn't do anything,

704
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what he did when he got

705
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: pulled over. I don't know what you're talking about, but

706
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: why was he there? And why is this story changing?

707
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: Why is he still lying about it thirty plus years later.

708
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: It's the only story in your life that matters right now.

709
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: You should have figured it out by now. And so

710
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: that part bothers me. He lied to me about it.

711
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: I think I wouldn't put it past him that he

712
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: was there, knowing that the police were there, almost wanting

713
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: to get caught. I'm also almost thirty three, so ancient

714
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: over here as well. That's you're not going to live

715
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: this down payne Um. My question is did you ever

716
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: actually get you? Obviously Atlanta Monster ended with you not

717
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 1: getting to speak to Wayne in in jail. Um because

718
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: of all of the lockdowns and things that prevented. Did

719
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: you ever get to go after the fact, or do

720
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: you have plans to actually talk to him in person

721
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: at all? Yeah, I mean there may be a point

722
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: where I talked to him face to face on camera, UM,

723
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: for maybe a documentary about this project or something. Um.

724
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: But other than that, I have a lot of material

725
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: of Wayne that I can use for that as well.

726
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, I'm forty three, so I'm absolutely decrediful. Um.

727
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: I grew up in a tiny town in northern Minnesota

728
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: in the mid eighties, and I heard about the Atlanta

729
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: child Monster in my almost all white town, and that

730
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: it was that our mothers would tell us you'd be

731
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: home by dark because just like that man was taking

732
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: children in Atlanta, there's somebody out there that's going to

733
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: take you. You know. It was kind of this thing

734
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: that we heard, So I always grew up knowing a

735
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,959
Speaker 1: little bit about it, and as I got into true crime,

736
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: I kind of became somewhat fascinated with Wayne in a sense. Um,

737
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: And after listening to the podcast in the sense I'm

738
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: on the one hand, Okay, it's a convenient scapegoat for

739
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: the city to get this public relations nightmare out of

740
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: the way. Then I listened to him, and the story conflicts,

741
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, well, yeah, he absolutely did it, and

742
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: I don't know a whole lot about did these killings

743
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: really truly stop with his apprehension? Were there still children

744
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: missing and in any big city, I suppose they go

745
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: missing but that fit his profile afterwards, or the police

746
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: just kind of like putting those under the rug because

747
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,479
Speaker 1: they don't want to do I can't really get an answer,

748
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: and I wondered if you guys had any thoughts in

749
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: that or definitive idea either way on were these poor

750
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: little children still missing afterwards being taken? And thank you?

751
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: I think you're right on both. I mean, I think

752
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: both things could happened. I think that, uh, the murders

753
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: didn't necessarily entirely stop. Of course, they wanted people to

754
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: think that because it made their case look better. I

755
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: think it's just a story of law enforcement needing to

756
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: close this thing out, needing almost having to sweep it

757
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: under the rug. It was the wrong thing to do.

758
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: They handled it the wrong way, but that's what they did.

759
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that Wayne wasn't guilty of anything.

760
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: So did they handle the wrong way? Yes? They did?

761
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: Is Wayne guilty of something, yes, and you know the

762
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: mythology of the mythology that builds the longer that time

763
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: passes on, so many things like did that stop? Did

764
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: murders stop? Or not? Um, so many examples of this.

765
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: I think it was a one sided narrative for so

766
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: many years that these things kind of became urban legends.

767
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: And as a result, I think we needed to We

768
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: need to get some of the crazies in there too.

769
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: Like part of this was getting all the stories on

770
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: the table, even the ones we didn't believe, and let

771
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: them talk to and let you make up your mind. Yea, yeah.

772
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: But the story isn't just about um the victims or

773
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams. Is how big this thing was in the

774
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: city and how big it was culturally, you know, for generations.

775
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: So we wanted you all to understand why someone could

776
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: come up with such a crazy conspiracy theory. And it's because, yeah,

777
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: the city did you know, sweep us under the rug

778
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: for how many murders? Ten, twelve, fifteen. This is one

779
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: of those cases where anything you're thinking, any opinion here

780
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: of what happened in the Lanta child murders could be

781
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: partially true. All theories can work together in some way.

782
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: The clan could have done some, Wayne could have done some.

783
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: Some could have been around them. Um, the city did

784
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: rush to judgment and close this. And you know, there's

785
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: everything that you're thinking could be partially true. And that's

786
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: the that's why this case is so big, that's why

787
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: there's so many questions that are still left unanswered. Yes,

788
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: go ahead. I am sixty four, lovely. About about nineteen

789
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: years ago, I had a son that was murdered. It's

790
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: not got anything to do with Wayne Williams. I've not

791
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: been able to watch any kind of crime stories that

792
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: we're on regular TV because I can't afford cable. I'm

793
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: so proud to be here. About nine years ago, a

794
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: private investigator, through her friend begging, she agreed to take

795
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: my sen's case. On when you said about law enforcement,

796
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: we have Barney fives that work in the county where

797
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: I came from. Arrogant, arrogant, barn Barney Fine. My son

798
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: was executed. I lived in a small area. We know

799
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 1: who killed our son, we know there's no proof. About

800
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: two years ago, the new district attorney exhumed his body

801
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: because I woke up in the middle of the night

802
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: thinking about DNA undrew his fingernails. Uh. I was so

803
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: angry because there was t B. I have no faith

804
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: in anybody, but there was twenty people and the private

805
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: investigator that had helped me in the exhimation. Uh. Of

806
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: course nothing came out of it. This is a small

807
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: area and we know who did it and this people.

808
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: There's been other people that's died there. It's Carroll County, Tennessee, Mackenzie, Tennessee.

809
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: My son was fifteen years old, Tony Drumwright, and he

810
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: was an absolute great kid. You couldn't get him to

811
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: say us, to wear a word. And there was a

812
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: meth lab in our woods that he happened up on.

813
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: And we you know, we know all of this, but

814
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: we cannot prove anything. And it's just been so frustrating

815
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: to me and I will never shut up about it,

816
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: private investigators. It's cost me my family and my marriage

817
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: and it's been a real struggle every day. But Shila Wausaki,

818
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: which is a speaker here, she is the private investigator

819
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: that's been trying to help me, and I pray that

820
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: someday it will come to pass. But when you said

821
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: that about law enforcement, it's just really disheartening. Now we

822
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: have a new district attorney in Carroll County, and I

823
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: feel like I was pivotal in helping him get elected.

824
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: I trust him, but you know, he can only do

825
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: what he can do, and the people that worked for

826
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: him are still the same arrogant, pompous Barney Five's So

827
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: I know that has nothing to do with what you

828
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: guys are doing, but I just want to interject that

829
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: Sheila had told me that here about a month ago,

830
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: she did a podcast. First time I've ever heard what's

831
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: a podcast? I still haven't been able to hear it,

832
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: But tomorrow I'm bringing in my computer and they're gonna

833
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: get me up to date. We'll thank you than sorry

834
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: for the loss to you. I just wanted to interject that,

835
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: thank you very much. So I'm twenty eight, so I

836
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: guess I'm a child. Uh So. The thing that really

837
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: strikes me about both of these cases is how they

838
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: really give you a snapshot of the identity of a community.

839
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: And I think it's also really interesting that both of

840
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: them have had the opportunity to get responses from the

841
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: community that they're about in real time. And I was

842
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: hoping you could talk a little bit about how as

843
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: a creator, as a storyteller, the experience has been to

844
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: be getting feedback from the people that you're sort of

845
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 1: trying to portray. It's, uh, it's interesting. It's nerve wracking.

846
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 1: You're you're always trying to I mean, you gotta answer

847
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: for everything you do. So, um, I'm just trying to

848
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: be honest about it and just straightforward and kind of

849
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: like you said it back to the fearlessness. At a

850
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: certain point, you gotta just let go and not be

851
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: afraid to get out there and talk to somebody and

852
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: then put it out there. Um, it's interesting when the

853
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: town is listening to it, you can see it having

854
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: an effect on people. Um, they may they may be

855
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: scared to talk to you again, or someone might come

856
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: out of the woodwork and want to talk to you

857
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: all of a sudden. It's a constant game and battle

858
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: you're you're playing, and so it's you gotta be on

859
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: your toes at all times and just be careful. So

860
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: it definitely makes it more difficult, but their result is

861
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: people talking again and um, new information being able to

862
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: shape this story, which is important. Yeah, I mean, can

863
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: we finally have conversations about some of these big topics

864
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: in America? Can we put them out there? I feel

865
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: like listening to podcasts is a way for us to

866
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: put something out there, but for people in their own

867
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: one to one intimate space to be able to kind

868
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: of get a little bit deeper in a way that

869
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: they cannot engage on Twitter or with the local news.

870
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: And it's just being honest. It's having an honest conversation.

871
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 1: And podcasting is the most honest form of communication these days,

872
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: I believe, and that's why it resonates so much, and

873
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 1: I think we need to do more of that last question,

874
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, thank you. I'm twenty nine, so I have

875
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: a couple of months left of my youth. Um. So

876
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: it's my understanding that there was some DNA that linked

877
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: Williams to bal dessert. Can you tell me a little

878
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: bit more about that and your thoughts on it and

879
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: why it wasn't in the podcast much. Um? Well, first

880
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: of all, I'd be clear, it didn't entirely link him.

881
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 1: It was it was partial and it was yeah, they've

882
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 1: matched in a way, but it wasn't any more conclusive

883
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: than um I would say the bloodstains or anything else. Um.

884
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: And to me, it was that was sort of an

885
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: investigative finding from somebody else, but we was CNN who

886
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 1: too Brooke then Yeah, and we actually talked a little

887
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: bit about that where recent I we had that conversation

888
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: about do they still have the clothes from some of

889
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: the kids, and could they match the d N A

890
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: and could they go back in time? And the answer is,

891
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: we don't know. We don't know where that stuff is,

892
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 1: we don't know if it would will ever be public. Um.

893
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: I think it is really interesting to hear in kind

894
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 1: of the present day news of the Golden State Killer

895
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: and others, this kind of new wave of what can

896
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: we do with older cases and match DNA evidence? I

897
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: think that is compelling, but kind of where do we

898
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: go from here? We just we didn't want to put

899
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: something out there where we didn't have the whole, the

900
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: whole story, and so that was one thing that we

901
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: just really didn't concentrate on. There's really no more that

902
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: I could add to that, and I knew that there

903
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: was already investigative findings that we had through Larry that

904
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: was new information that said the same thing, but actually

905
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: even more clear and more definitive. And you know, having

906
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: talked to Patrick Baltazar's brother and heard his side of

907
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: the story. There was just a lot of just misinformation

908
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: over there, and I wanted to find the information on

909
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: my own. Bauma is every piece information out there just

910
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: doesn't make it in there, and it's that for some

911
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: people that that's like, uh, it's hard to understand that.

912
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: But we looked at the big picture at all times

913
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: and we were never going to omit something that we

914
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: thought did steered you the wrong way. We also wanted

915
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: to make sense to you too, because for a while

916
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: it didn't even make sense to us. That's a good question.

917
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, except well, thank you to Meredith Payne,

918
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: Donald and Maurice, and thank you all days here. Thank

919
00:51:50,120 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: you with a future starting sh