WEBVTT - AI…A visionary’s unique take! 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:12.959 Now really, well, Hello everybody. Happy Tuesday if you're listening 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.680 on a Tuesday, if not, happy, whatever day you're on. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.840 I am Jason Alexander here with my best pal Peter, 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.799 and this is the podcast really really and this is 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.480 a glorious day for many reasons. But the biggest thing 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.160 for me is if you've been following the show. Peter 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.120 has refused for many episodes to wear are really no 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:37.080 really branded logo shirt, But today you have either given in. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.280 I've given risen to, You've given it. 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.000 You know what, I don't care. I don't care what 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:44.879 direction you've gone to achieve this end. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.360 You look like a failed racing team. This is what 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.400 it looks like. But it's fine. I'll logo. I feel better. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.400 I feel better about the whole. That's good because the 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:58.240 topic we're doing today, I'm a little I make no 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.120 bones about it. This is we're we're scared. We're going 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.720 into waters that I find treacherous and scary and dark. 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.000 And then I find I think treacherous, scary and dark. 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.399 Although in reading as much as I have about AI 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:15.200 and chat GPT, it's there are a lot of questions 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:19.200 about the accuracy of what we're reading. And there's always 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.760 an underlying reason that people are putting out information. And 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.320 I'm a little bit questioning what we're hearing out of 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.400 Silkoon Valley because I don't know how much you can 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:31.000 trust the tech guys to give you transparency about what's 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:31.680 really going on. 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.760 Absolutely, so to state our really know really for the 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.800 day we are all aware of the emerging technology of 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.840 artificial intelligence AI. Our really know really today is that 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.759 Elon Musk and three thousand other tech influencers, tech executives, 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.240 academics have created an open letter where they have asked 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.360 that we pause our work on the advancements of AIS. 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.400 I'm moratorium on what could be a dangerous AI and 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.520 the race to advance it. The guys who are creating it, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.559 pushing it, promoting it, and are probably going to profit 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:08.080 from it are at the moment saying maybe we should 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:09.000 slow this down. 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.679 A little bit. Really, no, really, so we wanted to 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:15.280 find out Number one. I don't think it's a nice letter. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.200 I haven't seen it. Are they pausing? I don't think so. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.000 And there's theory that Elon must wanted to slow it 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.079 down so he can catch up everybody else. We wanted 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.160 to get on somebody who was amazingly invested in this 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.880 and Jarrel Nier. You look at his bio, first of 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.160 all international bestseller, on many many books. I've watched a 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.160 bunch of his talks and I'm fascinated with his take 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.440 because he was right there at the start of virtual reality, 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.359 the beginning of the Internet, and talks about it. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:45.400 Do we have Al Gore? 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.960 I think there? I got confused for him. He was. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.200 He was named one of the twenty five most influential 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.680 people in the previous twenty five of tech history. Also 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.760 one of the hundred most influential people in the World 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:03.000 by Time magazine, top fifty World thinkers by Prospect magazine. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.320 Really the people who named him this were any of 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:05.959 them on the list? 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:07.040 I don't know? 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.519 Or is this the low hanging fruit going that looks sparkly? 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:10.079 Jared? 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:12.360 Thank you for coming on. Jared. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.040 Hey, Hey, I am doing splendidly. How are you? 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.520 Guys do very well? Thanks for visiting with us. I 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.520 know how busy you are, and also telling you are 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:25.720 the fact that he would talk to us is just 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:26.680 an immense. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.760 We're always impressed with people who we'll talk, who are 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:31.960 willing to talk down to two little idiots like us. 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.040 Well, you know, in Silicon Valley, we aspire to become 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:45.400 as wise as Hollywood. We aspire were trustworthiness, good and 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.520 your business acumen. Yes, I'm very high to learn at 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:50.080 your feet. 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.800 Let me so, you said so many fascinating fascinating Number one, 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.520 Let's address the pause? Am I right to say? Hold 0:03:58.560 --> 0:03:58.960 on a second? 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:05.280 So? Well, look, I'm I mean the pause letter was 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:07.880 written by a buddy of mine who lives like almost 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.120 he's a near neighbor. That's a anthony from the Institute, 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:17.039 the Future of Life Institute. I mean I I A 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.520 lot of my dear friends signed the pause letter. I didn't. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.599 The problem I have with it is I think we 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:31.080 sometimes overdramatize or sort of exaggerate what we're doing, and 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.640 it sounds in the near time like we're doing it 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:38.120 in order to be careful and safe. But I'm afraid 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:42.520 we're actually Oh God, I want to say this in 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.160 a nice way. I feel like we're kind of a 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.520 little bit saturated by the science fiction movies we grew 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.920 up with instead of looking clearly at what we're doing. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.200 And so, you know, we grew up on the lovely 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.440 portrayal of Commander data on the ninety Star Trek. We 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.359 grew up with the Matrix movies. We grew grew up 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:05.040 with the Terminator movie and so on, and cumulatively that 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.760 becomes almost like a religion you grew up with. It's like, 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.640 you know, at the we just had a satyr and 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.080 we repeat this story of leaving Egypt there every year. 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.760 And I think something like that happens in computer science, 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.040 where we see these stories of like that, our own 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.360 programs will take over every year. And now there might 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.000 be something like that that could happen, but that would 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:29.960 be some other kind of program than what we're doing 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:31.760 now or what we know how to do now. What 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.240 we're doing now is a giant mashup technology where we 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.240 take everything we can get that anybody's written, anything's photographed 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.760 or painted, anything people have coded, where we grabbed the 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.560 code and we put it into this giant mashup machine 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.279 and then we can make new combinations of what's there 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.080 from people. So what we're really looking at is a 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:58.400 new giant social collaboration mediated by this amazing mashup technology. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.839 Can it do harm? Sure? Can we make ourselves crazy? Yeah? 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.000 Can we screw up our economy? Yeah, can we You know, 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:09.880 we can do a lot of stupid stuff with it, 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.320 but this is not skyn it. This is not this 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.640 thing that's going to take over. And I feel like 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:21.440 when we overdramatize it, when we let it become a monster, 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:27.440 we're actually in a way making the problem worse. We're 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.440 doing harm. So I that's why I didn't sign it, 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.000 you know, so, But that's you know, I say, I'm 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.320 not saying anything that I don't say to the people 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.240 who wrote it, who were, like I say, friends, And 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:41.680 what I'm what I'm trying to do right now is 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.880 go around to the community and see if we can 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.760 all agree on something a little bit more concrete and constructive. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:49.880 But that's I'm not ready to say what that might 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.480 be it. But I believe we can do things that 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.240 express our concerns and try to I think we can 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:00.080 try to be more careful and ethical, because I do 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.320 you think we need to do that, but I think 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:04.600 we need to do it without terror. We can't allow 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.120 ourselves to be paralyzed by our childhood fantasies. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:12.600 Jared. The examples you're citing, you know how, nine thousand 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:20.320 and space, otasy and Skynet what seems to be dominant 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.520 in those fictions is that this technology has become both 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.000 sentient and self directed. Is any of that true in 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:28.520 what is being established right now? 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:35.400 Well, you know, there's a kind of edge of uncertainty 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.200 about all this because this question of what's sentient and 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.920 what's intelligent is not a very well formed or precise question. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.800 And actually, we humans treat each other as sentient as 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.280 a matter of faith, if it's okay to use that word, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:55.520 you know, And I think the approach that I've come to, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.160 which is not the common one in the tech community, 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.800 but I do think think it's where people land after 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.240 they really considered what's going on here, is that the 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.160 pragmatic choice, is it okay to say? Can I use word? 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:16.640 It's like this? Does this offend your Hollywood? So I 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:19.720 should I be playing softball? I'm sorry? 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.680 Any Way, we're doing a podcast. We are Hollywood adjacent 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:23.240 at this point. 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:33.360 Yeah, the Hall of Hollywood's about to be Hollywood. But look, 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.040 we should talk about the Writer's Guild while we're on it. 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.600 But well we'll get back to that. So look, the 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.880 pragmatic issue here is does it make any difference what 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.959 you think, like if you think that the big computer 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:52.400 programs like the GPTs are possibly sentient or whatever. Does 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.079 that make any difference or is that just how you feel, 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.719 because sometimes you can have opinions and feelings about things 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.880 and it's really just your private thing, and it does 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.040 doesn't matter. In this case, I think it matters a 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.480 bit because people treat the programs differently in a way 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.320 that could have consequence for others. Like for instance, let's say, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.120 let's just say, hypothetically, it's a few years from now 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.680 and we've made our models even bigger, and we can 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.400 just ask for a movie and it appears. We can 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.160 say I want I want to have Gone with the 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.520 wind redone by Spielberg, except with an all midget cast, 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.439 and it should be a musical in the style of Soundheim, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.080 and blah blah blah. Okay, you do this thing. It 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.400 doesn't sound like a very good movie, but anyway, we 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.480 don't care, because we'll make that thing. When we make it, 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.840 there won't be a script because the script will happen automatically. 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.240 There won't be a composer because the soundtrack will happen automatically. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.800 There won't be a director of photography because that'll happen automatically. 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:53.480 It'll just pop out. But the thing is there will 0:09:53.600 --> 0:10:01.280 have been writers and directors of photography, and everybody who 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.400 would normally contribute and get a credit to a movie 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.560 will be back there. It's just that they'll have provided 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.600 the example material that's mashed up to make this new thing, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.920 so the process will be different. It'll just pop out 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.520 out of a giant statistical calculation for better or for worse, 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.320 even if it's not a good movie. But if we 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.960 want to remember who created the examples that are used 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:27.120 to create that, we can still calculate whose examples are important. 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.200 Those people can get credited and paid even if there's 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.160 not any explicit, explicit stage where things to do happen. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.280 So the thing is, if you believe that we have 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:42.120 as a giant alien brain that's just totally freestanding and 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.520 doesn't depend on people, you're less likely to want to 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.280 adopt a system where you acknowledge the people and come 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.480 up with a new kind of economy where people can 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.839 feel proud for what they've done authentically and honestly. If 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.960 you're willing to accept that this whole thing is just 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.760 a giant mashup of people, and you're not so concerned 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.920 with whether it's sentient or something. If you just treat 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.360 it as a giant tool, then you open your eyes 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.040 and you can have this new kind of economy where 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.840 people can still be proud and paid honestly based on 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.440 what they've actually done. So this thing about whether we 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.960 believe the programs are sentient, there's no absolute yes or no. 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.560 It's all based on faith anyway. But pragmatically, if you 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.160 believe that computers aren't sentient, you have a better chance 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.120 of seeing a way to make a decent society, or 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.240 let me put it in another way, if you want 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:36.040 the world to benefit people, it's just easier if you 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.479 think people are special. That doesn't mean in some absolute 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.560 sense people are special from the point of view of 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.439 every possible alien or God or whatever. But for us, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.240 if we think people are special, we have a better 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.840 chance of doing a civilization together in which people are special. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:52.920 I mean, it's just obvious. 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.520 But Jared, you know what I love about all the 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.439 stuff I've seen and read that you've done. It's positive, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.080 it's hopeful, which is real refreshing with all of these 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.839 doom and gloom scenarios. But we call people that were 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.360 fired from factories that you automated to learn code, and 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.280 now they can't even find work doing that because technology 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.360 is going to be writing the code. And then you 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.240 read that a gold Maenzacs are one of the investment firms, 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:22.079 said three hundred million jobs should be eliminated. And I'm thinking, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.800 what are they teaching in schools to the next generation. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.640 And I think the head of our podcast division even 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.480 said his kid will probably have a job that doesn't 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.000 even exist today. So how do you take that into 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.160 consideration when we're looking out for people to tell those people, 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.520 what should we be doing to make sure you're not disenfranchised? 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.839 Well, look, the future is going to be different from 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.400 the past, and I think it's hard to it's a 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.040 fools game to try to solve all these things perfectly 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.320 in advance. But can I give you like sort of 0:12:54.679 --> 0:13:01.440 one scenario that I'm sure it's hopeful and and you know, 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.480 I'm sure it's not perfect, but it's like a start. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.720 So here's this scenaria. Where I live part of the 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.439 time is at the top of the ridge in Berkeley, California. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.680 And before the recent extraordinary rains, we went through a 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.679 tremendously damaging series of fire seasons, you. 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:21.040 Know, with. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.480 For us, it meant five mandatory evacuations. And the fire 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.600 marshal came around and said, you know, you really shouldn't 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:34.400 count on your neighborhood continuing to exist. And maybe, you know, 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.760 in La people are familiar with this problem. Certainly people 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.680 in Malibu are very familiar with this problem. And I 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.400 became really interested in, like, why does our neighborhood still exist? 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.160 Why hasn't it burned down like so many other places? 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.679 And what I realized is that sometimes the city and 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.720 county get people to trim their trees or improve their roofs, 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.600 not that often, because we're all really prickly and difficult 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:06.000 up there. Sometimes sometimes somebody will fix the area around 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.240 their own house or whatever. But there's this whole other 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.240 thing in between, which is the people who are hired 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.800 to trim the trees and be the gardeners and keep 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.440 the grounds. They talk to each other over the fences, 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.600 and they coordinate to reduce fire threat by reducing how 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.600 trees touch each other and stuff, you know, And I 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.640 was like amazed that this is going on unofficially and 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.440 without any mandate. A lot of them are undocumented a 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.360 lot of them don't speak English. Some of them are 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.240 multi generation American citizens with great businesses and are doing well. 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.560 Some of them are marginal. But I was amazed that 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.600 these people are there keeping us alive. So why am 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.920 I talking about them? Because there's also a prototype robot 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:48.560 we play with the lab once in a while, which 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.400 looks like a mechanical snake that can slither up trees 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.720 or phone poles and do trimming and then slither down. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.720 It looks really cool. It's not quite ready for primetime yet, 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.200 but some kind of robot will be out there doing 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.280 trees at some point. And the question is what happens 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:01.880 to these people? 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:02.680 Right? 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:04.360 So it's not a factory job, but it's a blue 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.080 collar job, right, So I want to give you a 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.280 vision of what happens to them. All right, So what 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:15.280 happened in a few years. There's some van that's painted 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.240 like it was in a nursery school, and it drives 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.240 up beside them with all of these cameras and other 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.240 sensors looking at them, and it's operated by oh, let's 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:24.960 just say Google, which likes doing that sort of thing. 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.280 But it's like one of us tech company things, you know, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.600 there's just like and that the people who were going 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.640 to change saying, oh crap, okay, it's coming. They're studying 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.640 what they do and the robots will come, and now 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.240 we're gonna what will become of us? What'll we do? 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:44.359 And we'll live on tents, you know, and by the Starbucks. 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.400 I guess what are we going to do? And there's 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.480 another option, though, which is they say, Aha, the robots 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.000 are coming, we're going to form a data union and 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.640 we're going to negotiate for them to get data from us. 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.280 And we're going to become We're going to not be 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:00.560 a manual labor class anymore. We're going to become a 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.800 new creative class. Like all those fancy writers and and 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.760 set designers and composers and all those people. We're going 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.400 to be the new creatives. And the way we're going 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.760 to do it is every single year, we're going to 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.120 start designing extraordinary things in trees. We're going to trim 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.600 tree so that they're also holograms. We're gonna trim lawns 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.400 so that they have mazes in them. We're going to 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.280 do all these incredible things, and we're going to go 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.760 through fashions and then people are going to want that, 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:26.880 and they're going to ask for it from their robots, 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.320 and the robots are going to depend on our designs, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.560 and we're going to get royalties from it. So instead 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.880 of becoming a dependent class once things are automated, there's 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.560 this option to create a new creative class where there 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.840 wasn't one before, because the technology makes that possible. All right, 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.840 that's the sort of buzzword for that approach of inverting 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.560 everything and making it a person first technology. We call 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:57.960 that data dignity. Now, anybody who hears it might response skeptically. 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.280 They'll say, well, how many possible jobs like that could 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.639 there be for that particular example of supplying examples for 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.400 gardening and tree trimming robots. Probably not a whole lot 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:09.639 of jobs. But on the other hand, there'll be a 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:11.919 zillion examples like that, because there are about to be 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.159 tons and tons of kinds of robots, and tons and 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.520 tons of examples of AI what we call AI programs. 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.520 I don't like the term, but there'll be tons of 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.400 examples of this stuff. And every time there's a new 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.680 example of some kind of fancy automation, there's an opportunity 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.520 for a new world of creative people to turn that 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.639 thing into an art form instead of just purely a 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.679 functional activity. And so I think what you can have 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.520 is an image of a future advanced economy where you 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.679 have an expanding set of creative professions based on what 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:47.480 technology allows to become creative, instead of an expanding set 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.760 of dependent people. Now does that mean everybody gets to 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.240 be creative? I mean that math probably doesn't work out. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.240 But the point is to get to a society where 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.320 you don't have a gigantic preponderance of people who feel useless. 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.440 People who feel useless turn into the very most dangerous 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.520 kind of creature, which is a seeker of meaning. And 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.399 we don't want that. That doesn't end well. So we 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.880 want we want to have this pleasant concordance, this pleasant 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:24.440 consilience between economic value, personal meaning, personal connection, and provision 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.520 of things that are valued on all their other terms 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.760 with other people. That's what we want. That's how you 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:31.280 make a decent society. 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.200 I mean, okay, and that sounds amazing, But to your 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:40.040 your point, you've said that the internet tech. The problem 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:44.520 is not the system, it's the monetary system behind it, 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.959 which rights is what drives. It's a business model Okay, 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.520 are there enough Jaron's out there that are going to 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.800 be creative, They're going to feel it's important not to 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.080 disenfranchise people that we have to create and put together 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.280 labs to create this stuff, because not everybody can do 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.480 it unless there's a business model that makes sense, because 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.000 the business mode may not originally make sense. 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.000 And I if I can just tag onto them. Going 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.840 back to your Hollywood example, where you know we're talking 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:15.040 about credit and payment and royalty, it presumes a Hollywood 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:19.160 like structure in which the producer, the financier is willing 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.679 to afford credit to the to the originators. You know, 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.399 we're we're I don't know much about the rap world, 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.560 but you know I hear about people using samples of 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.119 other artists' music and not crediting and not necessarily paying 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:33.439 for them. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.320 Well, that goes back to Mote, It goes back. That's 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.119 that's the history of recorded music. Yeah, ripping off people. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.160 So I just worry about those original creators that are 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.320 building the database not receiving those credits from people that 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:45.719 are after pure profit. 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:51.760 The scenario I just described to you is technically feasible. 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.840 You're bringing up a very important question, which is it 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.800 is it politically feasible. So what we have to remember 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.679 is the reason that artists get paid is not that 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:07.240 producers love paying artists. Now it's possible that neither of 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.440 you have ever met any Hollywood producers, but I have, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.120 and I can assure you they don't enjoy paying artists, 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.040 and I don't want to burst your bubble or shock 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:21.040 you with that information. Now. The reason they do is 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.360 that a century ago there was this world of political 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:31.560 activism around unions and union rights, and different kinds of 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:36.679 creatives were able to establish rights to be paid. For instance, 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.000 musicians had this thing called mechanicals, which computers have kind 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:45.720 of blasted apart, and I within tech culture there's a 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:47.600 lot of this idea, well everything should be free, and 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.679 musicians wanting to be paid as terrible. That was a 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.679 big deal for years. I think the worst example of 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:58.400 things falling apart is local news. We've lost local news 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:05.280 because we central all advertising, including localized advertising, and I 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.440 think the world suffered terribly for that. And so there 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:13.320 needs to be a political process to acknowledge contributions and 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.159 commercial value of people out of the periphery, not just 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.720 the people who own the hubs like we do, and 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.159 that'll be good for everyone. So that is a political question. 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.639 That's that's not a technical question. Is it possible to 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:27.680 get there? I mean, we did it a century ago, 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.280 you know, so it's clearly possible. Whether whether we can 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.320 do it again, I'm not certain, but I do want 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:37.280 to give you a couple of signs of hope here. Okay. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:37.720 Sure. 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.960 The business model that really screwed with people in the 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.919 last couple decades is called the advertising model for the Internet. 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.880 But it's not really advertising. It's it's a paid influence 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.280 model where you're supposed to be sharing for free. You 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.760 get free services, but then the money goes to the 0:21:55.800 --> 0:22:00.600 companies off to the side, out of view, and some 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.440 of the money is from traditional advertisers, some of it isn't. 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.520 Some of the advertising is totally fine, a lot of 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.639 it isn't. And in fact, since the whole system is 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.520 turned into a persuasion machine, it's like laying out a 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:18.960 carpet for unsavory persuaders. Like the whole structure is just 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.679 an invitation to putin to send fake people and to 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.679 try to screw up our elections and whatnot. Now, the 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.520 thing is part of the reason that that worked was 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:35.119