1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: is null. They call me Ben where he was super 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: producer Paul deck Into You are you that makes this 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know? Charles Manson is 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: dead Part two. Yes, last time we went over most 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: of the background information you're gonna need to know all 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: in our opinion, and we we talked about his history, 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: how he grew up, what he experienced when he was 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: a kid. And then you know, a young man played 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: some of his tunes. Yes, yes, uh may for many 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: of our listeners be the first time you were introduced 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: to what was it? Garbage, Garbage Jump, the music of 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: Charles Manson. There's a lot more out there, actually, if 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: you want to just get on YouTube, you can find 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: and in his and in the years after Helter Skelter, 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: numerous musicians also covered manson music. Of course, Marilyn Manson 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: did it, uh, Several other prominent artists and I think 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: the Beach Boys also took some of his either lyrics 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: or melodies. Wow. You know, guys, I have to tell you. 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: Last night I watched the first episode of mind mind Hunter, 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: and you know, it's dealing with the psychology of criminality 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: and how the FBI, in particular, another law enforcement began 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,279 Speaker 1: using psychology and trying to figure out why people do things. 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: And it gets the big fat thumbs up from super 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: producer Paul Oh yeah, huge, Wow, he is just flailing 29 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: those thumbs around. Did it just did it communicate with 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: you at a personal level, Paul, I've rarely seen you 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: this exac. I see, I haven't even met Kemper I 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: think yet. Yeah, yeahs and yeah. What what it does 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: is really gives you a foundation for what it was 34 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: to come in terms of psychoanalyzing serial killers and trying 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: to get inside the minds of serial killers, which was 36 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: very taboo. The idea even in the show to even 37 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: attempt this was in some way by the brass at 38 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: the FBI, like heresy. You know, it was a tantamount 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: to um empathizing with these you know, psychotic killers, and 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: they were just not okay with it. But it was 41 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: totally not seeing the forest for the trees and not 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: realizing this is a very valuable tool into you know, 43 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: figuring out what U current active killers, how they might behave. Yes, 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: And in the case of Charles Manson, it uses his 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: case and him the man himself, as a quick example 46 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: of the way people or the way law enforcement thought 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: about finality at a certain time. Right as the Manson 48 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: case was going through, and having just done the first 49 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: part of this series on Manson, I was fascinated by 50 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: kind of the turns. And we've talked about serial killers before, 51 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: We've talked about and again Charlie Manson was not a 52 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: serial killer, but he was a criminal, at least in 53 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: the eyes of the public, in the eyes of the 54 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: justice system. Um. But again, just fascinating to think about 55 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: it in that way. I guess there's argue that he 56 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: was a serial killer, that he just used other people 57 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: as his weapons. I would disagree, respectfully, but I would 58 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: disagree right Well, there's an important differentiation we have to make, 59 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: and there's some questions that still remain unanswered. For instance, 60 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: is a person who commits multiple murders automatically a serial killer? 61 00:03:54,680 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: The answer is no. Is a person who so there 62 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: will seem to be a theme or a compulsion in 63 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: serial killing right, and of course there has to be 64 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: mental illness. But if Manson is a serial killer, and 65 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: this controversial if we consider Manson a serial killer because 66 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: he did have a psychosis, right, he did seek to 67 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: launch a race war, Uh, he ordered people to kill 68 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: the world is full of people who order other people 69 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: to kill. Does that make them all serial killers? Does 70 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: that make, for instance, a politician who sends people the 71 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: war a serial killer, any general that's ever existed, someone 72 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,119 Speaker 1: who launches a drone. It's a it's a tough question, 73 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: very interesting question, right, um. And the thing I wanted 74 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: to get to surreptitiously through this whole Mine Hunter thing 75 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: is that this past episode we really looked at how 76 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: Charles Manson became Charles Manson, and at least the ways 77 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: that a psychologist would look at it. Now, what we're 78 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: going to get into this week is some of the 79 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: con conspiracy theories surrounding him and perhaps other ways that 80 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: this monolith creature was created. And we highly recommend, of course, 81 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: your life is your own, but we highly recommend that 82 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: if you have not checked out Part one of Charles 83 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: Manson Is Dead, you check it out before you continue 84 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: listening to this episode. Please We'll wait. That was pretty fast. Yeah, 85 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: faster than I expected, honestly, and I'm a bit worried. 86 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what you did, but good good on you. 87 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So one interesting point that 88 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: we kept finding in the course of our research here 89 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: was the idea that there were other, as of yet 90 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: unidentified Manson family murders. At this point, we can say 91 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: that it's plausible, that's quite possible, but there hasn't been 92 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: any concrete proof because several members of the Manson family 93 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: agree to uh bring law enforcement to the remains of 94 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: other murder victims that were not at that point tied 95 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: to the family. So it's unfortunately not a far jump 96 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: at all to imagine the family itself or or Manson 97 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: as an individual, may have committed murders that remain unrevealed today. 98 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: At this point in recording, we don't know. And what 99 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: we do see is that often when a criminal like 100 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: this dies, more information comes out. Right. I think in 101 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: our earlier episode may have been Nole mentioned the cancer 102 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: that had been a family secret that was ultimately led 103 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: to Manson's demise. So it's possible that there are still 104 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: secrets there, you know, been in this area here of 105 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: other murders, I really feel like Gary Hinman, who was 106 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: what is that? July sixty nine. It's the first murder 107 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: that we had that we talked about in the first episode. 108 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: And the reasoning behind that was because, at least according 109 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: to what we know, he wouldn't join Manson's rock band. 110 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: And to kill someone for something that seems so on 111 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: the surface, so not important to the greater scheme of things, Uh, 112 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: it leads you to believe that perhaps somebody else did 113 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: something that slighted Manson or part of the family that 114 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: would cause them to kill him. I see what you're saying. Still, 115 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: though it, you have both been in bands before, multiple bands, 116 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: and I know it can be an intense personal relationship. 117 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: Do you ever really wanted to kill anyone of your bandmates? 118 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: Did you? I mean tour that's it's very much a 119 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: marriage with every single person that's in the group or 120 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: even touring with you. But I've never wanted to do 121 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: any harm to anybody that didn't want to join one 122 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: of my bands. Yes, the nature of consent at heart, right, Uh, 123 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: the nature of agreement, And we do promise that we 124 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: will get we will somehow explain that strange quote you 125 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: heard at the beginning of part one. Uh. In another 126 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: show that Nolan I do, called Ridiculous History, we have 127 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: an episode about the importance of informed consent. If we 128 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: plugged Ridiculous History on this show, yeah, a little bit, 129 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: but we should plug it harder. Well. Yeah, check it out, 130 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: you guys. Ridiculous History. It's me and Ben talking about 131 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: silly historical nuggets and sometimes things there's a nice crossover 132 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: between certain things we talked about on the show. I 133 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: was gonna say, yeah, sometimes, I mean it's always silly, 134 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: like the word ridiculous is in the title, but a 135 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: lot of times it's just in my mind fascinating stuff 136 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: that I didn't know existed. And I've worked for the 137 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: site for a long long time and I hadn't read 138 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: a lot of these articles. And of course, you know 139 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: how I work. I'm probably going to try to pull 140 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: cajole or convince you to appear on a segment in 141 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: the future. Please. Speaking of segments, we've got some new 142 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: ones coming up very soon with our nemesis Jonathan Strickland, 143 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: who is doing great work as our complaint department on 144 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. So if there's 145 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: a problem you have with the Manson episode. Please remember 146 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: you can write to us directly. We are Jonathan dot 147 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: Strickland how stuff works dot com. We're rewarding him for 148 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: his good stewardship by giving him the opportunity to torture 149 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: us on ridiculous history with quiz quizzes. Oh that's brilliant. 150 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: There's a karma. There's a karma to this, and somehow 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: I got off scott free because we like you. All 152 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: things come around that there's checkers in, there's chess, right, 153 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: and there's an informed consent. One of the greatest ethical 154 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: quandaries of human experimentation or social studies, and one of 155 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: the strangest and perhaps most disturbing examples of what happens 156 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: when there's experimentation without informed consent in the United States 157 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: would be the group of projects known collectively as m 158 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: k Ultra. For years, the CIA conducted a series of 159 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: just cartoonishly illegal experiments on civilians, on ethnic minorities, on 160 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: CIA agents, on CI agents themselves, on prisoners, and on soldiers. 161 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: They were most famously using psychedelic drugs in efforts to 162 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: create so called Manchurian candidates to brainwash people to make 163 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: them do things that they would not ordinarily do, like 164 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: a sleeper agent kind of situation, or they can be activated. Yeah, 165 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: I mean that that is certainly one of the major aspects. 166 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: But a lot of a lot of the stuff even 167 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: just went into how do we get somebody to be 168 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: more responsive when they're being interviewed? Right, more suggestible? Right? Yeah, 169 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: truth serum, sleeper agents, and truth serums. In the book 170 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: Helter Skelter, which we mentioned earlier by Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor, 171 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,239 Speaker 1: the primary prosecutor for the Manson trial, the author discusses 172 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: Manson's programming techniques in depth, and he says that a 173 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: lot of the programming techniques that Manson used on his 174 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: followers were similar to things that the US military would 175 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: use to indoctrinate people intelligence agencies would two And you'll 176 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: often find this is true. We often find that Manson 177 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: was also an inmate at Vodcaville Prison during the time 178 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: that the CIA was using prisoners there for MK ultra experiments. However, yeah, 179 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: this is a huge However, if you look at the timeline, 180 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: this was after the take La Bianca murders, so it's 181 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: not if you learn something from the CIA that he 182 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: used in murders later. He did not learn it at Vacaville. Yes, 183 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: it must have been previously. Maybe they were learning something 184 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: from him during that time. It is however, yes, oh right, 185 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: you blew my mind a little bit. It is though. 186 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: It is interesting going back to our episode on the CIA, 187 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: the FBI and combat encounter culture, right, it is interesting 188 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: how quickly a pretty right wing dude who's an avowed 189 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: racist trying to start a race war or at least 190 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: ideologically fluid right, very much a member of the Church 191 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: of Manson. It's interesting how he was so immediately and 192 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: completely tied to the um the threat of the violent left. 193 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: It definitely feels strange like there was maybe some opportunity 194 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: there right at the very least, it feels a little 195 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: bit opportunistic, right, And that's just the beginning, because we 196 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: have more Manson conspiracy theories on the way. Welcome back, 197 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back. So next on our list of Charles Manson 198 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, this one involves the Processed Church and the 199 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: famous Church of Scientology US no, please, Processed Church of 200 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: the final judgment, don't sue us so, and Manson was 201 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: transferred to a federal penitentiary at McNeil Island in Washington. 202 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: In n he claimed to be a Scientologist. People who 203 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: support this theory pointed out that Manson maintained contact with 204 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: members of the Processed Church, which is sort of like 205 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: like a Protestant Reformation style offshoot of the Church of Scientology, 206 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: but even darker, which is hard to believe. Um, and 207 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: oh but darker darker than Scientology. Yeah, okay, yeah, that 208 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: sounds like fun. How cool is saying that? What do 209 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: you think? Yeah, yeah, I think so, okay, we can yeah, 210 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: because look, none of this is slander liabel and will 211 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: definitely will definitely also to be fair, present what the 212 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: Church of Scientology themselves say about Manson. The Processed Church 213 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: of the Final Judgment. It really got you spooked, man, yeah, man, yeah, 214 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: And the process Church of the Final Judgment is a 215 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: very very strange, very intense thing. You can see some 216 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: earlier episodes that we did both video and audio on 217 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: the allegations of the Processed Church. It's earlier alleged involvement 218 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: with serial killers circling back, but for now, suffice to say, 219 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: people who believe that Manson was a member of Scientology 220 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: of the Process Church. Uh. They they say that he 221 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: maintained contact with these organizations while they were incarcerated, and 222 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: they think he learned a lot from them. Yeah. It's 223 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: also believed that the indoctrination techniques that Manson was using 224 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: on his followers, he learned a lot of those. Perhaps 225 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: he didn't get him from m. K Ultra, but maybe 226 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: he got them from Scientology or Process Church members, or 227 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: maybe even other intelligence agencies or perhaps the CIA prior 228 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: to him being incarcerated. In the other place, it must 229 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: be mentioned that there is again no solid evidence of 230 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: Manson's involvement with the Process Church of the Final Judgment. However, 231 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: there are multiple instances of Manson's studying dianetics, which is 232 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: the thing on which Scientology was created or based and 233 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: born um and even Scientology itself and uh two a 234 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: squash Matt spheres here. Before we get to we want 235 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: to point out the Church of Scientology's perspective. They maintained 236 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: that Charles Manson was never a member of the organization, 237 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: and they have spent significant amounts of money attempting to 238 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: convince people that their stance is correct. It's a very 239 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: important point to them. That is. Yeah, they they've invested 240 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: in making sure that this is true. And there's you know, 241 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: there's there's logic here, because reading the Bible doesn't automatically 242 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: make one a Christian, right, Um, just like reading scientology 243 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: literature wouldn't automatically make one a scientologist. Correct and being 244 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: let's say, um, having a Bible doesn't mean you're a Christian. 245 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: And it's an interesting point that you bring up there, Matt, 246 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: because scientology literature and an e meter were both found 247 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: at the Spawn Ranch. Now, those I'm fairly certain at 248 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: the time that was not a cheap thing to come by. 249 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: An E meter. Yeah, I imagine I don't know the 250 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: going rates from e meters, but we all know what 251 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: those are, right, Yeah, a little tin can looking things 252 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: on wires connected to kind of a almost like a 253 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: radio tuner looking device, which I think essentially was almost 254 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: like a measured electromagnetic current like in your body essentially. 255 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: And you have to think you're talking about the Spawn Ranch, 256 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: that's where there are a lot of people coming and going, right, 257 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: and you've also got the ton of family members. Could 258 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: have been just another member of the family, could have 259 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: been somebody who showed up, maybe a scientologist, showed up 260 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: and he never left. Oh wow, so that's an allegation 261 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: of another Maybe no, I just mean he became part 262 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: of the family. Oh I see, Okay, okay, I was 263 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: thinking you were alleging a Manson murder. I don't know. 264 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: But also, you know, we have to remember that this 265 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: was this part of the world at this point in time, 266 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: was an eclectic mix of people. However, the prosecutor, the 267 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: author of Helter Skelter, does note these events and does 268 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: say that it's inarguably true that Manson and members of 269 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: the family did run into members of the Process Church, 270 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: members of the Church of Scientology. And it seems like 271 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: from what we could find that the primary objection the 272 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: Church of Scientology itself will have is when people say 273 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: Manson was a member, which wasn't. Reading a book doesn't 274 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: automatically make you a member of something. And they did 275 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: find that stuff at the ranch. It's true, It's true 276 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: they found it. There's another thing that I thought was 277 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: really interesting. I don't know, um how much you guys 278 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: have looked into this, but text Watson, Charles Quote Text 279 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: Watson wrote extensively after his incarceration conviction about the his 280 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: his life with Manson and about the situation has escalated 281 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: and how everything went down at the trial. And one 282 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: thing that he mentioned that launched a thousand chips. There's 283 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: a thousand chips of stories like some twisted Helen of 284 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: Troy was the idea that there was something strange about 285 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: the drugs they were doing, specifically something called orange sunshine, 286 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: which was the type of LSD or was it? Wait, 287 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: you're saying it could be something else, Bend Well, I'm 288 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: so glad you asked. It's no secret that the Manson 289 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: family used copious amounts of drugs, especially hallucinogens LSD, maybe mescaline, 290 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: stuff like that. It's a way to open yourself up 291 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: to the godhead, to the world and get rid of 292 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: that ego and which which seems weird, right right right? 293 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: That Uh, the path to enlightenment is to send the 294 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: self into oblivion. Yeah. But then for somebody who appears 295 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: to be a megalomaniac like Charles Manson who's leading his flock, 296 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: maybe the idea is to get your followers to do that, right, 297 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: so that you become the god hit right like you 298 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: are you? Wait you were me? I am you? But 299 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: someone's driving yes, So it's yeah, it is a contradictory, 300 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: strange thing. For decades, there were allegations that there was 301 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: something wrong with or something off about this particular brand 302 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: of LSD, and I don't, um, you know, I'm not 303 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: a chemist. I've never made LSD. I was under the 304 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: impression that LSD is LSD is LSD like a roses 305 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: roses rose. Maining I can think of is that maybe 306 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: it was combined with some other substance where it still 307 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: has you know, the qualities of LSD, but maybe it 308 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 1: has some other additive that um changes the perception of 309 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, or changes the way the LSD acts on 310 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: your on your mind, because I know you can combine 311 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: it with things like PCP or even other hallucinogens that 312 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: could change the the experience. So it could be like 313 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: a like a cocktail of drugs. I think so yeah. 314 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's like it's delivered on pieces 315 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: of blatter paper, so you could you could any any 316 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: drug that could be distilled into a liquid. It could 317 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: be like double dipped. I guess they're dipping these paper, 318 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: these sheets of LSD or sheets of water paper into 319 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: the concoction. They could dip it into one thing, and 320 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: then into another thing in theory. Wha, well, we have 321 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: some background on this. Oh yeah, late on me. Well, 322 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,239 Speaker 1: Orange Sunshine, This particular brand of LSD was manufactured and 323 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: distributed by a fun group known as the Brotherhood of 324 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: Eternal Love. You should do their ads, Matt. They operated 325 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: out of this um it was, I guess a beach 326 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: resort near l A, Los Angeles. Uh, sounds pretty swanky 327 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: to me. They they counted this gentleman named Ronald Stark 328 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: among the associates, the people they work with. And this 329 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: gentleman is believed to have manufactured fifty million doses of 330 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: l s D. Oh, and there's one other thing. What's 331 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: that he had known connections to the CIA. Wait a second, right, right, smuggling. 332 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: I think it was the there's a weird side doing here, 333 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: we have to Yeah, okay, so I fell deep into 334 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of LSD distribution gangs, which are a 335 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: huge thing. It's not just the Grateful Dead Revival concerts 336 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: and everything there is actually was referred to as the 337 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: hippie mafia, the Grateful Dead Family or g d F. 338 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: And then you can apparently see a lot of people 339 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: at Rainbow gatherings and in different counterculture events who were 340 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: claiming to be part of this family. The Brotherhood of 341 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: Eternal Love started out from what I could tell as 342 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: people who were still very much into the positive energy 343 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: of the Summer of Love, and they they thought, you know, uh, 344 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: it was almost a moral or ethical duty to distribute 345 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: dose as many people as possible. Right, So it wasn't 346 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: about the money at the beginning, but of course it 347 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: became about the money later. And it's strange because a 348 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: lot of these organizations still exist on the fringes, just 349 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: under the surface of American society, just slightly out of 350 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: the frame of the nightly news. But it's it's very real. 351 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: And the conspiracy theory is this that the c i 352 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: A purposefully manufactured a different kind of acid, maybe something 353 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: like nol is is referencing, or perhaps a different sort 354 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: of hallucinogen altogether that people thought was LSD when they 355 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: took it, and that the CIA knew this would have dangerous, delatorious, 356 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: negative behavioral effects. And we can't use that word conspiracy 357 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: theory with enough emphasis right here, because that's what it is. 358 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: But there are some things we can look into, Yeah, yeah, totally, 359 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: we can bust a couple of myths here, because we 360 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: were able to trace back the seed of how this began, 361 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: and then it leads us to some questions that that 362 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: we hope you will help us with. First four decades 363 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: people have argued that the orange sunshine stuff wasn't LSD 364 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: at all, but instead it was some other similar chemical, right, 365 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: with notably different and dangerous effects the lab created I 366 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: don't know, Frankensteining of hallucinogen. Yeah, which is the thing 367 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: that happens more and more today. You hear about things 368 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: like bath salts or all of these lab chemicals, which 369 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: some of them originate in legitimate institutions of learning, like um, 370 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: you know, as experiments that then get taken off site 371 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: and mass produced. Uh. And apparently these days a lot 372 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: of LSD is in fact some sort of analog that's 373 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: produced in a lab. So it's interesting. I didn't realize 374 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: that was possible, you know, back then. It's like a 375 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: chemical cousin, right, Yeah, I think it's similar, but it's 376 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: also like it can have very negative side effects, so 377 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: the effect is also different. The effect is different, but 378 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: it's similar enough that someone doing it that didn't know 379 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: better might be you know, convinced that they actually, you know, 380 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: got the genuine article. Oh well, I have this picture 381 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: of somebody spending like three days naked in a corner, 382 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: clawing their eyes, clawing at their eyes and going, why 383 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: do people like acid? It's um, it's true, though it's 384 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. There's a weird and continual kind of race 385 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: or one upmanship occurring between the legislative powers of various 386 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: world governments and the chemist. Because if you if you 387 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: pull that little Vanilla Ice move, remember when what was 388 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: that beat he ripped off? Do do do do do 389 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: do do do pre no. It doesn't go like that. 390 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: It goes like this, do do do do do do 391 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: do do do do do do do do? Pick up that? 392 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: So so, um, we're we're referencing this, uh, this hilarious 393 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: interview with Vanilla Ice on VH one at some point 394 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: where he was defending I don't know if it was 395 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: v H one, but he was defending um, the sample 396 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: that he used and said it was not under pressure 397 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: because as as Matt Noell point out, one beat was removed. 398 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: It appears that chemists have done that with synthetic drugs, 399 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: and if you change a drug, you can how have 400 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: similar effects, but it becomes a different thing. So technically speaking, 401 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: it's not illegal until someone makes it illegal or passes 402 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: a a law with a wider scope. Right, So while 403 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: people were taking this Orange Sunshine LST or whatever it 404 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: was that flooded the market, various terrible things happened, including 405 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: the Manson family activities and the concert the uh yeah 406 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: stones right right with the Hell's Angels as security I believe, 407 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: and things went south really quickly. And people who believe 408 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: there was something sinister about Orange Sunshine other than the 409 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: fact that was apparently massively powerful lsd uh, they they 410 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: think that Orange Sunshine was also responsible for the disasters 411 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,239 Speaker 1: that occurred at Altamont. And what what exactly happened? There 412 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: was rolling stones of Hell's Angels right, yeah, the Hell's 413 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: Angels stabbed somebody to death, like in the crowd. Yeah, 414 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: someone who was coming towards the US were bouncers from 415 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: more or less where they were like the security, and yeah, 416 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: I believe they literally stabbed someone to death. Yeah. And 417 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: then there also happened to be I think two or 418 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: three other people that died apart from that at the concert. 419 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: I want to point something out too, like we're talking 420 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: about the effects that you know, tainted psychedelic drugs could have, 421 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: or some of these copycat lab chemical psychedelic drus can have. 422 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: But also just you know, regular run of the mill 423 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: l s D affects different people quite differently depending on 424 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: their mental state. So if you're already mentally not well, uh, 425 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: and you you have an acid trip, you could potentially 426 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: that could push you in a in a violent direction, 427 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 1: even if it's it's there's nothing wrong with the you know, 428 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: chemical makeup of the drug at all. The only thing 429 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: I would say, no, well, is that I don't think 430 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: it's necessitated you are mentally unwell to have a negative 431 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: time taking a hallucinogen. You could have a bad setting, right, Yeah, 432 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: setting setting could be bad. You could just have a 433 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: really bad day. And I totally agree with you. I 434 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: guess all I'm getting at is if you're already kind 435 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: of on the edge, uh and and maybe preparing to 436 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: or capable of doing something horrendous or heinous like this 437 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: the Manson crimes, being on psychedelic drugs certainly wouldn't help. 438 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,239 Speaker 1: It's not like it's going to soften you and all 439 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: of a sudden make you cool. And chill like it's 440 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: gonna it might may well push you right over the edge. Absolutely, 441 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: and here's another another seed for this Orange Sunshine conspiracy. 442 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: So a lot of the members or many members of 443 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: the Brotherhood of Eternal Love and related organizations got busted, right, 444 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: and several defendants, including Nicholas sand and Tim Scully, were 445 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: on trial for possession distribution related charge. Is they argued 446 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: in a very vanilla ice way, no, your honor, we 447 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: did not manufacture LSD. Instead, we manufactured something called a 448 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: l D which changes into LSD maybe where when when consumed, 449 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: but doesn't. It's you know, Star Wars Jedi handwave. This 450 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: is not the drug you're looking for. Let us go. 451 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: And also, do you guys want some LSD? Wants a 452 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: l D that will become LSD after you ingest it. 453 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: So this was later disproven, and it was disproven in 454 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: a extremely conclusive way because the guys who were on 455 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: trial said no, we had just said that to dodge 456 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: the charges. We had just gone no, your honor, doo 457 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: doo doo doo doo. Oh man. I've also heard that 458 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: you can you can find stories of the c I 459 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: a UM like purposefully financing the mass production and distribution 460 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: of this drug LSD and uh, We've yet to really 461 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: find any concrete proof of these claims, but it has 462 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: to be said, it's inarguable that the CIA was using, 463 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: at least using LSD experimentally at this time. And there's 464 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: another question too, when when it goes back to when 465 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: it when it goes back to the the idea of 466 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: intent mass production distribution, what does that mean? It doesn't 467 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that if the four of us were CIA agents, 468 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: doesn't mean we were going out and flashing our CIA 469 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: credentials and saying, also, hello, fellow kids, here are here 470 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: are drugs. You know, inject one marijuana and have a 471 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: unit of fun. No, this kind of operation, were it 472 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: to occur, would almost certainly have occurred through proxies, right. Um. 473 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: The organizations typically want to keep their hands clean when 474 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: they're breaking the laws they are supposed to enforce. Yeah, 475 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 1: that is an interesting quandary though. If you are an 476 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: an intelligence agency and you want to do some experiments 477 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: with a large amount of some illegal substance, where do 478 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: you acquire that substance? And that question, I guess, like 479 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: you're saying, Ben, it just it depends on how far 480 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: you're willing to bend the rules and the laws right, right, exactly, 481 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: And that's why it's important for us to say we 482 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: have no, we don't have concrete proof of it. And 483 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: you'll you'll read a lot of things in the echo 484 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: chamber of the Internet that's say it's absolutely certain, but 485 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: it all goes back to primary sources, right. And another difficulty, 486 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: another complication in tracing these kind of stories is that 487 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: if something like this occurred, it almost certainly would not 488 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: have been you know, recorded in a clear paper trail. 489 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: It would have been like US American Freedom Airlines to 490 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: transport fifteen tons of avocados or something, you know. And additionally, 491 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: we know that Orange Sunshine has been claimed, like Noel 492 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: already mentioned, claimed to be a cocktail of sorts. Right, 493 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: you'll see people saying that it was actually mescaline. But 494 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: in both cases, at least as far as we can find, 495 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: it appears that later drug dealers just made something made 496 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: whatever they wanted, called it orange sunshine because they could 497 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: sell it more easily, right, and for a higher price. 498 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: So you know, we're not we're not big fans of 499 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: passing personal judgment on people. If you what you do 500 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: with your time as your own. But if someone tells 501 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: you they're selling you or sunshine, you know, just just think, 502 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: keep your wits about you. That it sounds so pleasant, 503 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: It really doesn't it, It really really does. Hey, do 504 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: you remember that question or that that statement we made 505 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: early on that we were going to need your help 506 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: with something. Yes, well it's time and now answer the question. 507 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: So we promised not to identify you. We're not going 508 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: to incriminate you. No. No, If you do choose to 509 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: respond to the following, do you believe there are different 510 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: types of LSD with different effects as we were discussing, 511 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: or is it simply a matter of purity, like how 512 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: intense of a dose or how much of a dose. 513 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: Do you think that some sort of LSD could actually 514 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: purposefully drive someone mad or you know, cause them to 515 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: act in a way that would be violent or would 516 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: that require some third party, some second substance when it 517 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: was to be used with l or maybe another just 518 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: another variable like a preexisting mental condition. Let us know, 519 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: send us an email a conspiracy at how stuff works 520 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Right, yeah, and while you're banging apples emails, 521 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: let's take a quick sponsor break and now we come 522 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: to one of the things that fascinated me the most. 523 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: And I don't know if I don't know if this 524 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: is a well known thing. Our next question is who 525 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: was Paul Crockett. I have to admit I did not 526 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: know much about Paul Crockett. I have seen his name 527 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: in passing before when researching this, but I didn't I 528 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: didn't know much until you sent an article out. But 529 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: so remember that odd new a g quote from the 530 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: beginning of part one of this episode. It comes from 531 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: this man named Paul Crockett. And wait, wait, I think 532 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: we need to revisit a great idea. Man, Everything that 533 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: we do is from some agreement that we have set up. 534 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: Everything that we have in this physical universe is something 535 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: we have laid out and agreed to. Most people never 536 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: set time limits to their agreements, so they are forces 537 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: that continue with no end. That quote comes from a 538 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: man named Paul Crockett. He is one of the great 539 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: unsung heroes of the Helter Skelter tragedy. You've definitely heard 540 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: of Manson and could probably name several of his followers. 541 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: But this is a very strange wrinkle to the story, 542 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: one that you won't find in the majority of reports 543 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: regarding the family. Paul Crockett, you see, was one of 544 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 1: the closest things Manson had to a neighbor out there 545 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: on the ranch, and he was working as a gold prospector. 546 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: But he was a lot of things. He was a 547 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: artist of sorts, philosopher, a philosopher, uh, a World War 548 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: Two veteran, and very similar to Manson. He was a 549 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: mystic student of the all arts, esoteric and occult. He 550 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: was the child of a preacher and a school teacher, 551 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: and to him, the search for gold and Death Valley 552 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: was an alchemical process. He was ruminating on the nature 553 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: of reality on the great work Capital G Capital W 554 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: and he saw reality as a web of agreements, both 555 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: acknowledged and unconscious. During eight months over the spring and 556 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: summer of nineteen sixty nine, Paul Crockett developed a rapport 557 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: with members of the Manson family who were dissatisfied or 558 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: felt they were on the fringes Um two. In particular, 559 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: Brooks Posted and Paul Watkins met him as they were 560 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: when they were sent out as a scouting party in 561 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: the of the land. Right hey, if they found all, 562 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: Paul Crockett just probably digging away or working on some dirt, 563 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: trying to get that gold. What a young gie and 564 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: Joseph Campbell archetype, right, the old wise man right, uh. 565 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: And he was about fifty at the time. He was 566 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: no stranger to programming techniques. He was familiar with scientology. 567 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: And he immediately saw that Poston and Watkins have been 568 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: stripped of their egos. They were unable to think independently. 569 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 1: They were bound in a very real way to the 570 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: will of Manson. They had been subsumed. And then he 571 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: he says that he discovered Manson had programmed all his 572 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 1: people to the extent that they're just like him. He's 573 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: put all kinds of things in their head. I didn't 574 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: believe it could be done, but he has done it, 575 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 1: and I've seen it working. So he said about de 576 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: programming these family members that would visit him. First, First 577 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: things first, this is so weird. It was apparent to 578 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: them that they thought Manson had supernatural powers. He told 579 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: them that he believed them because he liked man and 580 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: possessed extraordinary powers. But of course, and he said he 581 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: could and would use these to set up a psychic 582 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: barrier around his camp to prevent Manson from visiting without 583 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: agreement or permission. That is really cool. Can we go 584 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: into some of his purported superpowers that he talked about? 585 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: Please do? Um. So, one of the reasons that Paul 586 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: Crockett became what he became, it was because he had 587 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: some experiences that the church and the you know, the 588 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: teachings in school couldn't They couldn't explain fully to him. So, uh, 589 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: this one time when he was fifteen years old, he 590 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: said he was hurled from a speeding car and as 591 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: he was following I'm gonna read this quote, all sounds 592 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: ceased and time seemed to slow down. I reached my 593 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: hand out, but quickly withdrew it when I felt the 594 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: pain as it neared the ground. I held my arms 595 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: and close to my body, which seemed to be enclosed 596 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: in what I later came to call a force field. 597 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: When I find we landed in the gravel along the 598 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: side of the road, I wasn't even scratched. I just 599 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: stood up to brush myself off, but discovered I wasn't 600 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: even dusty. So he can make use of force fields. 601 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: That's one I mean, I think that's a superpower. Right. 602 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: Ben mentioned that our protagonist here was involved in World 603 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: War two and he was flying in an aircraft. He 604 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: was a navigator in a B twenty four, and apparently 605 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: his aircraft came under heavy artillery fire and some of 606 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: that shrapnel went through the aircraft. Essentially, he says, at 607 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: least according to him, where it should have impacted him, 608 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: but somehow it did not. And again it was one 609 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: of those things where time time slowed down, all the 610 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: sound went away, and he was okay. So he maybe 611 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: he truly believes that he has some kind of superpower 612 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: or connected to something larger than himself. Certainly, yeah, it is. 613 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: It is sincere rather than cynical. I would agree with that. 614 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: So he put these family members into a regiment of 615 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: taxing physical work. Do this, and do this with me, right, 616 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: And he started by saying, follow me on these physical actions, 617 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: because that's one thing they could still do, is follow people. 618 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: And then he re taught them how to think outside. 619 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: So the Manson family metaphysical rap is very much about um, 620 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: we're all one, we're all God. It doesn't matter if 621 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: you kill someone, because you're killing yourself, you're killing God. Uh, 622 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: And there is no moment other than now. So he 623 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: re taught them to think outside of this cognitive box 624 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: by using goal setting methods. Right, not what is it now? 625 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: I am you? You are me? But hey, what do 626 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: you want to do tomorrow? We should, you know, we 627 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 1: should have a measured set goal. And he he still 628 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: couldn't say exactly what Antson had done to the followers, 629 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: but he thought it was very real, and eventually in 630 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: an interview you can read how he tries to articulate it, 631 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: goes sort of through word salad and then just shrugs 632 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: and says, I can't explain it. It's all part of 633 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: the occult. Wow, that's really crazy. So I mean, did 634 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: Manson himself purport to be to have some sort of 635 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: Alistair Crowley esque communion with you know, the dark arts 636 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: or was it more psychological for him? And I it's 637 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: interesting to hear from this person's perspective saying this is 638 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: definitely what it was. But I don't really recall seeing 639 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: any quotes from Manson saying he said do something witchy, 640 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: make it witchy. But that was almost like as a manipulation, right, Yeah, 641 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: he never It's a great point because he never went 642 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: out and said, you know, like I am the dog Messiah, 643 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, slouching toward Bethlehem. But he was just going 644 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: to be one of the five, the five major beings 645 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: that existed him in the Beatles. Yeah, um, yeah, it's 646 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: it's weird because he never said that he did. The 647 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: powers or the realizations that he ascribed to himself were 648 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: much more messi onic in nature, because he gets kind 649 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 1: of lumped in with you know, Satanic Satanism and the 650 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: occult and you know that kind of stuff. And if 651 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: there's any kind of odd romanticization of him, it's usually 652 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: from uh, you know, stuff like Marilyn Manson or the 653 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: idea that he was some kind of Satanic superman that 654 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: could you know, control people with mind powers or you know, spells. 655 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: But that's really not what he was doing, or even 656 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: what he claimed to be doing. Yeah, it does appear 657 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: that he did have a grasp on people, but you're right, 658 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: it was not some kind of like accult thing. You know, 659 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: they weren't drawing penagrams and and uh, burning things in 660 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: a ritualistic fashion. He strikes me as a very cynical figure. 661 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: I think so too. Ideology seems very fluid for him, whatever, sir, 662 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: whatever it takes. Yeah, even see the interviews with him 663 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: in prison, and again he's and is there any kind 664 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: of like information out there? Has he been psychoanalyzed when 665 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: he was when he was incarcerated, Like is there a 666 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: diagnosis for his condition that we can point to? There are, 667 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: There are numerous diagnoses, and I found some stuff when 668 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: he was a kid where they said he's got slightly 669 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 1: above average intelligence, which also differentiates him from a serial killer. 670 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: R right. I don't know, You're totally on point about that. 671 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: From the top of the show. I'm just wondering, like, 672 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: did he because in prison you see him giving these interviews, 673 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: he seems like he's on drugs or something, but you know, 674 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,919 Speaker 1: he probably isn't. Yeah, I would. I would love to see, 675 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: you know, an official prison psychologists diagnosis. At the same time, 676 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: drugs are readily available in prison, so there's really no 677 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: reason to believe that he might not have been on 678 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: drugs during some of those interviews. But I don't know. 679 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,800 Speaker 1: It's just interesting because he just seems to me to 680 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: have been a person that wanted what he wanted for himself, 681 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: and he wanted to twist people's um minds and and 682 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,959 Speaker 1: make them do dance like his little puppets. He really, 683 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: that's that's the weird thing. MK Ultra tried to make 684 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: Manchurian candidates. Manson succeeded. Wow, and well, I mean he 685 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: didn't have the trigger word. I guess that's why they 686 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: were learning everything from him while he was incarcerated that 687 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: next time. That's a very disturbing theory. Yeah, I would 688 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: love to see diagnosis, you know, because there had to 689 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: be something. Everyone who encountered the guy talked about this 690 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 1: palpable aura that he had about him, even the prosecutor 691 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: whal Helter Skelter. So Crockett and Manson did meet and interact. 692 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: They were neighbors, and Crockett would Crockett would coach the 693 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: people under his protection about how to how to deal 694 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: with Manson. And this is why the agreement quotation from 695 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: earlier is very important, because he would caution them not 696 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: to agree to anything. Don't accept anything, sort of like 697 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: the old folklore rules about what happens if you wake 698 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 1: up in uh fairyland, right, don't accept eat, don't accept 699 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: food or drink, wake any deals or agreements. It's like 700 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: that San Pan's labyrinth where when she eats the grape 701 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,959 Speaker 1: and things happen. Is that the hand died monster. Yeah, 702 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: the Paleman, that's what they call him, which is great. 703 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: I still want to know that guy's backstory. You know, 704 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,439 Speaker 1: it was pretty obvious. There was a stack of kids 705 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: shoes and there's all these like pictograms all over the 706 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: place where he's like clearly an eater of children. But 707 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: to what end though, to what end? What the dickens 708 00:46:54,280 --> 00:47:01,320 Speaker 1: pale man? Yeah, the family followers would watch and Manson 709 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: in there's there's this parable like quality to it because 710 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: Manson would send, uh, let's say, a female member of 711 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: the family that to to bring back one of the 712 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: people following Crockett into the fold if they knew they 713 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: had a previously existing sexual or romantic relationship, and he 714 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:29,760 Speaker 1: and Crockett Manson Crockett would engage in these hour long, abstract, 715 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: esoteric debates as sort of a wizard's duel in his 716 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: mental chess game, and it would be about the nature power, agreement, 717 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: consciousness and ego and I want to I want to read, um, 718 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: I want to read just one part here from my 719 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: life with Charles Manson. Often Charlie would engage Crockett in 720 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: verbal exchanges which sometimes lasted for hours, but Crockett played 721 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 1: it perfect. He did not fight with Charlie nor openly 722 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: disagree in a way that might provoke a ger. He 723 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: merely expressed opinions, which left Charlie utterly flabbergasted. Crockett later 724 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: confessed that he and Charlie shared many of the same 725 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: opinions about the world, but that Charlie had a hole 726 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 1: in his humanity. And then you'll see these different exchanges 727 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 1: where Charles Manson goes, well, look, i'm you, you're me, 728 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 1: and you know it's all one baby dig it, and 729 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: Crockett would just sit there and wait a second and 730 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: then say, well, I admit that we are similar in 731 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,320 Speaker 1: that we I say, I agree that we are similar 732 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: in that we are entities experiencing similar stimulus stimuli, but 733 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: we have experienced different stimuli, which means I am not 734 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,880 Speaker 1: you and you are not me. And he would just 735 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: say so. He kept his calm, and apparently this not 736 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: only irritated the ever loving Christ out of Charles Manson, 737 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: but it also convinced Manson that Crockett had powers. So 738 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: Manson began to believe that Crockett had some sort of 739 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: wisdom that he could teach Charles Manson, Mason certainly had 740 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,800 Speaker 1: some paranoia paranoid qualities to him, for sure, and we 741 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: may never know the full details of these interactions, but 742 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 1: one thing is for sure. Paul Crockett was like a 743 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,800 Speaker 1: Jedi fighting of the Sith, using the same techniques, the 744 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: same source techniques that Manson used, and he managed to 745 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 1: save several people from the Manson family and perhaps to 746 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: prevent the spread of further horrific crimes. But you know, 747 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: going to that point about Manson's paranoia which was skyrocketing 748 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: at this stage in the game or the stage and 749 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: the story, we also have to wonder what stopped Charles 750 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,959 Speaker 1: Manson from just killing Paul Crockett where they kill everyone else, 751 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: and it also or what stopped him from making his 752 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: followers do it. And then I still feel like there's 753 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: something to the connection there. It just seems like a 754 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: strange and massive coincidence for of all people in this 755 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: very isolated part of the world, for this one guy 756 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: to be there at exactly that time. It's a father figure, man, 757 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. It's a father figure thing. 758 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: I think so, just from what we know about the 759 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: background of Charles Manson and having someone intelligent that seems 760 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,239 Speaker 1: like he might be able to teach you something, even 761 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: though you feel like you know you're the most brilliant 762 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: mind in your general surroundings. I bet that's what it was. 763 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:37,800 Speaker 1: That's insane, and so we'd love more information about Paul 764 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,760 Speaker 1: Crockett if you happen to know it. He has passed away. 765 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 1: He did for a time have a sort of New 766 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: Age philosophical website, uh which you could find more information 767 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: about him and his beliefs. But for now, this concludes 768 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: our story. Charles Manson and I don't know what you 769 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,200 Speaker 1: guys think, but it seems strange to end with conclusions. 770 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,439 Speaker 1: I feel like maybe we could end with questions. Okay, yeah, 771 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,839 Speaker 1: why don't we um? Why don't we just ask them? 772 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,760 Speaker 1: Do you think there's any sand to the arguments about 773 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: the occult and hypnotic practices that we've been discussing in 774 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: these two episodes? The do you think there is a 775 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: way to breach the veil somehow and cause someone to 776 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 1: either believe or do something that they wouldn't have done 777 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: without your interaction? I don't know, what do you think? 778 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: Ben and I were hanging out the other night and 779 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: we were talking about Darren Brown and uh, these skills 780 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: possessed by um, these folks that call themselves mentalists, where 781 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 1: they can implant suggestion into people's minds and kind of 782 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: cause them to act in a certain way. And with 783 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: Darren Brown, it's usually in the service of a lovely 784 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: magic trick, you know, kind of thing. But yeah, cameras 785 00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 1: and cameras well. Okay, just but to the time point being, 786 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: these skills exist, and I think Charles Manson was probably 787 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: practicing some of those more than any kind of real 788 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,399 Speaker 1: uh accult manipulation. He was just one of the most 789 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,880 Speaker 1: effective users of those techniques ever. He had good charisma. 790 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,799 Speaker 1: Come to the dog side. What do y'all think? Let 791 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,000 Speaker 1: us know about that one. And we asked this earlier, 792 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,600 Speaker 1: but we'll just hit it again. Do you think it's 793 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: possible that something other than ordinary LSD was at play? Um? 794 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 1: And you know, to piggyback on the previous question, we asked, 795 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: do you think there are different types of LSD that 796 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,080 Speaker 1: have different effects and some of them could be more 797 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: nefarious than others? And finally, do you think there are 798 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,080 Speaker 1: dangerous cults like this that are still active in the 799 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,359 Speaker 1: US today? Let us know let us know. I'm going 800 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,400 Speaker 1: with almost certainly on that third question, and uh oh, 801 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,359 Speaker 1: I hope we can learn about them before some sort 802 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: of disaster card. You can reach out to us on 803 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,400 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter, where we are Conspiracy Stuff. Instagram we 804 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: are Conspiracy Stuff Show. And if you don't want to 805 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,400 Speaker 1: do any of that stuff, you can also doute the 806 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,759 Speaker 1: old fashioned way. How do we do that? Guys? Write 807 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,080 Speaker 1: us an email. We are conspiracy at how stuff works 808 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: dot com