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Speaker 1: Also media, welcome back to Behind the Bastards. I'm doing

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Speaker 1: my Halloween boys because this will probably come out pretty

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Speaker 1: close to Halloween. Miles. And if you be poisoned, if

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Speaker 1: you have.

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Speaker 2: The poisoned candy, Have ever poisoned candy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, anyone's candy. If you ever poisoned a child's candy, Miles.

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Speaker 3: No, I used to poison mine to get out of school.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll leave that and maybe Miles. Are you ready

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Speaker 1: to get back into part two here? Miles Gray Host,

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Speaker 1: I'm so ready.

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Speaker 2: I'm so ready because, like I said, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I feel like man's are going to turn it around.

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Speaker 1: Yes, some men are going to fluence themselves into a

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Speaker 1: healthier place.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I hated that we've got Look, we've

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Speaker 2: got man fluenza over here.

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Speaker 1: I hated that also concerned about men, including both of you.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to start this episode by returning to

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Speaker 1: the distant past and the next era of man masculinity

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Speaker 1: gurus to come around after the stock market collapsed. One

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Speaker 1: of the first guys through that particular door was a

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Speaker 1: man that you probably heard his name, Charles Atlas. When

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty started, Reading started running a series of ads

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Speaker 1: in Popular Mechanics, bragging, let me prove in seven days

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Speaker 1: that I can make you a new man now. Atlas

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Speaker 1: was obviously not the first guy to promise insecure men

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Speaker 1: that he could make them huge, and that in doing

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Speaker 1: so he would solve every problem in their lives, but

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Speaker 1: he was probably the most muscular of the first generation

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Speaker 1: of these guys. As the Depression faded and the war

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Speaker 1: years came, Atlas was also the first to realize that

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Speaker 1: magazines meant for mature adults, like Popular Mechanics, weren't the

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Speaker 1: best place to target insecure young men. To do that,

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Speaker 1: you had to reach them in comic books. Charles placed

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Speaker 1: ads in every comic under the sun. Because this was

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Speaker 1: a hungrier era in general, he didn't tend to focus

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Speaker 1: on like trying to get men, you know, to lose

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Speaker 1: weight or whatever. That really wasn't a thing, right, trying

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Speaker 1: to convince them that like they're fat and out of shape,

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't really work in this era because everyone's starving.

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Speaker 1: So instead he mocked them for being too skinny. This

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Speaker 1: tactic culminated in his famous ninety seven pound weekling ads.

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Speaker 1: Here's an early example, right, and to think they called

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Speaker 1: me skinny, give me fifteen minutes a day and I'll

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Speaker 1: give you a new body. And then we see a

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Speaker 1: very a very oily Italian man, right, I mean, just

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Speaker 1: just as shiny as the days longer paint undise painted

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Speaker 1: on him. There's a little box underneath him, right above

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Speaker 1: his knees that says Charles Atlas, holder of the title

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Speaker 1: the world's most perfectly developed man. But you're wondering where

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Speaker 1: does that titles? Car Internet who decided that we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about it?

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Speaker 2: Did he did?

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Speaker 1: Now? What really made Charles stand out in a crowded

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Speaker 1: field of fitness Gurdus was his laser focus on fucking

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Speaker 1: with the self confidence of boys and young men reading

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Speaker 1: his age. Right. He was the guy who was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm just going to use body dysmorphia to make

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Speaker 1: all of my mone you know, to make And he

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Speaker 1: really did it, probably the first guy I saw doing

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Speaker 1: it in a really organized way that I've found that's

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Speaker 1: like really unhealthy, in a very modern way where he

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Speaker 1: just wants you to feel bad about your body.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: His most popular ninety seven pound weekly ads were comics themselves,

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Speaker 1: so he is really targeting kids to make them hate

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Speaker 1: their bodies. And the premise of like most of these,

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Speaker 1: was that a bully at the beach mocks our protagonist

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Speaker 1: for being scrawny. In the comic I have here, he's saying, hey, skinny,

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Speaker 1: your ribs are showing. Don't let him hit you, Joe,

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Speaker 1: watch what you say full off, shut up your bag

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Speaker 1: of bones. And then the muscular guy hits our hero,

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Speaker 1: who takes Charles Atlas's getting jacked, course, becomes swollen, and

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Speaker 1: then goes back to the beach to beat the shit

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Speaker 1: out of this guy and presumably take back his woman.

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Speaker 3: Right right, that's how it works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. After he beats up the beach bully, his girlfriend says, oh, Joe,

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Speaker 1: you are a real he man after all.

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Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, thank you for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. This comic does not pass the Bechdel test.

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Speaker 1: I not enjoy that. Yeah, no, horrible stuff. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: not going to surprise you to learn that Charles Atlas

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Speaker 1: was not his real names. That's that's not anyone's real name.

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Speaker 1: What is funny is that his real name also sounds fake.

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Speaker 1: He was born Angelo Siciliano, which sounds like what JK.

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Speaker 1: Rowling would have named an Italian wizard. It's not a

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Speaker 1: real person's name.

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Speaker 2: Angelo Sicilians, yes.

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Speaker 1: Italian wizard. Now, before he was a muscle salesman, he

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Speaker 1: was a poor kid in Brooklyn who couldn't afford a

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Speaker 1: YMCA membership and tried several fad workouts of the day

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Speaker 1: without results. Siciliano thus fell for the con before he

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Speaker 1: got in on it himself, treating Bernarmic Fadden's Physical Culture

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Speaker 1: magazine as the Bible and hassling strong in at weightlifting

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Speaker 1: competitions to learn their secrets. He would later claim that

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Speaker 1: the infamous ninety seven pound weekling story had its origins

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Speaker 1: in his real life, that that was a thing that

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Speaker 1: actually happened to him as a kid, that he had

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Speaker 1: sand kicked in his face by a bully. And then

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Speaker 1: my favorite part of this is because there were no

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Speaker 1: Charles Atlas classes to take when he was bullied as

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Speaker 1: a kid, he went to the zoo where he studied

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Speaker 1: found out the secrets of muscle growth by watching a

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Speaker 1: lion because his old program was like calistenics base. He's like, well,

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Speaker 1: lions have muscles and they don't lift weights, so it

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Speaker 1: must be a calisthenics problem.

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Speaker 2: Holy shit. Also that logic, he just like ran down

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Speaker 2: like musclemen from the circus to.

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Speaker 1: He would go to like muscle shows and then would

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Speaker 1: like annoy them afterwards, being like, hey, man, had you

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Speaker 1: get so big? Howd you get so huge? Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, eat nothing but beef steak and picked up

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Speaker 1: heavy things.

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Speaker 2: Bro.

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Speaker 1: It was like the nineteen teens just manomach, just shoveling

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Speaker 1: it in their mouths aacerous now whatever his real secret,

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Speaker 1: Sciliano did figure out how to get swollen, and he

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Speaker 1: made his living as a circus strongman until in nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty two he met a homeopathic doctor who'd written for

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Speaker 1: Physical Culture and hired him to author a fitness course

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Speaker 1: he could sell in magazines. He changed his name to

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Speaker 1: Charles Atlas, and the rest was history. Now I looked

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Speaker 1: into the case of like who declared him the world's

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Speaker 1: most perfectly developed man, and Wikipedia says there's no evidence

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Speaker 1: that he ever won this. This is just a thing

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Speaker 1: he declared himself. But I found another source that I

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Speaker 1: trust implicitly, barbend dot com, which offers a free arm

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Speaker 1: training ebook to readers that claims with citations that he

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Speaker 1: did in fact win a most Handsome Man contest held

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Speaker 1: by Bernard McFadden and a subsequent America's Most Perfectly Developed

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Speaker 1: Man contest held also by Bernard McFadden. So you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's kind of legit. Although he was sort of

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Speaker 1: working for the guy right now. Atlas was absolutely a grifter,

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Speaker 1: but it came far enough back that he was at

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Speaker 1: least fun. Right in his day, it was enough to

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Speaker 1: be huge and make kids feel bad about their bodies. Today,

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Speaker 1: his descendants, guys like Andrew Taate have to do that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they also have to sell like supplements

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Speaker 1: and shit, right, they have to get into all this

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Speaker 1: culture warshit.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's not just you can't just pose naked and offer

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Speaker 1: health and dieting trips tricks anymore, right, Right, you have

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Speaker 1: to have a place in the culture wars. Right. You

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Speaker 1: have to find a way to like make people think

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Speaker 1: that by listening to your shit, they're part of like

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Speaker 1: a great and vicious struggle. Right. Otherwise there's just nothing,

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Speaker 1: like you kind of get lost by the wayside without that.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know why. I think some of this

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Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that in Charles Atlas's day,

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Speaker 1: they didn't really know how people got big, right, They

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Speaker 1: generally knew that you had to lift heavy things. But

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of lot less was known about,

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Speaker 1: like sports nutrition and the like. A lot less was

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Speaker 1: known about how to work out in order to maximize

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Speaker 1: muscle growth, and steroids weren't really a thing. Right now

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Speaker 1: we have, thank god steroids.

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Speaker 3: Thanks right, the anabs came online.

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Speaker 1: It's easier. People can get swollen pretty easily if they

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Speaker 1: have time and money. Now it is right, and the

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Speaker 1: acne is free, and the back acne is free, right,

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Speaker 1: as is the hgh gut. You too can look like

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Speaker 1: Joe Roby.

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Speaker 2: I like to call it organ in large man, all right,

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Speaker 2: don't call it that's what my organs are becoming oversized.

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Speaker 1: He has the massive guts of a healthy man. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now I want to uh yeah. So it's like, think

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Speaker 1: about that guy who compared himself to the rock before

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Speaker 1: getting his legs butchered. Right, Just the fact that you're

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Speaker 1: shredded isn't going like. People aren't confident at all as

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Speaker 1: a result of that anymore. It doesn't bring you the

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Speaker 1: same it used to be. If you were huge, maybe

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Speaker 1: that was enough to feel like a big man. Nowadays

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Speaker 1: it just really makes you feel like one of the herds.

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Speaker 1: So these guys who you know, are essentially doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing Atlas was. They have to sell themselves as

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Speaker 1: like culture war icons too, right, because part of in

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Speaker 1: part because these men are struggling for something that gives

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Speaker 1: them meaning, right, and and war is a force that

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Speaker 1: gives us meaning. So they want some sort of like

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Speaker 1: thing to fight for and some sort of leader to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, take the raids, right, right. And a good

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Speaker 1: example of like how some guys do this is the

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Speaker 1: current panic among right wing masculinity influencer types over seed oils. Now.

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Speaker 1: One of the major sources of the seed oil panic,

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Speaker 1: and the idea is that seed oils are toxic and

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Speaker 1: they're stopping you from like being muscular. They're killing you.

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Speaker 1: They're basically killing you as a man. They're rendering you infertile,

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Speaker 1: you know. And it's a conspiracy, right, that's kind of

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Speaker 1: the insinuation that the spread of seed oils in cooking

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Speaker 1: is part of a conspiracy to destroy men. You know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's easier to do that than really zoom out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it's a seed oils man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, don't like it is all the seed oils

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Speaker 1: that safflower oil is really fucking you up.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, safflower, I'll pray for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pray for you. It's got to be olive oil, right,

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Speaker 1: where's all of oil? Is seed oil? I don't think so,

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Speaker 1: I hope not.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it comes from the olives themselves. Whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, what I'm gonna do.

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Speaker 1: All I know is my brother says that there's only

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Speaker 1: to eat avocado oil. And he's a doctor. He says,

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Speaker 1: to eat a cotton Oh there you go.

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Speaker 2: I hear that too, has a high smoke point, higher

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Speaker 2: smoke point than olive oils. If you high temperature cooking.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I can second that.

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Speaker 1: See, I'm as as a masculinity influencer myself, Myles, I

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Speaker 1: cook only with diesel fuel, you know, yeah, right right,

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Speaker 1: if it's good for me. Yeah, oh well yeah to

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Speaker 1: W three. Well, I just put that on some bread,

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Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of salt in there. Not

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Speaker 1: too much. You don't want to that's too much sodium.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, vegas dip my bread in ten W thirty. So.

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Speaker 1: One of the big names in the seed oils community

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Speaker 1: is Carnivore Orrelius, a Twitter account with more than three

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand followers that it's he's done a few things.

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Speaker 1: He was all these guys my brain. Yeah, take pictures

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Speaker 1: of old like buildings from the classical era and be like,

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Speaker 1: why can't we make these anymore?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean we could, bro we just have other ways

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Speaker 1: of making houses than having men hugh granite for a

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Speaker 1: thousand years. I don't know. We have better materials if

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Speaker 1: you like, if you ever had to walk around on

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Speaker 1: a floor made out of fucking marble when it's raining, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have other ways of building things.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you do that, now you're gonna break your

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Speaker 2: little extendo. I'm keep balancing.

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Speaker 1: So he is one of the big guys who is

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Speaker 1: pushing this idea that seed oils are responsible for all

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Speaker 1: of the woes of modern life. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: I need to waste time breaking down why he's wrong.

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Speaker 1: But I will show you a post of his from

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Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty three, which I find interesting as

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Speaker 1: a mirror to the Charles Atlas ads that we started

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Speaker 1: this episode with. Before seed oils were invented, everybody was

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Speaker 1: hot and healthy, less than ten percent of people were

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Speaker 1: obedes forty percent today, and CBD was non existent. But

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Speaker 1: in the two last hundred years, seed oil consumption has

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Speaker 1: increased twenty times, and so is disease. Here a study

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Speaker 1: show him why I don't eat them. And then his

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Speaker 1: evidence is this picture of Atlantic Beach in nineteen oh eight, Like,

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Speaker 1: look at that, at all these and like, what I

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Speaker 1: find interesting here is that if you look at the

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Speaker 1: men in this, they're like, for one thing, a lot

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Speaker 1: shorter than men today tend to be, and also pretty

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Speaker 1: skinny as a general rule. And if this same picture

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Speaker 1: in nineteen oh eight would have been used by Charles

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Speaker 1: Atlas as like evidence of how scrawny the average min

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Speaker 1: is and why they need his workout program, they're all wets.

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Speaker 1: Look at these wins. They're going to get sand kicked

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Speaker 1: in their face. Look at these.

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Speaker 3: Bags of bone embarrassments there.

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Speaker 1: Like Chuck Atlas, he just sees targets there, sand kicking

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Speaker 1: targets like that boy on the left right there with

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Speaker 1: the you could see him in the left side, bottom

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Speaker 1: side of the picture, and the uh, the wife beater

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Speaker 1: black shirt. Like that guy's getting sand kicked right in

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Speaker 1: his face.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: Is the guy all them wife beaters anymore? Is that

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Speaker 1: a fence in these days?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think you're supposed to call them tank tops

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Speaker 2: tops weak wow tanks.

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Speaker 1: So the military industrial complex is fine, Miles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I don't know, man, Like I don't

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Speaker 2: make the rules. Man, I don't make it. I'm just

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Speaker 2: here to sell seed oils. Man.

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Speaker 1: I did. Like when I was a kid, that was

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Speaker 1: the only thing people ever called those shirts. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: no adult was ever able to explain to me, Like,

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Speaker 1: why are they called wife beating?

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Speaker 2: No, the other one you heard was it was a

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Speaker 2: guinea tea?

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Speaker 1: Are the guinea t Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Those are like the alternatives, and like there were no

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Speaker 2: good options, like to the point now I remember needing

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Speaker 2: one and I said it off handily, and my partner,

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Speaker 2: her majesty, is like, Yo, that's that's that's not can't

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Speaker 2: call them that, And I'm like, no, that out loud.

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Speaker 2: Yeah I don't want to say that in a store.

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Speaker 1: In the small town I grew up. But yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were definitely always called wife beaters, and it was because

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Speaker 1: it was like a shirt people in trailer parks would

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Speaker 1: often wear. And I think probably my mom didn't tell

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Speaker 1: me why it got that name because all of my

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Speaker 1: friends were kids in trailer parks. Did she want to

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Speaker 1: talk shit about their dads. But it was like I

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Speaker 1: didn't really evaluate that until just now that like, oh yes,

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Speaker 1: it is kind of messed up to call a T

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Speaker 1: shirt that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well look, these are strange times we were dealing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all growing every every minute. Anyway. It also

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Speaker 1: we don't have enough black tank tops in our society.

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Speaker 1: It's not a bad look. Not a bad look on

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Speaker 1: those kids. I'm sure they're dead now, but they look nice.

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Speaker 3: And hey, you never know photo eight teenagers.

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Speaker 1: They're dead as hell.

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Speaker 2: They're making some.

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Speaker 1: Worms happy though, Yeah, yeah, probably, or at least we're

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Speaker 1: like seventy years ago. Yeah yeah, let's they cremated, which

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Speaker 1: is a bad way, but well we'll see, we'll see.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, this is I just found it funny that

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Speaker 1: like the same the same picture that is being like

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Speaker 1: portrayed as this is like how much ah men used

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Speaker 1: to be real men back when all of those men

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Speaker 1: were alive, they were being told you're far too skinny.

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Speaker 3: But it's the same way even with like who's raising

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Speaker 3: our kids?

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Speaker 2: Right right? The men should be there with the kids.

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Speaker 2: And now it's like you hear people be.

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Speaker 1: Like women they're not raising the kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would never hire a man to babies sit.

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Speaker 2: That's just wrong. And you're like, wow, whatever, it's a

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Speaker 2: funhouse mirror. Depending on where your life's at and where yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: A certain chunk of the population are just always going

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Speaker 1: to be assholes who need to find a reason why

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Speaker 1: whatever other people are fine with isn't okay and is

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Speaker 1: ruining their lives because usually they want to make money

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Speaker 1: off of it, right, you know, like that's just the

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Speaker 1: reality of human beings, and the sooner you make peace

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Speaker 1: with it, the sooner you can just daydream about those

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Speaker 1: people getting hit by buses. So yeah, So anyway, I

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Speaker 1: want to read a quote about the fake seed oil

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Speaker 1: crisis by Rolling Stones EJ. Dixon, just to kind of

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Speaker 1: give you some context on this fun little piece of

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Speaker 1: our culture at the present moment. Carnivora Realis is an

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Speaker 1: account dedicated to restoring our ancestral meat loving lifestyle. Its

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Speaker 1: website also sells a branded bag of beef liver crisps

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Speaker 1: for eighty nine ninety nine my Other proponents of the

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Speaker 1: carnivore diet, like Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate, Carnivor Orrelius

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Speaker 1: frequently advocates for traditional family values, tweeting about how feminism

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Speaker 1: is a scam or idyllic photos of young, beautiful blonde

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Speaker 1: moms with babies with the caption Ladies, there's nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: with you if you want this over becoming a partner

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Speaker 1: at a law firm. It is also devoided much space

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Speaker 1: to pushing the evils of seed oils. My favorite thing

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Speaker 1: about this is so he has to claim. He's claimed

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Speaker 1: that seed oils are the most destructive force in the

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Speaker 1: world today and cutting them out of the diet will

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Speaker 1: hit your diet, will change your health. And some of

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Speaker 1: his evidence for that is canola oil is literally made

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Speaker 1: from seeds of the rape plant, named after what it

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Speaker 1: will do to your health. And Okay, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't need to say anything here, but I will.

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Speaker 1: Which is that rape seed which is the unfortunate name

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Speaker 1: of the plant that canoila was misspelled whenever I had

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Speaker 1: seen No. No, it is an unfortunate name, but it

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with rape. The thing right, It

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Speaker 1: comes from the Latin word rape them for turnip because

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Speaker 1: it's like related to the turnip planted.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank god, just unrelated. I thought, just some sick fuck?

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Speaker 2: Was this like you know what we're gonna name it.

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Speaker 1: Could we have called it rap seed probably probably would

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Speaker 1: have been a better idea. But you know, the basement

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Speaker 1: scientists never listen to what I think things should be named.

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Speaker 2: And I keep telling, I keep telling them, and I

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Speaker 2: keep telling the you know, the local police say it's

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Speaker 2: a misunderstanding. It's a misunderstanding. He's got good ideas. Listen to.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of calling the local police, don't do that. Listen

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Speaker 1: to these ads, and we're back. So we are again.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to spend a lot of time fact

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Speaker 1: checking Carnivore Aurelius his Twitter count in part because his

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Speaker 1: fans won't listen to this show.

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Speaker 2: They can read Yeah, I mean I know about it,

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Speaker 2: but like maybe maybe offline, you can just tell me

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Speaker 2: why I shouldn't be tripping about it because I threw

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Speaker 2: out all my.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, you should be very scared of seeing absolutely,

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Speaker 1: But it's okay. I have a solution for you. You know

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Speaker 1: I have I have pure chicken liver that did not

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Speaker 1: come from KFC. It just for three hundred dollars a pound.

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Speaker 1: I will send it to you via the mail. Do

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Speaker 1: they have that kids? They used to have it at KFC,

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Speaker 1: did they not anymore? I haven't got a KFC in

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Speaker 1: a very long time. They had chicken liver and chicken

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Speaker 1: livers and it was pretty good.

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Speaker 4: It was not.

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Speaker 1: I like liver. I'm like the liver king, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you some more chev.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It's because of all the steroids.

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Speaker 1: So going back to our journey through time, you might

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Speaker 1: expect the post war era, right the you know, late

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Speaker 1: forties through the fifties, to have been a time where

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Speaker 1: like the masculinity in crisis thing wouldn't have found much purchase. Right.

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Speaker 1: If any period of time men were actually confident in themselves,

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Speaker 1: it must have been the post war years, right. These

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Speaker 1: guys went and they kicked some Nazi ass and they

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Speaker 1: came back and they bought houses for thirteen dollars, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: there was never a better time to feel like a

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Speaker 1: man than this, as long as.

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Speaker 2: You were white, right, Yeah, PTSD as a concept didn't

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Speaker 2: really exist.

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Speaker 4: You're just drinking your way through that, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that guy that poor fucker's show shocked. Yeah, scared of war? Ah,

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Speaker 4: why do I scream at my kids every night? Just

401
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Speaker 4: go back home and hit your children like the rest

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Speaker 4: of us. Come on now.

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Speaker 1: So this was, however, a time of crisis for masculinity

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Speaker 1: like literally every other period of modern American history has been,

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Speaker 1: and specifically, it was a time in which American intellectuals

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Speaker 1: first really started to write in a modern sense about

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Speaker 1: the crisis of American masculinity. Now, the fact that this happens,

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00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: it happen to make sense when you put a few

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Speaker 1: more things together. The nineteen fifties is the era in

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Speaker 1: which hyper violent men's magazines first become really popular. We've

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Speaker 1: had some episodes with Margaret Kiljoy where we read through

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Speaker 1: a few of those, but these are like you see

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Speaker 1: him made fun of on the inn today magazines where

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Speaker 1: like the cover will be a guy fighting a bunch

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Speaker 1: of crabs, right, or like wrestling affair or something, while

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Speaker 1: a half naked woman like looks on right. And if

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Speaker 1: you read interviews with like writers of that era, some

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Speaker 1: of them are pretty open about the fact that they

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Speaker 1: saw their audience as primarily frustrated men who'd been in

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Speaker 1: the military during the war years but never seen combat,

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Speaker 1: and so they just kind of permanently felt like they'd

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Speaker 1: missed out right this thing that would have made me

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Speaker 1: into a man and made me confident. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: it was kind of stolen from me.

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Speaker 2: Right right, right? Yeah, isn't that how what Jarhead was about?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, I guess so, because

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00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 1: like you know, Desert Storm wasn't really a war. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm mis remembering.

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Speaker 2: I felt like that was like a big part of

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Speaker 2: it a long time. I needed to see the pink

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Speaker 2: misted man and it was enough. Yeah yeah, yeah, kind

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Speaker 2: of thing anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that you only get that experience that of guys

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Speaker 1: who didn't see the pink miss But I guess that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah. So with Kowski points out that the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties was not so much a real crisis of

437
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: manhood because again, the average white man in America was

438
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,399
Speaker 1: doing pretty well in that decade. But instead it was

439
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: a crisis, and all of these articles about crises and

440
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 1: masculinity were part of the result of a crisis and

441
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 1: self confidence among the kind of men who wrote about

442
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 1: culture for a living, right, these were guys who overwhelmingly

443
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: hadn't fought right. These are guys who felt insecure about

444
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 1: their position as cultural elites. And this is when you

445
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: started to also see analysis of like films and TV

446
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: shows and what they had to say about masculinity. Right.

447
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 1: One of the shows that really scared these kind of

448
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: like men writing these articles at the time was The

449
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: Adventures of Ozzy and Harriet, which poked fun at male

450
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 1: authority figures and had competent, witty female characters. And there

451
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 1: was a certain kind of public intellectual who was terrified

452
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 1: by this. And I'm going to read a quote again

453
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: from Witkowski's paper and a fascinating Look magazine article entitled

454
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 1: the American Male, Why do Women Dominate Him? Author J.

455
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 1: Robert Moskin opined with harm, it is certain that as

456
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: women grow ever more numerous and more dominant, we will

457
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: have to invent new meanings and myths for maleness in America, because,

458
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,479
Speaker 1: as psychiatrist doctor Irene J. Rosalind warns, we are drifting

459
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: toward a social structure made up of he women and

460
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 1: she men. Moskin believed men coped with this situation, at

461
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,959
Speaker 1: least in part through a set of gendered consumption activities.

462
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 1: They drank regularly and commuter Kane Barkars, watched televised baseball

463
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: at home, played golf on weekends, and went on all

464
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: male fishing trips at work. Their expense accounts paid for

465
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: meals at fancy restaurants and when traveling for spacious suites

466
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: and lavish entertaining. Moskin's article clearly focused on the lives

467
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: of middle class men like himself. He was senior editor

468
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: at Look magazine at the time. And that is such

469
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 1: a part of all of these, all of these male

470
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: panic articles. Is that, like, it's just the thing that

471
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: you the guy who was born into wealth and privilege

472
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 1: and is like the head editor at Esquire. It's just

473
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: what you are scared of, right, Yeah, yeah, because you

474
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: know that you don't have a real job, right.

475
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,479
Speaker 2: What do you do? It's like I rank bow ties

476
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: and then talked to guys who were just served in

477
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: a combat zone.

478
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I tried to scare men who lived through the

479
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: SS attacking them about Ozzie and Harriet, Yeah, survivors of

480
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: Best Stone. I tried to get to freak out about

481
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: girls and movies, awesome stuff. Man.

482
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: I know how to speak their language.

483
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: Man, It's part of why this is so funny. Again,

484
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: my grandpa did all of this stuff, went overseas, like,

485
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: fought in wars and then came back home and would

486
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 1: have been the first to tell you that he took

487
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: every dime he ever made and handed it over to

488
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: his wife, who managed all of the family finances because

489
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: he had an eighth grade education and she was really

490
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: good at math, right, right. He never felt like less

491
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: of a man as a result of it.

492
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: I Oh, yeah, I mean that's I mean, that's the

493
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 2: thing that I think, especially that generation was offered like

494
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: in that sense because so many served. Yeah, they come

495
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: back and like maybe just come back and like, you

496
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: know what, I realized, I don't know shit about math. Man.

497
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 2: Just to take these checks. Yeah, yeah, just keep me

498
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: fed and I'll be okay.

499
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: So Moskin was a major advocate of the idea that

500
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: the increasing visibility of gay men, and remember this is

501
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, goddamn mate, was a signed that American men

502
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: were losing their potency now, as opposed to the crisis

503
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: of manhood around the turn of the century or the

504
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. The chief fear here wasn't that women were

505
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: ruining young boys. Instead, now it had moved on to

506
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: a feeling that in a world of more liberated women,

507
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: men might have to work harder to find companionship. Now.

508
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: The MA influencer who sailed into this breach was kind

509
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: of ironically the least toxic guy we're going to talk

510
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: about in these episodes, Hugh Hefner. And I'm not saying

511
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: he was a very toxic man.

512
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah yeah.

513
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: Playboy actually offered in addition to a new vision of manhood,

514
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: it offered a new vision of like womanhood that was

515
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: in some ways less poisonous than what had come before, right,

516
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: in part because women were not seen in Playboy as

517
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 1: a threat as opposed to women being interested in you

518
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 1: was shown as a sign of vigor and success.

519
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: Right.

520
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: There's a lot that's toxic about that. But it wasn't

521
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: telling men you should be scared of women because they're working, right.

522
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: It was more telling them that your ability to be

523
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: interesting to these new liberated women is what defines you

524
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: as a man.

525
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 2: You know.

526
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: And again there's toxic stuff there, but it's less poisonous

527
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: than some of the stuff we've talked about.

528
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: But it's centered.

529
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 3: It's like, no, man, you're less than and can do better.

530
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: It's not them you and.

531
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: You need to meet their new and expanded interests too

532
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: by by changing and all, you know, largely by buying

533
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: things right, by being by like having a bachelor pad,

534
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: by purchasing these kind of luxury item.

535
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: Having having multiple rooms that were just gigantic mattresses. Ye people,

536
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 2: but yeah.

537
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, like Hugh Hefner is not doing this because

538
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: it's the good thing to do, but it does. It

539
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: is like less poisonous than like women are corrupting your

540
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: children because they're they're they're raising them. Yeah right now.

541
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: Playboy helped ignite a market for a new kind of

542
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: content aimed entirely at men, as the men's adventure magazines were,

543
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: but focused on cultivating an image of class and refinement

544
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: by selling designer clothing and high end stereo equipment to

545
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: guys with disposable income. And I also think it's a

546
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: little less toxic to be like spend your disposable income

547
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: on like gym shit or getting taller, as opposed to like,

548
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: at least you've got a stereo. If you buy a stereo,

549
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: maybe it won't actually help you pick up a lady,

550
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: but at least you've got a stereo.

551
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: Right, And maybe a grand kid comes across that amplify

552
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: and he's like, hey.

553
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you get a fucking sweet amp.

554
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah I can sell that for drugs, right.

555
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: Yes, for the news sign of masculinity. Now. One of

556
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: the magazines that came from this moment was Esquire, which

557
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty eight published an article you will see

558
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: cited in every history of American masculinity. If you read

559
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: any of these modern day like published in the last

560
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: year or two articles about our current crisis of masculinity,

561
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: they will all reference an article called the Crisis of

562
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: American Masculinity by Arthur Slschinger Junior. Now, Arthur was kind

563
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: of the platonic ideal of an East Coast intellectual elite.

564
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: His mom's family had come over on the Mayflower. His

565
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: dad was a Prussian Jew who'd converted and sent him

566
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: to Exeter Academy and then Harvard. Over a long career

567
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: as a political writer, he laid down the definitive first

568
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: biography of JFK's White House. He convinced RFK to run

569
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: for president. He then wrote a definitive book about RFK

570
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: after he was assassinated. He invented the term the Imperial presidency.

571
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: So he's a guy people listened to, and also, I

572
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: wall wager, a guy who knew very little about how

573
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: the average man in the US felt about masculinity. Right,

574
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: he was not a guy who talked to a lot

575
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: of blue collar laborers. You know, his friends are all

576
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: wealthy and influential elites. In nineteen fifty eight, he decided

577
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: to write an article that reflected their fears about manhood.

578
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: Because this was the late fifties, it ran into Esquire

579
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: next to one of the better cigarette ads I've seen, Miles,

580
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 1: does this make you want a pall mall? Because I'll

581
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: tell you what.

582
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: Oh damn wait, how do I how do I get

583
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 3: that flap?

584
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: Like lobster and tobacco, two great tastes that go great together.

585
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: Look, I'm always I've always said, there's nothing that goes

586
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: together like North Carolina, North Carolinian tobacco and shellfish just

587
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: mixing in my mouth.

588
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: Look, when you're when you're eating the shellfish in Atlantic City,

589
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: it's been rancid for up to seventy two hours before

590
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: it hits your plate. You need a pall mall to

591
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: coat your throat. That's just a protective effects.

592
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's how you.

593
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, you fight off the bacterial infection.

594
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: The way to survive eating Atlantic City shellfish?

595
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: What the fucking lifestyles? Like? You want this, bro? We

596
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: know you want to have a fucking cigarette in one hand,

597
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: bunch of fucking shrimp sucking down seventy degrees quote unquote fresh.

598
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, man, that's not the way to advertise these things. Hey,

599
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: boys want to not eat for days?

600
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yummies. Yeah, your rims are showing now.

601
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: I do find it interesting too that ad uses the

602
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: term smoked out uh no, dry smoked out taste, but

603
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: in a very different term to how we use smoked

604
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: out today as wow. But now I'm like, hold on,

605
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: Paul Maul, what are you saying? I'm back fascinating. Slashinger's

606
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: article is still deeply influential today, in part because it

607
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: seems so modern. When he lists archetypes of masculinity, they're

608
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: all characters from books or movies, and a huge amount

609
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: of his conclusions on this crisis are based on media.

610
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: Hemmingway's later books, for example, he cites his evidence that

611
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: men have become men in general have become preoccupied with

612
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: proving their virility, and like, I might suggest that Hemingway's

613
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: lack of self confidence as he aged might have more

614
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: to do with why those books were the way they

615
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: were than how the average American was in nineteen fifty eight.

616
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe that makes a little more problem.

617
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: It's not a problem, a meat problem. Yeah, obviously the

618
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: average of Himingway was channeling Joe Schmoe in these books.

619
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: He wrote fourteen seconds before blowing his brains out, You know,

620
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: clearly just fascinating conclusions that he came to.

621
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: Here.

622
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: Now it becomes clear a few paragraphs in that Slushinger

623
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: is personally upset with some of the same things that

624
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: had worried men a generation earlier. Quote. While men design

625
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: dresses and brew up cosmetics, women become doctors, lawyers, bank cashiers,

626
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: and executives. Women now fill many masculine roles, writes the

627
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: psychologist doctor Brunel Bettelheim, and expect their husbands to assume

628
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: many of the tasks once reserved for their own sex.

629
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: They see men expanding aggressive force, seizing new domains like

630
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: a conquering army, while men, more and more on the defensive,

631
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: are hardly able to hold their own and gracefully accept

632
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: assignments from their new rulers. Yeah, they're new rulers. Women

633
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: ruling everything in nineteen fifty.

634
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: Eighth, How did they see the future?

635
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah?

636
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff.

637
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: Patriarchy.

638
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: Two men are making Now, now, as a liberal intellectual,

639
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: I will say Arthur doesn't let himself go too far

640
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: down this road. He does pivot by it. First off,

641
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: he says that like, well, we can't turn things around.

642
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: Once women have gotten a taste of freedom, They're just

643
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: going to keep being free, and we have staff to

644
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: accept that, right, And he does point out he also

645
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: makes a note that like, obviously there's a chance that

646
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: a man who helps out with cleaning the house might

647
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: just be super confident in his masculinity. Right, maybe maybe

648
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: a man who literally stabbed ss men to death with

649
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: frozen icicles doesn't feel emasculated by sweeping, you know. But

650
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: then we get this line. But there is more impressive

651
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: evidence than the helpful husband that this is an age

652
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: of sexual ambiguity. It appears no accent, for example, that

653
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: the changing of sex, the Christine Jorgensen phenomenon so fascinates

654
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: our newspaper editors and readers, or that homosexuality, that incarnation

655
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: of sexual ambiguity should be encouraged enjoying a cultural boom

656
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: new in our history. Now, we've talked about Christine Organson

657
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: on the show before. She was probably the first transgender

658
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: woman on American television. You know, she was kind of

659
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: the first public transgender celebrity in like American life. And

660
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: she was you know because in part because she was

661
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: seen as kind of singular as opposed to a symbol

662
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: of a community of people. I think she actually got

663
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: a lot less attacked than you know, we currently see

664
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: today in like the right wing anti trans culture war.

665
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: She was kind of described. She was often seen as

666
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: like this is one person who is like has this

667
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: peculiar thing about them or having on them on TV

668
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: to talk about it, as opposed to like, you know,

669
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: something broader. But it is interesting to me that, like,

670
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: in this foundational work of American male insecurity slashing her

671
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: picks on a trans woman, right, like that is kind

672
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: of kind of fascinating, and he's not the only guy

673
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: doing it, but he does so in a way that's

674
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: like very familiar to the modern era. It's like she's

675
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: a sign that men in general are less confident in

676
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: being men, just like colleague, homosexuality a sign of sexual ambiguity,

677
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: and like, man, there's nothing ambiguous about being clear pretty clear?

678
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: Yeah I want, yeah, but I do I do consider

679
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: it worthwhile to draw the connection right now if you

680
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: can tolerate the way that Slashinger writes, and that is

681
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: a big if. His article is extremely funny. At points.

682
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: There's a long segment where he frets over homosexual male

683
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: characters in fiction and how they suggest men are rejecting

684
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: normal female desire for full and reciprocal love, And then

685
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: he writes this incredible paragraph. One can pause and note

686
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: why the Gary Cooper's, Carry Grants, Clark Gables, and Spencer

687
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: Tracy's continue to play romantic leads opposite girls young enough

688
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: to be their daughters. It's obviously because so few of

689
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: the younger male stars can project a convincing sense of masculinity. Man,

690
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: that's why. Yeah, that's why, bro, It's going to keep

691
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: happening for all of the time that movies exist. Yes,

692
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: holy shit, Yes, it's just that these these young bucks

693
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: can't compete with the sex the masculinity of a carry

694
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: Gary Cooper, you know. Yeah, hell yeah.

695
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: Wow, so funny.

696
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 2: Love that.

697
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: That's so funny.

698
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: Bottle that up. I love that. Yeah, man, it's because

699
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: these guys can't get their dicks up.

700
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: It's not because a lot of men like very young women.

701
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: It has to be because of this absolutely just nuts,

702
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, what else is crazy, Miles, the deals that

703
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: our advertisers will guarantee you absolutely so out of their

704
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: mind that they have been fifty one to fifty and

705
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: are currently being held in a psychiatric facility against their will.

706
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: It's really a problem.

707
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're wearing grippy socks.

708
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, we're back. So Arthur does come, despite some

709
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: very very silly lines, to a decent enough conclusion. I

710
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: will say, this is not like a hateful article, it's

711
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: just deeply out of touch. And his conclusion is that

712
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: if we can't there's no like recovering the old style

713
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: of masculinity. Things have changed. Women now have much more

714
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: freedom than they do, and that that's not going backwards.

715
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: Right.

716
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: So he specifically states, I'll give him credit for this.

717
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: He's like, trying to go back to the old style

718
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: of masculinity is as foolish as trying to bring back

719
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: white supremacy. Right. He describes both as the neuroses of

720
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: an immature society, and then he goes on to suggest

721
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: that men need to remake themselves. And this is again

722
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: where you get to, well, you're just a deeply out

723
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: of touched coastal elite. Where he's like and obviously the

724
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: way for men to relate to make themselves is through

725
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: satire and politics. Right, men should write funny articles for

726
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: the New Yorker to recover their masculinity.

727
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 4: How many smoking jackets do you get into politics? He writes,

728
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 4: A virile political life will be definite and hard hitting,

729
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 4: respecting debate and dissent, seeking clarity and decision. Basically, he's like,

730
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: to solve the crisis of vasculinity, we need to defight

731
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: to find masculinity as like writing pithy articles for a

732
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 4: living and political columns, you know, which is exactly what

733
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 4: he does.

734
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: Arthur Sleshinger, a man who was not at all insecure

735
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: about his manhood does for a living. Yeah, I just

736
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: find that so funny. Now, obviously, Miles, in our modern era,

737
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: where men still control most of the wealth and power

738
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 1: in society, one of the best ways to profit off

739
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: the masculinity crisis is to sell guys like Arthur Slushinger,

740
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: who himself was not Again not going to make fun

741
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: of his appearance, but if you look at a picture

742
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: of him, not an imposing figure, right to sell guys

743
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: like that an image of masculinity they want to copy,

744
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: and as we sort of started the episode with the

745
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 1: model is very consistent across all of the grifters today. Right,

746
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: And it's a guy who looks like a Navy seal

747
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: in a movie from the mid odds. Right, it's like

748
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: a fat yeah. Right, And to give you an example,

749
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: they all look kind of like this. Right. If there's

750
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: a phenotype for manfluencers, the most common one by far,

751
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: and like Andrew Tait doesn't match this, but a lot

752
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: of them do. Right, Yeah, it's this guy. He's got

753
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: like kind of a military style haircut. He's got a

754
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: big beard. He's either wearing a tailored suit, workout gear,

755
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: or like combat gear, right, right, all of like the

756
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: eighty percent of the dudes in this tailored attack gear

757
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,479
Speaker 1: or Taylor tack gear.

758
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: Right.

759
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: Too skinny of a tie, personally, too skinny of a tie.

760
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: You know, Beard clearly died, but whatever. Now, there's a

761
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 1: million of these guys out there. But the particular guy

762
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: whose photo I just showed you is named Jack Murphy. Now,

763
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: Jack came up in a similar social stratus to slashing

764
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: around his peers. He graduated George Mason University and then

765
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: went to Georgetown School of Foreign Service, where he earned

766
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: an MA in International Affairs. He has talked about his

767
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: childhood as being extremely difficult and like abusive. Maybe that's true.

768
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, because this man's a liar. I'm really

769
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: not going to get into it much. This is not

770
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: a full bet beyond the guy. But either way, he

771
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: goes to Georgetown Town and he gets an MA in internationals. Right,

772
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: he gets a job consulting. This is not a poor person.

773
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: This is a guy who gets a job consulting on

774
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: two different charter schools in the DC area and eventually

775
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: winds up running two charter schools. Barbara Smith, who worked

776
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: under him and eventually wrote a book about the experience,

777
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: claims that he fired off staff in order to collect

778
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: two executive director salaries, making a cut like a million

779
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: dollars in change in the few years that he's there

780
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: right now. During his time in power over these schools,

781
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: they had the lowest family return rates for any charter

782
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: schools in the district. And by the way, he is

783
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: working in a majority black district. So this is a

784
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: white guy who came into a majority black district basically

785
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: took over, gutted two charter schools, fucked them up seriously.

786
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: And pocketed the money. Right, that's Jack.

787
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: School choice, man. We need to see a choice though.

788
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, critically important, not just a way to empower these freaks. Yeah.

789
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, the year after gamer Gate, Jack realized

790
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: that there was an even better con out there blogging

791
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: about masculinityte In one article that year, quote, it is

792
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: our duty as men to save the feminists from themselves.

793
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: Therefore I am offering rape to feminists as an olive branch.

794
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: Now this guy, this guy, Yeah, he may have heard

795
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: about him. He got a lot of this is he

796
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: kind of broached into the mainstream a little bit when

797
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: he wrote that, because people are very angry about it. Unfortunately,

798
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: it doesn't really hurt guys like this. We'll talk about

799
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: what hurts guys like this, because the good news is

800
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: that Jack is now no longer a major figure in

801
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: the right wing. Right Now, this guy's whole life is

802
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: like a conservative fantasy. Right. He cashes in on hurting

803
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: black black kids particularly, and gets rich off of like

804
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: running charter schools into the ground. That's their dream. Right.

805
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: But despite this, he pretends to have been a liberal,

806
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: and in twenty eighteen writes a book titled Democrat to deplorable,

807
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: an attempt to take advantage of the fact that right

808
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: after Trump's election, certain kinds of journalists, particularly at the

809
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: times we're starving to platf guys like him, and his

810
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: hope was, I write this book, They'll all do to

811
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: me what they did to Jade Vance, right, where I'll

812
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: suddenly get all this mainstream legitimacy for explaining why very

813
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: reasonable people used to be very liberal were now Donald Trump.

814
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: You know, we just got forced to write now. Unfortunately

815
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: for Jack, he was a little late in this. Right.

816
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: If this book could come out and like spring of

817
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, right, he might have really had something here, right,

818
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: that would have been the ideal time to launch this grift.

819
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: Twenty eighteen is a little late. For one thing, it's

820
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: after Charlottesville, right.

821
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, that's kind of the window.

822
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: That's kind of a window. You were just a little

823
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: bit too late, man. I know publishing is a slow process, Homeinge, Like,

824
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: I get it. It's tough. It's tough to make those deadlines.

825
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: To his credit, he saw the future of monetizing being

826
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: a guy like this, though, was in selling coaching services,

827
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: and so he launched the Limital Order, where for one

828
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: hundred dollars a month, young men could learn to stop

829
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: being beta males. And this is almost the same grift

830
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: that Andrew Tate has set up, right, Like, it's this

831
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: this whole thing where like you pay me a monthly

832
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: salary to get exam, like, you know, access to a

833
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: chat room where I will coach you in being you know,

834
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: a better man, a stronger man.

835
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: Right.

836
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: And I think that's traffic out of traffic women, right.

837
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if Jack would have gotten into that,

838
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: probably if you didn't have enough time. He also started

839
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: trying to rebrand as a gun fluencer and posing in

840
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: badly set up tactical gear. This just is not how

841
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: you do it. You don't put the gun there, man,

842
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: You don't put the gun there. You want to draw

843
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: your fucking side arm and shoot yourself in the shoulder. Homie,

844
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: is that what you're looking for? Brow? What is he?

845
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: What are you doing? What are you looking like? Did

846
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: you see holding a gun that way? Yeah?

847
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 2: I mean it's just clearly it's like I saw a

848
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: video I saw a video game cover that looked like this,

849
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm impersonating.

850
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 1: We have at this point a couple of hundred years

851
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: of men wearing guns professionally, and everyone agrees somewhere around

852
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: the waist, right, we could debate the position around the waist,

853
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: but somewhere around the waist, not your sternum. You know,

854
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: what are you doing?

855
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: Man? Oh I just clocked what do you like?

856
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: A glock on his classical block? It is fucking classical?

857
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: Oh sorry? Did I tend to turn up the contrast

858
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 2: on my screen to be.

859
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: Like fucking hell?

860
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 2: Wow?

861
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: Yeah?

862
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: You know when you pull that thing out, you want

863
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: whoever you're aiming that at, You're like, dude, this thing

864
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 2: sounds like your armpit.

865
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's the right way to fucking carry

866
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: a gun, my guy, I know. So Jack launched a

867
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: podcast where he hosted guests like Mike Cernovich and Jack Bisobic,

868
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: men who had been moderately more successful than him, and

869
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: cultivating an audience and followers with variations of the same grift,

870
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: and then, near the end of twenty twenty one, disaster struck.

871
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: Some of his fans found that back in twenty fifteen,

872
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 1: he'd done something besides blog about feminism. He'd written about

873
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: his love of being cuckolded. Yeah, oh that's wrong. This

874
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: guy's a fun one. This guy's a fun while being cuckold.

875
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: It is a perfectly fine fetish in which a man

876
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: has his girlfriend or a wife or whomever pick up

877
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: other men and fuck them in front of him. As

878
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: far as things people do in bed go, we would

879
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: call this pretty vanilla where.

880
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: I come from.

881
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 1: But on the right, watch someone have sex, right right, Okay,

882
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: share whatever. On the right wing twenty twenty twenty one,

883
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: cuck was maybe the single most popular insult so coming

884
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: out as you're trying to brand yourself as an influence

885
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: into space that you are literally a cuck not gonna

886
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: go over well. Right after this comes out, Jack gets

887
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: interviewed by The Blaze and he's asked about his fetish.

888
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: In a medium post, Jonathan Pletti summarizes what happened next,

889
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: he exploded at the female host, I'm not going to

890
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: talk about this, and basically, you know, fuck you for

891
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: bringing this up right here and right now. Why are

892
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: you doing this to me? Talking to social media afterwards,

893
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: he tried to get the hosts of the interview fired.

894
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: It was perceived as so unhinged as a fuel curiosity

895
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: about his past, right wingers found themselves on a Russian

896
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: porn website watching amateur masturbation videos done in twenty eighteen

897
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: for a gay audience called Big Bad Bear one thousand.

898
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: Here was Jack naked on camera, calling himself hetero flexible

899
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: and talking about his history of male male sex. I

900
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: like men, I like men, and I like boys. Wow

901
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 1: the boys.

902
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 3: Great stuff, bro, Yeah yeah, I know that that's that great.

903
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

904
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: I mean again, when this poor guy, you didn't have

905
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: to almost blow your armpit off with a gun or

906
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: any of this other stuff.

907
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 3: You could have just lived your truth. You could have

908
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: much of your life.

909
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

910
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, you still could have written a bad book. You know. Hey,

911
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: people can write terrible books too, everyone can. That's you're

912
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: right as an American.

913
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, don't not get that. Get that pistol

914
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 3: away from you.

915
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: Still carry a gun that way, you shouldn't have a

916
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: gun at all, Jack.

917
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

918
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: Now, there are more influential far and by the way,

919
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: this guy was a fellow at the Claremont Institute, So

920
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: great stuff. They are more influential far right masculinity grifters.

921
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: But I think Jack represents the pulsing insecurity at the

922
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: heart of every one of these dudes. He is a

923
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: human embodiment of what these crises of masculinity really are

924
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 1: at their core and always have been, boring men from

925
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,479
Speaker 1: privileged backgrounds, working high paid but useless jobs that don't

926
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: make them quite enough to paper over the deep, yawning

927
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: void at the center of their soul. I've been pretty

928
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: critical of that Slashinger piece this episode, and I think

929
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: with good reason. But I will give Arthur credit. There's

930
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: a paragraph in his piece that absolutely describes Jack and

931
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys to a t. The pre

932
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: democratic world was characteristically a world of status, in which

933
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: people were provided with ready made identities, but modern Western society, free, equalitarian,

934
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: democratic has swept away all the old niches in which people,

935
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: for so many centuries found safe refuge. Only a few

936
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: people at any time in human history have enjoyed the

937
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: challenge of making themselves. Most have fled from the unendurable

938
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: burden of freedom into the womblike security of the group.

939
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: The new age of social mobility may be fine for

940
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 1: those strong enough to discover and develop their own roles

941
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: before the timid and the frightened, who constitute the majority

942
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: in any age, The great vacant spaces of equalitarian society

943
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: can become a nightmare filled with nameless horrors.

944
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 2: Yeah all right, yep, didn't miss on that one.

945
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't miss on that one. I think that

946
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: really gets I think that gets a lot of what's

947
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: going on with these guys is there's this they have freedom,

948
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: they could be whoever they wanted to be, right, and

949
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: they see I think it's part of it's not all of,

950
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: but it's part of like why trains people are such

951
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: a constant focus for them. They see some people take

952
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: this freedom that exists in our society and that to

953
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: some extent was increased by the coming of the digital age,

954
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: and they're angry and jealous because they don't have the

955
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: courage to find or make themselves in the same way,

956
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: and so they want to attack those people who are

957
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: authentically creating themselves right.

958
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 2: Right, and are much less risky to be like yeah,

959
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: like I like being a cook, Yeah.

960
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: Well whatever, yeah whatever, that's that's who you are, Jack,

961
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: You could have just been that right.

962
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, that that's such a great point of yea. Yeah,

963
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: to see people like where the the stakes are so

964
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: much hire in terms of society's acceptance of them, and

965
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 2: like you have these other guys just like I just

966
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: want to be like a nerd or something.

967
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

968
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that manifesting or metastasizing it to that kind of angers.

969
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, frightening it yeah, frightening bad, sad. But you know,

970
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: kudos to Steve Bannon for realizing this was going on

971
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: and had a fucking profit off of it.

972
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, getting that sweet Seinfeld money too.

973
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was playing his cards right, Maybe

974
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: not the most toxic person involved with Seinfeld, say that's right.

975
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: Ye.

976
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: Anyway, Miles, that's the end of the episode. You get

977
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: anything the plug before we roll out here.

978
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: Check me out if you want to hear me talk

979
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: every day about news politics since the like on the

980
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: Daily Zeitgeist. And look if you also want to blow

981
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: steam off and hear me talk about trash reality show

982
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: with Sophia Alexandra, who's been a past guest on here.

983
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: I'm on four to twenty fiance. Those are the spots

984
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 2: you can check me.

985
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: Well, check that out. And you know, as Miles says,

986
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: every year, yeah, and you know, anyway, once we do that,

987
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: we can take back our country. That's what you're always saying, Miles.

988
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, and I'm backing down man.

989
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, brother, hell yea brother, yeah yeah, hell yeah.

990
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: So anyway, look up Miles's new fertilizer bomb recipe at

991
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: Miles I don't even know what to call that website. Miles,

992
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. Fertilizer Bombs, Yeah anyway.

993
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

994
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

995
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

996
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

997
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is now available on.

998
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our

999
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the Bastards