1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today on the bright Side, as 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: we step into a new year, we're bringing you an 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: encore conversation about something we'll all be considering in twenty 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: twenty five. 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: The Power of Friendship. 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 3: Author and journalist Anna Goldfarb joined us to explore what 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 3: we're getting wrong about modern friendship, what we're getting right, 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 3: and why this is actually the best time ever to 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 3: be a friend. 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: It's Thursday, January two. I'm Simoan Boyce. 11 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 4: I'm Danielle Robe and this is The bright Side from 12 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 4: Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 4: share women's stories, to laugh, learn and brighten your day. 14 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: Samal, we're talking friendship today. I'm excited. Yes, I'm so 15 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: excited too. This is our favorite topic. 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 5: It really is. 17 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 4: And there's a reason we call you our bright Side besties. 18 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 4: We love friendship and so we are here with an 19 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 4: expert today. 20 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: Our guest is Anna Goldfarb. 21 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 4: It's written extensively about friendships and relationships for The New 22 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 4: York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, the list goes on. 23 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 4: But she's also the author of Modern Friendship, How to 24 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 4: Nurture Our Most Valued Connections, and it's a book that 25 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 4: she actually started working on right after experiencing some friendship 26 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 4: breakups in her thirties, some unexpected friendship breakups. 27 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 3: No, my friend says that every woman's Roman Empire is 28 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: a friendship breakup. Like that's the thing that we play 29 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: in our head all the time, Like men maybe think 30 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 3: about the actual Roman Empire. Well, women think about that 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: friendship that just soured and you had this really painful 32 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 3: severing process and you're still not over it. 33 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: I think there's so much truth to that. 34 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 4: I had a friendship breakup the day before I started 35 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 4: high school, so going into ninth grade, and I was 36 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 4: wrecked over it. 37 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: I still think about it today. 38 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: Does it seem worthy the cause when you look back 39 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 3: on it now, does it still seem like, oh, yeah, 40 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: we should have broken up that. 41 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 4: I don't even remember what the cause was. I don't 42 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 4: know that I got the real answer from her. I 43 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 4: don't think we were mature enough to like have that moment. 44 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's still her. 45 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 4: We're in each other's lives now today, like we text, 46 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 4: you know, once or twice a year, just checking in. 47 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: But do you think about any of those those breakups? 48 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 2: I do. 49 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: There's one friendship breakup that happened to me when I 50 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: was a new mom and it was a new mom 51 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 3: friend that meant a lot to me, and it was 52 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 3: really hard at the time. It's stung for a while, 53 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: but I think time heals all wounds, and I think 54 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 3: that I think about it a lot less today, and 55 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: when I do think about it, I'm like, huh, maybe 56 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 3: that was for the better, you know, maybe it wasn't 57 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 3: supposed to work out. But I'm always down to talk 58 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: about this because it's so relatable. It's something that we 59 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: all experience, and honestly, it's something that never goes away, 60 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: even as you get older. I hear my mom talking 61 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 3: about friendships that she I think needs to break up with, 62 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: so it is it's a universal conundrum. And Danielle she 63 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: covers so much ground in her work, which I think 64 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 3: is really refreshing, not just the breakups, but how do 65 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: you revive friendships? Like what does reconciliation look like? How 66 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 3: do we continue to connect with people as we get 67 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 3: older and we move through these different life stages. And 68 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 3: as a journalist, some of her most popular articles have 69 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: been about maintaining friendships, connecting with coworkers, and even dealing 70 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: with a friendship quiet season? 71 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of that? 72 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 3: I actually feel like I have quiet seasons with friendships, 73 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: probably every three months. 74 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? Like you go in 75 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: and out of being an active friend. 76 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 3: This is a great question, and I think we need 77 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 3: to ask her what does a quiet season actually mean? 78 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 3: But if I were to take a guess, it means 79 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 3: you're going through a period where you're not as socially active. 80 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 3: Maybe you're not able to make as much time for 81 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: your friends as you would like. And I definitely go 82 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: through periods like that, like I either respond to your 83 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: text in three minutes or three weeks, and sometimes it's 84 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: going to be three weeks, depending on what life looks 85 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: like at that time. 86 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: How about you? For sure? I think it depends on 87 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: what's going on in your life. 88 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 4: And I feel that with all relationships, like there's moments 89 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 4: where I'm being such an active sister or daughter, and 90 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 4: there's moments where I'm like, Wow, I really suck right now. 91 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 4: But I've read a lot of Anna's pieces and she 92 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 4: said that we actually have to get rid of that guilt. 93 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 4: So I'm excited to ask her about that today because 94 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: I would love to release some of my guilt. 95 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up, Danielle, because getting 96 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 3: rid of guilt is something that I am working on 97 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: right now. 98 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 4: Well, Anna's touching on so much of this in her 99 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 4: writing and her book, but there's actually another really touching 100 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 4: reason that she wrote her book. She wanted to help 101 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 4: honor her dad after he passed away, because her dad 102 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 4: had this longtime friend that he wanted to reconnect with, 103 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 4: but she said he was always too anxious to actually 104 00:04:58,640 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 4: do it. 105 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: And after his. 106 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 4: Passing, Anna learned that that friend felt the same way, 107 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 4: and so she called that experience a turning point for 108 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 4: her and part of the inspiration for her book. And 109 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: we have to dig into that because, like, what a 110 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 4: beautiful inspirational story for all of us. 111 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: That is so heartbreaking to hear. It honestly makes me 112 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 3: want to cry. I want to avoid that at all costs. 113 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 3: I want to figure out, like, how do I live 114 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 3: a life that I can be proud of when it 115 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 3: comes to my relationships and friendships. 116 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: What a beautiful story. 117 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 4: Well that's why we're here today. We're gonna dig into friendships. 118 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 4: We're getting into all things friendship with Anna Goldfarb. That's 119 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 4: right after the break, stay with. 120 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:49,559 Speaker 2: Us, Anna, Welcome to the bright Side. 121 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 122 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: Well, we're so excited to talk friendship with you. 123 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 4: And you know, my great grandmother lived until she was 124 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 4: one hundred and one years old, and in her late nineties, 125 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 4: I would call her and ask how she was, and 126 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 4: without a doubt, she would talk to me about the 127 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 4: drama at her lunch table or her friends at her 128 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 4: bridge game. 129 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: And I realized that whether we are. 130 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 4: In our twenties or in our late nineties, we are 131 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 4: all trying to navigate friendship. And you have been dubbed 132 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 4: the New York Times friendship corresponding. I can't imagine that 133 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: you grow into a title like that without struggling and 134 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 4: navigating connection yourself. 135 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: Why did you start writing about friendship? 136 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 5: I started reporting on friendships in like twenty seventeen, and 137 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 5: I had no idea friendship experts were even a thing 138 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 5: like that. That blew my mind that it was someone's 139 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 5: job to analyze friendships and translate friendship trends, and that 140 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 5: just was like what I had no idea. And the 141 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 5: more I learned about friendships and how they work, the 142 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 5: more questions I had, and with the pandemic, it was 143 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 5: this incredible opportunity where everyone was re imagining their friendships 144 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 5: at once, which is historically wild. I mean, normally we 145 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 5: have our own dramas, our own hiccups, and we're trying 146 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 5: to feel around in the dark for how to move 147 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 5: through them. But to have this opportunity where everyone was like, well, 148 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 5: how does this work? How do we live in a 149 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 5: world where seeing a friend could be literally life or death? 150 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 5: So I just dove in and a lot of the 151 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 5: advice around the lockdown, if you remember, was reach out 152 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 5: to that friend, like send that message, send that email. 153 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 5: And I wrote an article for The Times saying should 154 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 5: you reach out to that friend right now? Because part 155 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 5: of my thinking was, well, why haven't you been in touch? 156 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 5: Like why has there been this lapse in your friendship? 157 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 5: Let's take a look at what's going on here. And 158 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 5: those kinds of articles got me the most excited because 159 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 5: I just felt like there was a real hunger for 160 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 5: this knowledge. This is this was like questions that people 161 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 5: had but didn't think to articulate, so or maybe they 162 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 5: did fight and hear it. So I hope to illuminate 163 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 5: what these issues are. 164 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: Anna what's the article that you've written that you get 165 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 3: the most engagement from. 166 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 5: Let me think, Well, one of the ones I love 167 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 5: the most was how to Handle a Quiet Season and 168 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 5: a Friendship? And I thought it was such a poetic 169 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 5: way to talk about the rolls that we have in 170 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 5: our friendship. And you know, it's so easy to generate 171 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 5: a narrative with very little information, so I wanted to 172 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 5: dive into that, like why do we fill in the 173 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 5: gaps with our silences from our friends? And how do 174 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 5: we handle it? Do you confront them, do you ask them? 175 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 5: Do you just hide in a hole and hope things change? 176 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 5: I mean, how do you handle the quiet season? And 177 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 5: part of that was, you know, people always say friendships 178 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: last reason or a season or a lifetime, and I 179 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 5: hate that. I honestly hate it because I'm like, well, 180 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 5: why why is it a season? Why is it a 181 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 5: Why is one friendship a lifetime and one a season? 182 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 5: Like tell me more old adage, Like I feel like 183 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 5: you're missing some steps here. So that was part of 184 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 5: the reason I wanted to write this book, was to 185 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 5: really unravel, like what's going on here? 186 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 3: We do hear that often that friendships are made for 187 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: a certain season of life. And you've actually written a 188 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: lot about friendship breakups. 189 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 5: I mean that's part of why I'm obsessed with friendship 190 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 5: because I have a busted, tattered trail of friendships where 191 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 5: I didn't know if it was my issue, was I 192 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 5: flubbing the brief? Was it their issue? Is it just 193 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 5: living in America in twenty twenty four? Like, is it 194 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 5: that our culture friendships are so precarious nowadays? I mean, 195 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 5: it's so easy to break up with friends. That's because 196 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,479 Speaker 5: our friendships are mostly based on interests. They're based on passions, 197 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,119 Speaker 5: and our passions change, our priorities change, so our friendships 198 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 5: are like part of that chure and they're part of 199 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 5: that mix. Actually, studies show that we lose half of 200 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 5: our friendships every seven years, and that's such a staggering 201 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 5: stat It's like, oh my god, are we just monsters 202 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 5: and ogres moving through life like cutting down our friendships 203 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 5: left and right. But when I learned more about it, 204 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 5: it's actually I thought something beautiful. Because we change, we grow, 205 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 5: we evolve, and we seek out people who meet us 206 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 5: where our changing interests lie. 207 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 4: That's so interesting. You're taking the guilt out of it all. Yeah, 208 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 4: I'm like, please, don't be guilty. It's really really hard, 209 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 4: you know. 210 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 5: I spent a lot of time in my book going 211 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 5: over our culture and talking about how we live in 212 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 5: a hyper fluid society now, and this is historically new. 213 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 5: It's very different than our grandparents and great grandparents, whose 214 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 5: social lives were more like an oak tree, where they 215 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 5: had deep roots and they basically stayed in the same town. 216 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 5: They didn't have to try very hard to keep their 217 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 5: friendships going. They had these other institutions that helped keep 218 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 5: these give a framework for these friendships to practice in. 219 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 5: But we live in a society that's more like a 220 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 5: bicycle wheel where we're in the middle, and we have 221 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 5: these groups of friends from childhood, from high school, from 222 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 5: college if you went to college, from your first job, 223 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 5: your second job, and they only share common history with us, 224 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 5: not with each other. So the burden has shifted onto 225 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 5: us to come up with reasons to keep a friendship active. 226 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 5: So there has been this big shift in personal responsibility 227 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 5: to keep these friendships going. And we don't have any help. 228 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 5: We don't have an institution that's like we're throwing an 229 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 5: ice cream social on Sunday. Literally show up, you have 230 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 5: to spend no energy of But when are we going 231 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,359 Speaker 5: to get together again? It is not in our imagination. 232 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 5: It is much much harder to keep friendships these days. 233 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. 234 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 4: I read this book by Robert Putnam called Bowling Alone, 235 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 4: and it's about like the individualization about American society. 236 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: And that's what you're talking about. 237 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 4: Like there used to be bowling clubs on Wednesday nights 238 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 4: where people would gather, so I've never thought about that. 239 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: But it is harder to gather. There is more work 240 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 4: that goes into it. I guess I understand the title 241 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 4: of your book now more, which is Modern Friendship, and 242 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 4: you say it's a guide to creating wholehearted relationships. What 243 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 4: makes a wholehearted friendship? You know? 244 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 5: I wanted a word to describe the kind of friend 245 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 5: I wanted to be, and I really couldn't think of anything. 246 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 5: I'm like, a good friend, a great friend, Like it 247 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 5: wasn't descriptive enough for me. And wholehearted means dedicated, committed, 248 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 5: and enthusiastic, and I'm like, that's it. That's the kind 249 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 5: of friend I want to be to my favorite friends. 250 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 5: I want them to think of me like that. So 251 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 5: I developed a paradigm called wholehearted friendship because I was 252 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 5: noticing a disconnect if I wanted to love my friends, 253 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 5: I wanted to support my friends, but they didn't feel 254 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 5: loved or supported. And I based this paradigm around the 255 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 5: study by doctor Jeffrey A. 256 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 4: Hall. 257 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 5: He's a professor of communication in Kansas, and he found 258 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 5: that it takes two hundred hours of shared time to 259 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 5: go from stranger to close friend. That's a lot of time. 260 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 5: Two hundred hours a lot of time. But we have 261 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 5: that time when we're younger, when we aren't as many 262 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 5: things to as many people. You know, what are our roles? 263 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 5: We're like a child, a student, a grandkid maybe, Like 264 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 5: there's not much pulling on our time. But once we 265 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 5: reach thirty, our friendships fall off a cliff. But that's 266 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 5: because we become more things to more people. You become 267 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 5: a spouse maybe, or you're a significant other. You become 268 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 5: an employee, you become maybe a daughter in law, an auntie. Like, 269 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 5: there's all these other roles that take a lot of time. 270 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 5: So who do we spend time with? That's that's what 271 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 5: wholehearted friendship's about. It's three d's desire diligence, and delight, 272 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 5: and desire is who am I yearning to spend time with, 273 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 5: Diligence is who do I prioritize spending time with? And 274 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 5: delight is who do I actually enjoy this time I'm 275 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 5: spending with And those three things. It's all based on time, 276 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 5: because friendships are time. They're a story of time. 277 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: The delight part is so huge for me. I decided 278 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: a few years ago that I'm not doing pity hangs anymore. 279 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 3: I know that might sound harsh, but if you don't 280 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 3: delight me while we're hanging out, and vice versa, if 281 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 3: I'm not delighting you, what are we doing this for? 282 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: You know, like, let's not waste anyone's time here. We 283 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: should be making the most of the time that we 284 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 3: spend with each other, because you're right, come so many 285 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 3: things to so many different people in that time diminishes 286 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: as we get older. 287 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 4: So you have this analogy about fitting friends into groups, 288 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 4: and I love that they're aquatic theme. Do you say 289 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 4: friendships are supposed to fit into a bathtub, a jacuzzi, 290 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 4: or a swimming pool? Can you break each of those 291 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 4: down for us? 292 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? 293 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 5: Absolutely. These numbers are based on Robin Dunbar's finding. He's 294 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 5: a British anthropologist. He is wonderful. He's done a lot 295 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 5: of work in social groups, and I rebranded these groups 296 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 5: to highlight how fluid they are. Our friendships are very fluid. 297 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 5: They can go from really intense to less intense all 298 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 5: the time for any reason. So the innermost here is 299 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 5: what I call the bathtub because it's really small, not 300 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 5: too many people fit in it. For men, it's usually 301 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 5: one other person in their bathtub, it's usually their significant other. 302 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 5: For women, it's usually two people. It's their significant other 303 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 5: and a best friend. So right there is showing like 304 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 5: the gender differences between how we practice friendships. The next 305 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 5: tier is your jacuzi, and that's because there's three to 306 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 5: five people and perfect size for a jacuzi. And these 307 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 5: are the people you'd think in an Academy award speech. 308 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 5: These are the people you'd call, you know, if you 309 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 5: had great news, if you had scary news. This is 310 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 5: your closest support group. And then the outer tier from 311 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 5: there is your swimming pool, and that's ten to fifteen people. 312 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 5: Those are the people you'd house it for, maybe coworker, 313 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 5: favorite coworkers, maybe people you'd double date with. And this 314 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 5: is what a social life should look like ideally, And 315 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 5: I want to give a caveat that when you are 316 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 5: going through a huge milestone change, you may not have 317 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 5: the bandwidth to nurture three to five close friendships. Like 318 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 5: if you're you just had a baby, you just lost 319 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 5: a job, you're going through depression. Like, it's okay if 320 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 5: you don't have them at the moment, but hopefully you 321 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 5: don't stay there. That this is the ideal, This is 322 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 5: something to work towards. 323 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 3: I love those analogies. It's so easy to visualize them. 324 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 3: I love thinking about it that way. So thank you 325 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 3: for that framework. 326 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 4: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be 327 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 4: right back talking about friendship with Anna Goldfarb. 328 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 3: And we're back, okay, Anna, let's talk about the Golden 329 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: age of friendship. 330 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? Are we in it 331 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: right now? 332 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 5: I wrote an op ed for the Washington Post about this, 333 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 5: that we should be in the Golden age of friendship, 334 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 5: but we're not. It's so easy to reach out to people, 335 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 5: you know, time and distance are no longer a factor. 336 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 5: We can just reach out to anyone at any time. 337 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: But we don't. 338 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 5: We know, my phone is full of people that I love, 339 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 5: but I don't reach out to them very often, So like, 340 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 5: what's going on here? And here's what I learned. Our 341 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 5: social life nowadays is like a supermarket. And you know, 342 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 5: when you're starving and you try to go shopping and 343 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 5: you add the most random stuff to your cart, like, 344 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 5: you know, mazzarella sticks from the hot bar. You know, 345 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 5: maybe like a random sandwich from the deli. Like you 346 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 5: just put whatever your cravings are screaming for in your cart, 347 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 5: and then you check out and you're like, how am 348 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 5: I going to make a meal out of any of 349 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 5: these random things I've just put in this cart. Now, 350 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 5: imagine grocery shopping when you're full and you have a 351 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 5: list and you know exactly what belongs in your cart, 352 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 5: and going food shopping isn't so overwhelming and you make 353 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 5: better choices. And that's what our lives are like today. 354 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 5: Our friendships are a supermarket. And here's what I mean. 355 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 5: When you go on social media and you see a 356 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 5: feed of all of these people that you know that 357 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 5: only have come in history with you, not with each other, 358 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 5: it's really overwhelming. It's like, oh that's my old coworker. 359 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 5: Oh she just moved. Oh I guess I missed it. 360 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 5: I wonder how she's doing. And you get distracted by 361 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 5: all these thoughts and it's really hard to feel full 362 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 5: and feel craving, you feel longing, you feel comparison, like 363 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 5: it's just it's a bad time. But if you go 364 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 5: and you know who belongs in your cart, if you 365 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 5: map out these are the three to five friends that 366 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 5: I'm committing to being a wonderful, wholehearted friend to, you 367 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 5: don't have that hunger. You're not scrambling to figure out, 368 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 5: like how do I keep these friendships spinning? How do 369 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 5: I keep it afloat? And that's what we need. We 370 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 5: need to be more intentional with who we commit to, 371 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 5: with who we extend interest to. So that's the conversation 372 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 5: I want to have, is we can have the golden 373 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 5: age of friendship. We just have to have a strategy. 374 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, how about when somebody is not reciprocal, when they're 375 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 4: not a great teammate for you, how long do you 376 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 4: let that slide? People are you know, have seasons throughout 377 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 4: their life, say they're not a great teammate for three months, 378 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 4: six months, one year. At what point are they not 379 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 4: a great teammate in general? 380 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 5: Well, I would say to understand what the clear and 381 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 5: compelling about is of the friendship, like why are we 382 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 5: why do I want to fight for this friendship or not? 383 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 5: Is the about really compelling to us? And I also, 384 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 5: as I've learned more about friendships, I've raised my standards. 385 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 5: For someone to be in my jacuzzi is someone I've 386 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 5: known a long time years. I see them with their 387 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 5: other other friendships. I see what kind of person they are, 388 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 5: so I feel more confident that this is someone I 389 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 5: want to keep close and I want to keep around. 390 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 5: But if friendships need to be well, it's actually okay. 391 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 5: If they're not always reciprocal, that's not a bad thing. 392 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 5: It's only bad if someone feels negatively about it, someone's 393 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 5: not feeling great. Because sometimes we're busy at work and 394 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 5: it's great that a friend reaches out more, and sometimes 395 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 5: you know, we're the ones who have a little more 396 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 5: bandwidth and can reach out more and initiate more and 397 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 5: our friends can't. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But 398 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 5: if their friendship isn't feeling aligned, then you definitely can 399 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 5: shuffle them to the outer edges and just move your 400 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 5: energy elsewhere. I'm not really a fan of like a 401 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 5: huge speech unless something happened, like a betrayal or something catastrophic. 402 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 5: I'm happy to just let friendships, like put them on 403 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 5: pause rather than just end them, and that can help 404 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 5: me feel less intense about it, Like you know, I'm 405 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 5: just gonna pause this friendship. Let's see if we can 406 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 5: pick up later. Because I've always been surprised about my friendships. 407 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 5: I don't know if this happens with you guys, but 408 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 5: sometimes I think our friendship is like dead and gone 409 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 5: and buried, and then I hear from them in a 410 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 5: few years and we actually pick up and we've evolved, 411 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 5: and it's been really surprising and a delight of Oh. 412 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 5: I didn't think the friendship was going anywhere. I'm not 413 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 5: all knowing. I'm open to being wrong, I'm open to change. 414 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 5: But that's what I would encourage, is like, maybe your 415 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 5: friendship needs a pause, but it doesn't mean that you 416 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 5: need to have like a dramatic ending. It's it's like, Okay, 417 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 5: I recognize that this isn't feeling great, so let's go 418 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 5: back to the basics. What's our about? Like, is the 419 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 5: about clear and compelling and go from there. 420 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 4: I love that you mentioned the passage of time, because 421 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: I was so moved by the story of friendship that 422 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 4: you shared about your late dad. 423 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: Will you share it with everybody? 424 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share 425 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 5: the story. I talked about in the beginning, how I've 426 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 5: been reporting on friendship. And in June twenty twenty, I 427 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 5: had just written a story should you reach out to 428 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 5: that friend? Which we talked about, and I went to 429 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 5: visit my parents. You know, the co COVID was raging, 430 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 5: so we're outside in their back porch and my dad 431 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 5: said that reading my article opened up an old wound 432 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 5: in him, and it made him think of his childhood 433 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 5: friend Marty. And he didn't know why he stopped talking 434 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 5: to Marty. It'd been like ten or fifteen years and 435 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 5: he really missed him, but he didn't know. He was 436 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 5: scared of reaching out. He was scared of rejection. He 437 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 5: was anxious of like what if he ignores me? And 438 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 5: of course I'm a journalist. I'm like, Dad, let me help, Like, look, 439 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 5: here's his information right here, Like I'll write the message 440 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 5: for you. Just say, hey, Marty, you've been on my mind. 441 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 5: Do you want to get a call on Monday? Which 442 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 5: isn't like the most amazing message ever, but they hadn't 443 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 5: spoken in ten years, so I figured it'd be like 444 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 5: a start, and I wanted to I wanted to heal 445 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 5: this from dad. I wanted to show off, honestly that 446 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 5: I have been writing about friendship, like I can solve 447 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 5: this for you. And I kept pestering him for updates, 448 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 5: like did you reach out? What's up? Did you reach out? 449 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 5: And he never did. He never did. And six months 450 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 5: after we had that conversation, my dad had a serious 451 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 5: infection in his hip and he went to the hospital 452 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 5: for treatment. And while he was in the hospital, he 453 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 5: was exposed to COVID and he contracted COVID and he 454 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 5: deteriorated rapidly since his body was exhausted from fighting the infection, 455 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 5: and three weeks intil January twenty twenty one, he passed away. 456 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 5: None of his friends knew that he was sick. My 457 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 5: dad was a scientist, he was a surfer, he volunteered 458 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 5: at the Special Olympics, like he was a great guy. 459 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 5: And he only had four people at his funeral. You know, 460 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 5: my sister couldn't even attend. She lives in Boston, and 461 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 5: it wasn't safe for her to come. None of his 462 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 5: grandkids could attend his funeral, and it was just horrific. 463 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 5: I mean, it was horrible. And I couldn't stop thinking 464 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 5: about Marty, Like my mind kept turning to Marty. And 465 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 5: two days after my dad passed away, I reached out 466 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 5: to Marty's son on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I need 467 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 5: to speak with your dad. Could you please put me 468 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 5: in touch. Forty five minutes later, I was on the 469 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 5: phone with Marty and he was so happy to hear 470 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 5: from me. He was like, Anna, yeah, Like it's like, 471 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 5: it's like, how are you? What's going on? And you know, 472 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 5: I said are you are you sitting down? Like are 473 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 5: you somewhere quiet? And he said, yeah, yeah, what's going on? 474 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 5: And I said, you know, my father died two days ago. 475 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 5: And we had a whole conversation about how we wanted 476 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 5: to connect with you and reach out to you. And 477 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 5: he interrupted me and said, I bear responsibility here too. 478 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 5: I could have reached out to him just as easily 479 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 5: as he could have reached out to me. And we 480 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 5: talked for a little bit. He shared stories about growing 481 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 5: up in Queen's with my dad, how they went to 482 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 5: football games and tracked mud into my grandma's house with 483 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 5: her sneakers, which annoyed her, and through tears, he thanked me. 484 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 5: He thanked me for letting him know and just for 485 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 5: the conversation. And I gave Marty the gift of knowing 486 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 5: with certainty that his friendship mattered to my dad. And 487 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 5: I started this because I wanted to be a hero 488 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 5: to my dad. I wanted to solve this for him, 489 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 5: but I ended up healing his friend and letting him 490 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 5: know that their friendship was special and meaningful. And I 491 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 5: wrote this story in the book. This is the introduction. 492 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 5: And once after I talked with Marty, that's when I 493 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 5: knew I wanted to write this book. I wanted to 494 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 5: do something that explained why we talk ourselves out of 495 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 5: even though we crave it. And I know that we 496 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 5: all are thinking of that one person that we miss 497 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 5: and wish that we could reach out to and connect 498 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 5: and have a conversation with. And I just want I 499 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 5: want people to have the tools to understand, like, here's 500 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 5: why you haven't been in touch. 501 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: But it's not hopeless, Anna, That story is so beautiful. 502 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: It makes me emotional to think about this idea of 503 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: talking ourselves out of connection and how that can limit 504 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 3: us for our entire lives and we can miss out 505 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 3: on a connection as special as the one that your 506 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 3: father had with Marty. And as you were talking, I 507 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 3: also am thinking about my relationships with some of my 508 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: family members and how intentional we must be, not only 509 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 3: in our friendships, but in our friendships with family members. 510 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 3: Like I have this really unique situation with my brother. 511 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 3: He's my half brother. We didn't grow up together. I 512 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 3: found out that I had a brother when I was 513 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 3: twenty one years old. You can imagine it blew my mind. 514 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 3: I was an only child and there were a lot 515 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 3: of complicated situations that led to that or complicated circumstances, 516 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: and my brother and I we had a falling out 517 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 3: early on into our relationship, like soon after I first 518 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 3: met him. We had a falling out and didn't speak 519 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 3: for like four years, and eventually, thankfully, I talked myself 520 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 3: into connection with him and we have a relationship now 521 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 3: and it has this really beautiful redemptive arc that has 522 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: taught me a lot. And I know that you've written 523 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 3: extensively about your personal relationship, specifically with your sister, and 524 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: how that was a big motivation for your reporting. So 525 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: how did the work that you have done on this 526 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 3: topic empower you to improve that relationship. 527 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 5: I love that you've asked me about this because when 528 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 5: I started reporting on friendships in twenty seventeen, I was 529 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 5: basically estranged from my younger sister. We were really having 530 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 5: a difficult time even getting through a meal, like even 531 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 5: getting through a meal without really bruised feelings and hurt 532 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 5: and just just it was just felt like her it 533 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 5: was pain. And as I learned more about friendship, and 534 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 5: I credit Shasta Nelson, She's like the OG friendship expert, 535 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 5: Shasta taught me that friendships need three things consistency, positivity, 536 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 5: and vulnerability. And I started applying that to my sister. 537 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 5: My sister had just had a kid, and I was 538 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 5: coming to terms with being child free and understanding that, 539 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 5: like I'm it doesn't look like I'm having kids and 540 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 5: I'm adjusting to that, and we just weren't on the 541 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 5: same page. So for consistency, I said, why don't I 542 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 5: come and help you watch your kid every Saturday, let's all? 543 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 5: And then I start coming every Saturday, and like, positivity, 544 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 5: what can I do? So I started bringing her little 545 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 5: gifts like I saw this lip gloss, I thought you'd like, 546 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 5: or here, I know this is your favorite tea, so 547 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 5: I got you a little box. Then the last one 548 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 5: was vulnerability because once I started helping and it was 549 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 5: consistent and I was positive, then she started being like 550 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 5: curious about my life and what are my challenges? And 551 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 5: it was those three things that set us on the 552 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 5: right path and created new habits for us. And I 553 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 5: realized that I was messing up because I had the 554 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 5: volume up on thoughts like why isn't my sister doing 555 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 5: more for me? Why isn't she care? Or why isn't 556 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 5: she happier for me? And I turned the volume down 557 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: on those thoughts, and I turned the volume up on 558 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 5: thoughts like what can I do to help her today? 559 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 5: What can I do to help her? And that was 560 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 5: a game changer. It changed our entire relationship and I 561 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 5: started seeing her for her needs like a person who 562 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 5: just has a kid, as you guys know, is drowning. 563 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 5: You know, one person's not drowning and one person is drowning. 564 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 5: So that's the difference. And my sister, I love her 565 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 5: and she was important to me, and I was at 566 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 5: this moment where I started asking what can I do 567 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 5: to help? What do you need? And honestly, she needed 568 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 5: a nap. So I'm like, great, let me come over. 569 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 5: You can take a nap. Every Saturday. I will watch 570 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 5: your kid and go take a nap and just it 571 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 5: doesn't have to be complicated. It was that simple. But 572 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 5: I was meeting her needs. And that's what we can 573 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 5: do for our friends, is say, what do you need? 574 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 5: I want to help instead of well, what about me? 575 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 5: What you're not reaching out to me? What about being 576 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 5: happy for me? That thinking didn't get me very far. 577 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 5: She made everyone annoyed at me, and I annoyed myself, honestly. 578 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 5: But now I approach my friendships in the same way 579 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 5: of what can I do to make my friends' lives easier? 580 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 5: What do they need? How can I help? And honestly, 581 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 5: they love being my friend. 582 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 4: Now the idea of selfless giving is like the cure 583 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: to everything, and so that's so cool that you're giving 584 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 4: that gift to your friends. You know, you've interviewed probably hundreds, 585 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 4: if not thousands of people at this point on friendship, 586 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 4: written thousands of words on it. What's the biggest change 587 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 4: that you've made to your friendships. 588 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 5: The biggest changes I've started telling them that I love them. 589 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 4: I was. 590 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: I didn't grow up in a very affectionate, like a 591 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 5: verbal affectionate household. My grandma did. My Grandma'd be like, 592 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 5: I love you, But you know, my parents like weren't 593 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 5: as free with it. And it still feels a little 594 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 5: risky to start telling my friends I love them, but 595 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 5: I learned. Actually. I wrote an article for The New 596 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 5: York Times about sibling relationships, and one study said that 597 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,239 Speaker 5: the number one thing that siblings want to hear is 598 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 5: that I love you more. That we always take our 599 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 5: siblings for granted. And I'm like, I noticed the same 600 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 5: thing with my friendships, Like I don't tell them I 601 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 5: love them enough. And for the friends in my JACUZZI 602 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 5: like they have a special position, they are in an 603 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 5: elite tier, and I tell them I love them all 604 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 5: the time. Now I just texted my best friend like 605 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 5: thinking of you, love you, and she's like, love you too, 606 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 5: And there's just no anxiety. Anxiety occurs when there's uncertainty, 607 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 5: and I don't want any uncertainty in my friendships. I 608 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 5: don't want my friends to second guess. You know, is 609 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 5: this friendship important is does it an't even care. I'm like, 610 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 5: fuck that, I care a lot. I'm just gonna let 611 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 5: you know I am in it with you, and I 612 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 5: love you, and I appreciate you, and I love our 613 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 5: friendships for the following reasons. And I've just been more 614 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 5: effusive because I know our friends want to hear it. 615 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 5: I know it means the world to them, and they'll 616 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 5: be more likely to invest in my life because they 617 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 5: see that I'm you know, I'm committed. I'm not going anywhere. 618 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: Anna, you are such a good friend. Anybody who's friends 619 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 3: with you would be so lucky. 620 00:33:59,200 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 5: Thank you. 621 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: That is abundantly clear from our conversation today. 622 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 5: Thank you. I wasn't always like this. I was a 623 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 5: bit of a cheap skate. I'm not gonna lie. I'm 624 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 5: not like some scene. Are you laughing that I like 625 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 5: to called myself a cheapskate. 626 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 4: I love the self awareness. It's amazing because, like we 627 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 4: all have evolutions. I don't think I used to be 628 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 4: a good friend. My mom taught me how to be 629 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 4: a good friend later in life, just by watching her. 630 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 5: I really think our best friendships are ahead of us. 631 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: Like we can do this, we can do this. Thank 632 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: you so much, Anna, Thank you for I. 633 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 5: Love talking with you both. Obviously a geek about friendship, 634 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 5: but I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for having 635 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 5: me on. 636 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 3: Well, You're in such good company because we are geeks 637 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: about friendship too here on the bright Side. 638 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on. 639 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:44,919 Speaker 5: Cheers. 640 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 3: Anna Goldfarb is an author and journalist. Her book Modern Friendship, 641 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: How to Deepen our most valued Connections, can be found 642 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 3: wherever you get your books. 643 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 4: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're back with a 644 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 4: brand new episode with Isolette Fishback, the author of Get 645 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 4: It Done, Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation. 646 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 2: You don't want to miss it. 647 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 3: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect 648 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 3: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram 649 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 3: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and 650 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: feel free to tag us at Simone Boyce and at 651 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 3: Danielle Robe. 652 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 4: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 653 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 654 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 3: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.