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Speaker 1: On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, s I senior

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Speaker 1: writer Michael Rosenberg reads his essay on how authoritarian regimes

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Speaker 1: like China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia use sports for their

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Speaker 1: political benefit. And later, you probably have a coffee fanatic

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Speaker 1: in your life. You might even be that fanatic. But

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Speaker 1: whether or not you drink coffee, you're probably not nearly

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Speaker 1: as into it as Jimmy Butler. SI staffer Rohan not

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Speaker 1: Crinny tells us just how much the Heat Star really

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Speaker 1: loves coffee. But first, our conversation with best selling author

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Speaker 1: Michael Lewis, some twenty years after he began the reporting

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Speaker 1: on Moneyball. It's April. I'm your host, John Gonzalez from

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This is Sports Illustrated Weekly.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to bring in one but three defective

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Speaker 1: players to replace job this bill James book. I am.

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Speaker 1: This is the new direction of the open heads. We

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Speaker 1: are card counts at the Black Jet take. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: turn the odds on the casino. It's been two decades

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Speaker 1: since Michael Lewis started the reporting that would lead to

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Speaker 1: his best selling book, Moneyball. Lewis joins me to discuss

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Speaker 1: the reception and pushback he got from sports executives back then,

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Speaker 1: how analytics have taken over sports as a result, and

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Speaker 1: why the man at the center of Moneyball isn't as

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Speaker 1: thrilled as you might think with the revolution he helped create.

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Speaker 1: Michael Lewis, Welcome to Sports Illustrated Weekly. That's an honor

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Speaker 1: to be here, honor to have you. It has been,

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Speaker 1: as we were discussing before the show, twenty years since

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Speaker 1: you called up Billy Bean and started working on Moneyball.

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Speaker 1: And I would imagine that you knew about Bill James

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Speaker 1: ahead of time. You figured this would make a perfect

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Speaker 1: intersection for your book. Tell us about Bill James and

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Speaker 1: how you found him and why you wanted to write

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Speaker 1: about his particular area of expertise. So, actually, I've never

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Speaker 1: heard of Bill James when I called up Billy Bean.

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Speaker 1: I call up Billy Bean because I really had the question, like,

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Speaker 1: how are you winning games if you have no money?

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Speaker 1: Like why isn't this market more efficient? Like why if

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Speaker 1: the Yankees have four times more money than you, they

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Speaker 1: should buy all the best players and just beat you

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Speaker 1: all the time. I just didn't understand the answer to

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Speaker 1: that question. And when I got to him. He was

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Speaker 1: the one who told me about Bill James and his existence,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, he had all of Bill james early

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Speaker 1: abstracts on his bookshelf. And when he come out of

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Speaker 1: being a player, he had been introduced by Sandy Alderson

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Speaker 1: now runs METS. I think to the work of Bill

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Speaker 1: James and an idea of kind of rethinking baseball from

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Speaker 1: the ground up. So that's how I discovered Bill James,

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Speaker 1: and he Bill James got me through Moneyball. He was

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Speaker 1: the intellectual heart of the thing. He was this guy who,

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Speaker 1: well before he had a personal computer, well before there

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Speaker 1: was a data geek anything anybody was even thinking about data.

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Speaker 1: He was cutting box scores out of new papers and

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Speaker 1: trying to assemble, you know, better statistics for baseball players,

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Speaker 1: and was kind of rethinking the game and started self

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Speaker 1: publishing this book in what nineteen seventies seven, I think

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Speaker 1: it was called The abstruct And you had to mail

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Speaker 1: him a check and he would staple together his mimeograph

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Speaker 1: copy and send it back out. And it's really an

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Speaker 1: interesting moment in intellectual history because you have this this thing, baseball.

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Speaker 1: It's been played the same way forever, and you've got

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Speaker 1: these baseball experts supposedly who were running the teams. And

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Speaker 1: then you've got this guy. He's actually in a He

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Speaker 1: was guarding a stokely Van Camp's pork and bean factory

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Speaker 1: at night, working on this thing in in the middle

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Speaker 1: of Kansas, questioning things like is the stolen base worth it?

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Speaker 1: Or does the runner steal off the picture of the catcher?

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Speaker 1: Or is this guy's batting statistics actually more valuable than

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Speaker 1: this guy's batting statistics? Or where do runs come from?

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Speaker 1: And he was it nord by the inside forever fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: and the inside kept running itself the way it always

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Speaker 1: ran itself until the wall fell down, and his insights

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Speaker 1: in the hands of the next generation data geeks with

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Speaker 1: computers end up overrunning the game. So he he was

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Speaker 1: the intellectual heart of moneyball. But when I wrote the book,

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Speaker 1: I was interested in what he had written, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't really dig too deeply into him personally. And when

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Speaker 1: I came back to this podcast this season, the podcast

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Speaker 1: of Against Rules is about experts, I did think that,

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Speaker 1: like this was an important moment in the history of

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Speaker 1: experts when the person who who was the expert wasn't

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Speaker 1: the person who played the game, who had the experience

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Speaker 1: of the thing. It was this intellectual who was thinking

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Speaker 1: about it from the outside, and I want to go

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Speaker 1: back and find just talk to him about how it

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Speaker 1: had happened in the first place. So that's how he

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Speaker 1: walks into the podcast. But in many ways he's more

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Speaker 1: interesting than the people came that came after him. He

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Speaker 1: sees the world in a messier way than the data

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Speaker 1: geeks who now run the sports world, and he is

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Speaker 1: someone ambivalent about the revolution that he that he created. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm really interested in that part. And you know it's

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Speaker 1: amazing to me, first just as a journalist that you know,

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Speaker 1: you call it Billy Bean and you talked to him,

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Speaker 1: and he goes, oh, yeah, you should talk to this guy,

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Speaker 1: Bill James, because how fortuitous, Like that's what we all

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Speaker 1: dream about. You had him, as you mentioned on your

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Speaker 1: podcast Against the Rules, and he said to you that

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Speaker 1: he once looked at a baseball diamond and what he

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Speaker 1: saw was a field of ignorance. And he was talking

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Speaker 1: about baseball, but he could have been talking about football

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Speaker 1: or soccer or basketball, and that kind of language. That

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Speaker 1: kind of I look at this in a different way

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Speaker 1: than the way that you look at this because you're

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Speaker 1: not really thinking about it, I would imagine creates some

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Speaker 1: enemies for him. No. Yes, though he's a hard person

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Speaker 1: to dislike because his basic pose is I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You don't know either, and I don't know that I'm

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Speaker 1: open to the possibility there are things I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's a deep humility about him, even though it feels

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Speaker 1: like an arrogance to come at the game that you

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Speaker 1: didn't ever play and tell everybody that how they're thinking

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Speaker 1: about it is wrong. He was identifying logical inconsistencies, but

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Speaker 1: always open to the possibility that, like, he's not right,

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Speaker 1: he's not sure. The movement he created, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it was a war when the book came out. There's

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Speaker 1: only I think one other book in my career that

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Speaker 1: triggered a firestorm the way Moneyball triggered a firestorm, and

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Speaker 1: that was Flashboys. And that was because Flashboys was trying

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Speaker 1: to take billions of dollars away from Wall Street people,

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Speaker 1: and you don't take money away from Ball Street people

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Speaker 1: without a huge fight. But Moneyball, I didn't completely anticipate

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Speaker 1: this being the kind of the vehicle for popularizing Bill

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Speaker 1: James type thinking and said and It was effectively saying

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Speaker 1: to the rest of baseball that these guys kind of

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Speaker 1: know what they're doing and you kind of don't, because

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Speaker 1: they're actually paying attention to this thinking that's been going

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Speaker 1: on outside the game for the last fifteen years. Deeply

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Speaker 1: offended a lot of people in baseball. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: can remember when the book came out, there was an

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Speaker 1: emergency meeting of baseball scouts in New Orleans devoted to

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Speaker 1: the book and how they were going to argue back

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Speaker 1: against the book because their jobs were risking. They weren't wrong,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there really was a changing of the guard

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Speaker 1: and the people. The big thing that happened and the

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Speaker 1: only reason the book kind of gained real traction in

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Speaker 1: the game, I think is that my reader base. Before that,

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Speaker 1: a lot of Wall Street people read Red Liars Poker,

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Speaker 1: and this thing landed in the lapse of either the

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Speaker 1: kind of people who own baseball teams or the kind

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Speaker 1: of people who were friends and financial advisors of the

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Speaker 1: people who own baseball teams. And I know there were

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Speaker 1: several cases where someone handed it an owner of the

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Speaker 1: book and said, your guys who are running your team

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Speaker 1: are wasting your money. Read this and it was at

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Speaker 1: the owner level when they came down into the organization

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Speaker 1: and said, what are you doing? This makes total sense,

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Speaker 1: and what these guys in Oakland are doing makes total sense,

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Speaker 1: and I want to do that. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: do whatever you've been doing is it doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 1: And um, that infuriated the management class in baseball, and

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Speaker 1: there was it was a war. I mean because the

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Speaker 1: management class and the scouting class they're the sources for

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Speaker 1: sports journalists. I mean, their friends are the daily baseball writers.

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Speaker 1: So the baseball writers were by extension not terribly happy.

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Speaker 1: And there was this other thing. There was other undercurrent

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Speaker 1: of the response. When I first went in to see

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Speaker 1: Billy Bean and I said, asked him this question, how

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Speaker 1: are you competing? Like what's going on here? If the

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Speaker 1: market's efficient, you should not be able to win. He said, well,

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Speaker 1: the market is not efficient, and he said, no one's

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Speaker 1: asked me the question you just asked me. And I

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Speaker 1: spend my life thinking of in those terms, like a

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Speaker 1: Wall Street trader, like how do I find value? How

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Speaker 1: do I measure the value of the players. I'm spending

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Speaker 1: all my time thinking about money and the value of

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Speaker 1: the players. But sports journalism isn't all that interested in

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Speaker 1: the subject. So there was this feeling that there was

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Speaker 1: this wonderful material that had gone neglected by traditional sports journalists,

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Speaker 1: and it was offensive that this person who was an

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Speaker 1: outsider walked in and sort of plucked the material. So

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Speaker 1: there was I got some grief for that reason. But

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Speaker 1: it did trigger this war, and the war was the

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Speaker 1: battle lines was that. You know, it was a little overstated.

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Speaker 1: But on the one hand, you had these data geeks

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Speaker 1: with computers who never played the game, and another hand,

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Speaker 1: you had the former minor leaguer who thought that he

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Speaker 1: was working his way up through the scouting department to

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Speaker 1: being an assistant GM to hoping run a team one day.

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Speaker 1: And those two people did not always see eye to eye. Okay,

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Speaker 1: people who run ball clubs that they think in terms

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Speaker 1: of buying players, your goal shouldn't be to buy players.

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Speaker 1: Your goal should be to buy winds, and in order

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Speaker 1: to buy wins, you need to buy runs. Baseball thinking

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Speaker 1: is medieval. They are asking all the wrong questions. And

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Speaker 1: if I say it to anybody, I'm I'm ostracized. I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm a leverer. So on your podcast when you had

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Speaker 1: Bill James on you guys had this great exchange that

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Speaker 1: perfectly framed that where you said to him people running

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Speaker 1: baseball at the time weren't thinking, and Bill James replied, well,

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Speaker 1: why weren't they thinking because they thought they knew right,

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Speaker 1: which was just I thought that was so perfect. And

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Speaker 1: now twenty years on, math is one out, Michael. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the math is here to say it's not going anywhere,

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Speaker 1: but that war that you mentioned is still being even

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Speaker 1: though it's been fought and one by the people who

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Speaker 1: have adopted and embraced the math, there's still that stuck

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Speaker 1: dug in recalcitrant faction to think that they can still

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Speaker 1: fight and win this war even though the war is over.

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Speaker 1: And it's that jocks and nerds culture are line like

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Speaker 1: you have the inside the NBA guys right like Shack

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Speaker 1: and Charles Barkley, Shacks saying that there needs to be

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Speaker 1: more post ops or Charles Barkley saying things like jump

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Speaker 1: shooting teams can't win the NBA title back before the

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Speaker 1: Golden State Warriors did it, which makes them look like

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Speaker 1: what they are like. They haven't paid attention to this movement,

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Speaker 1: But I'm wondering what you and also Bill James thinks

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Speaker 1: about this that we've got this era of sports now

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Speaker 1: that is hyper reliant on the numbers. It's gone very

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Speaker 1: much the other way. Yeah, in a way that really

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Speaker 1: irritates Bill James, I think, because of course, well partly

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Speaker 1: because I mean, it irritated him back in the day.

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Speaker 1: He walks away from his self published book after it's

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Speaker 1: exploded and become a real published, best selling phenomenon in

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Speaker 1: the mid eighties or late eighties, because he said people

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Speaker 1: were fetishizing the numbers. The numbers were never the point.

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Speaker 1: The point was understanding, and people started throwing around numbers

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Speaker 1: without a whole lot of meaning attached. And you see,

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Speaker 1: you know you do here now, announcers. It's just like

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Speaker 1: a blizzard of numbers. And some of the means something

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Speaker 1: and some of them don't. And it's like numbers are

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Speaker 1: a smart way to talk about sports, and that's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily true. So James himself, he says, it's kind of funny.

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Speaker 1: In his last book, his Last Abstract, he writes a

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Speaker 1: long letter to the reader that basically says, I hate you.

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Speaker 1: I'm stopping writing this book because I found increasingly that

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Speaker 1: I don't like my readers and the letters I'm getting

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Speaker 1: causing me to dislike you even more, so I don't

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Speaker 1: want to write for you anymore. And what he was

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Speaker 1: objecting to was people thinking that he had all the

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Speaker 1: answers and they had all the answers, when really what

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Speaker 1: he had his questions, and he wanted to preserve the

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Speaker 1: space of uncertainty of like, you know, let's figure more

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Speaker 1: stuff out. And he felt like he was increasingly surrounded

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Speaker 1: by kind of smart asses who thought they knew everything,

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Speaker 1: and so he's not a really good example of one

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Speaker 1: side of this war. And in fact, when he goes

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Speaker 1: to work, he ends up being hired by the Boston

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Speaker 1: Red Sox after the Boston Socks geekify themselves, and he

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Speaker 1: finds the people he gets along with the most naturally

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Speaker 1: are the Scouts, the old Scouts, And he took him

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Speaker 1: a while to figure out why that was. But part

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Speaker 1: of it was that, he says, a lot of those

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Speaker 1: Scouts do they didn't know they themselves had a kind

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Speaker 1: of humility about them because they made They had so

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Speaker 1: many examples of like the betting on a guy and

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Speaker 1: he didn't work out, or missing a guy who did

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Speaker 1: work out. But the current state of things is curious

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Speaker 1: because before when the experts were the people who played

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Speaker 1: were insiders. The wall they created between themselves and the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world the outsiders was you never played.

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Speaker 1: The wall that the insiders create now is you're not smart.

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Speaker 1: It's more complicated than you would understand, and the wall

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Speaker 1: is sort of offensive. Um, there was a war the

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Speaker 1: math people won. There's still these holdouts, but the holdout

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Speaker 1: sirt in baseball. They're not a lot holdouts. There's not

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Speaker 1: a lot of people will say, oh, yeah, the dad.

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Speaker 1: But what people will say that they've made the game boring,

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Speaker 1: and that's not a false charge. But there a lot

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Speaker 1: of people on TV who go on TV and say

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Speaker 1: that teams would be better off if they just got

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Speaker 1: rid of all this sophisticated data analysis. Yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 1: The holdouts tend to be sort of the older players

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Speaker 1: who did play, who still rely on that I played,

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Speaker 1: you didn't. I know you don't, which is comical now,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I would guess an aging section of

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Speaker 1: fans of different sports. I'm wondering when you started writing

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Speaker 1: this book if you ever thought we'd get to this

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Speaker 1: spot where not only did the math went out, but

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Speaker 1: it's so radically altered, not just baseball but basketball. I

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Speaker 1: mean basketball now is you're getting to the rim, or

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Speaker 1: you're shooting threes, and everything in between is verboten. So

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you expected it to go to this

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Speaker 1: kind of extreme. I thought the book was going to

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Speaker 1: have a different effect. I thought the book was going

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Speaker 1: to cause people to rethink how they valued people in

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Speaker 1: some places that it I wasn't really thinking of, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is going to have a big effect on baseball.

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Speaker 1: I guess I did think that, look, this is so

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Speaker 1: obviously a superior way to run a baseball team that

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Speaker 1: other people are certainly going to adopt it. But I

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Speaker 1: didn't follow through it through to its natural conclusion where

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Speaker 1: that would leave the game and then it would slow

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Speaker 1: down the game and make it a game of strikeouts,

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Speaker 1: walks and home runs. And and it's not necessarily true

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Speaker 1: that the geekification, the intellectualization are the smarter playing of

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Speaker 1: the games is necessarily more boring. True, and baseball, it

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Speaker 1: just turns out the efficient strategy given the game is

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Speaker 1: a duller strategy. Basketball, I think is much more exciting

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Speaker 1: because people figured out the value of the three porch shot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a much more fun game to watch.

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Speaker 1: Mid rain Jumper is a sort of the most boring

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Speaker 1: thing on the court and and football. It's led to

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Speaker 1: the opening up of the game, you know, the passing

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Speaker 1: game over the running game. The passing game is much

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Speaker 1: more fun to watch. So it isn't that the intellectuals

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Speaker 1: necessarily make the game more boring and based. It's just

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Speaker 1: in baseball it so happens, that is true. But I

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Speaker 1: know the answer to your question. I did not see

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Speaker 1: coming great changes in the way the game was played.

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Speaker 1: Especially I didn't find myself wondering what the frontiers were

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Speaker 1: because way back then it was also I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was pretty rude metry stuff. They were like people thought

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Speaker 1: r B I s were a really valuable statists, and

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Speaker 1: people weren't paying attention on base percentage and that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff. I did wonder once the inefficiency got beaten

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Speaker 1: out of the game by if everybody was kind of

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Speaker 1: doing what the Oakland a's were doing, where an Oakland

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Speaker 1: is like outfit would get an edge And still find

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Speaker 1: myself wondering a bit because I was wondering, I didn't

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Speaker 1: the only guilty sensation I felt when I was writing

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Speaker 1: the book was after I published this. Billy Bean's done that,

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Speaker 1: as I probably says, he's no longer going to have

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Speaker 1: an edge, where is he going to find the edge?

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Speaker 1: So anyway then answers, I didn't really see the game

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Speaker 1: changing the way it's changed. I was also struck in

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Speaker 1: your conversation with Bill James, when you guys were talking

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Speaker 1: about I mean again, he's one of the godfathers of

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Speaker 1: this movement, and yet there are considerable parts of it

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Speaker 1: that he does not like. Where you had brought up

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Speaker 1: to him different statistics like war wins above replacement, and

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Speaker 1: he's not on board with that particular stat And I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if this is, you know, Frankenstein looking at his

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Speaker 1: monster and wondering what have I done. I think there

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Speaker 1: is a little bit of that. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of that, and there's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: another thing. And the other thing is where all this

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Speaker 1: comes from. Why you're a college graduate. Why you're not

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Speaker 1: getting a job or proper job that you could yet

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Speaker 1: pays you a living wage. Why are you guarding pork

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Speaker 1: and beans at night and trying to write about baseball.

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Speaker 1: He's pretty clear about the psychological origins of his obsession

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Speaker 1: with it, and it really is an obsession. His mother

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Speaker 1: died when he was four, his father was badly injured

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Speaker 1: in an accident. He he was basically kind of orphaned

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Speaker 1: and left to defend for himself with an older sister

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Speaker 1: who was just a couple of years older. He was

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Speaker 1: pretty socially isolated. He felt like he just had this

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Speaker 1: sister and they were together all the time, hi and

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Speaker 1: there each other's other half. And he felt a need

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Speaker 1: to control and understand the world because the world seems

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Speaker 1: senseless to him, and he turned to baseball as a

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Speaker 1: environment that was simple enough that you could completely understand

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Speaker 1: it and makes sense of it. So that's the original

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Speaker 1: impulse that gets him into kind of making a new

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Speaker 1: kind of sense of this old game. And I think

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Speaker 1: what bothers him is not just like the individual statistics

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Speaker 1: or the quantification of everything, though those things do bother him.

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Speaker 1: I think the real thing that bothers him is the

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Speaker 1: sense that the false sense that other people have that

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Speaker 1: in this environment has been fully understood and there's nothing

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Speaker 1: left there that it's been deforested. Because I think he

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Speaker 1: gets a great deal of solace just from the exercise

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Speaker 1: of making new sense of the thing, and he's decided.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's really a curious predisposition of personality trait

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Speaker 1: that up until the age of I don't know, forty,

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Speaker 1: he's really interested in almost nothing but baseball. Everything he's

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Speaker 1: done in his life is directed towards making more sense

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Speaker 1: of baseball. The idea that's sort of like, all right,

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Speaker 1: people with spreadsheets of advanced abilities to analyze data have

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Speaker 1: come through and completely eliminated the mystery and the the

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Speaker 1: ability to order this world. Further, I think leaves him cold.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't like it. So you do find he's this

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Speaker 1: revolutionary who doesn't really like the revolution he created, which

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Speaker 1: is not that unusual little thing. Revolution is often don't

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Speaker 1: like it with the revolution creates not unusual. Still fascinating though,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I was curious when I had asked

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Speaker 1: you about the blowback for him, and we had spent

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Speaker 1: some time talking about the culture war and the jocks

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Speaker 1: versus nerds component. I'm also interested, though, in any potential

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Speaker 1: blowback for you, because you did help literally author this movement, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm wondering what kind of feedback you've got

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Speaker 1: in the last twenty years since you called up Billy

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Speaker 1: Being the first time, and he put you onto this

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Speaker 1: story that has become this phenomenon. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: pretty funny in the beginning because sports people generally don't

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Speaker 1: really acknowledge the existence of the author. Their relationship to

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Speaker 1: books is usually, oh, that's a Charles Barklay's memoir. That

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Speaker 1: that that that they they assumed that the book is

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Speaker 1: basically the point of view someone else. If there's someone

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Speaker 1: putting the words on the page, they're not significant. It's

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Speaker 1: the it's the significant thing is the sports figure who

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Speaker 1: it's about. So in the very beginning and for a while,

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Speaker 1: I had this lovely situation where all the people in

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Speaker 1: baseball who were piste about the book assumed Billy Being

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Speaker 1: had basically written it, and so they were pissed at him.

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Speaker 1: So Billy got directly. Mostly I wasn't worth attacking. I

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Speaker 1: was this gnat from this other world, right, so that

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Speaker 1: I was not an obvious target except for from a

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Speaker 1: couple of journalists, but from the people in baseball, and

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Speaker 1: they were like angry at Billy, and I am eternally

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Speaker 1: grateful Libility Being did not throw me under the bus,

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Speaker 1: because he really could have. He could have just said

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Speaker 1: like I didn't have any control over that. The guy

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Speaker 1: didn't know what he was talking about. I didn't say

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Speaker 1: any of that. He could said that, he didn't say

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Speaker 1: anything like that, and so he took the heat. So

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Speaker 1: I didn't get it directly. What I got instead was

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Speaker 1: really gratifying. I got essentially a hall pass to wander

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Speaker 1: around which I still have to wander around professional sports

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Speaker 1: and ask people questions because people who weren't immediately threatened

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Speaker 1: were interested in the thing. So it led to I mean,

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Speaker 1: it led to the blindside. It led to long pieces

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Speaker 1: about basketball. It will still lead to other things. I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about doing something on Indian cricket now. So it's

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00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 1: given me a pass to go and learn about other sports,

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Speaker 1: and people will take the time with me to teach

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Speaker 1: me because they were interested in the book. And I

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Speaker 1: got very little in the way of obnoxious blowback from

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Speaker 1: insiders directed at me personally. It's been twenty years since

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Speaker 1: you talked to Billy Bean about this. It was a

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Speaker 1: remarkable book then it continues to have an impact on

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Speaker 1: sports at large two decades later. Always read him and

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Speaker 1: listen to him and check out his podcast on experts

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Speaker 1: called Against the rules he leads the league and podcast

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Speaker 1: guests above replacement Michael Lewis, thank you for this, Thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me after a break. How sports are often

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Speaker 1: used for political benefit. When the Winter Olympics were recently

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Speaker 1: held in Beijing, a lot of people spoke out against

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Speaker 1: the oppressive Chinese government's human rights abuses. We did an

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Speaker 1: entire segment about it on this very show, And when

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Speaker 1: the World Cup is held in Qatar later this year,

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Speaker 1: you'll hear the same sentiments expressed about that government's terrible violations.

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Speaker 1: But despite the vocal opposite and too certain authoritarian regimes,

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Speaker 1: sports events are still held in those countries, which is

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Speaker 1: exactly what those governments want in the first place. Sports

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Speaker 1: can be manipulated for their political benefit, and that's nothing

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Speaker 1: new either. Here's SI senior writer Michael Rosenberg with his

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Speaker 1: essay on sports washing. Sports washing is everywhere, but it's

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Speaker 1: not new. Regimes have been using sports to burnish their

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Speaker 1: images or distract from their problematic behavior for centuries. Competitive

431
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: sports are built on the concept of fair play, which

432
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 1: helps explain why so many oppressive regimes see value in games.

433
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: Any form of good, wholesome fund can seem like it

434
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: is presented by good, wholesome people, even when the facts

435
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: say otherwise. China, with its appalling human rights record, in

436
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: opposition to an independent Taiwan, hosted the recent Winter Olympics

437
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 1: with the strategically peaceful slogan Together for a Shared Future.

438
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: One of the stars of those games was Eileen Goo,

439
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: a Kelly, Alifornia born skier who chose to compete for

440
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: her mother's homeland of China, implicitly embracing the government of

441
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: China rather than the United States. Whether or not that

442
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: was her intent, Good declined to say whether she renounced

443
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: her US citizenship to gain a Chinese passport, as Chinese

444
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: law requires, but she did gush about quote the ability

445
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: of sport to bridge the gap and to be a

446
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: force for unity. That was music to the ears of

447
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: the Chinese government and those of the Saudi government as well.

448
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia has long attempted to lowre star golfers two

449
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: events there with large financial guarantees, using the players and

450
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: sports to present a benign image of the country, and

451
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: they've succeeded. Two time Master's champion Bubba Watson recently praised

452
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: their efforts to support women's golf completely ignoring the fact

453
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: that until last summer, woman needed permission from a male

454
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: guardian to live alone. The saudiast to use Phil Michelson's

455
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: words are scary to get involved with, Yet he is

456
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: involved anyway. Michelson, the famous golfer, his spearhead of the

457
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: Saudi funded effort to create a world golf tour for

458
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: the game's elite, a much larger effort to cleanse the

459
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: country's image. Most disturbing is that Michelson knows exactly why

460
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: and how he is being used sports washing. Michelson called

461
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: it in an interview with writer Alan Shipnik of The

462
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: fire Pit Collective for ship Nick's upcoming book Phil, The

463
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: Rip Roaring and Unauthorized Biography of Golf's most colorful superstar.

464
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: Sports washing sports washing sports washing. Sports washing is the

465
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: use of sports to present a sanitized, friendlier version of

466
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: a political regime or operation. Michelson later apologized for using

467
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: words that did not reflect quote his true feelings, but

468
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: that apology was just another form of sports washing. He

469
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: should think people funding the new tour are scary because

470
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: they are. They are determined to succeed too. They just

471
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: announced the schedule that includes events in the United states

472
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: the term sportswashing is relatively new, but the practice is

473
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: almost as old as sports. Paul Christensen, a professor of

474
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: ancient Greek history at Dartmouth, says it goes all the

475
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: way back to the original Olympics. Christensen tells this story

476
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: there's a long war between Athens and Sparta, and Athens

477
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: looks like it's getting its ass handed to it. They're

478
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: getting the crap beating out of them, and everyone thinks

479
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: they're down and out. And so an Athenian politician named

480
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: Alcibiades comes to the Olympic Games and four sixteen BC,

481
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: right in the middle of the war, when things are

482
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: going bad for Athens, and Alcibiades enters several chariot teams

483
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: into the four horse chariot race and wins first, second,

484
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: and either third or fourth place. And that's like an

485
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: F one racing team. It was insanely expensive, and they

486
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: all said to him at home, you're crazy. We don't

487
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: have those kinds of resources. And he's like, listen, everyone

488
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: thought we were down and out. I win all these

489
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: events at Olympia, and now everyone in the Greek world

490
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: thinks that we're just fine, and they're terrified of US.

491
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 1: It was a straight up geopolitical maneuver. Modern sports. Washington

492
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: can take many forms. Counter wants the world to see

493
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: it as the host of the two men's World Cup,

494
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: not a country where migrant workers are exploited, including for

495
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: that competition. Thousands of workers have died over the last

496
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: decade building the World Cup infrastructure. Former Chinese Communist Party

497
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: leader Maud s Tong once banned golf, calling it quote

498
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: a sport for millionaires, but the game has since become

499
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: both legal and popular in China, leading to propaganda that

500
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: golf was actually invented there instead of in Scotland. If

501
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: you were to listen to the Chinese Communist Party, you'd

502
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: believe that everything that happens in China started in China

503
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: and belongs to China. If you think that kind of

504
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: silly nationalistic table would never fly in the US, I

505
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: have two words for you, Abner double Day. Millions of

506
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: American kids have grown up believing Double Day invented baseball,

507
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: a myth that was created a century ago to distance

508
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: the national pastime from its foreign antecedents cricket and rounders.

509
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: It's a proven fact that the game now designated baseball

510
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: is of modern and purely American origin, insisted one of

511
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: the game's first power brokers, Albert G. Spalding, in his

512
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: nineteen eleven books America's National Game. There is a hint

513
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: of sportswashing every time a US president throws out a

514
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: first pitch or a college president talks about football as

515
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: the quote front porch of a university. Sports seem like

516
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: they aren't political, which is precisely why they are so

517
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: often used for political purposes. The drama seduces us, and

518
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: our passions distract us, and so we swallow whatever government

519
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: officials feed us without even realizing it. After Russian invaded Ukraine,

520
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: the International Olympic Committee in FIFA move to ban both

521
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: Russia and its ally Belarus from competition. That might not

522
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: seem like much of a penalty for Russia's atrocities in Ukraine,

523
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: but don't think of it as a punishment. Think of

524
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: it as taking away a weapon. Russian President of Vladimir

525
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: Putin has long used sports to shape Russia's image as

526
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: both powerful and reasonable. Shortly after delivering a famously blistering

527
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: anti West speech in Munich in two thousand seven, Putin

528
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: successfully lobby the IOC to award the two thousand fourteen

529
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: Winter Olympics to sociate a one two punch that made

530
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: Russia seem like it and its leaders views belonged on

531
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: the world stage. Russia kept using sports to look strong,

532
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: instituting a state sponsored doping program to increase the country's

533
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: metal count and friendly. Putin opened the two thousand eighteen

534
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: Men's World Cup by welcoming spectators and journalists to quote open, hospitable,

535
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: friendly Russia. Earlier this year, Putin attended the Winter Olympics

536
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: opening ceremony and appeared to fake falling asleep as the

537
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: Ukrainian delegation entered the stadium. Then Putin invaded Ukraine shortly

538
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: after the games ended. The modern Olympics, like the ancient ones,

539
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: have often been a political tool. When Nazi Germany hosted

540
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: the ninety six Summer Olympics, it saw the event as

541
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: a pep rally for the Aryan race. The game's slogan

542
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: was quote, I call the youth of the world. Adolf

543
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: Hitler built the Olympius Stadion in Berlin, which supposedly seated

544
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people, and the Nazis paid for propaganda's

545
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: film maker Lenny reef install to make a documentary about

546
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: the Olympics. The Nazis also took down signs banning Jews

547
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: from public places in an effort to seem well, open, hospitable,

548
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: and friendly. People take sports super seriously. Christisen says, and

549
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: as soon as people do that, you can leverage it

550
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: for geopolitical purposes. My students are like, everyone's too cynical

551
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: for it to work now. Of course it works. It

552
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: always works. In some ways, it works better now because

553
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: you're so bombarded by it all the time that you

554
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 1: can't escape from it. A pr tactic that has been

555
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: successful for more than two thousand years is probably not

556
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: going away anytime soon. But sports fans and journalists can

557
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: at least call sports washing what it is, and athletes

558
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: should show some self respect when tyrants come calling. There

559
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: are plenty of ways to host games without being part

560
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: of such a dirty one. That was Michael Rosenberg reading

561
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: his piece. Sports washing is everywhere, but it's not new.

562
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: We'll link to it in our show notes. After a

563
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: break we tell you just how much Jimmy Butler really

564
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: loves coffee. I love coffee. I make a pot first

565
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: thing in the morning after walking the dogs. And then

566
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: I drink another cup or a mid afternoon pick me up.

567
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: There's hardly a day that goes by that I don't

568
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: have some. But as much as I love coffee, I'm

569
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: not consumed by it, at least not to the same

570
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: degree as Heat star Jimmy Butler. During the Bubble playoffs,

571
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: Butler turned his obsession with coffee into a side hustle

572
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: that's grown into a pretty impressive business. SI staffer Rohan

573
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: not Karney joins me to explain how Butler drinks an

574
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: outrageous amount of coffee every day and how that side

575
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: hustle began by him overcharging his NBA peers. All right, Rohan,

576
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: when I saw this story, I couldn't wait to read it.

577
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: It was fun, it was unexpected, it was dumb and

578
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: ways that I also loved. How did you come up

579
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: with this idea? So I have developed somewhat of a

580
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: relationship with people close to Jimmy Butler, and for the

581
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: longest time they're like, you know, Jimmy wants to do

582
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: coffee stuff. Jimmy always wants to coffee stuff. They frankly

583
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: don't really like if I pitched something really basketball heavy

584
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: to them. This was just a perfect confluence of events.

585
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler was doing a coffee pop up at the

586
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: Miami Open in Miami. I got invited to go, but

587
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: I was in Los Angeles, so I missed it, and

588
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: I was really bummed. They're like, do you still want

589
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: to talk to him about coffee? I've been talking about

590
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: to me, it's fun to do an interview that's just

591
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: really narrow as opposed to broad and scope. I don't

592
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: want to ask him about oh like, tell me about

593
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: how you feel about the heats, chances? This here? What's

594
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: he gonna You know? I wanted to do something that

595
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,239
Speaker 1: was really narrow and scope, and it just happened that

596
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: he loves talking about coffee. He really wanted to talk

597
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 1: about this pop up. But I was like, I'm going

598
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: to get all the coffee questions that I've been wanting

599
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: to ask him off my chest. This thing really mushroomed

600
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: for him, right, I mean, because it's one thing to

601
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: love coffee, and it's another to become known outside of

602
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: basketball for coffee. Where you're doing this pop up at

603
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: the Miami Open and you know you've got your own

604
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: brand of coffee. Give us the backstory, the origin, story

605
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: for Jimmy's coffee career. Yeah, I think as many people know,

606
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: and if you don't, it kind of started when he

607
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: was in the NBA bubble. His trainer actually asked him.

608
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: I was like, when did you first get into coffee?

609
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: His trainer suggested it to him as something that could

610
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: maybe help performance wise, and I think that piques Jimmy's interest.

611
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: You know, even before the bubble, He's someone who would

612
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: love to travel, and he told me my favorite thing

613
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: to do in traveling go to local coffee shops, talk

614
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: to Barissa's, talk to people there. I'm just going there

615
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: and learn. He just got really really really good pe

616
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: We're trying to make the best coffee, but there is

617
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: I want to support everybody. I think he genuinely enjoys

618
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: talking to strangers in coffee shops, as kind of goofy

619
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: as that sounds. When he got to the bubble, there

620
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: weren't good coffee options. He started bringing himself selling it

621
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 1: for a lot of money. You know, Big Face money

622
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: comes from the idea that he was going to collect

623
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: big bills for a hundred dollar bills. Right. Big Face

624
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: Coffee is the name of his coffee company. Correct, correct

625
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: one of the things I love in your story is

626
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: when you say that he was going to collect big

627
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: face money. He's basically price gouging his captive audience, right

628
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: is capolutely yes, he I mean he knows what their

629
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: per deems are, he knows what everyone's contracts is. Like, Yeah,

630
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: when he was in the bubble, is absolutely a price

631
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: gouging skime. I believe the small medium in large sizes

632
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: all costs twenty dollars, no matter the drinking cosmylls. I

633
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: interview Jimmy Butther coming right out of the bubble even then,

634
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: he was like, I've been working on my latte are

635
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: all summer. He's like, I wish I could take a

636
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: year off just to open up a coffee shop, Like

637
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: this has been something that's been in his mind for years.

638
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: Are you a coffee aficionado because I love coffee. I

639
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: don't know if i'd say full blown aficionado, because there's

640
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: definitely people who are more knowledgeable than me. I love coffee.

641
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: I I probably even love learning about coffee even more

642
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: so than drinking it. Like I will have a cup

643
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 1: of cold brew a day, but I love learning how

644
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: to make different espresso drinks. I've been considering buying an

645
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: espresso machine, so I was. I think I was knowledgeable

646
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 1: enough that I could go back and forth with Jimmy

647
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: on it a bit. All right, So you're conversed in coffee,

648
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: you're talking to him about this. I'm curious about the

649
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: beans that he uses, where he say, get them? What

650
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: kind of selection is he going through? I would imagine

651
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: that that's an extensive process for him. I mean, so

652
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 1: he's selling beans now, he's in fact a coffee bean purveyor.

653
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: And if you go on I don't want to plug it,

654
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: but honestly, if you go in Big Face Coffee dot com,

655
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: which I've been curious, his beans are expensive. I think

656
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: it's up to seventy dollars for a five ounce can

657
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: of beans. I mean we're talking single origins stuff. It's

658
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: clearly you know he's sourcing things from Brazil, South America.

659
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: I asked his trainer what Jimmy's favorite coffee bean is.

660
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 1: He mentioned Brazil. I mean, another reason he loves Brazil

661
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: is because of his good buddy, neymar and so he's

662
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: grown to like Brazilian coffee as well. But he's definitely

663
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: very serious about sourcing his beans. I assume that s

664
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: I will let us expense that. So we're gonna just

665
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: go ahead and order some of that seventy coffee. It's research.

666
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: It's important. Can I perform like Jimmy Butler if I

667
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: drink his coffee? There's only one way to find out, Right,

668
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: We're gonna find out. But I'm I'm curious as well.

669
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: So he he starts this in the bubble. You know,

670
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: he's charging his teammates and other people exorbitant amounts, and

671
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 1: it blows up into big Face Coffee Company, and I'm wondering,

672
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: did he expect his side hustle to get this big

673
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: to the point where as you said, he's charging seventy

674
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: dollars for tiny cans of coffee beans. You know, that's

675
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: actually a really good question, John, because there's a fine

676
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: line between commitment to the bit and passion, I guess,

677
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Butler is incredible at kind of straddling that

678
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: line in my opinion, where you know what I mean,

679
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: if you're about coffee, like he just he just like

680
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: keeps folding in jokes and it's just kind of keeping

681
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: you off balance. He told me about his his morning

682
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: coffee routine. He mentioned he doesn't make any coffee for

683
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: his daughter, but he's like, but I am trying to

684
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: find a way to get coffee to kids, because at home,

685
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: the first thing you do when we wake up is

686
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: have coffee with whoever else is up in the household.

687
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: Besides my daughter, she can't have coffee. She's own too,

688
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: But we're finding out a way to bring coffee two

689
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: kids as well. Um, and it's just entirely too much

690
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: coffee throughout the day if I'm at home, just because

691
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: that's what we really like to do, you know. I

692
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: asked him about if he likes other coffee flavored things.

693
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: He's like, I love everything coffee flavored. I want coffee

694
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: colored shoelaces. I think coffee anything is great. Coffee colored clothing,

695
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: coffee colored shoelaces, coffee flavoring dog for ever. In the

696
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: case when it be coffee is just phenomenally every way

697
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: you can do. I think that there's a part of

698
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: him that's just kind of thinks it's funny maybe how

699
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: big this can get. But I also think he is

700
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: a very genuine passion for coffee. He's leading into it.

701
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: I love that about Jimmy Butler. I I also loved

702
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: something that you tweeted in conjunction with your story where

703
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: you said that after learning about Jimmy Butler's coffee intake,

704
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: you were worried about Jimmy Butler's coffee intake. So tell

705
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: us about his daily coffee routine. Okay, this was like humbling,

706
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: because you know, I've been told all he drinks seven

707
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: to ten cups a day, and I'm like, that's not

708
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: even possible, Like how does he find the time to

709
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: do that? And he laid it out all for me,

710
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: step by step. If I want the road always, UM,

711
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: go have breakfast with my physical performance guy named Almando. Um,

712
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: we'll have breakfast, will have coffee over breakfast, and then

713
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: immediately after breakfast, UM, we go sit down and just

714
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: talk about life over a cup of coffee at some

715
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: coffee shop wherever we're at. And then I'll go back

716
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: to the room. I have my big face travel kid.

717
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: I'll make a cup there, have lunch team meeting, come

718
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: back another cup, YadA, YadA, YadA, do something else, and

719
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: then UM, me and Armando leave early for the game.

720
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: We'll go get some food and then we'll have another

721
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: cup and we'll find another cafe to go, grab call

722
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: for to go, and then go hoop. The two things

723
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: we know about Jimmy Butler He likes to wake up

724
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: really early in the morning for his workouts, and he

725
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 1: drinks a ton of coffee. I kind of like wanted

726
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: to very lightly suggest to him, like, hey, man, have

727
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: you thought about sleeping nine hours a day? Maybe that

728
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: would be really good for your performance as well. He

729
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: also claims I need to Texas trainer and get the

730
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: exact quote. He was like, I don't want to Butcher,

731
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: so I'm not gonna tell it to you. But my

732
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: trainer is some kind of word play, and he's like,

733
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: coffee doesn't actually wake you up. I don't know about

734
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: the science behind that. That's what he's claiming. So apparently

735
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: he's able to leap well, but his coffee intake is

736
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: off the chart. Yeah, you mentioned nap and sleep and

737
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: you say he sleeps well. How much does he sleep?

738
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: So I think during the season he's actually getting a

739
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: decent amount of sleep. It sounds study like he probably

740
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: takes a nap. I don't think he does the early

741
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: morning workouts as often during the season, so I think

742
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: he's getting an appropriate amount of sleep. I also think

743
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: that the heats sports science team probably has something to

744
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: say about how much sleep he should get, So I

745
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: think during the season it does seem like a normal amount.

746
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: I just want to know how. I want to know

747
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: physically how he told me he's able to fall asleep

748
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: five minutes after his head it's a pillow. I just

749
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: don't know how he does. Jimmy Butler is famously intense,

750
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: and he got into an argument this season that we

751
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: all saw with his teammate Udonis Haslem and his coach

752
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: Eric Spoelstra, and I'm wondering, are we sure that he

753
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: needs extra caffeine? Listen, immediately after the story him out,

754
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: people were like, hey, the most have in the caffeine rage. Um,

755
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: he's in deep now too. I mean, he told him

756
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: he doesn't remember the last time he didn't have a

757
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: cup of coffee. I think he's had a cup of

758
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: at least one cup of coffee every single day for

759
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 1: at least three or four years now, if not longer.

760
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of people understand that

761
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: level of dependence. But I don't know that he needs

762
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: it because of how in since he is. But I

763
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: know that that he can't do without it at this

764
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: he can't do it without it. And you asked him

765
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: about that and whether or not he could kick the

766
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: caffeine habit and stop drinking coffee, and he gave you

767
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: a very Jimmy reply, Could I do it? Yes? Do

768
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: I want to do it? No? Do I want to

769
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: try to do it? No? Do I think about doing it? No?

770
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: But could I do it? Yes? But I'm not, so

771
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: we can skip that work. He was, like he was

772
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: ready to get past that question for sure. Yeah. I

773
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: could totally stop drinking if I wanted to, but I

774
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: don't want to. Yeah. He also told you that what

775
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: he loves most about coffee is the conversation he has

776
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: with people over coffee, and you asked him, I thought

777
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: a fantastic question, nicely done by you and your reporting

778
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: instincts about his dream coffee shop, Hay. This to me

779
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: was a very good example of just how eclectic this

780
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: man is. Like I said, commitment to the bit at

781
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: all times just leaves you wondering what this man's true

782
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: in Tenson's were. But I believe he told me that

783
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: three people he'd like to copy with our neymar I

784
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: would pick name Army. Each fan of Nenymore, I would

785
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: pick Barack Obama. I think he was just like I

786
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: want Obama. Yeah, I gotta have a rockets, I mean

787
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: hard to Hercule. And then lastly, who is the tennis

788
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: prodigy who was at the Miami Open And I believe

789
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: he was like just he was behind the you know bench,

790
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: so to speak, whipping up coffees. I think she was there.

791
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: He was making coffees for her other players at the tournament.

792
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, an odd mix that I think is representative

793
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,479
Speaker 1: of just how goofy this man is. How many cups

794
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: of coffee did you have before this interview? I think

795
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: I had not had my coffee yet. During the interview,

796
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: I think I was like excited to go get it,

797
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: and so excited to go tell you about are at

798
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: the coffee I got that. I just somehow got too

799
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: worked up and forgotten. It was kind of sad because

800
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: I wanted to be like, hey, I'm drinking this right

801
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: now and remember regretting I didn't have that moment. Well,

802
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: now you and I are going to have to go

803
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: get coffee year on my dream coffee shop. Han, this

804
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: was precisely the pickup we needed. How delightful. Thank you

805
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: for this. Thank you so much. I listen. I've been

806
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: waiting to get my call up on SI weekly. Okay,

807
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: this is it, this is the big leagues. Uh, this

808
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: is it for me. So thank you so much for

809
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: having me on. You can read Rohan's piece about Jimmy

810
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: Butler and his coffee obsession on SI dot com well

811
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: link to it in our show notes. Sports Illustrated Weekly

812
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: is a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio.

813
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I

814
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

815
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: favorite shows. And for more of Sports Illustrated's best stories

816
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: and pot tests, visit SI dot com. This episode of

817
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated Weekly was produced by Cooper McKim, Jessica your Moski,

818
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: and Isaac Lee, who was also our sound engineer. Our

819
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: senior producer is Dan Blue. Our executive producers are Scott

820
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: Brody and me John Consults. Our theme song is by

821
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: Nolan Schneider. Thanks for listening, and if you've stuck around

822
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: this long, we leave you with this. Put me on

823
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: a little bit. What should I be doing at home

824
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: so I can be drinking coffee like Jimmy but Um.

825
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: First of all, you uhould pay me to come make

826
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: your coffee. Let's get it out of the way. I

827
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: can do that for you. Um. The ratio that I

828
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: like to use is sixteen and one, but it's different

829
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: for everybody. So whatever post about wherever gets you happy,

830
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: I just know, for a million dollars a second, I

831
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: will come and make your make your coffee.