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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us have heard that phrase at two Brute. That term

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Speaker 1: is actually a phrase that Shakespeare pentn when he was

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Speaker 1: writing one of his best known plays regarding Caesar. It

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Speaker 1: played during the Elizabethan times, and it captivated the crowd

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Speaker 1: because it was the story of a leader that was

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Speaker 1: slain by those in his inner circle. Of course, the

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Speaker 1: phrase itself points to Brutus, who was certainly in Caesar's

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Speaker 1: inner circle, But is it really how his death happened?

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Speaker 1: And of course we like to talk about death, and

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about the assassination of Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar and his autopsy. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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Speaker 1: is Body Backs, Great Caesar's Ghost, Dave mac I want

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Speaker 1: to have a conversation with you today about a historical

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Speaker 1: figure going back a couple of thousand years. Now we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the death of Julius Caesar at

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Speaker 1: the hands of those that surrounded him in a very

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Speaker 1: public area otherwise known as the forum. You up for this,

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Speaker 1: Dave mac IDEs of march Is upon us and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people like me. All we know about Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar is what Shakespeare wrote? When did Shakespeare write Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar fifteen ninety nine sixteen hundred somewhere in there for

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Speaker 1: the opening of the Globe Theater. You're talking about something

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Speaker 1: that was written a long time after the event took place.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a lot of memories, you've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of scattered stories, and you don't know the truth

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Speaker 1: from the lie. And that's why it's so fascinating. When

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Speaker 1: you told me that this autopsy, I thought you were

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Speaker 1: making it up. But I thought they don't do autopsy's back.

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Speaker 1: Then he's making this up. What if we did an

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Speaker 1: autopsy that kind of thing. When you told me that

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Speaker 1: this was the first autopsy, I thought, Holy moly, we've

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Speaker 1: got a conspiracy. We've got being stabbed in the back

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Speaker 1: by his best friends, by people he trusted, by people

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Speaker 1: he believed in. That's what the setting is for all

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Speaker 1: of the rigamarroll that then proceeded. Everything that took place

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Speaker 1: centered around politics, power, money, throw sex in there, and

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Speaker 1: if they had rock and roll, they'd be rock and roll.

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Speaker 1: This had everything. One of the interesting things here is

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Speaker 1: it brings us to this big question, what's the purpose

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Speaker 1: of an autopsy. I probably misspoke when I said that

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Speaker 1: was the first autopsy. People have been examining human remains

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Speaker 1: for hundreds and hundreds of years. Isn't that how we've

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Speaker 1: learned biology. There have been times where it was forbidden

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Speaker 1: by law to actually dissect or what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: a pro section of human remains. It was forbidden. That's

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Speaker 1: where grave robbin came from. Many times, medical students would

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Speaker 1: pay grave robbers to go out and grab bodies and

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Speaker 1: disinter bodies and bring them in so that they could

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Speaker 1: look and begin to understand human anatomy. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: being a physician and not understanding how we function. You've

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Speaker 1: got a medical practice, Okay, I get it. They're practicing medicine,

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Speaker 1: but they're not allowed to actually look at a real body.

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Speaker 1: So they're assuming and guessing as certain things. And their

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Speaker 1: best thing is get that blue jay over here, and

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Speaker 1: let's see if we can get him to peck on

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Speaker 1: that eyebrow to fix his eyesight. Well, I haven't thought

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Speaker 1: about it that way, but yeah, you're absolutely right. There

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Speaker 1: are many locations, I think now in medical education where

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Speaker 1: they're using three dimensional digital autopsies or digital gross dissections

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Speaker 1: in some instances where these are replacing actual dissection by

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Speaker 1: medical students. I have a problem with that. I think

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Speaker 1: there's a tactile nature to this. There's also a bigger reason,

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Speaker 1: I think in the case of Caesar, when he was

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Speaker 1: this victim of homicide, and it was a brutal homicide.

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Speaker 1: This is something that was done on the fifteenth of March,

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Speaker 1: the IDEs of March. As you mentioned, this is something

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Speaker 1: that was done in kind of a closed area. And

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Speaker 1: when I said closed, I'm saying the general public was

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Speaker 1: not allowed to be within this space. You're talking senators

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Speaker 1: that were in this environment. He was seated on a

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Speaker 1: gold throne. He'd made entrance into this location called the Portico,

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Speaker 1: where they had a throne set aside for him there.

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Speaker 1: People think a lot about Caesar crossing the Rubicon and

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Speaker 1: all those things that he had done. He was a

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Speaker 1: masterful general. He was a beloved figure among the common

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Speaker 1: people of that time, and the senators were very elitist.

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Speaker 1: They truly words hard to frame it any other way.

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Speaker 1: This was very threatening to them. One of the interesting

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Speaker 1: parts to Caesar's life is that he had adjusted apparently

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Speaker 1: his will just prior to his assassination, almost like a

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Speaker 1: portent of what was to come to guarantee that all

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Speaker 1: citizens within Rome had three months worth of salary upon

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Speaker 1: his death in order to grieve him properly. You can

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Speaker 1: imagine how that kind of resonated with common folk. They're

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Speaker 1: looking at senators and they're thinking, these people aren't doing

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Speaker 1: anything for us. Here we have our supreme leader that

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Speaker 1: even upon his debt, he's going to leave us money.

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Speaker 1: He had a real common touch apparently, so when they

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Speaker 1: did this autopsy, the purpose of this, I think, and

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Speaker 1: we can explore this further, but the purpose of this

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Speaker 1: was to demonstrate first off, that Caesar was dead. Because

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Speaker 1: they didn't have mass media, obviously, many people would not

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Speaker 1: believe that he was dead. They had to confirm that

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Speaker 1: he was in fact dead, and then to kick it

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Speaker 1: up a notch. It was done in such a manner

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Speaker 1: that the public were made aware of how horrendous this

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Speaker 1: attack was when he was set upon by these people

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Speaker 1: that were occupying the space in the Senate that day.

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Speaker 1: An amazing conspiracy that when into taking out one of

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Speaker 1: the most beloved leaders at the time in the world.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like Rome was an island off to itself.

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Speaker 1: It was a big part of what was taking place

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Speaker 1: around the world. Everybody knew Julius Caesar. The Roman expansion

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Speaker 1: had not occurred to the point where we finally know

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Speaker 1: it at its peak, but it was from a Western perspective.

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Speaker 1: It was a world that had people from the former

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Speaker 1: Persian Empire that were part of it, and you had

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Speaker 1: people as far away as where modern day Frances. He

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Speaker 1: had made his name by going out with his armies

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Speaker 1: and defeating what they referred to as barbarians and keeping

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Speaker 1: the hordes at bay, if you will. That was part

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Speaker 1: of his entry into the pantheonon He achieved almost a

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Speaker 1: godlike status through his actions. As a general. He was known,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that this was done in such a

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Speaker 1: public way was really bold upon the people that were

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Speaker 1: conspiring to do this. You have these areas in your

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Speaker 1: life where you don't necessarily believe any harm can come

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Speaker 1: to you. But Caesar had been warned. He had been

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Speaker 1: warned in the days leading up to this fatal attack

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Speaker 1: Beware the odds of March, which is actually the fifteenth

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Speaker 1: of March. He was told that great harm was going

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Speaker 1: to come to me. As a matter of fact, it

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Speaker 1: is told that his wife had troubling nightmares in the

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Speaker 1: immediate nights preceding his death, and he had gone some

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Speaker 1: links to try to reassure her that he was going

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Speaker 1: to be okay. There were people that were begging him

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Speaker 1: not to go to the Senate. So it was in

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Speaker 1: the air. It was floating about how is it possible

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Speaker 1: for this many people to keep a secret. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever shared something with someone and you want to keep

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Speaker 1: it hush hush, and then all of a sudden you

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Speaker 1: get wind of it. How is it possible? But he's

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Speaker 1: surrounded by nest of vipers by the time he walks

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Speaker 1: into that room. I'm glad you said that, because the

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Speaker 1: amazing thing about the secret keeping that went on is,

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Speaker 1: even now, all these years later, we actually don't know

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Speaker 1: how many people were involved in the conspiracy. This autopsy

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Speaker 1: had a purpose beyond just cause of death each one

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Speaker 1: of the conspiracs and putting them in air quotes. Each

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Speaker 1: one of these conspirators had to leave their mark. And

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Speaker 1: I'm curious as to how, all these years later we're

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Speaker 1: looking at this and going, okay, well, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned his wife having dreams. She had blood dreams,

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Speaker 1: which were commonly associated with death. Dreams. She's telling him,

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Speaker 1: don't go anywhere, just don't go to the Senate because

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Speaker 1: he was lured into an area where he would not

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Speaker 1: have bodyguards to show the people he was a common man.

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Speaker 1: He already relieved his guards of duty right that had

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Speaker 1: been documented that he had done that to try to

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Speaker 1: show that he had the common touch. I don't need

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Speaker 1: brutes along with me to demonstrate I'm this powerful person.

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Speaker 1: I just want to demonstrate I feel very secure in

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Speaker 1: this environment. And maybe that's the ultimate and arrogance. Who knows,

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Speaker 1: but I do know that when he was meant to

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Speaker 1: rise from his throne in the Senate, there was a

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Speaker 1: group of these senators that descended upon him and put

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Speaker 1: hands on him. And as the story is told, one

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Speaker 1: senator actually grabbed hold of his outer vestments as they're

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Speaker 1: called his toga, and grabbed hold of the toga that

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Speaker 1: he was wearing in order to secure him in place. Forensically,

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Speaker 1: when you're looking at an environment where you have this

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Speaker 1: dynamic movement that's going on, particularly when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: edged weapons because he was stabbed, you have to be

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Speaker 1: able to corral this individual, hold them in place, and

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Speaker 1: guarantee that they cannot escape. You would not just have

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Speaker 1: had a group of attackers. It is alleged that there

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Speaker 1: would have been a peripheral group that were acting almost

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Speaker 1: like an outer defense rank to keep him contained in

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Speaker 1: that small space so that the attackers could do their

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Speaker 1: worst at that point in time. And it all initiates

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Speaker 1: with one senator grabbing hold of his toga. He's defenseless

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Speaker 1: at that point in time. He was also overpowered. Depending

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Speaker 1: on which historical documents one looks at, we know that

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Speaker 1: there was only one Julius Caesar and the people he

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Speaker 1: trusted the closest ones to him were part of the conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: He had maybe sixty to seventy senators. Each one of

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Speaker 1: them had a different agenda. Some we're kind of playing

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Speaker 1: lookout to make sure that Julius Caesar didn't get any help,

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Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, using the toga to hold him down.

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Speaker 1: And my question though, is we know that he was

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Speaker 1: stabbed twenty three times the autopsy. Was this a normal

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Speaker 1: process when there was a criminal act? Joke? That's the

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Speaker 1: vague part of this. We don't really know. There's not

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Speaker 1: a lot in the written record, but his examination, his

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Speaker 1: postmortem examination was famously documented and It wasn't just documented.

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Speaker 1: They believe this gentleman was his attending physician, Anti Sias.

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Speaker 1: They had physicians, and the physicians back then had a

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Speaker 1: true understanding of human anatomy. You move forward in history, though,

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Speaker 1: and some of that knowledge was lost. The ancients possessed it.

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Speaker 1: They didn't necessarily have a problem with examining bodies, I

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Speaker 1: don't think, and trying to understand form and function. As

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Speaker 1: we moved through history, suddenly it's frowned upon to dissect

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Speaker 1: human remains. But back then they would have had an understanding.

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Speaker 1: This idea of a pathologist who studies disease and then

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Speaker 1: you kick it up another level to where they're studying

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Speaker 1: fatal trauma. It wasn't like this, but it was a physician,

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Speaker 1: Anti Sias was his name, and he conducted autopsy. An

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Speaker 1: interesting little turn here is that what we understand, Caesar

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Speaker 1: lay where he fell, they approximate for about three hours, Dave.

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Speaker 1: That means that you would have had a lot of

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Speaker 1: postmortem changes that were taking place. He would have not

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Speaker 1: been in full rider Morris, but he would have been

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Speaker 1: stiff postmorm ravidity, which we've talked about extensively on bodybags settling,

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Speaker 1: a blood would have occurred. We have to understand that

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Speaker 1: his toga, these sorts of things in the undergarments, they

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Speaker 1: just walk around nude with a toga thrown on him.

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Speaker 1: They did have undergarments that they would wear. All the

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Speaker 1: clothing would have probably have still remained intact. It is

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Speaker 1: told that senators actually fled. There's two hundred known senators

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Speaker 1: that were there. Of course, not all of them are

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Speaker 1: in on the assassination. Interestingly, Caesar had actually expanded the

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Speaker 1: size of the Senate in order to represent more people.

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Speaker 1: So you had slaves there, he had secretaries, you had aids.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how many of those were there. They

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Speaker 1: fled out, and the conspirators, allegedly with him lying there,

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Speaker 1: were going to try to explain themselves, and suddenly the

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Speaker 1: whole thing went sideways. You mentioned that he expanded it.

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Speaker 1: There were over six hundred senators at the time this happened,

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Speaker 1: only two to three hundred actually there. I was looking

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Speaker 1: at this, Joe. They were talking about sixty to seventy

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Speaker 1: involved in the actual conspiracy, and they all had different roles,

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Speaker 1: And that actually makes a good point. If they were

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Speaker 1: say two hundred active senators that you would have to

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Speaker 1: have a number of other senators involved in conspiracy were

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Speaker 1: able to hold them back until the deed was done.

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Speaker 1: When somebody has stabbed that many times, Joe, and they're

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Speaker 1: laying there, as you said, for hours, does the blood

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Speaker 1: just keep pouring out until there is no more blood

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Speaker 1: or does it stop? At some point it will stop.

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Speaker 1: You'll have the seepage that takes place initially because it

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Speaker 1: is a liquid. I've alluded to this before, but viscosity

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Speaker 1: goes to thickness. So one of the reasons that blood

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Speaker 1: remains a viscous liquid or thick it is because it's

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Speaker 1: moving to our body. But once that movement begins to

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Speaker 1: seize and blood begins to settle, it begins to separate.

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Speaker 1: There's kind of a coagulation that goes on and it

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Speaker 1: becomes very thick from those initial insults to the body.

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Speaker 1: Yet he would have been coming out blood, certainly from

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Speaker 1: those while his heart was still going, and then he

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Speaker 1: would have fallen to the floor. There would have been

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Speaker 1: seepits from those immediate areas where the estab wounds took place,

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Speaker 1: but after a period of time it would have ceased.

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Speaker 1: And so the slaves think maybe three to four actually

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Speaker 1: came into this area three hours later and gathered his

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Speaker 1: remains and took him back to his apartments. It's there

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Speaker 1: that Antsias went and conducted his examination. It's really quite fascinating.

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Speaker 1: What was the physician's purpose in this. Did he take

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Speaker 1: it upon himself to say, I'm going to do a

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Speaker 1: post mortem examination on Caesar's remains, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: determine what happened. And this is what's fascinating about this.

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Speaker 1: Guess what he may have been trying to achieve a

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Speaker 1: sequencing of wounds, a sequencing of injuries. And you've got

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Speaker 1: so many eyes on the scene, people that are not

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Speaker 1: part of the conspiracy. And if he can establish a sequence,

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Speaker 1: it can actually establish whose hand was in the actual death,

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Speaker 1: who thrust that dagger forward. Dagger implies double edged, so

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Speaker 1: this is a very destructive instrument. You're not just cutting

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Speaker 1: on one side. You've got now two sharp edges that

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Speaker 1: are going into the body. And it was not uncommon

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Speaker 1: for people to walk around with a dagger in their belt.

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Speaker 1: It's not necessarily because you're afraid you're going to be robbed.

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Speaker 1: They had utility. You could peel fruit with them, or

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Speaker 1: you could chop things up, you could cut rope, you

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Speaker 1: could probably crack up an oysters. Oysters were part of

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Speaker 1: the diet back then. Dagger would have been very well

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Speaker 1: suited to that because it's got a double edge on it.

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Speaker 1: But they could be used for defense, and so you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily know that someone had a dagger, but they

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Speaker 1: could reach inside their cloak and pull this thing out

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Speaker 1: and deploy it. This sequencing is very key here because

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Speaker 1: what Antisias determined was this, though Caesar was stabbed so

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Speaker 1: many times twenty three, there was only one of these

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Speaker 1: days that actually fatal. If you think about your left

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Speaker 1: shoulder blade and kind of move up your shoulder blade

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Speaker 1: till you're near your spine, I think people forget that

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Speaker 1: we have ribs on our posterior as well as our anterior,

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Speaker 1: so they kind of wrap around between his first and

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Speaker 1: second rib Posteriorly the dagger entered, and this dagger probably

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Speaker 1: was in the range of about seven to eight inches.

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Speaker 1: It makes it concealable. It's not like a standard dagger

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Speaker 1: that like a Roman soldier would have carried. It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit shorter, but it would have been buried in

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Speaker 1: his back and it passes between that intercostal space, the

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Speaker 1: meaty muscle area between the ribs. Based upon the autopsy results,

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Speaker 1: it would seem that his a order may have been clipped,

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Speaker 1: and the order is the big vessel that comes off

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Speaker 1: of the heart. They think that it may have been clipped,

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Speaker 1: or his lung may have been clipped, or maybe both.

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Speaker 1: It would have been an unusual injury because most of

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Speaker 1: the time when we see insults like this, where you've

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Speaker 1: got penetrative events where there's a gun chat, unstab, when

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Speaker 1: those are going to come in from the front or anteriorly.

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Speaker 1: Here this is coming from the back, which is fascinating

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Speaker 1: to me. But you mentioned the blood loss. Does that

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Speaker 1: mean that the doctor could have ruled his death due

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Speaker 1: to blood loss? I'm so glad you asked this. This

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Speaker 1: is a fancy word that doctors use. It's called exanguination,

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Speaker 1: and it merely means to bleed out when Antesias would

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Speaker 1: have opened. If he did, in fact open, there's no

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Speaker 1: guarantee that he opened Caesar's body. The autopsy merely means

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Speaker 1: that he did a post mortum exam. If he did

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Speaker 1: open the chest cavity, what he would have been greeted

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Speaker 1: by Caesar's lungs would have been literally floating in blood,

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Speaker 1: and we refer to this as plural effusion. When you

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Speaker 1: bleed out internally in your chest. In particular, the lungs

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Speaker 1: are going to be a washing blood because there's not

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Speaker 1: enough holes, if you will, defects for the blood to

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Speaker 1: pour out, so it's contained. In that environment. It would

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Speaker 1: have been literally he would have understood enough about human

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Speaker 1: physiology and certainly trauma. I would think to understand that

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Speaker 1: there's something internally going on here. Something has been nicked,

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Speaker 1: a vessel has been nicked, and he would have bled

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Speaker 1: out in this environment. Aortic injuries are not the most survivable,

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Speaker 1: but you can have people that will survive chest injuries

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Speaker 1: like this if you can get them to the doctor

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Speaker 1: so that they can open up the chest cavity and

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Speaker 1: drain blood out. That's not something that would have been

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Speaker 1: done here. First off, they didn't have a wherewithal at

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Speaker 1: that moment in time. They left his body there. He

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Speaker 1: apparently had died pretty quickly. There was no signs of life.

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Speaker 1: By their estimation, his chest would have filled with blood.

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Speaker 1: And when you open people's chest up at autopsy like this,

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Speaker 1: I have been standing at the autopsy table and have

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Speaker 1: been a washing blood where it pours out depended upon

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Speaker 1: how the body has been handled and this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and you will literally see almost like a cork in

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Speaker 1: the water when you're fishing, the lungs floating in blood

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Speaker 1: like this. And that's what actually led to his day

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Speaker 1: thinking about these injuries that Caesar sustained. Either these guys

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Speaker 1: were not very handy with sharp instruments because you've got

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Speaker 1: a guy that's being held down, or maybe there was

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Speaker 1: some other purpose as to why twenty three. I've had

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Speaker 1: a hard time trying to make my way through this logically, David.

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Speaker 1: It's because it's not logical. You would think that as

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy unfold, that each person has a designed part

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Speaker 1: of the plan. I'm gonna hold his arms back, He's

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Speaker 1: going to stab him. But the problem is when you

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Speaker 1: get into the guilt base, if this turns south, who's

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Speaker 1: going to get blamed for this event? I'm thinking first stab,

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Speaker 1: last stab, fatal stab. Surely they had to have done

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Speaker 1: more than just stick him. Weren't they beating him? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what did he look like when this was done? There

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Speaker 1: would have been some blunt force trauma. I can only

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Speaker 1: imagine that's not really part of the record, but have

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Speaker 1: to understand that they're going to be applying direct force

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Speaker 1: in addition to the stab wounds. But here's something curious.

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Speaker 1: There is a gentleman that was a death investigator and

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Speaker 1: a criminalist, an Italian gentleman named Commander Gropeveno. He went

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Speaker 1: to great links to try to reconstruct the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: This location actually still stands. You can see it. It's

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Speaker 1: called the Portico. I've never been there. I've always wanted

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Speaker 1: to go to Italy. That's going to be on the

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Speaker 1: list to get to. This is very significant in forensics,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in just a second. But

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Speaker 1: the commander, when he went back through to assist, he

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Speaker 1: also consulted with forensic psychiatrist. His conclusion was based upon

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Speaker 1: the record that they have and the report that he

359
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Speaker 1: had kind of gone through it with us, that there

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Speaker 1: was an attempt Dave to disfigure Caesar because the wound

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Speaker 1: that we had talked about that under the left shoulder blade.

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Speaker 1: These other wounds were apparently survivable wounds, but they were horrific.

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Speaker 1: He had wounds to his face and to his groin.

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Speaker 1: So many times we talk about sharp force injuries in

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Speaker 1: these cases on body bags, and when you have a

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Speaker 1: case where disfigurement is involved, that's an indication of a

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Speaker 1: lot of anger. You're trying to send a message. If

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Speaker 1: I can't have you, no one else can. All these

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Speaker 1: other things, we're going to make you look horrible, even

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Speaker 1: in death. And then you go to this great man

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Speaker 1: being the focus here. The commander and the psychiatrist believe

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Speaker 1: that this was an attempt to emasculate it, this attempt

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Speaker 1: to attack his manhood in a physical demonstration. That's key here,

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Speaker 1: because they wanted to demonstrate that they were going to

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Speaker 1: be the dominant force, certainly in the ruling class in Rome,

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Speaker 1: and demonstrate to everybody in the Senate. Now. I always

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Speaker 1: come back to this with this assassination. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: where you've got an individual that is quote unquote assassinated,

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Speaker 1: but when you do it in front of a group

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Speaker 1: of people, there's more to it than merely a homicide.

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Speaker 1: You're demonstrating something to somebody, You're sending a message to

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Speaker 1: everybody else where. Did they actually do the autopsy. We're

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Speaker 1: left with him laid out on the floor, blood has coagulated.

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Speaker 1: It's a couple hours later, what do they do Now

385
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Speaker 1: They've taken him back to the palace and to what

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Speaker 1: would have been referred to as his apartments, and they

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Speaker 1: would have done the autopsy there. Antsias would have spent

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Speaker 1: a considerable amount of time. I can only imagine while

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Speaker 1: he's doing this, he probably has a scribe with him,

390
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Speaker 1: and this is interesting going forward to modern autopsies. One

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Speaker 1: of my initial jobs in the Morgue was to work

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Speaker 1: as a scribe, and they still use that term. And

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Speaker 1: physicians will look at you and they will say, will

394
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Speaker 1: you scribe for me? And what that means is that

395
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: the physician is covered in blood. Even today, you're covered

396
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: in blood and they will have blood surgical gloves on,

397
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: they'll have it over their arms, and many times there

398
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 1: will be a person seated on a chair that will

399
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: have a clipboard and a pen. And you have to

400
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: be able to speak the physicians language now, because they

401
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: all have different things that they like to indicate, from

402
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: measurements to the organ description as injury descriptions, and there's

403
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 1: actually a scribe that sits there and they will write

404
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: this stuff down. Some people record it and by voice

405
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: where they have a mic haying down, which is really

406
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: horrible because you pick up all the other noises in

407
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: the room. Imagine ant Sizery would have been barehanded. He's

408
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: got blood all over him, the blood of Caesar, and

409
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: he's got this person that's sitting there with him describe,

410
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: and he's writing all of this down as he's going

411
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: through these injuries and making note of it. And he

412
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: made such great notes by their standard. Then he actually

413
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 1: developed something that we use now, and that's three D modeling.

414
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: Remember how I was saying that they wanted to demonstrate

415
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Speaker 1: that this event actually took place. They created a wax

416
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: effigy of Caesar, and Antisias indicated on the wax effigy

417
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: of Caesar where his injuries were. Now that's something that

418
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: we do with computers Nowaday. This is over two thousand

419
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: years ago. They created this model in wax. After he

420
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: had set this thing up, they took it into a

421
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: public location known as the Forum and had it on

422
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: this wheel and turned it so that everybody in the

423
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: crowd could see it. They said that when the people

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00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: that witnessed this display this is a godlike figure to

425
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: these people. When they witnessed and he suddenly becomes mortal, right,

426
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: they witnessed what had happened to their beloved Caesar. There

427
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: were people weeping, screaming. It infuriated the crowd. It was

428
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: at that moment time that something happened, because it's from

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00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: that moment time when this physician over two thousand years

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00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: ago created this wax model, stood before a crowd in

431
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: the forum and began to describe Caesar's injuries and how

432
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: he died. This is where we get the word forensic from.

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00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: It's rooted in the same word as forum, and that's

434
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: what we do in forensics day. We debate science, we

435
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: debate in front of a court. Still to this day,

436
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: we talk about the science of death. This is amazing. Yeah,

437
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: it is that we've got these kinds of threads through

438
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: time that lead all the way back to the death

439
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: of Caesar. I would need a wax model because you

440
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: describe things or I read them, and I'm not a doctor.

441
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: I'm just a guy. I don't know all the terminology,

442
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: and I certainly don't know what these things mean. But

443
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: you show me a wax body that looks like mine,

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00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: and you're showing me where these stab wounds were and

445
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: what other damage was done. Now I have a good

446
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: understanding of what took place, and what they have done,

447
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: those who did this, the conspirators, that blows me away

448
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: that even to this day, I could see this exact

449
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: same thing happening right now with forensic stuff that is

450
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: named after this, which blows me away. It is quite amazing.

451
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: And it's not like the ancients were ignorant people, and

452
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: it's arrogance on our part if we dismiss them and

453
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: their ability to understand and comprehend. Just because we're modern

454
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: in our own context doesn't mean that we're brighter than

455
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: they were. They still felt the same things that we do.

456
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: They could still understand intellectually form and function, and this

457
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: model itself and the presentation of it in this court

458
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: like setting really drove the crowd and the momentum of

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00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: everything that was happening in Rome at that time to

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00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: go after these people. There was an entire war that

461
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: was fought in the face of this. The famous Mark

462
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: Antony rose to power at this point in time, and

463
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 1: it all kind of turned on this one event. And

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00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: we have Antisias to thank for this to be able

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00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: to take an event that was so tragic in Roman

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00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: history and their great leader that had fallen and almost

467
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: like we do with it. Dead today, conjure them, bring

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00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: them back to life, and again it holds true today,

469
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: just like it did all those years ago. Where we

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Speaker 1: begin and understand that we speak for those that can

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Speaker 1: no longer speak for themselves. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Body Backs