Speaker 1: I'm Manny Noah, and this is no such thing. The
Speaker 1: show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by
Speaker 1: actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're asking why
Speaker 1: men don't ask follow up questions. We're gonna be talking
Speaker 1: to masculinity expert Liz Plank, who helps Noah, Devon and
Speaker 1: I figure out how much we actually know about each other.
Speaker 2: You should know who their axes like, who their like
Speaker 2: last breakup was with.
Speaker 1: That's interesting and gives us a very special assignment. There's
Speaker 1: no no such thing such thing. All right, boys, I
Speaker 1: think we're all congested up today. Apologies to the listeners.
Speaker 3: Sounds sexy today, sound a little nasty.
Speaker 1: It is funny. We're all how did this happen? At
Speaker 1: the same time. I haven't seen you guys.
Speaker 3: In a while, and then it's been a minute.
Speaker 1: I wanted to start off this episode by playing a TikTok.
Speaker 3: I'm going to order a beerd woman.
Speaker 1: Now, I'm good.
Speaker 4: I just got out of rehab, right, Okay, So how Samantha,
Speaker 4: how's married life?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 4: I didn't tell you we got divorced.
Speaker 5: You want to put together like a little parlay for
Speaker 5: this weekend?
Speaker 2: Hell? Yes?
Speaker 4: What do you want to do It's like fifty dollars something.
Speaker 4: I just got fired from the firm last week. Maybe
Speaker 4: it was two twenty five. Fuck it, Fuck it, dude,
Speaker 4: I got hit by a city bus last month.
Speaker 3: All had the settlement.
Speaker 1: Money just came in.
Speaker 5: I got you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that video is a joke, obviously it's hyperbolized. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's still resonated with me because I've definitely been
Speaker 1: there before, Like I've like we have male friendships like this.
Speaker 1: I would like to think that the three of us
Speaker 1: are like a different breed of man, like a morse,
Speaker 1: like a like more sensitive, I think than the average person.
Speaker 1: Who we do ask each other follow up questions. We
Speaker 1: care about what's happening in our lives. But I do
Speaker 1: have friends like friends I would consider close friends, and
Speaker 1: I know what they do in work, but I don't know,
Speaker 1: I couldn't name like the name of their company, for example,
Speaker 1: do you guys run into this, Like what what's your
Speaker 1: experience with this kind of phenomenon?
Speaker 6: Watching that video, I was thinking, like last week I
Speaker 6: was I had a call with a friend of ours
Speaker 6: that we used to work with, and you know, then
Speaker 6: we're just chatting and and he was like, oh yeah,
Speaker 6: like you know, like my wife's having our second kid
Speaker 6: in April. And it was like he was like, oh yeah,
Speaker 6: I wasn't sure if I mentioned that or not. And
Speaker 6: it was like, oh, like that's a pretty big big
Speaker 6: thing for me to not know and happening soon. And
Speaker 6: you know, to be fair, it's not like we I
Speaker 6: don't chat with him every week or as frequently, like, yeah,
Speaker 6: that was one of you guys having a.
Speaker 5: Kid in three months.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'd be shocked for It's like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 6: guess it just means we don't really talk that much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you guys have like close friends who you
Speaker 1: think this kind of applies to this, this phenomenon, I
Speaker 1: guess you'd call it.
Speaker 3: I don't like the prize, so I think it's different.
Speaker 7: If it comes up in conversation, I will ask follow
Speaker 7: up questions if that person brings it up themselves, yeah yeah.
Speaker 7: But if someone doesn't come to me with the information,
Speaker 7: I'm not someone who's gonna ask that question. That's like
Speaker 7: going to make somebody uncomfortable.
Speaker 6: That that's exactly how I feel, And I think that's
Speaker 6: to me, that's what it is, Like, I'm.
Speaker 5: Overall a pretty live and let live sort of.
Speaker 6: Yeah, guys, So it's like if someone wants to talk
Speaker 6: to me about something serious or whatever, like whatever, Like
Speaker 6: I hope I'm receptive and you know, someone they'd feel
Speaker 6: comfortable talking to me about anything. Yeah, but like, yeah,
Speaker 6: I don't want to put someone on the spot in
Speaker 6: that way if they don't want to open up to
Speaker 6: me in that way, because that's how I kind of
Speaker 6: feel where and sometimes there's things where it is helpful
Speaker 6: for someone to kind.
Speaker 5: Of push you, yeah, to be like it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean this is just it is good usually
Speaker 6: to listen, yeah, be pushed into maybe an uncomfortable conversation
Speaker 6: of course, and open.
Speaker 5: Up in that way.
Speaker 6: But yeah, like in a normal setting, it's it is uncomfortable,
Speaker 6: and I don't want to put that on someone else.
Speaker 5: To do it, like if they don't want to naturally.
Speaker 1: You know, how much of this do you think is gendered?
Speaker 1: Like the other day, I was listening to my girlfriend
Speaker 1: talk on the phone with her sisters about I don't know,
Speaker 1: like our week, and she was really going into detail
Speaker 1: about certain things that I was like, no, not nothing
Speaker 1: like offensive, but no, no, it was just like oh wow,
Speaker 1: And then I thought about if I talked to my
Speaker 1: siblings and they asked me how my week went, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, it was good, it went to work, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: everything was fine.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: I noticed this all the time.
Speaker 7: When I talk to my mom, she tells details about
Speaker 7: like what she's done for today, or just like a
Speaker 7: story at least sometimes I'm like, okay, I don't even.
Speaker 3: Know that level of detail.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but she yeah, she'll go into she'd be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 7: you know, I pulled them in the park lot and
Speaker 7: then this thing happened, and then I was talking to
Speaker 7: this person and they said this thing. And to your point,
Speaker 7: when I'm talking to people, like if people are I'm
Speaker 7: like kind of straight into the point because I'm always
Speaker 7: thinking they don't care about this. Yeah, let me just
Speaker 7: say what's essential. I think you know, this is you know,
Speaker 7: broad strokes. We understand stereotyping, but I think women generally
Speaker 7: are more specific in their storytelling and and the questions
Speaker 7: that they asked, the follow ups that sort of thing,
Speaker 7: and guys are just short of what what what do
Speaker 7: I need to know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and contextualizing things before the story even begins.
Speaker 3: Yes, So like I run into this a lot with my.
Speaker 1: Sister or with me, where like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: like lore that happens first and then you get the
Speaker 1: story that whereas I would just start for exactly the
Speaker 1: beginning of the story before we.
Speaker 3: Even get into it. You got to know that, like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but then it's ends up being helpful.
Speaker 7: It's like much better storytellers that.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've definitely had a like similar situations where you know,
Speaker 6: I'm hanging out with some guy friend and then I
Speaker 6: go home and you know, I'm talking to my girlfriend
Speaker 6: and I'm you know, say, oh, like he told me
Speaker 6: this about X y Z. And then she's like, oh,
Speaker 6: and what about you know, a normal follow up and
Speaker 6: it's like, yeah, I don't know, I didn't ask kind
Speaker 6: of none of my business, I guess, but.
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe you can find out when he's.
Speaker 3: Maybe you can ask the followup questions.
Speaker 6: We all getdrinks together, and yeah, we can get to
Speaker 6: the bottom of Yah, it's like didn't come up.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's not just a meme, right, there's
Speaker 1: like a lot of a lot of literature on this.
Speaker 1: As a few examples, Bustle dot com head why don't
Speaker 1: men ask me more questions on dates? So there we've
Speaker 1: been talking about conversations with friends, but a lot of
Speaker 1: this phenomenon seems to be in the dating world. Uh,
Speaker 1: San Diego Magazine, Why don't men ask questions on apps?
Speaker 5: Courts?
Speaker 1: The gendered way we ask questions is terrible for both
Speaker 1: men and women. And so it's definitely something that's like
Speaker 1: real and happening.
Speaker 7: I feel most of the conversation or literature I've seen
Speaker 7: around this has been more so in terms of dating.
Speaker 3: I've seen less sort of.
Speaker 7: Conversations around well until more recently friendships, which I find
Speaker 7: to be more interesting.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: I don't know. For me, it's like the.
Speaker 7: Dating thing is just so many, so easy to ask
Speaker 7: follow us because you don't know anything about this person.
Speaker 5: That's all you have.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's more confusing to me.
Speaker 6: So you're you're either monologuing yes and not asking anything
Speaker 6: about the other person or yeah, I mean yeah, it's
Speaker 6: like there's not really much else you can do, and
Speaker 6: one person is just gonna literally talk the entire time,
Speaker 6: which happens, I suppose.
Speaker 7: And look, and maybe we should get people who have
Speaker 7: dated or went on dates of all of us. Yeah, response,
Speaker 7: because obviously we're biased, because we're saying.
Speaker 3: Oh, on dates, we all ask follow up questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's us. Well, I certainly remember, like years ago,
Speaker 1: I was we didn't even go on a date, but
Speaker 1: I was we were like kind of it was leading
Speaker 1: to a date, I think. And I remember, uh, that
Speaker 1: woman telling a friend of mine that I talked too
Speaker 1: much or something in our in our interaction. Oh, but
Speaker 1: then I remember, I just remembered it totally differently. So
Speaker 1: just to your point about like the bias that we
Speaker 1: have in our own heads, we're probably so interesting to
Speaker 1: ourselves in our heads.
Speaker 7: Maybe the people were dating or like these dudes don't
Speaker 7: ask any following Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think there's probably something to it where
Speaker 6: in a dating scenario where you don't know the other person,
Speaker 6: I can think of dates I've been on where I
Speaker 6: think I've overtalked in a way because the other person
Speaker 6: seems to not be maybe giving me anything. So it's like, well,
Speaker 6: that's just what it is, and then got nothing you know, spoiler,
Speaker 6: that's not the my girlfriend. Yeah, so you know it's
Speaker 6: you know, and like or it's like you're so worried
Speaker 6: about not about being the person who doesn't talk that
Speaker 6: then you go too much in the other direction.
Speaker 1: And the other reason I'm more interested in this dynamic
Speaker 1: when it comes to friends than dating is because dating
Speaker 1: it there's so many variables of like people are nervous
Speaker 1: on dates, they might be doing things they wouldn't normally
Speaker 1: do when you're when if it's your friend who you've
Speaker 1: known for years and you still aren't asked follow up questions,
Speaker 1: it becomes a little more interesting. There's certainly, like I'm
Speaker 1: sure we all have this where we have different like
Speaker 1: tiers of friends or like caliber friend Like there are
Speaker 1: friends you have where you go for a drink and
Speaker 1: get into deep stuff. You have other friends where you're like,
Speaker 1: I want to want to watch the game tonight or
Speaker 1: something like that, and so you know, there's all these
Speaker 1: different roles in dynamics being played.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, there's a time and place for things too.
Speaker 6: I mean that's a lot of it too, where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 6: of course it's great to everyone should have some people
Speaker 6: they can open up to and talk to. At the
Speaker 6: same time, you don't want to be the guy who
Speaker 6: every time you're getting dinner, now it's like you're hearing
Speaker 6: all my drama and my deep.
Speaker 5: You know, it's like not everyone needs to be that
Speaker 5: for every person, or should.
Speaker 1: Be so as a little as a little uh game.
Speaker 1: I guess if I told you, guys, uh that I
Speaker 1: just got out of the hospital, what would you what
Speaker 1: would your reaction be?
Speaker 5: Damn?
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I'm doing all right.
Speaker 5: What happened?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Got in a car accident?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So these are you guys are close enough to asking
Speaker 1: follow up questions? You're not just like, damn, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: And then that's where the conversation ends. I just wanted
Speaker 1: to test.
Speaker 5: You, guys.
Speaker 1: Great does I'll be throwing a real one out in
Speaker 1: real life somewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in a while, do a project veritasas.
Speaker 1: All right, we will be talking to Liz Plank.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: She's an expert in many things, but for the purposes
Speaker 1: of this episode today, she's an expert on men in masculinity.
Speaker 1: She's got a famous book, I would consider it famous
Speaker 1: by now, called for the Love of Men From Toxic
Speaker 1: to a More Mindful Masculinity. And she's gonna hopefully break
Speaker 1: this down for us. That's after the break.
Speaker 2: Can you guys hear me? Now?
Speaker 3: Hey, good you too.
Speaker 1: First of all, thank you for doing this. Huge helps us.
Speaker 1: We brought you on for this central question why don't
Speaker 1: men ask follow up questions? But first, I was curious
Speaker 1: in your experience, how have you dealt with this? Have
Speaker 1: you run into this in your personal life? Are there
Speaker 1: any notable incidents that you can remember?
Speaker 2: Like far too many probably to recall, if I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be honest, if you're a woman going on.
Speaker 8: Dates with men, I think particularly it is just yeah,
Speaker 8: part of a part of the ex I think, to
Speaker 8: become like a late night host, like where you're just like, okay,
Speaker 8: I guess I'm David Letterman, like I'm just gonna ask
Speaker 8: you questions and make you feel great about your life,
Speaker 8: and while I just entertain an audience that doesn't exist and.
Speaker 2: Get absolutely nothing in return. I think in terms of
Speaker 2: first dates, it is just so rampant. I think it's
Speaker 2: it's a real epidemic of like going on a date
Speaker 2: and then leaving and being like, Wow, this man does
Speaker 2: not know a thing about me and like and and
Speaker 2: had a great time, which which you would have a
Speaker 2: great time, right if if you just talk about yourself,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you'd all have a great time. But who Yeah,
Speaker 2: when they want to go on a second date, you're
Speaker 2: like that was great. You're like, what was it?
Speaker 5: Do you like?
Speaker 2: Tell me one thing? Like you want to quiz them
Speaker 2: you get one reason why they like you? Do guys
Speaker 2: think about that on dates.
Speaker 1: I've been out of the game, so to speak, for
Speaker 1: a while, but yeah, like back in, you know, in
Speaker 1: that time. I think I would notice on the few
Speaker 1: occasions where I felt like I've talked too much, I
Speaker 1: would notice, like when it was too late, I guess,
Speaker 1: like towards towards the end of a spiel or something
Speaker 1: like that. I'd be like, oh, wait a second, I
Speaker 1: gotta take a step back. For anyone who's listening, who
Speaker 1: would like to hear like a bit of advice about
Speaker 1: what to do if they're in that situation, if they're
Speaker 1: on a date with a guy and they just are like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I can't believe this. What should they do?
Speaker 1: What should they say?
Speaker 2: Something that I think women, you know, could do better, right,
Speaker 2: and and sort of practice is like being being less
Speaker 2: people pleasing, right, and being less focused on making the
Speaker 2: other person comfortable over their own comfort. Right. So I
Speaker 2: think that if you're not having a good time, if
Speaker 2: you're bored, don't hide it, you know, because I think
Speaker 2: so many times, especially with think when I was younger,
Speaker 2: I would just kind of like still keep like a
Speaker 2: smile and like just again keep throwing questions even though
Speaker 2: I was pissed. And Yeah, like I noticed that with
Speaker 2: age and with time, Like if I did act the
Speaker 2: way that I felt, which was like I'm a little
Speaker 2: bored right now, I'd like look down at the menu
Speaker 2: or look at my I wouldn't look at my phone,
Speaker 2: like I wouldn't do something as rude as that, but
Speaker 2: sort of like not act super interested if I'm not
Speaker 2: super interested in your answer at this point, I think
Speaker 2: that would be like my recommendation of just being like truthful.
Speaker 1: We've established that this is happening in like people's dating lives,
Speaker 1: but it also seems to be a phenomenon in conversations
Speaker 1: from one man to another man like who are friends?
Speaker 1: And I'm curious do do men and women behave differently
Speaker 1: in conversation? Like do we have different goals?
Speaker 2: Goals?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: What has your experience and your expertise told you about
Speaker 1: that kind of dynamic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this you know concept that women tend to
Speaker 2: have face to face friendships and men have uh sort
Speaker 2: of side to side friendships. So it's the idea that
Speaker 2: you know, women usually will tend to go to brunch together,
Speaker 2: go to dinner, you know, do get smoothie and be
Speaker 2: face to face and really be connecting, I think in
Speaker 2: a more intimate way. And men tend to go see
Speaker 2: you know, like a basketball game, or they go to
Speaker 2: the bar and they're sitting at the bar right so
Speaker 2: they're not facing each other. They're actually like shoulder to shoulder.
Speaker 2: And so the yeah, level of intimacy I think is
Speaker 2: is very often different if you're engaging from that, you
Speaker 2: know perspective. So I think that it is harder for
Speaker 2: men to go deep, you know, with other men.
Speaker 1: One thing you said that kind of blew my mind
Speaker 1: is that concept of face to face versus side by side,
Speaker 1: because now I'm like thinking back on like most of
Speaker 1: my friendships with men, and it is like we're always
Speaker 1: there's like some central thing happening that we're both experiencing
Speaker 1: versus you know, sitting across from each other at a
Speaker 1: table and talking. We'll be seeing it watching a game
Speaker 1: or a movie or something like that.
Speaker 2: Do you think it would be weird if you were like,
Speaker 2: do you want to get dinner instead? Like, do you
Speaker 2: think that that would be difficult?
Speaker 1: There are a few people, a few men in my
Speaker 1: life who I could go to dinner with or go
Speaker 1: grab a drink where we're sitting across from each other,
Speaker 1: but like the vast majority, you know, I would be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there needs to be a basketball game. Why?
Speaker 2: Why? Why? I think is it safer?
Speaker 7: Like when you're at a dinner, it's like you and
Speaker 7: the other that is the entertainment for tonight. And if
Speaker 7: you don't have anything to say, you can't just be like, well,
Speaker 7: we're just going to be silent and watch this thing happening.
Speaker 6: I can't just like list basketball players. Yeah, well you can.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's this sort of ranking, right that is inherently
Speaker 2: there in all of these conversations that somehow like female
Speaker 2: friendship is sort of better than that male friendship, right
Speaker 2: because it's more intimate because it's face to face. And
Speaker 2: I think that there are also downsides to some of
Speaker 2: the I think female friendships are like very intense. I
Speaker 2: don't want to say I don't want to talk about
Speaker 2: how I'm feeling right now, Like there's a lot of
Speaker 2: heavy things going on and I don't really and I
Speaker 2: know that if I meet up with a female friend,
Speaker 2: she's going to ask me how I'm doing, She's gonna
Speaker 2: ask me follow up questions. She's if I just like
Speaker 2: brush it off and give her a vague, you know,
Speaker 2: superficial answer, like it's probably not going to be enough.
Speaker 2: And I think that there are also downsides to the intensity,
Speaker 2: where you know, they're like there's way more friendship breakups
Speaker 2: with women, like you'll very rarely, like like there's a
Speaker 2: whole Roman Empire friend right that men think about the
Speaker 2: Roman Empire like so often. And this guy like asked
Speaker 2: his girlfriend, like, what's your Roman Empire? And she was like,
Speaker 2: my ex best friend, and like every woman was like, yes,
Speaker 2: like god's my Roman Empire because we all And I think,
Speaker 2: like men don't necessarily like have an ex best friend,
Speaker 2: but like almost every woman does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this kind of consensus that it's a lot
Speaker 1: easier for two men to become friends than it is
Speaker 1: for women. But that actually makes sense if the depth
Speaker 1: of that friendship is very surface level. It feels like
Speaker 1: Toddler's becoming friends versus a very intentional interaction that you
Speaker 1: want to have.
Speaker 7: It's like you're at the you know, like you're at
Speaker 7: the park and you're like, well, we both like this
Speaker 7: slide friends, Yeah, let's meet up and like go down
Speaker 7: the slide. And then sometimes we won't like go down
Speaker 7: the slide for you know, a couple of months. But
Speaker 7: that's fine because I don't expect to do anything with
Speaker 7: you besides like going down the slide, Whereas.
Speaker 2: With women, it's like, why haven't you gone down the slide?
Speaker 2: Why aren't you here? Like are you mad at me? Like,
Speaker 2: let's talk about it, let's meet up outside of the slide,
Speaker 2: like it just would be Again, it's very I would
Speaker 2: never like ever want to trade places, but I like,
Speaker 2: I really value those friendships. They're so they're so intimate,
Speaker 2: and I think sometimes actually like female friendships are so
Speaker 2: rich and so intimate and you feel so supported that
Speaker 2: it can make relationships with men harder because you're like,
Speaker 2: no man will ever compare right, And in a way,
Speaker 2: I think that it's important for women to not compare
Speaker 2: right like that. We I think we do again not
Speaker 2: to generalize it all men are one way or all
Speaker 2: women are one way, but I do think that men, yeah,
Speaker 2: relate in different ways and will provide, you know, different
Speaker 2: things to women. In our relationships than like female friendships
Speaker 2: are supposed to.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when it comes to kind of this central question,
Speaker 1: there is this socio linguist named Deborah Tannen who kind
Speaker 1: of offers up one explanation, which is that the goals
Speaker 1: that men have in conversation are different than the goals
Speaker 1: that women have in conversation. And you touched on this
Speaker 1: a little bit, but she she mentions that men are
Speaker 1: trying to exhibit knowledge and skill storytelling, joking, or imparting information,
Speaker 1: whereas women are more often trying to develop connections and
Speaker 1: discover similarities. I wanted to ask you, like, how accurate
Speaker 1: does that sound to you? Is that that? Has that
Speaker 1: been your experience in your in your research?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love I love her as a researcher, I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: she provides really interesting insights and and certainly yeah, like
Speaker 2: and again, if you think about how we reward women
Speaker 2: and men in our society, men are rewarded by, you know,
Speaker 2: against status, right, like how much money do you have
Speaker 2: or how successful are you? How much knowledge do you have? Right?
Speaker 2: So in conversations, of course you're going to be focused
Speaker 2: on providing that, right or that will be a priority, Right,
Speaker 2: when you're entering conversations, and for women, you know, it's
Speaker 2: it's not as much status but more Yeah, are you
Speaker 2: nurturing right? Are you able to care for people? Are
Speaker 2: you able to connect with people? Or do people like you? Right?
Speaker 2: And I think that that is why we come into
Speaker 2: conversations very differently. And actually men and women can be punished,
Speaker 2: right if they do what is expected of the opposite gender. Right,
Speaker 2: if I were to come into a conversation and just
Speaker 2: talk about all my accomplishments and like try and prove
Speaker 2: that I'm.
Speaker 5: Better than you.
Speaker 2: Again, I'm not saying that when men do that it's
Speaker 2: like super attractive to everybody, but it's definitely of transgression,
Speaker 2: right of how women are supposed to act. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not just that we have those like proclivities, but
Speaker 2: that we are rewarded, right socially for you know, indulging
Speaker 2: in those proclivities and like and sort of engaging in
Speaker 2: those dynamics. I think that we're moving towards definition of
Speaker 2: masculinity that is like much more empathetic and or just
Speaker 2: in general, I think our society is more interested in
Speaker 2: like EQ than IQ. Our workplaces certainly reward EQ more
Speaker 2: than IQ, and so I do think we're moving in
Speaker 2: that direction, but I think men are still, you know,
Speaker 2: sort of stuck between an old and a new model
Speaker 2: and like adjusting to that.
Speaker 1: So we've learned that men, or heterosexual men at least,
Speaker 1: are simply kind of socialized to extract certain things from conversations,
Speaker 1: and those things differ greatly to what women are trying
Speaker 1: to extract from conversations. But one thing that Noah mentioned
Speaker 1: earlier in this episode that struck me is that sometimes
Speaker 1: when he's talking to another man, he doesn't necessarily want
Speaker 1: to put that person into this vulnerable situation where where
Speaker 1: they feel like they should share something even if they
Speaker 1: don't want to.
Speaker 6: I think that's what it is, where it's like, I
Speaker 6: don't want to put you in a position where you
Speaker 6: feel weird or like I'm trying even though it's like
Speaker 6: normal information and't I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if you asked
Speaker 6: that follow up upon me, But I don't want to
Speaker 6: be the person putting you there.
Speaker 2: But it's also that putting a man into in a
Speaker 2: vulnerable quote unquote position has different implications than putting a
Speaker 2: woman in a vulnerable position. Right, if I were to
Speaker 2: see yeah, female friend cry or tell me that she's
Speaker 2: yeah hurting, and for me to'd be like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: what's going on? Like, you know, and for her to
Speaker 2: be emotional or be vulnerable like that's not a threat
Speaker 2: to her gender identity. It's not a threat to it's
Speaker 2: it's not transgressive, right, like in a way that it
Speaker 2: is for men right to be vulnerable. And so I
Speaker 2: think that a lot of men. I really appreciate you
Speaker 2: saying that, because I hear that a lot. Right. If
Speaker 2: I did that to a female friend, it's because I
Speaker 2: don't give a shit, Like it literally would just be
Speaker 2: like mean, right, Like I would have to like literally
Speaker 2: hate her do that. But when a guy does it,
Speaker 2: it has a whole there's a whole other intention there behind,
Speaker 2: or a whole other like motivation, and uh, it's and
Speaker 2: it's a different thing, you know, because of how honestly
Speaker 2: like dangerous it can be for a guy to be
Speaker 2: vulnerable in uh you know, and and that men don't
Speaker 2: men don't necessarily want to put another man in that situation,
Speaker 2: not because they don't care, because they care about them, right,
Speaker 2: So it's out of love sometimes that I think you
Speaker 2: pull back.
Speaker 1: So that's actually a perfect segue into this segment that
Speaker 1: we want to do after the break. Basically, Devin, Noah
Speaker 1: and I would like to think that we know each
Speaker 1: other pretty well, partially because we do ask each other
Speaker 1: follow up questions. But we want to put that to
Speaker 1: the test, and so, Liz, we're gonna ask you to
Speaker 1: come up with three things that you think good friends
Speaker 1: should know about each other, and then the three of
Speaker 1: us are going to take that quiz and see how
Speaker 1: we fare. Okay, but that's after the break. Welcome to
Speaker 1: a game show titled do Manny, Noah and Devin know
Speaker 1: literally one single thing about each other?
Speaker 8: Live?
Speaker 1: We're here with special guests Liz Plank. Why don't we
Speaker 1: go ahead and get started with question number one?
Speaker 2: I feel like you should know your best friend's middle name.
Speaker 1: I think, yes, we're already losing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1: I'm sweating basic. So why don't we start in the
Speaker 1: in the order of how we say the name show? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I'll go first. You guys gotta have to guess
Speaker 1: my middle name, okay, or do you know my middle name?
Speaker 3: I thought I did, but now I don't.
Speaker 1: Well, this one's already hard because my family is from Eritrea,
Speaker 1: and the naming convention there is so much different than
Speaker 1: it is in the Western world. Basically, you don't have
Speaker 1: a family name necessarily, you do like your lineage.
Speaker 5: You get your name.
Speaker 1: Your middle name is your dad's name, and your last
Speaker 1: name is your grandfather's name. And so my dad's name
Speaker 1: is blank blank Fidel, and growing up, we were hanging
Speaker 1: out at his auto repair shop, Fidel Auto Repair, and
Speaker 1: I've been using that as kind of my professional stage name,
Speaker 1: even though the way it works in Eritrea is that
Speaker 1: my middle name is my dad's name and my last
Speaker 1: name is my grandfather's name, which is Oakbosgi. But take
Speaker 1: all of that and throw it out the window, because
Speaker 1: my dad decided to buck the lineage trend and give
Speaker 1: me a middle name. I'm not sure if I've ever
Speaker 1: told you guys this. It starts with a B.
Speaker 3: Benjamin Yeah, yeah, Well it's.
Speaker 1: Pronounced differently exactly ben yam.
Speaker 5: Okay, Well yeah, we had no shot.
Speaker 1: That Yeah all right, No, uh, isn't it something like
Speaker 1: Clark or something like that. It's something that's way more.
Speaker 9: Let's just start with I don't want to say it,
Speaker 9: but b oh is it also it's.
Speaker 1: Not Benjamin, is it? Holy shit? All right, we are
Speaker 1: failing terribly.
Speaker 3: I know that's funny.
Speaker 1: Damn all right, Devin.
Speaker 5: Devon's already got two first names.
Speaker 3: You guys should kind of notice one. I know.
Speaker 6: I feel like I definitely will have known it once
Speaker 6: I hear it.
Speaker 7: There's a I will say there's a celebrity connection, not
Speaker 7: actually not why actually yes, but why we've talked about it.
Speaker 1: Devin James.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, I like Jordan.
Speaker 1: Devin James, and just for the listeners, the three of
Speaker 1: us are huge fans of Kevin James.
Speaker 3: We've seen him live and.
Speaker 1: So wow, that's hilarious. I don't think I knew that,
Speaker 1: all right, So Liz would be pretty disappointed in us
Speaker 1: so far.
Speaker 3: Hey, we got it right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, but now I'm actually gonna remember this.
Speaker 1: The problem is we just didn't know that.
Speaker 3: But it's like middle names are tough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't come up really no, okay.
Speaker 2: Number two, they're astrological signs, like I feel like you
Speaker 2: need to know which kails it, you know their birthday.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know the signs either, but vague I think
Speaker 1: I can get your guys' birthday. So let's let's start
Speaker 1: with mine.
Speaker 3: Yours is this is kind of She's unfair.
Speaker 1: It did just happen, but the party was not on
Speaker 1: the day.
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, the eleventh.
Speaker 1: Al right, so we got Manny all right. Noah is
Speaker 1: August the first, who almost aid third? And Devin is
Speaker 1: September seventh.
Speaker 3: That's correct.
Speaker 1: Wow, killed it all right? Liz not happy for question
Speaker 1: number one. Liz very happy for question number two. Question
Speaker 1: number three is kind of spicy.
Speaker 2: You should know who their exes like, who their like
Speaker 2: last breakup was with. You should be able to give
Speaker 2: a one line at least about why the breakup happened.
Speaker 2: That's If you can't, I'm gonna die. Are you serious.
Speaker 1: Previous breakup and why?
Speaker 5: And why? So?
Speaker 1: And now are we considering literally the last person you
Speaker 1: called a partner?
Speaker 3: Or that's what I was going to ask. Is this
Speaker 3: a situationship?
Speaker 6: Very based on you know, I would say more serious?
Speaker 1: All right, so we'll start with me.
Speaker 3: I have no idea.
Speaker 1: It's not a trick question, it's it should be easy.
Speaker 7: Yeah, wow, I thought there had to be someone someone else.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, okay, why I have no idea?
Speaker 1: I mean this one, this one's hard too, because it's
Speaker 1: like there's not one reason.
Speaker 5: Yeah, why where do I beg give?
Speaker 1: It's actually one hundred. I mean, I don't think that
Speaker 1: it was one person not a good match. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think for a long we were young and stupid.
Speaker 3: What year was that?
Speaker 1: Actually I remember it vividly because it was during the
Speaker 1: World Cup, so it's twenty eighteen, broken, I remember, Holy shit,
Speaker 1: I remember the eighteen Yeah, whoa.
Speaker 6: I guess that makes sense if then you had a
Speaker 6: couple of years of nothing and COVID.
Speaker 1: It wasn't nothing, it was Yeah. I remember of the
Speaker 1: World Cup being like kind of saving my ass in
Speaker 1: terms of just like, oh, a big breakup happened. But
Speaker 1: now I'm yeah, I'm a huge fan of the beautiful game.
Speaker 1: All right, all right, Noah, is this the obvious one?
Speaker 3: Probably?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Now I'm blinking on her name.
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of blinking on her name is Yeah.
Speaker 1: The why, to the best of my recollection, I don't know.
Speaker 1: She just kind of didn't seem about it that life.
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I don't think we saw an eye on
Speaker 9: what we wanted at the time.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, it ran its.
Speaker 1: Scores as well. Fair fair enough, Devin, We all know
Speaker 1: this one because it was big news.
Speaker 2: This is.
Speaker 1: Correct, Okay, the reason why though, I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: there's a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3: There wasn't like a big fight or anything, so it's
Speaker 3: not as fun.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was a good one, because this is the issue.
Speaker 7: I think the issue with this is we're we gave
Speaker 7: ourselves the easy way out. What do you mean because
Speaker 7: we said relationships in that situationships?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, situationships.
Speaker 7: I think if we asked, she would know all her
Speaker 7: friends sitationships.
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, that's true.
Speaker 6: And I'll also say it's interesting because like we're saying
Speaker 6: things but like that was never a conversation we had.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Like I remember.
Speaker 5: You texted us, Yeah, you told us he broke up.
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I think we were both like, oh, damn,
Speaker 9: that's crazy.
Speaker 1: That's crazy. I think in the text I remember saying
Speaker 1: something stupid like damn end of an era or something.
Speaker 3: That was pretty good. Season finale.
Speaker 1: Just when you thought this episode was over, Liz had
Speaker 1: one more challenge for us.
Speaker 2: When's the last time that like one of you three
Speaker 2: shared uh difficulty, like a challenging situation, a relationship issue,
Speaker 2: a work issue.
Speaker 1: Well, it's Funny you mentioned earlier that men don't give
Speaker 1: themselves a chance to go deeper because they're always watching
Speaker 1: like a basketball game. Because Noah and I literally made
Speaker 1: plans to watch the Lakers at a bar after this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I won.
Speaker 6: Not be sharing any personal information out there.
Speaker 2: Why don't you guys share a personal each share a
Speaker 2: personal struggle that's going on for you, and then you
Speaker 2: can talk about how it felt.
Speaker 1: All right, well, then I can go first. Mine is
Speaker 1: this this medicine I've been taking?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so last year.
Speaker 1: Hey, I won't bore you guys with the actual conversation,
Speaker 1: but I will summarize it. Basically. I talked about the
Speaker 1: complications I'm having with some medication taking. Devin shared that
Speaker 1: he's trying to find a balance between work that he
Speaker 1: loves and work that gets him paid, and Noah shared
Speaker 1: that he's been trying to identify what his priorities are
Speaker 1: these days. The conversation lasted about thirty minutes, and then
Speaker 1: we talked about what it felt like to share these
Speaker 1: struggles with each other. How did that feel, guys sharing
Speaker 1: your personal struggles with the boys. I guess I can
Speaker 1: go first. If obviously it's like good to kind of
Speaker 1: get something off your chest or say something very personal.
Speaker 1: It feels therapeutic, YadA YadA. What I just said wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily like a secret or something that I should have
Speaker 1: told you but hadn't yet. So I kind of feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: if we were bowling and I had a drink or something,
Speaker 1: I might be complaining about that, and then yeah, it
Speaker 1: would have come up naturally. There can only be good
Speaker 1: to gain from like sharing that with someone. But how
Speaker 1: did you guys feel?
Speaker 6: Obviously, because of the construction of this, it's a little
Speaker 6: different because like, yeah, not that we're forced to do it,
Speaker 6: but it's like it's being set up in a different way.
Speaker 6: We're on mics, I mean, but you know, and yeah,
Speaker 6: I don't think it was like I'm not pouring out
Speaker 6: the depths of my soul, you know. But at the
Speaker 6: same time, it's like, well, these aren't things that we
Speaker 6: really would talk about normally. I don't think I would
Speaker 6: want every conversation to be like this. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 6: there's a balance, I guess, But I think, you know,
Speaker 6: sprinkling in a little bore wouldn't hurt me.
Speaker 1: I guess. It's also the way you talk about something
Speaker 1: where like if I had brought up the medicine, if
Speaker 1: I was like a couple of beers deep or something,
Speaker 1: I'd be talking about in a completely different way than
Speaker 1: like sharing that what I'm struggling with, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so it does help, I guess to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's what what's going on? Yeah, versus you know, just
Speaker 1: shouting at someone over loud music.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it was it's nice to do.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll probably be sharing more in MI nend or
Speaker 6: trying to keep the door open a little bit, versus
Speaker 6: being like, oh that sucks, yeah crazy, well, like my
Speaker 6: chicken tenders already, you know, like you know what I mean,
Speaker 6: Let's have some fun and try to just be a
Speaker 6: little more open or receptive to that in case that
Speaker 6: is what someone's looking for.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, in that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly it did prove kind of Liz's hypothesis,
Speaker 1: but I guess it's not necessarily hers. But she was
Speaker 1: talking about how we're just kind of socialized differently than women,
Speaker 1: and we're socialized to want different things from conversations. It
Speaker 1: never occurred to me to tell you guys that medicine thing,
Speaker 1: because I don't know why. Maybe in my head, I'm like,
Speaker 1: they don't why would they care about this? Or like
Speaker 1: but yeah, just never occurred to me.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I agree with No, this didn't feel like a
Speaker 7: groundbreaking like, yeah, I don't know this is their right
Speaker 7: circumstances for us to have.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah we would, Yeah, and I don't know that
Speaker 1: it was of the.
Speaker 7: I do think to Know's point, it will be in
Speaker 7: the back of my head now because it seems like
Speaker 7: we're all open to talking about stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, it's just like.
Speaker 7: We don't want to prod so it puts more of
Speaker 7: the like the person telling the thing just has to
Speaker 7: volunteer more information. Yeah, that's true in our dynamic, like
Speaker 7: that's the only way we're gonna Like I think if
Speaker 7: one of us volunteered more information, then we would.
Speaker 3: Ask more questions.
Speaker 9: But pretty surface level, we're just sort of like, cool,
Speaker 9: Yeah that's all you match, mat Yeah exactly. So I
Speaker 9: think after this, yeah, I'll maybe be more proactive about
Speaker 9: if it's a thing I want to talk about, opening
Speaker 9: the door a bit more like.
Speaker 6: Yeah, next time Devin breaks up with a girlfriend of
Speaker 6: eight years, I'm gonna ask.
Speaker 1: Why thanks for listening to our confessions. This was no
Speaker 1: Such Thing by Manny, Noah and Devin. The theme song
Speaker 1: was produced by me Manny. Thank you so much to
Speaker 1: our guest Liz Plank, whose book For the Love of
Speaker 1: Men is out everywhere. If you thought that this conversation
Speaker 1: was even a little bit insightful, you're gonna love that book.
Speaker 1: If you like the show, we're asking you to give
Speaker 1: us a five star rating on wherever you're listening. We're
Speaker 1: doing this show by ourselves and could use every little
Speaker 1: bit of help from people who enjoy it. And also
Speaker 1: be sure to subscribe to our substack at No Such
Speaker 1: Thing dot show. We'll see you next week.