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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Curic, and this is abortion the body Politic,

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Speaker 1: Part four at the Supreme Court today an historic upheaval.

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Speaker 1: Brow is dead. The Conservative Court world six to three

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Speaker 1: Friday to uphold a Republican backed Mississippi law that bands

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Speaker 1: abortion after fifteen weeks of pregnancy, and five of those

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Speaker 1: justices went even further, voting to overturn Roe versus Wade itself.

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Speaker 1: And the question of abortion has been returned to the states.

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Speaker 1: After the Supreme Court took away the federal rights an abortion.

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Speaker 1: On June, abortion rights supporters flooded city streets from Seattle

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Speaker 1: to Boston and right here in New York City about it. Already,

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Speaker 1: a delusive litigation is underway. Thirteen states have abortion bands

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Speaker 1: in place, designed to be triggered and take effect immediately

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Speaker 1: after row Fell as if this recording. At least six states,

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Speaker 1: including Missouri, have begun to enforce their trigger bands to

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Speaker 1: prohibit abortion entirely, but the anti abortion wins are not

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Speaker 1: all immediate. A judge has granted a restraining order blocking

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Speaker 1: Utah's abortion band from being enforced. At least two states

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Speaker 1: have temporarily blocked enforcement of their trigger law bands on abortion.

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Speaker 1: In the first three parts of this series, we traced

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Speaker 1: how we got to this point, because the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: decision didn't happen in a vacuum, and in fact, the

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Speaker 1: dismantling of Row is still one moment in the long

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Speaker 1: arc of reproductive rights in this country. There's still a

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Speaker 1: way to go, and part of that journey is understanding

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Speaker 1: how we tell stories about abortion in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Today we're examining how abortion has been explored and reflected

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Speaker 1: in popular culture and Hollywood, whether we realize it or not.

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Speaker 1: The movies we have loved and the TV shows we

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Speaker 1: watch represent the collective imagination of our culture at any

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Speaker 1: particular moment in time. Filmmaker Gillian Ropespierre directed the ten

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Speaker 1: brom com Obvious Child, which is still held up eight

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Speaker 1: years later as a movie that got abortion right. We

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Speaker 1: happened to talk to Gillian on the day Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade was overturned before we talk about the role of

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Speaker 1: storytelling and conveying messages about abortion. Gillian, what was your

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Speaker 1: reaction when you heard the news? Yeah, Um, I'm an

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Speaker 1: easy cry, so I feel like I'm getting just you know,

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Speaker 1: we knew it was coming. It wasn't that a total surprise. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I was sitting in room with my writing partner

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Speaker 1: this morning, and she's a woman, and uh, we stopped.

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Speaker 1: We just looked at each other and started crying. UM,

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Speaker 1: and we couldn't. You don't finish our work. But I'm

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Speaker 1: glad we had each other. Um. And it's devasity, it's

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Speaker 1: good it. It feels like after the tears came just

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Speaker 1: like anger and pain. Um. But also I'm fueled by

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Speaker 1: I'll show you that's sort of why I even made

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Speaker 1: this movie in the first place. So I do feel

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Speaker 1: like after the tears and and I will work with

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Speaker 1: the anger to to continue to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: protest and how to get out of this mook. I'm

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Speaker 1: trus what you think Hollywood's responsibility is and what it

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Speaker 1: can do to to change hearts and minds and inform

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Speaker 1: people about the importance of reproductive rights. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think just to bring it back to sort of

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Speaker 1: the story of how I made Obvious Child and how

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Speaker 1: I got it made. I made it outside of the

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Speaker 1: studio system. I didn't ask for that permission. But um,

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Speaker 1: the reason why we made it is because it almost

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Speaker 1: felt like a dare all these films that that came

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Speaker 1: out in the mid two thousands about um, young women

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Speaker 1: having unplanned pregnancies, and they never even mentioned the word abortion.

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Speaker 1: Um and and it was a nerving to to watch

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Speaker 1: those films, and it made it a silent enemy. And

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Speaker 1: I just my whole life, I've kept on waiting for

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Speaker 1: a film where um they made that they gave abortion

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Speaker 1: a happy ending. You know, I love Dirty Dancing and

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Speaker 1: I love Fast Times at Ridgemont High, and those are

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Speaker 1: movies that I watched as a child, and Dirty Dancing,

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Speaker 1: uh kind of was a scary depiction. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was true to the time. But I'm a little kid

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Speaker 1: in the eighties and I was terrified. Uh there was

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Speaker 1: blo she almost died. Um In Fast Times, it was

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Speaker 1: you know, she Jennifer Jason Lee's character had no reservations

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Speaker 1: about making that choice, which I thought was cool. But

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Speaker 1: my young brain only took away from that movie that

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Speaker 1: losing your virginity hurts, and guys suck and it's cool

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Speaker 1: to have an older brother. Um. But when I had

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Speaker 1: my abortion, I couldn't help but think of all of

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Speaker 1: these movies, these awful depictions, and yeah, I was scared,

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Speaker 1: and did I think I was did across my mind

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Speaker 1: that I could die. Yeah, but that was not you know,

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Speaker 1: the reality is I had a very nice abortion. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't met with anti choice protesters or mean doctors or

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Speaker 1: unsupportive parents are partner. It was not traumatizing, and I

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Speaker 1: was relief. Um And and all of those movies, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of scared me. What about Knocked Up

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Speaker 1: in Juno for example? Where did you see the narrative

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Speaker 1: of those movies? Not kind of fulfilling your view of abortion? Right? Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm also a huge fan of rom coms. I love them,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like those movies were the ones that

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Speaker 1: were daring me to try to make a rom colm

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Speaker 1: with an abortion that had an happy ending, Like I

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Speaker 1: dare you, idiot, try it. You're going to fail because

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Speaker 1: because no one wants to see that movie. And so

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Speaker 1: that's sort of what spurred Obvious Child was to try

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Speaker 1: to make a film where the abortion is the catalyst

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Speaker 1: for abudding romance and and to show that in a

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Speaker 1: movie with an abortion can be both funny and poignant

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Speaker 1: and entertaining. Um and it could you know, show positive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no stigma or shame is involved this. You know. Donna,

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Speaker 1: our main character had an abortion, without feeling guilty or traumatized,

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Speaker 1: and that was similar to my experience. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: me a little briefly for people who haven't seen it,

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Speaker 1: who probably will head to to YouTube to see it now,

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Speaker 1: But can you tell me a little more about the plot,

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Speaker 1: just so we can give people an idea? Yes, so um.

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Speaker 1: It's about a young woman in her twenties named Donna

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Speaker 1: Stern played by the amazing Jenny Slate and Donna Stern

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Speaker 1: is a born and raised New Yorker who's a stand

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Speaker 1: up comedian and her boyfriend dumps her and she has

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Speaker 1: a one night stand with the very handsome and tender

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Speaker 1: Jake Lacey. Uh. She realizes she had is pregnant and

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Speaker 1: she decides to have an abortion, and the movie sort

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Speaker 1: of shows her reeling from the pain of a breakup

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out will she or won't She

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Speaker 1: tell Jake Lacey's character it's never, um, will she won't

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Speaker 1: she have the abortion? Maybe you want to tell him, no, why,

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Speaker 1: why you don't owe him anything? You don't even know

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Speaker 1: this guy. Maybe he just deserts to know that like

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Speaker 1: this happened, that I'm not a psycho and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get an abortion um, and it's framed in a

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Speaker 1: you know, romantic comedy inspired by uh, you know, all

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Speaker 1: of the films from from my childhood that I devoured

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Speaker 1: and you know, the girl always gets the guy, but

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Speaker 1: now she also has her future. Unfortunately, I feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, because we we missed, we we were we

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell everyone's story, and obviously, child we can only

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Speaker 1: tell one woman's story. And Donna came from privilege, and

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Speaker 1: you know, had all this support. She lived in New York,

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Speaker 1: so she at access, and so you know, the hopes

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Speaker 1: were that other stories could sort of burst from this.

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Speaker 1: I really thought that there is going to be this

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Speaker 1: giant change in in movies in the depiction of of

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Speaker 1: unplanned pregnancy and abortion. And I think there were you know,

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Speaker 1: there's some great films m Eliza Hitman, who's a pal

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Speaker 1: of mine, never, rarely sometimes always. I just watched I'm

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Speaker 1: Pregnant yesterday for the first time, and I thought that

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Speaker 1: was really great film. You know, there's so many stories

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Speaker 1: to be told. What now for Hollywood? Do you think

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Speaker 1: this will create a whole new um interest in films

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Speaker 1: about reproductive rights? I sure hope. So it feels like

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Speaker 1: we're too late, But I sure hope so, because um,

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Speaker 1: we have to continue to make art and tell us

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Speaker 1: to worries that don't silence our experiences because I think, um,

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Speaker 1: I think silence is the greatest weapon. But I also

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Speaker 1: uh don't think Hollywood in the studio system is built

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Speaker 1: to take risks. I UM, I personally don't think telling

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Speaker 1: these stories are risky. I think we've seen in a

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Speaker 1: lot of films that these stories work well. You know,

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Speaker 1: that can be both entertaining and also important. My name's

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Speaker 1: page and I was twenty nine when I had my abortion.

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Speaker 1: My abortion story begins with mating my boyfriend Charlie. In

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Speaker 1: the summer. We started dating and absolutely fell over hill,

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Speaker 1: head over heels in love um and practiced very safe sex,

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Speaker 1: ironic lay and we felt pregnant about two months in.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting because when I read the pregnancy result,

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Speaker 1: I felt excitement as my first feeling. I told him

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Speaker 1: right away and he was excited and so very um

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Speaker 1: you know, a nice emotion at the start that ended

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Speaker 1: up really challenging the decision making process. Um. And really

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Speaker 1: I had very little to go off. I couldn't talk

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Speaker 1: to my friends about it or my family. I had

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Speaker 1: never known anyone who had ever gotten an abortion. All

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Speaker 1: I had to go off was what I had understood

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Speaker 1: of it from popular culture references, and for me growing up,

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Speaker 1: that was the movie Dirty Dancing, where it was essentially

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Speaker 1: a girl living on the streets who gets butchered in

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Speaker 1: a garage. I've you said, he wasn't real empty the

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Speaker 1: guy had dirty knife. In the folding cable I could

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Speaker 1: hear was screaming in the hallway, or Juno, who she

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Speaker 1: gets shamed out of it. Your baby probably has a

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Speaker 1: beating heart, you know, it can feel pain. And he

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Speaker 1: dos fingernails, finger nails really and one day, you know,

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Speaker 1: we go pick up groceries. I'd be like, okay, now

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Speaker 1: we can do it. And then in the next aisle

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Speaker 1: he would say my job don't pay enough. I don't

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Speaker 1: see how he can do it. And then the next

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Speaker 1: style I would say, well, maybe I can go back

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Speaker 1: to Australia, and then the next stile was what we

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Speaker 1: can't give up every It was just so volatile in

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Speaker 1: terms of decision making, because what I learned from movies

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Speaker 1: is that if you can do it, you should do it.

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Speaker 1: I have a personality where if something makes me scared,

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Speaker 1: I'll try to run really almost lean into it, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's moving overseas or pursuing a career that I

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Speaker 1: don't think I'm ready for X of imposter syndrome or

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Speaker 1: whatever else, or running the New York City Marathon. And

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Speaker 1: what my therapist actually shared, what she said, you know, yes,

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Speaker 1: but you were your time to prepare or to get

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Speaker 1: comfortable with the choice. And she said, you didn't turn

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Speaker 1: away from this because you were scared. You turned away

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Speaker 1: from this was because it wasn't a choice. Um, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't your choice. I chose to go the medicine route

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Speaker 1: because I wanted to avoid a procedure um and you know,

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Speaker 1: going under, whether it's a general anesthetic or a local anesthetic.

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Speaker 1: And this to me felt like I could do in

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Speaker 1: the privacy of my home. It would still have the

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Speaker 1: same results. Um, it just seemed like more appropriate choice

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Speaker 1: for where I was, at least in the pregnancy. I

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Speaker 1: think even though I had clear direction, it's still such

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Speaker 1: an overwhelming moment that I had times where I was like, wait,

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Speaker 1: did I write that down correctly? Have I taken an

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Speaker 1: hour to early hour too late? Because you just felt

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Speaker 1: like you've got a lot of weight on this moment

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Speaker 1: um and then taking the tablets. It was like very

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Speaker 1: very very bad cramps. And it lasts some time, um,

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Speaker 1: and you are kind of alone. You're alone while it happens,

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Speaker 1: and when you're going back and forth to the bathroom,

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Speaker 1: and so it can feel a little bit lonely, but

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Speaker 1: you kind of get to a point where like, I

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Speaker 1: just need to get through and I want it done now.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy with my choice. I'm glad what I decided

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Speaker 1: to do. And it put a lot of things on

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Speaker 1: my radar, having children and having a family, potentially marriage

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Speaker 1: and what that really means to me. And so there's

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Speaker 1: gifts that have come out of it, and it's made

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Speaker 1: me really really UM. I can't ignore what's happening in

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Speaker 1: America and I'm a part of it. And I don't

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Speaker 1: want anyone to feel some of the bad feelings that

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Speaker 1: I experienced. And if I can be there for someone,

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Speaker 1: even strangers, I would want them to message me because

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Speaker 1: I don't. No one's alone. It's actually shocking how not

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Speaker 1: alone we are and how many people take this option.

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Speaker 1: After the break a comedy show about abortion, Hi, how

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Speaker 1: are you do you think? It's like a tin fabulous.

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Speaker 1: At the end of April, I went to see a

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Speaker 1: comedy show. It was at the historic Cherry Lane Theater

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Speaker 1: in a quaint little pocket of Manhattan's West Village. The

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Speaker 1: night we went, the show was still in previews, but

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Speaker 1: that didn't matter. It was a packed house. Hi everyone,

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Speaker 1: if you're here for Alison, leave me. The line starts

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Speaker 1: right here. Please have your baggy Gregy ready and off

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Speaker 1: stand your ticket. Thank you so much. It was called

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Speaker 1: Oh God, a show about abortion. The comedian is Alice

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Speaker 1: and leave. Thank you for being here, Thank you for

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Speaker 1: coming to what my dad calls my special show. Now.

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Speaker 1: My parents are super supportive. My mom texted me kill

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Speaker 1: it tonight. That was like, already did so why there's

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Speaker 1: a show I had an abortion three years ago. Thank you. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm still trying to lose the no baby weights. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna challenge. I'm not surprised that I needed an abortion.

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Speaker 1: I am surprised I needed one when I was old

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Speaker 1: enough to run for presidents That after the show, I

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Speaker 1: headed to the green room so Allison and I could

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Speaker 1: talk shop. I mean, oh God, how did you decide

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Speaker 1: to do a show about abortion? I really I it

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Speaker 1: kind of happened organically. I mean, obviously the experience happened

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Speaker 1: to me. It was not planned, but as a stand

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Speaker 1: up on somebody who just like writes about what happens

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Speaker 1: and what I see in the world and things I

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Speaker 1: think are funny, and I was like going through that experience,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, there's funny stuff here that isn't

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Speaker 1: the normal stand up abortion content. I feel like when

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Speaker 1: people get up and talk about abortion and stand up,

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Speaker 1: it's usually theoretical or someone liners. I feel like people

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Speaker 1: don't tell the whole story because like no one really

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Speaker 1: wants to sit in it that long, because it makes

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Speaker 1: people uncomfortable even though it shouldn't. So I wrote a

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Speaker 1: couple of jokes bombed so hard every time I told them,

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Speaker 1: like the first like five times, just getting up and

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Speaker 1: doing a ten or fifteen minutes set and in the

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Speaker 1: middle like trying to slip in this abortion material, and

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Speaker 1: like you could just you could feel people men crossing

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Speaker 1: their arms, just like really closing down. And it's like

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Speaker 1: it's because I wasn't confident and yet I was still

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Speaker 1: you know, new jokes are always kind of weaker just

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Speaker 1: because you're not ready to say them yet. And the

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Speaker 1: way that you do when they're done, also popping them

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a routine. That's sort of hard

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Speaker 1: thing to right. But I eventually got to a point

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Speaker 1: where that wasn't that hard because I like the jokes

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Speaker 1: that like, I had the confidence where people were like,

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Speaker 1: she's bringing this up and then being like we can,

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Speaker 1: She's going to guide us through this, like this is

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Speaker 1: not going to be awful. And so I kind of

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Speaker 1: started getting the material together and I had like five minutes,

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Speaker 1: and then I had ten minutes, and then I kept

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Speaker 1: being like, oh, this and this, and and I all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden I had like fifteen or twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: that worked, and I was like, well, if I could

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Speaker 1: do twenty, I could probably do an hour. I mean

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Speaker 1: that kind of insane ego logic where I'm yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can do anything, right. I went to Planned Parenthood in

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Speaker 1: Soho in New York City, the fancy downtown neighborhood, because

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Speaker 1: I'm a fancy bitch um, and I was nervous that

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Speaker 1: there would be protesters, just because in TV and film

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Speaker 1: and the news, I've always seen tons of protesters in

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Speaker 1: front of abortion clinics. I'm like, I don't like wire

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Speaker 1: hangers in my closet. I don't want them in front

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Speaker 1: of my healthcare clinics. Okay, But I went and there

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Speaker 1: were not like all, you know, there weren't all of

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Speaker 1: the crazy things that you would expect. There were just

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Speaker 1: like four old Catholic people standing across the street silently,

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Speaker 1: like it just looks like that painted American gothic twice,

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Speaker 1: but like less scary because they didn't even have a pitchfork.

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Speaker 1: Thank god. There is a much more intimidating force outside

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Speaker 1: of the Plan Parenthood and SOHO in New York that

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Speaker 1: is threatening women who are seeking abortions, and that is

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Speaker 1: across the street from Plan Parenthood there is a luxury

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Speaker 1: maternity wear store called Hatch. What who own is that?

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Speaker 1: Mike Pets Like, how did you determine what else you

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about? Because you talk obviously about growing up,

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Speaker 1: and it really becomes kind of a full social commentary

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Speaker 1: on your life in a way. I guess the most

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Speaker 1: natural way to tell this story is to like step

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Speaker 1: back and look at it from the bigger picture of like,

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Speaker 1: how do I feel about sex and abortion? And I started?

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Speaker 1: The thing that's changed the most since I started writing

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Speaker 1: it is like, what is this serious thing I'm saying?

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Speaker 1: And and what is the what is the come? Like?

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Speaker 1: What am I trying to tell people by telling them

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Speaker 1: about abortion? And it really because it happened to me

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Speaker 1: when I was so much older. The motherhood conversation with

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Speaker 1: myself was so real in a way that at five,

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Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have thought about that, and it would

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Speaker 1: and and it it impacts you know what people think

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Speaker 1: your choices are less like if you're and need an abortion,

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Speaker 1: no one's like and now she'll never be a mother,

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Speaker 1: Like she's made her choice. No, you have a whole

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Speaker 1: life of your fertility in front of you. But when

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Speaker 1: you're older, it kind of is this definitive decision. Women's

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Speaker 1: identity and motherhood are like so collapsed in our culture

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Speaker 1: that it's actually everything you do, every decision you make,

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Speaker 1: everything you do is kind of connected to this idea

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Speaker 1: and this identity. And that's terrible. But what's hard about

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Speaker 1: managing these fears about fertility is that, like there is

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Speaker 1: no kitchen timer on men's fertility, women's fertility is very set.

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Speaker 1: If you're a woman, you're and with all the eggs

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Speaker 1: you're ever going to have forever and if you're pregnant

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Speaker 1: with a daughter, all the eggs she's ever going to

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Speaker 1: have are already inside of you, which explains a lot

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Speaker 1: of our love of big purses, you know, just like

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Speaker 1: dig around. You're like, all right, phone, pea's wallet, Kleenex,

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Speaker 1: a Clementine from two and a half weeks ago, my eggs,

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Speaker 1: her eggs. All right, let's go out. We're ready. Men

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Speaker 1: create sperm throughout their lives. Men are creating sperm at

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Speaker 1: the rate that everline is creating unflattering pants constantly. Like okay,

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Speaker 1: to put it in context, Richard gear is seventy, his

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Speaker 1: wife is thirty six. We don't have time to get

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Speaker 1: into all of the problems with that relationship. But when

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Speaker 1: they have sex, she is the one that's worried that

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Speaker 1: she's not going to be able to be a parent

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Speaker 1: because she's too old. She is the one who is

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Speaker 1: worried the thirty six year old, not the seventy year old,

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Speaker 1: which is crazy because in every other context, he's the

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Speaker 1: one you're worried about walking downstairs eatings. What words we

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Speaker 1: culturally decided we don't say anymore. Why did you decide?

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Speaker 1: I mean, especially now, it's so prescient that this was

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Speaker 1: an important piece of work for you to do and

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Speaker 1: an important issue for you to tackle comedically. I just

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Speaker 1: feel like abortion gets such like a heavy hand in

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Speaker 1: pop culture so often, and it is always treated as

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Speaker 1: this like trauma, and I think it is for many

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Speaker 1: women who experience it, but it's not for everyone who

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Speaker 1: experiences it, and it doesn't have to be necessarily. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of the trauma is imposed by by

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Speaker 1: society because of the the morality that is imposed on

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Speaker 1: women who choose to terminate a pregnancy, yes, and also

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Speaker 1: the women who have to jump through way more hoops

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Speaker 1: to do it. I mentioned in the show, But like,

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Speaker 1: of course I'm an incredibly incredibly privileged woman in the

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Speaker 1: circumstance I had resource, says, I was in New York City, Like,

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Speaker 1: I did not have to drive hundreds of miles or

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Speaker 1: spend money I didn't have, Like it really was a

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Speaker 1: lot easier for me, yeah, or not more or not

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Speaker 1: be able to have an abortion all right, because you

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Speaker 1: just didn't have access and you had no choice exactly,

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Speaker 1: and so like, so much of that trauma is based

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Speaker 1: on the politics of abortion. But also I think that

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Speaker 1: there's just a lot of people with a narrative that

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Speaker 1: looks like mine, and I hadn't seen it reflected in

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Speaker 1: stand up. Very often when women talk about their bodies

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Speaker 1: on stage, it's inherently politicized. I've heard so many men

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Speaker 1: tell me so many things about their bodies into a

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Speaker 1: microphone and it never once gets a reaction of like,

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Speaker 1: but like when women do it all the time, it does.

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Speaker 1: And so I've heard like here and there people talk

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Speaker 1: about abortion a little in passing, just to be like

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Speaker 1: starting that conversation, and I was like, I think I

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Speaker 1: could tell the whole thing. Like I think laying out

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Speaker 1: every detail makes it seem so much more mundane because

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh, and then you do this, and then

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Speaker 1: you do this, and you had to get there like this,

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Speaker 1: and that, Like it makes it a task or like

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Speaker 1: an errand um when presented procedure, like removing a skin

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Speaker 1: tag or getting a colonoscopy, or like any of the

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Speaker 1: things that like we easily can joke about and depict

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Speaker 1: as not politicized and not traumas. And so I thought

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Speaker 1: I could do this. Probably I've said abortion more in

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Speaker 1: the last two years that I've said cumulatively in my

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Speaker 1: entire life, and it does get easier, and even just

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Speaker 1: talking about it like this or about the show with

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Speaker 1: a friend, like I'm finding that like there's just ease

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Speaker 1: to it, and like that's all that's my only goal

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Speaker 1: for well, my goal is like for it to be

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Speaker 1: funny first and foremost, and number two just be like,

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Speaker 1: can't we just talk about this more? Can't we all

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Speaker 1: just say this more? I had the incredible experience of

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Speaker 1: many times when I first started working out the show

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Speaker 1: in much smaller spaces where I was like, got off

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Speaker 1: stage and I was like, well, now I'm in the

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Speaker 1: crowd and we're all just hanging out because there's twelve

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Speaker 1: of us here, um many women who would come up

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Speaker 1: to me and just be like I had one too,

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Speaker 1: and just instantly like feel like from seeing it, like

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Speaker 1: the ability to share that in a way that I

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Speaker 1: don't know how often they share that. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like very often usually, And I'm like, well, if that's

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Speaker 1: what the show does, then that's like all I could

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Speaker 1: possibly wanted to do is for people to feel able

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Speaker 1: to tell someone me, a total stranger or like someone

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Speaker 1: in their life about an experience they had and not

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Speaker 1: feel bad about it. More on abortions, betrayal, and popular

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Speaker 1: culture right after this. So what kind of an impact

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Speaker 1: can film and TV have on shifting attitudes when it

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Speaker 1: comes to heated social issues. You can look to gay

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Speaker 1: rights for one example of the power of representation. I

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Speaker 1: remember waking up and realizing we were in bed naked

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Speaker 1: with each other, right because that happened? But what about abortion?

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Speaker 1: For more than a decade, a team of researchers out

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Speaker 1: of San Francisco have been trying to find out. My

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Speaker 1: name is Gretchen Sistem. I'm a sociologist at the University

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Speaker 1: of California, San Francisco in the Department of eccentric Skin,

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Speaker 1: Ecology and Reproductive Science UM, and I'm the lead investigator

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Speaker 1: for the Abortion on Screen program that studies how abortion

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Speaker 1: and reproductive decision making are portrayed in American film and television.

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Speaker 1: We started the program back in and the idea that

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Speaker 1: time was to to start looking more at culture change

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Speaker 1: and and and considering how abortion was part of our

430
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: pop cultural conversations. One of the earliest depictions that we

431
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: found as a silent film from nineteen sixteen called Where

432
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: Are My Children? UM. It was made by filmmaker Lois

433
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: Webber UM, who was herself a rarity at the time

434
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: as as a woman filmmaker in the nineteen tens. The

435
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: plot line is a bit convoluted, but it's it's effectively

436
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: about a district attorney who's prosecuting a physician UM who's

437
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: been performing abortions and has a patient die. And in

438
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: the process of this investigation, the district attorney discovers that

439
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: his wife has been kind of helping people find this provider,

440
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: and then he also discovers that his wife has had

441
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: abortions herself UM, which has led to her inability to

442
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: get pregnant. It's not a sort of revolutionary depiction by

443
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: any means. It just was the first one, right. It's

444
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: very it's very stigmatizing. It talks about abortions being very dangerous,

445
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: which it could often be at the time UM, but

446
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: it also relied on UM a lot of racist and

447
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: eugenicis ideas about both birth count role and an abortion.

448
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: The first abortion story that we saw on television was

449
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: UM the legal show The Defenders. The Defenders aired on

450
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: April two. The episode is about the trial of an

451
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: abortion provider, Mr Preston. In the past eight years, over

452
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: twenty thousand expected mothers have come into my office each

453
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: one of the morning an abortion twenty thousand. It's like

454
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: deeply stigmatizing, right. It sort of presents abortion as as

455
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: the choice of very desperate women. Um, the provider is

456
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: very clear that, like, he doesn't do abortions for some women,

457
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: for women who are, you know, too promiscuous and just

458
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions.

459
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: On what the basis did you design to operate? More

460
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: than half of them were married, Harry fused all them.

461
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Why there was nothing preventing them from having children? I mean,

462
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: this defender's episode is absolutely a product of its time.

463
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: It makes a strong case for legality. Right, you're supposed

464
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: to feel for this doctor, You're supposed to see him

465
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: as a moral character, But you're supposed to feel comfortable

466
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: with abortion, not because it's something that women need and

467
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: deserve as a right to control their own bodies, but

468
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: because there's this paternalistic system of lawyers and doctors making

469
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: these decisions, not really women making these decisions. By two,

470
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: you have MOD, and MOD was actually an anomaly. I

471
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: don't actually think MOD was reflective of its time. And like,

472
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: if you look at the other stories that were being

473
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: told around mod mod is exceptional. It was one of

474
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: the first stories that focused on the woman making the

475
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: decision and having the abortion. You don't have to think

476
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: that way anymore. It's legal now. She's right, it's legal

477
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: the New York stage, but to give that a thought,

478
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: and her daughter kind of makes a joke like, well,

479
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: it's just like going to the dentist now. And then

480
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: she Maud turns around and trying to convince her husband

481
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: now to get a vasectomy. She's like, I hear, it's

482
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: just like going to the dentist together in a sectomy. Um.

483
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: But Maud does end up getting getting her abortion, and

484
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: there was a lot of protests at the time. By

485
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: the early eighties, it's a lot of this, like both sides.

486
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: One example that I think is really excellent UM excellent

487
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: in that it is very reflective of the moment that

488
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: in which it aired was Cagney and Lacy, which aired

489
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: in and Cagney and Lacy were too police officers in

490
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: New York City. This particular episode one inve UM was

491
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: about character comes to the pre saying because she's trying

492
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: to access an abortion and um, she's scared of getting

493
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: through the line of protesters outside of the clinic, and

494
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: Cagney and Lacey um kind of escort her there and

495
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: get her through the engage with the protesters. You actually

496
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: never find out if this woman gets her abortion. Excuse me, ma'am,

497
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm an officer of the law. This lady's going inside

498
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: and stop and think about what you are doing before.

499
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: So it's not about the woman getting the abortion in

500
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: a meaningful way, it's very much about her story. Creating

501
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: this conversation between Cagney and Lazy. I was raised Catholic.

502
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: This is hard one for me. Oh, I see you doing.

503
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: Women like Mrs Herrera are wrong. I don't have a

504
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: right to make their own decisions. I didn't say that,

505
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: But there are other choices besides abortion. So what you're

506
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: seeing here is a lot of what was happening in

507
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: the eighties. One protesters right, Like, we're seeing this ramping

508
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: up of a really active anti abortion movement that's blocking

509
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: clinic entrances, that's making the people seeking services uncomfortable. You

510
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: see this like both sides, right, we have to be

511
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: fair and balanced and how we're we're talking about this

512
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: the most prototypical nineties story that I liked it On

513
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: is the TV film UM, If These Walls Could Talk,

514
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: If These Walls Could Talk, A sort of three A

515
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: story about three vignettes. The first one is a story

516
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: about illegal abortion. Stars Demi Moore. Her character is a widow,

517
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: a recent, very recent widow. She has been in part

518
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: of her grief having an affair with her late husband's brother,

519
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: and she finds out she's pregnant. It's clear that it

520
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: could not be her husband's child. Um, she seeks an

521
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: illegal abortion. Anybody else here, no where's your kitchen. She

522
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: has the abortion on her kitchen table, and she dies hospital.

523
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: The next story is about a mother with teenage children

524
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: who finds out that she is pregnant and she considers

525
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: getting an abortion. Um. She doesn't really want to be pregnant,

526
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: her children are older, she doesn't really want to start

527
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: over with the baby. I just want you to understand

528
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: how important school is to me. Come on, honey, I

529
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: know that, No, you don't. If you did, you know

530
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: that my quitting school isn't the answer to everything. Um.

531
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: She really goes back and forth and weighs her choices.

532
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: I just wanted to let you know what I decided.

533
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to have the baby. And this was really

534
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: typical of what we saw in the nineties, which we

535
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: call the averted abortion. Now this one was wasn't like

536
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: typical of an averted story necessarily because a lot of

537
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: these stories were a character gets pregnant, considers having an abortion,

538
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: decides not to get one, and then has a miscarriage

539
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: or then finds out that the pregnancy test was a

540
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: false positive. Right, So in those cases, the character doesn't

541
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: have to deal with the consequences of choosing to continue

542
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: the pregnancy. There's no miscarriage in that particular story. But

543
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: because of the structure of the film, with like sort

544
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: of this one vignette that fades out, this next vignette

545
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: that fades and you moved to an entirely different story. Basically,

546
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: as soon as she decides to continue the pregnancy, that

547
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: story is over and then you have the third fvignette

548
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: is about an abortion provider who's put by Share and

549
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: with Um with clinic violence and the provider being killed

550
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: by the boyfriend of a patient that she is um

551
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: that she's treating at the time. Can I I ask

552
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: you a question, m It's all that you have to

553
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: do is why do you, why do you still do this?

554
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: Because I remember what it was like when it was

555
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: illegal for women to make this decision. I don't ever

556
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: want to see those days come again. And also when

557
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: a woman comes to me and says that she doesn't

558
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: know what she would have done without my health, I

559
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: know I'm doing the right job. And so you see

560
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: her like literally after being shot, like laying on the

561
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: floor of the clinics, the doctors. But what we really

562
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: see in the nineties is totally consistent with this like

563
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: Bill Clintonian idea that was prevalent at the time, which

564
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: is abortion is between a woman and her doctor, and

565
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: we're striving for safe, legal and rare. When you look

566
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: at like, why is the screenwriter including an abortion and

567
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: the story in the nineties, it was because the decision

568
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: is dramatic, The decision is hard. The decision is going

569
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: to bring a character to a crisis point for a relationship,

570
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: for a count, you know, like a put them on

571
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: a different half. Right, the decision itself is what the

572
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: story was about. Um And again, this is this is

573
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: where we were in our politics, this is where we

574
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: were in our cultural narratives. Is what we see on

575
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: the screen when we come Back filmmakers on why they

576
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: want to tell new abortion stories. The good news is

577
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: filmmakers are breaking free of those old abortion tropes because

578
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: of new streaming technology. There's frankly, just a lot more

579
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: movies and TV out there, and more content means more

580
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: abortion stories, and those stories are starting to take some chances.

581
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: Here's Gretchen's co researcher, Steph Harold. So today you don't

582
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: often see a character who's kind of going back and

583
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: forth like, well, I have the abortion, why not? What

584
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? I need to ask everyone around me? Um?

585
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: For example, we see just in the last couple of years,

586
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: we've had shows like Shrill on Hulu where a character

587
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: like as soon as she gets pregnant, she knows that

588
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: she wants to have an abortion right and ultimately the

589
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: the abortion actually helps her see more clearly other things

590
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: in her life. I got myself into this huge fucking mess,

591
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: but I made a decision only for me, for myself,

592
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: and I got myself out of it. The abortion has

593
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: become less about um um like drama in someone's life

594
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: about the decision, and more about oh, this is a

595
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: moment where a character is investing in themselves um and

596
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: is realizing what, you know, what's going on in their

597
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: life that they want to change or want to do differently.

598
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: There have been a couple of movies that have come

599
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: out in the last couple of years I'm thinking of

600
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: um never rarely sometimes always I'm Pregnant, that have tried

601
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: that have shown they're kind of like abortion road trip movies,

602
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: like one is very serious and one is like a

603
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: Buddy Coming. But they show these young teenagers who need

604
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: to travel long distances to get the abortion that they

605
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: need because they can't in their state because there are

606
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 1: these laws that make it so they need to share

607
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: with their parents and they don't want to. It shows

608
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: that they have to travel, they have to figure out

609
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: how they're going to know miss school and how that

610
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: will be explained, they need to get the money to

611
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: pay for the abortion, um and lots of various hijinks

612
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: and sue along the way. Both of the movies some

613
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: you know, like greatly serious, some hilarious. So I think

614
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: those have done a good job at helping audiences to

615
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 1: see and really make visible those kinds of experiences. Okay,

616
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: I know We're not like close anymore, true, and I'm

617
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: probably the last person that you want to help accurate.

618
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: But you have a car there it is. Trust me,

619
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: if if I could just go somewhere in town or

620
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: to St. Louis, even I wouldn't even here. I'm Rachelie

621
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: Goldenberg and I am the director and co writer of Pregnant.

622
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: The earliest abortion media memory that I have is dirty dancing.

623
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: You know, when I first thought, I didn't even realize

624
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: that it was an abortion storyline. And then as I

625
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: got older, you know, realized it and had actually heard

626
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: the writer, heard eleanor Bursting talk about this and say

627
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: that what she did was if you want to put

628
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: abortion in a story, you need to make sure that

629
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: it's essential to the plots that it cannot be cut out.

630
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: If it's a new storyline and see storyline, it's gonna

631
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: get cut out. But if you make something essential for

632
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: your a storyline happen around it, then you get to

633
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: hold onto it. And so uh so we did with

634
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm Pregnant. Is it's very much the a storyline. Unpregnant

635
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: is based on the y A novel of the same

636
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 1: name by authors Jenny Hendricks and Ted Kaplan. Rachel's movie

637
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: came out in seventeen year old overachiever Veronica gets pregnant

638
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: and needs an abortion, and because of Missouri's restrictive laws,

639
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: she must drive a thousand miles to get one, and

640
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: she enlists the help of her wild ex bests friend

641
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: Bailey and Chaos and sues, Well, it's one of those

642
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: things because my when my writing partner and I were

643
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: reading the book and we said, can that be write

644
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: a thousand miles? And we so we did, researched all

645
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: the surrounding states. It just felt inconceivable that would literally

646
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: be a thousand miles. And then yeahs is the closest,

647
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: closest access that Ronica could have. As a quick side

648
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: note amidst all the bad news about abortion in this country,

649
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: I'm happy to report there is at least one improvement

650
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: that would have dramatically cut down for Ronica's trip. As

651
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: of mere days ago June one, Illinois no longer requires

652
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: that minors seeking abortions get parental consent. You know, the

653
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: the intention of the book was, you know, to to

654
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: sort of show how difficult this journey is and to

655
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: de stigmatized abortion, and so taking that mission but finding

656
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: other ways to do that. In the film, was my mission.

657
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: So for example, the the scene with the abortion itself

658
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: where we go into the clinic, that was one of

659
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: those things where it wasn't quite written in that detail

660
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: or you weren't in the moment to moment with Veronica

661
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: in the book for that. But I took a tour

662
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: of a Los Angeles plan parenthood and they walked me

663
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: through all the steps and I because my abortion was

664
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: was a pill and so I hadn't been through the

665
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: surgical process, and I was like, oh my god, I

666
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: didn't know any of this. We need to show people

667
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 1: all of this. You know, they're shocking things like finding

668
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: out that in under ten minutes you're in and out

669
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: of the surgery room. It's actually not that complicated a procedure.

670
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: So that sort of thing felt really important to me

671
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: to bring bring to the table. But then, you know,

672
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: the spirit of things that were in the book are

673
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: ways that we just you know, the things that we

674
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: brought to the film as well, like just not uh

675
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: not having Veronica uh make a pro and con list.

676
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: You know, she knew what she wanted to do. She

677
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: was clear on her decision. And the problem and in

678
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: the in the film is how do I get it,

679
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: how do I get access? What was fascinating that I

680
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: didn't anticipate when I started the process with Unpregnant was

681
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: how I would become a vessel for people's stories. I'm interviewing,

682
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: you know, two different casting directors, and they both are

683
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: telling me about their auctions, and I'm, you know, hearing

684
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: sort of all the different perspectives. And that actually was

685
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: hugely informative in the process for the film, because I

686
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: am so familiar with my own experience, but to hear

687
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: other people's stories and really help broaden my understanding my

688
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: own perspective was helpful for the film because when we

689
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: did occasionally get the notes about should she make a

690
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: pro and calm list or how difficult should you know,

691
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: should this be for her? I could really draw from

692
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: my own experience and defend how confident she was in

693
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: her decision and how and how she moves on. And

694
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: you know, the most difficult part for her afterwards is

695
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: talking to her mom about it, not the fact that

696
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: she did it. Not sure I'll ever understand. I'm sorry,

697
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: I know. Is I love you, sweet people, so much

698
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: more than all of that. Okay, She's like probably a

699
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: lot of people in America who who have an understanding

700
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: of abortion is something that's bad. But then if there's

701
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: someone in their life that that that it touches, then

702
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're not going to cut that

703
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: person out of their life. You know, most parents love

704
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: their kids more than they hate their choices. There's a

705
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: perception that it's a hot button issue and people are

706
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: on one side or the other, but the truth is

707
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: that it's it's usually much more gray, And to me,

708
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: that's an opportunity because it feels like there's a move,

709
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of space to bring people over to acceptance.

710
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: I am actually uh working on the next abortion project

711
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: that's in a totally different space right now. Um that's

712
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: not quite ready to be talked about, but it's um yeah,

713
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: it's a totally different tone and totally different um subject matter.

714
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: And so looking more critically at the history um of abortion,

715
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those things where it's like,

716
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: is it anyone's responsibility? No, no one has to do anything,

717
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: but this is a right that we're losing. It's like

718
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: it's fucking diret right now. It's crazy. And so you know,

719
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: anything that anyone can do in whatever space they're in.

720
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: It's all important, and it's all necessary, and well, you

721
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: don't have to do anything. It's almost like as much

722
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: as anyone's doing isn't enough right now, we all have

723
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: to be doing everything. Um so it's it feels, yes,

724
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: very urgent. I think like film can help you understand,

725
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: understand things are complicated, understand things that are foreign to

726
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: you or to your experience. And so I hope that

727
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: more people will be valuing film and making things that

728
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: are sober and well considered and well researched, because in

729
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: the you know, we have a truth problem, and and

730
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: I think the only way to to address that it's

731
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: to be really rigorous in our storytelling and not just

732
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: appeal to people's heartstrings, but to do the hard work

733
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: of you know, following A to B and allowing people

734
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: to see for themselves what's really happening if they will look.

735
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: My name is Dawn Porter, and I'm a filmmaker. I

736
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: primarily make documentary films. Don Porter is part of a

737
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: larger cohort of documentarians who are tackling the reality of abortion.

738
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: Her film, called Trapped, looks at targeted regulation of abortion

739
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: providers or trapped laws. It felt like for people like

740
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: me who were like pro choice on paper, that we

741
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: kind of needed to see what was really happening UM,

742
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: And what was really happening is people who did not

743
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: have access to birth control, who did not have medical

744
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: insurance UM, who were on public assistance, were caught in

745
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: a system where they were hoping to not get pregnant

746
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: and hoping not to make this decision. And there were

747
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: no faces to go along with what was happening in

748
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: the clinics. And I thought people have this mistaken idea

749
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: that it's irresponsible party girls, that people didn't give a

750
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: lot of thought to the idea of abortion, and nothing

751
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: could be further from the truth. There was nobody whooping

752
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: and hollering and celebrating UM. The biggest reaction when we

753
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: would ask people who were recovering and who agreed to

754
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: talk to us was relief. I'm so glad that that.

755
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: I'm so relieved, you know, they were with a doctor

756
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: who kept them safe, that they you know, the actual

757
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: procedure also takes five minutes. Five minutes. It is a

758
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: clump of cells UM in most cases, and the overwhelming

759
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: number of cases, I was shocked by that, and I

760
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: thought people need to kind of see what it actually is,

761
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: because there's so much rhetoric that happens that we are

762
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: influenced by, even if we are a pro choice, that

763
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 1: we kind of needed. I wanted to bring medicine back

764
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: into it, but also some humanity, you know. I think

765
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: one of the most powerful influences of film is the

766
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: ability to um generate some empathy. Um. But also I

767
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: think it was really helpful to destigmatize abortion. And at

768
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: every single screening, without fail um, somebody stood up and said,

769
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: I want to tell my abortion story for the first time,

770
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: and many many people cried, and I think they were

771
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: crying from relief that a lot of women had a

772
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: lot of shame that they were somehow to blame for

773
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: their abortion stories. When it comes to the greater landscape

774
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: of abortion stories on screen, Don says, there's still a

775
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: ways to go. I think that that there are some um,

776
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, there's some efforts in some awareness, and I

777
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: think Planned Parenthood Karen's Bruk in particular, is part of

778
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: her job is to help advise creators about what really

779
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: happens in abortion situations. So I think that there are

780
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: some bright spots, But um, I don't think it's really um. Still,

781
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's realistic. I don't think we talked

782
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: enough about the economics of abortion. I don't think we

783
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: talked about the number of minority women who are making

784
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: this choice. I really don't see those stories on TV.

785
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: You see a young, attractive like girl who gets pregnant

786
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: and is, you know, shouting her femininity. Um, but I

787
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: think that that is um. That's not a full representation

788
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: of what's actually happening. Again, here's step Harold. I need

789
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: to see characters who are ordering pills online, having their

790
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: abortions themselves at home, surrounded by their loved ones, having

791
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: their friend there with them, googling because their friend did

792
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: this last month, instead of a legal abortion being this

793
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 1: kind of um dark thing that happened in the past.

794
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: We need to see how characters are going to navigate

795
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: this moment where abortion is illegal again, but now we

796
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: have the technology to get the abortion pills ourselves, right,

797
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: and what it means for them to do that medically safely,

798
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: but have it be legally risky, which is what it

799
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: is in real life. Right. Um. We need to see

800
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: characters grapple with Now, if I'm caught, what will happen

801
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: because we know that, you know, people across the country

802
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: are already being criminalized for for managing their own abortions.

803
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,959
Speaker 1: And then I think it's just having an entire TV

804
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 1: series that focus on abortion right, abortion clinics or abortion funds,

805
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: abortion travel networks. If there's so much Mitch storytelling possibility there, um,

806
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: instead of having it be you know, you're one really

807
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: promiscuous character, it gets pregnant and has an abortion, and

808
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: that's it. That's a wonderful story to tell, but it

809
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: can't be the only one that we see. We need

810
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: to see better representation of all kinds of people who

811
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: have abortions on television and film. Right. We need more

812
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: TV shows and films period that focus on characters of color.

813
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: But we also need to see those characters having their

814
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: abortions and supporting their friends and family having abortions. UM.

815
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: That I think that is crucially important, UM for representation. Right.

816
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: It helps everybody who's going through their abortions now feel

817
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: us alone. UM, it helps um normalize abortion and abortion experiences. Obviously,

818
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: representation doesn't fix everything, but it's a small step towards

819
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: people feeling not alone, people feeling secure and safe. In

820
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: their decision. My name is Jack, my pronouns are they.

821
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: Then there's We're in sexual education and wellness, and I'm

822
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: based out of Los Angeles. It's so weird. It's been

823
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: ten years now. I had an abortion when I was twenty.

824
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: I was in college and I was in a relationship

825
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: with my high school sweetheart. We grew up in Miami

826
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 1: together and we both ended up going to college in Orlando.

827
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: It was not a good relationship, unfortunately. It was very

828
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: toxic and it was very back and forth. And what

829
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: had happened was is the condom broke. I did go

830
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: ahead and take a Plan B, but that only really

831
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: stopped too from ovulating. And apparently I'm just fertile. So

832
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 1: I believe at about a month I want to say,

833
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: like three or four weeks goes by. I had my

834
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: twentieth birthday. I'm thinking everything should be fine, but I

835
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: never start my cycle. So I grew up a pregnancy test,

836
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: try it to be on it, and it immediately comes

837
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: back positive. You know, at the time, I had fairly

838
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: freshly come out as a non binary person. I think

839
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: at the time I was identifying specifically as a gender

840
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: and that I've always experienced dysphoria from having a womb.

841
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 1: It's not really been so much of an external experience

842
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: for me, Like I love, I'm cool with the way

843
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 1: I look, I'm cool with all that. But for some reason,

844
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: just the concept of having a womb and the concept

845
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: of being pregnant is absolutely mortifying to me. So I

846
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: communicated with the partner I had at the time, and

847
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: we both were very much team abortion. We called I'm

848
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: nervous as hell. I make an appointment for the first

849
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: one that was available for saying in the morning, like

850
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: eight in the morning. I believe as soon as I

851
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: could get one was about a week out too, which

852
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: was not fun because I'm sitting for a week going

853
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: still pregnant, not not too stoked on that, you know.

854
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: I remember walking in seeing protesters they had something there

855
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: was there was a signage that was specifically um like

856
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: targeting or marketing father saying like it's your baby too.

857
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: And when I go in, the person in the whoever

858
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: the receptionist was, was just the sweetest person in the

859
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: world is immediately smiling at me, and a lot of

860
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: my anxiety kind of went down after meeting them, and

861
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: they were playing maide in Manhattan in the lobby. Oh

862
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: Lord almost sund on your faith right there, and I'm

863
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: Puerto Rican. So I was like, wait, this, lets you

864
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: a sign JL. Yes, JL soothed my fears about this

865
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: abortion situation. I chose to have a medication abortion specifically

866
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: versus a surgical one because well, one, it was cheaper

867
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: by about a hundred dollars and this was not something

868
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 1: that I had pocket money for. Um. And the second

869
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: big reason for me is I was really uncomfortable with

870
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: the concept of having someone just in my crotch. UM.

871
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: I did not want to be exposed to strangers in

872
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: that way. I felt really uncomfortable with that. So I

873
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: thought that this would be a better a better option

874
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: because I could take I could take these pills, I

875
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: could go home. You take one at the clinic and

876
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 1: then you take the rest home like Unfortunately, that same year,

877
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: something passed in Florida right before I went to get

878
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: my abortion, where you had to get a transvaginal ultrasound

879
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 1: that is an internal ultrasound. That is not the cute

880
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: see in the movies. A little bit of Jillian your

881
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: telling me, no, they put something inside you. And that

882
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: is kind of what I was trying to avoid that

883
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: kind of situation was exactly what I was trying to

884
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: stare away from by choosing medication abortion. But unfortunately they

885
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,760
Speaker 1: wanted to, I guess, make sure that I was pregnant,

886
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: even though I was pretty damn sure I was pregnant. Um,

887
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: and then when I went back for a follow up

888
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: in two weeks, I had to do that again. Um. Yeah,

889
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: at the time, this is this happened in two thousand eleven.

890
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 1: I want to stay around there. You know, at the time,

891
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: there weren't a lot of conversations about trans people in

892
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: medical spaces, especially in healthcare situations. You know, there's no

893
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: you'll see it now, especially now that I live in

894
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, you know, and you fill out your forms,

895
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: there's a space for a preferred name, there's a space

896
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: for your pronouns. I feel like now we're beginning to

897
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: recognize that not everybody who has a uterus or needs,

898
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 1: you know, this kind of reproductive health care is going

899
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: to identify as a woman. So fantastic, but again, ten

900
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: years ago, not not a thing. So I had to

901
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: go into this thing by myself and have conversations with

902
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, very sweet staff. Really, I really appreciate how

903
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: much they were trying to help me, But it was

904
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: really difficult to go in for service where every two

905
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: seconds you're being miss gendered and you're being talked to

906
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: and about as if you are of an identity that

907
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: you're not. Being miss gendered is very much an act

908
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: of violence, and it's very upsetting to have to be

909
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,959
Speaker 1: in that space where you're already vulnerable something I don't

910
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: like being, and then I have to navigate that. I

911
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: didn't tell very many people about it either. I live

912
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: with my older sister at the time too, and I

913
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: never mentioned it. You know, clearly I was unwell, but

914
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: I didn't talk about it. I didn't even tell my

915
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: family till years later. For me, the experience was something

916
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: that I just it was in the way. It was

917
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 1: just something I needed to get done, um so I

918
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: could continue my life. I've never felt guilty about it.

919
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: I've never felt um, you know, ashamed of having had

920
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 1: an abortion. It was just it's a thing. It happened.

921
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: I had my feelings, and I'm moving on. I did

922
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: a fellowship UH and an internship with Planned Parenthood specifically,

923
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: and I volunteered with Nayral and other other organizations, other

924
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: reproductive rights UM organizations, and the experiences weren't weren't great.

925
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: I feel like even though that these people, you know,

926
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: we're definitely trying to fight for the same endgame where

927
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, obviously abortion accesses is fully there. The way

928
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: that I was spoken to, especially then, was not acceptable.

929
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: You know, it was always very much you know, we

930
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: have to make sure women have access to this first,

931
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: and then we'll cover nuances like you know, transgender not

932
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: conforming people accessing abortion, or people of color neating abortion.

933
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: The narrative was always very much around sis gendered white women,

934
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: and I just I was always put off by that

935
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: because it just doesn't that's not how this works. It's

936
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: never it's never been successful to just aim to support

937
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: one group and then it trickles down. That's it's never worked.

938
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: So I don't know where that idea came from. So

939
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: when I was finally presented with an opportunity to be

940
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: in a cohort where the majority of the people there

941
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: are people of color, and eventually, you know, I was

942
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: the only trans person at first, but eventually not Now

943
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: there are other trans people talking about similar experiences. When

944
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: I first heard that there was another trans person who

945
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: was going to be joining me testify. I cried because

946
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: I had not I've never met or spoken to any

947
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: other trans person that's had an abortion. I know where,

948
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: I know we're there, I know we're out here. It's

949
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: just it's a completely different experience. We can actually interact

950
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: with that person when other people actually, um, you know,

951
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: you've come to me other trans folks and then gender

952
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: not conforming folks come to me with you know, you

953
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: made me feel like like I'm okay, like I'm gonna

954
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: be fine. You know, we're out here. This is normal.

955
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: My heart I can't. It kills me, but it's good.

956
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: It's good. High listeners for all of you who have

957
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: been with us these last four episodes, Thank you so

958
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: much for listening. Two quick things. One, if you're interested,

959
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 1: Alison Leave's comedy show Oh God to show about abortion

960
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: got extended. Find more about how to see it in

961
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: l A or New York at oh God show dot com. Also,

962
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: how are you all doing considering all that's happened. I'd

963
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can call this number

964
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: one eight four four four seven nine seven eight eight

965
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: three and leave me a message about what you're thinking.

966
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: Or maybe the actions you're taking, or even things you

967
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: have learned want to share about abortion. Your message might

968
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: be included in a future episode, and we really will

969
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: appreciate hearing from you. All that number again one eight

970
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: four four four seven nine seven eight eight three. Abortion

971
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: The Body Politic is executive produced by me Katie Curic

972
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: and was created by small team led by our intreptid

973
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: supervising producer Lauren Hansen, editing and sound designed by Derrick

974
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: Clements researched by Nina Perlman. Production and editing help for

975
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: this episode from Julia Weaver and Mary do and a

976
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: special thanks to k c M producers Courtney Litz and

977
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: Adriana Fasio