1
00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:23,410
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Milford, Kansas, nineteen seventeen, a forty six year old

2
00:00:23,450 --> 00:00:27,370
Speaker 1: farmer walks into the local drug store and bashfully asks

3
00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:30,130
Speaker 1: the town's young doctor if you can talk to him

4
00:00:30,130 --> 00:00:35,970
Speaker 1: about a rather delicate matter. Although John Romulus Brinkley is

5
00:00:36,010 --> 00:00:40,050
Speaker 1: a newcomer to the rural Kansas town, he's proven himself

6
00:00:40,090 --> 00:00:45,050
Speaker 1: by helping the locals through a recent flu epidemic. Sensing

7
00:00:45,050 --> 00:00:49,290
Speaker 1: the man's embarrassment, the doctor ushers him into a back room.

8
00:00:49,650 --> 00:00:55,970
Speaker 1: The problem is, the man explains, hesitatingly, he's lacking in pep,

9
00:00:56,610 --> 00:01:01,210
Speaker 1: his attires are flat. In short, he can't get it up.

10
00:01:02,170 --> 00:01:04,850
Speaker 1: He and his wife long for a child to complete

11
00:01:04,890 --> 00:01:10,690
Speaker 1: their family. Can The doctor help explains that he's tried

12
00:01:10,890 --> 00:01:16,930
Speaker 1: treating the sexually weak with serums and tinctures and even electricity,

13
00:01:17,330 --> 00:01:22,250
Speaker 1: but nothing has worked. Then, remembering his time working at

14
00:01:22,290 --> 00:01:25,930
Speaker 1: an abattoir, Brinkley jokes, you wouldn't have any trouble if

15
00:01:25,970 --> 00:01:29,330
Speaker 1: you had a pair of those buck glands in you. Well,

16
00:01:29,530 --> 00:01:33,690
Speaker 1: why don't you put him in? Asks the farmer. Brinkley

17
00:01:33,770 --> 00:01:36,850
Speaker 1: will later say that he felt seconded by the idea

18
00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:40,130
Speaker 1: and tried to halt the conversation by explaining the grave

19
00:01:40,210 --> 00:01:43,850
Speaker 1: health risks, but the farmer is desperate to father a

20
00:01:43,970 --> 00:01:48,370
Speaker 1: child and willing to give anything a go I don't

21
00:01:48,410 --> 00:01:52,970
Speaker 1: have a goat, the doctor protests, I do, the farmer replies,

22
00:01:53,770 --> 00:01:56,770
Speaker 1: and so late one night, the farmer, along with his

23
00:01:56,850 --> 00:02:00,730
Speaker 1: billy goat, pays a visit to the doctor's office for

24
00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:05,690
Speaker 1: a testicle transplant. Two weeks later, the farmer makes another

25
00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:08,810
Speaker 1: late night visit to the doctor's office, this time with

26
00:02:08,890 --> 00:02:11,650
Speaker 1: a spring in his step and a check for one

27
00:02:11,730 --> 00:02:15,250
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars equivalent to thousands of dollars today.

28
00:02:16,090 --> 00:02:19,770
Speaker 1: He is delighted with his goat gland implants and has

29
00:02:19,770 --> 00:02:26,490
Speaker 1: been telling his friends. Soon more men are making late

30
00:02:26,610 --> 00:02:30,450
Speaker 1: night visits to the Milford drug store. Dr Brinkley needs

31
00:02:30,490 --> 00:02:34,650
Speaker 1: bigger premises and a barn for the goats. Patients will

32
00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:37,850
Speaker 1: pick out the beasts whose testicles they want implanted into

33
00:02:37,850 --> 00:02:42,410
Speaker 1: their own. Men will come from all over America seeking treatment.

34
00:02:43,210 --> 00:02:47,730
Speaker 1: Brinkley travels too, setting up temporary clinics across America and

35
00:02:47,810 --> 00:02:52,530
Speaker 1: even taking his treatments abroad. Newspapers report on the touring

36
00:02:52,890 --> 00:02:56,290
Speaker 1: goat gland doctor, and the man himself discovers that the

37
00:02:56,330 --> 00:03:01,210
Speaker 1: cutting edge technology of radio can bring him even more patients,

38
00:03:01,930 --> 00:03:04,850
Speaker 1: so many he'll have to build a proper road between

39
00:03:04,930 --> 00:03:09,970
Speaker 1: Milford Railway Station and his hospital. A man is as

40
00:03:10,090 --> 00:03:13,650
Speaker 1: old as his glands, and his glands are as old

41
00:03:13,650 --> 00:03:18,490
Speaker 1: as his sex glands, Brinkley tells his patients. So eager

42
00:03:18,530 --> 00:03:22,130
Speaker 1: are they to feel the effects of revitalized sex clans,

43
00:03:22,450 --> 00:03:25,890
Speaker 1: that few stopped to ponder the medical credentials of the

44
00:03:26,010 --> 00:03:31,850
Speaker 1: charming Dr Brinkley. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening to

45
00:03:32,090 --> 00:04:02,090
Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales. Dr John Romulus Brinkley was a showman, a

46
00:04:02,130 --> 00:04:06,890
Speaker 1: great self publicist, and an unreliable narrator. The story about

47
00:04:06,890 --> 00:04:10,610
Speaker 1: the farmer, for example, comes from Brinkley himself, and not

48
00:04:10,890 --> 00:04:14,650
Speaker 1: everything he said was true, In particular, not everything he

49
00:04:14,770 --> 00:04:19,170
Speaker 1: said about his own medical qualifications. To guide us through

50
00:04:19,210 --> 00:04:23,130
Speaker 1: the fantastical claims of Dr John R. Brinkley and his

51
00:04:23,330 --> 00:04:27,770
Speaker 1: no less fantastical life is doctor Kate Lister, host of

52
00:04:27,810 --> 00:04:31,770
Speaker 1: one of my favorite podcasts, Betwixt the Sheets, the History

53
00:04:31,810 --> 00:04:36,170
Speaker 1: of Sex, scandal and Society. Kate, I am a huge fan.

54
00:04:36,570 --> 00:04:37,730
Speaker 1: Welcome to Cautionary Tales.

55
00:04:37,810 --> 00:04:40,050
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much for having me on. I'm

56
00:04:40,130 --> 00:04:42,250
Speaker 2: always happy to talk about goat glands.

57
00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:45,890
Speaker 1: I mean with the crossover between betwixt the Sheets and

58
00:04:45,930 --> 00:04:49,250
Speaker 1: cautionary Tales, is it's not too hard to find?

59
00:04:50,210 --> 00:04:52,370
Speaker 2: No, this has been a long time coming, hasn't it?

60
00:04:52,490 --> 00:04:56,170
Speaker 1: Really? No pun intended, but yes, it really has, it

61
00:04:56,210 --> 00:05:00,090
Speaker 1: really has. I am very, very keen to hear more

62
00:05:00,130 --> 00:05:03,650
Speaker 1: about doctor Brinkley, if you will pardon the pun. His

63
00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:04,650
Speaker 1: story is nuts.

64
00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:08,290
Speaker 2: He was a fucking lunatic, That's who he was.

65
00:05:09,490 --> 00:05:12,210
Speaker 1: So I think we already gathered that, but give us

66
00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:14,650
Speaker 1: the backstory. So before we get into these unusual treatments,

67
00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:16,850
Speaker 1: what was his early life like with was there any

68
00:05:16,930 --> 00:05:19,250
Speaker 1: sign of this interest in goat lands?

69
00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:22,890
Speaker 2: What we know about him is gathered from his own

70
00:05:22,930 --> 00:05:26,690
Speaker 2: testimony and testimony of people he knew him, and various

71
00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:29,370
Speaker 2: historical records. But you've got to take everything with a

72
00:05:29,410 --> 00:05:32,050
Speaker 2: pinch assault when it comes to Brinkley, because he was

73
00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:34,850
Speaker 2: the master of spin. He appears to have been born

74
00:05:34,970 --> 00:05:38,570
Speaker 2: in Carolina only a decade after the Civil War had ended,

75
00:05:38,690 --> 00:05:40,450
Speaker 2: so you sort of have to factor that into it.

76
00:05:40,450 --> 00:05:43,130
Speaker 2: It was the bloodiest conflict America had ever seen, so

77
00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:46,010
Speaker 2: it's a post war world. Everyone's kind of walking around

78
00:05:46,010 --> 00:05:50,090
Speaker 2: like what on earth was that he's born? He grows

79
00:05:50,170 --> 00:05:53,650
Speaker 2: up quite poor. His parents die when he's young, and

80
00:05:53,690 --> 00:05:57,610
Speaker 2: he's raised by and an uncle, and he gets married

81
00:05:57,970 --> 00:06:00,970
Speaker 2: in his twenties. At some point he works in an avatar,

82
00:06:01,330 --> 00:06:03,650
Speaker 2: which is where we think he first saw a goat

83
00:06:03,690 --> 00:06:06,650
Speaker 2: and went, oh, I'll store that away for future.

84
00:06:07,010 --> 00:06:07,890
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could use that.

85
00:06:08,010 --> 00:06:10,610
Speaker 2: Yes, For some reason, he thought that a goat was

86
00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:13,210
Speaker 2: the most hygienic animal. That's he first read flag that one,

87
00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:13,530
Speaker 2: isn't it.

88
00:06:13,570 --> 00:06:16,290
Speaker 1: I have all sorts of thoughts about goats, but hygienic

89
00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:18,450
Speaker 1: is not the one that doesn't leap to mind of it.

90
00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:21,250
Speaker 1: Maybe that's just my own ignorance.

91
00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:23,810
Speaker 2: Maybe that's just our goat prejudice. But anyway, he thought

92
00:06:23,850 --> 00:06:28,410
Speaker 2: that they were fantastic. He gets married to his first wife,

93
00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:31,050
Speaker 2: a woman called Sally Wick, and they go on the

94
00:06:31,130 --> 00:06:34,930
Speaker 2: road as this kind of traveling medicine act together. So

95
00:06:35,050 --> 00:06:39,530
Speaker 2: you've already got the start of this combining of quack

96
00:06:39,730 --> 00:06:43,930
Speaker 2: medicine and showmanship. So they would go to rural towns

97
00:06:43,930 --> 00:06:46,130
Speaker 2: and sort of put on a big show for the

98
00:06:46,170 --> 00:06:50,170
Speaker 2: local folks and then flog them well snake oil really

99
00:06:50,330 --> 00:06:53,090
Speaker 2: just just nonsense and rubbish, but they were pretty good

100
00:06:53,090 --> 00:06:53,450
Speaker 2: at it.

101
00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:55,970
Speaker 1: As a famous economics paper about the history of the

102
00:06:56,010 --> 00:07:01,330
Speaker 1: market for snake oil, and it grew hugely during the

103
00:07:01,370 --> 00:07:04,730
Speaker 1: period we're discussing, so the late eighteen hundreds and then

104
00:07:04,770 --> 00:07:07,410
Speaker 1: the first half of the twentieth century, huge market, and

105
00:07:07,490 --> 00:07:11,010
Speaker 1: a lot of it involved circuses, So you had to

106
00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:13,170
Speaker 1: get a crowd in order to sell them whatever it

107
00:07:13,210 --> 00:07:15,010
Speaker 1: was that you were selling them, and circus is a

108
00:07:15,050 --> 00:07:16,210
Speaker 1: good way to attract attention.

109
00:07:16,370 --> 00:07:18,890
Speaker 2: It is completely mad. I mean, would you take medical

110
00:07:18,890 --> 00:07:20,770
Speaker 2: advice from a clown at a circus?

111
00:07:21,250 --> 00:07:24,130
Speaker 1: Nothing against clowns, but that wouldn't be my first board

112
00:07:24,130 --> 00:07:26,890
Speaker 1: of call. But I guess when we think about the

113
00:07:26,970 --> 00:07:32,090
Speaker 1: demand for what we might call unproven treatments today being

114
00:07:32,530 --> 00:07:35,930
Speaker 1: that's true. So on the TikTok on YouTube, and again

115
00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:38,650
Speaker 1: it's attention. You've got an influencer, somebody who you're paying

116
00:07:38,650 --> 00:07:41,530
Speaker 1: attention to because they're doing interesting things, and then suddenly

117
00:07:41,530 --> 00:07:44,130
Speaker 1: they're trying to sell you their latest goop or creams

118
00:07:44,170 --> 00:07:46,970
Speaker 1: or pills and not so different.

119
00:07:47,090 --> 00:07:49,130
Speaker 2: But if he'd been around today, I think he would

120
00:07:49,130 --> 00:07:51,770
Speaker 2: have been on TikTok, would Brinkley. But he was traveling

121
00:07:51,770 --> 00:07:55,810
Speaker 2: around towns, he's doing his act, he's selling nonsense, and

122
00:07:55,850 --> 00:07:59,690
Speaker 2: then at some point he tries to settle down in Chicago,

123
00:07:59,810 --> 00:08:01,770
Speaker 2: and he must have had a thought along the way

124
00:08:01,770 --> 00:08:03,530
Speaker 2: of like, I'm not really a doctor.

125
00:08:03,810 --> 00:08:06,730
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, okay, spoiler, he's not a doctor.

126
00:08:08,290 --> 00:08:10,490
Speaker 2: Something must have occurred to like, I'm treating all these

127
00:08:10,530 --> 00:08:12,770
Speaker 2: people and I'm not a medical person.

128
00:08:12,890 --> 00:08:15,210
Speaker 1: So he had no medical qualification?

129
00:08:15,610 --> 00:08:18,410
Speaker 2: Can do attitude? Tim? Is what he had? He had?

130
00:08:21,210 --> 00:08:22,730
Speaker 1: Did he claim to be a doctor or did he

131
00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:24,530
Speaker 1: have any sort of qualifications at all?

132
00:08:24,610 --> 00:08:27,730
Speaker 2: Not at this point, and the qualifications that he does

133
00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:31,410
Speaker 2: get are best described as gubious. He went to study

134
00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:35,410
Speaker 2: at the Chicago Bennett Medical School. Eclectic medicine was just

135
00:08:35,770 --> 00:08:39,050
Speaker 2: sort of the study of botany, herbal cures and a

136
00:08:39,050 --> 00:08:41,890
Speaker 2: bit of physiotherapy as well, So it's already a little

137
00:08:41,930 --> 00:08:45,370
Speaker 2: bit okay, and it's not an accredited college that he's

138
00:08:45,370 --> 00:08:47,890
Speaker 2: studying at, and he doesn't even manage to finish it

139
00:08:47,930 --> 00:08:50,050
Speaker 2: because he can't pay the tuition fees. At this point,

140
00:08:50,050 --> 00:08:52,210
Speaker 2: he seems to be working a lot of different jobs

141
00:08:52,210 --> 00:08:53,770
Speaker 2: to try and pay these fees, and he can't, so

142
00:08:53,850 --> 00:08:56,970
Speaker 2: he drops out. And then eventually he goes to the

143
00:08:57,050 --> 00:09:00,010
Speaker 2: Kansas City Eclectic Medical School, which is again is a

144
00:09:00,050 --> 00:09:02,890
Speaker 2: nonsense it's just a front. They were known as diploma mills,

145
00:09:02,930 --> 00:09:05,970
Speaker 2: and he just buys a diploma in the same way

146
00:09:05,970 --> 00:09:08,970
Speaker 2: that occasionally Charlatan's get exposed today because they've bought a

147
00:09:09,130 --> 00:09:10,370
Speaker 2: PhD online.

148
00:09:10,450 --> 00:09:13,370
Speaker 1: Okay, so he's got a fig leaf of a qualification,

149
00:09:13,570 --> 00:09:16,210
Speaker 1: but he hasn't any got any serious training. And then

150
00:09:16,250 --> 00:09:18,250
Speaker 1: he ends up in Milford, Kansas. How did he end

151
00:09:18,330 --> 00:09:19,610
Speaker 1: up there from Chicago?

152
00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:22,890
Speaker 2: He ditches his wife by the way in between these

153
00:09:22,930 --> 00:09:26,250
Speaker 2: two points, and his children, he just leaves them and

154
00:09:26,290 --> 00:09:28,850
Speaker 2: he takes up with another woman called Minnie, who he

155
00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:33,570
Speaker 2: bigamously marries. And at this point he's trying to run

156
00:09:33,770 --> 00:09:36,970
Speaker 2: a kind of a medical center in Chicago where he's

157
00:09:36,970 --> 00:09:40,170
Speaker 2: basically injecting men with colored water and telling them that

158
00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:43,250
Speaker 2: this is good for their manly vigor. And the authorities

159
00:09:43,250 --> 00:09:45,010
Speaker 2: get wise to it, and so he needs to get

160
00:09:45,010 --> 00:09:48,330
Speaker 2: out there quick smart. And there's an advert for the

161
00:09:48,370 --> 00:09:51,490
Speaker 2: town of Milford where they need a physician. So he

162
00:09:51,570 --> 00:09:55,610
Speaker 2: thinks that will do me and him and Minnie pack

163
00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:57,770
Speaker 2: up their spotted handkerchief and head to Kansas.

164
00:09:58,010 --> 00:10:01,170
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then yeah, flu hits and he tends people.

165
00:10:01,490 --> 00:10:03,250
Speaker 2: He was really popular.

166
00:10:03,650 --> 00:10:07,330
Speaker 1: I mean, aside manner will get you along well. And

167
00:10:07,370 --> 00:10:10,050
Speaker 1: with flu. I mean at the time, there's no flu vaccine.

168
00:10:10,210 --> 00:10:12,290
Speaker 1: I guess there's no treatment, so you just kind of

169
00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:13,810
Speaker 1: like be nice to people and.

170
00:10:13,850 --> 00:10:14,770
Speaker 2: Be nice to people.

171
00:10:15,010 --> 00:10:15,210
Speaker 1: Yeah.

172
00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:19,530
Speaker 2: Yeah, But he was really popular when he first arrives

173
00:10:19,570 --> 00:10:23,730
Speaker 2: because he's this new doctor. Nobody's questioning that he calls

174
00:10:23,770 --> 00:10:26,090
Speaker 2: himself a doctor. It's a small rual town. There's a

175
00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:29,490
Speaker 2: few hundred people, and they're just thrilled to have a doctor.

176
00:10:29,690 --> 00:10:34,210
Speaker 1: And then somehow he makes this leap from eclectic medicine,

177
00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:37,410
Speaker 1: so basically colored water and some herbs and spices, and

178
00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:39,610
Speaker 1: I mean that's pretty ordinary. It's a lot of people

179
00:10:39,610 --> 00:10:43,450
Speaker 1: doing that at this point in history. He leaps into

180
00:10:44,090 --> 00:10:46,730
Speaker 1: the goat gland game. Yeah. I know that there are

181
00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:49,610
Speaker 1: different accounts of the first operation, but we know that

182
00:10:49,690 --> 00:10:52,610
Speaker 1: he did, in fact in plant goatlands. So what where

183
00:10:52,610 --> 00:10:55,410
Speaker 1: would I really I'm going to regret asking this. Where

184
00:10:55,410 --> 00:10:56,050
Speaker 1: did he put them?

185
00:10:57,530 --> 00:11:01,490
Speaker 2: Well, he put them into the testicles, into the scrotums

186
00:11:01,810 --> 00:11:05,090
Speaker 2: of men, and there are descriptions of the surgery that

187
00:11:05,170 --> 00:11:05,810
Speaker 2: he did.

188
00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:08,930
Speaker 1: Scrotums being stretchedy there's room for four testicles rather than two.

189
00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:11,610
Speaker 2: That's you've pretty much got it. So he had this

190
00:11:11,730 --> 00:11:14,890
Speaker 2: idea that you had to use the goat's gland within

191
00:11:14,930 --> 00:11:18,010
Speaker 2: twenty minutes of severing it. So he would basically castraight

192
00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:21,650
Speaker 2: the goats, cut out the gland from the testicle, put

193
00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:25,050
Speaker 2: it in salted water to keep it at room temperature,

194
00:11:25,050 --> 00:11:27,370
Speaker 2: and then rush it into the other room where he

195
00:11:27,370 --> 00:11:31,410
Speaker 2: would have numbed up his victims scrotum with local anesthetic,

196
00:11:31,810 --> 00:11:35,090
Speaker 2: and then with two incisions he would put the entire

197
00:11:35,130 --> 00:11:37,650
Speaker 2: gland just under the surface of the skin. And he

198
00:11:37,730 --> 00:11:40,050
Speaker 2: said that he was doing things like joining up blood

199
00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:43,450
Speaker 2: vessels and ensuring oxygen to play. He wasn't doing any

200
00:11:43,450 --> 00:11:48,170
Speaker 2: of that. He's just jamming a bullock in and then

201
00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:51,370
Speaker 2: he stitches it up. That's what he was doing. I

202
00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:54,210
Speaker 2: can't for you, but don't you know what. He didn't

203
00:11:54,210 --> 00:11:56,410
Speaker 2: come up with this in a vacuum. This was the

204
00:11:56,450 --> 00:11:59,610
Speaker 2: time of very very early hormone treatment. And I say

205
00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:02,610
Speaker 2: early in the fact that they discovered what hormones were.

206
00:12:03,370 --> 00:12:08,370
Speaker 2: And he wasn't the only mad person grafting testicles into

207
00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:11,970
Speaker 2: other testicles. There was an American Russian physician called Serge

208
00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:15,210
Speaker 2: Voronov who at least was medically qualified, right, and he

209
00:12:15,370 --> 00:12:18,210
Speaker 2: was doing it with monkey to worse. I don't know.

210
00:12:18,290 --> 00:12:19,450
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you could do.

211
00:12:19,570 --> 00:12:21,890
Speaker 1: The thinking is part of the story, actually, which is

212
00:12:21,930 --> 00:12:25,210
Speaker 1: that you've got these quacks, but the mainstream of medical

213
00:12:25,250 --> 00:12:28,010
Speaker 1: practice is not necessarily any better. It doesn't necessarily have

214
00:12:28,010 --> 00:12:31,090
Speaker 1: any more evidence. They've just got more authority.

215
00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:32,610
Speaker 2: And it made sense to them in a way of like, right,

216
00:12:32,690 --> 00:12:37,130
Speaker 2: we've discovered that testosterone is important for men and it

217
00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:41,570
Speaker 2: makes them feel peppy, and we've discovered it's made in testicles.

218
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:43,890
Speaker 2: So if we take a testicle and we put it

219
00:12:43,890 --> 00:12:46,490
Speaker 2: in another testicle, see how it's fallen apart quite quickly.

220
00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:46,650
Speaker 1: Now.

221
00:12:47,050 --> 00:12:50,450
Speaker 2: But I was like, I was with you right up

222
00:12:50,530 --> 00:12:51,250
Speaker 2: until that.

223
00:12:51,490 --> 00:12:54,130
Speaker 1: It feels like spinal tap. Four testicles for test is

224
00:12:54,130 --> 00:12:54,730
Speaker 1: more than two.

225
00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:58,690
Speaker 2: So that was the theory behind it. So you've got

226
00:12:58,770 --> 00:13:03,530
Speaker 2: serge Varanov doing it with monkey glands. Apparently he wasn't

227
00:13:03,570 --> 00:13:06,490
Speaker 2: in certain the entire glands. He was cutting slivers off

228
00:13:06,610 --> 00:13:10,570
Speaker 2: and then stitching it up inside men's scrota. He at

229
00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:14,570
Speaker 2: least was medically trained and had some gloss of pseudoscience

230
00:13:14,690 --> 00:13:18,690
Speaker 2: with it. Brinkley had nothing. He just had a scalpel

231
00:13:18,730 --> 00:13:19,170
Speaker 2: and a goat.

232
00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:22,770
Speaker 1: And the thing that I find most astonishing about this

233
00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:25,650
Speaker 1: is that a load of men seemed really keen to

234
00:13:25,690 --> 00:13:28,290
Speaker 1: have this done. It was hugely popular around the block.

235
00:13:28,370 --> 00:13:31,810
Speaker 2: It was hugely popular. The gland therapy, as it was

236
00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:34,010
Speaker 2: called at the time, was really big in the twenties

237
00:13:34,050 --> 00:13:37,130
Speaker 2: and thirties. You could even buy like rejuvenating face cream

238
00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:39,770
Speaker 2: that claimed it was made from glands. It was like

239
00:13:39,890 --> 00:13:43,610
Speaker 2: the thing because it was like a pseudo hormone treatment.

240
00:13:44,130 --> 00:13:49,090
Speaker 2: The absolute apex of it was having actual testicles. So

241
00:13:49,210 --> 00:13:52,770
Speaker 2: apparently the first person that came to Brinkley and when

242
00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:56,330
Speaker 2: would you please put a goat testicle inside mine? And

243
00:13:56,530 --> 00:13:59,090
Speaker 2: he went, oh, I'll have to have a think about

244
00:13:59,130 --> 00:14:03,130
Speaker 2: that eventually, when yeah, are right. So he said that

245
00:14:03,170 --> 00:14:04,330
Speaker 2: he wanted to do this because he was impotent in

246
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:06,450
Speaker 2: his wife want to get pregnant, and lo and behold,

247
00:14:06,490 --> 00:14:08,570
Speaker 2: his wife becomes pregnant, the baby is born. They call

248
00:14:08,610 --> 00:14:11,930
Speaker 2: him Billy, of course they do, and it's hailed as

249
00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:14,410
Speaker 2: the first goat gland baby. Because if there's one thing

250
00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:18,210
Speaker 2: Brinkley is amazing at its self publicity. I've got in

251
00:14:18,250 --> 00:14:22,250
Speaker 2: front of me a copy of his advertisement for Billy,

252
00:14:22,290 --> 00:14:23,570
Speaker 2: the first goat gland.

253
00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:24,090
Speaker 1: Oh wow, baby.

254
00:14:24,170 --> 00:14:25,850
Speaker 2: So if I shared that well.

255
00:14:25,970 --> 00:14:29,130
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a cute baby. It doesn't look at

256
00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:30,690
Speaker 1: all like a goat, does it. I mean a toddler,

257
00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:32,730
Speaker 1: I guess, other than a baby, but it looks about one.

258
00:14:33,010 --> 00:14:37,690
Speaker 1: But yes, Kansas surgeon uses goat glands to cure sterility.

259
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:44,770
Speaker 1: First goat gland baby, Dr John R. Brinkley and Billy amazing.

260
00:14:44,970 --> 00:14:47,690
Speaker 2: So he uses this as an opportunity to launch this

261
00:14:47,810 --> 00:14:51,370
Speaker 2: incredible treatment. This young boy, Billy is used as the

262
00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:55,170
Speaker 2: definitive proof and it's pedaled as this cure. It'll get

263
00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:57,730
Speaker 2: rid of impotence, it will pep you up, it'll rejuvenate

264
00:14:57,770 --> 00:15:00,610
Speaker 2: your sex life. And he was charging people. Well, it's

265
00:15:00,610 --> 00:15:02,890
Speaker 2: about seven hundred and fifty dollars, but in today's money,

266
00:15:02,890 --> 00:15:04,130
Speaker 2: that's well over ten grand.

267
00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:05,850
Speaker 1: Off the top of my head, I would say that's

268
00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:09,330
Speaker 1: probably a year's income, depends exactly how you make that.

269
00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,890
Speaker 2: Just show how desperate people were for this treatment though.

270
00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:15,090
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people today spend a great deal for fertility treatment.

271
00:15:15,130 --> 00:15:16,730
Speaker 1: You know, it's enormously important.

272
00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:19,570
Speaker 2: Of course, just cast your mind back to when viagra

273
00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:20,210
Speaker 2: was launched.

274
00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:21,930
Speaker 1: Yeah, people lost.

275
00:15:21,770 --> 00:15:24,050
Speaker 2: Their minds with it, didn't it. There was reports of

276
00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:27,370
Speaker 2: doctors having to stamp prescriptions. With a rubber stamp because

277
00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:30,170
Speaker 2: the hand was cramping from signing so many of them.

278
00:15:30,330 --> 00:15:33,570
Speaker 2: So that's how popular viagra was. This was their viagra, Yes,

279
00:15:33,610 --> 00:15:35,970
Speaker 2: and they really thought that it was going to work.

280
00:15:36,010 --> 00:15:38,050
Speaker 2: So he is cues around the block, and not just

281
00:15:38,050 --> 00:15:40,850
Speaker 2: from the local community. There was Chinese patients who came

282
00:15:40,890 --> 00:15:42,850
Speaker 2: to see him that had been traveling around the world

283
00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:45,290
Speaker 2: and thought they would just stop off in Kansas to

284
00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:48,610
Speaker 2: have goat testicles put inside themselves, and it becomes this

285
00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:51,210
Speaker 2: huge media sensation.

286
00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:54,290
Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons why nerds like me

287
00:15:54,770 --> 00:15:59,290
Speaker 1: are very keen on randomized trials, because people are able

288
00:15:59,330 --> 00:16:02,570
Speaker 1: to convince themselves that all sorts of things work. Impotence

289
00:16:02,890 --> 00:16:05,690
Speaker 1: is sometimes just in your head. Yeah, Sometimes it's got

290
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:07,810
Speaker 1: a physical cause. Sometimes you're overthinking it.

291
00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:08,210
Speaker 2: Yeah.

292
00:16:08,410 --> 00:16:10,770
Speaker 1: And I can well imagine that this guy went home

293
00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:15,250
Speaker 1: from his goatland operation full of confidence and suddenly he

294
00:16:15,250 --> 00:16:16,010
Speaker 1: he could get it up.

295
00:16:16,290 --> 00:16:19,170
Speaker 2: So when they look at placebo effect, it's more effective

296
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:21,370
Speaker 2: if the person a ministering the treatment looks like a

297
00:16:21,370 --> 00:16:23,930
Speaker 2: doctor has a white coatconn dot cells doctor. If there's

298
00:16:23,930 --> 00:16:27,570
Speaker 2: some level of surgical intervention, we're more inclined to believe.

299
00:16:27,970 --> 00:16:30,610
Speaker 2: And this has got all of the above, plus when

300
00:16:30,610 --> 00:16:33,050
Speaker 2: they go home they actually do have a lump in

301
00:16:33,090 --> 00:16:37,130
Speaker 2: their scrotum that is a coach testical. So I mean,

302
00:16:37,650 --> 00:16:41,090
Speaker 2: I am unaware if there is any medical benefit whatsoever

303
00:16:41,770 --> 00:16:43,570
Speaker 2: to do in this. I'm going to go out on

304
00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:44,570
Speaker 2: a limb and say.

305
00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:48,490
Speaker 1: No, Kate, you can't argue with results. Baby Billy was born.

306
00:16:48,650 --> 00:16:52,930
Speaker 1: Baby Billy, the first goatland baby. Customers are happy. I

307
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:56,490
Speaker 1: can't imagine that anything is going to go wrong, but

308
00:16:57,930 --> 00:17:01,250
Speaker 1: we'll find out after the break. You are listening to

309
00:17:01,450 --> 00:17:04,850
Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales with me Tim Harford with my special guest,

310
00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:08,930
Speaker 1: doctor Kate Lister of the brilliant Betwixt the Sheets podcast,

311
00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:12,170
Speaker 1: And so after the break we will hear the next

312
00:17:12,330 --> 00:17:16,010
Speaker 1: twist in the story about how the goat gland doctor

313
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:30,330
Speaker 1: became a radio star. Welcome back to Cautionary Tales with me,

314
00:17:30,490 --> 00:17:35,210
Speaker 1: Tim Harford and the inimitable doctor Kate Lister. So, Kate,

315
00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:38,450
Speaker 1: we were one hundred years ago, the early nineteen twenties.

316
00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:42,850
Speaker 1: At this point, just how big was Brinkley's goat gland

317
00:17:42,970 --> 00:17:44,250
Speaker 1: transplant operation.

318
00:17:44,810 --> 00:17:47,490
Speaker 2: It was big, and it was growing all the time

319
00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:51,690
Speaker 2: because the more he did it, the more he self publicized.

320
00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:54,490
Speaker 2: The more people wanted to come and see him, so

321
00:17:54,530 --> 00:17:57,570
Speaker 2: it becomes this beast that's feeding on itself. And he

322
00:17:57,610 --> 00:18:02,170
Speaker 2: would do things like get famous newspaper editors to come

323
00:18:02,210 --> 00:18:05,170
Speaker 2: and have a transplant, and they would then report on

324
00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:09,650
Speaker 2: their progress. Some guy from the La Times, Henry Chandler,

325
00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:13,570
Speaker 2: came down, and I know, I know that's that's commitment

326
00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:14,130
Speaker 2: to journalists.

327
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:16,850
Speaker 1: I've med a couple of newspapers. I'm not sure they'd.

328
00:18:16,570 --> 00:18:21,490
Speaker 2: Go for the more testicons, but he would do things

329
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:23,610
Speaker 2: like that, and then he would and then so then

330
00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:28,130
Speaker 2: he's got major newspapers writing about him and his absolute

331
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:33,530
Speaker 2: true degra is. He leapt into radio and he utilized

332
00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:36,170
Speaker 2: that in such a powerful way. He set up his

333
00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:39,690
Speaker 2: own radio station and they called it KFKB.

334
00:18:39,290 --> 00:18:42,330
Speaker 1: Kansas First Kansas.

335
00:18:41,410 --> 00:18:43,010
Speaker 2: Kansas First, Kansas Best.

336
00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:45,730
Speaker 1: But it's very much it's the TikTok of the nineteen twenty.

337
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:49,010
Speaker 1: This is the new cutting edge way of communicating.

338
00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:51,810
Speaker 2: And it really was cutting edge as well. And he

339
00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:56,810
Speaker 2: would have local acts and local music groups come on

340
00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:59,250
Speaker 2: and do their little bit, like local choirs would come

341
00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:02,570
Speaker 2: on and sing. But as well, he had his own

342
00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:07,210
Speaker 2: segment twice daily where he would dispense medical advice, which

343
00:19:07,730 --> 00:19:11,210
Speaker 2: you're into very dubious territory here. Again, people from all

344
00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:15,130
Speaker 2: over the country would write in about their medical complaints.

345
00:19:14,690 --> 00:19:16,050
Speaker 1: All over the country. I thought it was a local

346
00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:16,690
Speaker 1: radio station.

347
00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:20,290
Speaker 2: It had a really big reach. It it wasn't listened

348
00:19:20,290 --> 00:19:22,690
Speaker 2: to just in Kansas. Is that the power of this

349
00:19:22,730 --> 00:19:26,170
Speaker 2: thing was enormous. I think at one point it was

350
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:29,490
Speaker 2: the biggest radio station in the country, the most popular

351
00:19:29,530 --> 00:19:31,050
Speaker 2: and most listened to radio show.

352
00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:36,690
Speaker 1: So he's a huge success. Massive that sort of success

353
00:19:36,810 --> 00:19:38,570
Speaker 1: must start to attract screutiny.

354
00:19:38,650 --> 00:19:41,450
Speaker 2: Well it does. It's not local radio, so other people

355
00:19:41,530 --> 00:19:44,370
Speaker 2: are listening in, and you've got a situation where Brinkley

356
00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:49,330
Speaker 2: is reading out random people's medical complaints, diagnosing them live

357
00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:52,370
Speaker 2: on the air, and then prescribing a treatment that only

358
00:19:52,490 --> 00:19:58,170
Speaker 2: his pharmacy could supply. Oneing is going off there. But

359
00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:01,090
Speaker 2: it was again massively, massively popular. But you can imagine

360
00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:05,490
Speaker 2: other doctors, real doctors with actual credentials, listening into this

361
00:20:05,850 --> 00:20:06,570
Speaker 2: and going.

362
00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:09,370
Speaker 1: Hang on a minute, hang on a minute.

363
00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:13,410
Speaker 2: Just give me a second. So he's getting way, way,

364
00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:15,410
Speaker 2: way too big for his boots. So he's making loads

365
00:20:15,410 --> 00:20:18,970
Speaker 2: of money, and his nemesis was an actual proper doctor

366
00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:23,690
Speaker 2: Maurice Fishbeine, who was a member of the American Medical Association,

367
00:20:24,090 --> 00:20:26,970
Speaker 2: and he was hell bent on exposing quacks and charlatans,

368
00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:29,770
Speaker 2: of which, as we've already said, there were many, and

369
00:20:29,850 --> 00:20:31,890
Speaker 2: this was his life's work. So he was on to

370
00:20:32,050 --> 00:20:33,930
Speaker 2: Brinkley pretty quickly.

371
00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:35,930
Speaker 1: And he didn't hold back, did he.

372
00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:37,650
Speaker 2: He did not, He did not.

373
00:20:38,330 --> 00:20:41,770
Speaker 1: Got one quote in front of me says he described

374
00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:45,850
Speaker 1: Brinkley as a charlatan of the rankest sort, whose radio

375
00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:49,890
Speaker 1: station was being used to victimize people and to enrich himself,

376
00:20:50,250 --> 00:20:52,130
Speaker 1: which I don't know seems fair enough.

377
00:20:52,210 --> 00:20:55,090
Speaker 2: All true, that's exactly what was happening. But you've got

378
00:20:55,090 --> 00:20:58,610
Speaker 2: to remember that Brinkley had managed to cultivate this huge

379
00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:03,410
Speaker 2: popularity in the local community and well in the wider

380
00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:06,890
Speaker 2: community as well. So to begin with Maurice Fishbeine, there's

381
00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:09,610
Speaker 2: this sort of lone voice, like all you mean trying

382
00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:12,690
Speaker 2: to take away our young successful doctor. And of course

383
00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:15,290
Speaker 2: the Milford residents love it because it's bringing loads of

384
00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:18,010
Speaker 2: money to the town. It's bringing loads of business into

385
00:21:18,010 --> 00:21:18,370
Speaker 2: the town.

386
00:21:18,490 --> 00:21:20,810
Speaker 1: They don't want to challenge, they don't want to challenge.

387
00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:21,930
Speaker 2: Shut up, shut up.

388
00:21:22,170 --> 00:21:24,730
Speaker 1: I mean I found this when Cautionary Tails did the

389
00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:28,370
Speaker 1: story of the Radium Dial Company and these poor young

390
00:21:28,410 --> 00:21:32,730
Speaker 1: women who were giving themselves radium poisoning working painting this

391
00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:36,810
Speaker 1: radioactive paint on watchfaces and other things. One of the

392
00:21:36,810 --> 00:21:40,370
Speaker 1: problems they faced was that not only did the doctors

393
00:21:40,370 --> 00:21:42,570
Speaker 1: not take them seriously, and not only did the company

394
00:21:42,610 --> 00:21:46,850
Speaker 1: deny everything, but their local community ostracized them. Yeah, because

395
00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:49,650
Speaker 1: they were like, you are going to shut down this factory.

396
00:21:50,570 --> 00:21:53,730
Speaker 1: It's the nineteen thirties, it's a tough time economically. You're

397
00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:56,330
Speaker 1: going to destroy everyone's jobs just because you're moaning about

398
00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:58,770
Speaker 1: the fact that your jaws falling off or something. They

399
00:21:58,810 --> 00:22:02,410
Speaker 1: were so lonely because the local community would not back

400
00:22:02,490 --> 00:22:06,330
Speaker 1: them against the Radium Dial Company. And it seems like

401
00:22:06,370 --> 00:22:08,930
Speaker 1: we've got a similar thing going on here with Brinkley

402
00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:11,970
Speaker 1: that yeah, okay, fine, maybe the goat glands work, maybe

403
00:22:11,970 --> 00:22:13,890
Speaker 1: they don't, but this is jobs, this is.

404
00:22:13,930 --> 00:22:17,410
Speaker 2: Jobs, this is income. And it's also put Milford on

405
00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:22,130
Speaker 2: the map. Great the capital, isn't it fabulous? And there

406
00:22:22,130 --> 00:22:24,170
Speaker 2: are loads of people out there really think that he's

407
00:22:24,610 --> 00:22:27,090
Speaker 2: helped them. There are many others that did not. He

408
00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:29,970
Speaker 2: was sued at least twelve times in the nineteen thirties

409
00:22:30,050 --> 00:22:34,850
Speaker 2: because unsurprisingly, these operations were not the success. He's not

410
00:22:34,890 --> 00:22:36,730
Speaker 2: going to give the testimonials of the people who wander

411
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:40,290
Speaker 2: back in and going scrotum's gone purple. There were people

412
00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:43,570
Speaker 2: having infections, there were people that died. Actually, so he

413
00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:46,530
Speaker 2: was soon and kind of managed to bat it away

414
00:22:46,570 --> 00:22:49,890
Speaker 2: and hush it up each time. But Maurice Fishbeine was

415
00:22:49,930 --> 00:22:52,810
Speaker 2: not going to let it go. He was extremely angry,

416
00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:56,490
Speaker 2: and so he starts exposing him in very highly publicized

417
00:22:56,530 --> 00:22:58,850
Speaker 2: news articles, and then more people are kind of asking

418
00:22:58,930 --> 00:23:01,250
Speaker 2: questions of like hang on a minute, which means not

419
00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:03,610
Speaker 2: a doctor, that kind of thing.

420
00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:05,890
Speaker 1: So do the authorities do anything?

421
00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:08,450
Speaker 2: They do Eventually, I mean they have to get involved

422
00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:10,810
Speaker 2: because he's probably to seeing medicine without a license. He's

423
00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:16,170
Speaker 2: operating on people with no qualifications or reason to do

424
00:23:16,210 --> 00:23:20,410
Speaker 2: this at all. So eventually it is frowned upon. Even

425
00:23:20,530 --> 00:23:24,010
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirties, it's cause for people to have a

426
00:23:24,090 --> 00:23:27,210
Speaker 2: think about it. So in nineteen thirty he was called

427
00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:31,170
Speaker 2: before the Kansas Medical Board to face eleven charges. It

428
00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:34,530
Speaker 2: is like, can you show as your medical certificate? And

429
00:23:34,610 --> 00:23:37,050
Speaker 2: he's just holding up a piece of paper with doctor

430
00:23:37,050 --> 00:23:38,210
Speaker 2: written and crayon on it.

431
00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:42,770
Speaker 1: So when the Kansas Medical Board looked into his qualifications

432
00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:44,490
Speaker 1: and what sort of investigation did they do?

433
00:23:44,690 --> 00:23:47,930
Speaker 2: They did a pretty thorough investigation, actually, which in an

434
00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:52,130
Speaker 2: act of it's not even confidence, it's just lunacy. But

435
00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:55,330
Speaker 2: this is how much of a charlatan he was. He

436
00:23:55,370 --> 00:23:58,130
Speaker 2: actually invited members of the medical Board came and watch

437
00:23:58,210 --> 00:23:59,690
Speaker 2: him do one of his procedures.

438
00:23:59,770 --> 00:24:00,930
Speaker 1: And they came, and they came.

439
00:24:00,970 --> 00:24:04,170
Speaker 2: Of course they came. So representatives come down and they

440
00:24:04,210 --> 00:24:09,330
Speaker 2: watch him literally sewing goat balls into a human being

441
00:24:09,890 --> 00:24:14,090
Speaker 2: with unsterilized equipment, at which point he's like tadah and

442
00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:19,330
Speaker 2: is genuinely shocked that they go, holy, no more for you, No,

443
00:24:19,450 --> 00:24:21,810
Speaker 2: you are done. It's worth saying as well here that

444
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:24,650
Speaker 2: the boy goats survived, but the girl goats that he

445
00:24:24,730 --> 00:24:26,930
Speaker 2: took overaries out of the graft into women did not.

446
00:24:27,410 --> 00:24:28,690
Speaker 1: You will know one think of the goats.

447
00:24:28,810 --> 00:24:31,050
Speaker 2: No, just somebody justice for the goats. That's all that

448
00:24:31,090 --> 00:24:33,490
Speaker 2: I'm saying. They often get left out of this particular story.

449
00:24:34,050 --> 00:24:36,530
Speaker 1: I see that his license to practice was revoked on

450
00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:40,010
Speaker 1: the grounds of gross immorality and unprofessional conduct.

451
00:24:40,170 --> 00:24:42,130
Speaker 2: Yes, you can't get much firmer than that.

452
00:24:42,290 --> 00:24:45,770
Speaker 1: Can you No, you can't. Okay, he's lost his license

453
00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:48,850
Speaker 1: to practice medicine, potentially a disaster. He's still got the

454
00:24:48,890 --> 00:24:51,210
Speaker 1: radio though, He's still got that potential cash cow.

455
00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:52,890
Speaker 2: He does, and it's a big cash cow as well,

456
00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:56,770
Speaker 2: And he's still got his Doctor Brinkley Show, and he's

457
00:24:56,810 --> 00:25:00,050
Speaker 2: still offering up medical advice and people are still writing

458
00:25:00,090 --> 00:25:04,090
Speaker 2: in and he's still pedaling his quack cures and it's

459
00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:08,130
Speaker 2: all right for a while, but our mate Morris Fishbeine

460
00:25:08,210 --> 00:25:10,530
Speaker 2: hasn't forgotten about it, and the pressure is now coming

461
00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:15,250
Speaker 2: on the Kansas authorities to investigate whether it is ethical

462
00:25:15,410 --> 00:25:20,850
Speaker 2: or not to have a disbarred lunatic offering up medical advice.

463
00:25:21,410 --> 00:25:24,210
Speaker 1: Yes, and the Federal Radio Commission get involved in the end,

464
00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:26,530
Speaker 1: the spoil sports.

465
00:25:25,970 --> 00:25:29,690
Speaker 2: Spoil sports. But again, that's exactly what he is doing.

466
00:25:29,890 --> 00:25:33,090
Speaker 2: He isn't a medically qualified doctor. The advice that he's

467
00:25:33,130 --> 00:25:38,010
Speaker 2: given up is just gibberish, and he's administering care to

468
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:41,490
Speaker 2: actual sick people. They're writing in with things that really

469
00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:42,250
Speaker 2: are wrong with them.

470
00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:44,010
Speaker 1: He's got no idea what he's talking about, not.

471
00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:46,930
Speaker 2: A clue, not a clue. So eventually they have to

472
00:25:47,130 --> 00:25:50,290
Speaker 2: pull the plug. On it and no more surgery and

473
00:25:50,370 --> 00:25:51,570
Speaker 2: no more radio for you.

474
00:25:51,650 --> 00:25:54,610
Speaker 1: So things are not looking good for doctor John R.

475
00:25:54,690 --> 00:25:58,010
Speaker 1: Brinkley because he's not a doctor anymore, and neither is

476
00:25:58,050 --> 00:26:02,450
Speaker 1: he a DJ anymore. He's lost his radio show. Surely, though,

477
00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:05,570
Speaker 1: this can't be the end. This man is a master

478
00:26:05,650 --> 00:26:09,210
Speaker 1: of reinvention. Doctor Kate Lister will be back to he

479
00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:19,170
Speaker 1: knew his story after the break. You're listening to Cautionary

480
00:26:19,210 --> 00:26:22,370
Speaker 1: Tales with me Tim Harford and my guest, doctor Kate

481
00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:27,450
Speaker 1: Lister of the Betwixt the Sheets podcast. So, Kate, we've

482
00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:30,010
Speaker 1: been hearing the story of doctor Brinkley is a showman

483
00:26:30,050 --> 00:26:34,170
Speaker 1: without a show because he's lost his goat gland practice,

484
00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:37,210
Speaker 1: he's lost his radio station. What's he going to do?

485
00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:39,850
Speaker 2: If there was any other normal human being, you'd just

486
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:42,530
Speaker 2: give up, wouldn't you. You'd be I've been shamed on

487
00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:45,850
Speaker 2: a national level here, I've been exposed as the worst

488
00:26:45,930 --> 00:26:51,530
Speaker 2: kind of charlatan. But not Brinkley. He decides politics. That's

489
00:26:51,570 --> 00:26:54,330
Speaker 2: the place for me. That's what I will do. So

490
00:26:54,370 --> 00:26:55,050
Speaker 2: he who.

491
00:26:54,890 --> 00:26:57,610
Speaker 1: Would have thought that a failed convent would be attracted

492
00:26:57,610 --> 00:26:58,290
Speaker 1: by politics?

493
00:26:58,490 --> 00:27:01,170
Speaker 2: It was the olden days, Tim will We'll never see

494
00:27:01,210 --> 00:27:05,890
Speaker 2: the like again. So he runs twice to be the

495
00:27:06,530 --> 00:27:07,650
Speaker 2: governor of Kansas.

496
00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:08,570
Speaker 1: That's a big job.

497
00:27:08,770 --> 00:27:09,530
Speaker 2: It's a big job.

498
00:27:09,570 --> 00:27:12,090
Speaker 1: Well, he's not just running for mayor governor of Kansas.

499
00:27:12,130 --> 00:27:15,530
Speaker 2: As we've discovered, not being remotely qualified for a position

500
00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:19,530
Speaker 2: is no obstacle to Brinkley. He just can do attitude.

501
00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:23,330
Speaker 1: And so he's got all the stars of his KFKB

502
00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:27,490
Speaker 1: radio station who can kind of chill for him and

503
00:27:27,530 --> 00:27:29,490
Speaker 1: support him. How does it go? I mean, is he

504
00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:30,290
Speaker 1: is he crushed?

505
00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:33,690
Speaker 2: Not nearly as epically as you would hope that he

506
00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:36,850
Speaker 2: would be. It's a reasonably close call. I think eventually

507
00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:39,410
Speaker 2: he came in third. I think. So they had this

508
00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:43,410
Speaker 2: rule in place where if the vote didn't match exactly

509
00:27:43,610 --> 00:27:48,010
Speaker 2: the name that he's running under, which was John R. Brinkley,

510
00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:50,930
Speaker 2: then the vote would be discounted. So if somebody didn't

511
00:27:50,970 --> 00:27:54,010
Speaker 2: put J. R. Brinkley, if they just put something like

512
00:27:54,090 --> 00:27:56,930
Speaker 2: Doc Brinkley, it would just be thrown out immediately. And

513
00:27:56,970 --> 00:27:59,170
Speaker 2: it has been suggested that if that hadn't happened, he

514
00:27:59,250 --> 00:27:59,970
Speaker 2: might have taken it.

515
00:28:00,250 --> 00:28:03,250
Speaker 1: So he doesn't win in nineteen thirty because of all

516
00:28:03,250 --> 00:28:06,170
Speaker 1: those votes for Doc Brinkley and John Brinkley and he

517
00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:08,890
Speaker 1: doesn't get in. He nearly makes it. He tries again

518
00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:13,810
Speaker 1: Ineen thirty two, loses again. Can't be it for Brinkley.

519
00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:17,050
Speaker 2: Well, the second time that he ran, it did more

520
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:20,730
Speaker 2: damage to his public image because his opponents realized that

521
00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:23,610
Speaker 2: they could make a mockery of him, and they did.

522
00:28:23,730 --> 00:28:27,370
Speaker 2: They held him up as just this crank goat ball

523
00:28:27,450 --> 00:28:32,970
Speaker 2: guy who's been disbarred and discredited, and so it created

524
00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:34,250
Speaker 2: even done.

525
00:28:34,090 --> 00:28:37,250
Speaker 1: More damage earlier. But okay, eventually they figure out that

526
00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:37,770
Speaker 1: sort of time.

527
00:28:37,970 --> 00:28:43,730
Speaker 2: Actually, so he upsticks and he moves to dl Rio, Texas,

528
00:28:43,810 --> 00:28:45,970
Speaker 2: which is way down there on the border, where he

529
00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:50,050
Speaker 2: tries again to practice medicine. Only this time he takes

530
00:28:50,130 --> 00:28:53,370
Speaker 2: an increased interest in people's prostate glands.

531
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:56,130
Speaker 1: Why do I think that's worse? Somehow, I think that's

532
00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:56,650
Speaker 1: even worse.

533
00:28:56,690 --> 00:29:01,490
Speaker 2: But okay, I don't think that he's injecting or grafting

534
00:29:01,530 --> 00:29:04,770
Speaker 2: anything into anybody, but he's certainly examining people. And this

535
00:29:04,850 --> 00:29:07,970
Speaker 2: is like a world of suppositories and it's all nonsense.

536
00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:09,690
Speaker 2: And again it's the same thing. It's that, Oh, it's

537
00:29:09,730 --> 00:29:14,530
Speaker 2: manly vigor it will rejuvenate you. He gets another radio show,

538
00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:19,050
Speaker 2: radio another radio show, which again proves to be incredibly popular,

539
00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:21,690
Speaker 2: and again is his downfall. Because he can't just go

540
00:29:21,770 --> 00:29:24,610
Speaker 2: somewhere and shut up and do his weird prostate thing.

541
00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:28,650
Speaker 2: He has to broadcast it, so again he attracts attention.

542
00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:31,690
Speaker 1: But the border is important there, right, because he can

543
00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:35,050
Speaker 1: put the radio transmitter in Mexico. Yeah.

544
00:29:35,410 --> 00:29:39,370
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he gets around the American authorities that way,

545
00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:41,250
Speaker 2: because he's not allowed to do it in America but

546
00:29:41,530 --> 00:29:43,610
Speaker 2: from Mexico, even though they can hear it in America.

547
00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:45,570
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they called it a border blaster. So

548
00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:49,610
Speaker 1: he's got this massive radio mast near his home, but

549
00:29:49,690 --> 00:29:54,290
Speaker 1: it's in Mexico, and therefore he's immune to American regulation.

550
00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:57,530
Speaker 2: And again, this show is broadcast across the states. You

551
00:29:57,570 --> 00:29:59,810
Speaker 2: could pick it up in every single one of the states.

552
00:29:59,890 --> 00:30:00,930
Speaker 2: It was that powerful.

553
00:30:01,250 --> 00:30:04,650
Speaker 1: So he resurrects his career, if indeed it ever really

554
00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:08,130
Speaker 1: went away. By nineteen thirty eight, he's got another hospital

555
00:30:08,330 --> 00:30:11,810
Speaker 1: in ar Yeah, he's living the high life. He's got mansions,

556
00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:16,570
Speaker 1: he's got yachts, cadillacs, luxury holidays. Nothing can go wrong

557
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:17,610
Speaker 1: for Doc Brinkley.

558
00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:20,290
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Maurice Fishburne hadn't forgotten about him.

559
00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:23,210
Speaker 1: Oh right, he's old nemesis, old nemesis.

560
00:30:23,410 --> 00:30:26,250
Speaker 2: And of course, because Brinkley can't keep quiet and stay

561
00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:30,530
Speaker 2: off the radar, Maurice Fishbine is just like, right, I'll

562
00:30:30,530 --> 00:30:34,010
Speaker 2: have you, and he publishes a number of exposes calling

563
00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:37,290
Speaker 2: him a quack and a charlatan and in a is

564
00:30:37,330 --> 00:30:39,170
Speaker 2: it a desperate act? Is it a mad act? It's

565
00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:43,010
Speaker 2: certainly what Oscar Wilde ended up doing. Brinkley, to defend

566
00:30:43,090 --> 00:30:45,370
Speaker 2: himself against this, decides that he's going to sue him

567
00:30:45,410 --> 00:30:49,570
Speaker 2: for libel. Bold move a terrible don't do it if

568
00:30:49,770 --> 00:30:52,610
Speaker 2: what the person is saying is perfectly.

569
00:30:52,130 --> 00:30:55,050
Speaker 1: True, because it all then gets laid out in court,

570
00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:55,970
Speaker 1: all of it, All of.

571
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:58,690
Speaker 2: It gets laid out in court. The goat glands, the

572
00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:02,930
Speaker 2: unsterilized equipment they're operating while drunk, the fact that forty

573
00:31:03,010 --> 00:31:06,090
Speaker 2: two people that we know of died from these awful

574
00:31:06,090 --> 00:31:09,930
Speaker 2: operations because of infection, and god knows what else, and

575
00:31:09,930 --> 00:31:12,490
Speaker 2: how many goats died. Justice for the goats.

576
00:31:12,530 --> 00:31:14,050
Speaker 1: I think we're probably gonna lead with the forty two

577
00:31:14,050 --> 00:31:18,650
Speaker 1: people dying suggestion. But yes, fair enough, but that's not

578
00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:20,010
Speaker 1: good for Brinkley, And.

579
00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:22,730
Speaker 2: None of it's good for Brinkley. Obviously, the court finds

580
00:31:22,810 --> 00:31:23,810
Speaker 2: in fish mind's favor.

581
00:31:24,050 --> 00:31:28,010
Speaker 1: I love the jury verdict is that Brinkley should be

582
00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:30,890
Speaker 1: considered a charlatan and a quack in the ordinary, well

583
00:31:30,970 --> 00:31:33,770
Speaker 1: understood meaning of these words like it. I like it.

584
00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:37,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there you go. And now there's a legal

585
00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:41,570
Speaker 2: precedent for it. He is legally a quack and a charlatan.

586
00:31:41,770 --> 00:31:43,290
Speaker 1: And then I would love to have been a flower

587
00:31:43,290 --> 00:31:46,530
Speaker 1: on a wall when this letter arrives. The Irs sue

588
00:31:46,610 --> 00:31:47,930
Speaker 1: him for tax fraud.

589
00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:49,850
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he wasn't paying his taxes. Of course he wasn't.

590
00:31:49,850 --> 00:31:50,490
Speaker 1: Who would have thought?

591
00:31:50,530 --> 00:31:51,370
Speaker 2: Who would have thought?

592
00:31:51,530 --> 00:31:53,490
Speaker 1: And then the Post Office sue him for male fraud.

593
00:31:53,970 --> 00:31:57,250
Speaker 2: Yeah, people sued him. It's like shark circling, isn't it?

594
00:31:57,290 --> 00:32:00,410
Speaker 2: And like once somebody's made the first bite is they're

595
00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:03,730
Speaker 2: all going him. He loses everything and we're not going

596
00:32:03,770 --> 00:32:05,610
Speaker 2: to feel remotely sorry for him at all.

597
00:32:06,130 --> 00:32:08,650
Speaker 1: Right, So this is the end of the nineteen thirties.

598
00:32:09,170 --> 00:32:12,050
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's basically the end for Brinkley's career.

599
00:32:12,170 --> 00:32:15,050
Speaker 2: Pretty much all avenues have been cut after him. He

600
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:17,290
Speaker 2: kind of limps along for a little bit, muttering about

601
00:32:17,290 --> 00:32:19,770
Speaker 2: the injustice of it and about trying to resurrect some

602
00:32:19,890 --> 00:32:24,850
Speaker 2: kind of nonsense career, but he eventually suffers multiple heart attacks,

603
00:32:24,850 --> 00:32:27,930
Speaker 2: so his health is failing, and he died in nineteen

604
00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:30,610
Speaker 2: forty two, penniless and in disgrace.

605
00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:35,130
Speaker 1: Kate, this has been a joy. Whenever we have one

606
00:32:35,130 --> 00:32:38,770
Speaker 1: of our cautionary conversations, I always try to reflect, always

607
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:42,770
Speaker 1: want to learn the lessons from history. So one lesson

608
00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:46,170
Speaker 1: I've learned is that I'm not going to have goat

609
00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:47,810
Speaker 1: testicles implanted in my scrotum.

610
00:32:48,050 --> 00:32:48,770
Speaker 2: A wise move.

611
00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:51,450
Speaker 1: But maybe there were who knows, maybe there were even

612
00:32:51,490 --> 00:32:54,010
Speaker 1: broader lessons to draw. What do you take from all this?

613
00:32:54,730 --> 00:32:56,890
Speaker 2: I think there are lots of lessons from this for

614
00:32:56,930 --> 00:33:00,810
Speaker 2: the modern world, because medical quackery is still very much

615
00:33:00,850 --> 00:33:04,450
Speaker 2: with us. There's still people out there pedaling or manners

616
00:33:04,450 --> 00:33:07,210
Speaker 2: of lotions and potions and pills and powders claiming to

617
00:33:07,250 --> 00:33:08,810
Speaker 2: do this, that and the other, and it doesn't do

618
00:33:08,850 --> 00:33:11,610
Speaker 2: any than of the sort. And I think check your

619
00:33:11,690 --> 00:33:15,730
Speaker 2: credentials as well as like look into the background of

620
00:33:15,770 --> 00:33:17,650
Speaker 2: the person that's selling you something. Just because they put

621
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:20,090
Speaker 2: on a good show doesn't mean that they absolutely know

622
00:33:20,130 --> 00:33:20,970
Speaker 2: what they're talking about.

623
00:33:21,130 --> 00:33:25,090
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's amazing how much gets sold basically

624
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:28,170
Speaker 1: by influencers. Now you know, it's on YouTube, it's on TikTok,

625
00:33:28,850 --> 00:33:34,690
Speaker 1: And actually the main reason why people buy it is because, well,

626
00:33:34,770 --> 00:33:37,250
Speaker 1: they like the influence, so they find them impressive. They

627
00:33:37,250 --> 00:33:39,370
Speaker 1: think they're cool, and that's enough.

628
00:33:39,530 --> 00:33:40,970
Speaker 2: We should just be a bit firm with that and

629
00:33:41,050 --> 00:33:44,010
Speaker 2: just say no, we shouldn't be selling nonsense to people,

630
00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:44,810
Speaker 2: no matter what it does.

631
00:33:44,970 --> 00:33:48,490
Speaker 1: I'm all in favor of actual evidence evidence. You know.

632
00:33:48,530 --> 00:33:51,170
Speaker 1: The other thing this whole story reminded me of Kate

633
00:33:51,410 --> 00:33:55,050
Speaker 1: is do you know lydia E pinkm Lily the Pink?

634
00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:58,010
Speaker 2: I do know the story of Lily the Pink.

635
00:33:57,850 --> 00:34:02,450
Speaker 1: Yes, So we did a cautionary tale about her. And

636
00:34:02,970 --> 00:34:06,490
Speaker 1: as you know, she developed this medicinal compound most efficacious

637
00:34:06,490 --> 00:34:08,850
Speaker 1: in every case, and it was basically just booze and

638
00:34:08,850 --> 00:34:12,090
Speaker 1: some herbs and probably didn't do much harm. Probably also

639
00:34:12,130 --> 00:34:15,570
Speaker 1: didn't do much good. But what I was really struck

640
00:34:15,610 --> 00:34:17,890
Speaker 1: by is, oh, yeah, she's a quack, right, there's no

641
00:34:17,930 --> 00:34:21,690
Speaker 1: evidence that this works. She's got no particular credentials, and

642
00:34:21,970 --> 00:34:23,770
Speaker 1: they set up this operation and it makes a huge

643
00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:26,850
Speaker 1: amount of money. Then I looked at what the actual

644
00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:32,050
Speaker 1: qualified medical profession had to offer for women's troubles. So

645
00:34:32,250 --> 00:34:36,530
Speaker 1: we're talking period pains, extreme period pains, miscarriages, prolapse uteruses,

646
00:34:37,170 --> 00:34:40,250
Speaker 1: none of which the docs at the time were really

647
00:34:40,370 --> 00:34:43,810
Speaker 1: very interested in diagnosing. But what doctors were doing was

648
00:34:44,290 --> 00:34:49,130
Speaker 1: prescribing medicines such as calamel. Calamel's basically just a mercury compound.

649
00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:52,210
Speaker 1: It rots your face away, it's poisonous. I mean, Lily

650
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:54,410
Speaker 1: was basically just giving people some medicine that was about

651
00:34:54,410 --> 00:34:56,730
Speaker 1: as strong as sherry. Wasn't really going to do them

652
00:34:56,730 --> 00:34:59,330
Speaker 1: any harm. And so one of the lessons that I drew,

653
00:34:59,450 --> 00:35:01,850
Speaker 1: and I think this does tie into to Brinkley too,

654
00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:06,450
Speaker 1: is if people are not getting what they need from

655
00:35:06,490 --> 00:35:09,050
Speaker 1: mainstream medicine, of course they're going to look for alternatives.

656
00:35:09,730 --> 00:35:14,210
Speaker 2: And Lydia Pinkham was another master personal image, wasn't she.

657
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:17,530
Speaker 2: She had her face on billboards up and down the country.

658
00:35:17,690 --> 00:35:24,090
Speaker 2: Is this trustworthy woman with her efficacious compounds so famous?

659
00:35:25,090 --> 00:35:29,050
Speaker 1: Great little story when Queen Victoria died some newspapersors didn't

660
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:31,850
Speaker 1: actually have a photograph of Queen Victoria, so they slapped

661
00:35:31,850 --> 00:35:35,650
Speaker 1: a picture of Lydia Pinkham and Stixley. You know, lady

662
00:35:35,650 --> 00:35:37,290
Speaker 1: of a certain age looks about right.

663
00:35:37,290 --> 00:35:39,130
Speaker 2: Close enough, close enough?

664
00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:42,210
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I suppose that this is the broader lesson, right.

665
00:35:42,250 --> 00:35:44,090
Speaker 1: If we don't have the real thing, we go for

666
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:47,170
Speaker 1: a substitute. That's true if it's a photograph of Queen

667
00:35:47,250 --> 00:35:51,250
Speaker 1: Victoria or Lydia Pinkham. But it's also true for medicines. Yeah.

668
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:55,970
Speaker 1: So two very different characters, but fundamentally they're both spotting

669
00:35:56,010 --> 00:35:58,170
Speaker 1: a gap in the market and exploiting it.

670
00:35:58,370 --> 00:36:01,650
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, or marketing themselves really successfully.

671
00:36:01,770 --> 00:36:05,770
Speaker 1: Marketing is a It's the best drug, isn't it? Kate,

672
00:36:06,050 --> 00:36:08,610
Speaker 1: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much

673
00:36:08,610 --> 00:36:10,210
Speaker 1: for joining me. What do we call it?

674
00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:13,770
Speaker 2: Betwixt the Cautionary Cautionary Tales?

675
00:36:15,610 --> 00:36:19,730
Speaker 1: Well, if people would like a pure and unadulterated shot

676
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:23,650
Speaker 1: of Betwixt the Sheets. The podcast is available in all

677
00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:24,410
Speaker 1: the usual pod.

678
00:36:24,250 --> 00:36:27,490
Speaker 2: Places available wherever you get your podcast. Just give us

679
00:36:27,490 --> 00:36:29,090
Speaker 2: a Google and we will jump.

680
00:36:28,930 --> 00:36:31,690
Speaker 1: Up and just give us a five second. What is

681
00:36:31,690 --> 00:36:33,410
Speaker 1: Betwixt the Sheets? For people who don't know.

682
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:36,290
Speaker 2: Betwixt the sheet is us having a look at the

683
00:36:36,290 --> 00:36:39,930
Speaker 2: ced side of history and getting betwixt the sheets of

684
00:36:39,970 --> 00:36:41,450
Speaker 2: the great and the good, and they're not so great

685
00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:44,690
Speaker 2: in the good as well, and learning what our ancestors

686
00:36:44,690 --> 00:36:46,130
Speaker 2: got up to in the sack.

687
00:36:46,570 --> 00:36:49,530
Speaker 1: It's a joy to listen to. I love it, so

688
00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:53,130
Speaker 1: I hope some more people will discover it. Katelister, thank

689
00:36:53,170 --> 00:36:53,690
Speaker 1: you so much.

690
00:36:53,890 --> 00:36:54,250
Speaker 2: Thank you.

691
00:36:59,090 --> 00:37:01,410
Speaker 1: For a full list of our sources, see the show

692
00:37:01,450 --> 00:37:08,130
Speaker 1: notes at Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales is written by

693
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:12,050
Speaker 1: me Tim Harfor with Andrew Wright, Alice Fines and Ryan Dilly.

694
00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:15,890
Speaker 1: It's produced by Alice Fines and Marilyn Rust. The sound

695
00:37:15,970 --> 00:37:19,330
Speaker 1: design and original music are the work of Pascal Wise.

696
00:37:19,690 --> 00:37:23,730
Speaker 1: Additional sound design is by Carlos San Juan at Brain Audio.

697
00:37:24,490 --> 00:37:28,450
Speaker 1: Bend A daf Haffrey edited the scripts. The show features

698
00:37:28,450 --> 00:37:32,490
Speaker 1: the voice talents of Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough,

699
00:37:32,770 --> 00:37:37,410
Speaker 1: Sarah Jupp, messaam Monroe, Jamal Westman, and rufus Wright. The

700
00:37:37,490 --> 00:37:40,290
Speaker 1: show also wouldn't have been possible without the work of

701
00:37:40,370 --> 00:37:45,090
Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohne, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody,

702
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:50,690
Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is

703
00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:54,970
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardore Studios

704
00:37:55,090 --> 00:37:58,570
Speaker 1: in London by Tom Berrin. If you like the show,

705
00:37:58,850 --> 00:38:01,970
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review. It really makes

706
00:38:02,010 --> 00:38:03,610
Speaker 1: a difference to us. And if you want to hear

707
00:38:03,610 --> 00:38:06,850
Speaker 1: the show ad free, the sign up to Pushkin Plus

708
00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:10,570
Speaker 1: on the show page on Apple Podcasts or Pushkin dot fm,

709
00:38:10,930 --> 00:38:11,930
Speaker 1: slash Plus